Moss to OLB

[D1g1tal j1m]

Per a story in the post, Moss is being looked at at OLB.

Is a 3-4 mix being experimented with?

I guess he is just not strong enough to come off the edge in the down position. He has the speed and if he can get a head start on the tackle that may help him get to the QB.

Interesting anyways.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_10652224?source=rss

Shanahan: Moss could move to LB

Broncos coach Mike Shanahan on Monday said that defensive end Jarvis Moss, the team's first-round draft pick in 2007, could play at outside linebacker.

"He's right there in the 240 range and he still has his speed," Shanahan said. "You may see him some as a defensive end and some as an outside linebacker, so we've got the abilities to do some things with Jarvis that we haven't done in the past."

Moss has been a healthy scratch in three of the Broncos' five games this season, including Sunday's win against Tampa. He does not fit as well into the 3-4 scheme the team has used at times in the past few games.

Moss, officially listed at 265 pounds, played in six games in 2007 before breaking his right leg. He has one career sack.

Broncos re-add Mustard to ranks

The Broncos on Monday re-signed tight end Chad Mustard and released offensive lineman Dylan Gandy.

Mustard played for the Broncos in 2006 and 2007 and was among the team's final cuts after the preseason.







P

[BroncoJoe]

We were playing the 3-4 yesterday on a few downs.

Save the nose-tackle position, I do think we have the personnel to do it.

[D1g1tal j1m]

If we use it 5 - 10 times a game (the 3-4) then I am ok with it.

[claymore]

I like any way we can find to not lose on this kid. We invested allot, and shit im down with any position he can excell out. I hope it works out.

[Buff]

If nothing else, this will boost his potential trade value... I would think a team would be more willing to give up a draft pick to use him as a 3-4 OLB prospect than a 4-3 end.

[underrated29]

VERY VERY interesting... very interesting....... I know shanny likes the 4-3 best, and would love to hybrid in some 3-4 a little during games. he has talked about this for a few years....But i am wondering, depending on how our draft goes and who is available, if we might lean more towards a 3-4..

Essentailly we cant lose that way. In the draft we would be able to look at the best available player for a 3-4 or a 4-3. Who ever isnt there, the other might very well be. And since to me, only 1 position that is of our top needs, fits this priority....DT- we dont have to move up if a beast 4-3 DT is there, when we can stay pat if there is another beast 3-4 DT available. or visa versa.

MLB and S wont really matter as much which defense we are running or drafting for. MLB a little more than S, but we could be freeing ourselves up to really get the best available player by waiting instead of moving up and losing picks/players.......................Or I could be totally wrong, again...........

But its still interesting.

[NameUsedBefore]

Broncos re-add Mustard to ranks

Lol...


And I like the move.

[broncofanatic1987]

Whatever it takes to justify Moss' spot on the roster. If it works, it might really help the defense.

[Grover]

If they are going to convert Moss to a 3-4 OLB, then I think this is a developmental move and he won't be playing much this year. We only use the 3-4 sparingly, and to get on the field Moss would need not suck worse than than either Winborn or Boss Bailey.

What would he get, five plays a game? Eight plays if he goes in at DE when we're doing 4-3? All that money, so little (playing) time.

[rcsodak]

And still.....


...Crowder is a joke!

Maybe they can bulk him up, if his widdle butt will allow, and move him inside where he prolly belongs. He's too slow for the outside, and gets lost out there.

Crowder=Texass Turd.

[Lonestar]

Just another way to justify another DAFT mistake.

Does he have the speed to cover down field.. is some TE, RB or slot guy gonna twist him inside out.. sorry but grasping at straws ring a bell..

Just curious who is gonna play NT in a 3-4 defense.. no knees Robertson who left the Jets because he stunk it up there as one..

Spin control by the spin Meister..

[Tned]

Just another way to justify another DAFT mistake.

Does he have the speed to cover down field.. is some TE, RB or slot guy gonna twist him inside out.. sorry but grasping at straws ring a bell..

Just curious who is gonna play NT in a 3-4 defense.. no knees Robertson who left the Jets because he stunk it up there as one..

Spin control by the spin Meister..

Shanahan doesn't have to "justify" anything, he is as secure as a head coach gets.

As to NT, Peterson played on several (possibly all) of the 3-4 snaps.

[Lonestar]

Shanahan doesn't have to "justify" anything, he is as secure as a head coach gets.

As to NT, Peterson played on several (possibly all) of the 3-4 snaps.



YOU do not really believe that do you? I suspect he is getting heat or Pat would not have been a vocal as he was in the off season about the direction the club is going shying away from FA and instead building via the draft.. And please do not tell me this was mikeys idea..


Peterson yep he's the man.. just the guy I'd draft to play the position..

[BroncoAV06]

Just another way to justify another DAFT mistake.

Does he have the speed to cover down field.. is some TE, RB or slot guy gonna twist him inside out.. sorry but grasping at straws ring a bell..

Just curious who is gonna play NT in a 3-4 defense.. no knees Robertson who left the Jets because he stunk it up there as one..

Spin control by the spin Meister..

What else do you want them to do? Of course they have to grasp at straws at the moment; Find a way to get the kid involved somehow. Its not like he has to be a freak to cover TE/RB, if he can at least make some plays, just look at Ware in Dallas, I am not saying that is what Moss will be but he is not fleet of foot, he attacks the passer and make tackles, if Moss can try to do that in situations then why not?

[G_Money]

If he can be shown to be effective in a 3-4 then we can either play him in our weird-ass version of a 3-4 (I think I even saw a touch of the 46 out there on Sunday...) or we can trade him to a 3-4 team for some spare change.

He's obviously not gonna be allowed to play in our 4-3 for whatever reason, so see what you can do with him. The more playing time he gets, the more chance there is that a light goes on and he figures out how to play the pro game.

I normally wait a full 2 years to call it either way on DL, but Crowder and Moss being inactive all the time sure shows me what Mike thinks of those guys.

It's definitely a problem, especially if we draft more DL on the first day next year to try to fill the gaps that should have been filled with that '07 draft.

Thank god Harris is currently working out from that draft at least - here's hoping his back stays strong.

~G

[Tned]

YOU do not really believe that do you? I suspect he is getting heat or Pat would not have been a vocal as he was in the off season about the direction the club is going shying away from FA and instead building via the draft.. And please do not tell me this was mikeys idea..


Peterson yep he's the man.. just the guy I'd draft to play the position..

Guess that's why you aren't a GM ;)

I don't presume to read minds and know what Bowlen and Shanahan talk about. Maybe the lack of FA activity had somethng to do with the Broncos' reported cash crunch.

However, going beyond that, there is zero evidence they have 'switched' directions to building via the draft vs. FA. Shanahan always starts the best play at each position. Since the last few drafts have been better, more of those guys are on the field.

[omac]

Since Moss and Crowder were Jim Bates' picks, I guess Moss was expected to be out wide as a DE to get a better angle at attacking the QB. Since Bates and his scheme was scrapped, maybe Moss can develop into a good OLB here.

I'm concerned that maybe the injury made him lose some quickness, though. Coming out of college, he was supposed to have a good burst attacking the QB; everytime I see him on the field, he just looks slow. Maybe that's one reason he didn't want to gain extra weight.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Am I the only one who see him as a 4-3 OLB, w/ DJ possible AGAIN moving inside? IF Moss can play outside (and it's a big "if"), then DJ can solidify the middle...thus allowing us more defensive flexibility and fewer immediate needs come draft time.

[BroncoAV06]

Am I the only one who see him as a 4-3 OLB, w/ DJ possible AGAIN moving inside? IF Moss can play outside (and it's a big "if"), then DJ can solidify the middle...thus allowing us more defensive flexibility and fewer immediate needs come draft time.

Keep DJ where he is at, he is making tackles and all over the field. I see your point but DJ is just such a playmaker on the outside. As for the MLB spot, it is one IMO that is not hard to get a player though the draft and plug him right in.

[TXBRONC]

Just another way to justify another DAFT mistake.

Does he have the speed to cover down field.. is some TE, RB or slot guy gonna twist him inside out.. sorry but grasping at straws ring a bell..

Just curious who is gonna play NT in a 3-4 defense.. no knees Robertson who left the Jets because he stunk it up there as one..

Spin control by the spin Meister..

Moss was a Jim Bates pick. :coffee:

[TXBRONC]

Since Moss and Crowder were Jim Bates' picks, I guess Moss was expected to be out wide as a DE to get a better angle at attacking the QB. Since Bates and his scheme was scrapped, maybe Moss can develop into a good OLB here.

I'm concerned that maybe the injury made him lose some quickness, though. Coming out of college, he was supposed to have a good burst attacking the QB; everytime I see him on the field, he just looks slow. Maybe that's one reason he didn't want to gain extra weight.

Exactly Moss and Crowder were Bates' picks. There are some fans that have beat that drum on many occasions. Since Moss is struggling it's Shanahan's fault and if he weren't struggling then obviously it would the "genius" Bates that Moss is here.

[TXBRONC]

Guess that's why you aren't a GM ;)

I don't presume to read minds and know what Bowlen and Shanahan talk about. Maybe the lack of FA activity had something to do with the Broncos' reported cash crunch.

However, going beyond that, there is zero evidence they have 'switched' directions to building via the draft vs. FA. Shanahan always starts the best play at each position. Since the last few drafts have been better, more of those guys are on the field.

Same here, I've never been a mind reader nor pretend to know what Shanahan and Bowlen talk about.

[WARHORSE]

YOU do not really believe that do you? I suspect he is getting heat or Pat would not have been a vocal as he was in the off season about the direction the club is going shying away from FA and instead building via the draft.. And please do not tell me this was mikeys idea..


Peterson yep he's the man.. just the guy I'd draft to play the position..

LOL.

Thats the funniest thing Ive heard yet. Shanny getting heat about the direction of the club, and Bowlen being vocal? The only thing Bowlen was vocal about was his STAUNCH stand and belief in his headcoach. And the only heat Shanny is getting is that from his suntanning spa, 4 saunas, thirteen jacuzzis, heated driveway and lawn, solar systems galore, and just plain hot water in his heated three swimming pools at his mansion hes building. Oh, and also that which he gets from MRS. Shanahan. Ole Shanny can still shake a leg.


A smart man, that Pat Bowlen. I think hes so smart, hes gonna win two superbowls in the next four years.:coffee:

[Lonestar]

Guess that's why you aren't a GM ;)

I don't presume to read minds and know what Bowlen and Shanahan talk about. Maybe the lack of FA activity had somethng to do with the Broncos' reported cash crunch.

However, going beyond that, there is zero evidence they have 'switched' directions to building via the draft vs. FA. Shanahan always starts the best play at each position. Since the last few drafts have been better, more of those guys are on the field.


lets see everyone touting the 05 draft who's left.. Paymah ahahahahah

06 pretty good so far..

07 maybe Harris will last, Thomas might be a backup.. top two are toast.. and we are not yet through season 1.5..

08 way to soon to tell.. but odds are 2 maybe 3 survive training camp #3.

Which is about par for the course..

One of these days Y'all will see the light about how much farther ahead we would be with a real GM..

[*Atwater*]

And still.....


...Crowder is a joke!

Maybe they can bulk him up, if his widdle butt will allow, and move him inside where he prolly belongs. He's too slow for the outside, and gets lost out there.

Crowder=Texass Turd.

As a Texas fan I would love nothing more than to see Crowder succeed in the NFL but right now it does not look like that will happen. :frown:

[Lonestar]

Moss was a Jim Bates pick. :coffee:

sure he was and you do not think that mikey approved of it ,, you know signed off on it.. Who was the guy that gave him the bonus and approved the move up a few spots to get him.. Trading away a #3 to make the move.

Yeah your correct, it was all Bates..

[Lonestar]

LOL.

Thats the funniest thing Ive heard yet. Shanny getting heat about the direction of the club, and Bowlen being vocal? The only thing Bowlen was vocal about was his STAUNCH stand and belief in his headcoach. And the only heat Shanny is getting is that from his suntanning spa, 4 saunas, thirteen jacuzzis, heated driveway and lawn, solar systems galore, and just plain hot water in his heated three swimming pools at his mansion hes building. Oh, and also that which he gets from MRS. Shanahan. Ole Shanny can still shake a leg.


A smart man, that Pat Bowlen. I think hes so smart, hes gonna win two superbowls in the next four years.:coffee:

not gonna happen until they fix the DL and that will not happen with band aids..

Last week everyone was calling for slowicks head.

Lets see what happened? We held TPA that POWERHOUSE to less than 20 points..

if this was not so funny it would be scary..

[G_Money]

lets see everyone touting the 05 draft who's left.. Paymah ahahahahah

06 pretty good so far..

07 maybe Harris will last, Thomas might be a backup.. top two are toast.. and we are not yet through season 1.5..

08 way to soon to tell.. but odds are 2 maybe 3 survive training camp #3.

Which is about par for the course..

One of these days Y'all will see the light about how much farther ahead we would be with a real GM..

Se here's where i disagree a bit.

05 was not a good draft. Not because D-Will isn't around to work out, but because if you're drafting the same position with your top 3 picks it means you have no idea how to evaluate talent and don't believe in your choices. It would obviously be better if D-Will was still here, but regardless it wasn't a shining moment.

06 has been great beyond all boundless measure. There isn't a way to have a better draft than that. In their third seasons Cutler is possibly the best QB in the league, or at least playing like it, Marshall might be the most dangerous and prolific wide receiver, Scheffler is a top 5 pass-catching TE when healthy, Dumerville's already achieved a double-digit sack season and is starting, Hixon is a great return man and backup receiver (though sadly not for us any longer), Kuper looks like he has a Pro Bowl in his future at guard, and even the Javon Walker trade is putting the screws to Al Davis right now. It doesn't get any better than that. The difference between this draft and the previous several before it is...astonishing.

07 is, well, a current trainwreck with the bright spot of Harris this season and the fallback of a rotational DT in Thomas who seems to be learning some more about the position this year. It was always gonna be a draft that proved out - or failed - after several years. All DL are projects and with Moss and Thomas we made it an extra-crispy round of projecthood. The flushed picks still loom large. Getting rid of picks is fine if you get the right guy or you can't draft, but now that we apparently CAN draft we need to not flush em for no reason.

08 already looks great, and with a few more years before the vintage really ripens there's loads more room for success. Clady and Royal ALONE would make it a good draft if they continue in this vein. The rest of the guys still have time to turn into gooduns in their own right.

07 is brutal for those of us who want to build through the draft. Lost picks and project picks are hampering us. We can blame them on being "Bates Guys" but why would Shanahan give a draft over to a DC when he goes through them like wet newspaper anyway? If he and the Goodmans have found the way to draft for success, then giving up an entire draft to a guy who was only trusted to run his scheme for 4 weeks still counts as a mistake.

But 2-3 picks per draft working out as starters is all you can reasonably ask, even from good drafts. If Thomas turns into a monster run-stopper and Harris becomes the next Lepsis at RT then the draft has been a success, whatever more it MIGHT have been.

The reason the 07 draft hurts so much is we based most of our DL on that draft the last two years, and it's been atrocious. That was a silly thing to do with defensive linemen needing 2-3 years to blossom or rot on the vine, but it was apparently our master plan.

As much as we want the DL fixed ASAP, going all in again in the draft and looking AGAIN for immediate results would be extremely foolhardy. As long as the 07 draft nets us a couple of starters and it serves to remind Shanahan of the myriad flaws in that plan, then I can choke down Moss and his utter ineptitude thus far, as well as the picks flushed to get him and then to recover to get Thomas later.

I can't say that the last 3 years haven't been VERY different drafts than what came before. They have been. Two of the three for good reasons, too.

Keep that up. And try to turn Moss into a useful piece, somehow, while you're at it. Getting a DL coach who can teach DL how to succeed might help... :welcome:

~G

[TXBRONC]

LOL.

Thats the funniest thing Ive heard yet. Shanny getting heat about the direction of the club, and Bowlen being vocal? The only thing Bowlen was vocal about was his STAUNCH stand and belief in his headcoach. And the only heat Shanny is getting is that from his suntanning spa, 4 saunas, thirteen jacuzzis, heated driveway and lawn, solar systems galore, and just plain hot water in his heated three swimming pools at his mansion hes building. Oh, and also that which he gets from MRS. Shanahan. Ole Shanny can still shake a leg.


A smart man, that Pat Bowlen. I think hes so smart, hes gonna win two superbowls in the next four years.:coffee:

Yep Shanahan got so much heat that Ted Sundquist got fired.

[broncofaninfla]

If nothing else, this will boost his potential trade value... I would think a team would be more willing to give up a draft pick to use him as a 3-4 OLB prospect than a 4-3 end.

I think that is a great point. If anything he can at least contribute to the point where he has value to a team who runs the 3/4 full time.

I'm curious to see how Moss performs as a OLB. The knock on him is he doesn't play the run well and he does look slow and lost on the field. Maybe he steps it up here, not sure. I hope he does. I'd love to see the guy turn it on, time will tell.

I alos wonder if Denver is flirting with the idea of going 3/4 more often and maybe even switching in 09? Based on the personel we have now, it might be quicker to rebuild the defense with a 3/4 scheme than out current 4/3?

[TXBRONC]

sure he was and you do not think that mikey approved of it ,, you know signed off on it.. Who was the guy that gave him the bonus and approved the move up a few spots to get him.. Trading away a #3 to make the move.

Yeah your correct, it was all Bates..

I'm not the one that made the claim that Bates' was the "new Sheriff" in town. I'm also not the one approves of coaches being insubordinate to the head coach.

Sure Shanahan went along with Bates because he trusted that Bates knew what he was doing.

[Traveler]

Great breakdown G.

Let's see if we can identify a pattern here...


See here's where i disagree a bit.

05 was not a good draft. Not because D-Will isn't around to work out, but because if you're drafting the same position with your top 3 picks it means you have no idea how to evaluate talent and don't believe in your choices. It would obviously be better if D-Will was still here, but regardless it wasn't a shining moment.

Defensive Oriented Draft


06 has been great beyond all boundless measure. There isn't a way to have a better draft than that. In their third seasons Cutler is possibly the best QB in the league, or at least playing like it, Marshall might be the most dangerous and prolific wide receiver, Scheffler is a top 5 pass-catching TE when healthy, Dumerville's already achieved a double-digit sack season and is starting, Hixon is a great return man and backup receiver (though sadly not for us any longer), Kuper looks like he has a Pro Bowl in his future at guard, and even the Javon Walker trade is putting the screws to Al Davis right now. It doesn't get any better than that. The difference between this draft and the previous several before it is...astonishing.

Offensive Oriented Draft


07 is, well, a current trainwreck with the bright spot of Harris this season and the fallback of a rotational DT in Thomas who seems to be learning some more about the position this year. It was always gonna be a draft that proved out - or failed - after several years. All DL are projects and with Moss and Thomas we made it an extra-crispy round of projecthood. The flushed picks still loom large. Getting rid of picks is fine if you get the right guy or you can't draft, but now that we apparently CAN draft we need to not flush em for no reason.

Defensive Oriented Draft


08 already looks great, and with a few more years before the vintage really ripens there's loads more room for success. Clady and Royal ALONE would make it a good draft if they continue in this vein. The rest of the guys still have time to turn into gooduns in their own right.

Offensive Oriented Draft


07 is brutal for those of us who want to build through the draft. Lost picks and project picks are hampering us. We can blame them on being "Bates Guys" but why would Shanahan give a draft over to a DC when he goes through them like wet newspaper anyway? If he and the Goodmans have found the way to draft for success, then giving up an entire draft to a guy who was only trusted to run his scheme for 4 weeks still counts as a mistake.

But 2-3 picks per draft working out as starters is all you can reasonably ask, even from good drafts. If Thomas turns into a monster run-stopper and Harris becomes the next Lepsis at RT then the draft has been a success, whatever more it MIGHT have been.

The reason the 07 draft hurts so much is we based most of our DL on that draft the last two years, and it's been atrocious. That was a silly thing to do with defensive linemen needing 2-3 years to blossom or rot on the vine, but it was apparently our master plan.

As much as we want the DL fixed ASAP, going all in again in the draft and looking AGAIN for immediate results would be extremely foolhardy. As long as the 07 draft nets us a couple of starters and it serves to remind Shanahan of the myriad flaws in that plan, then I can choke down Moss and his utter ineptitude thus far, as well as the picks flushed to get him and then to recover to get Thomas later.

I can't say that the last 3 years haven't been VERY different drafts than what came before. They have been. Two of the three for good reasons, too.

Keep that up. And try to turn Moss into a useful piece, somehow, while you're at it. Getting a DL coach who can teach DL how to succeed might help... :welcome:

~G

I still think it's too early to give up on Moss and Crowder. Our problem has more to do with the numerous scheme changes, talent evaluation, and pitiful DL coaching.

Moss and Crowder have talent. They just aren't being used properly IMO. If Moss was a Bates pick and Bates wanted to line him up wide to utilize his speed off the edge, why won't they try that now on passing downs?

Since we don't see what's happening with Moss & Crowder in practice daily, we can only guess that the staff has given up on them becoming starters. Another mistake IMO. Someone mentioned how it took Justin Tuck 3 years before he made an impact with the Giants. Shouldn't the team a least do the same for them.

Moving Moss to LB when we already have 4 above average LB's already on the roster doesn't make sense to me. Who's he going to replace? Not DJ or Boss.

If you look at the drafts referenced above by G, it's obvious our FO has a better eye for offensive talent and are below average when selecting defensive players. It doesn't take a genius to understand what that should tell us.

[Traveler]

I also wonder if Denver is flirting with the idea of going 3/4 more often and maybe even switching in 09? Based on the personel we have now, it might be quicker to rebuild the defense with a 3/4 scheme than out current 4/3?

If that's the case, then wouldn't that make the trade for Robertson seem stupid? They specifically brought him in because he's better suited to play in the 4-3 defense.

This just seem more and more like there is no commitment to any one type of scheme and now we have a bunch of players we don't know how to best utilize their strengths.:mad:

[TXBRONC]

If that's the case, then wouldn't that make the trade for Robertson seem stupid? They specifically brought him in because he's better suited to play in the 4-3 defense.

This just seem more and more like there is no commitment to any one type of scheme and now we have a bunch of players we don't know how to best utilize their strengths.:mad:

I don't think it's a lack of commitment to any kind of scheme. The base defenes hasn't changed it's still a 4-3. One of the reason they implemented the 3-4 situationally was that it allows Winborn to get on the field with starting linebackers because they like him quite a bit. Using a 3-4 and now possibly adding Moss to the mix would possibly give him a chance rush the quarterback from a linebacker position rather than a down lineman.

This isn't the first time Denver has ever switched a defensive end to linebacker. You might recall if you're old enough to remember that on two occassions that I'm aware of this happened and it worked out well for us. Simon Fletcher, and Karl Mecklenberg were both undersized defensive ends and they both switched over to being linebackers with relative ease. I do admit that we running a 3-4 as the base defense at that time but if gives Moss a chance to get onto the field I'm all for it.

Here's some other food for thought from Mike Klis.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_10653355

Now both Tim Crowder and Jarvis Moss are sitting? What gives? It's not like we have a good defensive line, and these guys are not even suiting up.
Can we look forward to seeing these guys play this season?
-- Jeremey, Anchorage, Alaska

Jeremey - Let's go back to that 2007 draft. The Broncos had a new defensive coordinator with proven NFL success in Jim Bates. He brought with him a unique defensive system that required specific-type players at each position. Moss, in the first round, and Crowder, in the second round, were selected in large part because Bates liked the way those players fit his system.

But after five games last season, head coach Mike Shanahan could no longer tolerate the Bates' system because it was ineffective in stopping the run. The system was out, then Bates was out. Moss and Crowder are still here, but sitting because they have yet to develop into solid-enough run-stoppers. With Tampa Bay using a ton of power runs at the defensive end, this wasn't Moss' and Crowder's kind of game, at least as viewed by the coaches.

Their playing days here aren't finished. Shanahan said Monday that he thought Moss could be converted to an outside linebacker in the Broncos' new 3-4 defensive system. It only makes sense. There will be matchups when Broncos defensive coordinator Bob Slowik will want some pass-rush heat. For those games, Moss and Crowder will get their turns.

[Tned]

lets see everyone touting the 05 draft who's left.. Paymah ahahahahah

06 pretty good so far..

07 maybe Harris will last, Thomas might be a backup.. top two are toast.. and we are not yet through season 1.5..

08 way to soon to tell.. but odds are 2 maybe 3 survive training camp #3.

Which is about par for the course..

One of these days Y'all will see the light about how much farther ahead we would be with a real GM..

Look at the Broncos record over the last 14 years or so -- the number of losing seasons. I'm very pleased with Shanahan at the helm. He puts a solid team on the field every season.

Don't even both responding with, "I don't want a solid team, I want to win the SB". That's pie in the sky. since Shanahan took over, only 10 teams have won the SB, meaning 22 teams have had at least a 13 year drought when it comes to WINNING the SB.

Of the 10 teams that have won the SB, only NE and Den have one more than one during that time frame.

Now, if you look at how many teams have gone, you can add 7 more, so 17 teams have been to the SB during Shanahan's tenure, and he has been their twice.

Now, I don't have time to look up things like winning seasons and years that teams have made the playoffs (as I have done in the past), but again, the Broncos are among the best in the league, even since their SB years (post Elway, which will be your next argument).

Take the great Dallas team. Multiple head coaches, multiple losing seasons. Some consider them the best team in the NFL, but they haven't won a playoff game in 10 years or so.

So, I have a totally different outlook than you. I see what Shanahan has done as being a great job. As a fan, I look forward to the 16 games a season, and knowing that the Broncos have a great shot of winning every game, and will be in the running for the playoffs nearly every year. Many, many fans can't say the same thing about their team.

The four months a year, where I get to enjoy watching my Broncos every Sunday (or Monday, Thursday or Saturday) and know that more times than not, they will win, brings me enjoyment, as a fan. I look forward to the games, compared to friends of mine who have been fans of Dallas and other teams where sometimes for two or three years, they are simply hoping for a 5 or 6 win season, eventually thinking, "this year we can be .500".

I know you go on and on about the draft, but what you never seem to grasp is that Shanahan has put so many winning teams on the field because of how he builds. Because he is willing to take a shot on an aging FA, because he is willing to draft a RB who broke his ankle that nobody wanted and the guy goes on to rush for 2,000 yards in a season and possibly be THE key to the two SB's that were won.

So, I will be grateful for the good team that the Broncos field every year under shanahan, unlike the early '90s, and 'hope' that in time a combination of good breaks, and a break through player here or there, will put us over the edge again, so we can once again, be that rare fan that gets to experience a football victory. Since based on the fact thereare 32 teams, and we last won a SB in '98, you could argue that we have about 22 years before we are 'due' again, and at least 6 years, before we are 'due' to be back in the SB (not win).

I'll take the occaissional 7-9 season, ecause I know it will be surrounded by a lot of 10, 11, 12 and 13 win seasons, and as a fan, that is all I can ask from my football team.

[TXBRONC]

Look at the Broncos record over the last 14 years or so -- the number of losing seasons. I'm very pleased with Shanahan at the helm. He puts a solid team on the field every season.

Don't even both responding with, "I don't want a solid team, I want to win the SB". That's pie in the sky. since Shanahan took over, only 10 teams have won the SB, meaning 22 teams have had at least a 13 year drought when it comes to WINNING the SB.

Of the 10 teams that have won the SB, only NE and Den have one more than one during that time frame.

Now, if you look at how many teams have gone, you can add 7 more, so 17 teams have been to the SB during Shanahan's tenure, and he has been their twice.

Now, I don't have time to look up things like winning seasons and years that teams have made the playoffs (as I have done in the past), but again, the Broncos are among the best in the league, even since their SB years (post Elway, which will be your next argument).

Take the great Dallas team. Multiple head coaches, multiple losing seasons. Some consider them the best team in the NFL, but they haven't won a playoff game in 10 years or so.

So, I have a totally different outlook than you. I see what Shanahan has done as being a great job. As a fan, I look forward to the 16 games a season, and knowing that the Broncos have a great shot of winning every game, and will be in the running for the playoffs nearly every year. Many, many fans can't say the same thing about their team.

The four months a year, where I get to enjoy watching my Broncos every Sunday (or Monday, Thursday or Saturday) and know that more times than not, they will win, brings me enjoyment, as a fan. I look forward to the games, compared to friends of mine who have been fans of Dallas and other teams where sometimes for two or three years, they are simply hoping for a 5 or 6 win season, eventually thinking, "this year we can be .500".

I know you go on and on about the draft, but what you never seem to grasp is that Shanahan has put so many winning teams on the field because of how he builds. Because he is willing to take a shot on an aging FA, because he is willing to draft a RB who broke his ankle that nobody wanted and the guy goes on to rush for 2,000 yards in a season and possibly be THE key to the two SB's that were won.

So, I will be grateful for the good team that the Broncos field every year under shanahan, unlike the early '90s, and 'hope' that in time a combination of good breaks, and a break through player here or there, will put us over the edge again, so we can once again, be that rare fan that gets to experience a football victory. Since based on the fact there are 32 teams, and we last won a SB in '98, you could argue that we have about 22 years before we are 'due' again, and at least 6 years, before we are 'due' to be back in the SB (not win).

I'll take the occasional 7-9 season, because I know it will be surrounded by a lot of 10, 11, 12 and 13 win seasons, and as a fan, that is all I can ask from my football team.


Bravo, this is a superb post Tned and echos my thought exactly. :salute:

[Traveler]

This isn't the first time Denver has ever switched a defensive end to linebacker. You might recall if you're old enough to remember that on two occassions that I'm aware of this happened and it worked out well for us. Simon Fletcher, and Karl Mecklenberg were both undersized defensive ends and they both switched over to being linebackers with relative ease. I do admit that we running a 3-4 as the base defense at that time but if gives Moss a chance to get onto the field I'm all for it.

Thanks for the compliment! But I'm old enough to have seen Rich Jackson and Floyd Little play for the team.:D

[broncofaninfla]

When Denver lines up for the 3/4, who are the front 7?

[Tned]

When Denver lines up for the 3/4, who are the front 7?

I'm not sure if it is 100%, since I haven't paid that close attention, but at least some of the time it's (the only one I am not sure on the rotation is whether it is always peterson.

Dumvervil -- Peterson -- Ekuban
Bailey -- Winborn -- Webster -- Williams

[broncofaninfla]

I'm not sure if it is 100%, since I haven't paid that close attention, but at least some of the time it's (the only one I am not sure on the rotation is whether it is always peterson.

Dumvervil -- Peterson -- Ekuban
Bailey -- Winborn -- Webster -- Williams

Thanks!
I wonder where they are thinking about inserting Moss? Shifting Williams inside and Moss taking that spot on obvious passing downs then blitzing him? Williams has been a stud in the 4/3this year. I don't see Moss taking an inside spot because of his build.

[TXBRONC]

I'm not sure if it is 100%, since I haven't paid that close attention, but at least some of the time it's (the only one I am not sure on the rotation is whether it is always peterson.

Dumvervil -- Peterson -- Ekuban
Bailey -- Winborn -- Webster -- Williams

I don't think Thomas is rotating in when the go to the 3-4. Better yet like you I haven't noticed him being in when Slowik goes to the 3-4 defense.

[TXBRONC]

Thanks!
I wonder where they are thinking about inserting Moss? Shifting Williams inside and Moss taking that spot on obvious passing downs then blitzing him? Williams has been a stud in the 4/3this year. I don't see Moss taking an inside spot because of his build.

If I were to guess I would think you would be right Moss coming in as outside linebacker and D.J. shifting to the inside.

[Tned]

Thanks!
I wonder where they are thinking about inserting Moss? Shifting Williams inside and Moss taking that spot on obvious passing downs then blitzing him? Williams has been a stud in the 4/3this year. I don't see Moss taking an inside spot because of his build.

Good question. Bailey has looked pretty good to me, so I think you might be right about Williams moving to the inside. There is no way Williams comes out (skill and he wears the headset), and I can't see taking Bailey out over Webster and Winborn.

The other option would be to move Bailey to the inside, and put Moss on his side.

[TXBRONC]

Good question. Bailey has looked pretty good to me, so I think you might be right about Williams moving to the inside. There is no way Williams comes out (skill and he wears the headset), and I can't see taking Bailey out over Webster and Winborn.

The other option would be to move Bailey to the inside, and put Moss on his side.

Williams is by far our most versatile linebacker.

[56crash]

I finaly listened to Coachs words on this people need to lighten up !!!! Coach was just saying he coul.d do this because moss was fast enough . he did not say this was a sure thing just it was posible crap people !!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[BCJ]

let us hope that 6X8 doesnt find BF from the Mane.

[broncofaninfla]

From Rocky Mountain News:

Shanahan floated the idea earlier this week of playing defensive end Jarvis Moss at outside linebacker some of the time when the Broncos play their 3-4 look on defense, but the idea appeared to surprise Moss.

"I know nothing about that," Moss said Wednesday. "I haven't heard from the coaches or anything on that one."

Moss, who was the Broncos' first-round pick - 17th overall - in the 2007 draft, has been a game-day inactive three times this season, including Sunday against the Buccaneers.

Listed at 265 pounds, Moss has struggled at times against bigger offensive tackles and has five tackles in limited duty. Shanahan described him Monday as being "in that 240 (pound) range."

"Whatever the coaches want me to do, I'll do, 110 percent," Moss said. "I'll do it."

Looks like IF Denver is serious about trying Moss out at OLB it won't be this week.

[Buff]

From Rocky Mountain News:

Shanahan floated the idea earlier this week of playing defensive end Jarvis Moss at outside linebacker some of the time when the Broncos play their 3-4 look on defense, but the idea appeared to surprise Moss.

"I know nothing about that," Moss said Wednesday. "I haven't heard from the coaches or anything on that one."

Moss, who was the Broncos' first-round pick - 17th overall - in the 2007 draft, has been a game-day inactive three times this season, including Sunday against the Buccaneers.

Listed at 265 pounds, Moss has struggled at times against bigger offensive tackles and has five tackles in limited duty. Shanahan described him Monday as being "in that 240 (pound) range."

"Whatever the coaches want me to do, I'll do, 110 percent," Moss said. "I'll do it."

Looks like IF Denver is serious about trying Moss out at OLB it won't be this week.

This contributes to my theory that Shanahan is boosting Moss' potential trade value by floating it out there that he could play 3-4 LB... Because, honestly, if we had intentions of converting him to a 3-4 OLB, don't you think Shanahan would have approached him before he told the media?

I could be wrong, but I look for Moss to get moved in the off season if not sooner.

[Shazam!]

They have too man D Linemen that are more like LBs, like Doom. I don't think they have the overall size to run it effectively. I think it's a GREAT wrinkle though here and there, but FT?

[MOtorboat]

This contributes to my theory that Shanahan is boosting Moss' potential trade value by floating it out there that he could play 3-4 LB... Because, honestly, if we had intentions of converting him to a 3-4 OLB, don't you think Shanahan would have approached him before he told the media?

I could be wrong, but I look for Moss to get moved in the off season if not sooner.

He's going to have to let him play to get that trade value to go much higher than a seventh-round conditional, at this point...imho...

[TXBRONC]

This contributes to my theory that Shanahan is boosting Moss' potential trade value by floating it out there that he could play 3-4 LB... Because, honestly, if we had intentions of converting him to a 3-4 OLB, don't you think Shanahan would have approached him before he told the media?
I could be wrong, but I look for Moss to get moved in the off season if not sooner.

It could mean that Shanahan plans on moving him but not necessarily. I don't see how boosts potential trade value when Moss hasn't even practiced at the position so I don't see other organizations biting on the idea until he actually plays at linebacker position.

First rounders usually get more than one season to prove themselves.

[Cugel]

This contributes to my theory that Shanahan is boosting Moss' potential trade value by floating it out there that he could play 3-4 LB... Because, honestly, if we had intentions of converting him to a 3-4 OLB, don't you think Shanahan would have approached him before he told the media?

I could be wrong, but I look for Moss to get moved in the off season if not sooner.

I did a thread last week pointing this out. You're right. Denver would LOVE to move Moss for a reasonable offer right now, (perhaps a 3rd rounder). But, they won't get it.

Moss has done exactly nothing in the NFL and can't even get on the field at all. Now we learn why: he's down to 240 lbs., 15 lbs off his 265 official weight.

At 265 you are a normal sized RDE and have a chance to stand up against 320 lbs. LTs. At 240 you are either a LB or else road-kill!

He simply cannot play DE at that weight. TEs can flat out run over him and toss him aside like a rag-doll.

The Jaguars have talked about how they approached Denver's defense last season:


"They are not the group that was the smaller bunch up front last year," Taylor said Wednesday.

"We came into that game saying 'OK, we're going to run the ball,' treat them like the Colts with the smaller guys. But now with (Dewayne) Robertson and Marcus (Thomas), they're playing outstanding in the middle, they've got some size now."

And why aren't the Broncos the "same guys" they ran over last year? Not only because they've got Thomas (who they had last year) and Robertson (who is a part-time player), but because they are playing Ekuban and Engleberger at LDE (both over 265).

Moss should be another healthy game day inactive this week, because he's totally unsuited to go up against the physical Jaguars.

This is a desperation move by Shanahan who's totally given up on the idea of getting any use out of Moss at DE. If Moss were progressing and would EVER be a starter for Denver, he'd at least get some playing time this season on a regular basis. He'd be part of the rotation, even if he didn't start. The fact that he's sitting in street clothes on game-day means he's a TOTAL BUST at his position.

So, Shanahan will try him out at outside LB in the last ditch hope that somehow Moss will prove useful. But, Denver has a bunch of LBs all of whom know how to play the position, and thus are way ahead of Moss. He'd have to beat out guys like Boss Bailey to even get a chance.

No, this is just a "we're paying the guy millions of $, and we can't cut him in the middle of the season! We've gotta find a way to get something out of him, at least until we can try and trade him for a used bubble-gum wrapper next February." :coffee:

Unless something REMARKABLE happens and he can suddenly adapt to a totally new position he's never played before, this is the last we will ever see or hear from Jarvis Moss. A totally wasted pick. :rolleyes:

As for Tim Crowder. He's not even an afterthought by now. He's just GONE next off-season, joining the LONG list of Shanahan 2nd round busts like Darius Watts, Terry Pierce, Tatum Bell, and Paul Toviesi.

[Lonestar]

I see it as they knew he was a risk when they Drafted him, he'd had a staff infection in college. They thought eh weight issue was because of that and thought he could add weight to beef up to 270+ range most effective DE's are..

They now know they can't keep the weight on staff infection or not.. he does keep the bulk on and therefore at 240 pounds can;t play DE like they hoped..

Looks to me like another bust that a failed scouting staff blew.. just like many of the others in the past .. Like delta who was a great athlete that had just played the CB position for just over a year.. While he was great at it it soon became apparent the he could not handle the position mentally..
Did not have the CB short term memory that the greats ones needed to forget an great or lousy play and start over after each play with a clean slate.. HAd he played CB for his entire college career perhaps he would not have "been a top choice" as everyone would have known he was not suited for CB..

Or like Watts who had a great career in a minor college league against not so great CB's.. A one handed WR make it in the pros maybe he could but carrying the weight of being a #2 choice did not help him at all.. Had he been a UFA perhaps the pressure would not have been so great and very few expectations.. Once the CB's found out his right hand was just a bit more than a claw he was doomed..

[Denver Native (Carol)]

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/oct/09/sam-adams-open-mic-collier-sees-possibilities-moss/

If anyone in Denver knows the inner workings of football’s 3-4 defense, it’s former Broncos defensive coordinator Joe Collier.

Collier, considered one of pro football’s all-time masters of the 3-4 defense, has noticed the Broncos’ use of the alignment in the past few games. He believes Denver’s intermittent use of the 3-4 presents problems for opposing coaches in game preparation.

“The biggest key is you have to have unselfish linemen,” Collier said. “Those guys have to play disciplined football — by that, I mean they have to protect the linebackers, so to speak.

“The glory is not going to come for defensive linemen in a 3-4 very often.”

Broncos coach Mike Shanahan said this week that second-year defensive end Jarvis Moss could get some action at outside linebacker. When Collier first saw Moss last year, he had thoughts about one of his former players, Simon Fletcher.

Fletcher and Moss are similar in build — tall and lean. The Broncos can only hope Moss blossoms into a pass rusher with the skills of Fletcher, who holds the franchise record for sacks — in a game (four, tied with four others), season (16) and career (971/2).

“I said, man, if this kid can do anything at all in space, as far as backpedaling, turning and twisting and doing all the things a linebacker has to do in pass coverage ... if he could do that, he could be a viable force as a linebacker,” Collier said.

“We did the same thing with Karl Mecklenburg — he came in as a defensive lineman and we stood him up as a linebacker. What you do is take a player that can move around in space. That’s the biggest thing. ...

“Quite often, he’s going to end up pass rushing against a tight end or a running back instead of those big linemen. A guy like Simon was able to get a lot of mismatches, I feel, in pass-rushing situations when he was a blitzing linebacker.

“That was to our advantage, and it turned out good.”

[Lonestar]

maybe mikey needs to hire Collier as he can at least find his ass with both hands unlike slowick..

[TXBRONC]

Unless something REMARKABLE happens and he can suddenly adapt to a totally new position he's never played before, this is the last we will ever see or hear from Jarvis Moss. A totally wasted pick. :rolleyes:


He wouldn't be the first player to ever switch positions in order to find a place for him to play. Denver has in fact done this before, with Karl Mecklenberg and Simon Fletcher. Now I'm not saying that Moss is another Mecklenberg or Fletcher however, it would not surprise me to see this attempted through training camp. Rarely do number one picks get less than three seasons.

Before Shanahan gets hammered again with criticism of another draft bust lets try and remember who was running the defense when Moss was drafted. While Shanahan does make the final decision on draft picks I think it would be foolish to think that Bates had nothing to do with it. Contrary to all of Shanahan's detrators I'm sure he listens to his coaches and coordinators when they say "This is what I need" especially when it's the defense.

[TheRecession]

Jarvis Moss will have a roll as a OLB pass rusher in our hybrid defense.

[dogfish]

did anyone else notice that moss was actually around the ball a good bit in the second half?


hey, i know it's not much, and he didn't make any plays, but at this point ANY sign of progress is better than nothing at all-- at least he was out on the field, hustling and trying to make an impact. . . it's better than being inactive, because he sure as hell isn't getting any better that way. . . he was a bare half-step behind webster on nate's sack, and looked like he would have gotten it if nate didn't get there first, and i noticed him sealing the edge on a few running plays. . . like i said, i know it's not much, but i'm going to doggedly persist in my belief that he has a chance to develop into a player until hope is pried from my cold, stiff fingers. . . :laugh:

[Npba900]

maybe mikey needs to hire Collier as he can at least find his ass with both hands unlike slowick..

My thoughts as well! Why not bring Collier in as a consultant and teach the Slowick how to develop/scheme and deploy a 3-4 Defense the right way.

[dogfish]

"2007 first-round pick (#8 overall) and Falcons DE Jamaal Anderson recorded his first NFL sack in his 22nd NFL game."

[turftoad]

It's not ALL about sacks. It's about pressure, playing the run and being ACTIVE on game day.

[TXBRONC]

It's not ALL about sacks. It's about pressure, playing the run and being ACTIVE on game day.

Moss was active on Sunday.