PDA

View Full Version : Why is Marcus Thomas not starting?



lex
09-26-2007, 01:36 AM
This was brought up in another thread but I wanted to present it so it could be more visible to others. A) Amon Gordon is THAT bad and B) Marcus Thomas isnt completely dominant but he has his moments and will likely only improve. So then, are the coaches just trying to put rookies in situations to optimize their success? Because, when you watch Gordon get shoved around it doesnt really seem like a luxury we can afford. Thomas needs to play to increase our chances of success. I think he can handle it. And if he gets winded then bring in someone else.

Tned
09-26-2007, 07:40 AM
This was brought up in another thread but I wanted to present it so it could be more visible to others. A) Amon Gordon is THAT bad and B) Marcus Thomas isnt completely dominant but he has his moments and will likely only improve. So then, are the coaches just trying to put rookies in situations to optimize their success? Because, when you watch Gordon get shoved around it doesnt really seem like a luxury we can afford. Thomas needs to play to increase our chances of success. I think he can handle it. And if he gets winded then bring in someone else.

I would imagine that it is simply that up to this point, the combination of reviewing game film and what they see in practice leads them to believe Gordon is a better option to start and are mixing Thomas in as part of their DT rotation.

Skinny
09-26-2007, 08:04 AM
He is a rookie and while playing well at times, he still is learning the game at the pro level.

Gordon has the experiance to stuff out some plays and is stronger at the point of attack and stronger at holding O-lineman up.

The season is still young though and he could very well still earn himself a starting role somewhere down the line.

It's all about performance.

And Bates may have the mind set to get out of Thomas all he can and a great way to do that is to make Thomas earn it (starter).

It's that 'drive' that makes good players great.

:2cents:

lex
09-26-2007, 10:38 AM
I would imagine that it is simply that up to this point, the combination of reviewing game film and what they see in practice leads them to believe Gordon is a better option to start and are mixing Thomas in as part of their DT rotation.


He is a rookie and while playing well at times, he still is learning the game at the pro level.

Gordon has the experiance to stuff out some plays and is stronger at the point of attack and stronger at holding O-lineman up.

The season is still young though and he could very well still earn himself a starting role somewhere down the line.

It's all about performance.

And Bates may have the mind set to get out of Thomas all he can and a great way to do that is to make Thomas earn it (starter).

It's that 'drive' that makes good players great.

:2cents:

I dont know about Gordon being stronger at the point of attack. Thomas has often been in when the defense is expecting a pass. I dont know if this distorts perception. But I go back to the Dallas game where Thomas held his ground in situations where Gordon was shoved around.

Lonestar
09-26-2007, 11:00 AM
You have to remember that he has not really played in the last 18 months until he came to camp. I suspect that Bates will play him as much as possible yet not break him.

I truly trust Bates, I'd not share that confidence in coyer.

TXBRONC
09-26-2007, 11:34 AM
You have to remember that he has not really played in the last 18 months until he came to camp. I suspect that Bates will play him as much as possible yet not break him.

I truly trust Bates, I'd not share that confidence in coyer.

I hope you get frustrated with here JR I think there are couple of things to keep in mind.

I don't think Thomas was inactive for a year and half prior to his drafting. He was suspended at some point during last season it might have been early in the season but still it would be more like about 7 months depending on when was kicked off the football team.

With that in mind he was there for all OTAs and training camp so I don't think his conditioning is at issue.

Besides that a few months back Bates said Thomas is on his own time table as when he starts. When he's ready he'll play.

Lonestar
09-26-2007, 11:49 AM
I hope you get frustrated with here JR I think there are couple of things to keep in mind.

I don't think Thomas was inactive for a year and half prior to his drafting. He was suspended at some point during last season it might have been early in the season but still it would be more like about 7 months depending on when was kicked off the football team.

With that in mind he was there for all OTAs and training camp so I don't think his conditioning is at issue.

Besides that a few months back Bates said Thomas is on his own time table as when he starts. When he's ready he'll play.

I was lead to believe that it was his junior season he was suspended. Now I could be wrong about that but not to have played most of the senior season and then just the broncos camps well that is a lot of football he missed out on.

I trust Bates to do the correct thing, I did not trust coyer any farther than I could throw him. A brilliant schemer, if he had all week to design something but making changes on the fly not his forte. he was Mikey's lapdog on defense someone that would not cause waves like the guy he replaced.

Bates has been there and done that in two different cities. I will abide by what ever his decisions are made.

So I did not make myself clear before ;)

omac
09-26-2007, 12:00 PM
I was lead to believe that it was his junior season he was suspended. Now I could be wrong about that but not to have played most of the senior season and then just the broncos camps well that is a lot of football he missed out on.

I trust Bates to do the correct thing, I did not trust coyer any farther than I could throw him. A brilliant schemer, if he had all week to design something but making changes on the fly not his forte. he was Mikey's lapdog on defense someone that would not cause waves like the guy he replaced.

Bates has been there and done that in two different cities. I will abide by what ever his decisions are made.

So I did not make myself clear before ;)

I watched him play a game in the early part of his senior season, I think it was either LSU or Auburn, can't remember.

But anyway, I agree with you, he's probably not yet in "game" shape yet, and their bringing him along slowly.

Lonestar
09-26-2007, 12:02 PM
I watched him play a game in the early part of his senior season, I think it was either LSU or Auburn, can't remember.

But anyway, I agree with you, he's probably not yet in "game" shape yet, and their bringing him along slowly.

Thanks, I had heard he missed his entire senior season thinking the rules did not apply to him.

Skinny
09-26-2007, 12:07 PM
:
I dont know about Gordon being stronger at the point of attack. Thomas has often been in when the defense is expecting a pass. I dont know if this distorts perception. But I go back to the Dallas game where Thomas held his ground in situations where Gordon was shoved around.Yeah Gordon has been shoved around. The thing is though, the WHOLE D-line has been getting shoved around.

Thomas included.

Yeah Thomas is in more on passing downs because he's seems to get better penetration up the middle. And it may very well be that Bates keeps Thomas on the side lines in running downs to keep him fresh on passing downs.

But if Thomas was holding ground better than Gordon on a consistant basis, i would'nt see why Thomas would'nt be starting.

Unless it was for the specific reason for passing downs. :whoknows:

omac
09-26-2007, 12:15 PM
Thanks, I had heard he missed his entire senior season thinking the rules did not apply to him.

Your welcome. From what I heard, he was already on some form of probation by the coach (or university?), and he had to follow certain rules imposed on him. He disobeyed one, probably thinking it was no big deal, and it was enough for the coach to kick him off the team. If not for that, he was projected to be a first rounder in the NFL draft.

Tned
09-26-2007, 12:17 PM
I dont know about Gordon being stronger at the point of attack. Thomas has often been in when the defense is expecting a pass. I dont know if this distorts perception. But I go back to the Dallas game where Thomas held his ground in situations where Gordon was shoved around.

I didn't give a specific reason, more that the coaches are going to make the call based on what they see in game filme and practice. They are going to put in the guy they think gives them the best chance to win, ESPECIALLY considering the loss they just took and their run defense ranking.

Tned
09-26-2007, 12:21 PM
Your welcome. From what I heard, he was already on some form of probation by the coach (or university?), and he had to follow certain rules imposed on him. He disobeyed one, probably thinking it was no big deal, and it was enough for the coach to kick him off the team. If not for that, he was projected to be a first rounder in the NFL draft.

I think he only played two games his senior season and then was kicked off the team and couldn't practice with them, participate in the Pro days or anything.

As I understand/remember from around draft day.

He was caught/tested positive for smoking dope. He was suspended for one or two games, and had to go in front of the athletic board or university board and plead his case. He signed an agreement they put in front of him to stay on the team, which I believe requred he go to AA/NA type meetings and could not go to his hometown of Jacksonville, FL (I think that was the town) as they felt his old friends were a bad influence. He signed and agreed to it. He blew off the agreement and coaches orders and went to Jacksonville (or wherever) and they kicked him off the team.

Shanahan claims to have had talks with him prior to the draft and believed that Thomas truely realized he was wrong and learned from the experience and was focused on getting his life back on track.

So, the guy did go a long time without playing a game, or being allowed to practice with the team, which probably left him a long way from game shap when training camp and even the season started.

Lonestar
09-26-2007, 12:26 PM
Your welcome. From what I heard, he was already on some form of probation by the coach (or university?), and he had to follow certain rules imposed on him. He disobeyed one, probably thinking it was no big deal, and it was enough for the coach to kick him off the team. If not for that, he was projected to be a first rounder in the NFL draft.

I had heard this started during his junior year. Had some time off then and when he went on "probation" it was some "mickey Mouse" rule to him but a serious one to the coach.

It sounded to me that his ego got in the ego of common sense.

Perhaps he has learned his lesson.

And then of course perhaps Bates is now reinforcing the idea that he is in charge. If told to jump he asks how high on the way down.

I suspect that him and Gordon are pretty much a toss up on who is better at this moment but Bates is trying to make him hungry enough to do what he is told.

Lonestar
09-26-2007, 12:28 PM
I think he only played two games his senior season and then was kicked off the team and couldn't practice with them, participate in the Pro days or anything.

As I understand/remember from around draft day.

He was caught/tested positive for smoking dope. He was suspended for one or two games, and had to go in front of the athletic board or university board and plead his case. He signed an agreement they put in front of him to stay on the team, which I believe requred he go to AA/NA type meetings and could not go to his hometown of Jacksonville, FL (I think that was the town) as they felt his old friends were a bad influence. He signed and agreed to it. He blew off the agreement and coaches orders and went to Jacksonville (or wherever) and they kicked him off the team.

Shanahan claims to have had talks with him prior to the draft and believed that Thomas truely realized he was wrong and learned from the experience and was focused on getting his life back on track.

So, the guy did go a long time without playing a game, or being allowed to practice with the team, which probably left him a long way from game shap when training camp and even the season started.

Again I think I also heard he had been in minor trouble the Junior year also.

Thanks for the update where are those high fives when you need them?

Joel
09-27-2007, 07:52 AM
To be honest, I think Thomas isn't starting because he's a rookie, and he's the same type of DT that we CUT in Warren and Thomas; the difference is they were bigger and drafted higher. Sad to say, after all was said and done in the off season, Burton and Gordon were the closest thing we had to the kind of clogging DTs Bates seems to want, and how far away they are shows clearly in our run stats (I like Adams, but he's not young and just got to Denver; expecting him to be an every down player is an insane). As to why we spent a top draft pick on another DT in the same mold as Warren, and traded next years 6th rounder for a guy who never played a regular season down for us, no, I don't know what they were thinking either....

TXBRONC
09-27-2007, 12:49 PM
To be honest, I think Thomas isn't starting because he's a rookie, and he's the same type of DT that we CUT in Warren and Thomas; the difference is they were bigger and drafted higher. Sad to say, after all was said and done in the off season, Burton and Gordon were the closest thing we had to the kind of clogging DTs Bates seems to want, and how far away they are shows clearly in our run stats (I like Adams, but he's not young and just got to Denver; expecting him to be an every down player is an insane). As to why we spent a top draft pick on another DT in the same mold as Warren, and traded next years 6th rounder for a guy who never played a regular season down for us, no, I don't know what they were thinking either....


Well all I can say if they didn't think Thomas was good fit I don't think they would have taken the time to move up several spots in the 4th round to get him.

topscribe
09-27-2007, 01:00 PM
To be honest, I think Thomas isn't starting because he's a rookie, and he's the same type of DT that we CUT in Warren and Thomas; the difference is they were bigger and drafted higher. Sad to say, after all was said and done in the off season, Burton and Gordon were the closest thing we had to the kind of clogging DTs Bates seems to want, and how far away they are shows clearly in our run stats (I like Adams, but he's not young and just got to Denver; expecting him to be an every down player is an insane). As to why we spent a top draft pick on another DT in the same mold as Warren, and traded next years 6th rounder for a guy who never played a regular season down for us, no, I don't know what they were thinking either....

Well, I know what they were thinking. They were thinking, here's a guy who
it was consensus that he's a high first-round talent and well worth gambling
a couple picks for, especially when what was available for those picks may
well not make the team, anyway. And Thomas is now proving that it was a
very good move. And it is a very good thing he is "in the same mold" as
Warren, who is an incredible talent himself. They just don't want Thomas to
be in the same attitude as Warren, taking plays off, a prima donna. Which
Thomas is also showing he is not.

Thomas' only drawbacks are what has already been pointed out here: He is
rusty and inexperienced . . . both which can be cured by just playing. Bates
has said he sees a Pro Bowler in Thomas. And I'm sure Bates has seen a lot
of linemen in his day.

-----

TXBRONC
09-27-2007, 01:20 PM
Well, I know what they were thinking. They were thinking, here's a guy who
it was consensus that he's a high first-round talent and well worth gambling
a couple picks for, especially when what was available for those picks may
well not make the team, anyway. And Thomas is now proving that it was a
very good move. And it is a very good thing he is "in the same mold" as
Warren, who is an incredible talent himself. They just don't want Thomas to
be in the same attitude as Warren, taking plays off, a prima donna. Which
Thomas is also showing he is not.

Thomas' only drawbacks are what has already been pointed out here: He is
rusty and inexperienced . . . both which can be cured by just playing. Bates
has said he sees a Pro Bowler in Thomas. And I'm sure Bates has seen a lot
of linemen in his day.
-----

I know I have liked what I have seen in him. It's almost hard to believe that a man that big can be as athletic as he is.

Requiem / The Dagda
09-27-2007, 01:29 PM
Three technique, one gap explosive players can work in Bates' defense. That's what Thomas is. Coach Dean was right on his assessment of the defensive line here. We all thought it was a strict two-gap scheme, but that's not necessarily the case. It comes down to semantics, but Bates is on record saying that they need guys who can get into gaps and penetrate into the backfield. Thomas is around 300 pounds. I've seen as low as 296 and as high as 315 - I'm assuming he's somewhere in the middle. Having big size is a plus in this defense, but the tackles have to be quick off the snap and they need to get to their assignments. So far from what I've seen, Thomas is struggling a little bit in this department. Thomas has made a couple of tackles and had that interception, but he could do a lot better. It'll come in time. He's rusty. Also, he's playing a position where it's really hard to transition to, and I don't think a lot of people understand that.

Thomas was regarded as a top talent before character issues and getting dismissed from Florida hurt is stock. I've heard a lot of sides to the story from people who are enthusiasts like me (draft) and people who actually were at Mobile and Indianapolis. I think Thomas sliding so far on draft day was an indication of what most teams thought of him, even including his talent. There were a lot of players with character issues on Day One (although they weren't dismissed) that still went on the first day, and even some in the first two rounds.

In reality to me, that's besides the point. So far, Thomas has proven to the team since he's been drafted that he can be a reliable person on the team. He needs to improve, but the kid as as talented as it gets (for the most part) for a defensive tackle. On a side note, even though Jarvis Moss only has one sack, I've been impressed by his play. He's made multiple TFL, and 7 of his 9 total tackles are individual. He forced a fumble, and I think he's really progressing. If the interior of our line got more push at the LOS, I think we'd see better results from him.

I'm anxious for Tim to get out there to show what he can do. Even if we struggle this season, one of the things to look forward to is that our lineman got some quality playing time, and that we hopefully see progressions.

topscribe
09-27-2007, 03:00 PM
Three technique, one gap explosive players can work in Bates' defense. That's what Thomas is. Coach Dean was right on his assessment of the defensive line here. We all thought it was a strict two-gap scheme, but that's not necessarily the case. It comes down to semantics, but Bates is on record saying that they need guys who can get into gaps and penetrate into the backfield. Thomas is around 300 pounds. I've seen as low as 296 and as high as 315 - I'm assuming he's somewhere in the middle. Having big size is a plus in this defense, but the tackles have to be quick off the snap and they need to get to their assignments. So far from what I've seen, Thomas is struggling a little bit in this department. Thomas has made a couple of tackles and had that interception, but he could do a lot better. It'll come in time. He's rusty. Also, he's playing a position where it's really hard to transition to, and I don't think a lot of people understand that.

Thomas was regarded as a top talent before character issues and getting dismissed from Florida hurt is stock. I've heard a lot of sides to the story from people who are enthusiasts like me (draft) and people who actually were at Mobile and Indianapolis. I think Thomas sliding so far on draft day was an indication of what most teams thought of him, even including his talent. There were a lot of players with character issues on Day One (although they weren't dismissed) that still went on the first day, and even some in the first two rounds.

In reality to me, that's besides the point. So far, Thomas has proven to the team since he's been drafted that he can be a reliable person on the team. He needs to improve, but the kid as as talented as it gets (for the most part) for a defensive tackle. On a side note, even though Jarvis Moss only has one sack, I've been impressed by his play. He's made multiple TFL, and 7 of his 9 total tackles are individual. He forced a fumble, and I think he's really progressing. If the interior of our line got more push at the LOS, I think we'd see better results from him.

I'm anxious for Tim to get out there to show what he can do. Even if we struggle this season, one of the things to look forward to is that our lineman got some quality playing time, and that we hopefully see progressions.

Very nice analysis. Thank you.

You described what I saw in Warren. When he was really fired up, Warren
could live in the opposing team's backfield. Problem was, he was not fired
up all the time, or even very often, it seemed. I don't see that problem with
Thomas at this stage. As you indicated, he needs experience. I can see
how it would be difficult to adapt to the speed of the pro game when he
had been away from the college game for so long.

But maybe that's the case with all the kids in there, outside Adams (who is
not kid :laugh: ). They are all young, not a whole lot of experience at the
position on this level of the pro game, and trying to learn Bates' system, too.
Maybe they will eventually surprise us and jell into a pretty good outfit?

-----

lex
09-27-2007, 08:11 PM
Yeah, drafting Thomas was not a mistake. If a player like that is available that late, you make the move to get him. When Denver moved up to get him, I felt like I had won the lotto. Ive been a Gators fan for as long as Ive been following college football and while Warren was a talented lineman, I thought Thomas was better. I feel like Thomas was more disruptive. I agree about it taking time to learn the position. The players across from him make a living by being technicians. Youre throwing a raw talent into one on one battles against crafty vets with talent and technical savvy. It will take him time to A) get back to what he was because what you saw at Florida was a guy who was four years into his career playing at that level functioning with enough knowldedge of college nuances that it provided him a comfort level, and B) to improve on where he was last year at Florida.

So far, I see flashes. Which is to be expected. I think with Moss, he is better in small doses at this point. But I think its the opposite with Thomas. I think he is more like a running back who gets better as the game goes on. A lot of his big plays at Florida were back breakers that came about when things were approaching a crescendo.

Requiem / The Dagda
09-27-2007, 11:37 PM
Very nice analysis. Thank you.

You described what I saw in Warren. When he was really fired up, Warren
could live in the opposing team's backfield. Problem was, he was not fired
up all the time, or even very often, it seemed. I don't see that problem with
Thomas at this stage. As you indicated, he needs experience. I can see
how it would be difficult to adapt to the speed of the pro game when he
had been away from the college game for so long.

But maybe that's the case with all the kids in there, outside Adams (who is
not kid :laugh: ). They are all young, not a whole lot of experience at the
position on this level of the pro game, and trying to learn Bates' system, too.
Maybe they will eventually surprise us and jell into a pretty good outfit?

-----

Anything is possible, but Burton and Gordon are street trash that probably wouldn't make most other teams in the league. Denver needs a complete overhaul on the interior of the defensive line. As much as I'd love to get another young defensive tackle, we just need experience there to do what Bates wants to do.

I think Thomas will do fine in Denver, I don't know if he'll ever be an elite player at his position, but I think he'll be a good one. Defensive tackle has always been a position on the team where we haven't had much strength. A lot of rotating bodies for the past decade, more so in the past five years.

A year under the belts of these rookie lineman will serve them well. As I mentioned when Dumervil was drafted, he'd be step on in a three step process. So whatever happens in the draft or free agency is likely going to be "it" for a while at the position. I think it may be another year or two before we see the bulging results (sacks, production, etc.) that everyone has been wanting for so long.

dogfish
09-28-2007, 12:41 AM
i think most of the salient points have already been covered, but there's one thing i haven't seen mentioned so far. . . one knock on thomas coming out was that he lacked base strength and would probably need some serious work in an NFL weight room before reaching his true potential-- he only put up 26 reps on the bench at the combine, and while i think that stat gets overrated (it's not close to an accurate indicator of everything an NFL DT has to do), it still gives us some measure of where he's at strength-wise compared to other young players at his position. . .

i think he's doing fine so far, but he may not start this year-- OR, he may be pressed into the starting lineup due to our pitiful lack of other decent options at the position, but even then it may be considerably later in the season. . . it's really not that common to see rookie DTs make a big impact, though of course it obviously does happen periodically. . . look at how well bunkley is playing after not doing squat as a rookie-- one offseason to hit the weight room and work on his technique has made a night and day difference. . . i think we could well see thomas' development folow a similar path. . .

personally, i wouldn't mind seeing him get a chance to start sooner rather than later, just because of how generally unhappy i am with the play of our DTs. . . but i trust bates to make the right decision. . . i do think we're likely to see more of thomas this week, as he matches up well against indy's offense-- especially with the no-huddle. . .

TXBRONC
09-28-2007, 11:25 AM
i think most of the salient points have already been covered, but there's one thing i haven't seen mentioned so far. . . one knock on thomas coming out was that he lacked base strength and would probably need some serious work in an NFL weight room before reaching his true potential-- he only put up 26 reps on the bench at the combine, and while i think that stat gets overrated (it's not close to an accurate indicator of everything an NFL DT has to do), it still gives us some measure of where he's at strength-wise compared to other young players at his position. . .

i think he's doing fine so far, but he may not start this year-- OR, he may be pressed into the starting lineup due to our pitiful lack of other decent options at the position, but even then it may be considerably later in the season. . . it's really not that common to see rookie DTs make a big impact, though of course it obviously does happen periodically. . . look at how well bunkley is playing after not doing squat as a rookie-- one offseason to hit the weight room and work on his technique has made a night and day difference. . . i think we could well see thomas' development folow a similar path. . .

personally, i wouldn't mind seeing him get a chance to start sooner rather than later, just because of how generally unhappy i am with the play of our DTs. . . but i trust bates to make the right decision. . . i do think we're likely to see more of thomas this week, as he matches up well against indy's offense-- especially with the no-huddle. . .


I think I remember hearing that Thomas' upper body strength need some work, but also remember reading (or at least I think I read it) that he have very good lower body strength.

Retired_Member_001
09-29-2007, 06:10 PM
I'd like to see more of Simeon Rice. We all know what he is capable of, even at this age. The only reason the Bucs cut Simeon Rice is because they drafted Gaines Adams, who could turn out to be just as good as a Simeon Rice. Simeon Rice can make big plays and I think he's going to do a pretty good job. He came here to win, it's his last chance, I think he's motivated.

I think Simeon will help against the run (he's better than Engleberger) and with pass rushing.

The good thing is we WILL see Simeon Rice starting against the Colts.

As for the Amon Gordon V Marcus Thomas battle, my opinion is, you have to give Marcus Thomas a chance. Amon Gordon will never be an elite DT or even a good one, we might aswell give someone who has the potential to be one, some playing time. I don't think Marcus Thomas should be starting, but I'd like to see us have him playing slightly more, just to see what he can do. There's always McKinley as another option aswell.

Just my opinion.

lex
11-13-2007, 08:46 PM
I dont know about Gordon being stronger at the point of attack. Thomas has often been in when the defense is expecting a pass. I dont know if this distorts perception. But I go back to the Dallas game where Thomas held his ground in situations where Gordon was shoved around.

Just to toot my own horn. Gordon didnt do squat.

broncosinindy
11-13-2007, 10:25 PM
Just to toot my own horn. Gordon didnt do squat.

----------TOOT TOOT------------:listen:

TXBRONC
11-14-2007, 08:22 AM
Just to toot my own horn. Gordon didnt do squat.


There is asymphony out there then because a lot people thought he was going get cut in camp.

lex
11-14-2007, 10:02 AM
There symphony out there then because a lot people thought he was going get cut in camp.

Im not sure Im with you but I was actually referring to my criticism of Gordon who has been cut but was once starting more than I am Thomas.

TXBRONC
11-14-2007, 12:25 PM
Im not sure Im with you but I was actually referring to my criticism of Gordon who has been cut but was once starting more than I am Thomas.

I'm saying you're not alone, there are several people that thought he wouldn't make the final cut of camp.