Denver pursuing a DL via trade

[DenBronx]

I dont know about a 4th but a 5th wouldnt sound bad to me.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=NFL&id=1470

Broncos beat writer Mike Klis suggests that the team could make a play for Rams DE Leonard Little before the Oct. 14 trade deadline.

Klis says he's "sure (the Broncos) have held at least cursory discussions" about a deal. If the Rams were actually capable of using it wisely, they would be silly to not consider moving Little for a third- or fourth-round pick.
Source: Denver Post

[denbroncofan26]

This would be a good move for a fifth maybe a fourth rounder. We desperately need another D-lineman who can break through the pocket. In 2008 so far Little has 2 sacks in 2 games played. Anyone know why he hasnt played all four games?

The only problem I have is he is 33 gonna be 34 and has been injured recently...

[LoyalSoldier]

This would be (hopefully) a solid pick up. If we at least get someone else for the defense to pay attention to then it would help Dumervile a lot. He is getting doubled like nothing else.

[BroncoWave]

I would be TOTALLY for this! I just hope it doesn't turn out to be another Simeon Rice disaster.

[weazel]

it might be a start... isnt going to turn things around though

[WARHORSE]

I'll take Little at this point. For a fifth........deal.

[BCJ]

First, the writer thinks they have talked about Little in their own circle. Check out the link and go down about questions to actually see the printed quote. http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_10593058 Rotoworld has it wrong! Personally, I think it is this guy wanting to make a story. Bring him in? Hell no! Dude kills a woman for drinking and driving and then gets pulled over again for DUI (later dropped probably on a tech.). We have had enough bad apples on this team (Henry) and I would be one pissed off Broncos fan. Keep this murderer in St. Louis!

[denbroncofan26]

First, the writer thinks they have talked about Little in their own circle. Personally, I think it is this guy wanting to make a story. Bring him in? Hell no! Dude kills a woman for drinking and driving and then gets pulled over again for DUI (later dropped probably on a tech.). We have had enough bad apples on this team (Henry) and I would be one pissed off Broncos fan. Keep this murderer in St. Louis!

I was unaware of his off the field issues. I have always liked the Broncos because of the players who are class acts not the opposite (Marshall, Henry, etc..) Now I would say we shouldn't get this guy. Our team needs players who can make plays but not at the expense of bringing in a player who will create headaches for his off the field problems

[Magnificent Seven]

They should have trade someone for Jason Taylor before Redskins get him.

[DenBronx]

make it a conditional 5th rounder and i say go for it. we need to put pressure on guys like rivers. i dont see us beating any top tier teams in the playoffs without pressure. this will help dume alot! this guy will help us get off the field!

the dude has around 63 sacks in the last 7 years and thats with being injured last year and only 4 games into the season this year. i remember him manhandling us a couple of years back. anyone remember that? we severely need help on d. this could be a neil smith type situation where it really helps turn our defense around.

anyone know if he is more suited for the 3-4 or 4-3 or both???

[dogfish]

Anyone know why he hasnt played all four games?



last year he tried to play through a foot injury (broken bone i believe), and it just didn't work-- he was ineffective, and had to shut it down mid-season. . . . he was reportedly healthy and playing great in training camp, but he pulled a hamstring either at the end of camp or during the preseason, which has mostly kept him out up to this point. . . he obviously abused buffalo's quality tackles, so i'm guessing that he's healthy now and still has something in the tank. . .






anyone know if he is more suited for the 3-4 or 4-3 or both???

he's a pure 4-3 RDE by size and skillset, although he actually played LDE for the better part of his career-- he's been on the right side the past few years, although they like to move him around the line to find the best matchups-- he has plenty of experience at either side, and has been effective from both. . . with his skillset i suppose you could project him to OLB in a 3-4, but that's nothing but pure speculation-- he's played the 4-3 his entire career, and moving him at this point would probably be retarded. . .


the rams are already done for the year, so moving him would make a lot of sense-- they're in full-on rebuilding mode, and he's too old to be any part of their long-term plans. . . anything they can get for him would be a bonus. . . IF they're actually interested in trading him, i would do it in a heartbeat. . . with a wide-open AFC this year, i don't know when we'll get a better chance to make a run-- little's not a guy that will make this awful efense respectable all by himself (no single mortal could do that, other than MAYBE reggie white in his prime), but an upgrade to the pass rush could be a big boost to a team that's going to have to win shootouts, and his presence just might have a domino effect on our other DLs. . . little was part of a highly underrated rams supre bowl defense, and those kind of guys are always nice to have around. . . i'd float a conditional 5th that could upgrade to a 4th based on performance, and see what they think. . .

[Bronco Bible]

I was unaware of his off the field issues. I have always liked the Broncos because of the players who are class acts not the opposite (Marshall, Henry, etc..) Now I would say we shouldn't get this guy. Our team needs players who can make plays but not at the expense of bringing in a player who will create headaches for his off the field problems

:beer: (sorry bad smilie to use):tsk:(better)?

[CrazyHorse]

How about Chris Long instead!
Howie and Al Davis don't get along so it's perfect.

[Mike]

No thank you. We do not need that type of guy in the locker room.

FTR, I think this is pure speculation from Klis.

[claymore]

No thank you. We do not need that type of guy in the locker room.

FTR, I think this is pure speculation from Klis.

I agree. And if the theme this year is character, what kind of message does this send?

[G_Money]

I prefer not to bring convicted murderers onto my team if I can help it.

We CAN help it, so no thanks.

~G

[Requiem / The Dagda]

God no. For a third or fourth rounder? Absolutely not. This would be as stupid as the trade we did with the Rams to get whats his butt (Kennedy?) who didn't even make the team and we still gave up that sixth for him.

[ApaOps5]

The dude killed a woman in a DUI accident. Guy can take a long walk off a short ledge. But thats Denver's MO. They either bring in superior upstanding citizens or they swing for the fences on project players and go for the extremely bad apples. Case in point Maurice, Grey Goose, Clarette and now Travis, I tote the Rock, Henry.

[Fan in Exile]

I am completely against this. I would hate having Little on the team.

[underrated29]

i dont understand why little. Yeah he is/was good, and the rams season is over, but arent there better/younger guys out there who would be worth trading for?

[anton...]

what kind of message does this send?

winning football games matters...

[HolyDiver]

This would be a good move for a fifth maybe a fourth rounder. We desperately need another D-lineman who can break through the pocket. In 2008 so far Little has 2 sacks in 2 games played. Anyone know why he hasnt played all four games?

The only problem I have is he is 33 gonna be 34 and has been injured recently...

Yeah, too old for us to be considering.

[turftoad]

I don't want him either. Just what we need is another old cast off from another team. Not!

[CoachChaz]

Considering the options available to us, I'd take him. He's still a better pass rusher than anything we've shown in 4 games. As far as his character issues go...I'm shocked to hear so many Marshall supporters talk trash about this dude.

[Northman]

First, the writer thinks they have talked about Little in their own circle. Check out the link and go down about questions to actually see the printed quote. http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_10593058 Rotoworld has it wrong! Personally, I think it is this guy wanting to make a story. Bring him in? Hell no! Dude kills a woman for drinking and driving and then gets pulled over again for DUI (later dropped probably on a tech.). We have had enough bad apples on this team (Henry) and I would be one pissed off Broncos fan. Keep this murderer in St. Louis!

Yea, if we are turning our franchise around as far as character type guys are concerned then it should be a NO to Little. Now, if they want to give us Chris Long for a 5th (haha) than i would be all for it. :D

[TheRecession]

Bringing in Little would not change anything on this team. The cornerbacks are playing scared.

[turftoad]

Bringing in Little would not change anything on this team. The cornerbacks are playing scared.

The corners can't cover WR's all day long, no matter how good they are. We need to get pressure on the QB to cut down on the time the CB's have to cover.
Still, I don't think Little is the answer. I suppose maybe for a 5-6th he may be a one year fill in.

[CoachChaz]

The corners can't cover WR's all day long, no matter how good they are. We need to get pressure on the QB to cut down on the time the CB's have to cover.
Still, I don't think Little is the answer. I suppose maybe for a 5-6th he may be a one year fill in.

I dont think they are looking at him to be an answer so much as they are simply looking for someone that can get ANY pressure on the QB.

[TheRecession]

The corners can't cover WR's all day long, no matter how good they are. We need to get pressure on the QB to cut down on the time the CB's have to cover.
Still, I don't think Little is the answer. I suppose maybe for a 5-6th he may be a one year fill in.

Do you think jamming and knocking WR's off there routes would give the pass rush a little extra time to get to the QB?

[turftoad]

Do you think jamming and knocking WR's off there routes would give the pass rush a little extra time to get to the QB?

I'm sure it would help.

Do you think that all the sudden Champ is a chump?

[TheRecession]

I'm sure it would help.

Do you think that all the sudden Champ is a chump?

No. And that is why we should be in the WR face playing bump and run. However we continue to play zone with the corners 15 yards off the WR.

[tubby]

Leonard Little rules.

[broncobryce]

I wouldn't do it. Just because we started off hot, this is not our year. We might win the division, but we probably lose round 1 in the playoffs. I am fine with that. We are a very young team, and we need to keep building, not bring in old washed up DE's who fit's his name. I want to win as much as anyone else, but wasting a pick (we got Marshall in the 4th remember?) for a guy who MIGHT help us is not a good thing right now, we're not THAT close.

[Buff]

This is when the media pisses me off... One reporter throws a name out there of a player who could, possibly, be available via trade... And then all of the sudden someone picks up on that and says we're in talks about a trade. Having read Klis' article, it was clear that it was all speculation on his part and not based on any inside information...

All that being said, Little would be an upgrade over all the DE's we currently have on our roster. But, the dude's a loser character wise, and I would be shocked if they brought him in.

[Kaylore]

I'm inclined to believe this is bogus. Klis floats the idea that he "thinks" they've thought about it and now that's turned into "they are in talks with the rams" magically?

[turftoad]

No. And that is why we should be in the WR face playing bump and run. However we continue to play zone with the corners 15 yards off the WR.

Agreed, that said, it's not the CB's but the scheme if I hear you right.

[TheRecession]

Agreed, that said, it's not the CB's but the scheme if I hear you right.

I am really confused on who to blame at this point. I am reading around and some posters are saying that Champ would rather play 10 yards off along with the zone coverage.

[DenBronx]

i'd trade a 3rd to the falcons for john abraham.

[DenBronx]

here's the story on little's dui for anyone that's interested.



http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20040425/news_1s25briefs.html

Little faces DUI charge six years after fatal crash

UNION-TRIBUNE NEWS SERVICES

April 25, 2004

Rams defensive end Leonard Little was arrested yesterday in the St. Louis suburb of Ladue, Mo., and charged with driving while intoxicated. In a 1998 fatal accident, he was driving drunk and pleaded guilty to involuntary manslaughter.



Advertisement Little was arrested shortly before 4 a.m. for a speeding violation on Interstate 64, police said, and was booked and released after being issued two traffic summons.
A June 9 court appearance has been scheduled, according to Little's attorney, Scott Rosenbloom. Rosenbloom said he still was reviewing particulars of the latest matter.

He said Little has not been in trouble with the law since the fatal crash.

Little was suspended for the first eight games of the 1999 season after pleading guilty to involuntary manslaughter in a June 1998 crash that killed Susan Gutweiler of Oakville, Mo. Little was sentenced to 90 days in the city workhouse and four years of probation.

[hamrob]

The Rams have both Carriker and Long...two recent number 1's...so it makes some sense to get what they can for little now. I wouldn't give more than a 4th for him.

[TheRecession]

The Rams currently have Carriker playing Nose Tackle.

[Retired_Member_001]

I hope he doesn't turn into this years Simeon Rice.

[Shazam!]

Jesus. They need a LOT more than this guy to improve the DL.

I agree with whoever said Jason Taylor. That's what they needed to get done, a marquee impact player like that would've bought instant credibility.

The DL is a joke, and LL wouldn't make an improvement IMO.

[dogfish]

Jesus. They need a LOT more than this guy to improve the DL.

I agree with whoever said Jason Taylor. That's what they needed to get done, a marquee impact player like that would've bought instant credibility.




and would have cost us a 2nd round pick for a one-year rental. . . who, BTW, has been dinged up most of this year, is now out with an injury, and had half as many sacks in three games as little had last week. . .


besides, performance on the field is what brings credibility, not adding big-name players-- if taylor had come here and done what he's done in washington, he wouldn't have brought squat, and would have cost us WAY too much. . . it's a sad day when broncos fans are wishing we ran our team the way dan snyder does!

[LRtagger]

and would have cost us a 2nd round pick for a one-year rental. . . who, BTW, has been dinged up most of this year, is now out with an injury, and had half as many sacks in three games as little had last week. . .


besides, performance on the field is what brings credibility, not adding big-name players-- if taylor had come here and done what he's done in washington, he wouldn't have brought squat, and would have cost us WAY too much. . . it's a sad day when broncos fans are wishing we ran our team the way dan snyder does!


Exactly....just because Jason Taylor is a household name for most football fans doesn't mean he is the best option for us. If you have kept up with what he has done in Washington this year, this board would be calling for his head if he were a Bronco.

[DenBronx]

little will cost half of what taylor is getting and a late round pick. he's not really injury prone and plays at a high level. i dont see little as a one year rental but more so 3 or 4 years. moss, ekuban, crowder and engleberger really are not doing anything at all...

[Denver27og]

No. And that is why we should be in the WR face playing bump and run. However we continue to play zone with the corners 15 yards off the WR.

we have been running that BS zone WAYYYY to much for alot of years.... talent wise i think we could almost hang with the best of em.... i think its more of our playcalling and schemes.... we should of tried harder for guys like Kris Jenkins... shaun rogers... why waste a 4th round pick on someone that has the offfield issues and is 34?????????

[Denver27og]

i'd trade a 3rd to the falcons for john abraham.

yea we tried hard to get abraham back when he was leaving the jets.... he didnt want to play in denver

[BroncoNut]

yea we tried hard to get abraham back when he was leaving the jets.... he didnt want to play in denver

I wonder why

[DenBronx]

yea we tried hard to get abraham back when he was leaving the jets.... he didnt want to play in denver


i hope he gets his leg snapped then....

[DenBronx]

we have been running that BS zone WAYYYY to much for alot of years.... talent wise i think we could almost hang with the best of em.... i think its more of our playcalling and schemes.... we should of tried harder for guys like Kris Jenkins... shaun rogers... why waste a 4th round pick on someone that has the offfield issues and is 34?????????

even tank johnson last year. he was banned for a few games but that would have really gave us a surge down the stretch and he would have made a huge impact this year. we have to stop passing up good dt's and de's.

[broncobryce]

yea we tried hard to get abraham back when he was leaving the jets.... he didnt want to play in denver

Are you sure he didn't want to play here? I thought he just got a better offer in atlanta.

[WARHORSE]

The Jets wanted a first round pick for him, not to mention Atlanta had the mula he was looking for. We swung the trade that gave Atlanta a lower first round pick to give em.................member?

[Broncogator]

After this HELL NO!!!!!
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/mike_fish/04/30/fish.little/index.html

It's a God Damn shame this guy continued to play after this happened....and then he got another DUI after his "first time drinking". What a bunch of B.S.

[jrelway]

After this HELL NO!!!!!
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/mike_fish/04/30/fish.little/index.html

It's a God Damn shame this guy continued to play after this happened....and then he got another DUI after his "first time drinking". What a bunch of B.S.

i cant believe this rat basstard drove drunk again after what he did. mostly everyone drives intoxicated a few times in their lives, but if i killed someone while driving impaired, id probably quit drinking. i think we need to stay away from this guy. its trouble waiting to happen.

[gobroncsnv]

Makes you wonder how many decades he'd have been suspended under Goodell's regime...

[SmilinAssasSin27]

i cant believe this rat basstard drove drunk again after what he did. mostly everyone drives intoxicated a few times in their lives, but if i killed someone while driving impaired, id probably quit drinking. i think we need to stay away from this guy. its trouble waiting to happen.

Not disputing how wrong his actions were, but to deem him as "trouble waiting to happen" after he's had no issues in 4.5 years makes no sense to me.

[Broncogator]

Not disputing how wrong his actions were, but to deem him as "trouble waiting to happen" after he's had no issues in 4.5 years makes no sense to me.

But after you kill someone in a DUI accident why the hell would you ever get behind the wheel again when drinking?

[SmilinAssasSin27]

please re-read the first 7 words of my statement. The guy SHOULD be in prison. I have a guy on my caseload who did the same thing. BUT he ISN'T in prison and has had no problems in almost 5 years. I don't know him personally, but if he truly had a drinking problem and now doesn't...I can't say he's a "problem just waiting to happen."

[jrelway]

please re-read the first 7 words of my statement. The guy SHOULD be in prison. I have a guy on my caseload who did the same thing. BUT he ISN'T in prison and has had no problems in almost 5 years. I don't know him personally, but if he truly had a drinking problem and now doesn't...I can't say he's a "problem just waiting to happen."

you drink and drive, then kill someone in the process, then you do it again? thats a POS in my book. imagine if that was your wife he killed. 4-5 years trouble free my ass. he got behind the wheel again while intoxicated. aint no excuse for that. go re-evaluate what you said and come back.

[Broncogator]

I just don't like the guy, I live in the STL area and got more press than the rest of the country did. JR hit the nail on the head the guys a total POS...IMO

[broncofanatic1987]

It's baseless speculation that the Broncos have been in talks with the Rams.

They should try to get Little though. They need someone that can get pressure on the quarterback. Whatever it takes to improve the defense because the offense is ready to win now.

I always find it a bit funny when fans place a price tag on what they think is a fair trade. While I would be surprised if they were to give up a 1st or 2nd round pick, I really don't care what they give up in the future to make the team better now. I definitely wouldn't be surprised to see them give up a 3rd to get Little or someone else. Desperate times call for desperate measures and it is desperate times for the defense.

[gobroncsnv]

Well, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't go higher than a 3rd round, because we need to build with 1st and 2nd rounders. We have a bright future for this club as long as we don't mortgage it.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

you drink and drive, then kill someone in the process, then you do it again? thats a POS in my book. imagine if that was your wife he killed. 4-5 years trouble free my ass. he got behind the wheel again while intoxicated. aint no excuse for that. go re-evaluate what you said and come back.

No need to re-eval dude. I deal w/ this shit on a daily basis. I basis my opinions on experience. You apparently can't read or comprehend too well. I said he belongs in prison...but he's NOT. I never said I like the guy. I simply disagreed w/ him being a problem waiting to happen when during the past 4+ years there has been no evidence to support the comment. I base the 4+ years, not on your ass, but the article that was posted. Did you even take the time to read it or look at the date? If you have evidence of more recent DUIs, please show me and I'll be glasd to recant my statement.

BTW, I could care less if he plays here or not. He's on the wrong side of 30 and our problems are bigger than 1 DE.

[Superchop 7]

How big is Little ?

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Depends on who ya ask

[weazel]

How big is Little ?

he's a little bigger

[broncofaninfla]

Looks like Denver is getting serious about the 3/4. Check out this copy and paste from the Denver Post 10/08/08. Also note the mention of Moss yet again playing LB in the 3/4 set. Hopefully this guy can start earning his keep.

"Still, the reason teams don't make such a defensive alignment shift during the season is because the type of upfront 4-3 player has different strengths from a 3-4 player. The Broncos have been calling teams and agents seeking defensive linemen with bulk.

Such commodities, though, aren't easy to find in March, and they're impossibly scarce in October. Still, the 3-4 concept follows the Broncos' belief they have more quality linebackers than they do defensive linemen.

It's not often a team will dress seven linebackers and seven defensive linemen, as the Broncos did Sunday in a 16-13 victory against Tampa Bay. And Jarvis Moss would make eight — linebacker, that is — the next time he gets a game uniform."

:beer:

[TXBRONC]

Where did you get this from?

[Den21vsBal19]

Where did you get this from?
It's towards the bottom of this article (http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_10663239)

[broncofaninfla]

The Denver Post

[Fan in Exile]

I really don't know how much in favor of this I am, that means except if it works. If it works then I'm all for it.

[TXBRONC]

It's towards the bottom of this article (http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_10663239)


Thanks mate! :beer:

It just so happens that I was on the DP website just before coming back to this thread and low and behold I read the very article that the quote comes from.

[claymore]

As long as its not some has been 13 year vet for a 3rd rounder or something.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Darnell Dockett, plz.

[TXBRONC]

I really don't know how much in favor of this I am, that means except if it works. If it works then I'm all for it.

What I gather is that this not a change in base defense it just gives opposing offenses something else to think about. It's also not a true 3-4 because Robertson and Peterson play off center instead right on the nose.

The other thing to keep in mind is that at this point going to a 3-4 as the base is highly unlikely because we don't have all the right personel to run it. Also it as it was pointed out finding big beefy defensive lineman at the point in the season would be difficult if not impossible to find.

What I think we can take from this article is that next season might bring a change in base defense. As Champ pointed out the strength of the team is its linebacker.

[broncofaninfla]

What I gather is that this not a change in base defense it just gives opposing offenses something else to think about. It's also not a true 3-4 because Robertson and Peterson play off center instead right on the nose.

The other thing to keep in mind is that at this point going to a 3-4 as the base is highly unlikely because we don't have all the right personel to run it. Also it as it was pointed out finding big beefy defensive lineman at the point in the season would be difficult if not impossible to find.

What I think we can take from this article is that next season might bring a change in base defense. As Champ pointed out the strength of the team is it's linebackers core.

Good point. I keep racking my brain on who the Broncos might be targeting right now but keep coming up blank. Can anybody think of any teams that have an abundance of big guys on their roster right now or a need for a addtional draft pick next year?

[TXBRONC]

Good point. I keep racking my brain on who the Broncos might be targeting right now but keep coming up blank. Can anybody think of any teams that have an abundance of big guys on their roster right now or a need for a additional draft pick next year?

As the quote mentions the Broncos are investigating it by calling other teams but it sounds like they are coming up empty. The teams they have called may have them but they do not want to give them up or they don't have what we're looking for.

[broncofaninfla]

As the quote mentions the Broncos are investigating it by calling other teams but it sounds like they are coming up empty. The teams they have called may have them but they do not want to give them up or they don't have what we're looking for.


Or they are asking too much. I love the idea of upgrading talent where we desperatly need it but not at the price of comprising our ability to build in the draft next year. Hopefully we can get a deal with a quality jourenyman or up and coming young player.

[Buff]

Hell, I'd give up next year's first for a guy like Albert Haynseworth (assuming we could sign him to a long-term deal).... Not likely, but if it were to happen it'd probably be a guy like that that's been franchised or is in the last year of his deal.

[LRtagger]

Hell, I'd give up next year's first for a guy like Albert Haynseworth (assuming we could sign him to a long-term deal).... Not likely, but if it were to happen it'd probably be a guy like that that's been franchised or is in the last year of his deal.

No way Ten gives up Haynesworth even for a first. He is the backbone to not only their defense, but their entire team.

If they had a losing record right now they may give him up for a 1st and 3rd, but as they sit at 5-0 there is no way in hell they would give up the best player on their entire roster.

We would probably have to package a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd for them to even think about giving him up at this point in the season IMO.

[omac]

Hell, I'd give up next year's first for a guy like Albert Haynseworth (assuming we could sign him to a long-term deal).... Not likely, but if it were to happen it'd probably be a guy like that that's been franchised or is in the last year of his deal.

I don't like Haynesworth. Great talent when he decides he wants to play; underachieves when he doesn't. A Randy Moss type, no thanks.

[WARHORSE]

What I gather is that this not a change in base defense it just gives opposing offenses something else to think about. It's also not a true 3-4 because Robertson and Peterson play off center instead right on the nose.

The other thing to keep in mind is that at this point going to a 3-4 as the base is highly unlikely because we don't have all the right personel to run it. Also it as it was pointed out finding big beefy defensive lineman at the point in the season would be difficult if not impossible to find.

What I think we can take from this article is that next season might bring a change in base defense. As Champ pointed out the strength of the team is it's linebackers core.

I think we may very well change to a 3-4 base next year. 17 plays this past game in the first half alone?

Taylor Mays is number one on my wish list in the draft, and Mauluga is .001 behind. Mauluga would kill in the 3-4, hes built for it and though we wouldnt ask him to drop into coverage much, we would probably ask him to go hit the QB a heck of a whole lot.

[Buff]

No way Ten gives up Haynesworth even for a first. He is the backbone to not only their defense, but their entire team.

If they had a losing record right now they may give him up for a 1st and 3rd, but as they sit at 5-0 there is no way in hell they would give up the best player on their entire roster.

We would probably have to package a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd for them to even think about giving him up at this point in the season IMO.

I agree, it's highly unlikely as their defense lives and dies by his play-- However, the point I was trying to make it that our best chance to land real talent probably comes from a guy in the last year of his contract or a guy who's current team doesn't feel like they'll be able to resign him in the off-season.

If Tennessee were 0-5 it'd probably be alot more feasible... Which is one of the reasons it's so tough to try an pull off a trade mid-season... Most teams with marquee players need them for their own playoff run.

[Buff]

I don't like Haynesworth. Great talent when he decides he wants to play; underachieves when he doesn't. A Randy Moss type, no thanks.

That's pretty much the knock on every elite defensive tackle in the league...

[TXBRONC]

Hell, I'd give up next year's first for a guy like Albert Haynseworth (assuming we could sign him to a long-term deal).... Not likely, but if it were to happen it'd probably be a guy like that that's been franchised or is in the last year of his deal.

If the assumption is that Haynseworth would be the NT in a 3-4 alignment then no. First off, it would be equivalent of suicide to make that radical of a change in defensive scheme. Second, Haynseworth works in a 4-3 defense that allows him to attack in 3-4 he wouldn't get to do that. Third, I believe last year was Haynseworth's contract year and if I'm not mistaken they have already signed him to a long term deal. Considering how Titans are doing, and the fact they've already given him a new contract (I think) it would be a waste of time to even call them about Haynseworth's availability.

[WARHORSE]

I agree, it's highly unlikely as their defense lives and dies by his play-- However, the point I was trying to make it that our best chance to land real talent probably comes from a guy in the last year of his contract or a guy who's current team doesn't feel like they'll be able to resign him in the off-season.

If Tennessee were 0-5 it'd probably be alot more feasible... Which is one of the reasons it's so tough to try an pull off a trade mid-season... Most teams with marquee players need them for their own playoff run.


He wont be available this year, but he will in the offseason.

The scary part about it is, after you pay him, will he still play at that level? His character calls that into question, and when it comes to mega millions spent on players........its not a question worth putting your money on.

[TXBRONC]

He wont be available this year, but he will in the offseason.

The scary part about it is, after you pay him, will he still play at that level? His character calls that into question, and when it comes to mega millions spent on players........its not a question worth putting your money on.


I thought '07 was Haynseworth's contract year. :confused:

[CoachChaz]

He'll be franchised anyway. Great player, but never plays a full season.

[underrated29]

I believe the franchise tag. got him again.

[LRtagger]

IMO our best chance is going to be with the bottom of the barrel teams.

Detroit, St Louis, Seattle, Cincy, KC, Cleveland.

Unfortunately, most of the NFC teams besides Det and Stl still have a shot at making the playoffs. We all know how weak the teams outside of the East are. They can win their division with an 8-8 or 9-7 record. It will be tough for them to let key guys go this early in the season if they think they still may have a shot at getting into the playoffs.

As for the AFC teams, there arent really any tackles on those squads that would be of much help. I wouldnt mind having Frank Okam from Houston, but he is a rookie and another project player. He has the size and skill we could utilize, but he is not ready to play any kind of part in helping a defense get better. He just isnt polished.

I doubt STL would consider trading Carriker. There aren't really any other players anywhere else that I would consider. And the ones I would like, they don't have a chance of being traded away.

Go take a look back at my thread about DL free agents. We aren't going to see any blockbuster deals at this juncture, so I think that list of guys may be our only hope if we want to add DLmen right now.

[underrated29]

LOL- maybe we trade a 7th rounder to oakland for gerrard warren and the assurance that we will only beat them by 20 pts in our next meeting.

[TXBRONC]

LOL- maybe we trade a 7th rounder to oakland for gerrard warren and the assurance that we will only beat them by 20 pts in our next meeting.

Knowing the demented moron that is Al Davis he would want 1st pick for Warren.

[topscribe]

What I gather is that this not a change in base defense it just gives opposing offenses something else to think about. It's also not a true 3-4 because Robertson and Peterson play off center instead right on the nose.

The other thing to keep in mind is that at this point going to a 3-4 as the base is highly unlikely because we don't have all the right personel to run it. Also it as it was pointed out finding big beefy defensive lineman at the point in the season would be difficult if not impossible to find.

What I think we can take from this article is that next season might bring a change in base defense. As Champ pointed out the strength of the team is its linebacker.

It's beginnng to appear as if Slowik's scheme is to give the look of no
scheme? Shanny said they would be switching off occasionally to keep the
opposing offenses off-balance. As you noted, what they do is not a true
3-4, and I'm not sure they aspire to a true 3-4.

It would still take a great deal of change in personnel to go to a 3-4 as a
base defense, it would seem. Robertson, Thomas, and Peterson are shaping
up as stud DTs, but 4-3 DTs. The Broncos don't presently have enough
beef at DE for the 3-4. Their biggest DEs are Ekuban and Crowder at 275.
The others, Engelberger and Dumervil, are around 260.

But what they are doing ought to confuse some offenses . . . after they
get over confusing themselves. :laugh:

-----

[topscribe]

Knowing the demented moron that is Al Davis he would want 1st pick for Warren.

Davis has probably already given Warren a $60 million contract. :lol:

-----

[TXBRONC]

Davis has probably already given Warren a $60 million contract. :lol:

-----

I wouldn't doubt it. :laugh:

[TXBRONC]

It's beginnng to appear as if Slowik's scheme is to give the look of no
scheme? Shanny said they would be switching off occasionally to keep the
opposing offenses off-balance. As you noted, what they do is not a true
3-4, and I'm not sure they aspire to a true 3-4.

It would still take a great deal of change in personnel to go to a 3-4 as a
base defense, it would seem. Robertson, Thomas, and Peterson are shaping
up as stud DTs, but 4-3 DTs. The Broncos don't presently have enough
beef at DE for the 3-4. Their biggest DEs are Ekuban and Crowder at 275.
The others, Engelberger and Dumervil, are around 260.

But what they are doing ought to confuse some offenses . . . after they
get over confusing themselves. :laugh:

-----

Agreed if Denver decides to change to 3-4 as the base defense it wouldn't come until next season and that is a big if.

[silkamilkamonico]

If Denver makes the switch to a 3-4, we're basically starting all over again with the dline.

I for one don't like this talk. It makes it sound like Denver doesn't know w+h they are doing.

You're not going to stop any high powered offenses with a makeshift defense. I would have thought Shanahan would have been smart enough to figure that out.

I also don't like this idea of a trade. With the way Shanahan throws around mid level draft picks for unproven guys in hopes of them panning out, I can see us giving up a 3rd for some guy that not only doesn't work out, but probably gets cut in the offseason.

Build something Shanahan. You've done a great job on offense continue to do so on the defense. Don't throw it away.

[broncofaninfla]

If Denver makes the switch to a 3-4, we're basically starting all over again with the dline.

I for one don't like this talk. It makes it sound like Denver doesn't know w+h they are doing.

You're not going to stop any high powered offenses with a makeshift defense. I would have thought Shanahan would have been smart enough to figure that out.

I also don't like this idea of a trade. With the way Shanahan throws around mid level draft picks for unproven guys in hopes of them panning out, I can see us giving up a 3rd for some guy that not only doesn't work out, but probably gets cut in the offseason.

Build something Shanahan. You've done a great job on offense continue to do so on the defense. Don't throw it away.

It looks like the 3/4 is the best option for the personel we currently have right now. Let's face it, we are very weak on the DL but have some talent at LB. The 3/4 offers a chance for Denver to put it's better players on the field. A solid NT could make a huge difference for us right now and who knows' Moss might be a gem at OLB rushing QB's on passing downs.

[silkamilkamonico]

It looks like the 3/4 is the best option for the personel we currently have right now. Let's face it, we are very weak on the DL but have some talent at LB. The 3/4 offers a chance for Denver to put it's better players on the field. A solid NT could make a huge difference for us right now and who knows' Moss might be a gem at OLB rushing QB's on passing downs.

It's not a capable 3-4.

A 3-4 knocks out Doom, Robertson, Englerbgerger, and the majority of other role players. The only true 3-4 players that could remotely play the scheme well are Ekuban and Peterson.

Our 3-4 was eaten up alive by NO. We might have tweaked it against the Bucs, but TB is very pedestrian, inexplosive offense.

Lining up in a 3-4 with what we have against teams like SD, Pittsburgh, Indy, and any other teams with a well balance attack or even just a capable QB is suicide, IMHO.

We've had 1 very good game defensive against a pedestrian offense, and a handful of disgraceful games from explosive, to terrible offenses.

Our defense still sucks, IMHO, and I need to see a few more games before I'm starting to even believe they are capable. Every offense, defense, in the NFL has a good day.

[topscribe]

It looks like the 3/4 is the best option for the personel we currently have right now. Let's face it, we are very weak on the DL but have some talent at LB. The 3/4 offers a chance for Denver to put it's better players on the field. A solid NT could make a huge difference for us right now and who knows' Moss might be a gem at OLB rushing QB's on passing downs.

But that is the point. To have an effective 3-4, a team needs a strong DL.
As I pointed out elsewhere, they do not have a suitable NG, and their DEs
are not big enough. LBs alone do not constitute a good 3-4.

-----

[Requiem / The Dagda]

I think Dumervil could find a place at LB in a 3-4; maybe.

[silkamilkamonico]

I also don't know about Moss. I think it's more desperation from the coaching staff than anything else.

I would have to see Moss do something at LB before I go there. If he does, where does that leave Bailey?

[topscribe]

It's not a capable 3-4.

A 3-4 knocks out Doom, Robertson, Englerbgerger, and the majority of other role players. The only true 3-4 players that could remotely play the scheme well are Ekuban and Peterson.

Our 3-4 was eaten up alive by NO. We might have tweaked it against the Bucs, but TB is very pedestrian, inexplosive offense.

Lining up in a 3-4 with what we have against teams like SD, Pittsburgh, Indy, and any other teams with a well balance attack or even just a capable QB is suicide, IMHO.

We've had 1 very good game defensive against a pedestrian offense, and a handful of disgraceful games from explosive, to terrible offenses.

Our defense still sucks, IMHO, and I need to see a few more games before I'm starting to even believe they are capable. Every offense, defense, in the NFL has a good day.

Well Silk, before you apply the "sucks" label to the defense, let's see what
they do from here on out. They certainly did not suck last Sunday, did they?

Moreover, that was a first-time experiment against NO. Now, I might side
with you in the argument that you just don't make training camp changes
in the middle of the regular season . . . it almost got us beaten against NO.
But we saw the confusion it created against Tampa.

As you noted, the personnel is just not there for a base 3-4 defense, and
it would take a massive turnover at DL to do it. No, I side with you that it
is not feasible in the near future. But as a sudden change-of-pace, the
personnel becomes less important, provided it is a surprise to the offense.

-----

[silkamilkamonico]

I think Dumervil could find a place at LB in a 3-4; maybe.

That would leave Moss out of the question than. And Bailey also.

None of those guys are good LB personnel for MLB in 3-4.

[silkamilkamonico]

Well Silk, before you apply the "sucks" label to the defense, let's see what
they do from here on out. They certainly did not suck last Sunday, did they?

Moreover, that was a first-time experiment against NO. Now, I might side
with you in the argument that you just don't make training camp changes
in the middle of the regular season . . . it almost got us beaten against NO.
But we saw the confusion it created against Tampa.

As you noted, the personnel is just not there for a base 3-4 defense, and
it would take a massive turnover at DL to do it. No, I side with you that it
is not feasible in the near future. But as a sudden change-of-pace, the
personnel becomes less important, provided it is a surprise to the offense.

-----

To be fair, I think they've already given themselves that label. I'm not basing that on assumptions of a few games. I'm basing that on a current trend from the last couple of years, and the first 3 games of this season.

It created confusion in TB, but lets be real, TB is about as pedestrian of an offensive team as you can get. They are consistent and efficient, but they were missing their 1 big play guy in Galloway, and they haven't shown an ability to break anything big without him over the last few years.

Hey, if the defense can get a consistent handful of games where they show they are capable, and I'm not talking dominant, I'll gladly start changing my tune about them.

[topscribe]

That would leave Moss out of the question than. And Bailey also.

None of those guys are good LB personnel for MLB in 3-4.

I don't see a problem at LB for a 3-4. Moss does have superior athletic
abilities . . . that is why all scouts had him in the first round (although I was
thoroughly upset at the Broncos' wasting a 1st and 3rd to move up and reach
for him). If he were to work out at OLB, ala Simon Fletcher, that would be
a dynamic bookend arrangement between him and Bailey.

D.J. would be wonderful on the inside in the 3-4, IMO. That is entirely
different from MLB in a 4-3. Webster, Winborn, and Woodyard would also be
great there with their speed.

But we get back to the DL . . . totally unsuited for the 3-4, down to the
last player there . . . except Ekuban and Peterson, as you mentioned.

Nope, a full-time 3-4 is not feasible at this point.

-----

[Nick]

We need another DT (depth), and NT for a dominate 3-4 (ILB can wait untill next draft) I think we can manage with a hybrid form of a 3-4 for now but it will be tough getting a true NT from another team unless it is a team that is looking to rebuild and has a bad record and we compinsate them heavily.

[topscribe]

To be fair, I think they've already given themselves that label. I'm not basing that on assumptions of a few games. I'm basing that on a current trend from the last couple of years, and the first 3 games of this season.

It created confusion in TB, but lets be real, TB is about as pedestrian of an offensive team as you can get. They are consistent and efficient, but they were missing their 1 big play guy in Galloway, and they haven't shown an ability to break anything big without him over the last few years.

Hey, if the defense can get a consistent handful of games where they show they are capable, and I'm not talking dominant, I'll gladly start changing my tune about them.

True, TB does not have any real superstuds on offense, but Griese and
Garcia are experienced veterans, not easily confused.

But I don't think we ought to look at what has happened the last couple
years. Every one of the positions in this year's defense has a different
player in it, except CB and DE. So what happened then in no way can be
indicative of what would happen now.

But I tried to convey to you the same thing you said here: This last game
gave hope, while we need to see what happens in future games before we
can make a final judgment.

-----

[Nick]

a full-time 3-4 is not feasible at this point.

-----

It is feasible. But we will have to have more of a DT type of player playing on and off line and keep them guessing. Because of personal I think our hybrid is far better then our 4-3. I agree we need to personel... but going off last game alone. We had their offensive line guessing on every play.

Even though I think it is feasible... I do not think it will be flawless.

[broncofaninfla]

I think Dumerville stays in during 3/4 sets as it is now and I'm guessing that Williams would move inside and Moss would take his OLB spot on passing downs.

Whether we run a 3/4 or 4/3, we need help at DT THIS year.

Rumor out Chicago is the Bears could be shopping Tommie Harris. He would be a upgarde for us. I'd be game to trade for him assuming he comes cheap.

Who knows, all of the press about the 3/4 could be a ploy by the Broncos to have Jax plan for the 3/4 and actually face the 4/3 come Sunday! LOL!

[Retired_Member_001]

I think Dumerville

This would be a great idea if we had a player called Dumerville.

[TXBRONC]

It is feasible. But we will have to have more of a DT type of player playing on and off line and keep them guessing. Because of personal I think our hybrid is far better then our 4-3. I agree we need to personnel... but going off last game alone. We had their offensive line guessing on every play.

Even though I think it is feasible... I do not think it will be flawless.

Using it as a way of changing things up is fine but Nick if you're advocating complete switch that would end being disastrous in my opinion. As you rightly pointed out we would need some bigger defensive tackles, at this juncture we wont find any that are serviceable.

[topscribe]

Using it as a way of changing things up is fine but Nick if you're advocating complete switch that would end being disastrous in my opinion. As you right pointed out we would need some bigger defensive tackles, at this juncture we wont find any that are serviceable.

You're absolutely right . . .

Bigger DTs and bigger DEs. In a 3-4, the DLs all have to be strong. They
have to occupy OLs so the LBs can do their work. We're talking about going
up against 300+ lb. OLs across the board.

-----

[TXBRONC]

I think Dumerville stays in during 3/4 sets as it is now and I'm guessing that Williams would move inside and Moss would take his OLB spot on passing downs.

Whether we run a 3/4 or 4/3, we need help at DT THIS year.

Rumor out Chicago is the Bears could be shopping Tommie Harris. He would be a upgarde for us. I'd be game to trade for him assuming he comes cheap.

Who knows, all of the press about the 3/4 could be a ploy by the Broncos to have Jax plan for the 3/4 and actually face the 4/3 come Sunday! LOL!

Tommie Harris would not come cheap not by a long shot. The Bears if they are truly trying shop he would want several picks including a number one and he get quite a bit in guaranteed money. In my opinion it's never worth it bankrupt your future for just one player no matter how good he is.

[Nick]

Using it as a way of changing things up is fine but Nick if you're advocating complete switch that would end being disastrous in my opinion. As you rightly pointed out we would need some bigger defensive tackles, at this juncture we wont find any that are serviceable.

We have switched more and more every week. We are already doing it. I am advocating keeping the "hybrid" 3-4 not a complete switch to a 3-4.

[Nick]

The DT's we have now I think will be fine ends in a 3-4 as our ends being OLB's in a 3-4 as I think DJ will be a great MLB in a 3-4. We need that DT but being in a 4-3 and not being able to put any pressure on a QB in comparison to what we are doing now... is a no brainier. We still have a lot of holes on our defense and we need to do what it takes to be deceit right now.

If we are in a 3-4 you can always put a guy up front and meke it look like a 4-3 as well as put some one else in the box and make it look like a 4-6... and disguease somthing as a strong nickle while keeping some players on the field. If we stay in as a 4-3 we will keep getting burned and like this change we have made a great deal.

[TXBRONC]

We have switched more and more every week. We are already doing it. I am advocating keeping the "hybrid" 3-4 not a complete switch to a 3-4.

The way we're running this hybrid version of the 3-4 is new. I know we used some 3-4 against New Orleans but I don't think it was used much against other opponents.

Right now if it gets over used we could get burned by it.

[Dean]

It's beginnng to appear as if Slowik's scheme is to give the look of no
scheme? Shanny said they would be switching off occasionally to keep the
opposing offenses off-balance. As you noted, what they do is not a true
3-4, and I'm not sure they aspire to a true 3-4.

It would still take a great deal of change in personnel to go to a 3-4 as a
base defense, it would seem. Robertson, Thomas, and Peterson are shaping
up as stud DTs, but 4-3 DTs. The Broncos don't presently have enough
beef at DE for the 3-4. Their biggest DEs are Ekuban and Crowder at 275.
The others, Engelberger and Dumervil, are around 260.

But what they are doing ought to confuse some offenses . . . after they
get over confusing themselves. :laugh:

-----

We have the personnel to run a 3-4 as a change up.

By aligning our "nose guard" in the A gap, he does not have to be 340+ pounds to draw a double team. If the term 3-4 defensive end bothers you use a D-tackle there. The front side would play close to a true 3-4 while the backside would resemble more 4-3 techniques.

I don't see this as effective as an every down defense but it does offer some situational advantages. It was employed last game and some positive plays came out of it.

How will it work when teams have seen it more? I can't tell you but the 4-3 we were using wasn't working through 3 games. It was time to roll the dice.

[topscribe]

We have the personnel to run a 3-4 as a change up.

By aligning our "nose guard" in the A gap, he does not have to be 340+ pounds to draw a double team. If the term 3-4 defensive end bothers you use a D-tackle there. The front side would play close to a true 3-4 while the backside would resemble more 4-3 techniques.

I don't see this as effective as an every down defense but it does offer some situational advantages. It was employed last game and some positive plays came out of it.

How will it work when teams have seen it more? I can't tell you but the 4-3 we were using wasn't working through 3 games. It was time to roll the dice.

Exactly. And even though other teams will have seen it, it will still give
something for which they will have to prepare, as you know. The thinner
they can spread the other team's preparation, the better. And it's going to
add so much in apparent complexity to the other team, even though it will
remain relatively simple to our guys on the Broncos' side of the LOS. Am I
making sense?

-----

[TXBRONC]

Exactly. And even though other teams will have seen it, it will still give
something for which they will have to prepare, as you know. The thinner
they can spread the other team's preparation, the better. And it's going to
add so much in apparent complexity to the other team, even though it will
remain relatively simple to our guys on the Broncos' side of the LOS. Am I
making sense?

-----

I think I understand, it forces opposing teams to prepare for one more thing, just like what they're doing down in Miami on the offensive side of the ball.

[broncofaninfla]

Even if we only use the 3/4 from time to time to keeps teams off balance, I still feel the Broncos would be better off to upgrade the talent at NT assuming there is team willing to part with a player who can contribute at a cost that doesn't affect our ability to improve next year. With Denver making inquiries and nothing happening to date, doesn't look like that is going to happen. I wish Seattle would take Niko Koutouvides back for a quality lineman!!

[56crash]

He wont be available this year, but he will in the offseason.

The scary part about it is, after you pay him, will he still play at that level? His character calls that into question, and when it comes to mega millions spent on players........its not a question worth putting your money on.


That is what contracts are for to look out for both sides.

[topscribe]

I just read in a Yahoo! Sports article (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-tradebait100808&prov=yhoo&type=lgns) that Cory Redding may be available. It
said he is a very good player when motivated, and perhaps he might find a
winning team motivating. He's good enough to take a calculated chance on.

Maybe it's not a good idea to tell the Broncos FO about him, though. They
might give up a third-rounder for him . . .

-----

[Kaylore]

I'm not going to hold my breath on this one. Defensive linemen are a premium in the NFL and I have trouble believing any team would let even a decent one go.

[hamrob]

I'm not going to hold my breath on this one. Defensive linemen are a premium in the NFL and I have trouble believing any team would let even a decent one go.That's the scary thought! They probably won't...but I wouldn't be surprised if we got one. They just probably won't be too decent! Hopefully that's not the case.

[TXBRONC]

I'm not going to hold my breath on this one. Defensive linemen are a premium in the NFL and I have trouble believing any team would let even a decent one go.

I could see Detroit shopping Redding but is he the kind of defensive tackle that Denver is looking for?

[topscribe]

I could see Detroit shopping Redding but is he the kind of defensive tackle that Denver is looking for?

I think he would be a definite upgrade. It would give the Broncos three
quality DTs, along with Robertson and Thomas . . . well, maybe four if
Peterson keeps improving. That would help to make it a nice rotation.

-----

[TXBRONC]

I think he would be a definite upgrade. It would give the Broncos three
quality DTs, along with Robertson and Thomas . . . well, maybe four if
Peterson keeps improving. That would help to make it a nice rotation.

-----

I was wonder if maybe the article mentioned earlier meant that the Broncos were looking for big defensive tackle who could play nose tackle.

[elsid13]

I think folks are reading to much into this. More then anything else I believe it is an desperate attempt by the coaching staff to improve the defense. Right Slowik is throwing shit on the wall to see what works and slow down other teams.

Hopefully Denver will be able to run hybrid system similar to what Baltimore does with either Doom or Moss taking the role of Suggs (LB/DE)

[beezer]

How about Touviessi?

[Requiem / The Dagda]

No to Cory Redding.

[topscribe]

No to Cory Redding.

Yeah, the motivation thing bothers me.

They just got rid of some unmotivated people . . .

-----

[Requiem / The Dagda]

It isn't just the unmotivated thing, it is his ridiculous salary for mediocre production. Plus, he's a converted end that is now playing tackle for them. I think the Broncos could do the same thing with a few other players if that was the solution they were looking for. I don't know if acquiring a DL via trade is the best thing to do unless we actually have a inkling of a clue to what we want to do on defense and where we want to go in the future.

I'd prefer it if we dumped turds off to Detroit and not take them back. (Not that Redding is a turd, but he is not worth the pick or the price, IMHO.)

I think Denver blew their shot this off-season with all the big named tackles going other places. Hopefully we find some good defensive line guys somewhere. We really need help. A lot of it.

[TXBRONC]

You know guys I really do think that our front four are going to be alright. Yes it would be nice go out find another quality defensive tackle but nevertheless I think if Slowik and his unit can keep doing what they did against Tampa Bay we'll win the division.

For another thing it really sounds to me (from the article) like Denver is looking for a DT that can play as a NT or better suited to playing NT.

[dogfish]

as i've said before, we aren't doing anything more than spinning our wheels until we pick a defensive scheme and STICK WITH IT! i agree with elsid that we're throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks, and as dean mentioned, this isn't necessarily a bad idea at this point-- we had to try something to see if we could get some better results. . .

however. . . moving forward, they need to dedicate themselves to ONE scheme, whether it's some type of 4-3, 3-4 hybrid, whatever. . . if you don't have a scheme, how are you ever supposed to put together the proper personnel to be effective in it? if you keep switching every year (let alone twice a year!), you end up wasting time, money and draft picks bringing guys in and then having to let them go because they don't fit what you're doing anymore. . .

IMO, unless we see tremendous improvement over the course of this season, the only intelligent approach is to go all out to bring in an experienced DC with a proven system over the offseason-- or at least an assistant with some experience under that type of DC. . . greg williams only signed a one year deal in jacksonville, i believe-- maybe throw some big cash at him. . .

in the meanwhile, i still think the simplest solution would be to impliment a man coverage, blitz-heavy scheme like they use in philly. . . and possibly float a conditional pick to st. louis and see if they're willing to move leonard little. . . but if we're going to make any sort of move on that front, whether for little or anyone else, it needs to happen now, because we're almost at the trading deadline. . .

i just hope we don't do something stupid and overpay for some half-assed D-line scrubs that don't help and get let go after the season. . . IMO, that's the worst-case scenario. . . if we can't find legit help that we think we can build around for the future (which is doubtful at this point), then suck it up, do the best we can with what we have right now, and go into next year armed with a full compliment of draft picks and some sort of coherent plan to address the problem long-term. . . .

[rcsodak]

It's beginnng to appear as if Slowik's scheme is to give the look of no
scheme? Shanny said they would be switching off occasionally to keep the
opposing offenses off-balance. As you noted, what they do is not a true
3-4, and I'm not sure they aspire to a true 3-4.

It would still take a great deal of change in personnel to go to a 3-4 as a
base defense, it would seem. Robertson, Thomas, and Peterson are shaping
up as stud DTs, but 4-3 DTs. The Broncos don't presently have enough
beef at DE for the 3-4. Their biggest DEs are Ekuban and Crowder at 275.
The others, Engelberger and Dumervil, are around 260.

But what they are doing ought to confuse some offenses . . . after they
get over confusing themselves. :laugh:

-----

Didn't the NYGiants last year play 4 DE's to rush the passer? Talk about cornfusing.

[elsid13]

as i've said before, we aren't doing anything more than spinning our wheels until we pick a defensive scheme and STICK WITH IT! i agree with elsid that we're throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks, and as dean mentioned, this isn't necessarily a bad idea at this point-- we had to try something to see if we could get some better results. . .

however. . . moving forward, they need to dedicate themselves to ONE scheme, whether it's some type of 4-3, 3-4 hybrid, whatever. . . if you don't have a scheme, how are you ever supposed to put together the proper personnel to be effective in it? if you keep switching every year (let alone twice a year!), you end up wasting time, money and draft picks bringing guys in and then having to let them go because they don't fit what you're doing anymore. . .

IMO, unless we see tremendous improvement over the course of this season, the only intelligent approach is to go all out to bring in an experienced DC with a proven system over the offseason-- or at least an assistant with some experience under that type of DC. . . greg williams only signed a one year deal in jacksonville, i believe-- maybe throw some big cash at him. . .

in the meanwhile, i still think the simplest solution would be to impliment a man coverage, blitz-heavy scheme like they use in philly. . . and possibly float a conditional pick to st. louis and see if they're willing to move leonard little. . . but if we're going to make any sort of move on that front, whether for little or anyone else, it needs to happen now, because we're almost at the trading deadline. . .

i just hope we don't do something stupid and overpay for some half-assed D-line scrubs that don't help and get let go after the season. . . IMO, that's the worst-case scenario. . . if we can't find legit help that we think we can build around for the future (which is doubtful at this point), then suck it up, do the best we can with what we have right now, and go into next year armed with a full compliment of draft picks and some sort of coherent plan to address the problem long-term. . . .

This is very good post. Teams like Tampa, Tenn, Pitt and Baltimore are successfully fielding good defenses because they pick a system, stick with it and know what players fit that system. It just like the running game, and for the life of me I don't understand why Shanahan doesn't see it.

[rcsodak]

I just read in a Yahoo! Sports article (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-tradebait100808&prov=yhoo&type=lgns) that Cory Redding may be available. It
said he is a very good player when motivated, and perhaps he might find a
winning team motivating. He's good enough to take a calculated chance on.

Maybe it's not a good idea to tell the Broncos FO about him, though. They
might give up a third-rounder for him . . .

-----

Another Texass Turd? No thanks....Crowder's enough.

I'd rather take Dewayne White, of the Lions. He's a better fit for inside-shorter/stouter, and actually can rush the passer.

[jrelway]

i'm watching inside the NFL on showtime right now. They just got done showing the broncos locker room after the tampa game. Dre Bly made a nice speech and handed the game ball to slowik. i aint gonna lie, it made me feel warm and fuzzy inside. This is where our D turns it around guys! i hope.

[elsid13]

i'm watching inside the NFL on showtime right now. They just got done showing the broncos locker room after the tampa game. Dre Bly made a nice speech and handed the game ball to slowik. i aint gonna lie, it made me feel warm and fuzzy inside. This is where our D turns it around guys! i hope.

You got a creeper didn't you. :D

[jrelway]

You got a creeper didn't you. :D

:salute:

[Doom crew72]

I hope it lit a spark under the defense.

We need them more than ever for the next two.

[broncosinindy]

Hell, I'd give up next year's first for a guy like Albert Haynseworth (assuming we could sign him to a long-term deal).... Not likely, but if it were to happen it'd probably be a guy like that that's been franchised or is in the last year of his deal.

i liike hansworth as a penetrater not a nose tackle although i know he could do it. i think it would be a waste

[broncosinindy]

i dont make a move until next season we go with what we got... Id also take a look at Gabe Watson

[omac]

That's pretty much the knock on every elite defensive tackle in the league...

Dang, they all have attitude problems? :D Then let's not get an elite one; just a really, really, really, really, really good one. :cheers:

[WARHORSE]

If anyone watched INSIDE THE NFL, Warren Sapp broke down how worthless Haynesworth played this past week. In all honesty, it made me say HELL NO to attempting to aquire that dude. He took off a lot of plays, and just plain didnt try.


I would never pay mega bucks to anyone unless it was 110% all the time.


Sorry Albert. Looks like Oakland would be a good fit for you.

[dogfish]

this talk about haynesworth is completely moot. . . no 5-0 team is going to trade their best player!


us talking about it makes just as much sense as titans fans saying they need to get brandon marshall from us because they need a wide receiver to put them over the top. . .


:screwy:

[Ziggy]

Reading this thread, a thought occured to me. Shanahan just hasn't figured out how to evaluate D-line talent. Sure, he gets lucky every now and then with a Trevor Pryce, but of all the D-lineman he's picked in the draft, very few have worked out. For those of you who have been following the Broncos since Shanny has been here, you know that he's had the same problem with CB's. For years the Broncos couldn't get a top caliber CB, either in the draft or free agency. Now he has arguably one of the best corner tandems in the league. Why? Because he finally gave up, went out and traded for a hall of fame CB, and then pro bowler Dre Bly. I'm hoping he takes the same approach with the Dline. Now when and if this happens, there is a couple of things that we need to keep in mind:

1. We aren't going to get a top tier defensive lineman in the middle of the season, unless they have attitude, injury, motivation, or off-field problems.
2. When we finally do get a top tier D-lineman, they won't come cheap. Remember, Champ came at a heavy price. So will a D-lineman, unless they have one or more of the problems listed above.

Shanny has tried to shore up the LOS on both sides of the ball. He's spent 7 of his 13 draft picks the last 2 years on the LOS. It has worked out for the offense, but hasn't paid off yet on D. The question is, how patient will he be? If he feels that this team is close to competing for a Super Bowl, I think he goes out and gets a big time player in free agency, trade, and the draft. Look for him to bring in 2 or 3 players to try to turn this D around. If he wants to do it quickly, he's going to have to take some gambles.

Haynesworth is a perfect example of a player that is high-risk, high reward. He can dominate a game, or he can disappear. If a coach could get him to play hard every down, he could end up as the Defensive player of the year in the NFL. IF he gets even lazier, you have another Darryl Gardner on your hands. Either way, he's going to cost a ton of money in the offseason.

[TXBRONC]

this talk about haynesworth is completely moot. . . no 5-0 team is going to trade their best player!


us talking about it makes just as much sense as titans fans saying they need to get brandon marshall from us because they need a wide receiver to put them over the top. . .


:screwy:

Give that man a case of his favorite beverage. :salute:

[TXBRONC]

Reading this thread, a thought occured to me. Shanahan just hasn't figured out how to evaluate D-line talent. Sure, he gets lucky every now and then with a Trevor Pryce, but of all the D-lineman he's picked in the draft, very few have worked out. For those of you who have been following the Broncos since Shanny has been here, you know that he's had the same problem with CB's. For years the Broncos couldn't get a top caliber CB, either in the draft or free agency. Now he has arguably one of the best corner tandems in the league. Why? Because he finally gave up, went out and traded for a hall of fame CB, and then pro bowler Dre Bly. I'm hoping he takes the same approach with the Dline. Now when and if this happens, there is a couple of things that we need to keep in mind:

1. We aren't going to get a top tier defensive lineman in the middle of the season, unless they have attitude, injury, motivation, or off-field problems.
2. When we finally do get a top tier D-lineman, they won't come cheap. Remember, Champ came at a heavy price. So will a D-lineman, unless they have one or more of the problems listed above.

Shanny has tried to shore up the LOS on both sides of the ball. He's spent 7 of his 13 draft picks the last 2 years on the LOS. It has worked out for the offense, but hasn't paid off yet on D. The question is, how patient will he be? If he feels that this team is close to competing for a Super Bowl, I think he goes out and gets a big time player in free agency, trade, and the draft. Look for him to bring in 2 or 3 players to try to turn this D around. If he wants to do it quickly, he's going to have to take some gambles.

Haynesworth is a perfect example of a player that is high-risk, high reward. He can dominate a game, or he can disappear. If a coach could get him to play hard every down, he could end up as the Defensive player of the year in the NFL. IF he gets even lazier, you have another Darryl Gardner on your hands. Either way, he's going to cost a ton of money in the offseason.


I disagree with you that Shanahan gave up on drafting corner backs. Dre Bly is here because of tragedy not because Shanahan gave up drafting corner backs.

[Cugel]

There's THIS from the Rocky Mtn. News:
News flash


Shanahan floated the idea earlier this week of playing defensive end Jarvis Moss at outside linebacker some of the time when the Broncos play their 3-4 look on defense, but the idea appeared to surprise Moss.

"I know nothing about that," Moss said Wednesday. "I haven't heard from the coaches or anything on that one."

Moss, who was the Broncos' first-round pick - 17th overall - in the 2007 draft, has been a game-day inactive three times this season, including Sunday against the Buccaneers.

Listed at 265 pounds, Moss has struggled at times against bigger offensive tackles and has five tackles in limited duty. Shanahan described him Monday as being "in that 240 (pound) range."

"Whatever the coaches want me to do, I'll do, 110 percent," Moss said. "I'll do it."

It looks like they are still trying to find a way to get some use out of Jarvis Moss. This only goes to prove exactly what I wrote in the other thread about trading Moss: that Moss is likely finished in Denver.

They'll try him out, but he's sounding totally unprepared to play outside LB in a 3-4 defense. He hasn't adapted quickly to life in the NFL so far, and he's totally undersized.

If the coach is saying he's lost 15 lbs. and is now down around 240 lbs. THAT's why he's been a game day inactive player. You can play RDE in the NFL at around 250-255, because some players do it and do it extremely well, including Dwight Freeney.

But, NOBODY can play DL in the NFL at 240 lbs.! That's the weight of a LB!

So, it looks like the Broncos will be shopping Moss THIS season rather than next, but he will probably stay on the team at least until the off-season.

1. Like the article said, it's almost impossible to find a 3-4 DL in October. As in "forget it."

2. Even if you could find a warm body to trade for, the other team probably doesn't want Moss, unless he could prove something this season.

His value would be for a team that plays the 4-3. But ONLY if he beefs up and gets his weight and strength back up to around 250-255 range, without sacrificing speed.

Being moved to outside LB might be explored, but it's an entirely different position for him and Denver already HAS a lot of LBs who actually KNOW HOW TO PLAY THEIR POSITION.

Conclusion: I see this rather like Shanahan floating the idea about moving CB Deltha O'Neal to WR. O'Neal just looked stunned when he heard the news. Of course O'Neal wasn't interested so he was cut and wound up in Cincinatti.

But, clearly Moss doesn't think the idea would work either and he's probably right. Shanahan was just thinking: "Hell! Moss is a total BUST. I've got to figure some way to get some use out of him, because it certainly isn't going to be a DE, not with him weighing in at a whopping 240!"

This will fall into the category of "short-lived projects that are never heard from again -- rather like President Bush's proposal to send a man to Mars." :coffee:

[Lonestar]

Reading this thread, a thought occured to me. Shanahan just hasn't figured out how to evaluate D-line talent. Sure, he gets lucky every now and then with a Trevor Pryce, but of all the D-lineman he's picked in the draft, very few have worked out. For those of you who have been following the Broncos since Shanny has been here, you know that he's had the same problem with CB's. For years the Broncos couldn't get a top caliber CB, either in the draft or free agency. Now he has arguably one of the best corner tandems in the league. Why? Because he finally gave up, went out and traded for a hall of fame CB, and then pro bowler Dre Bly. I'm hoping he takes the same approach with the Dline. Now when and if this happens, there is a couple of things that we need to keep in mind:

1. We aren't going to get a top tier defensive lineman in the middle of the season, unless they have attitude, injury, motivation, or off-field problems.
2. When we finally do get a top tier D-lineman, they won't come cheap. Remember, Champ came at a heavy price. So will a D-lineman, unless they have one or more of the problems listed above.

Shanny has tried to shore up the LOS on both sides of the ball. He's spent 7 of his 13 draft picks the last 2 years on the LOS. It has worked out for the offense, but hasn't paid off yet on D. The question is, how patient will he be? If he feels that this team is close to competing for a Super Bowl, I think he goes out and gets a big time player in free agency, trade, and the draft. Look for him to bring in 2 or 3 players to try to turn this D around. If he wants to do it quickly, he's going to have to take some gambles.

Haynesworth is a perfect example of a player that is high-risk, high reward. He can dominate a game, or he can disappear. If a coach could get him to play hard every down, he could end up as the Defensive player of the year in the NFL. IF he gets even lazier, you have another Darryl Gardner on your hands. Either way, he's going to cost a ton of money in the offseason.

outstanding post wished that everyone got it like you obviously have..

whatever they have been doing all these year it has not worked.. time to try something else.. which means losing the rest to the games, thus earning the top pick, trading up for a top pick or trading away top picks to get a proven Vet..

this getting along on the cheap all these years has not worked!!!

have you figured that out yet mikey?

[TheRecession]

I don't like Haynesworth. Great talent when he decides he wants to play; underachieves when he doesn't. A Randy Moss type, no thanks.

Have you watched the Titans play last year and so far this year? Big Albert is not slacking at all, I only dream we could have such a special talent.

[TheRecession]

We should make a move if it does not break the bank. Coaches are right we have way more talent at LB than DL. The 3-4 allows them to shine and be exotic.

[TXBRONC]

We should make a move if it does not break the bank. Coaches are right we have way more talent at LB than DL. The 3-4 allows them to shine and be exotic.

If Denver wants to change to a 3-4 it wont be until the spring. Teams don't just change there base defense in the middle of a season. If Denver is inclide to do so it wont be until next spring.

[TheRecession]

If Denver wants to change to a 3-4 it wont be until the spring. Teams don't just change there base defense in the middle of a season. If Denver is inclide to do so it wont be until next spring.

It's a hybrid defense right now. If we can bring in somebody to make the defense better for the hybrid then i would be all for making a move.

Jarvis Moss should be a nice pass rusher at the OLB position in the hybrid. I think we confused Tamap quite a bit jumping from 3-4 to 4-3 and both were effected.

[Superchop 7]

Too weird.

Send Moss to someone (other than Tuten) that can bulk him up and get him stronger.

No way is that guy OLB.

[Lonestar]

Too weird.

Send Moss to someone (other than Tuten) that can bulk him up and get him stronger.

No way is that guy OLB.


think they have given up on putting wieght on him.. he body is built for 240..

[TXBRONC]

It's a hybrid defense right now. If we can bring in somebody to make the defense better for the hybrid then i would be all for making a move.

Jarvis Moss should be a nice pass rusher at the OLB position in the hybrid. I think we confused Tamap quite a bit jumping from 3-4 to 4-3 and both were effected.

If your thinking is that the hybrid 3-4 would now become the base defense, I don't believe that is good idea. In fact, I have ever heard of a teams doing something like its because they've been hit hard by injury.

Honestly we wont find a defensive tackle that would fit a 3-4 defense at this juncture. Even we did find the right type of personnel what would have to give in order to bring that kind of player.

[topscribe]

think they have given up on putting wieght on him.. he body is built for 240..

Well, I supposed it's LB or bust then?

-----

[dogfish]

Well, I supposed it's LB or bust then?

-----


i'm still not entirely convinced of that. . . it's a long shot at that weigh, but robert mathis was a highly successful situational rusher that's become a solid fulltime end. . . personally, i wouldn't want a starter at that weight, but if moss can even develop into an effective wave rusher and produce pressure and sacks for us on third downs, i'll be satisfied--
regardless of where they line him up. . . naturally you want a starter out of that pick, but i don't share the all or nothing attitude most people around here seem to take. . . effective situational players can still be really valuable to a team, and franchise quarterbacks may be about the only thing in the league more valuable than good pass rushers. . . IF the light comes on for him at some point, a player with his frame and skillset could be exceptionally useful to us if we intend to continue running a hybrid scheme. . . i'm thinking of shifting fronts where he starts out in a three-point stance, then stands up before the snap to switch our front from a 4-3 to a 3-4, and things of that nature-- create confusion, try to spring an unblocked rusher or generate mismatches against their RBs. . .

of course, right now moss isn't giving us anything, so he has quite a ways to go to even become a part-time asset. . . we'll see. . . but i very much applaud their desire to find ways to get him onto the field-- after what they invested in him, they should get creative with it and exhaust all possibilities before giving up. . .

[Ziggy]

i'm still not entirely convinced of that. . . it's a long shot at that weigh, but robert mathis was a highly successful situational rusher that's become a solid fulltime end. . . personally, i wouldn't want a starter at that weight, but if moss can even develop into an effective wave rusher and produce pressure and sacks for us on third downs, i'll be satisfied--
regardless of where they line him up. . . naturally you want a starter out of that pick, but i don't share the all or nothing attitude most people around here seem to take. . . effective situational players can still be really valuable to a team, and franchise quarterbacks may be about the only thing in the league more valuable than good pass rushers. . . IF the light comes on for him at some point, a player with his frame and skillset could be exceptionally useful to us if we intend to continue running a hybrid scheme. . . i'm thinking of shifting fronts where he starts out in a three-point stance, then stands up before the snap to switch our front from a 4-3 to a 3-4, and things of that nature-- create confusion, try to spring an unblocked rusher or generate mismatches against their RBs. . .

of course, right now moss isn't giving us anything, so he has quite a ways to go to even become a part-time asset. . . we'll see. . . but i very much applaud their desire to find ways to get him onto the field-- after what they invested in him, they should get creative with it and exhaust all possibilities before giving up. . .


Good post, Dog. Another successful undersized pass rusher that comes to mind is Jason Taylor. He plays at around 245 also. That doesn't mean that Moss will become a Jason Taylor, or a Robert Mathis, but I'm all for giving him every chance possible to develop before giving up on him.

[TheRecession]

i'm still not entirely convinced of that. . . it's a long shot at that weigh, but robert mathis was a highly successful situational rusher that's become a solid fulltime end. . . personally, i wouldn't want a starter at that weight, but if moss can even develop into an effective wave rusher and produce pressure and sacks for us on third downs, i'll be satisfied--
regardless of where they line him up. . . naturally you want a starter out of that pick, but i don't share the all or nothing attitude most people around here seem to take. . . effective situational players can still be really valuable to a team, and franchise quarterbacks may be about the only thing in the league more valuable than good pass rushers. . . IF the light comes on for him at some point, a player with his frame and skillset could be exceptionally useful to us if we intend to continue running a hybrid scheme. . . i'm thinking of shifting fronts where he starts out in a three-point stance, then stands up before the snap to switch our front from a 4-3 to a 3-4, and things of that nature-- create confusion, try to spring an unblocked rusher or generate mismatches against their RBs. . .

of course, right now moss isn't giving us anything, so he has quite a ways to go to even become a part-time asset. . . we'll see. . . but i very much applaud their desire to find ways to get him onto the field-- after what they invested in him, they should get creative with it and exhaust all possibilities before giving up. . .

:beer:

[BANJOPICKER1]

As long as its not some has been 13 year vet for a 3rd rounder or something.
I think Shanny and the Denver team as a whole is done with that kind of gunk. Look for us to pick up players that can help the team long term, not hurt them.:D

GOOOOOOOOOOO BRONCOS!!!!:salute:

[Lonestar]

Good post, Dog. Another successful undersized pass rusher that comes to mind is Jason Taylor. He plays at around 245 also. That doesn't mean that Moss will become a Jason Taylor, or a Robert Mathis, but I'm all for giving him every chance possible to develop before giving up on him.


got to remember that Jason also had a damned good NT/DT next to him most of the time and Zack covering his flanks and a fine set of CB back there also..

Those little things we do not have at this point in time.. and yes I know that Champ in back there, but they had two great ones.. not Champ and the other guy..

BTW their coaches name for most of this time was Bates..

[Lonestar]

Well, I supposed it's LB or bust then?

-----

like most of mikeys #1's..

[topscribe]

like most of mikeys #1's..

How far back you going? Here's what I see the last five years:

2004 - D.J. Williams
2005 - No #1
2006 - Jay Cutler
2007 - Jarvis Moss
2008 - Ryan Clady

For all of us who aren't history students, this looks pretty good, even if
Moss were to bust, which we don't know yet. It certainly would not
constitute "most, the busts being only 25% of the four years they had a #1.

-----

[TXBRONC]

How far back you going? Here's what I see the last five years:

2004 - D.J. Williams
2005 - No #1
2006 - Jay Cutler
2007 - Jarvis Moss
2008 - Ryan Clady

For all of us who aren't history students, this looks pretty good, even if
Moss were to bust, which we don't know yet. It certainly would not
constitute "most, the busts being only 25% of the four years they had a #1.

-----

The last five years looks pretty good.

[Lonestar]

Well, I supposed it's LB or bust then?

-----


like most of mikeys #1's..


How far back you going? Here's what I see the last five years:

2004 - D.J. Williams
2005 - No #1
2006 - Jay Cutler
2007 - Jarvis Moss
2008 - Ryan Clady

For all of us who aren't history students, this looks pretty good, even if
Moss were to bust, which we don't know yet. It certainly would not
constitute "most, the busts being only 25% of the four years they had a #1.

-----

I guess I did not make myself clear so let me do so here..

1996 - John Mobley LB
1997 - Trevor Pryce lb-de converted to DT
1998 - Marcus Nash wr
1999 - Al Wilson LB
2000 - Deltha O'Neal CB
2001- Willie middlebroken CB
2002 - Ashley Lelie wr
2003 - George Foster t
2004 - D.J. Williams LB
2005 - No #1
2006 - Jay Cutler QB
2007 - Jarvis Moss de-LB
2008 - Ryan Clady T

most of mikeys picks were either LB made good or busts.. as noted by the colored coded list above..

so look at the list and if you want remove Pryce from the LB portion although that was the spot he primarily played in college..

you have either LB that made good or busts IMO..

Then you have Jay and Clady as the only other two #1 picks that have accounted for anything other than the normal, since he is a number one pick we have to play him to find out for sure whether he is worth a damn... Which I think we can all agree that the following were indeed busts for DEN in the long term application of what you expect from a top pick:
1998 - Marcus Nash wr
2000 - Deltha O'Neal CB
2001- Willie middlebroken CB
2002 - Ashley Lelie wr
2003 - George Foster t

with the jury still out on
2007 - Jarvis Moss de

I hope the clarifies what I thought was clear and concise before..

[topscribe]

I guess I did not make myself clear so let me do so here..

1996 - John Mobley LB
1997 - Trevor Pryce lb-de converted to DT
1998 - Marcus Nash wr
1999 - Al Wilson LB
2000 - Deltha O'Neal CB
2001- Willie middlebroken CB
2002 - Ashley Lelie wr
2003 - George Foster t
2004 - D.J. Williams LB
2005 - No #1
2006 - Jay Cutler QB
2007 - Jarvis Moss de-LB
2008 - Ryan Clady T

most of mikeys picks were either LB made good or busts.. as noted by the colored coded list above..

so look at the list and if you want remove Pryce from the LB portion although that was the spot he primarily played in college..

you have either LB that made good or busts IMO..

Then you have Jay and Clady as the only other two #1 picks that have accounted for anything other than the normal, since he is a number one pick we have to play him to find out for sure whether he is worth a damn... Which I think we can all agree that the following were indeed busts for DEN in the long term application of what you expect from a top pick:
1998 - Marcus Nash wr
2000 - Deltha O'Neal CB
2001- Willie middlebroken CB
2002 - Ashley Lelie wr
2003 - George Foster t

with the jury still out on
2007 - Jarvis Moss de

I hope the clarifies what I thought was clear and concise before..

This is why I mentioned that I am not a history student at least toward the NFL.

I'm more of a "what have you done lately" student. ;)


BTW, you apparently have the "stars" in red. In that case, I would put
Cutler and Clady in red, too. They have already established themselves.

Also, I would not consider Foster a bust . . . not as good as we had hoped,
but not a bust. He did start for several years, and was part of that 2005
line that the league considered one of the best.

-----

[Lonestar]

This is why I mentioned that I am not a history student at least toward the NFL.

I'm more of a "what have you done lately" student. ;)

-----


well to each his own.. I prefer to look at history, to learn from it so we do not repeat it again and again..

Looking at history as we speak mikey is 2 for 12 not counting LB picks or 6 for 12 if you do.. including Pryce and actual LB's..

Not sure I like being 50% with mikeys top picks..

[MOtorboat]

well to each his own.. I prefer to look at history, to learn from it so we do not repeat it again and again..

Looking at history as we speak mikey is 2 for 12 not counting LB picks or 6 for 12 if you do.. including Pryce and actual LB's..

Not sure I like being 50% with mikeys top picks..

So he's 50 percent in the first round...have you done any comparisons, or just more blind criticism?

[Lonestar]

This is why I mentioned that I am not a history student at least toward the NFL.

I'm more of a "what have you done lately" student. ;)


BTW, you apparently have the "stars" in red. In that case, I would put
Cutler and Clady in red, too. They have already established themselves.

Also, I would not consider Foster a bust . . . not as good as we had hoped,
but not a bust. He did start for several years, and was part of that 2005
line that the league considered one of the best.
-----

since you modified this since I answered the original.

foster was played because he had no one better.. that does not IMO qualify him as a good choice for a top pick.. someone that can't hold a top spot on another team as bad as DET is is certainly not a great player..

the only reason he lasted as long as he did in DEN was the GM could not admit he was a bust and we had no one else better..

Jay and Clady are not in red because they were not LB's as to my original post answering your comment

"Well, I supposed it's LB or bust then?"

my response was
"like most of mikeys #1's.." meaning that MOST were either LB or busts..

Meaning they were neither LB or busts.. and they certainly were not in the MOST category..



Hope that helps..

[Lonestar]

So he's 50 percent in the first round...have you done any comparisons, or just more blind criticism?


NO I have not, nor am I going to do so..

My comment stands as quoted

most of his busts were catastrophic.. the players could not make it as a starter somewhere else in their original positions.. most, if they are in the NFL are backups ..

that is not what one expects out of a class organization like the Broncos..

at least not what I expect from them.. if your willing to allow it, fine be me..


there are plenty of reports on how bad they have done in the press which I'm sure you have seen already.. one in particular last year had them rated at the worst drafting team form 2000-2004.

[MOtorboat]

So only Denver's busts were catastrophic...OK...gotcha...

Your arguments will never have much credence without a comparison. It's just blind criticism.

[topscribe]

well to each his own.. I prefer to look at history, to learn from it so we do not repeat it again and again..

Looking at history as we speak mikey is 2 for 12 not counting LB picks or 6 for 12 if you do.. including Pryce and actual LB's..

Not sure I like being 50% with mikeys top picks..

Why do I get the impression that if Shanny hits on the next 10 you will still
be dwelling on this past? JR, I love ya to death, but I can't go back there
with you.

From 2005 on, Shanny & Co. have scored up and down the the picks in the
drafts. Not only is Moss the only one who could possibly end up a bust
(but, as I mentioned, we don't know that yet), but they have made several
selections in later rounds that would go much higher today, including some
who would go in the first round, e.g., Marshall, Dumervil, Kuper, Hixon
(whom they threw under the bus but is now starring elsewhere), R. Harris,
Thomas, Larsen, and others. Moreover, a recent poll indicated that Cutler
would now be the overall #1 choice in his draft. D-Will probably would have
been a starter for us. Even Fast Eddie hasn't acted or played like a 2nd
rounder so far, and I've heard some scouts say they wouldn't be surprised
to see Scheffler ultimately join Gonzalez and Gates as one of the premier
TEs in the league.

Even in 2004, whereas the rest of the picks were shameful, D.J. was a
major score.

And Shanny & Co. have been wizards in FA, adding the likes of Woodyard,
Kern, Young, Hall, and Martinez.

The past be damned, all in all, I am thoroughly tickled with the acquisitions
these past four years.

There's a reason the Broncos are 4-1 this year. It's called talent. :beer:

-----

[topscribe]

since you modified this since I answered the original.

foster was played because he had no one better.. that does not IMO qualify him as a good choice for a top pick.. someone that can't hold a top spot on another team as bad as DET is is certainly not a great player..

the only reason he lasted as long as he did in DEN was the GM could not admit he was a bust and we had no one else better. Fact is, if he ended
up as a starter for several years, I don't know how you can consider him a
bust.

Jay and Clady are not in red because they were not LB's as to my original post answering your comment

"Well, I supposed it's LB or bust then?"

my response was
"like most of mikeys #1's.." meaning that MOST were either LB or busts..

Meaning they were neither LB or busts.. and they certainly were not in the MOST category..



Hope that helps..

Regarding Foster, that doesn't make much sense, JR. He started because
he was the starter. Shoot, Champ is starting because they don't have
anyone better.

Regarding the LBs, it's kind of ironic, isn't it, that LB is considered one of
the strengths of the team now?

-----

[TheRecession]

got to remember that Jason also had a damned good NT/DT next to him most of the time and Zack covering his flanks and a fine set of CB back there also..

Those little things we do not have at this point in time.. and yes I know that Champ in back there, but they had two great ones.. not Champ and the other guy..

BTW their coaches name for most of this time was Bates..

Sam Madison and Patrick Surtain was average.

[TheRecession]

well to each his own.. I prefer to look at history, to learn from it so we do not repeat it again and again..

Looking at history as we speak mikey is 2 for 12 not counting LB picks or 6 for 12 if you do.. including Pryce and actual LB's..

Not sure I like being 50% with mikeys top picks..

It looks like we have not repeated that history as of late.

[turftoad]

Sam Madison and Patrick Surtain was average.

Those two, in thier prime were one of the best CB tandems in the NFL.

[TheRecession]

Those two, in thier prime were one of the best CB tandems in the NFL.

Behind a dominant front 7.

[TXBRONC]

Regarding Foster, that doesn't make much sense, JR. He started because
he was the starter. Shoot, Champ is starting because they don't have
anyone better.

Regarding the LBs, it's kind of ironic, isn't it, that LB is considered one of
the strengths of the team now?

-----

I'm sure we had other offensive tackles on the team that could have started ahead of Foster if they had played better than he did. Foster's down fall way he became in his technique.

[Lonestar]

Sam Madison and Patrick Surtain was average.


sure went to Hawaii alot for being average....

[Lonestar]

Behind a dominant front 7.

that was the point of the thread.. you win or lose on the LOS....

[topscribe]

sure went to Hawaii alot for being average....

My thoughts exactly. Those guys were good. Period.

Every CB is better with a better front seven. Even Champ. :whoknows:

-----

[Lonestar]

Regarding Foster, that doesn't make much sense, JR. He started because he was the starter. Shoot, Champ is starting because they don't have anyone better.

Regarding the LBs, it's kind of ironic, isn't it, that LB is considered one of
the strengths of the team now?

-----

Are you seriously saying that foster was indeed a #1 choice? The only reason he started as much as he did was:


ONE we did not have anyone better, because they thought he would get better.. I"ll always remember mikeys comment draft day about him having the best quick/fast feet he had seen in a BIG OT..

He started because he was a #1 and they had to justify it.. and we did not have anyone better.. probably because we spent a #1 on foster..


it is rare that a #1 choice does not make it through less than 4 training camps.. but foster did not did he.. at least not Denvers..

Yes Champ in starting because they don't have anyone better in the NFL>>>>duh..

The LB's are considered a Strength only because the safeties suck and the DL is worse..

DJ and Champ are great players everyone else would be hard pressed to start on good NFL teams.. Not saying they could not start in DET for example or STL or OAK.. but how many teams are interested in the rest of the guys?..

Suppose DAL wants anyone besides DJ and Champ? How about the Giants?

Getting prime players for the DL can make those behind them better players..

ray lewis was not great without his DL.. he was good, but the DL makes his job easier.. sure Boss, Bly could probably start for a few teams as would Thomas and maybe Robertson.. But I doubt that anyone of them would start on an elite team.. not the way they are playing this year..

Forget about webster and the safeties or any of the DE's save maybe Doom, and he'd be situational....

[topscribe]

Are you seriously saying that foster was indeed a #1 choice? The only reason he started as much as he did was:


ONE we did not have anyone better, because they thought he would get better.. I"ll always remember mikeys comment draft day about him having the best quick/fast feet he had seen in a BIG OT..
He started because he was a #1 and they had to justify it.. and we did not have anyone better.. probably because we spent a #1 on foster..


it is rare that a #1 choice does not make it through less than 4 training camps.. but foster did not did he.. at least not Denvers..

Did I say anywhere that Foster was worth a #1? I don't remember saying
that. What I said was that he was a starter for the Broncos, so he could
not be labeled a "bust," even though he should not have been taken as a
#1. But he did go through four TCs with the Broncos: 2003-2006, then he
was traded for value.


The LB's are considered a Strength only because the safeties suck and the DL is worse..
That's your take. My take is that LB is a strength because of D.J. and Boss,
and because of the depth that Winborn, Green, and Woodyard provide. They
need to improve at MLB, true, but Webster has been showing up lately.
Between Webster and Koutouvides, the Broncos will have superb depth if
they can get a stud starter.


DJ and Champ are great players everyone else would be hard pressed to start on good NFL teams.. Not saying they could not start in DET for example or STL or OAK.. but how many teams are interested in the rest of the guys?..

Suppose DAL wants anyone besides DJ and Champ? How about the Giants?

Getting prime players for the DL can make those behind them better players..

ray lewis was not great without his DL.. he was good, but the DL makes his job easier.. sure Boss, Bly could probably start for a few teams as would Thomas and maybe Robertson.. But I doubt that anyone of them would start on an elite team.. not the way they are playing this year..

Forget about webster and the safeties or any of the DE's save maybe Doom, and he'd be situational....McCree was a starter for no less than the Chargers, and he didn't suddenly
lose his abilities. In fact, he still looks like a player to me . . . and to others
more knowledgeable than I. Robertson started for the Jets and is still well
thought of. Thomas would bring value from about anybody. Boss has been
getting better every week and is shaping up as an excellent 'backer. Twice
this week, I have seen where Bly was mentioned, outside the Broncos
organization, as an excellent CB. You think Dumervil is not well thought of?
12½ sacks will bring value on anybody's team.

Personally, I like how they have been playing. The defense needs to stop
giving up three or four big plays a game, but the rest of the 60 minutes
have been pretty good for them.

But the bottom line is still this: 4 - 1.

-----

[dogfish]

okay, how the hell did we get back to the same old discussion about shanahan's drafting AGAIN???


can't we get a seperate thread about that, or something?



:noidea:

[TXBRONC]

Did I say anywhere that Foster was worth a #1? I don't remember saying
that. What I said was that he was a starter for the Broncos, so he could
not be labeled a "bust," even though he should not have been taken as a
#1. But he did go through four TCs with the Broncos: 2003-2006, then he
was traded for value.


That's your take. My take is that LB is a strength because of D.J. and Boss,
and because of the depth that Winborn, Green, and Woodyard provide. They
need to improve at MLB, true, but Webster has been showing up lately.
Between Webster and Koutouvides, the Broncos will have superb depth if
they can get a stud starter.

McCree was a starter for no less than the Chargers, and he didn't suddenly
lose his abilities. In fact, he still looks like a player to me . . . and to others
more knowledgeable than I. Robertson started for the Jets and is still well
thought of. Thomas would bring value from about anybody. Boss has been
getting better every week and is shaping up as an excellent 'backer. Twice
this week, I have seen where Bly was mentioned, outside the Broncos
organization, as an excellent CB. You think Dumervil is not well thought of?
12½ sacks will bring value on anybody's team.

Personally, I like how they have been playing. The defense needs to stop
giving up three or four big plays a game, but the rest of the 60 minutes
have been pretty good for them.

But the bottom line is still this: 4 - 1.

-----

Nicely said Top. :salute:

[omac]

okay, how the hell did we get back to the same old discussion about shanahan's drafting AGAIN???


can't we get a seperate thread about that, or something?



:noidea:

:lol: :D :laugh:

[Broncolingus]

I don't know what to say about this...just so long as we don't give away the farm, but...

...ANYONE who could come in and at least get the FRIGGIN defensive line going in the right god-damn direction would be a blessing...

[dogfish]

I don't know what to say about this...just so long as we don't give away the farm, but...

...ANYONE who could come in and at least get the FRIGGIN defensive line going in the right god-damn direction would be a blessing...


if it's going to happen, it'll have to be in the next few days, because i believe this coming tuesday is the trading deadline. . . IMO, the fact that nothing has happened means it's about 98% likely that nothing is going to happen. . . which is fine by me, although i certainly wouldn't complain about getting some help this year IF the price was right-- with a strong young core on offense and a recent run of success in the draft, i'm cool with keeping our picks and building for the future the right way. . . if we can draft a couple of decent defensive players that help solidify that unit, maybe next year we go out and make that move to trade a future pick for an impact defensive player. . .

[gobroncsnv]

if it's going to happen, it'll have to be in the next few days, because i believe this coming tuesday is the trading deadline. . . IMO, the fact that nothing has happened means it's about 98% likely that nothing is going to happen. . . which is fine by me, although i certainly wouldn't complain about getting some help this year IF the price was right-- with a strong young core on offense and a recent run of success in the draft, i'm cool with keeping our picks and building for the future the right way. . . if we can draft a couple of decent defensive players that help solidify that unit, maybe next year we go out and make that move to trade a future pick for an impact defensive player. . .


Yep, the deadline is the 14th... It's kind of amazing, though, how a deadline sometimes drives things to the last minute, kind of like getting a rook into camp when he's been a holdout until like the last week of preseason... Guess these guys work best under pressure, since desperation can sometimes push folks, sometimes for better, sometimes worser. I think, IF-IF-IF, we were to find the right guy, I could go as high as a 3, along with a guarantee that he'd sign a several year contract, more laden with incentives than guarantees. So how's that for being conditional?

I don't want to give away our future, but I also think it's pretty urgent that we get some dline help THIS year, if we're going to maximize the potential of this year's offense. I'd hate to see a year like this go to waste by not going very deep into the playoffs. Not saying we're SB bound, but these kids could use the extra grind time so that we're better set to do so for the NEXT 5 seasons. :cool:

[Lonestar]

If we do not make a trade or bring someone else in VIA FA then I think it makes Pats comment after last season about building this team via the draft ring true..

If it does not happen then we are committed to riding the wave that we drafted or had on the team this year.. and frankly IMO it is a small one at best..

The next chance we get via trades is after the season and then I'd wait for FA to start..

I do not think we will venture in the the trades unless Pat feels it the only way to get deep into the playoffs this year.... As one of the Alpha Dogs in the NFL I think he is committed to lowering salaries for players and that is not giving Rookies huge contract until they prove themselves on the field.. and taming down the FA contracts some what.

[Simple Jaded]

okay, how the hell did we get back to the same old discussion about shanahan's drafting AGAIN???


can't we get a seperate thread about that, or something?



:noidea:

That would give The Cafe a run for it's money......

[WARHORSE]

If we do not make a trade or bring someone else in VIA FA then I think it makes Pats comment after last season about building this team via the draft ring true..


Nice bend.


If it does not happen then we are committed to riding the wave that we drafted or had on the team this year.. and frankly IMO it is a small one at best..

Its a small one at best every year at this time.

The next chance we get via trades is after the season and then I'd wait for FA to start..

I do not think we will venture in the the trades unless Pat feels it the only way to get deep into the playoffs this year.... As one of the Alpha Dogs in the NFL I think he is committed to lowering salaries for players and that is not giving Rookies huge contract until they prove themselves on the field.. and taming down the FA contracts some what.

Pat Bowlen is one of the owners who regularly takes his team to the upper tiers of the salary cap, many times taking it to the limit. He wants fair salaries for everyone. I agree with this last statement.


:coffee:

[WARHORSE]

So he's 50 percent in the first round...have you done any comparisons, or just more blind criticism?

Blind criticism is the winning answer for Jrwiz.

He still thinks the DAFT is a science.:coffee:



Position, team needs, both his as well as those around him, players available, etc, etc.............are all variables that have nothing to do with DAFT success.




Far as Im concerned, Shanny KICKS BUTT.

[Simple Jaded]

Blind criticism is the winning answer for Jrwiz.

He still thinks the DAFT is a science.:coffee:



Position, team needs, both his as well as those around him, players available, etc, etc.............are all variables that have nothing to do with DAFT success.




Far as Im concerned, Shanny KICKS BUTT.

When it comes to Mike Shanahan "DAFT" is a science...:D...

[Lonestar]

When it comes to Mike Shanahan "DAFT" is a science...:D...

Could not have said better with less words..

Great coach

Daft GM.. at least 1999-2004 perhaps even 2005 and 2007..

Which leaves 2006 and Maybe 2008 (jury still out on MOST of these players) as great DRAFTS..

[omac]

And it goes back to the draft .... :D

No matter. A lot of the experts here hated picking up Cutler while we still had Plummer. Some were even disgusted with the Clady pick. LOL, some posters here were vehemently wishing we had Vince Young instead. :D I hope he turns things around, but I think we can all admit now that skills-wise and maturity-wise, he wasn't ready to be a starting NFL QB.

Truth is, most teams have an achilles heel when it comes to addressing some team needs.

Tennessee has a great DL and OL, but they can't for the life of them properly evaluate WR talent, whether in the draft or through FA and trades. The Vikings and Ravens are the same.

KC, Minnesotta, they don't know how to evaluate QB talent, and their teams suffer for it.

Some teams know how to get the talent, but they have difficulty getting it to fit ... with their talent, the Texans should have a great defense, but currently, it sucks. The Rams should also be a much better team.

The Colts don't have a great DL, but they use schemes to mask it. One thing, it's all dependent on one player ... Bob Sanders. If he plays, their D is great; if not, it stinks. Tennessee is not the same defensive team without Haynesworth; we scored a bunch on them last season with our injury depleted OL.

SD looked like a strong team all around last season, and they should be. They've picked so many times in the top 10 and even the top 5; they should get a ton of good players, for sucking for so long. Yet remove just one player, Merriman, and now their defense sucks, so what happened to all that supposed talent?

Sometimes, all it takes is one player to be the difference between very good and sucks; in our OL, it's Clady. With the Titans and their DL, it's Haynesworth. With the Colts, it's Sanders. With SD it's Merriman.

Unfortunately for us ... I think it was G_Money who said it ... it's tough to evaluate DL talent from college, so you'd usually have to pick within the top 10 or top 5 for an almost sure thing, and no way the Broncos will pick that high. :cheers:

[atwater27]

I miss Trevor Pryce.

[TXBRONC]

And it goes back to the draft .... :D

No matter. A lot of the experts here hated picking up Cutler while we still had Plummer. Some were even disgusted with the Clady pick. LOL, some posters here were vehemently wishing we had Vince Young instead. :D I hope he turns things around, but I think we can all admit now that skills-wise and maturity-wise, he wasn't ready to be a starting NFL QB.

Truth is, most teams have an achilles heel when it comes to addressing some team needs.

Tennessee has a great DL and OL, but they can't for the life of them properly evaluate WR talent, whether in the draft or through FA and trades. The Vikings and Ravens are the same.

KC, Minnesotta, they don't know how to evaluate QB talent, and their teams suffer for it.

Some teams know how to get the talent, but they have difficulty getting it to fit ... with their talent, the Texans should have a great defense, but currently, it sucks. The Rams should also be a much better team.

The Colts don't have a great DL, but they use schemes to mask it. One thing, it's all dependent on one player ... Bob Sanders. If he plays, their D is great; if not, it stinks. Tennessee is not the same defensive team without Haynesworth; we scored a bunch on them last season with our injury depleted OL.

SD looked like a strong team all around last season, and they should be. They've picked so many times in the top 10 and even the top 5; they should get a ton of good players, for sucking for so long. Yet remove just one player, Merriman, and now their defense sucks, so what happened to all that supposed talent?

Sometimes, all it takes is one player to be the difference between very good and sucks; in our OL, it's Clady. With the Titans and their DL, it's Haynesworth. With the Colts, it's Sanders. With SD it's Merriman.

Unfortunately for us ... I think it was G_Money who said it ... it's tough to evaluate DL talent from college, so you'd usually have to pick within the top 10 or top 5 for an almost sure thing, and no way the Broncos will pick that high. :cheers:

Great post Omac. :salute:

By the way I meant to add this to post.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/59293-2006-draft-revisited-denver-broncos-shine-above-the-rest

2006 Draft Revisited: Denver Broncos Shine above the Rest
Sayre Bedinger writes that the Broncos came away from the 2006 draft with a smile on their face...because they knew they just made every other team look stupid.
by Sayre Bedinger (Member)
3 958 reads
History
September 19, 2008
Today's Must Reads
Is Ty Willingham Racist?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bleacher Report NFL Power Rankings: Week Six
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How To Use Las Vegas Lines To Score Fantasy PointsDenver went into the 2006 draft looking to improve a team that just went 13-3, and made it to the AFC Championship game. Instead of aiming for the present, head coach Mike Shanahan looked into the future, and made a move that shocked Bronco nation.



Round One

The Rams were on the clock at pick No. 11, and Matt Leinart had just fallen to the Cardinals at the previous pick. Leinart's fall was the talk of the day, because he was absolutely not supposed to have dropped into the Cardinals laps. Little did NFL fans know that the true steal of the draft was to come about 20 minutes later, when the AFC Runner-up Denver Broncos traded up to get Vanderbilt quarterback Jay Cutler.

The pick was not a popular one, as analysts and fans felt the Broncos needed only a top-tier WR to take it to the next level. Shanahan knew what he was doing.

Cutler, the most unheralded SEC Offensive Player of the Year of all time became the first top 11 draft pick for Denver in more than a decade. The Broncos acquired an extra first round draft pick in exchange for Jason Campbell the previous year, and used that (15th overall) and the 68th overall pick to trade up for Cutler.

Jay Cutler

Combine: 4.7 second 40-yard dash, 24 bench press reps

SEC Offensive Player of the Year



Round Two

In round two, the Broncos traded for WR Javon Walker from Green Bay. Walker was an excellent addition in his first year in Denver. He was the explosive weapon the Broncos craved, but he was injured in 2007 and released in the offseason.

With the 61st overall pick, the Broncos looked to the TE position. Not Leonard Pope, Dominique Byrd, or Joe Klopfenstein. No no, the Broncos decided to take Western Michigan star Tony Scheffler. "Who's Todd Shishler???"

Tony Scheffler

Combine: 4.54 second 40-yard dash, 17 bench press reps

Western Michigan: 1,345 yards, 13 TDs

All Scheffler has done is set Broncos receiving records for a TE through this point in his career. He is a playmaker, and a major mismatch for linebackers and safeties in the NFL.



Round Four

Right after New England selected Steven Gostkowski with the 118th overall pick, the Broncos found a diamond in the rough. With the 119th overall pick, the Broncos selected Central Florida WR Brandon Marshall, a former safety.

Brandon Marshall

2nd Team All C-USA

Marshall was fifth in the NFL in 2007 with 102 catches, and was first among receivers in yards after the catch. He has vaulted himself into the NFL's elite receivers in 2008, and currently leads the NFL in receptions.

Seven picks later, the Broncos decided to end the wait of the reigning NCAA Defensive Player of the Year Elvis Dumervil.

Elvis Dumervil

NCAA Defensive Player of the Year

Leads the Broncos in the last two seasons with 21 sacks, and had a Pro Bowl caliber 2007 campaign with 12.5 sacks.

The Broncos also drafted current Giants KR/WR Domenik Hixon with a compensation pick in the fourth round, but released him after a series of fumbles and injuries early in his career. Hixon is one of the most dangerous return men in the game today.



Round Five

In the fifth round, Denver got another steal with current starting RG Chris Kuper, an unheralded lineman out of North Dakota.



The Broncos got their worth out of the 2006 draft, and may have netted themselves four or five future Pro Bowlers. This draft has set them up in very good shape for the 2008 season, and thanks to the production of this class they are legitimate Super Bowl threats.

[gobroncsnv]

Sometimes, all it takes is one player to be the difference between very good and sucks; in our OL, it's Clady. With the Titans and their DL, it's Haynesworth. With the Colts, it's Sanders. With SD it's Merriman.



Absolutely, O... I was watching the OU/TX game today, and the Sooners were pretty much dictating the game to the Horns' offense, until the starting LB went out, and after that, Texas turned the game around, because the second string guy couldn't pull the sled as hard as the alpha male... That LB was the heart of their defense, and once he was gone, the defense got ordinarier... Makes you wonder who our D might be either missing, or just needing to step up. (or did it happen last week?)

[omac]

Absolutely, O... I was watching the OU/TX game today, and the Sooners were pretty much dictating the game to the Horns' offense, until the starting LB went out, and after that, Texas turned the game around, because the second string guy couldn't pull the sled as hard as the alpha male... That LB was the heart of their defense, and once he was gone, the defense got ordinarier... Makes you wonder who our D might be either missing, or just needing to step up. (or did it happen last week?)

Good example. :salute:

Marcus Thomas is playing pretty good, but I'm hoping a light turns on soon and he becomes the Hulk! :D

[omac]

Great post Omac. :salute:

By the way I meant to add this to post.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/59293-2006-draft-revisited-denver-broncos-shine-above-the-rest

2006 Draft Revisited: Denver Broncos Shine above the Rest
Sayre Bedinger writes that the Broncos came away from the 2006 draft with a smile on their face...because they knew they just made every other team look stupid.
by Sayre Bedinger (Member)
3 958 reads
History
September 19, 2008
Today's Must Reads
Is Ty Willingham Racist?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bleacher Report NFL Power Rankings: Week Six
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How To Use Las Vegas Lines To Score Fantasy PointsDenver went into the 2006 draft looking to improve a team that just went 13-3, and made it to the AFC Championship game. Instead of aiming for the present, head coach Mike Shanahan looked into the future, and made a move that shocked Bronco nation.



Round One

The Rams were on the clock at pick No. 11, and Matt Leinart had just fallen to the Cardinals at the previous pick. Leinart's fall was the talk of the day, because he was absolutely not supposed to have dropped into the Cardinals laps. Little did NFL fans know that the true steal of the draft was to come about 20 minutes later, when the AFC Runner-up Denver Broncos traded up to get Vanderbilt quarterback Jay Cutler.

The pick was not a popular one, as analysts and fans felt the Broncos needed only a top-tier WR to take it to the next level. Shanahan knew what he was doing.

Cutler, the most unheralded SEC Offensive Player of the Year of all time became the first top 11 draft pick for Denver in more than a decade. The Broncos acquired an extra first round draft pick in exchange for Jason Campbell the previous year, and used that (15th overall) and the 68th overall pick to trade up for Cutler.

Jay Cutler

Combine: 4.7 second 40-yard dash, 24 bench press reps

SEC Offensive Player of the Year



Round Two

In round two, the Broncos traded for WR Javon Walker from Green Bay. Walker was an excellent addition in his first year in Denver. He was the explosive weapon the Broncos craved, but he was injured in 2007 and released in the offseason.

With the 61st overall pick, the Broncos looked to the TE position. Not Leonard Pope, Dominique Byrd, or Joe Klopfenstein. No no, the Broncos decided to take Western Michigan star Tony Scheffler. "Who's Todd Shishler???"

Tony Scheffler

Combine: 4.54 second 40-yard dash, 17 bench press reps

Western Michigan: 1,345 yards, 13 TDs

All Scheffler has done is set Broncos receiving records for a TE through this point in his career. He is a playmaker, and a major mismatch for linebackers and safeties in the NFL.



Round Four

Right after New England selected Steven Gostkowski with the 118th overall pick, the Broncos found a diamond in the rough. With the 119th overall pick, the Broncos selected Central Florida WR Brandon Marshall, a former safety.

Brandon Marshall

2nd Team All C-USA

Marshall was fifth in the NFL in 2007 with 102 catches, and was first among receivers in yards after the catch. He has vaulted himself into the NFL's elite receivers in 2008, and currently leads the NFL in receptions.

Seven picks later, the Broncos decided to end the wait of the reigning NCAA Defensive Player of the Year Elvis Dumervil.

Elvis Dumervil

NCAA Defensive Player of the Year

Leads the Broncos in the last two seasons with 21 sacks, and had a Pro Bowl caliber 2007 campaign with 12.5 sacks.

The Broncos also drafted current Giants KR/WR Domenik Hixon with a compensation pick in the fourth round, but released him after a series of fumbles and injuries early in his career. Hixon is one of the most dangerous return men in the game today.



Round Five

In the fifth round, Denver got another steal with current starting RG Chris Kuper, an unheralded lineman out of North Dakota.



The Broncos got their worth out of the 2006 draft, and may have netted themselves four or five future Pro Bowlers. This draft has set them up in very good shape for the 2008 season, and thanks to the production of this class they are legitimate Super Bowl threats.

Nice article, TXBRONC! :salute:

Hixon's played well in Plaxico's absense. I don't know if Hixon is considered one of the most dangerous return men, though. And I don't know if Kuper is Probowl material, but he's pretty solid.

The Gotkowski pick really makes NE look foolish; they got a kicker instead of one of the best WRs in the league. :D

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Yeah...but we also passed on BMarsh a few times. Gostkowski is a badass K and one can hardly argue w/ the moves they made. They needed a K and ended up w/ Randy Moss. I hardly think they look THAT stupid.

[omac]

Yeah...but we also passed on BMarsh a few times. Gostkowski is a badass K and one can hardly argue w/ the moves they made. They needed a K and ended up w/ Randy Moss. I hardly think they look THAT stupid.

I'm not knocking the front office of the Pats. They looked foolish based on how the article presented them, because they made it look like Bellichick picked a kicker over a game-changing wide receiver. Only Al Davis would intentionaly do something like that (Janikowski in the 1st round?). :D

[Broncolingus]

"Denver pursuing a DL via trade"

Some folks - still - actually think this isn't a priority...

"Garrard falls shy of 300 yards: Playing their best all-around game of the season, the Jaguars got superb performances from quarterback David Garrard and running back Maurice Jones-Drew, plus three takeaways by their defense in a 24-17 win over the bumbling Broncos on a cold, misty Sunday (Week 6). Garrard completed 25 of 34 passes for 276 yards, one TD and no interceptions. Garrard threw a 30-yard touchdown to Marcedes Lewis in the third quarter and had 69-yard completion to Troy Williamson at the Denver 3 was negated by tackle Khalif Barnes' holding penalty."

[jrelway]

the front office best hurry up before deadline approaches. something has to be done.

[MOtorboat]

the front office best hurry up before deadline approaches. something has to be done.

I wouldn't get your hopes up.

[Broncolingus]

I wouldn't get your hopes up.

Agreed...

(unfortunately)

[LRtagger]

"Denver pursuing a DL via trade"

Some folks - still - actually think this isn't a priority...

Who still doesn't think DL is a priority? I think 99% of this site will agree that DL is our biggest priority.

The problem is great DLmen dont just magically appear. There are maybe two (if even that) DLmen that might be available in a trade - and even they are mediocre. And the 2009 draft class does not look strong on the DLine. If we reach in the first for a DT or DE, we will end up in the same position we are now with Moss who was a REACH. We need to sit tight in 09 and pick the best LB or S available in the first and attack the DL from there on out. There should be plenty of potential in the later rounds at DL.

If we select DLmen in later rounds as projects, thats infinitely better than taking a 1st round DL project (Moss). At least if we go BPA we will have a solid rookie STARTER who can make an immedate impact.

[Lonestar]

Who still doesn't think DL is a priority? I think 99% of this site will agree that DL is our biggest priority.

The problem is great DLmen dont just magically appear. There are maybe two (if even that) DLmen that might be available in a trade - and even they are mediocre. And the 2009 draft class does not look strong on the DLine. If we reach in the first for a DT or DE, we will end up in the same position we are now with Moss who was a REACH. We need to sit tight in 09 and pick the best LB or S available in the first and attack the DL from there on out. There should be plenty of potential in the later rounds at DL.

If we select DLmen in later rounds as projects, thats infinitely better than taking a 1st round DL project (Moss). At least if we go BPA we will have a solid rookie STARTER who can make an immedate impact.

yet without the DLINE being at least decent how much impact can a Safety or MLB be..

Best way to look at that Lewis had a couple of bad years a few years ago with many thinking he hwas washed up.. and that was attributed to his DLine starters being out injured..

[hamrob]

I certainly agree that we need to improve on our Dline. However, watching yesterday's game, I couldn't believe just how poor our Safeties were. Our dline was actually getting pressure on the QB and Webster (who I'm not a big fan of) was playing well. But, Manual and Mcree were beaten time after time and couldn't make a tackle to save their lives.

Sure, Engleberger had me wondering how we can't find someone better then him...but I also wondered how much improved we'd be if we had a couple decent safeties.

Wow...our defense needs alot of work!

[LRtagger]

yet without the DLINE being at least decent how much impact can a Safety or MLB be..

Best way to look at that Lewis had a couple of bad years a few years ago with many thinking he hwas washed up.. and that was attributed to his DLine starters being out injured..

Watch yesterday's game again to see how a Safety can impact your defensive play. Manuel is just plain terrible. He was on the LOS outside the DE and couldnt make any tackles at the LOS. If he can't support the DL by making a tackle, what is the point of putting him up there?

Also look at Indy. They have a decent DL, but their defense falls apart without Sanders.

I'm not arguing that DL is not our biggest need (because I agree that it is), but why take a 2nd round DLman in the 1st, when we can get a 1st round safety or LB in the 1st?

[Lonestar]

Watch yesterday's game again to see how a Safety can impact your defensive play. Manuel is just plain terrible. He was on the LOS outside the DE and couldnt make any tackles at the LOS. If he can't support the DL by making a tackle, what is the point of putting him up there?

Also look at Indy. They have a decent DL, but their defense falls apart without Sanders.

I'm not arguing that DL is not our biggest need (because I agree that it is), but why take a 2nd round DLman in the 1st, when we can get a 1st round safety or LB in the 1st?

look at Indy sure, their talent on their DLINE is still better than ours.. trade them straight up DL's and then lets talk about how much impact the Safety makes..

Sanders is the catalyst for making it work in INDY great but do you honestly think having him in DEN would make alot of difference?

I'm not opposed to drafting a great safety have been an advocate for years since Atwater left and now since John is gone we have a couple of castoffs trying to do something there..

I want to fix the real issue and that is a the LOS win there and everyone else LOOKS better.. maybe even mcree.. but I doubt it..

[LRtagger]

look at Indy sure, their talent on their DLINE is still better than ours.. trade them straight up DL's and then lets talk about how much impact the Safety makes..

Sanders is the catalyst for making it work in INDY great but do you honestly think having him in DEN would make alot of difference?



I think we are agreeing with each other, just a misunderstanding.

What I meant was Indy DOES have a decent DL (much better than ours), but their defense looks lost without Sanders in the game. I'm not saying if we had Sanders that we would instantly be a great D. But at the same time, even if we had their DL, our safeties still cant cover OR tackle.

What I meant was that our Defense is in a position of need that we can draft BPA instead of trying to reach for a DLman. I think BPA in the first will be Safety or MLB, not DL. Just because DL is our biggest need does not mean we HAVE to draft one in the 1st. We have so many needs on D that the best way to address them is go with BPA. We are not going to fix our D by selecting a DLman with pick 23 that should be going 35+

[Ziggy]

the front office best hurry up before deadline approaches. something has to be done.

There is no 1 player out there that is going to turn this D around, and the price is always inflated for players at the deadline. To give up draft picks for an average D lineman would be a mistake IMO, and you're not going to get a top shelf lineman in the middle of the season. Let's spend some more draft picks and some money on a FA or 2 in the offseason. This team isn't going to win the Super Bowl this season, so why mortgage the future to win 1 or 2 more games? Powell may be the impact run stopper that we've been looking for. He may give us a boost next season, then you can look at guys like Haynseworth, Peppers, Suggs, and whoever else in on the market after the 2008 season is over.

[Broncolingus]

Who still doesn't think DL is a priority? I think 99% of this site will agree that DL is our biggest priority.

The problem is great DLmen dont just magically appear. There are maybe two (if even that) DLmen that might be available in a trade - and even they are mediocre. And the 2009 draft class does not look strong on the DLine. If we reach in the first for a DT or DE, we will end up in the same position we are now with Moss who was a REACH. We need to sit tight in 09 and pick the best LB or S available in the first and attack the DL from there on out. There should be plenty of potential in the later rounds at DL.

If we select DLmen in later rounds as projects, thats infinitely better than taking a 1st round DL project (Moss). At least if we go BPA we will have a solid rookie STARTER who can make an immedate impact.

Not disagreeing with ya, tagger...

Certainly not saying Slow-lick is the answer, or Denver has the best LBs and DBs in the NFL, or Denver can just go get 4 All-Pro linemen in one offseason...

My opinion, and just my opinion, is that ANY NFL team that has success in the postseason must have a good or above average line (both offensive and defensive) and that's something Denver has lacked on the defensive side of the ball for almost 10 years now.

I think the D-line for the Superbowl Teams were good and maybe slightly above average and our offensive - and our outstanding offensive line - was able to make up for the d-line (defense) not being stellar.

I also think that when a team has a good / above average D-line, you can get away with less a less 'good' secondary.

I do not think the opposite is true...

I think you're right, the defense overall needs a lot of help whether it's players, coaches, etc...

[Lonestar]

I think we are agreeing with each other, just a misunderstanding.

What I meant was Indy DOES have a decent DL (much better than ours), but their defense looks lost without Sanders in the game. I'm not saying if we had Sanders that we would instantly be a great D. But at the same time, even if we had their DL, our safeties still cant cover OR tackle.

What I meant was that our Defense is in a position of need that we can draft BPA instead of trying to reach for a DLman. I think BPA in the first will be Safety or MLB, not DL. Just because DL is our biggest need does not mean we HAVE to draft one in the 1st. We have so many needs on D that the best way to address them is go with BPA. We are not going to fix our D by selecting a DLman with pick 23 that should be going 35+

I can dig it.. I'd rather try to move up and get a top rated DT or DE if we can.. But Not all that sure that I want anyone from our scouting making recommendations to mikey about it.. we have been less than successful in drafting DL in DEN..

Move up or move back just do not reach on them.. But then of course doing what is necessary to shore up the DL is IMHO the most important thing we can do.. If that does mean taking a #40 pick at 22 then that is what we have to do.. Opposed to taking someone else at say WR or TE just because he was scheduled to go about there..

[LRtagger]

I can dig it.. I'd rather try to move up and get a top rated DT or DE if we can.. But Not all that sure that I want anyone from our scouting making recommendations to mikey about it.. we have been less than successful in drafting DL in DEN..

Move up or move back just do not reach on them.. But then of course doing what is necessary to shore up the DL is IMHO the most important thing we can do.. If that does mean taking a #40 pick at 22 then that is what we have to do.. Opposed to taking someone else at say WR or TE just because he was scheduled to go about there..

I agree completely that taking a player that we do not need at our pick would be dumb. I guess when I say BPA, I should really say BNPA (best needed player available). We have so many holes on D that I think we should end up with a great 1st round pick between S, LB, DL. I just dont want us to reach for DL if we can draft a great 1st round S or MLB which is also a huge need IMO.

[lex]

I agree completely that taking a player that we do not need at our pick would be dumb. I guess when I say BPA, I should really say BNPA (best needed player available). We have so many holes on D that I think we should end up with a great 1st round pick between S, LB, DL. I just dont want us to reach for DL if we can draft a great 1st round S or MLB which is also a huge need IMO.

If we're drafting in the 20s, I think Mack would be the BPA and someone who could help us. Also, I think there is enough quality at S out there that someone who is good could be had in the 2nd or possibly even 3rd. I think the saturation range for DTs is 2-4th. DE is too much of a crap shoot to really commit a 1st round pick towards. Its better to pick someone you feel confident that can come in and contribute and offer improvement regardless of position. And since in the draft, interior offensive linemen tend to be undervalued and also since we could improve at our run blocking, Mack is a good choice to improve our running game. He really gets after people.

[topscribe]

I can dig it.. I'd rather try to move up and get a top rated DT or DE if we can.. But Not all that sure that I want anyone from our scouting making recommendations to mikey about it.. we have been less than successful in drafting DL in DEN..

Move up or move back just do not reach on them.. But then of course doing what is necessary to shore up the DL is IMHO the most important thing we can do.. If that does mean taking a #40 pick at 22 then that is what we have to do.. Opposed to taking someone else at say WR or TE just because he was scheduled to go about there..

Well, you make sense. However, If I'm sitting at #22, and whom I want is at
#40, then I would try like crazy to maneuver into the position where that
player would not be such a reach because now I'm taking a 2nd rounder in the
1st round. If you can find someone to go along with that, then the value
difference should bring another draft choice, player, or whatever.

FWIW.

-----

[WARHORSE]

As Ive stated many times, need, priority, the needs of the other teams, other teams draft strategies, players available, players taken, etc, etc are going to determine your draft more than anything else. The only team that has an unfettered pick outside of team need is the team with the first pick.


Our safeties suck badly, and I mean badly. They couldnt tackle a dead cow. And their ball skills are non existent.

Good safeties would make a big difference in our defense, and Im all for trying out guys like Boss and Woodyard there right now, cause it couldnt hurt. If we are willing to move into 3-4 packages without the best personel to do it with, we may as well try and get the best guys on the field...........like Woodyard, imo.

[Ziggy]

As Ive stated many times, need, priority, the needs of the other teams, other teams draft strategies, players available, players taken, etc, etc are going to determine your draft more than anything else. The only team that has an unfettered pick outside of team need is the team with the first pick.


Our safeties suck badly, and I mean badly. They couldnt tackle a dead cow. And their ball skills are non existent.

Good safeties would make a big difference in our defense, and Im all for trying out guys like Boss and Woodyard there right now, cause it couldnt hurt. If we are willing to move into 3-4 packages without the best personel to do it with, we may as well try and get the best guys on the field...........like Woodyard, imo.

I'd throw Barrett in that group too. He can't do any worse than Mcree and Manual.

[LRtagger]

I'd throw Barrett in that group too. He can't do any worse than Mcree and Manual.

We would have to make a cut to bring him onto the roster, though.

[dogfish]

We would have to make a cut to bring him onto the roster, though.

that's fine, manuel's expendable. . . . :D




:frusty:

[TXBRONC]

that's fine, manuel's expendable. . . . :D




:frusty:

Barrett is on the practice squad, so I wonder if he is ready to play.

[LRtagger]

that's fine, manuel's expendable. . . . :D




:frusty:

Or that other no-name safety that we recently picked up off the street. I dont remember his name.

[dogfish]

Barrett is on the practice squad, so I wonder if he is ready to play.


probably not. . . on the other hand, i have pretty serious misgivings about whether the safeties currently on the starting roster are ready to play, either. . . . :doh:











(FRT, i'm kidding about cutting one of them and bringing up barrett. . . . well, sort of. . . if things don't get better i may be advocating for it in all seriousness soon)

[LRtagger]

(FRT, i'm kidding about cutting one of them and bringing up barrett. . . . well, sort of. . . if things don't get better i may be advocating for it in all seriousness soon)


I am not opposed to seeing him get some PT by any means.


PS Veron Fox was the scrub I was trying to think of.

[WARHORSE]

Right now, I hear LJ, Corey Redding and Kitna are all on the block.

Id take Redding and give up as much as a conditional 3rd 4th to get him. I happen to think that playing in a lockeroom like Detroits has got to get to you. Hes already been paid the chunk of his money in his SB, but this guy can pressure hard up the gut. Maybe he only played hard in his contract year so far, but at least you know he can play. Perhaps getting tired of the same old same old in Detroit has this team mentally tired of playing. That goes a long ways towards performance.

I think a new lockeroom would be a big help to him. He can play DE in the 3-4 sets as well.

He wont fix our safeties though.

They couldnt tackle a man sized fly strip, and couldnt cover a week old turd in the grass.