Seahawks Interested in Orton

[LTC Pain]

Never heard of Speculative Sports. And I'm not sure a 3rd round and a 5th round pick in two different drafts for KO is enough. I's rather the Broncos get a 2nd round pick for him.

http://www.speculativesports.com/664/seahawks-interested-in-kyle-orton/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+SpeculativeSports+(Speculative+ Sports)

[SR]

I'd take a 3rd and a 5th in two different drafts for Orton in a heartbeat.

[rcsodak]

I'd take a 3rd and a 5th in two different drafts for Orton in a heartbeat.but you're easy.
Miami fans have mentioned trading for KO from his/BM's connection.
PKirwin/TRyan both say if a team wants to win now, they grab KO over Kolb. And he absolutely is worth a 2.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[BigSarge87]

but you're easy.
Miami fans have mentioned trading for KO from his/BM's connection.
PKirwin/TRyan both say if a team wants to win now, they grab KO over Kolb. And he absolutely is worth a 2.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Yeah, just look at his stats! :behindsofa:

JK, I really do think he's worth a 2nd though, even if it's a second next year.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I'd take a 3rd and a 5th in two different drafts for Orton in a heartbeat.

Especially if it's a 3rd this year and a 5th next year! Pull the trigger!

[topscribe]

but you're easy.
Miami fans have mentioned trading for KO from his/BM's connection.
PKirwin/TRyan both say if a team wants to win now, they grab KO over Kolb. And he absolutely is worth a 2.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

If you're looking through the eyes of those in football, Orton is worth at least a 2.

If you're looking through the eyes of many on this board, no . . .

-----

[zbeg]

If you're looking through the eyes of those in football, Orton is worth at least a 2.

If you're looking through the eyes of many on this board, no . . .

-----

But...stats! Winning! Orton! Josh McDaniels! Words! Noise! Why do you hate the Denver Broncos? ignore defense! Moreno! McDaniels! NOMNOMNOMGLUEISDELICIOUS. Tebowner? Orton! ARGH! AACGHGN! MCDANIELS ARGGHT! ARM-FLAILING!

Josh McDaniels.

:coffee:

(My logic is impeccable.)

[SR]

but you're easy.
Miami fans have mentioned trading for KO from his/BM's connection.
PKirwin/TRyan both say if a team wants to win now, they grab KO over Kolb. And he absolutely is worth a 2.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

He might be worth a two to someone, but I'd be more than happy to unload him for a third and a fifth split between two years just so he's gone and not our problem anymore. Easy or not, I'm all for unloading baggage.

[rcsodak]

If you're looking through the eyes of those in football, Orton is worth at least a 2.

If you're looking through the eyes of many on this board, no . . .

-----
Well, as Rav says....who ya gonna go with....the people in the know or the know it alls?
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[underrated29]

If you're looking through the eyes of those in football, Orton is worth at least a 2.

If you're looking through the eyes of many on this board, no . . .

-----

And if you are looking through the eyes of Topscribe he is worth 2-1sts and the Mach 5 razor for less tug and pull on the neck.


:D

[topscribe]

And if you are looking through the eyes of Topscribe he is worth 2-1sts and the Mach 5 razor for less tug and pull on the neck.


:D

lol - No, just value, that's all. The 2nd rounder is the lowest regarded as a
"sure" starter. A third is a possibly yes, possibly no starter. Kyle has been a
starter for his entire career, when allowed to compete. He is a proven starter.
That smacks of #2 to me. And when one listens to the likes of John Elway and
Rich Gannon, there are people -- who know a little about QBs -- who have a
higher opinion than most on this board . . .

-----

[jhildebrand]

Orton might not be the 3rd best QB available if there is a free agency period that is anything close to normal.

Carson Palmer
Matt Hasselbeck
Kevin Kolb

come to mind.

[arapaho2]

lol - No, just value, that's all. The 2nd rounder is the lowest regarded as a
"sure" starter. A third is a possibly yes, possibly no starter. Kyle has been a
starter for his entire career, when allowed to compete. He is a proven starter.
That smacks of #2 to me. And when one listens to the likes of John Elway and
Rich Gannon, there are people -- who know a little about QBs -- who have a
higher opinion than most on this board . . .

-----

didnt he compete for the job in 2006 and couldnt beat out rex or greise:lol:

:listen: elway can hype him and should, to fleece some sucker hopeing for a qb that can carry a team

[arapaho2]

Orton might not be the 3rd best QB available if there is a free agency period that is anything close to normal.

Carson Palmer
Matt Hasselbeck
Kevin Kolb

come to mind.

dont forget Mcnabb...i'd take him for a year over orton anyday

[rcsodak]

Orton might not be the 3rd best QB available if there is a free agency period that is anything close to normal.

Carson Palmer
Matt Hasselbeck
Kevin Kolb

come to mind.

If that's his competition, he'll be the first sought, imo.

Palmer has sucked since his injury
hasselback is 92yrs old
Kolb is
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[dogfish]

And if you are looking through the eyes of Topscribe he is worth 2-1sts and the Mach 5 razor for less tug and pull on the neck.


:D

you left out the jug of jack daniels. . . orton would be insulted. . .


:drinking:

[topscribe]

you left out the jug of jack daniels. . . orton would be insulted. . .


:drinking:

Sounds pretty good to me . . . :D

-----

[arapaho2]

If that's his competition, he'll be the first sought, imo.

Palmer has sucked since his injury
hasselback is 92yrs old
Kolb is
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums


yet he puts up similer stats with a couple has been wrs as orton has with two straight yrs of a probowl wr...and ortons the bomb right?

palmer..644 com....61.1% and 7064 rd
orton...629com.....60.4% and 7455yrds

does this mean orton sucks too?:lol:

[topscribe]

you left out the jug of jack daniels. . . orton would be insulted. . .


:drinking:

That would be okay by me . . . :drinking:

-----

[topscribe]

yet he puts up similer stats with a couple has been wrs as orton has with two straight yrs of a probowl wr...and ortons the bomb right?

palmer..644 com....61.1% and 7064 rd
orton...629com.....60.4% and 7455yrds

does this mean orton sucks too?:lol:

Are you serious? You are comparing Palmer's 32 games against Orton's 29 for
total yards and completions? You are comparing a healthy Palmer against an
Orton who played allllllll of 2009 on high ankle sprains and his last two games
of 2010 with severe rib injuries -- oh, and don't forget Orton's compound
dislocation of the guiding finger on his throwing hand.

If the stats are similar, then, that would seem to pose a significant advantage
for Orton . . .

-----

[Davii]

Orton might not be the 3rd best QB available if there is a free agency period that is anything close to normal.

Carson Palmer
Matt Hasselbeck
Kevin Kolb

come to mind.

Honestly, with the possible exception of Hasselbeck I would take KO before I took that list. Palmer has been adequate at best since he blew his knee out in the Playoffs and really only had a short span (what two seasons?) of above average play, and Kolb never impressed me at all.

[BeefStew25]

Orton is awesome. Give us a 1st.

[SR]

Are you serious? You are comparing Palmer's 32 games against Orton's 29 for
total yards and completions? You are comparing a healthy Palmer against an
Orton who played allllllll of 2009 on high ankle sprains and his last two games
of 2010 with severe rib injuries -- oh, and don't forget Orton's compound
dislocation of the guiding finger on his throwing hand.

If the stats are similar, then, that would seem to pose a significant advantage
for Orton . . .

-----

I wouldn't say his rib "injuries" were "severe". C'mon Top...why do you keep trying to justify Orton's mediocrity? Do you honestly think that if none of those injuries happened and he was in tip top shape for both seasons the outcome would have been different? His injuries were to blame for his inadequacies on third down and in the fourth quarter/any time we were behind?

[dogfish]

If the stats are similar, then, that would seem to pose a significant advantage
for Orton . . .

-----

only if you've fooled yourself into believing orton won't be playing on at least one bad ankle next year. . .

;)

[jhildebrand]

Orton's splits down by 7 are terrible. His 3rd down completions/conversions are terrible. He wasn't that great against SD or division opponents. We can compare stats to Palmer all day long but Palmer is one season removed from sweeping the AFCN a very very strong division. Orton has been playing in one of the weakest AFCW's in decades.

Kolb is unknown and that will intrigue a team more than Orton will. In fact AZ appears to be very interested in Kolb.

I said it from the day the season ended and I say it now. This team would be extremely lucky to see a 2nd round pick or value for Orton. I would think a 3rd is in line and that may be a bit much too.

[topscribe]

Are you serious? You are comparing Palmer's 32 games against Orton's 29 for
total yards and completions? You are comparing a healthy Palmer against an
Orton who played allllllll of 2009 on high ankle sprains and his last two games
of 2010 with severe rib injuries -- oh, and don't forget Orton's compound
dislocation of the guiding finger on his throwing hand.

If the stats are similar, then, that would seem to pose a significant advantage
for Orton . . .

-----

Probably the best comparison would be Palmer's 2007 against Orton's 2010 in
the 11 games before he succumbed to rib injuries (although Orton was hurting
for a couple games prior). So here we are:

Palmer 64.9% comp...258 yds/game...7.2 YPA...1.25 TDs/game...1.00 INT/game...86.7 QBR

Orton...61.8% comp...306 yds/game...7.1 YPA...1.82 TDs/game...0.82 INT/game...96.0 QBR

Make if it what you will . . .

-----

[topscribe]

I wouldn't say his rib "injuries" were "severe". C'mon Top...why do you keep trying to justify Orton's mediocrity? Do you honestly think that if none of those injuries happened and he was in tip top shape for both seasons the outcome would have been different? His injuries were to blame for his inadequacies on third down and in the fourth quarter/any time we were behind?

Why do you throw that in my face? I have already thoroughly covered Orton's
need for improvement in those areas. So don't go posting as if you think I have
ignored them. If you haven't kept up with my posting, then please don't you
post as if you know what I have already covered.

I have also spoken on the shallow reasoning of not going below the surface and
finding out why things happen in games. Of course, I'm a damned idiot on this
board for doing so. I should just say, yup, 3-10, all Orton. Third down conversions,
all Orton. Worst in the league in both running offense and running defense.
Duh, yup. All Orton.

Elway's an idiot. Gannon's a moron. Complimenting Orton. What knuckleheads.

-----

[jhildebrand]

Worst in the league in both running offense and running defense.

Duh, yup. All Orton.



Tebow played with the same team and the team was drastically different....just saying :coffee:

[HORSEPOWER 56]

It's kinda unfair to say Orton played all of 2009 on bad ankles, too. He'd had a high ankle sprain in Chicago the year before which he'd recovered from. He'd had an entire offseason to recover from the one he got in Chicago and was fully recovered from that one before he became the starter here.

He had the opposite ankle sprained vs Washington in week 10 of 2009 by Brian Orakpo right before halftime.

[topscribe]

It's kinda unfair to say Orton played all of 2009 on bad ankles, too. He'd had a high ankle sprain in Chicago the year before which he'd recovered from. He'd had an entire offseason to recover from the one he got in Chicago and was fully recovered from that one before he became the starter here.

He had the opposite ankle sprained vs Washington in week 10 of 2009 by Brian Orakpo right before halftime.

As it turned out, Orton had not recovered from the high ankle sprain in 2009.
He began the year with the still lingering injury, then in the Washington game
he incurred a high ankle sprain to his other leg, so he was playing on two high
ankle sprains. Not only was that reported, but it was confirmed by Orton
himself after the 2009 season was over. Orton never had a completely healthy
day in all of 2009.

-----

[topscribe]

Tebow played with the same team and the team was drastically different....just saying :coffee:

The team had begun to improve before Tebow ever took the field. Go to this gamelog (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/2010.htm)
and scramble the games after the bye, then tell me that, if you didn't already know,
you could pick out the games Orton played in, as opposed to those Tebow played in,
according to rushing yards gained on offense and rushing yards yielded on defense.

Then try to tell me it was "drastically different."

And please do not try to turn this into Tebow vs. Orton with me. I believe Tebow
did a very good job in those games. I'm just trying to set facts straight . . .

-----

[BeefStew25]

Top, we have indoor plumbing. You don't have to shit in the outhouse anymore.

[arapaho2]

Tebow played with the same team and the team was drastically different....just saying :coffee:

But the difference is tebow didn't have devastating rib injuries that somehow didn't make it on the injury report:laugh:

[Juriga72]

but you're easy.
Miami fans have mentioned trading for KO from his/BM's connection.
PKirwin/TRyan both say if a team wants to win now, they grab KO over Kolb. And he absolutely is worth a 2.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Jake Long will be the next LT to go from Pro-Bowl to bust via Kyle Orton.....

[topscribe]

Top, we have indoor plumbing. You don't have to shit in the outhouse anymore.

Beef, the outhouse has something to be said for it. I can sit out there and read
as long as I want because nobody else wants to go out there anymore . . .

-----

[topscribe]

But the difference is tebow didn't have devastating rib injuries that somehow didn't make it on the injury report:laugh:

Yeah, Elway, Studesville, and Orton are all liars . . .

-----

[arapaho2]

The team had begun to improve before Tebow ever took the field. Go to this gamelog (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/2010.htm)
and scramble the games after the bye, then tell me that, if you didn't already know,
you could pick out the games Orton played in, as opposed to those Tebow played in,
according to rushing yards gained on offense and rushing yards yielded on defense.

Then try to tell me it was "drastically different."

And please do not try to turn this into Tebow vs. Orton with me. I believe Tebow
did a very good job in those games. I'm just trying to set facts straight . . .

-----

You mean like when Moreno had his career best day...and orton still stunk up the place....oh wait that was those devastating unreported ribs:lol:

[topscribe]

You mean like when Moreno had his career best day...and orton still stunk up the place....oh wait that was those devastating unreported ribs:lol:

Yeah, Elway, Studesville, and Orton are all liars . . .

-----

[topscribe]

Shall we do it again?

-----

[topscribe]

Here's the deal: Because I'm not an idiot, I figured there might be a reason
Orton all the sudden stunk up the joint in the KC game, after passing for 860
yards, 8 TDs against 1 INT, and a 105 QBR the previous three games.

Because I'm not an idiot, and those who were watching the KC game with me
are not idiots, we noticed the ball was all the sudden not coming off Kyle's
hand as it had been before.

Because I'm not an idiot, I paid very close attention to news reports, pressers,
and interviews of all involved and those who came after the fact to find out
what was going on.

I heard Studesville clearly say that the reason he started Tebow was because
of Orton's injuries.

I heard Orton lucidly say after the close of the season that he played the last
two games with rib injuries on both sides.

I heard Elway in a crystal clear message mention Orton's rib injuries as a
factor toward Orton's decline his last couple games.

So those who would laugh at that are calling me either a liar or an idiot. I'm
not going to reciprocate, though. I'm not going to say anybody else here is . . .
well, not a liar, anyway . . .

-----

[jhildebrand]

And please do not try to turn this into Tebow vs. Orton with me.
-----

I am not turning it into anything, Top. The fact is the team looked a lot more alive the final three weeks of the season especially the last two. Maybe that's just my perspective :noidea:

However, you are touting Orton every chance you can all while giving him every excuse you can as well including the ankle injury. I follow this team as close as anybody and I don't recall one person saying the ankle was an issue at the start of this season. But I digress. When you say we have to factor in the horrible running games for O and D of course you are going to open yourself up to the fact that Tebow had to play with the very same team.

So now all of a sudden they were getting better? :confused:

Come on, Top! I admire you for 'sticking up for Orton' but at least try to keep the playing field level without changing the argument.

Besides, if everybody believed everything you are saying, one might say Orton is injury prone at this point ;)

[rcsodak]

Are you serious? You are comparing Palmer's 32 games against Orton's 29 for
total yards and completions? You are comparing a healthy Palmer against an
Orton who played allllllll of 2009 on high ankle sprains and his last two games
of 2010 with severe rib injuries -- oh, and don't forget Orton's compound
dislocation of the guiding finger on his throwing hand.

If the stats are similar, then, that would seem to pose a significant advantage
for Orton . . .

-----

Thx for quoting him, top. I grew tired of his whining and constant attack mode (as
evidenced yet again) and slapped him on iggy.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[topscribe]

I am not turning it into anything, Top. The fact is the team looked a lot more alive the final three weeks of the season especially the last two. Maybe that's just my perspective :noidea:

However, you are touting Orton every chance you can all while giving him every excuse you can as well including the ankle injury. I follow this team as close as anybody and I don't recall one person saying the ankle was an issue at the start of this season. But I digress. When you say we have to factor in the horrible running games for O and D of course you are going to open yourself up to the fact that Tebow had to play with the very same team.

So now all of a sudden they were getting better? :confused:

Come on, Top! I admire you for 'sticking up for Orton' but at least try to keep the playing field level without changing the argument.

Besides, if everybody believed everything you are saying, one might say Orton is injury prone at this point ;)

And you are bashing Orton every chance you can while ignoring any underlying
reason for things happening the way they do. It is amazing how people think
that calling me out for pointing out the positive things of Orton is some kind
of argument on their behalf. I'm getting tired of you people talking about how
I so constantly argue for Orton when the bunch of you constantly bash him.
So what you want is to be able to bash him without disagreement, right?

Other than that, I caught your allusion that I'm a liar, that I didn't hear the
things I say I did. Thank you. But I understand. There was no holocaust.

Yep, your thoroughly bashing me has brought out the truth: Orton is a bum.

That better?

Nonetheless, stop that "excuse" shit. Excuses are provided a reasons for
failures. Orton needs no "excuses." He played solidly throughout 2009, and he
played "at a record-shattering, Pro Bowl level" (per John Elway) until his final
two games when all the sudden something went wrong. Of course, to the
shallow thinkers, there is no reason for that sudden development, other than
"Orton sucks."

Go figure.

But the point is, Orton played well despite the injuries and other obstacles.
Those are not excuses. Quite the opposite: They are commendations and
achievements of which not all quarterbacks would have been capable.

Now, let's get this straight with all you baffoons: Criticizing me for my stand
on Orton is not an argument on the issue. I'm tired of that shit, and I am not
going to tolerate it anymore. If you have a point on the issue, then let's hear
it: I'm all ears. But I am not part of the topic.

-----

[rcsodak]

And you are bashing Orton every chance you can while ignoring any underlying
reason for things happening the way they do. It is amazing how people think
that calling me out for pointing out the positive things of Orton is some kind
of argument on their behalf. I'm getting tired of you people talking about how
I so constantly argue for Orton when the bunch of you constantly bash him.
So what you want is to be able to bash him without disagreement, right?

Other than that, I caught your allusion that I'm a liar, that I didn't hear the
things I say I did. Thank you. But I understand. There was no holocaust.

Yep, your thoroughly bashing me has brought out the truth: Orton is a bum.

That better?

Nonetheless, stop that "excuse" shit. Excuses are provided a reasons for
failures. Orton needs no "excuses." He played solidly throughout 2009, and he
played "at a record-shattering, Pro Bowl level" (per John Elway) until his final
two games when all the sudden something went wrong. Of course, to the
shallow thinkers, there is no reason for that sudden development, other than
"Orton sucks."

Go figure.

But the point is, Orton played well despite the injuries and other obstacles.
Those are not excuses. Quite the opposite: They are commendations and
achievements of which not all quarterbacks would have been capable.

Now, let's get this straight with all you baffoons: Criticizing me for my stand
on Orton is not an argument on the issue. I'm tired of that shit, and I am not
going to tolerate it anymore. If you have a point on the issue, then let's hear
it: I'm all ears. But I am not part of the topic.

-----
(Tap tap)

Ok, choir....


...ready?


*hummmmmmm*

Sing!


; )
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[SR]

Why do you throw that in my face? I have already thoroughly covered Orton's
need for improvement in those areas. So don't go posting as if you think I have
ignored them. If you haven't kept up with my posting, then please don't you
post as if you know what I have already covered.

I have also spoken on the shallow reasoning of not going below the surface and
finding out why things happen in games. Of course, I'm a damned idiot on this
board for doing so. I should just say, yup, 3-10, all Orton. Third down conversions,
all Orton. Worst in the league in both running offense and running defense.
Duh, yup. All Orton.

Elway's an idiot. Gannon's a moron. Complimenting Orton. What knuckleheads.

-----

Or be an ass. That's cool too.

[BroncoJoe]

So, in conclusion, Orton is injury prone.

[BroncoBJ]

If you're looking through the eyes of those in football, Orton is worth at least a 2.

If you're looking through the eyes of many on this board, no . . .

-----

If you're looking through the eyes in football, then you gotta get at least a 1st for him. :rockon:

[topscribe]

So, in conclusion, Orton is injury prone.

From the first game of the season on, Orton was pummeled because of that
sieve of an O-line. Time after time, game after game, he kept getting hit and
kept getting back up. In the game threads, right here on this board, we were
remarking that if the Broncos did not protect him better he was going to get
hurt. Even after the Baltimore game, the Ravens expressed admiration for him
because he kept getting back up and coming back at them.

Finally, well after the bye, in the SL game, a linebacker got a clear, full-speed
shot at Orton's exposed ribs. I saw it happen. They didn't stiffen up until after
the game, however, as evidenced by Orton's 347 yards and 3 TDs in the 4th
quarter. Then, as was revealed after the season, Someone got to his ribs on
the other side in the KC game. I saw that, too.

That is not injury-prone. That is inevitability. If a 240-lb linebacker launches
at full speed into your ribs, you are going to hurt. A lot. And, trust me, you
will have an awful time throwing a ball.

-----

[topscribe]

Or be an ass. That's cool too.

That's it, SR. Show me how to do it . . .

-----

[jhns]

I am not turning it into anything, Top. The fact is the team looked a lot more alive the final three weeks of the season especially the last two. Maybe that's just my perspective :noidea:

However, you are touting Orton every chance you can all while giving him every excuse you can as well including the ankle injury. I follow this team as close as anybody and I don't recall one person saying the ankle was an issue at the start of this season. But I digress. When you say we have to factor in the horrible running games for O and D of course you are going to open yourself up to the fact that Tebow had to play with the very same team.

So now all of a sudden they were getting better? :confused:

Come on, Top! I admire you for 'sticking up for Orton' but at least try to keep the playing field level without changing the argument.

Besides, if everybody believed everything you are saying, one might say Orton is injury prone at this point ;)

That is because you cant claim Orton is good without using a ton of excuses. His play sure hasnt been good.

Tebow had much less of a supporting run game than Orton. I even broke it all down in one of these threads. With less of a supporting run game, an unpolished rookie outplayed Orton in every way. Orton supporters dont let the facts get in the way though.

Here are the facts. Orton got about 20 more yards per game than Tebow did out of the supportinv run game. http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1224497&postcount=128

Tebow, who most are still questioning, led an offense that never once scored less than the average points scored by the Orton led offense. The Orton offenses average points were good for the 27th ranked scoring offense. So again, the only way to argue that Orton is even average is to use a ton of excuses for his play.

[SR]

That's it, SR. Show me how to do it . . .

-----

I was being sincere in my post and actually trying to talk football then you threw out that nonsense. No need for that shit man...we go too far back for that kind of crap.

[SR]

That is because you cant claim Orton is good without using a ton of excuses. His play sure hasnt been good.

Tebow had much less of a supporting run game than Orton. I even broke it all down in one of these threads. With less of a supporting run game, an unpolished rookie outplayed Orton in every way. Orton supporters dont let the facts get in the way though.

Here are the facts. Orton got about 20 more yards per game than Tebow did out of the supportinv run game. http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1224497&postcount=128

Tebow, who most are still questioning, led an offense that never once scored less than the average points scored by the Orton led offense. The Orton offenses average points were good for the 27th ranked scoring offense. So again, the only way to argue that Orton is even average is to use a ton of excuses for his play.


Not only all of that, but Tebow has a way of rallying players around him and getting people fired up. I think he makes people want to play better and play with/for him. Orton leaves the field, goes to the bench, and pouts (like Cutler). Leadership plays as big, or bigger, of a role in all of this as skill does.

[chazoe60]

My problems with Orton are that all the things good QBs should excel at are the things Orton does poorly. 3rd down conversions, the end of close games, and those times in a game when your leader needs to step up and rally the troops are all times when Orton completely falls apart IMHO.

He is not great at any one thing. He's smart but he almost always struggles against the blitz, and most the time it looks like he just fails to recognize it. He's accurate, kinda. He's accurate enough to have a good completion % but he's just off enough to lead wide open receivers to the ground more than any QB I've ever seen. He just doesn't do anything so well that he makes me think "man, if we build around that we'll be amazing".

I just think that since we are in our worst stretch in generations, and we are obviously rebuilding, it is a complete waste to do it with this guy under center. Isn't this the perfect time to see what Tebow has and if he isn't the answer we make a strong push for a guy in next years draft. Hell, if Elway loves Gabbert or Locker, fine. I would think it's stupid to give up on Tebow this quick but at least Gabbert or Locker would be trying, sticking with Orton just feels like a colossal waste of time.

Oh, and on a personal note: I absolutely can not stand watching Orton play. He is, in my opinion, the most unasthetically pleasing QB to ever play for the Broncos, from a style of play point of view.

[rcsodak]

I was being sincere in my post and actually trying to talk football then you threw out that nonsense. No need for that shit man...we go too far back for that kind of crap.
You're such a child.

:couch:
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[SR]

You're such a child.

:couch:
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Ok.

[arapaho2]

Yeah, Elway, Studesville, and Orton are all liars . . .

-----


someone may have mentioned a sore rib, bruised ribs... but top show me where his ribs were listed as and i quote " severely injured"...im no doctor.... the only severe rib injury is a broken rib...or a rib dislodged and seperated from the sternum


so which was it top...seperated or broken because either one would be a severe rib injury...just what was his "severe rib injury" that failed to show up on any weekly injury report?

other wise your drama queen excuse is growing old

[topscribe]

I was being sincere in my post and actually trying to talk football then you threw out that nonsense. No need for that shit man...we go too far back for that kind of crap.

Then talk football. I had responded to Rap's skewed representation of statistic,
then you said I was trying to justify something I was not trying to justify.

But I did over-react personally with you. I have been under ongoing personal
attack for my defense of Orton, which is the reason several are now on my
Ignore list. But you have not been a part of that. So I apologize. I'm sorry, SR.

-----

[topscribe]

someone may have mentioned a sore rib, bruised ribs... but top show me where his ribs were listed as and i quote " severely injured"...im no doctor.... the only severe rib injury is a broken rib...or a rib dislodged and seperated from the sternum


so which was it top...seperated or broken because either one would be a severe rib injury...just what was his "severe rib injury" that failed to show up on any weekly injury report?

other wise your drama queen excuse is growing old

No, your personal dispersions are growing old.

Pay attention to pressers and interviews. Then you will know what I know.

-----

[SR]

Then talk football. I had responded to Rap's skewed representation of statistic,
then you said I was trying to justify something I was not trying to justify.

But I did over-react personally with you. I have been under ongoing personal
attack for my defense of Orton, which is the reason several are now on my
Ignore list. But you have not been a part of that. So I apologize. I'm sorry, SR.

-----

I am too Topper.

[arapaho2]

Yeah, Elway, Studesville, and Orton are all liars . . .

-----
answer the question ....moreno had a career day..the running game was devistating the chiefs...the bronco defense held the chiefs scoreless the entire second half...held them to 3 points in the 2nd,3rd and 4th qrts

while moreno put up 161 rushing yards...orton could only lead the offense to 2 measely FGs??? heres our posessions
P
P
P
FG
P
P
FG
KO fumble
P
P

so whats the excuse??? it was the perfect time for a qb to shine, running game unstoppable, defense playing lights out...and what happened? you cant use and i quote " severely injured ribs" without proof they were severely injured

[dogfish]

hey top, are you winning yet?


:heh:

[arapaho2]

No, your personal dispersions are growing old.

Pay attention to pressers and interviews. Then you will know what I know.

-----

yes weeks after the season elway mentioned orton had rib injury...thats your proof?

show me anywhere...any where where those ribs are listed as...again i quote "severely injured"

whats growing old is this lame excuse of severely injured ribs...without being able to provide one shred of evidence that orton in fact had and i quote " severely injured ribs"

im pretty sure the team would put a flack jacket on orton...positive they give a shot to kill the pain...

since you pay attention so well it should be a peice of cake to prove...ortons ribs were, and i quote "severely injured"

now im not saying you cant keep useing that lame excue in your mind...im just saying if your gonna keep insisting his ribs were, and i quote "severely injured"...provide proof

[topscribe]

proof they were severely injured

I am sure most, if not all, of the pressers and interviews can be accessed.
Check them out. Like I did. It's public record. I'm not going to go back and sort
through them just to bring proof to you. I don't feel a need to do that.

I just thought that more of you people would be more informed in these matters.
Guess I was wrong. But I would not make the claim unless it was there. I'm not
a fool . . .

Now, my discussion on this with you has come to an end.

-----

[jhns]

answer the question ....moreno had a career day..the running game was devistating the chiefs...the bronco defense held the chiefs scoreless the entire second half...held them to 3 points in the 2nd,3rd and 4th qrts

while moreno put up 161 rushing yards...orton could only lead the offense to 2 measely FGs??? heres our posessions
P
P
P
FG
P
P
FG
KO fumble
P
P

so whats the excuse??? it was the perfect time for a qb to shine, running game unstoppable, defense playing lights out...and what happened? you cant use and i quote " severely injured ribs" without proof they were severely injured

The excuse is Orton falls apart when the game is close. KC found the perfect solution for holding the Orton led offense in check.

[arapaho2]

I am sure most, if not all, of the pressers and interviews can be accessed.
Check them out. Like I did. It's public record. I'm not going to go back and sort
through them just to bring proof to you. I don't feel a need to do that.

I just thought that more of you people would be more informed in these matters.
Guess I was wrong. But I would not make the claim unless it was there. I'm not
a fool . . .

Now, my discussion on this with you has come to an end.

-----

im very well informed of the broncos...as a informed bronco fan, i have not once seen ortons ribs spoken of, written of, listed as, labled as, and i quote..."severely injured"


so provide this "Fool" proof other than your opinion and sketchy recollections...actual proof of these ,and i quote..."severely injured ribs"

[SR]

At this point you are arguing semantics. Orton's ribs were injured. The severity is really only known by a few people it seems. Speculate all you want...the point you're arguing is ******* irrelevant.

[LTC Pain]

im very well informed of the broncos...as a informed bronco fan, i have not once seen ortons ribs spoken of, written of, listed as, labled as, and i quote..."severely injured"


so provide this "Fool" proof other than your opinion and sketchy recollections...actual proof of these ,and i quote..."severely injured ribs"

Do a Google search for "Kyle Orton's rib injury" and you will get a plethora of hits about it. You two are splitting hairs over "severely" when boo-koo sites plainly indicate Orton was injured/limited to the point that TT had to come in. :salute:

[rcsodak]

I am sure most, if not all, of the pressers and interviews can be accessed.
Check them out. Like I did. It's public record. I'm not going to go back and sort
through them just to bring proof to you. I don't feel a need to do that.

I just thought that more of you people would be more informed in these matters.
Guess I was wrong. But I would not make the claim unless it was there. I'm not
a fool . . .

Now, my discussion on this with you has come to an end.

-----
Evidently some people here have never had a rib injury, or they wouldn't be in such a hurry to be making a fool of themselves.
It only hurts when you breathe and stuff. :coffee:
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[rcsodak]

The excuse is Orton falls apart when the game is close. KC found the perfect solution for holding the Orton led offense in check.

Yeah, cuz their defense had nothing to do with it, right? And they weren't playing for something they hadn't even sniffed for EVER, right?
:rolleyes:
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[arapaho2]

Do a Google search for "Kyle Orton's rib injury" and you will get a plethora of hits about it. You two are splitting hairs over "severely" when boo-koo sites plainly indicate Orton was injured/limited to the point that TT had to come in. :salute:


i doubt theres a active starting qb that doesnt have sore ribs

lets just put this to bed...the topic isnt that tebow started because orton couldnt...the topic is the assumption that orton sucked so bad because he had severely injured ribs for his last games...infact the first mention of bruised ribs came after the AZ game...a week before he was benched

december 15th
Studesville also downplayed speculation that Orton's late-season collapse has been caused by injury, saying "A lot of guys are banged up right now." A lot of banged-up guys aren't playing as poorly as Orton, though. After two straight disaster games, .

december 15th
"I was throwing the ball 70 yards in practice last week. KO

december 16th
. He took a hard shot to the ribs Sunday, and the injury clearly affected his passing against the Cardinals.

that was the first mention of his ribs after he was injured in the AZ game...im just trying to understand how taking a hard shot and getting a rib injury in week 14...made him suck in week 13, wek 12 and so on

[jhildebrand]

And you are bashing Orton every chance you can while ignoring any underlying
reason for things happening the way they do.

I don't bash Orton every chance I get. I do however highlight the excuses that are made for him that weren't allowed for a guy like Cutler, Marshall, Scheffler, Hillis etc...

Believe it or not, Top, I have praised Orton too. The bottom line with that is you are making more of his injuries than ANYBODY ELSE has including Orton.

Orton proclaimed he could have played against Oak, Hou, and SD. So was he really that hurt????

The bottom line for me is Orton was resigned to mail in the rest of the season once McD was fired and IT SHOWED!!!!! You can make up all the excuses about the injuries you want, TOP. The guy said he was ready to play.


So what you want is to be able to bash him without disagreement, right?

Nope. I want to be able to legitimately discuss him being the QB without making injuries worse/less than they were, without trying to extrapolate stats from another QB i.e. Palmer, pretend that the cliche speak from guys like Elway can be taken at face value. That would be a good start Top.

5-21 TOP! 5 and 21 over the last 26.



Other than that, I caught your allusion that I'm a liar, that I didn't hear the
things I say I did. Thank you. But I understand. There was no holocaust.

Spare me the bullshit, top. If i wanted to call you a liar I would simply call you a liar. Get your panties untwisted and read precisely what I said. I said I follow this team closely and have yet to see or hear anything of which you claim. Instead of getting your feelings hurt, why not post as much as a link? :confused: Afterall, you seem to be Orton's unofficial fan club organizer. I am sure you have it somewhere.



Yep, your thoroughly bashing me has brought out the truth: Orton is a bum.

That better?

Nope. I am not bashing you (until now), Top. The truth is there are some things Orton does very well. However, FOR ME I don't see that as enough FOR ME to continue to want him to remain the starter of the Broncos AND STAYING ON TOPIC, I don't think other teams are wowed by him either. I don't see, and haven't since day one, the values that some people claim Orton will bring.



Nonetheless, stop that "excuse" shit. Excuses are provided a reasons for
failures. Orton needs no "excuses."

THEY ARE EXCUSES TOP! If he was good enough to play with two bad ankles as you proclaim, then he and the team must have felt that ORTON was OUR BEST OPPORTUNITY TO WIN. They didn't win. 5-21 Top. If he was so hurt as you proclaim then he shouldn't have been on the field. You can't have it both ways.



He played solidly throughout 2009, and he
played "at a record-shattering, Pro Bowl level" (per John Elway) until his final
two games when all the sudden something went wrong.

But he vehimently proclaimed he was ready to play. So either he wasn't injured and was mailing it in as I said and almost every media member in this town following his getting waxed by the AZ cardinals or he is injury prone. Which is it? I take the guy at his word that he could have played and wanted to play.

By the way, what records did Orton break? :confused: Cutler too was on a record setting pace and all anybody wanted to focus on was 8-8. :noidea: Why does the argument change now.

Also, you were the one to highlight that this team was terrible running the ball. You don't think that played into Orton's numbers?



shallow thinkers

Nice shot, Top. For a guy who complains about people taking shots :rolleyes: So people who see something different in Orton must be "shallow thinkers?" :rolleyes:



But the point is, Orton played well despite the injuries and other obstacles.

You continue to insist that. However, when people bring up legitimate facts and stats about Orton's numbers then you proclaim it was only because he was injured. Hiss 3rd down conversion rate was him playing well? His 53% completion rate down by 7 is playing well? His numbers behind the 50 are playing well? Or is that when the injury limited him? Then disappeared on the other side of the 50?



Those are not excuses. Quite the opposite: They are commendations and
achievements of which not all quarterbacks would have been capable.

They are excuses for the results Orton produced when he played. Again, if he was good enough to play...

[NameUsedBefore]

Tebow can carry a team. Orton cannot.

Orton would be a nice QB to have if the Broncos were not a godawful team. He is perfect for a team that has a strong defense or offense. He is a pretty damn good game manager in that sense, but he is not going to go out there and flat out win you games. There is empirical evidence across the board that Orton is not the QB you want if your team is struggling.

[jhildebrand]

"I'd love to play it out," Orton said. "It wasn't my decision. There was nothing I could do. . . . The way it was presented to me was he'll be the starter the rest of the season and that's just how it goes."

"I should be ready this week."

Blah blah blah

"Orton, who exited the loss in Arizona with sore ribs" Orton didn't injure the ribs until AZ. As clearly stated. So it must have been his ankles and finger that were affecting him for the other 12.

[jhns]

Yeah, cuz their defense had nothing to do with it, right? And they weren't playing for something they hadn't even sniffed for EVER, right?
:rolleyes:
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

I said that team had the perfect game plan. Since when did the team not include the defense? Do you ever make sense?

[jhildebrand]

I said that team had the perfect game plan. Since when did the team not include the defense? Do you ever make sense?

RC just likes to chime in on other posters' responses. Rarely is there any kind of original thought or point from RC. He is simply here to cheer on the likes of Top and JR when he feels their arguments fit his need.

Oh and he likes to brag about how awesome his iggy list is :rolleyes:

[topscribe]

"I'd love to play it out," Orton said. "It wasn't my decision. There was nothing I could do. . . . The way it was presented to me was he'll be the starter the rest of the season and that's just how it goes."

"I should be ready this week."

Blah blah blah

"Orton, who exited the loss in Arizona with sore ribs" Orton didn't injure the ribs until AZ. As clearly stated. So it must have been his ankles and finger that were affecting him for the other 12.

Oh, you're talking about the stretch of games that he was playing "at a record-
shattering, Pro Bowl level" (per John Elway)? That other 12? (Well, 11 of
those 12). Until "those rib injuries" (per John Elway)?

So because Orton exited because he couldn't take the pain anymore is proof
positive to you that AZ was the first his ribs were injured? Had you watched
the SL game, you would have seen the same thing I did: Orton was blasted in
the ribs so hard that it took a long time for him to get up, and he was helped
off the field, and Tebow started to warm up. However, Orton came back in
and threw three TD passes in the fourth quarter.

It happened again in the KC game to the other side. Kyle should have been
yanked at that point -- in fact, he should not have been allowed to start
that game.

But the fact he denied it is just like Kyle. He denied the high ankle sprain in
2008. He denied them in 2009. That doesn't mean he did not suffer the
injuries -- that is public record. It was only after 2009 that he admitted the
high ankle sprains, and it was only after 2010 he admitted the rib injuries,
which he indicated were on both sides. That is available in a presser or
interview of his -- I don't remember which.

Time to stop being in denial when even Elway metioned his rib injuries. That,
also, is available in one of his pressers . . .

-----

[cuzz4169]

In no way can I see Denver getting a 2nd for Orton. With Kolb and possibly Palmer on the market he is not the top QB to trade for. If we could I would be pumped..3rd and 5th is about right for his value.

Remember I said this who ever trades for Orton if he does get traded..he will not be that teams starter at the end of the season. One thing about Mcdouch he's pretty good with QBs he made Orton look 5x better than he really is.

Top I gotta send ya a pm: I changed my stance on draft.

[NameUsedBefore]

So because Orton exited because he couldn't take the pain anymore is proof
positive to you that AZ was the first his ribs were injured? Had you watched
the SL game, you would have seen the same thing I did: Orton was blasted in
the ribs so hard that it took a long time for him to get up, and he was helped
off the field, and Tebow started to warm up. However, Orton came back in
and threw three TD passes in the fourth quarter.
-----

St. Louis game was a reflection of most of Orton's season.

Get blown out. Pad stats in the fourth.

[topscribe]

RC just likes to chime in on other posters' responses. Rarely is there any kind of original thought or point from RC. He is simply here to cheer on the likes of Top and JR when he feels their arguments fit his need.

Oh and he likes to brag about how awesome his iggy list is :rolleyes:

Yes, RC is the topic in this thread, isn't he?

Nice trolling . . . :coffee:

-----

[jhns]

Evidently some people here have never had a rib injury, or they wouldn't be in such a hurry to be making a fool of themselves.
It only hurts when you breathe and stuff. :coffee:
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

I seperated multiple ribs on my right side last summer. I didn't break any but ripped the cartilage between them. It is a debilitating injury. If Orton did anything close to that, he would have really favored that side. You would have seen the pain any time he got touched. I still have those games recorded. I will watch some this weekend and see if that is the case. I sure don't remember seeing it.

[Bullgator]

I would argue that Orton never played well at anytime. Throwing between the twenties is almost as useless as the color of his socks. They may look good but what about the end result? Did they have an affect of the outcome of the game in a positive way? No. 20 tds? horrible for 13 games in a pass happy O 20 TDs is HORRIBLE!

KO played HORRIBLE!

QB rating rank 15!
Pass TD rank 17!
comp % rank 24!

34 sacks, sure the Oline wasnt probowl calibur but we all know a large portion of them were KOs inability to escape the rush. he just pulled down his jjjaque strap'e and bent over

How much more proof do we need?

[jhns]

Oh, you're talking about the stretch of games that he was playing "at a record-
shattering, Pro Bowl level" (per John Elway)? That other 12?

Yes, the other 12 in which he was very mediocre. What Elway says about a player he puts up for trade, doesn't mean much. That same Elway has also talked multiple times about how much of a mistake the trade for Orton was. He offered him up to the league with the starting price being one second. I don't think he is nearly as impressed as you are trying to claim.

[jhildebrand]

Oh, you're talking about the stretch of games that he was playing "at a record-
shattering, Pro Bowl level" (per John Elway)? That other 12? (Well, 11 of
those 12). Until "those rib injuries" (per John Elway)?

I am curious as to why John Elway is such a great source for you on this Top when he wasn't even part of the team at the time!



So because Orton exited because he couldn't take the pain anymore is proof
positive to you that AZ was the first his ribs were injured?

No. The quote I posted was from an article. Unlike you, I choose to support my statements with some kind of proof. The very first mention of Orton's ribs being a concern were following the AZ game.

If I wanted to be like you I could also claim I saw a PHANTOM SACK against SF in London that took him some time to get off the ground as well. Maybe it was the gimpy ankles you swear by.



It happened again in the KC game to the other side. Kyle should have been
yanked at that point -- in fact, he should not have been allowed to start
that game.

But the fact he denied it is just like Kyle. He denied the high ankle sprain in
2008. He denied them in 2009. That doesn't mean he did not suffer the
injuries -- that is public record. It was only after 2009 that he admitted the
high ankle sprains, and it was only after 2010 he admitted the rib injuries,
which he indicated were on both sides. That is available in a presser or
interview of his -- I don't remember which.

Time to stop being in denial when even Elway metioned his rib injuries. That,
also, is available in one of his pressers . . .

-----

Again Elway wasn't part of the team at the time nor could he have any real clue as to precisely how injured Orton was. I think we all can understand why Elway MIGHT be saying what he is.

As for the rest of your argument, Top if everyone is to believe what you post then we must accept that Orton is simply INJURY PRONE!

[jhildebrand]

Yes, RC is the topic in this thread, isn't he?

Nice trolling . . . :coffee:

-----

RC made himself the topic by riding your jockeys as he usually does instead of debating and posting the topic at hand, Top. You sure like your double standards don't you?!

Your trolling is quite nice and sophisticated, too. :coffee:

[jhildebrand]

34 sacks, sure the Oline wasnt probowl calibur but we all know a large portion of them were KOs inability to escape the rush. he just pulled down his jjjaque strap'e and bent over

How much more proof do we need?

Funny how the line was probowl caliber when Cutler played behind it :coffee:

Funny how that very same line didn't look nearly as bad with Tebow behind it :coffee:

If you listen to TOP it is because they magically got better all of a sudden.

If you listen to me it is because Tebow isn't like Orton and didn't hold on to the ball too long, doesn't constantly look for the check down, and actually can scramble. Call me crazy!

[topscribe]

RC made himself the topic by riding your jockeys as he usually does instead of debating and posting the topic at hand, Top. You sure like your double standards don't you?!

Your trolling is quite nice and sophisticated, too. :coffee:

Fine. I'll just put you on Ignore then. You don't want to post with a troll, right?

Is that what you would prefer I do?

Never mind: The way you have gotten so personal, I'll go ahead and do it. And
to think I actually respected you. You can respond if you want, but I won't see it.

-----

[rcsodak]

I said that team had the perfect game plan. Since when did the team not include the defense? Do you ever make sense?

Nice try.


But please tell me, oh smart one, when does a team PURPOSEFULLY not deploy a defense?

Really.....quit trying to play the 'smart one' mantra....it's not that fitting. :rolleyes:

[jhildebrand]

Fine. I'll just put you on Ignore then. You don't want to post with a troll, right? :coffee:

-----

Do what ever the F you want, Top. Just don't puttin yourself on a damn pedestal re RC when HE CHOSE TO POST SOMETHING THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POST AT HAND. You and I both know his post is every bit as much an act of trolling as mine and your responding to it the way you did was as well.

I am curious why some people even bother being here when their precious little iggy list is 90% full. If you can't handle it try an iVillage forum.

[rcsodak]

In no way can I see Denver getting a 2nd for Orton. With Kolb and possibly Palmer on the market he is not the top QB to trade for. If we could I would be pumped..3rd and 5th is about right for his value.

Remember I said this who ever trades for Orton if he does get traded..he will not be that teams starter at the end of the season. One thing about Mcdouch he's pretty good with QBs he made Orton look 5x better than he really is.

Top I gotta send ya a pm: I changed my stance on draft.

Well, your opine is 180 degrees different than ex-nfl players/GM's, coach.

They say he's the BEST option for a team that wants to win now...and is DEFINITELY worth a 2.

Always good to see team fans downgrading their own players' worth.

[Bullgator]

Funny how the line was probowl caliber when Cutler played behind it :coffee:

Funny how that very same line didn't look nearly as bad with Tebow behind it :coffee:

If you listen to TOP it is because they magically got better all of a sudden.

If you listen to me it is because Tebow isn't like Orton and didn't hold on to the ball too long, doesn't constantly look for the check down, and actually can scramble. Call me crazy!

its redonkulous. there IS no arguement to keep him IMO.

AT BEST the only arguement people have is that hes always been injured. as if being made of balsa wood is a reason to keep him on.

PS: im on Tops ignore list and i have to say its been peaceful ever since.

[jhildebrand]

I am still waiting to hear why you believe Elway is such a great source on Orton considering he wasn't even part of the team at the time? Or why Elway's comments should be taken at face value DESPITE having offered Orton up, as JHNS pointed out.

Or am I on your iggy already?

[rcsodak]

Yes, RC is the topic in this thread, isn't he?

Nice trolling . . . :coffee:

-----

I KNEW there was a reason I had jhil on iggy.....

Thx for reminding me, top.

And jhil....when you have ANYTHING to do with decision making on the board, let me know, k?

TIA.

:rolleyes:

[jhildebrand]

its redonkulous. there IS no arguement to keep him IMO.


I would be alright going into camp with an open competition between Tebow and Orton had he handled Tebow's starting with any dignity and class. That, coupled with quitting against KC and AZ, was enough for me.

[jhildebrand]

I KNEW there was a reason I had jhil on iggy.....

Thx for reminding me, top.

And jhil....when you have ANYTHING to do with decision making on the board, let me know, k?

TIA.

:rolleyes:

Take your iggy list into a dark closet and shove it up your anus, RC.

Why not try posting on the topic at hand as opposed to being a little league cheerleader or jockey rider for other posters! There's a novel idea. Or are you not mentally capable of forming your own thoughts and opinions? Nevermind! Don't answer that.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Let's try to get all of these stories straight. Here is the article talking about Orton's rib injury, which happened during the Arizona game - a week after the KC game. Didn't appear very serious.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/The-Morning-After-Week-14/2de3b361-2965-4785-96ed-001424fdde54

This one also addresses the rib injury suffered in the 3rd quarter.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/Disappointment-in-the-Desert/ac638a23-01e1-4f5f-907c-0fee73d1f18b

Here is the link to the interview before the Oakland game (the week after his "serious rib injury") where Orton says he's not hurt "just sore" and was throwing 70 yards in practice.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5923215


I think it's safe to say that Orton was hurt, it wasn't that serious, and it was an excuse to see what Tebow had for the last 3 games. If Orton really was as hurt as the Broncos were reporting, he wouldn't have been so butt-hurt at being benched.

At the very least, his "serious rib injury" was for part of the 3rd and then the 4th quarter of the Arizona game only. There really isn't any injury excuse for the KC game or the first 3/4 of the AZ game...

Just the facts, ma'am. :yo:

[jhildebrand]

Caught this just before I put you on Ignore.

YOU go to another board. I was the FIRST poster on this board. I am a FOUNDER.
I am tired of you grown-up adolescents inviting me to go to another board. No
one else does, except those of you who are either on Ignore or are headed
there, like now . . .

-----

My day wont be the same knowing I am on Top's iggy list! :rolleyes:

Too bad you can't answer such an easy question re Elway. Funny how that works Top.

By the way Congrats on being the FIRST poster here. Did you get a certificate of achievement for that? Who F-ing cares? NOBODY!

As for grown up adolescents, take a look in the mirror....:beer:

[topscribe]

In no way can I see Denver getting a 2nd for Orton. With Kolb and possibly Palmer on the market he is not the top QB to trade for. If we could I would be pumped..3rd and 5th is about right for his value.

Remember I said this who ever trades for Orton if he does get traded..he will not be that teams starter at the end of the season. One thing about Mcdouch he's pretty good with QBs he made Orton look 5x better than he really is.

Top I gotta send ya a pm: I changed my stance on draft.

Your PMs are always welcome. And kudos to you and Chaz: Opposite sides
from me on Orton, yet your debates are respectful, and you stick to the
issue. Too bad your respective examples are not noted by some others
here.

Proud to have you as a friend . . . :salute:

P.S. And HP, too. Just saw his post, and I love them, even though I disagree
with many of them.

-----

[jhns]

Nice try.


But please tell me, oh smart one, when does a team PURPOSEFULLY not deploy a defense?

Really.....quit trying to play the 'smart one' mantra....it's not that fitting. :rolleyes:

I said they purposfully did not deploy a defense? That is news to me.

Again, are you even capable of making sense?

[jhildebrand]

Let's try to get all of these stories straight. Here is the article talking about Orton's rib injury, which happened during the Arizona game - a week after the KC game. Didn't appear very serious.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/The-Morning-After-Week-14/2de3b361-2965-4785-96ed-001424fdde54

This one also addresses the rib injury suffered in the 3rd quarter.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/Disappointment-in-the-Desert/ac638a23-01e1-4f5f-907c-0fee73d1f18b

Here is the link to the interview before the Oakland game (the week after his "serious rib injury") where Orton says he's not hurt "just sore" and was throwing 70 yards in practice.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5923215


I think it's safe to say that Orton was hurt, it wasn't that serious, and it was an excuse to see what Tebow had for the last 3 games. If Orton really was as hurt as the Broncos were reporting, he wouldn't have been so butt-hurt at being benched.

At the very least, his "serious rib injury" was for part of the 3rd and then the 4th quarter of the Arizona game only. There really isn't any injury excuse for the KC game or the first 3/4 of the AZ game...

Just the facts, ma'am. :yo:

I posted some of the quotes from those articles. Top isn't about to let facts get in the way of his bromance with Orton. He don't know how to quit him.

[Bullgator]

I would be alright going into camp with an open competition between Tebow and Orton had he handled Tebow's starting with any dignity and class. That, coupled with quitting against KC and AZ, was enough for me.

he did act like a spoiled child. thats what you get when a job is handed to you, you think its your right and not a privilege. Thats MY lolipop! Gimmie!!

now compair that with this: "I love competing, and I'm excited about that challenge and the opportunity as well," Tebow said. "It doesn't matter until you go out there and start competing. That's my attitude."

thats why im ok with the open comp. there is no doubt in my mind TT will win it out.

it just chaps my ass that we have to pay 8.9 mil to a crybaby backup

[TXBRONC]

Let's try to get all of these stories straight. Here is the article talking about Orton's rib injury, which happened during the Arizona game - a week after the KC game. Didn't appear very serious.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/The-Morning-After-Week-14/2de3b361-2965-4785-96ed-001424fdde54

This one also addresses the rib injury suffered in the 3rd quarter.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/Disappointment-in-the-Desert/ac638a23-01e1-4f5f-907c-0fee73d1f18b

Here is the link to the interview before the Oakland game (the week after his "serious rib injury") where Orton says he's not hurt "just sore" and was throwing 70 yards in practice.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5923215


I think it's safe to say that Orton was hurt, it wasn't that serious, and it was an excuse to see what Tebow had for the last 3 games. If Orton really was as hurt as the Broncos were reporting, he wouldn't have been so butt-hurt at being benched.

At the very least, his "serious rib injury" was for part of the 3rd and then the 4th quarter of the Arizona game only. There really isn't any injury excuse for the KC game or the first 3/4 of the AZ game...

Just the facts, ma'am. :yo:

Exactly the ribs weren't issue. In fact there were no excuses being made when Orton claimed he was throwing 70 yard bombs in practice.

[topscribe]

Let's try to get all of these stories straight. Here is the article talking about Orton's rib injury, which happened during the Arizona game - a week after the KC game. Didn't appear very serious.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/The-Morning-After-Week-14/2de3b361-2965-4785-96ed-001424fdde54

This one also addresses the rib injury suffered in the 3rd quarter.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/Disappointment-in-the-Desert/ac638a23-01e1-4f5f-907c-0fee73d1f18b

Here is the link to the interview before the Oakland game (the week after his "serious rib injury") where Orton says he's not hurt "just sore" and was throwing 70 yards in practice.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5923215


I think it's safe to say that Orton was hurt, it wasn't that serious, and it was an excuse to see what Tebow had for the last 3 games. If Orton really was as hurt as the Broncos were reporting, he wouldn't have been so butt-hurt at being benched.

At the very least, his "serious rib injury" was for part of the 3rd and then the 4th quarter of the Arizona game only. There really isn't any injury excuse for the KC game or the first 3/4 of the AZ game...

Just the facts, ma'am. :yo:

All I know, HP, is what Orton SAID, and Studesville SAID, and Elway SAID. And
what I SAW.

And I know how a rib injury really feels . . .

And I know that there has to be a REASON Orton SUDDENLY stunk in the KC
game, when in the previous three games he threw for 860 yards, 8 TDs against
1 INT, and a 105 QBR. There is a CAUSE for every EFFECT. To just dismiss it
as "Orton sucks" is shallow thinking

And by "shallow thinking," BTW, I mean simply a failure to delve beneath the
surface and investigate, rather than draw conclusions based on superficial
observations. (To those who became offended at the term, I can't help it if
you identified yourselves.)

-----

[rcsodak]

Do what ever the F you want, Top. Just don't puttin yourself on a damn pedestal re RC when HE CHOSE TO POST SOMETHING THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POST AT HAND. You and I both know his post is every bit as much an act of trolling as mine and your responding to it the way you did was as well.

I am curious why some people even bother being here when their precious little iggy list is 90% full. If you can't handle it try an iVillage forum.

You're like the lint in my butt crack.....annoying but easy to ignore.

:coffee:


edit:shoulda said bellybutton/my bad

[vandammage13]

Let's try to get all of these stories straight. Here is the article talking about Orton's rib injury, which happened during the Arizona game - a week after the KC game. Didn't appear very serious.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/The-Morning-After-Week-14/2de3b361-2965-4785-96ed-001424fdde54

This one also addresses the rib injury suffered in the 3rd quarter.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/Disappointment-in-the-Desert/ac638a23-01e1-4f5f-907c-0fee73d1f18b

Here is the link to the interview before the Oakland game (the week after his "serious rib injury") where Orton says he's not hurt "just sore" and was throwing 70 yards in practice.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5923215


I think it's safe to say that Orton was hurt, it wasn't that serious, and it was an excuse to see what Tebow had for the last 3 games. If Orton really was as hurt as the Broncos were reporting, he wouldn't have been so butt-hurt at being benched.

At the very least, his "serious rib injury" was for part of the 3rd and then the 4th quarter of the Arizona game only. There really isn't any injury excuse for the KC game or the first 3/4 of the AZ game...

Just the facts, ma'am. :yo:

NO NO NO!!! Orton was hurt for 3 games, Top said so!!! Damn the Facts!!!!

[jhns]

You're like the lint in my butt crack.....annoying but easy to ignore.

:coffee:

Says the guy that didn't ignore him.

[Juriga72]

Let me get this right.....

WHEN Kyle was "Tearing it up" like say...against Seattle...THEN he was "Playing at a Pro Bowl level"....

When Cutler did something NO OTHER qb had in 50 years against that same Seattle team, granted it was in a playoff game that MANY here never said jay could "lead his team to".....

"Seattle is the WORST EVER!!!!!!!!! Playoff team". tho they had just put 41 points on the defending Super Bowl winners.....

Just trying to get the level of suckness for Kyle just right....

[Bullgator]

You're like the lint in my butt crack.....annoying but easy to ignore.

:coffee:

wearing a sheepswool thong RC lawlz :caked:

[topscribe]

Exactly the ribs weren't issue. In fact there were no excuses being made when Orton claimed he was throwing 70 yard bombs in practice.



But the fact he denied it is just like Kyle. He denied the high ankle sprain in
2008. He denied them in 2009. That doesn't mean he did not suffer the
injuries -- that is public record. It was only after 2009 that he admitted the
high ankle sprains, and it was only after 2010 he admitted the rib injuries,
which he indicated were on both sides. That is available in a presser or
interview of his -- I don't remember which.


-----

[vandammage13]

All I know, HP, is what Orton SAID, and Studesville SAID, and Elway SAID. And
what I SAW.

And I know how a rib injury really feels . . .

And I know that there has to be a REASON Orton SUDDENLY stunk in the KC
game, when in the previous three games he threw for 860 yards, 8 TDs against
1 INT, and a 105 QBR. There is a CAUSE for every EFFECT. To just dismiss it
as "Orton sucks" is shallow thinking

And by "shallow thinking," BTW, I mean simply a failure to delve beneath the
surface and investigate, rather than draw conclusions based on superficial
observations. (To those who became offended at the term, I can't help it if
you identified yourselves.)

-----

How about inconsistent? Can you at least acknowledge that? Whether he is classified as bad, or inconsistent, both are damning indictments if you hope to have a QB capable of at least "game managing" you to the superbowl.

So I'll concede and agree that Orton is not a bad QB...He's an inconsistent game managing QB....Still not what I'm looking for in a QB

[rcsodak]

I said they purposfully did not deploy a defense? That is news to me.

Again, are you even capable of making sense?

:laugh: Sorry....but that's the only thing I could get out of your hastily made post. Can't help it when you can't make your point....take it out on your teachers.

:laugh:

[Bullgator]

well since being hurt is a mark of a great QB maybe we could scour the ERs for people in traction... they must be AWSOME

[Ravage!!!]

Seems anytime Orton plays badly, we have the "he was hurt" excuse. He didn't win when healthy, and he has the "but he had a bad team around him," Excuse. Poor third down conversion ratio, not to mention a HORRIBLE record anytime down, and a HORRENDOUS propensity to fail when having the ball last to win the game....are all do to not everything being perfect around him.

Kyle is not a winner. Is not a leader of men. He's a guy that will do everything he can to NOT lose the game, but can't do enough to win it. When things go wrong, he's injured, newly or "never recovered" from prior injuries. All of which give him the "bye" for his lack of quality play in big moments.

[Ravage!!!]

O
But the fact he denied it is just like Kyle. He denied the high ankle sprain in
2008. He denied them in 2009. That doesn't mean he did not suffer the
injuries -- that is public record. It was only after 2009 that he admitted the
high ankle sprains, and it was only after 2010 he admitted the rib injuries,
which he indicated were on both sides. That is available in a presser or
interview of his -- I don't remember which.


-----

Seems he only brings up his mysterious injuries after he's being questioned about his poor play. Odd that it would come up then.

[rcsodak]

NO NO NO!!! Orton was hurt for 3 games, Top said so!!! Damn the Facts!!!!

Oh, so this is an example of what jhil was talking about?

K.

Gotcha.

:rolleyes:

[vandammage13]

Oh, so this is an example of what jhil was talking about?

K.

Gotcha.

:rolleyes:

Hello, Pot....

Just having a little bit of fun at Top's expense. I'm sure you can relate.

[topscribe]

Seems he only brings up his mysterious injuries after he's being questioned about his poor play. Odd that it would come up then.

He wasn't questioned about his play. IIRC, he was questioned as to how badly
he had been injured and what precisely was injured. He answered the question
as it was asked, after the season was over.

You are making empty assumptions, then treating them as facts.

I am who went to the trouble of investigating why Kyle SUDDENLY was playing
poorly after THE PREVIOUS THREE GAMES he threw for 860 yards, 8 TDs against
1 INT, and a 105 QBR. There is a CAUSE for every EFFECT. I went after the
CAUSE, obviously something few on this board did.

-----

[jhns]

:laugh: Sorry....but that's the only thing I could get out of your hastily made post. Can't help it when you can't make your point....take it out on your teachers.

:laugh:

You could just read what it said and stop making up lines to randomly add to it. That would be a good start.

[jhildebrand]

You're like the lint in my butt crack.....annoying but easy to ignore.

:coffee:


No wonder I keep seeing 2 tiny shriveled little raisins. Thanks for clearing that up for me, RC. Now could you please wipe this milky, white substance from your anus? it is occupying too much space in your butt crack! TIA RC.

EDIT: Interesting that TOP wasn't here to decry a post such as RC's above as trolling. :2cents:

[jhns]

He wasn't questioned about his play. IIRC, he was questioned as to how badly
he had been injured and what precisely was injured. He answered the question
as it was asked, after the season was over.

You are making empty assumptions, then treating them as facts.

I am who went to the trouble of investigating why Kyle SUDDENLY was playing
poorly after THE PREVIOUS THREE GAMES he threw for 860 yards, 8 TDs against
1 INT, and a 105 QBR. There is a CAUSE for every EFFECT. I went after the
CAUSE, obviously something few on this board did.

-----

The cause could also be the defense he played, or the fact that he put up the "good" stats when we were being blown out, as he always does. Those last games were closer, he didn't get his normal garbage time.

Your "investigation" is useless as you have continually shown that it didn't turn up any evidence tovsupport your case.

[jhildebrand]

Maybe it was because he didn't have illegal film on them like he, in my opinion, probably had the first time around against KC.

[Ravage!!!]

He wasn't questioned about his play. IIRC, he was questioned as to how badly
he had been injured and what precisely was injured. He answered the question
as it was asked, after the season was over.

You are making empty assumptions, then treating them as facts.

I am who went to the trouble of investigating why Kyle SUDDENLY was playing
poorly after THE PREVIOUS THREE GAMES he threw for 860 yards, 8 TDs against
1 INT, and a 105 QBR. There is a CAUSE for every EFFECT. I went after the
CAUSE, obviously something few on this board did.

-----

You went looking for excuses, and see what you want to see. Just like anyone else that is looking to defend someone. You see what you want, and don't see what you don't want to see. You went looking for 'reasons' and you feel you found it because it fits for your need. You'll continue to try an tell us how these are facts, and they cant' be denied, and you know the truth and everyone else is blind (and and and and and and and).

Unfortunately, thats just not how most people are going to see it. They are going to take the evidence that has presented itself by the prior seasons that Orton has played, apply it to what they see on the field, and come to the conclusion that Orton just is not the QB you continue to make him out to be.

Just because you "Feel you found" justification for Orton's play, doesn't mean its a fact... it just means it works for YOU and gives YOU reason to believe those excuses...IE: "causes."

Now I'll grant you that the same can be said for those that bash Orton to the extreme. Their opinion is just as jaded as yours is to the other end of the spectrum.

[topscribe]

You went looking for excuses, and see what you want to see. Just like anyone else that is looking to defend someone. You see what you want, and don't see what you don't want to see. You went looking for 'reasons' and you feel you found it because it fits for your need. You'll continue to try an tell us how these are facts, and they cant' be denied, and you know the truth and everyone else is blind (and and and and and and and).

Unfortunately, thats just not how most people are going to see it. They are going to take the evidence that has presented itself by the prior seasons that Orton has played, apply it to what they see on the field, and come to the conclusion that Orton just is not the QB you continue to make him out to be.

Just because you "Feel you found" justification for Orton's play, doesn't mean its a fact... it just means it works for YOU and gives YOU reason to believe those excuses...er..... reasons.

Now I'll grant you that the same can be said for those that bash Orton to the extreme. Their opinion is just as jaded as yours is to the other end of the spectrum.

Ravage, I heard what was said, as it was said. I read what was written, as iit
was written. I am THE one to come up with ANY reason for Kyle's SUDDEN
play in the last two games. Period. Everyone else's reasoning is, "Duh, he suks."

Now, after presenting your empty assumptions as "fact," your implications
about what I wrote appear silly at best.

So your only option is to represent my findings as "excuses." You're at a loss,
aren't you?

-----

[jhns]

Ravage, I heard what was said, as it was said. I read what was written, as iit
was written. I am THE one to come up with ANY reason for Kyle's SUDDEN
play in the last two games. Period. Everyone else's reasoning is, "Duh, he suks."

Now, after presenting your empty assumptions as "fact," your implications
about what I wrote appear silly at best.

So your only option is to represent my findings as "excuses." You're at a loss,
aren't you?

-----

You are the only one that has studied the situation? Wow....

Everyone that is showing facts, backed up with proof, is not qualified to talk about this? The guy that can't back a single thing that he claims is the only one that knows? For as much as you cry about others, you are the most disrespectful individual on this board.

[jhildebrand]

Now, after presenting your empty assumptions as "fact," your implications
about what I wrote appear silly at best.

So your only option is to represent my findings as "excuses." You're at a loss,
aren't you?

-----

Wow that is rich!

Considering HorsePower and others have presented articles and quotes to support their argument and you have yet to provide anything besides what you heard and read. :noidea:

Oh well, Top is our resident Orton expert and he knows the most.

[I Eat Staples]

Orton might not be the 3rd best QB available if there is a free agency period that is anything close to normal.

Carson Palmer
Matt Hasselbeck
Kevin Kolb

come to mind.

Damn, putting him below Hasselbeck? That's just low. Palmer is way past his prime, and Kolb is young with upside but looked like trash when he got a chance for most of the year. I think Kolb may be valued higher than Orton by some teams, but not the other two.

I say Orton is worth a second, but a third and fifth wouldn't be a complete rip off. Maybe the most fair trade would be a 3rd this year and a 3rd next year.

[arapaho2]

Fine. I'll just put you on Ignore then. You don't want to post with a troll, right?

Is that what you would prefer I do?

Never mind: The way you have gotten so personal, I'll go ahead and do it. And
to think I actually respected you. You can respond if you want, but I won't see it.

-----


putting someone on iggy just because he shredded your aurgument only serves to prove how weak your entire aurguemnt was top...its also a bit childish

however it is your right :coffee:

[Bullgator]

Damn, putting him below Hasselbeck? That's just low. Palmer is way past his prime, and Kolb is young with upside but looked like trash when he got a chance for most of the year. I think Kolb may be valued higher than Orton by some teams, but not the other two.

I say Orton is worth a second, but a third and fifth wouldn't be a complete rip off. Maybe the most fair trade would be a 3rd this year and a 3rd next year.

hasslebeck has been to a superbowl... hasselbeck > KO in every stat and catagory

[topscribe]

putting someone on iggy just because he shredded your aurgument only serves to prove how weak your entire aurguemnt was top...its also a bit childish

however it is your right :coffee:

Putting someone on Ignore because of personal attacks is mature. Getting
involved in personal dispersions toward others is childish. Learn from it.

Notice I haven't put all anti-Orton posters on Ignore, including you. I'm
pleased to post with those who stick to the issue and debate the issue.
(But that does not always include you.)

And you are correct, for once: It is my right. :coffee:

-----

[I Eat Staples]

hasslebeck has been to a superbowl... hasselbeck > KO in every stat and catagory

Come on, what kind of logic is that? Brad Johnson has won a superbowl but he isn't even better than Brady Quinn right now.

[arapaho2]

All I know, HP, is what Orton SAID, and Studesville SAID, and Elway SAID. And
what I SAW.

And I know how a rib injury really feels . . .

And I know that there has to be a REASON Orton SUDDENLY stunk in the KC
game, when in the previous three games he threw for 860 yards, 8 TDs against
1 INT, and a 105 QBR. There is a CAUSE for every EFFECT. To just dismiss it
as "Orton sucks" is shallow thinking

And by "shallow thinking," BTW, I mean simply a failure to delve beneath the
surface and investigate, rather than draw conclusions based on superficial
observations. (To those who became offended at the term, I can't help it if
you identified yourselves.)

-----


lety me get this straight ole buddy....there is written and substantiated proof as to when orton was injured, how bad it was or how bad it wasnt, and words from ortons own mouth

collaberating the fact that he didnt hurt his ribs until the az game, after weeks of shitty play, a week before tebows first start...orton stated he could throw 70 yard bombs before the that same game...every injury statment from orton and the team states his ribs were ok...JUST SORE!

meanwhile your taking liberties with post season statments from the VP who wasnt a part of the team dureing the season...your taking your own opinions and presenting them as faCTS WITHOUT PROOF OTHER THEN..." I SEEN HIM GET HIT"

AND WE'RE THE ONES DRAWING CONCLUSIONS FROM SUPERFICIAL OBSERVATIONS????:lol::lol:

[arapaho2]

Putting someone on Ignore because of personal attacks is mature. Getting
involved in personal dispersions toward others is childish. Learn from it.

Notice I haven't put all anti-Orton posters on Ignore, including you. I'm
pleased to post with those who stick to the issue and debate the issue.
(But that does not always include you.)

And you are correct, for once: It is my right. :coffee:

-----
the way i see it top...you said just as much personaly shit as any one else....think about it, your not innocent

but theres an old addage...cant stand the heat, get outa the kitchen, i suppose

all anti orton posters on iggy......wow have fun talking to RC then:lol::lol:

[topscribe]

lety me get this straight ole buddy....there is written and substantiated proof as to when orton was injured, how bad it was or how bad it wasnt, and words from ortons own mouth

collaberating the fact that he didnt hurt his ribs until the az game, after weeks of shitty play, a week before tebows first start...orton stated he could throw 70 yard bombs before the that same game...every injury statment from orton and the team states his ribs were ok...JUST SORE!

meanwhile your taking liberties with post season statments from the VP who wasnt a part of the team dureing the season...your taking your own opinions and presenting them as faCTS WITHOUT PROOF OTHER THEN..." I SEEN HIM GET HIT"

AND WE'RE THE ONES DRAWING CONCLUSIONS FROM SUPERFICIAL OBSERVATIONS????:lol::lol:

News clips are not substantiated proof. Unless they support a lame argument,
such as yours, of course. Notice I mentioned what Orton AND Studesville AND
Elway said. They carry more credibility with me than news clips.

Now, again, to those who have led sheltered lives and need to get out more,
I know allllllllll about injured ribs. Alllllllll about them. It can be hard to BREATHE,
let alone throw a ball. But I have also tried to throw a ball with bruised ribs.
Frankly, I don't know how Kyle did it at all. But I do understand why he
SUDDENLY was playing poorly after 860 yards, 8 TDs and 1 INT, and a 105 QBR
in the previous three games. Having been there, I do understand that.

-----

[Bullgator]

Come on, what kind of logic is that? Brad Johnson has won a superbowl but he isn't even better than Brady Quinn right now.

id take brad johnson over KO lol... no but seriously if you compair hasselbecks stats and career its not even close, he beats KO in every single stat... not much to argue here. unless you think superbowls + stats+ wins+every other thing you judge a QB by doesnt matter...

[topscribe]

the way i see it top...you said just as much personaly shit as any one else....think about it, your not innocent

but theres an old addage...cant stand the heat, get outa the kitchen, i suppose

all anti orton posters on iggy......wow have fun talking to RC then:lol::lol:

Why are you trolling me? I just got through saying that not ALL anti-Orton
posters are on my Ignore, and now you just called me a LIAR. You used to be
a good poster, Rap. I don't know what happened to you, but you have been
little more than a troll lately.

Now, after YOU end up on my Ignore, you can take posts such as this and show
them as evidence that you out-debated me on Orton . . . even though you
never so much as mentioned him, except to call me a liar.


P.S. If you think all I have to talk to is RC, take a look at my 86 friends in my
profile. Oh, that's right . . . I don't think you can see it. Only my friends (and
mods, of course) have access to it . . .

-----

[jhildebrand]

Damn, putting him below Hasselbeck? That's just low.

Really? :confused:

I am curious why you believe that. Hasselbeck has battled multiple injuries as has Orton. Hasselbeck, with a new coach, a new system, new players made the playoffs and beat the defending SB champs.



Palmer is way past his prime,

People always make definitive statements like that about players only to see that they were wrong. I said at the beginning of the season that I felt Carson Palmer was intentionally trying to play his way out of Cinci!

All that aside, he is in a very tough division and is only a season removed from a sweep of that division!



and Kolb is young with upside but looked like trash when he got a chance for most of the year. I think Kolb may be valued higher than Orton by some teams, but not the other two.

Kolb when he played the second time after Vick was injured looked pretty good. I agree with you that his youth and upside will be a big determinant for teams.



I say Orton is worth a second, but a third and fifth wouldn't be a complete rip off. Maybe the most fair trade would be a 3rd this year and a 3rd next year.

I would be surprised if we got even one 3rd round pick. I would be happy with that and stoked with any additional compensation even if it were just a bag of M & M's.

[jhildebrand]

News clips are not substantiated proof. Unless they support a lame argument,
such as yours, of course. Notice I mentioned what Orton AND Studesville AND
Elway said. They carry more credibility with me than news clips.

Now, again, to those who have led sheltered lives and need to get out more,
I know allllllllll about injured ribs. Alllllllll about them. It can be hard to BREATHE,
let alone throw a ball. But I have also tried to throw a ball with bruised ribs.
Frankly, I don't know how Kyle did it at all. But I do understand why he
SUDDENLY was playing poorly after 860 yards, 8 TDs and 1 INT, and a 105 QBR
in the previous three games. Having been there, I do understand that.

-----Orton said he was throwing 70 yard bombs the same week. That came from Orton's mouth yet you continue to ignore it. :coffee:

[vandammage13]

Come on, what kind of logic is that? Brad Johnson has won a superbowl but he isn't even better than Brady Quinn right now.

Hasselbeck Playoff record just last year: 1-1

Orton Playoff record for entire career: 0-0

Hasselbeck still > than Orton....Even now.

[jhildebrand]

the way i see it top...you said just as much personaly shit as any one else....think about it, your not innocent

but theres an old addage...cant stand the heat, get outa the kitchen, i suppose

all anti orton posters on iggy......wow have fun talking to RC then:lol::lol:

Top had no problem being the first to throw out the insults and pot shots between the two of us during our "debate." I guess my skin is thick and I don't give a shit. I just wish he would get over his little complex and stop seeing himself as perfect. He is one of the first to cry when things get personal but at times is the first to make it personal.

More than one poster here has provided some kind of support for their argument and top insists on playing the "I seen it with my own 2 eyes" argument. Whatever! I wish he would just state it as his PERCEPTION and not fact.

These guys seem to be real proud of their iggys and friend lists :rolleyes: It is a ******* message board for football talk. WOW! DREAM BIG!

[arapaho2]

News clips are not substantiated proof. Unless they support a lame argument,
such as yours, of course. Notice I mentioned what Orton AND Studesville AND
Elway said. They carry more credibility with me than news clips.

Now, again, to those who have led sheltered lives and need to get out more,
I know allllllllll about injured ribs. Alllllllll about them. It can be hard to BREATHE,
let alone throw a ball. But I have also tried to throw a ball with bruised ribs.
Frankly, I don't know how Kyle did it at all. But I do understand why he
SUDDENLY was playing poorly after 860 yards, 8 TDs and 1 INT, and a 105 QBR
in the previous three games. Having been there, I do understand that.

-----

reports from journalists in the lockerroom quoteing from studds saying orton played shitty and the ribs were not an excuse..is unsubstantiated

but your recollection of studds saying orton had severely injured ribbs...without a link or anything else is ..positive proof ?:lol:

quotes from orton him self saying he was able to play...could throw the ball 70 yards...before the oak game...is unsustantiated

but quotes from elway who never joined the staf until several weeks after the season ended, saying kyle had rib injuries...is?:lol:

top all the proof states he didnt injure his ribs until the AZ game...not weeks before...so you need to update your excuse theory

[arapaho2]

Why are you trolling me? I just got through saying that not ALL anti-Orton
posters are on my Ignore, and now you just called me a LIAR. You used to be
a good poster, Rap. I don't know what happened to you, but you have been
little more than a troll lately.

Now, after YOU end up on my Ignore, you can take posts such as this and show
them as evidence that you out-debated me on Orton . . . even though you
never so much as mentioned him, except to call me a liar.


P.S. If you think all I have to talk to is RC, take a look at my 86 friends in my
profile. Oh, that's right . . . I don't think you can see it. Only my friends (and
mods, of course) have access to it . . .

-----

trolling you?...im debating your theory...isnt that what a message board is? anybody who doesnt feel the same way you do is a troll?..mighty alastor of you top

my bad i misread..i thought it said you put all anti orton posters on iggy including me

:beer:

[Ravage!!!]

Ravage, I heard what was said, as it was said. I read what was written, as iit
was written. I am THE one to come up with ANY reason for Kyle's SUDDEN
play in the last two games. Period. Everyone else's reasoning is, "Duh, he suks."

Now, after presenting your empty assumptions as "fact," your implications
about what I wrote appear silly at best.

So your only option is to represent my findings as "excuses." You're at a loss,
aren't you?

-----

Top,

You are getting over sensitive which is showing that the facts presented to you are getting to you. They are gnawing at your brain as you try to wiggle a way out of the continued battery of proof and facts that keep hitting you over the head, time and time and time again. I wasn't attacking you in the last post other than to point out that what you consider to be "Reasons"...others see as nothing more than "excuses." I'm sorry that you can't see that different perspectives can see the same event and see two different results. Believe it or not, your observations and beliefs are not considered facts.

You read the words as they were written and took from them what you wanted to read. You heard the words as they were spoken, and took from them what you wanted to hear. Nothing different than anyone else, despite you feeling that you are foolproof. You went looking for what you call "causes and reason".. and everyone else just sees more "excuses" that are given, because prior facts don't really hold up to the "causes" that you brought forth. You want to believe they do, but again, that doesn't make them facts to anyone but YOU.

See. You continue to say that the facts given to you by others are nothing more than assumptions and implications. You want everyone to take your observations as fact, as though our observations have a single ounce of clout behind them. This is a repeat of the Plummer discussions.

The truth of the matter is, you have invested too much of yourself in this argument to do anything else other than fight-your-fight, despite the consensus. Since there is never 'fact' to an opinion, you will never be proven wrong. Something I know you enjoy.

[topscribe]

WHY AM I THE TOPIC HERE?? Those on Ignore have chosen to make ME the
topic. Those others who oppose Orton and stick to the ISSUE are NOT on my
Ignore. Simple as that.

STOP MAKING ME THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD!!

Damn, is there any way possible to make it clearer than that? Wow.

-----

[arapaho2]

WHY AM I THE TOPIC HERE?? Those on Ignore have chosen to make ME the
topic. Those others who oppose Orton and stick to the ISSUE are NOT on my
Ignore. Simple as that.

STOP MAKING ME THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD!!

Damn, is there any way possible to make it clearer than that? Wow.

-----


your not the topic.....your blown outta wack story of severely injured ribs is

[topscribe]

So, in conclusion, Orton is injury prone.


Not only all of that, but Tebow has a way of rallying players around him and getting people fired up. I think he makes people want to play better and play with/for him. Orton leaves the field, goes to the bench, and pouts (like Cutler). Leadership plays as big, or bigger, of a role in all of this as skill does.


My problems with Orton are that all the things good QBs should excel at are the things Orton does poorly. 3rd down conversions, the end of close games, and those times in a game when your leader needs to step up and rally the troops are all times when Orton completely falls apart IMHO.

He is not great at any one thing. He's smart but he almost always struggles against the blitz, and most the time it looks like he just fails to recognize it. He's accurate, kinda. He's accurate enough to have a good completion % but he's just off enough to lead wide open receivers to the ground more than any QB I've ever seen. He just doesn't do anything so well that he makes me think "man, if we build around that we'll be amazing".

I just think that since we are in our worst stretch in generations, and we are obviously rebuilding, it is a complete waste to do it with this guy under center. Isn't this the perfect time to see what Tebow has and if he isn't the answer we make a strong push for a guy in next years draft. Hell, if Elway loves Gabbert or Locker, fine. I would think it's stupid to give up on Tebow this quick but at least Gabbert or Locker would be trying, sticking with Orton just feels like a colossal waste of time.

Oh, and on a personal note: I absolutely can not stand watching Orton play. He is, in my opinion, the most unasthetically pleasing QB to ever play for the Broncos, from a style of play point of view.


Tebow can carry a team. Orton cannot.

Orton would be a nice QB to have if the Broncos were not a godawful team. He is perfect for a team that has a strong defense or offense. He is a pretty damn good game manager in that sense, but he is not going to go out there and flat out win you games. There is empirical evidence across the board that Orton is not the QB you want if your team is struggling.


In no way can I see Denver getting a 2nd for Orton. With Kolb and possibly Palmer on the market he is not the top QB to trade for. If we could I would be pumped..3rd and 5th is about right for his value.

Remember I said this who ever trades for Orton if he does get traded..he will not be that teams starter at the end of the season. One thing about Mcdouch he's pretty good with QBs he made Orton look 5x better than he really is.

Top I gotta send ya a pm: I changed my stance on draft.


Let's try to get all of these stories straight. Here is the article talking about Orton's rib injury, which happened during the Arizona game - a week after the KC game. Didn't appear very serious.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/The-Morning-After-Week-14/2de3b361-2965-4785-96ed-001424fdde54

This one also addresses the rib injury suffered in the 3rd quarter.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/Disappointment-in-the-Desert/ac638a23-01e1-4f5f-907c-0fee73d1f18b

Here is the link to the interview before the Oakland game (the week after his "serious rib injury") where Orton says he's not hurt "just sore" and was throwing 70 yards in practice.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5923215


I think it's safe to say that Orton was hurt, it wasn't that serious, and it was an excuse to see what Tebow had for the last 3 games. If Orton really was as hurt as the Broncos were reporting, he wouldn't have been so butt-hurt at being benched.

At the very least, his "serious rib injury" was for part of the 3rd and then the 4th quarter of the Arizona game only. There really isn't any injury excuse for the KC game or the first 3/4 of the AZ game...

Just the facts, ma'am. :yo:


Exactly the ribs weren't issue. In fact there were no excuses being made when Orton claimed he was throwing 70 yard bombs in practice.

Each of you is anti-Orton to a degree. Thanks to each of you for showing
how to discuss the topic. You are a pleasure to disagree with. :D

-----

[Ravage!!!]

again, just because people are responding to you, doesn't make you the topic. Really need to quit crying that foul.

[arapaho2]

again, just because people are responding to you, doesn't make you the topic. Really need to quit crying that foul.



:faint:it just hit me...maybe top thinks he is orton?

[Ravage!!!]

:faint:it just hit me...maybe top thinks he is orton?

:lol: well that would certainly explain a lot

[BroncoStud]

That deal would be GREAT. Let's hope it gets done.

[TXBRONC]

Each of you is anti-Orton to a degree. Thanks to each of you for showing
how to discuss the topic. You are a pleasure to disagree with. :D

-----

I'm not anti-Orton I just don't think he's the answer and there is enough information coming from guys like Elway and Fox to suggest that they don't either.

[topscribe]

I'm not anti-Orton I just don't think he's the answer and there is enough information coming from guys like Elway and Fox to suggest that they don't either.

It seems more immediate answers to them are defense and the running game.
I am pretty sure that takes priority over who starts at QB, at this specific time,
wouldn't you think? Not that QB is unimportant, but that it comes later?

-----

[TXBRONC]

It seems more immediate answers to them are defense and the running game.
I am pretty sure that takes priority over who starts at QB, at this specific time,
wouldn't you think? Not that QB is unimportant, but that it comes later?

-----

I agree that defense especially the defensive line is probably a more immediate concern.

[jhildebrand]

Each of you is anti-Orton to a degree. Thanks to each of you for showing
how to discuss the topic. You are a pleasure to disagree with. :D

-----

Top, once again your pathetic double standard is showing!

Afterall, this isn't about those guys! You really shouldn't make it about them. This should be about Orton. :coffee:

[tubby]

This thread sucks. Couldn't scroll fast enough.

[bcbronc]

This thread sucks. Couldn't scroll fast enough.

the discussion about rc's butt crack was my favourite part.

[rcsodak]

the discussion about rc's butt crack was my favourite part.

Well, it IS obvious there are a certain few that have a perverted attraction to it.

[broncobryce]

Orton is worth a number 2. In fact I have to take a number 2 right now......

[jhildebrand]

Well, it IS obvious there are a certain few that have a perverted attraction to it.

Says the person who brought up their very own butt crack and likened another poster to it :rolleyes:

Of all the posters on these forums, you provide the least!

[silkamilkamonico]

Can someone please explain to me why Kyle Orton is worth a 2nd round pick?

Those are reserved for young potential players with promise.

Kyle Orton is Jay Fiedler who can't win, and Jay Fiedler who can win is not worth a #2.

[Ravage!!!]

Can someone please explain to me why Kyle Orton is worth a 2nd round pick?

Those are reserved for young potential players with promise.

Kyle Orton is Jay Fiedler who can't win, and Jay Fiedler who can win is not worth a #2.

We both know I don't care for Kyle, and was pissed when we got him.

But the precedent has been set for years. QBs that are traded for, to take the starting role, generally (to the point of almost always) garner a 2nd round pick in exchange.

[silkamilkamonico]

We just need to just cut ties with Orton and get whatever. His doing major damage on this message board.

http://i.imgur.com/G4GaZ.gif

[gobroncsnv]

Sorry I don't think McNabb has all that much going for him, either. The guy throws more footballs to the feet of open receivers than seems reasonable, especially in a big game.

[BroncoStud]

Sorry I don't think McNabb has all that much going for him, either. The guy throws more footballs to the feet of open receivers than seems reasonable, especially in a big game.

I'd rather go with Tebow than McNabb... He was horrid last year.

[Juriga72]

I'd rather go with Tebow than McNabb... He was horrid last year.

Well... Using "Orton-logic" then.... McNabb would be worth a 2nd to get him...

[Dzone]

I am disgusted and ashamed that we have a douchebag like Orton as our quarterback.

[bcbronc]

I am disgusted and ashamed that we have a douchebag like Orton as our quarterback.

wow, strong sentiment. I can just imagine how you felt about having guys like Cutler, Marshall, or Travis Henry in the organization. or Perrish Cox.

[BroncoStud]

wow, strong sentiment. I can just imagine how you felt about having guys like Cutler, Marshall, or Travis Henry in the organization. or Perrish Cox.

Hey, Travis Henry is my dad!!

[rcsodak]

Can someone please explain to me why Kyle Orton is worth a 2nd round pick?

Those are reserved for young potential players with promise.

Kyle Orton is Jay Fiedler who can't win, and Jay Fiedler who can win is not worth a #2.
Still is relatively young. Is smart. Can pick up schemes quickly. Can make all the throws.has starting experience.
PKirwin/TRyan/RGannon/JMiller/Denver FO all seem to think so.

^^^>silk. ; )
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[Dzone]

wow, strong sentiment. I can just imagine how you felt about having guys like Cutler, Marshall, or Travis Henry in the organization. or Perrish Cox.
I was equally disgusted. I love the Broncos too much I guess. I want to see guys with class on the team, especially the quarterback.

There are very few players who are as despicable as Travis Henry. I cant stand Orton, but I would never put him in the class of travis henry

[Juriga72]

Still is relatively young. Is smart. Can pick up schemes quickly. Can make all the throws.has starting experience.
PKirwin/TRyan/RGannon/JMiller/Denver FO all seem to think so.

^^^>silk. ; )
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"Can make ALL the throws"?????

Unless on third down........ 4th quarter close games............ under ANY duress...... or even when the other team has more than 10 people on the field.

yup...he's worth a 2nd if you dont look at any of those factors.

[Cugel]

Especially if it's a 3rd this year and a 5th next year! Pull the trigger!

#1 -- There will be NO trades until the CBA is signed -- and that will be at LEAST August or September which means that no team can offer any draft picks for Orton in THIS year's draft.

#2 -- A 3nd round pick in the 2012 draft is equivalent to a 4th round pick in the 2011 draft. And a fifth rounder in the 2012 draft is equal to a 6th rounder this year!

So, this is an even worse deal than it appears on paper. And it's a total butt-reaming for the Broncos as is. But, a 3rd in 2012, and a 5th in 2013? And you'd be fine with that? Really?

Orton is worth more than a 4th & 6th round pick -- which is what this really is! :coffee:

[arapaho2]

Still is relatively young. Is smart. Can pick up schemes quickly. Can make all the throws.has starting experience.
PKirwin/TRyan/RGannon/JMiller/Denver FO all seem to think so.

^^^>silk. ; )
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unless that throw is while trailing late in the game, or in crunch time, or when having to carry the team...then he fails

has starting expirience...sure he does...i bet his record of 5-18 in his last 24 starts is really got those Gms salivating over the chance to land him:lol:

[Fan in Exile]

#1 -- There will be NO trades until the CBA is signed -- and that will be at LEAST August or September which means that no team can offer any draft picks for Orton in THIS year's draft.

#2 -- A 3nd round pick in the 2012 draft is equivalent to a 4th round pick in the 2011 draft. And a fifth rounder in the 2012 draft is equal to a 6th rounder this year!

So, this is an even worse deal than it appears on paper. And it's a total butt-reaming for the Broncos as is. But, a 3rd in 2012, and a 5th in 2013? And you'd be fine with that? Really?

Orton is worth more than a 4th & 6th round pick -- which is what this really is! :coffee:

Feel good about yourself Cugel? You arbitrarily decide that the CBA won't be signed until after the draft, when no one actually knows. It's quite possible that due to court rulings the NFL could be playing under 2010 rules weeks before the draft, even if there isn't a CBA.

Then you randomly rewrite the trade to being in two years the OP wasn't even talking about. But yeah except for those two major flaws in your post you sure showed him.

[rcsodak]

unless that throw is while trailing late in the game, or in crunch time, or when having to carry the team...then he fails

has starting expirience...sure he does...i bet his record of 5-18 in his last 24 starts is really got those Gms salivating over the chance to land him:lol:
As Rav says, 'I'll trust the people in the know' (noted previously).
If cug is right, it may not matter as KO could be the starter if/when the season starts.
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[rcsodak]

Feel good about yourself Cugel? You arbitrarily decide that the CBA won't be signed until after the draft, when no one actually knows. It's quite possible that due to court rulings the NFL could be playing under 2010 rules weeks before the draft, even if there isn't a CBA.

Then you randomly rewrite the trade to being in two years the OP wasn't even talking about. But yeah except for those two major flaws in your post you sure showed him.

The one point I was going to make was most future picks, when traded, are assumed to be mid-round (14-18). So not really sure how a team loses a round unless its 'perceptual'?
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