Time To Trade Moss & Crowder?

[Cugel]

This article from the Post made me think. Personally, I was thrilled when Denver selected 3 DE in the 2007 draft, Jarvis Moss in the 1st round, and Tim Crowder in the 3rd before grabbing Marcus Thomas in the 4th. I thought this would be the foundation of a dominating DL in the future.

But, it hasn't worked out. And here's an article point out why. Moss & Crowder simply don't fit Denver's current scheme:


As the Broncos were entering the 2007 draft, they were turning over the defense to new coordinator Jim Bates, who was about to employ his unique, seven-man box system. That draft correlated with Bates' system. Bates is gone. His system is gone. The draft picks remain.

For different reasons, Moss and second-round draft pick Tim Crowder, another defensive end, have not made the impact expected for players guaranteed to collect a combined $10.1 million. One reason why Moss has one career sack is the fractured right fibula he suffered near his ankle halfway through his rookie season. Nothing figures to hinder a speed rusher more than a serious lower leg injury.

"I try not to think about that anymore," he said. "The ankle is coming around. It's sore from time to time but other than that, it's pretty healthy. I don't like to use it as a crutch or think about it because it might hold me back mentally."

Part of the problem is that Moss is stuck behind Elvis Dumervil who has demonstrated he's the RDE for Denver's future. No room for Moss.

The other problems are also tough. Moss makes too much money to be a backup, and he's too light and not strong enough to play over at LDE. So, in Denver's current scheme there's simply NO PLACE for him.

He's going to play out his rookie contract and then be cut or traded, because even if Shanahan fired the Defensive Coordinator as many fans want, Shanahan is running exactly the style of defense he wants! He just doesn't have the type of players he needs to execute it.

Well, do you think Shanahan is going to change his coaching style? :coffee:

NO! He's obviously going to try and get players who can fit his scheme.

As for Tim Crowder, that's harder to explain. He seemed to have the physical tools, but LDE in Denver's scheme requires a guy who is primarily a run defender.

Shanahan decided that he wanted the defense to be strong against the run. That prevents teams from controlling the clock and keeping his high-powered offense with Jay Cutler off the field.

He figures that he can win a shootout, but he can't win a slow, grinding defensive struggle. So, if teams can pass up and down the field in huge chunks, at least they're not running the ball!

I don't understand this at all, but he's the coach who's won 2 SB and I'm not. :confused:

BUT this doesn't leave much room for Tim Crowder who's stuck behind both the inadequate Engleberger and behind the aging underachiever Ebeneezer Ekuban.

For whatever reasons, the coaches have obviously given up on both players. Together they might be worth a 3rd round draft pick to some team. Why wait? Perhaps somebody has some defensive talent they could trade.

It's time for the Broncos to cut loose the dead-wood. If the coaches don't think either player is good enough even to play at all on game day, what's the point of holding on?

Trade them now and let some other team develop their talent. In the right organization they might well succeed. Both were highly touted coming out of college only last year.

They might be BUSTS in Denver, but that doesn't mean there's no team that could use their talent. It's time to find out. Because SOMETHING has to be done to fix this defensive mess they're in! :coffee:

[jrelway]

i dont think we'd get much in return for those 2.

[Cugel]

i dont think we'd get much in return for those 2.

We might. Other teams know that both players were highly regarded coming out of college. Simply because they don't fit Denver's scheme now that Bates was fired, doesn't mean they couldn't help another team.

Suppose you offered both for a 3rd round pick next year? Some team that runs a scheme similar to Bates (which is quite a number of teams) might be interested. Perhaps it might be a 4th rounder, who knows?

But, if Moss & Crowder are going to be game-day inactive this season, and come off the bench only in limited situations even when they are active, what's the point?

The coaches have given up on both guys. They had all this off-season to get ready for the current scheme. And the verdict of the coaching staff and Mike Shanahan is that neither player is even good enough to be active and on the field at all!

How much worse would it be to get rid of them and get whatever you can get? They're obviously not any use sitting in the stands in street clothes while perfectly healthy!

Something has got to give. If Shanahan doesn't want to play them, they're never going to get any better. If they're never going to get any better they have no future in Denver.

If they have no future in Denver, then why keep them on the roster?

If you're not going to keep them on the roster, why wait until the season is lost due to crappy defense? Why not move them to get the most out of them?

If you can get a starting DL for them, good. If it's a draft pick, let's find out! Why pay them all that money to sit there and never be used? :coffee:

[broncofanatic1987]

They should just be cut. If they can find some takers in a trade, that's fine. But, in the end, neither has played like a NFL DE selected in the 1st and 2nd rounds. I would not be surprised to see either one or both released after the season is over or after next year's training camp. I think they are going to have to address the defensive line early and often in next year's draft.

[Bronco9798]

Other NFL teams don't want Moss playing DE with his small frame and size. He has no vlaue, except in college and he already graduated.

[Broncolingus]

They should just be cut. If they can find some takers in a trade, that's fine. But, in the end, neither has played like a NFL DE selected in the 1st and 2nd rounds. I would not be surprised to see either one or both released after the season is over or after next year's training camp. I think they are going to have to address the defensive line early and often in next year's draft.

I don't think we'd get anything in return unless it was a 'package' deal with someone who can actually play in the NFL, but who knows...

...what ISN'T up for debate is that neither one is any good in the NFL and neither one needs any more time wasted on them.

Movin on...

[omac]

I didn't vote for any, because I think Crowder still has a chance to be good. Coming out of college, one of his strengths was that he was good against the run. He's also looks a bit more massive than Moss.

I'm all for trading Moss before the season ends, but I'd keep Crowder. I think Crowder's been a gametime active more times than Moss has. He might just be a bit slow learning the system, specially since Slowik's system sounds a bit complex.

[DenBronx]

if these two cant beat out engleberger and ekuban then they should be traded. moss has been inactive for 3 games now! thats crazy to me. our #1 pick who we traded up to get cant even get on the field!

trade his ass!

[Bronco9798]

Trade deadline is just two weeks away. Not likely.

[Northman]

Sure, we can trade them. Maybe get a bag of popcorn or peanuts for them.

[omac]

Trade deadline is just two weeks away. Not likely.

Oh well, might as wait and see if he turns out to be good then. :coffee:

[Skinny]

I would rather trade Slo.

I just thinks it odd that when Bates was coaching in Denver, Moss and Crowder showed alot of promise. And they both were on the feild getting playing time and experiance. Of course Moss was showing his speed and ability to get into the backfeild before the injury.

Now under Slo, they can't even see the feild?? All of a sudden, their playing time is dwindling to near non-existance??

Eh, i'm just not 100% sold that it's their inability to play the game. Maybe it is, but right now with CBs and S playing 10 to 15 yards off the WRs in zone coverages and giving opposing QBs windows big enough to drive a mack truck through to throw the ball, it's hard for me to tell which is exactly the problem.... the players or the marshmallow scheme that we're running. I find it hard to beleive that Moss and Crowder are getting 'outplayed' by anybody else on this defense. I just don't see it when everyone else is on the feild.

Maybe it is the scheme and they just don't fit what Slo is looking to do. But from the look of the defense this year, nobody seems to fit what scheme Slo is trying to piece together.

[MOtorboat]

if these two cant beat out engleberger and ekuban then they should be traded. moss has been inactive for 3 games now! thats crazy to me. our #1 pick who we traded up to get cant even get on the field!

trade his ass!

Um...if he can't get on the field over backup defensive ends in Denver, what exactly makes you think he'll get on the field with any other team, and subsequently because of that, who do you think is willing to offer up anything in return?

P.S. They aren't going anywhere this year, unless they are cut...

[Dortoh]

their trade value is crap ride them out maybe one of them steps up.....

[Dortoh]

engleberger gets no love :tsk:

you think our run d sucks now dump John if you want to see really ugly:coffee:

[slim]

It is hard to trade something that has no value.

Although I do remember hearing about a guy that traded a large, novelty paperclip for a house. First he traded it for an antique doornob, then he traded that for something else, and so on and so forth until he acquired a house.

Now, if only Moss had as much value as a paperclip...

[dogfish]

justin tuck had a grand total of ONE sack in his first two years in the league (twenty games). . . his third year, he had ten sacks, developed into one of the most disruptive DLs in the league, and was possibly the most important player in the G-men's stunning super bowl upset. . . am i saying that moss or crowder is going to do that? no. . .


what i'm saying is that it takes time to develop DLs in this league. . . you guys don't think giants fans were calling tuck a bust? i bet you're wrong, because that's what fans do. . . i'm as disappointed as anyone else that these guys haven't made an impact, but i think it's stupid to not play them-- what have we got to lose?? the alleged defense sucks balls with the guys we're playing now, why not give the young guys a chance to learn and improve? if we're not going to make a genuine effort to develop DLs, we may as well not bother drafting any more. . . if they aren't impact players right out of the gate-- and few DLs are-- the natives will just get restless and start calling for the team to cut them, and shenanigans will bury them on the bench while he plays his precious no-talent castoffs. . .

[turftoad]

justin tuck had a grand total of ONE sack in his first two years in the league (twenty games). . . his third year, he had ten sacks, developed into one of the most disruptive DLs in the league, and was possibly the most important player in the G-men's stunning super bowl upset. . . am i saying that moss or crowder is going to do that? no. . .


what i'm saying is that it takes time to develop DLs in this league. . . you guys don't think giants fans were calling tuck a bust? i bet you're wrong, because that's what fans do. . . i'm as disappointed as anyone else that these guys haven't made an impact, but i think it's stupid to not play them-- what have we got to lose?? the alleged defense sucks balls with the guys we're playing now, why not give the young guys a chance to learn and improve? if we're not going to make a genuine effort to develop DLs, we may as well not bother drafting any more. . . if they aren't impact players right out of the gate-- and few DLs are-- the natives will just get restless and start calling for the team to cut them, and shenanigans will bury them on the bench while he plays his precious no-talent castoffs. . .

No Dog, I don't thing they were calling Tuck a bust.

Look, beating out the likes of Strahan and Osi is a lot tougher than beating out the likes of Ekuban and Engleberger.

[broncofanatic1987]

I would rather trade Slo.

I just thinks it odd that when Bates was coaching in Denver, Moss and Crowder showed alot of promise. And they both were on the feild getting playing time and experiance. Of course Moss was showing his speed and ability to get into the backfeild before the injury.

Now under Slo, they can't even see the feild?? All of a sudden, their playing time is dwindling to near non-existance??

Eh, i'm just not 100% sold that it's their inability to play the game. Maybe it is, but right now with CBs and S playing 10 to 15 yards off the WRs in zone coverages and giving opposing QBs windows big enough to drive a mack truck through to throw the ball, it's hard for me to tell which is exactly the problem.... the players or the marshmallow scheme that we're running. I find it hard to beleive that Moss and Crowder are getting 'outplayed' by anybody else on this defense. I just don't see it when everyone else is on the feild.

Maybe it is the scheme and they just don't fit what Slo is looking to do. But from the look of the defense this year, nobody seems to fit what scheme Slo is trying to piece together.

This also speaks volumes about Shanahan. He's the one that constantly scapegoats the defensive boss. Instead of keeping Bates and improving the talent to fit a scheme that produced top ten defenses in two different cities, he gets rid of him and promotes a guy that has failed everywhere he's been, with maybe some moderate success in Chicago under a defensive minded head coach.

Maybe Moss and Crowder could succeed somewhere else but Crowder should be able to start and Moss should at least be able to be a good pass rush specialist in the current scheme. The fact that neither seem to be close to achieving that much is an indication that they are not NFL material.

Clearly Shanahan made a mistake when he fired Coyer. It is obvious that the right course of action would have been to draft better talent on defense and keep Coyer as the DC.

I have said this before and I will say it again. If the Broncos don't make the playoffs and the defense is not in the top 15 at the end of the season, Shanahan should be fired.

[topscribe]

I didn't vote for any, because I think Crowder still has a chance to be good. Coming out of college, one of his strengths was that he was good against the run. He's also looks a bit more massive than Moss.

I'm all for trading Moss before the season ends, but I'd keep Crowder. I think Crowder's been a gametime active more times than Moss has. He might just be a bit slow learning the system, specially since Slowik's system sounds a bit complex.

Same here. I have big questions about Moss, but I can't lump Crowder in with
him. I can just see us jettisoning Crowder and ending up with another
Berry/Haywood situation. It seemed Crowder showed a lot last year, and I
don't know the specific situation this year. Maybe there's more to it than
meets the eye?

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[G_Money]

Defensive line is a notoriously hard set of positions to translate to the NFL.

Both Moss and Crowder have been injured (Moss with the broken lower leg, Crowder with the high-ankle sprain) in ways that make it hard for them to get the necessary push that their positions require.

But we STILL can't tell if their failures are their own, or the fault of the scheme. Our defensive line scheme seems to be "You will always be outnumbered by blockers, but what I want you to do is engage them and drive them straight back at the QB. Do not try to go around them, and we will not stunt to help you confuse them. Engage and defeat, or do nothing." And so we're doing nothing.

That's not Moss's bag, and it's barely Crowder's.

I have disliked Moss from the start, but even I'll acknowledge that in no way has he been set up to succeed by making best use of whatever advantages he might have. We only deal with our DL on the basis of their disadvantages.

We won't get anything for Moss in a trade - we're gonna have to cut him, and send him to a 3-4 defense to try to rehab his career as a pass-rushing LB or something. Crowder still has a chance to turn into a Kenny Peterson/Ebenezer Ekuban type - I don't see a lot more than that in his future, but I'm willing to be pleasantly surprised.

I REALLY wish Powell wasn't out for the year - I wanted to see what he could bring to the table as far as run stuffing goes. Regardless, we still need a pass rush.

If we'd blitz more (and CORRECTLY) maybe the DL could get free and get to the QB. Stunts would help.

But if we're just gonna line up 4 and beat the other guys to the QB then we'd better figure out how Tampa and the G-Men do it. Here's a hint: it's talent AND scheme. Unless we're adding Reggie White sometime soon we're not gonna have enough talent to do it with the ridiculous schemes of the last 2 years.

Dumping Crowder and Moss makes us feel better, but it doesn't solve the problem. We won't get back draftpicks for them, so just hang onto them til we get someone better and in the meantime, see if we can add pressure without a huge shift in talent.

And since I'm having trouble thinking of a good DL we've drafted since Pryce over a decade ago (There was Heyward...I guess you could count Reagor in a rotational sense...then crickets til you get to Dumerville...) we MIGHT need to make do with players closer to the talent of those we have rather than hoping for the top-flight DL we haven't found in a dozen years.

So can we please address the scheme/schemer problems before flushing 2nd year DL with limited experience? Yes, they look like idiots now, but the whole defense looks like idiots.

And we can't really cut all of em...

~G

[Retired_Member_001]

I don't know why people are all of a sudden so down on Crowder. I thought we were all raving about him by the end of last season? :confused:

In fact, I clearly remember being bashed for doubting him.

[nevcraw]

Same here. I have big questions about Moss, but I can't lump Crowder in with
him. I can just see us jettisoning Crowder and ending up with another
Berry/Haywood situation. It seemed Crowder showed a lot last year, and I
don't know the specific situation this year. Maybe there's more to it than
meets the eye?

-----

In fairness they were coming off one good year a piece and were able to get significant $$$ by other clubs. Not the same thing to dumping draft pciks who don't pan out.
Hayword has not beem dominant in Jacksonville and has benifitted form studs across the line to take the heat off of him. Berry has been solid after being a journeyman before getting to Denver, but (if memory serves) AZ paid him top DE money which would have been silly for Denver to do same given the risk as well as the other wholes to fill at almost every postion on the team.
Now Pryce is another matter. I have long since thought he was overrated but I may be changing my tune a bit. He commanded Double teams and made those around him better. Overrated or not I would take that for what he got in Baltimore.
I am still holding out hope that Crowder will turn into a solid player ala Berry. Maybe it will take him a while for the light bulb to go off as well.. Here't to hoping it happens here and not elsewhere..

[topscribe]

I don't know why people are all of a sudden so down on Crowder. I thought we were all raving about him by the end of last season? :confused:

In fact, I clearly remember being bashed for doubting him.

It's called "bandwagon."

-----

[Retired_Member_001]

It's called "bandwagon."

-----

:lol:

I haven't given up on Crowder yet. If anything, his performances towards the end of last year have convinced me that he is fairly good.

A guy gets an injury and then everybody wants to dump him.

[Buff]

I doubt we could get that lucky to unload either of these guys... I'd love to see us trade them. Clearly neither of them are the players we thought they were.

[Shananahan]

Only Skinny has the right idea. These guys are talented and it takes time for defensive lineman to develop in this league. Slowik hasn't shown anything worth retaining, yet both Moss and Crowder have. Patience, people.

[spikerman]

I would talk to the Cowboys, Patriots, and Dolphins about Moss. It seems like he could play OLB in the 3-4. Denver could trade him to one of those teams for a real run stuffer or for a pick which could be included in a package to another team for some defensive help.

[Retired_Member_001]

Only Skinny has the right idea. These guys are talented and it takes time for defensive lineman to develop in this league. Slowik hasn't shown anything worth retaining, yet both Moss and Crowder have. Patience, people.

Great post.

I mean, I'm dissapointed with Moss, but he had a friggin' Broken Leg. Anyone here broken their leg? I haven't, so I'm not going to pretend that I know the difficulties it takes to come back from it.

[LoyalSoldier]

No Dog, I don't thing they were calling Tuck a bust.

I assume you meant think.

See that word "think" means you don't have a clue on what they said you are only going off your opinion which has as much weight as a ballon. I know fans to well to say that I would be there was a good portion of the fan base that was calling him a bust.

[topscribe]

I assume you meant think.

See that word "think" means you don't have a clue. I know fans to well to say that I would be there was a good portion of the fan base that was calling him a bust.

I assume you mean "too."

I think he said "think" because he does has a clue, but he is just giving his
impression, but doesn't want to state it as fact. http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thwink.gif

-----

[Retired_Member_001]

I assume you mean "too."

I think he said "think" because he does has a clue, but he is just giving his
impression, but doesn't want to state it as fact. http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thwink.gif

-----

I think you mean have.

:coffee:

:lol::lol:

[topscribe]

I think you mean have.

:coffee:

:lol::lol:

No, "he" is singular, which would require the singular verb form "has." http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thwink.gif

-----

[LoyalSoldier]

I think you mean have.

:coffee:

:lol::lol:


I think you mean.....well shoot....

I wasn't trying to be a spelling nazi it is just that point I was trying to make happened to revolve around a word that wasn't there. ;)

[LoyalSoldier]

No, "he" is singular, which would require the singular verb form "has." http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thwink.gif

-----



However you used in conjunction with does which changes the verb to have. ;)

"think" because he does has a clue

[Retired_Member_001]

No, "he" is singular, which would require the singular verb form "has." http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thwink.gif

-----

You said:

" He does has a clue"

It should be:

" He does have a clue"

No?

:confused:

Maybe I'm confused.

[topscribe]

I think you mean.....well shoot....

I wasn't trying to be a spelling nazi it is just that point I was trying to make happy to revolve around a word that wasn't there. ;)

And I was only joshing you a little . . . :D



Guess we all ought to get :focus:



-----

[topscribe]

You said:

" He does has a clue"

It should be:

" He does have a clue"

No?

:confused:

Maybe I'm confused.

You're right. I missed my own "does." :lol:

*where are those Alzhemer's pills?*

-----

[LoyalSoldier]

At any rate. I think it is stupid to call Crowder a bust when he put up 4 sacks in his rookie season. If anything else he should have a chance to do something.

Bust is the most overused word in the NFL.

[Retired_Member_001]

At any rate. I think it is stupid to call Crowder a bust when he put up 4 sacks in his rookie season. If anything else he should have a chance to do something.

Bust is the most overused word in the NFL.

You are wrong.

The most overused word in the NFL is Favre.

[LoyalSoldier]

You are wrong.

The most overused word in the NFL is Favre.

Yea your right....ok Bust is the fourth most over used word in the NFL (after Brady and Manning)

[Simple Jaded]

Maybe they should have stuck with Bates and his system and brought in DT's that actually fit his system instead of whiping their ass with him and his proven/sound system? Shit no! That makes far too much sense!

Shaun Rogers, Kris Jenkins and Marcus Stroud were given away for basically the same thing they gave up for Marcus Thomas, but here's the kicker......they're proven players that actually FIT Bates' system......go figure. What a novel idea?

As for the question, a team with a pass rush this pathetic simply cannot give up on DE's this soon, but, this is Mike Shanahan we are talking about, nobody cuts loose of mistakes as quickly as he does (He gets a LOT of practice).

Btw, a "seven-man box" is not a "unique system"......

[Simple Jaded]

Btw, Elvis Dumervil has as many Sacks and Tackles as Jarvis Moss, when does Denver consider trading him?

Denver has no choice, they need to stick with and develop the players that they have chosen......

[dogfish]

No Dog, I don't thing they were calling Tuck a bust.

Look, beating out the likes of Strahan and Osi is a lot tougher than beating out the likes of Ekuban and Engleberger.

sorry toad, but a lot of them were-- i know it, because at the end of '07 i was lurking on a few of their boards quite a bit. . . remember when we were trying to trade al wilson to them? one of the proposed deals was wilson for tuck, and their fans were vehemently in support of it, saying that tuck was a bust (not because he hadn't beaten out their two pro bowl starters, but because he hadn't brought any value as a situational pass rusher, like, say, elvis dumervil and his 8.5 sacks as a rookie) and they should get some value for him while they could. . .


in this culture of inflated expectations and instant gratification, anybody who doesn't produce right off the bat is liable to be called a bust, circumstances be damned. . . hell, a lot of idiots were calling mario williams a bust after a rookie year where he played through injuries, recorded 4.5 sacks and was tough against the run all year. . .

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I still like Crowder, but agree there is minimal trade value for either. Best case scenario, we get a 5th rounder from a 3-4 team who wants to give Moss a look-see.

[WARHORSE]

Moss is a DE in his second year.

Hes not a bust yet. Neither man is.

[BeefStew25]

Moss is a DE in his second year.

Hes not a bust yet. Neither man is.

Neither are you, War. You never will be. I :salute: and honor you.

[NameUsedBefore]

I said no simply because we wouldn't even get anything for either of them at this point. Might as well see if they can pan out.

[Cugel]

We need to get this thread back on track! Some points!

1. I would NOT give up on Moss & Crowder, but then I would be playing them more to see what they could do.

Shanahan and Slowik are making them inactive. Today the Broncos got 3 sacks and got some pressure -- but it came from Ekuban and Dumervil, and blitzes -- Crowder and Moss weren't even on the field.

It is even more likely now that Moss will sit out the season and Crowder as well.

So, it's the coaches and Shanahan who've given up on Moss and Crowder. There's no point in arguing that "we should give Moss time to develop." The coaches aren't "developing" him. If they're not playing at all, even as backups, then they aren't developing!

Now do you think that something is suddenly going to change during the off-season?

Remember the point from the Post article? "they're not playing like players who are getting $10.1 million a season."

They are paying Moss and Crowder (combined) STARTING DL money, pro-bowl DE money. NO WAY they will continue to pay that much money to these guys if they're not going to use them at all.


So, they're going to be cut or traded, because Shanahan certainly isn't going to want to keep them around paying them $10 million a year to wear street clothes on Sundays!

My only point is that if they ARE going to be cut/traded, then we should get something for them.

2. Second point. It's WAY too early to conclude that we wouldn't get anything for Moss & Crowder. Moss was a #17 pick of the draft and would have gone in the 1st round even if Denver didn't want him. He had value last year. He's been a disappointment, but there's always room for healthy players who were highly regarded in college, have no off-field character issues or personality conflicts with coaches, and have shown flashes of talent, but haven't worked out for one reason or another.

Moss is still young and could be good in the right system with the right coaches. Some team would probably want to take a look at him and give him a chance to come in and compete for a starting job. Teams are ALWAYS desperate for pass-rushing talent, and he had it in college.

Maybe he's a bust as a pro. That can always happen. But, it's too early to conclude that for sure.

Thus, both those guys together or apart have SOME trade value. They should be shopped for a 3rd round pick. They might have to take a 4th rounder or even a 5th rounder if they have to. But, they have some value.

What if Moss goes to another team, gets a chance and suddenly starts showing signs of talent? It happened with Bert Berry who did nothing with his rookie team, came to the Broncos and became a successful pass-rusher, then translated that success into a big contract with the Arizona Cardinals.

3. Now that Denver's defense stepped up today (admittedly Brian Griese isn't exactly Drew Brees out there and the Bucs offense is almost as bad as Kansas City). But, the Chiefs moved the ball all day on the Broncos, so this is HUGE improvement.

Notice that Kenny Peterson played well. Marcus Thomas played well (although the fumble wasn't great). Ekuban and Dumervil got some pressure. The blitz package worked on occasion.

Now all this happened with Moss & Crowder INACTIVE! This makes them even more expendable.

[broncobryce]

Well, Ekuban and Dumerville are hurt, so they might be activated against JAX

[omac]

I guess the problem with trading Moss, which has already been mentioned, is his salary. Teams won't want to pay him that much as a project. He'll either have to restructure his contract for him to stay with the Broncos, or for him to have value in a trade to another team for that matter, ... or he'll be cut outright.

Moss will probably choose to get cut over restructuring his contract, and he'll try his luck as an FA.

[silkamilkamonico]

Boot them to the curb, along with the garbage Dline coach, whomever that is.

I'm not sold on Dumervil either.

1 good game every 5?

No thanks. Next?

[Dortoh]

Boot them to the curb, along with the garbage Dline coach, whomever that is.

I'm not sold on Dumervil either.

1 good game every 5?

No thanks. Next?

dude that is harsh. Dum was playing with a bad mitt. Today is the first time he as been able to use said mitt........and he looked much better

Our Dline is crap though you got that right

[silkamilkamonico]

dude that is harsh. Dum was playing with a bad mitt. Today is the first time he as been able to use said mitt........and he looked much better

Our Dline is crap though you got that right

I'm not a Dumervil fan at all.

He's part of the reason why Denver is so terrible against the run, and teams are figuring out how to block him, considering all he does is go wide. He did have a few good rushes today though.

Very good situational pass rusher. Just not someone I feel comfortable with out on the field for a good portion of the game.

And I most certainly do not want to pay a guy like that a big contract.

[Dortoh]

I'm not a Dumervil fan at all.

He's part of the reason why Denver is so terrible against the run, and teams are figuring out how to block him, considering all he does is go wide. He did have a few good rushes today though.

Very good situational pass rusher. Just not someone I feel comfortable with out on the field for a good portion of the game.

And I most certainly do not want to pay a guy like that a big contract.

I think it says more about our shit dline the fact he is playing the role of every down dline. Guy has crazy talent for a pass rusher. The problem is he is a situational player who we really need. What sucks is he is undersized and being thrown into the every down de position is wasting what he has in the tank. IMHO you keep him on board but only as a situational pass rushing de and find a real de to play 1st and 2nd down.

crowder :tsk:still hopefull

[G_Money]

Remember the point from the Post article? "they're not playing like players who are getting $10.1 million a season."

They are paying Moss and Crowder (combined) STARTING DL money, pro-bowl DE money. NO WAY they will continue to pay that much money to these guys if they're not going to use them at all.


So, they're going to be cut or traded, because Shanahan certainly isn't going to want to keep them around paying them $10 million a year to wear street clothes on Sundays!

Okay, seriously, Moss and Crowder aren't making 10 million a year. Separately, combined, or in any other way.


Jarvis Moss, 7/28/2007: Signed a five-year, $15 million contract. The deal includes $8 million in guarantees. Another $3 million is available through incentives. 2008: $370,000, 2009: $660,000, 2010: $750,000, 2011: $850,000, 2012: Free Agent

So we've already given him $8 million for just being a #1 draftpick. That hurts, but it's already done and on the books. He's not likely to make the $3 million in extra incentives because he's not going to any Pro Bowls or getting any sacks. And his yearly salary never reaches a million bucks. We have already spent money on him, but as it goes right now on a yearly basis he's making pocket change.


Tim Crowder, 7/27/2007: Signed a four-year, $3 million contract. The deal included a $1.31 million signing bonus. 2008: $370,000, 2009: $460,000, 2010: $550,000, 2011: Free Agent

Once again, already got his guaranteed money, and now is making the minimum, with even his best year in 2010 being barely over half a mil.

I don't have any problem replacing them with better players - players that see the field occasionally and can actually contribute would obviously be nice - but let's not pretend they're breaking the bank for us on a yearly basis.

It's always healthy to approach a problem with all the facts. :beer:

If people want to wait another year to see if Crowder and Moss can make it through training camp in '09 as improved players, it's not destroying our pocket book. Whatever damage they were gonna do with their guaranteed money is already done (excepting salary cap hit for cutting Moss, depending on how we pro-rated his bonuses, obviously).

~G

[weazel]

they arent getting traded. Noone wants undersized Defensive linemen that can't even start on the worst DL in the league. LMAO

[Dortoh]

they arent getting traded. Noone wants undersized Defensive linemen that can't even start on the worst DL in the league. LMAO

prolly but remember Dan Snyder is still on the job :laugh:

[broncofaninfla]

If you are a first and second round pick and have spent more timebeing inactive than playing when you are healthy, you are a bust. High draft picks are supposed to just make the team, they are supposed to be impact players. These guys are struggling to even make them team at this point.

[LoyalSoldier]

If you are a first and second round pick and have spent more timebeing inactive than playing when you are healthy, you are a bust. High draft picks are supposed to just make the team, they are supposed to be impact players. These guys are struggling to even make them team at this point.

So I guess Rivers was a bust since he didn't start till how many years later?

[dogfish]

So I guess Rivers was a bust since he didn't start till how many years later?

ryan harris is a bust too-- he never got near the field his entire first season, other than a few special teams snaps. . . .

[broncofaninfla]

There is no comparison. The Bolts had Breeze and he was more than getting the job done. We NEED Moss and he can't step up.

[TXBRONC]

ryan harris is a bust too-- he never got near the field his entire first season, other than a few special teams snaps. . . .

I thought some people were calling Harris a bust.

[turftoad]

I thought some people were calling Harris a bust.

Harris was a third rounder with a bad back. We pretty much knew he wasn't going to play as a rook.

He wasn't inactive cuz he sucked.

[LoyalSoldier]

There is no comparison. The Bolts had Breeze and he was more than getting the job done. We NEED Moss and he can't step up.

Sorry there is a comparison. It doesn't matter who is playing, if the benched player isn't ready to play NFL style football then it doesn't matter if John Elway is in front of him or Ryan Leaf. The point being that people are way too quick to jump on players who's position historically has shown they almost never pan out in 2 years or less. Defensive line and Quarterbacks are some of the slowest developing positions around. Rarely does a rookie come in at either spot and produce right away.

We haven't had these two for any length of time to suggest they are incapable of every becoming decent players.

[turftoad]

There is no comparison. The Bolts had Breeze and he was more than getting the job done. We NEED Moss and he can't step up.

That is exactly right.

We NEED him. That is exactly why we moved up in the first round to get him. We needed an impact guy to come in and rush the passer.

He can't even beat out less than avarage DE's Ekuban and Engleberger.

How many other young DE's in the league would like to have it that easy.

Like you said, we need Moss and he CAN'T step up. :tsk:

[turftoad]

Sorry there is a comparison. It doesn't matter who is playing, if the benched player isn't ready to play NFL style football then it doesn't matter if John Elway is in front of him or Ryan Leaf. The point being that people are way too quick to jump on players who's position historically has shown they almost never pan out in 2 years or less. Defensive line and Quarterbacks are some of the slowest developing positions around. Rarely does a rookie come in at either spot and produce right away.

We haven't had these two for any length of time to suggest they are incapable of every becoming decent players.

But....... they should be CAPABLE of making it on the ACTIVE roster. Shouldn't they?

I mean, it's not like we have studs ahead of them.

[LoyalSoldier]

Here are some of the top sackers from last year. First number is how long to took them to get above 5 sacks and second is how long it took them to get to double digit


Jared Allen: 1st year (2nd)

http://www.nfl.com/players/jaredallen/profile?id=ALL454745

Patrick Kerny: 3rd year(3rd)

http://www.nfl.com/players/patrickkerney/profile?id=KER459393

Mario Williams: 2nd year (2nd)

http://www.nfl.com/players/mariowilliams/profile?id=WIL431243

Osi Umenyiora: 2nd year (3rd)

http://www.nfl.com/players/osiumenyiora/profile?id=UME444955

Elvis Dumervil: 1st year(2nd)

http://www.nfl.com/players/elvisdumervil/profile?id=DUM179959

Aaron Kampman: 4th year(5th)

http://www.nfl.com/players/aaronkampman/profile?id=KAM725424

Kyle Vanden Bosch: 5th year(5th)

http://www.nfl.com/players/kylevandenbosch/profile?id=VAN378810

Jason Taylor: 1st year(4th)

http://www.nfl.com/players/jasontaylor/profile?id=TAY338550

John Abraham: 2nd year(2nd)

http://www.nfl.com/players/johnabraham/profile?id=ABR073003

Justin Tuck: 3rd year(3rd)

http://www.nfl.com/players/justintuck/profile?id=TUC056287



If you take the average it is 2 years for just having a single season over 5 sacks where it is 3 years average for double digits.

[TXBRONC]

Harris was a third rounder with a bad back. We pretty much knew he wasn't going to play as a rook.

He wasn't inactive cuz he sucked.

The point is the people were calling him a bust before he even really had a chance to do anything.

[LoyalSoldier]

But....... they should be CAPABLE of making it on the ACTIVE roster. Shouldn't they?

I mean, it's not like we have studs ahead of them.

However we do have veterans in front of them and experience generally wins out on Shanahan's mind.

[turftoad]

The point is the people were calling him a bust before he even really had a chance to do anything.

The point is, Moss has.

[Dortoh]

I love the idea of moving him to LB. He is built for the position and does have alot of talent. I wonder if breaking his leg took away some of this speed. Either way we need a 1st round pick that we had to move up to get to produce somewhere.

[dogfish]

I thought some people were calling Harris a bust.

okay, ya got me there. . . . :fear:


although technically i never called harris a bust-- just stated that i thought he was headed in that direction. . . .




how ya been TX?

[Buff]

Sorry there is a comparison. It doesn't matter who is playing, if the benched player isn't ready to play NFL style football then it doesn't matter if John Elway is in front of him or Ryan Leaf. The point being that people are way too quick to jump on players who's position historically has shown they almost never pan out in 2 years or less. Defensive line and Quarterbacks are some of the slowest developing positions around. Rarely does a rookie come in at either spot and produce right away.

We haven't had these two for any length of time to suggest they are incapable of every becoming decent players.

If you listened to Slowik's interview last week, he sure sounded like he was disappointed in their development.

I see your argument, and I hope you are right. But normally you'd like to see some indication that the players have potential at this point in their careers. Outside of Crowder's fumble recovery and return for a TD last year, we haven't seen anything at all out of these 2. I'm not saying they ought to be elite players-- but have we seen anything on the practice field, preseason or weight room (let alone in a game) that would indicate they have the type of potential we'd like them to have?

[TXBRONC]

okay, ya got me there. . . . :fear:


although technically i never called harris a bust-- just stated that i thought he was headed in that direction. . . .




how ya been TX?

I know you didn't. My post was a general observation nothing more.

I've been fine. Thanks for asking. :beer:

[dogfish]

http://www.carolinagrowl.com/Read.aspx?Story=781


that's a story on the recent contributions of carolina DE charles johnson-- i posted it because johnson is somewhat comparable to moss. . . he was also drafted in 2007, and was once projected as a first rounder before dropping to the third because of concerns about his speed and experience level. . . like jarvis, he also entered the NFL with only thirteen college starts for a major program, all as a senior-- unlike jarvis, he was healthy the previous two years and able to practice and appear in every game. . .

despite playing for a team that was desperate for pass rush help, johnson played in only three games last year, recording a grand total of two tackles. . . he's played in all five games so far this year, but didn't record his first pro sack until this weekend. . . nonetheless, he's gotten high praise from the coaching staff for his effort and pressure, and they feel like they've found a legit player (that's from some things i've read in PFW, as well as the article linked above). . . this is a guy that was ahead of jarvis in terms of practice reps, live game action and time in the weight room, and after being a non-factor for all of last year and the beginning of this year, it sounds like the light has come on for him. . .

i understand everyone's frustration with moss, but personally i don't see how he's supposed to improve if the coaching staff won't let him get on the field and at least get some reps. . . maybe he really is a lost cause, i'm not denying the possibility-- but history shows us that guys develop at different paces, and IMO moss simply hasn't had enough of a chance to develop that we can call him a bust yet. . . the guy had thirteen college starts and has logged a mere handful of snaps at the pro level. . . no matter how much it pisses people off, it may be that this year is going to have to essentially be his rookie year, because he lost most of the actual one. . . he may have to spend this season working in the weight room, practicing, and working with the coaches to refine his technique and learn how to play at this level, before he can make any serious contribution on the field. . . right now he's far, FAR behind most other players of his draft class, and he may simply need some time to catch up before he can produce on the field in the NFL. . .

for everyone wanting him to be traded (let alone cut), i personally believe that you're wasting you breath. . . i suppose anything is possible, but i highly doubt that the front office invested as much as they did in him only to cast him off before he even has the chance to play a few games and show them what he can do. . . i'll give you a minimum of ten-to-one odds that they give him at least one more year before giving up on him, and rightfully so IMO. . . we can probably all agree that we gve up too much for a raw project player, but we were desperate for a legit edge rusher, and we had to do something-- we can't take the move back at this point, so we may as well see it through to the end and see if we can get something back out of it. . .

[turftoad]

Johnson was drafted in the third round. Carolina did not move up in the first ot get him.

Look guys, we all want Moss and Crowder to do well, there's no doubt about it. They are Broncos.

Problem is, is they both should be AT LEAST contributing and be in the rotation.

Both of them, esspecially Moss should be doing more than what they have.

You would expect you first and second rounders to at least be active on game day. They ARE both healthy.

Maybe not total busts quite yet but major Disappointments so far none the less.

[TXBRONC]

Johnson was drafted in the third round. Carolina did not move up in the first ot get him.

Look guys, we all want Moss and Crowder to do well, there's no doubt about it. They are Broncos.

Problem is, is they both should be AT LEAST contributing and be in the rotation.

Both of them, esspecially Moss should be doing more than what they have.

You would expect you first and second rounders to at least be active on game day. They ARE both healthy.

Maybe not total busts quite yet but major Disappointments so far none the less.

I'm not sure why Crowder hasn't been able to make it onto the field very much but I heard that Moss hasn't because we have been running that 3-4 defense.

[MOtorboat]

I'm not sure why Crowder hasn't been able to make it onto the field very much but I heard that Moss hasn't because we have been running that 3-4 defense.

...and I don't get that at all...if there's anyone on this team suited for a 3-4, it'd be him at the rush linebacker position, of course, I suppose the other team would know that it would always be him rushing...

I've seen a lot of 3-3 in there too.

[TXBRONC]

...and I don't get that at all...if there's anyone on this team suited for a 3-4, it'd be him at the rush linebacker position, of course, I suppose the other team would know that it would always be him rushing...

I've seen a lot of 3-3 in there too.

Yes as 3-4 linebacker but not as pure defensive end in a 3-4 scheme.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_10652224

Shanahan: Moss could move to LB
By Lindsay Jones
The Denver Post
Article Last Updated: 10/06/2008 02:33:47 PM MDT


Jarvis Moss (94). (The Denver Post)Broncos coach Mike Shanahan on Monday said that defensive end Jarvis Moss, the team's first-round draft pick in 2007, could play at outside linebacker.

"He's right there in the 240 range and he still has his speed," Shanahan said. "You may see him some as a defensive end and some as an outside linebacker, so we've got the abilities to do some things with Jarvis that we haven't done in the past."

Moss has been a healthy scratch in three of the Broncos' five games this season, including Sunday's win against Tampa. He does not fit as well into the 3-4 scheme the team has used at times in the past few games.

Moss, officially listed at 265 pounds, played in six games in 2007 before breaking his right leg. He has one career sack.


Broncos re-add Mustard to ranks

The Broncos on Monday re-signed tight end Chad Mustard and released offensive lineman Dylan Gandy.

Mustard played for the Broncos in 2006 and 2007 and was among the team's final cuts after the preseason

[rcsodak]

Plant clam-Crowder on the inside after he gains some more bulk. He's a bust as a DE, but maybe they can salvage his contract as a DT.

[Buff]

Plant clam-Crowder on the inside after he gains some more bulk. He's a bust as a DE, but maybe they can salvage his contract as a DT.

Must be Red River week... :rolleyes:

;)

[TXBRONC]

Must be Red River week... :rolleyes:

;)


Yep it is.

[topscribe]

Aren't we throwing Moss and Crowder, yes and Thomas, under the bus a little
soon? Has anybody captured the concept that they're 2007 draft choices?

Sure, I'm disappointed with Moss so far. (Not Crowder or Thomas since
Thomas is starting and Crowder is in the rotation.) But he has been recovering
from an extremely serious injury, and he doesn't even have the equivalent of
a full rookie season under his belt.

In today's presser, Shanny said that Moss has the skills to play either DE or
LB. That sounds like he still has a high opinion of Moss' upside. And I don't
buy that it's because Moss is a 1st rounder and Shanny wants to save face.
That is not Shanny's style; to say so would be not to have paid attention to
his track record of how he has dealt with producers and non-producers.
Besides, in the wake of the Cutler-Scheffler-Marshall-Dumervil-Hixon-Kuper-
R. Harris-Thomas-Clady-Royal-Lichtensteiger-Torain-J. Williams-Larsen
drafts, he doesn't have much to be embarrassed about, even if Moss does
bust.

Nonetheless, we should see how Moss develops in his second year--which
will be next year. He will have an active season under his belt; will have
an offseason to fully regain his strength and maybe put on a few pounds;
and go through another set of OTAs and camp.

Then we'll throw him under the bus. :D

-----

[TXBRONC]

Aren't we throwing Moss and Crowder, yes and Thomas, under the bus a little
soon? Has anybody captured the concept that they're 2007 draft choices?

Sure, I'm disappointed with Moss so far. (Not Crowder or Thomas since
Thomas is starting and Crowder is in the rotation.) But he has been recovering
from an extremely serious injury, and he doesn't even have the equivalent of
a full rookie season under his belt.

In today's presser, Shanny said that Moss has the skills to play either DE or
LB. That sounds like he still has a high opinion of Moss' upside. And I don't
buy that it's because Moss is a 1st rounder and Shanny wants to save face.
That is not Shanny's style; to say so would be not to have paid attention to
his track record of how he has dealt with producers and non-producers.
Besides, in the wake of the Cutler-Scheffler-Marshall-Dumervil-Hixon-Kuper-
R. Harris-Thomas-Clady-Royal-Lichtensteiger-Torain-J. Williams-Larsen
drafts, he doesn't have much to be embarrassed about, even if Moss does
bust.

Nonetheless, we should see how Moss develops in his second year--which
will be next year. He will have an active season under his belt; will have
an offseason to fully regain his strength and maybe put on a few pounds;
and go through another set of OTAs and camp.

Then we'll throw him under the bus. :D

-----

I agree, lets see how he's doing a year from now.

[broncofaninfla]

Here are some of the top sackers from last year. First number is how long to took them to get above 5 sacks and second is how long it took them to get to double digit


Jared Allen: 1st year (2nd)

http://www.nfl.com/players/jaredallen/profile?id=ALL454745

Patrick Kerny: 3rd year(3rd)

http://www.nfl.com/players/patrickkerney/profile?id=KER459393

Mario Williams: 2nd year (2nd)

http://www.nfl.com/players/mariowilliams/profile?id=WIL431243

Osi Umenyiora: 2nd year (3rd)

http://www.nfl.com/players/osiumenyiora/profile?id=UME444955

Elvis Dumervil: 1st year(2nd)

http://www.nfl.com/players/elvisdumervil/profile?id=DUM179959

Aaron Kampman: 4th year(5th)

http://www.nfl.com/players/aaronkampman/profile?id=KAM725424

Kyle Vanden Bosch: 5th year(5th)

http://www.nfl.com/players/kylevandenbosch/profile?id=VAN378810

Jason Taylor: 1st year(4th)

http://www.nfl.com/players/jasontaylor/profile?id=TAY338550

John Abraham: 2nd year(2nd)

http://www.nfl.com/players/johnabraham/profile?id=ABR073003

Justin Tuck: 3rd year(3rd)

http://www.nfl.com/players/justintuck/profile?id=TUC056287



If you take the average it is 2 years for just having a single season over 5 sacks where it is 3 years average for double digits.

How many games were these guys inactive before turning it on?

[haroldthebarrel]

There is one constant.
Out of, Browncos, Moss, Crowder, Engleberger, Lang, Veal, Dumervil, Pope, Berry, Hayward,McClocton (and Pryce) adn many more since 2001, there are some anomalies.

Defined as draftees who developed or the free agents who had a career year here.
The few who did; Hayward, dumervil and Berry are actually anomalies.

In short, looking at the stats and trying to predict the future of a DL in Denver we should expect them to fail.

Now I wonder; is it because we cannot draft talent or is it because we cannot train talent? Or is it both?

Id look at this situation a lot before I would look at trading Moss and Crowder. Because if it is right that we are unable to train them into pros, we should expect new young guys to fail.

The guy I am looking closely at has initials beginning with J and B.

[haroldthebarrel]

Johnson was drafted in the third round. Carolina did not move up in the first ot get him.

Look guys, we all want Moss and Crowder to do well, there's no doubt about it. They are Broncos.

Problem is, is they both should be AT LEAST contributing and be in the rotation.

Both of them, esspecially Moss should be doing more than what they have.

You would expect you first and second rounders to at least be active on game day. They ARE both healthy.

Maybe not total busts quite yet but major Disappointments so far none the less.


The question we must ask is. Why are they not improving? Is it because of lack of talent; is it because of lack of training; is it because of lack of mental toughness; is it because of schemes. Is it a combination of some factors, or is the result of all the mentioned factors?

[TXBRONC]

There is one constant.
Out of, Browncos, Moss, Crowder, Engleberger, Lang, Veal, Dumervil, Pope, Berry, Hayward,McClocton (and Pryce) adn many more since 2001, there are some anomalies.

Defined as draftees who developed or the free agents who had a career year here.
The few who did; Hayward, dumervil and Berry are actually anomalies.

In short, looking at the stats and trying to predict the future of a DL in Denver we should expect them to fail.

Now I wonder; is it because we cannot draft talent or is it because we cannot train talent? Or is it both?

Id look at this situation a lot before I would look at trading Moss and Crowder. Because if it is right that we are unable to train them into pros, we should expect new young guys to fail.

The guy I am looking closely at has initials beginning with J and B.

I wouldn't trade two draft picks after just one season. Let's see if they can find a niche for these two before write them off as busts.

[haroldthebarrel]

I wouldn't trade two draft picks after just one season. Let's see if they can find a niche for these two before write them off as busts.

Agreed. The other point I am making, and this is much more serious. If we cannot develop talent, why not do something about that before you get new talent. Chances are they'll fail, just like the past attempts.

Why can Pittsburgh make basically any linebacker into a stud. No matter where they where drafted.

Anybody remember when you went to college and had this great lecturer that made it interesting?
Anybody remember when you got a new trainer and you became a much better player?

I am obviously hammering my thoughts in with a sledgehammer, but I do think that we are looking to much at the possibility that any player drafted that succeeds will succeed no matter what club he is drafted by. And I don't think that is necessarily true.

[Traveler]

Agreed. The other point I am making, and this is much more serious. If we cannot develop talent, why not do something about that before you get new talent. Chances are they'll fail, just like the past attempts.

Why can Pittsburgh make basically any linebacker into a stud. No matter where they where drafted.

Anybody remember when you went to college and had this great lecturer that made it interesting?
Anybody remember when you got a new trainer and you became a much better player?

I am obviously hammering my thoughts in with a sledgehammer, but I do think that we are looking to much at the possibility that any player drafted that succeeds will succeed no matter what club he is drafted by. And I don't think that is necessarily true.


Amen to that!:salute:

[TXBRONC]

Agreed. The other point I am making, and this is much more serious. If we cannot develop talent, why not do something about that before you get new talent. Chances are they'll fail, just like the past attempts.

Why can Pittsburgh make basically any linebacker into a stud. No matter where they where drafted.

Anybody remember when you went to college and had this great lecturer that made it interesting?
Anybody remember when you got a new trainer and you became a much better player?

I am obviously hammering my thoughts in with a sledgehammer, but I do think that we are looking to much at the possibility that any player drafted that succeeds will succeed no matter what club he is drafted by. And I don't think that is necessarily true.

That is a good point. I don't think we have a problem with coaching. Top notch defensive linemen are hard to come by. Most of the ones that will be solid at this level are usually taken very early in the first round. Besides that defensive line inparticularly defensive tackles like quarterbacks and wide receivers take time to develop.

[LRtagger]

...and I don't get that at all...if there's anyone on this team suited for a 3-4, it'd be him at the rush linebacker position, of course, I suppose the other team would know that it would always be him rushing...

I've seen a lot of 3-3 in there too.


If he was a dominant pass rusher in the 4-3 like he was supposed to be, you have to wonder if we would even be experimenting with a 3-4 at all.

[TXBRONC]

If we was a dominant pass rusher in the 4-3 like he was supposed to be, you have to wonder if we would even be experimenting with a 3-4 at all.

From what I've read it's not Moss' pass rushing skills that is keeping him off the field. The problem has been from I understand is that it's that he's strong enough in run defense.

[turftoad]

Agreed. The other point I am making, and this is much more serious. If we cannot develop talent, why not do something about that before you get new talent. Chances are they'll fail, just like the past attempts.

Why can Pittsburgh make basically any linebacker into a stud. No matter where they where drafted.

Anybody remember when you went to college and had this great lecturer that made it interesting?
Anybody remember when you got a new trainer and you became a much better player?

I am obviously hammering my thoughts in with a sledgehammer, but I do think that we are looking to much at the possibility that any player drafted that succeeds will succeed no matter what club he is drafted by. And I don't think that is necessarily true.

Mainly because Pittsburg ALWAYS has good defensive lineman to occupy opposing OL, meaning keeping the O'line off of the LB's so they can do thier job.

We don't have that luxury right now.

[MOtorboat]

If we was a dominant pass rusher in the 4-3 like he was supposed to be, you have to wonder if we would even be experimenting with a 3-4 at all.

Well...apparently he's not, so we have to do what we can do with the personnel we have. Five weeks into the season, not much is going to change. That said...he's played how many games? I'm with G, who has been advocating getting him on the field, regardless...

[turftoad]

From what I've read it's not Moss' pass rushing skills that is keeping him off the field. The problem has been from I understand is that it's that he's strong enough in run defense.

The same knock Dumerville has but you don't see him on the nonactive list.

[haroldthebarrel]

personally I think it is very telling that when we played veterans and let the youngsters sit, we played much better as a team.

Many posters here and at the orangemane have said that big plays are more often a result of a missed assignment than a bad scheme. I have come to believe that as well.

You Americans have a great saying: "if it works do more of it; if it doesnt work, do something different".
It worked against a very disciplined TB offense whose big plays are mostly through matchups and missed assignments. In that regard Gruden and Shanahan are very alike.
Thus, if I was coordinator I would use the veterans and hope to phase the youngsters in in situations where they have a strength as a role player.

I prefer the 3-4 system if I could choose. Having said that, I don't necessarily think that the combination of Slowik and Burney are ideal to make such a transition if and only if I am right that the problem is the failure to teach the position.

[turftoad]

Well...apparently he's not, so we have to do what we can do with the personnel we have. Five weeks into the season, not much is going to change. That said...he's played how many games? I'm with G, who has been advocating getting him on the field, regardless...

I agree. Get him on the field, see what he can do in a game time sitch, then we can decide if he's a bust or not.

[haroldthebarrel]

Mainly because Pittsburg ALWAYS has good defensive lineman to occupy opposing OL, meaning keeping the O'line off of the LB's so they can do thier job.

We don't have that luxury right now.

Do you think it is only that? Look at Timmons who was horrible last preseason.
He almost never played during the season. Now, look at him this season.He was a stud in the preseason. He and Woodley are stars in the making.

I am not saying that I am right in the teaching aspect. But I am damn convinced that the problem is much more complex than just finding talent and/or having linemen occupy the blockers.

[TXBRONC]

The same knock Dumerville has but you don't see him on the nonactive list.

Dumervil is 260 lbs and he works from a natural point that Moss doesn't have.

[turftoad]

Do you think it is only that? Look at Timmons who was horrible last preseason.
He almost never played during the season. Now, look at him this season.He was a stud in the preseason. He and Woodley are stars in the making.

I am not saying that I am right in the teaching aspect. But I am damn convinced that the problem is much more complex than just finding talent and/or having linemen occupy the blockers.

Harold, Moss is listed at 265lbs. Shanahan has said he weighs 240lbs.
He was supposed to gain weight during the offseason. Instead, he lost weight.
Now, I'm not saying that you're wrong talking about the coaching and the teaching aspect of the game however, Moss isn't doing what it takes to be a DE in this league.
Another 25lbs of good weight would probably make a diff. Because of his weight loss all the sudden we're talking about going to a 3-4 because he's not big enough to be 4-3 DE. If he was, all this 3-4 talk would be out the window.

[turftoad]

Dumervil is 260 lbs and he works from a natural point that Moss doesn't have.

Dumervil is still weak vs the run. just like the knock on Moss is. This is why I stated that Dumervil isn't on the nonactive list every week so it's got to be just more than that.

[CoachChaz]

Crowder played sparingly last year and was second on the team in sacks. I'm still waiting to hear a reason why he is incapable of repeating or improving.

[haroldthebarrel]

Harold, Moss is listed at 265lbs. Shanahan has said he weighs 240lbs.
He was supposed to gain weight during the offseason. Instead, he lost weight.
Now, I'm not saying that you're wrong talking about the coaching and the teaching aspect of the game however, Moss isn't doing what it takes to be a DE in this league.
Another 25lbs of good weight would probably make a diff. Because of his weight loss all the sudden we're talking about going to a 3-4 because he's not big enough to be 4-3 DE. If he was, all this 3-4 talk would be out the window.

Then you are basically saying that his weight is the factor that keeps him off the gametime roster. Or at the very least is a huge factor in his failure to develop.

There is another issue with your point that is very interesting. I distinctly remember reading that Shanahan said that he had become a work out warrior. This was before the draft if I recall correctly.
Now, why is it that in the off season he is said to be gaining good weight and then when training camp starts he is as rail think as before.
Something doesn't add up in the equation at all.

I see your point and it is a good one. Let's do a hypothetical example.
Had we gotten Tuck for Wilson, would he be as individually good here?
Had the Giants drafted Moss. Would he have become a better individually player there?

My first impression is to answer no and yes. I am very interested to hear your guys views on the two hypothetical examples.

[haroldthebarrel]

Crowder played sparingly last year and was second on the team in sacks. I'm still waiting to hear a reason why he is incapable of repeating or improving.

For a guy living in Texas like you, isn't it pretty obvious that Longhorns take a while to develop in the NFL? Much longer than players from comparable universities like Ohio State, Miami, Florida etc.

I have read many places that say the Longhorns just win on pure talent but fail to develop players individually as well as their draftees tend to be mentally weak.
Knowing this, it doesn't come as a surprise that Crowder has a long way to go, and it also explains the Vince Young debacle to an extent.

[turftoad]

Then you are basically saying that his weight is the factor that keeps him off the gametime roster. Or at the very least is a huge factor in his failure to develop.

There is another issue with your point that is very interesting. I distinctly remember reading that Shanahan said that he had become a work out warrior. This was before the draft if I recall correctly.
Now, why is it that in the off season he is said to be gaining good weight and then when training camp starts he is as rail think as before.
Something doesn't add up in the equation at all.

I see your point and it is a good one. Let's do a hypothetical example.
Had we gotten Tuck for Wilson, would he be as individually good here?
Had the Giants drafted Moss. Would he have become a better individually player there?

My first impression is to answer no and yes. I am very interested to hear your guys views on the two hypothetical examples.

I don't ever remember Tuck being inactive on game day.

Tuck was never going to beat out Strahan and Osi. They were very, very productive DE's. Our starters are not. Tuck probably would have moved into the staring lineup his second year, if not his first.
That said, Tuck had a couple of really good DE's to learn from and weighs 275lbs.
I don't think Moss would be starting there even with Strahan retiring and Osi being hurt.
Like I said before, Moss can't even beat out Ekuban or Engleberger, I'm sure Tuck could.

BTW, I don't remember anything about Shanny saying Moss had become a workout warrior.
Again, I know Moss broke a leg (or whatever) last year but has had plenty of time to heal. He needs some reps to gauge how he is.

Shanny see's him every day in practice, he's still been inactive for 4 out of 5 games.
That says a ton right there.

[turftoad]

For a guy living in Texas like you, isn't it pretty obvious that Longhorns take a while to develop in the NFL? Much longer than players from comparable universities like Ohio State, Miami, Florida etc.

I have read many places that say the Longhorns just win on pure talent but fail to develop players individually as well as their draftees tend to be mentally weak.
Knowing this, it doesn't come as a surprise that Crowder has a long way to go, and it also explains the Vince Young debacle to an extent.

I don't buy it.



The Vikes drafted Brian Robison in the 4th round last year. Robison started opposite Crowder at Texas.

Robison is 6'3" and 267lbs.

NFL History2007
Earned spot on Pro Football Weekly’s All-Rookie Team and started 5 games...Opened the final 4 straight games at RDE and started 1st career game at Detroit (9/16) at LDE...Ranked 3rd in the NFL for sacks among rookies with 4.5...Burst onto the scene with 2.0 sacks in the regular season opener vs. Atlanta (9/9)...Sacked Packers QB Brett Favre (9/30) on the day he broke the NFL TD passes record...Sacked former Vikings QB Daunte Culpepper vs. Oakland (11/18) and forced a fumble that was recovered by LB Chad Greenway...Had 5 tackles at San Francisco (12/9), his season-high.

Looks like we drafted the wrong DE out of Texas last year.

[haroldthebarrel]

I don't ever remember Tuck being inactive on game day.

Tuck was never going to beat out Strahan and Osi. They were very, very productive DE's. Our starters are not. Tuck probably would have moved into the staring lineup his second year, if not his first.
That said, Tuck had a couple of really good DE's to learn from and weighs 275lbs.
I don't think Moss would be starting there even with Strahan retiring and Osi being hurt.
Like I said before, Moss can't even beat out Ekuban or Engleberger, I'm sure Tuck could.

BTW, I don't remember anything about Shanny saying Moss had become a workout warrior.
Again, I know Moss broke a leg (or whatever) last year but has had plenty of time to heal. He needs some reps to gauge how he is.

Shanny see's him every day in practice, he's still been inactive for 4 out of 5 games.
That says a ton right there.

I tend to agree with you. The question I asked though was do you think Moss would be a better player in NY? Not if he was starting.

We all agree he has been a huge dissappointment if not a bust thus far.
The question is why? And why is the common demonitor(i think this is the right word) that in the last five years, the only end that has played as good or better than predicted is Dumervil. Why have everybody else either played worse than they did in for instance Cleveland than they did here, when we on paper are a much better club.

[haroldthebarrel]

I don't buy it.



The Vikes drafted Brian Robison in the 4th round last year. Robison started opposite Crowder at Texas.

Robison is 6'3" and 267lbs.

NFL History2007
Earned spot on Pro Football Weekly’s All-Rookie Team and started 5 games...Opened the final 4 straight games at RDE and started 1st career game at Detroit (9/16) at LDE...Ranked 3rd in the NFL for sacks among rookies with 4.5...Burst onto the scene with 2.0 sacks in the regular season opener vs. Atlanta (9/9)...Sacked Packers QB Brett Favre (9/30) on the day he broke the NFL TD passes record...Sacked former Vikings QB Daunte Culpepper vs. Oakland (11/18) and forced a fumble that was recovered by LB Chad Greenway...Had 5 tackles at San Francisco (12/9), his season-high.

Looks like we drafted the wrong DE out of Texas last year.

That is true if and only if the assertion that a player who succeeds will succeed regardless of the club he is drafted by is correct.
And I am questioning that assertion....

Great discussion so far though.

[LRtagger]

Well...apparently he's not, so we have to do what we can do with the personnel we have. Five weeks into the season, not much is going to change. That said...he's played how many games? I'm with G, who has been advocating getting him on the field, regardless...

My only problem with that is, if he can't make enough of an impression in camp or practice to even dress for games, what reason does any of us have to think that he can get better or make a positive impact in a live game situation? IMO he would be a bigger liability on the field than anyone else currently out there (and that is saying a lot) and it is too risky considering we are 4-1 right now to lose a game because of something he could potentially do (or not do) on the field.

If it were last year or we were 2-3 this year I would be all for it, but I am thinking the only playoff spot coming from the West will be the division winner and we cant risk giving up any ground to SD just to "hopefully" develop players on the field that cant even develop in the weightroom or in camp.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for letting guys get some experience under their belts in a game situation...but if he can't even do it in practice I see no hope for him in a game. Gametime can really only better your game, but based on my own personal experience, practice is the foundation for building the proper tools to play the game at a high level.

I am just dumbfounded as to why Moss hasn't been good enough to even dress out for games.

[HolyDiver]

Other NFL teams don't want Moss playing DE with his small frame and size. He has no vlaue, except in college and he already graduated.

Put him as an outside Linebacker in a 3-4 ....He'll have some value there.

[haroldthebarrel]

My only problem with that is, if he can't make enough of an impression in camp or practice to even dress for games, what reason does any of us have to think that he can get better or make a positive impact in a live game situation? IMO he would be a bigger liability on the field than anyone else currently out there (and that is saying a lot) and it is too risky considering we are 4-1 right now to lose a game because of something he could potentially do (or not do) on the field.

If it were last year or we were 2-3 this year I would be all for it, but I am thinking the only playoff spot coming from the West will be the division winner and we cant risk giving up any ground to SD just to "hopefully" develop players on the field that cant even develop in the weightroom or in camp.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for letting guys get some experience under their belts in a game situation...but if he can't even do it in practice I see no hope for him in a game. Gametime can really only better your game, but based on my own personal experience, practice is the foundation for building the proper tools to play the game at a high level.

I am just dumbfounded as to why Moss hasn't been good enough to even dress out for games.

When I look at the games and rewind each play I saw one trend before the TB game. That was we made too many mental mistakes.
Think of the long run by LJ where our lb failed to contain even though he was in great position to tackle him.

Seeing the TB game we played smart and efficient, and we did that with mainly veterans. I do hope that Slowik realizes we have to make fewer mental mistakes and thus delay the development of the youngsters. this is because we are in a position to win this year. If we had been 1-4 I am guessing we would have seen more of the young guys.

Having said that. At this point both the second year ends are huge disappointments. They have a personal responsibility as pro players to practice using their hands and technique on their own, and looking how bad their technique are, they obviously haven't done their part.

[topscribe]

How many games were these guys inactive before turning it on?

I don't believe that is relevant. Everyone has his own path to take where he
is going. Dan Marino, for instance, had the most successful rookie season in
history but never won a Super Bowl. Jim Plunkett not only was inactive, but
cut as a bust before he finally caught fire earned his SB ring.

Crowder and Moss have had obstacles that few others have experience,
including injuries, overhauling an defensive system while they were simply
trying to learn pro football, and shuffling of defensive staff personnel, not
once, but twice during their brief tenure here.

They may bust. They may not. But we have not had the proper platform upon
which to judge them. I believe the coaches feel much the same way, or they
would not be here.

-----

[turftoad]

I don't believe that is relevant. Everyone has his own path to take where he
is going. Dan Marino, for instance, had the most successful rookie season in
history but never won a Super Bowl. Jim Plunkett not only was inactive, but
cut as a bust before he finally caught fire earned his SB ring.

Crowder and Moss have had obstacles that few others have experience,
including injuries, overhauling an defensive system while they were simply
trying to learn pro football, and shuffling of defensive staff personnel, not
once, but twice during their brief tenure here.

They may bust. They may not. But we have not had the proper platform upon
which to judge them. I believe the coaches feel much the same way, or they
would not be here.

-----


I hope you're right Top.

But........ if the coach's felt the same way they may be on the active roster, not in street cloths every game.

[topscribe]

I hope you're right Top.

But........ if the coach's felt the same way they may be on the active roster, not in street cloths every game.

No, if they did not feel the same way, then my thinking is those players would
have already received their pink slips. I don't believe we should read into why
they are inactive for certain games.

The coaches want to see more, or the players would be gone. Shanny's
comment about Moss is reflective of that. He said that Moss may be able to
do some things as LB that they haven't been able to do otherwise.

It just seems they had to go back to Start with them and work their way
forward again because of the factors I mentioned. Bottom line, however, is
that they are still here.

As I said, next year we'll know. This year we don't . . . either way. And
neither do the coaches, from my impression, anyway.

IMHO.

-----

[dogfish]

Harold, Moss is listed at 265lbs. Shanahan has said he weighs 240lbs.
He was supposed to gain weight during the offseason. Instead, he lost weight.
Now, I'm not saying that you're wrong talking about the coaching and the teaching aspect of the game however, Moss isn't doing what it takes to be a DE in this league.
Another 25lbs of good weight would probably make a diff. Because of his weight loss all the sudden we're talking about going to a 3-4 because he's not big enough to be 4-3 DE. If he was, all this 3-4 talk would be out the window.



i don't think that's fair. . . shenanigans said we're mixing in some 3-4 looks because of our failure to generate sufficient pass rush from the 4-3, and no way that's all moss's fault-- we've got a rotation of 8-9 defensive linemen, they ALL need to take some blame for that, not just the young guy with virtually no experience under his belt. . . . luckily, we did see some improvements against tampa. . . a lot of it came from doom and ekuban-- both of them are coming off injuries, so maybe that will continue. . . doom has been playing with a broken bone in his hand, which really limits the counter-moves for a guy that thrives using them-- and ekuban is coming back from a torn achilles, which can really limit a guy's explosion. . . i also thought that peterson looked more active, and i thought slowick got a little more creative, mixing in zone blitzes and even that aggressive double corner blitz where champ took out greaseball. . . .

we'll see if that continues going forward, but if it does it gives us a little more leeway to keep moss working in the weight room and the practice field. . . with crowder, it's harder for me to understand what's going on. . . unlike moss, he was a polished product coming out of college, with four year's worth of starts under his belt-- he also had plenty of weight, displayed good strength with a good showing in the bench press at the combine, and reportedly impressed scouts with a better-than-expected array of pass rush moves during senior bowl practices. . . he showed some flashes last year, and it's a little puzzling why he seems to have fallen off the map. . . .

unfortunately, i have to wonder if it's effort. . . maybe coach can contribute some info here, but some of the reports that i read on crowder indicated that he didn't necessarily go full tilt on every play. . . here are a few examples from draftscout.com's (http://www.nfldraftscout.com/members/index.php) report:


he seems to coast a bit and take plays off when having to move long distances...Tends to stay on the ground when leveled, rather than getting up quickly to bounce back into the play...sometimes over-pursues the play and doesn't always give the effort needed to recover...Will close in a hurry in plays in front of him, but does not seem to like chasing the play in long pursuit...

i don't know if that's really the problem or not, but some people seemed to feel that it was a red flag with him before the draft. . . you hope that's not the case, but it wouldn't shock me if a guy that maybe isn't the highest in intrinsic motivation to begin with got pissed that he had to start camp behind some vets on the depth chart and hasn't exactly been busting his ass. . . . i'm not saying that IS the case-- i obviously don't know crowder, and i don't want to attack his character when we haven't had any reports to verify that-- but i thought it was at least worth mentioning. . . . in any case, he's the one i'm more concerned about at this point-- after moss got hurt last year i pretty much resigned myself that we might not really see that much from him until the '09 season, but i expected crowder to be making some impact by now. . . .

[haroldthebarrel]

i don't think that's fair. . . shenanigans said we're mixing in some 3-4 looks because of our failure to generate sufficient pass rush from the 4-3, and no way that's all moss's fault-- we've got a rotation of 8-9 defensive linemen, they ALL need to take some blame for that, not just the young guy with virtually no experience under his belt. . . . luckily, we did see some improvements against tampa. . . a lot of it came from doom and ekuban-- both of them are coming off injuries, so maybe that will continue. . . doom has been playing with a broken bone in his hand, which really limits the counter-moves for a guy that thrives using them-- and ekuban is coming back from a torn achilles, which can really limit a guy's explosion. . . i also thought that peterson looked more active, and i thought slowick got a little more creative, mixing in zone blitzes and even that aggressive double corner blitz where champ took out greaseball. . . .

we'll see if that continues going forward, but if it does it gives us a little more leeway to keep moss working in the weight room and the practice field. . . with crowder, it's harder for me to understand what's going on. . . unlike moss, he was a polished product coming out of college, with four year's worth of starts under his belt-- he also had plenty of weight, displayed good strength with a good showing in the bench press at the combine, and reportedly impressed scouts with a better-than-expected array of pass rush moves during senior bowl practices. . . he showed some flashes last year, and it's a little puzzling why he seems to have fallen off the map. . . .

unfortunately, i have to wonder if it's effort. . . maybe coach can contribute some info here, but some of the reports that i read on crowder indicated that he didn't necessarily go full tilt on every play. . . here are a few examples from draftscout.com's (http://www.nfldraftscout.com/members/index.php) report:



i don't know if that's really the problem or not, but some people seemed to feel that it was a red flag with him before the draft. . . you hope that's not the case, but it wouldn't shock me if a guy that maybe isn't the highest in intrinsic motivation to begin with got pissed that he had to start camp behind some vets on the depth chart and hasn't exactly been busting his ass. . . . i'm not saying that IS the case-- i obviously don't know crowder, and i don't want to attack his character when we haven't had any reports to verify that-- but i thought it was at least worth mentioning. . . . in any case, he's the one i'm more concerned about at this point-- after moss got hurt last year i pretty much resigned myself that we might not really see that much from him until the '09 season, but i expected crowder to be making some impact by now. . . .

There has never been a longhorn player that was polished coming out of college. The closest may be Derrick Johnson and he struggled mightily with the mental bit coming out of college even though he got stats.

At this point, I am choosing to believe our failure to produce defensive linemen is due to one constant. Jacob Burney.
I repeat myself, but can him and Slowik and pay up to get Jim Washburn who trains the Titans defensive line, and I am certain at least gap assignments and pass rush wont be the pitfall like it has been the last five years.

[turftoad]

i don't think that's fair. . . shenanigans said we're mixing in some 3-4 looks because of our failure to generate sufficient pass rush from the 4-3, and no way that's all moss's fault--

It's a big part Moss's fault.

Hell, we moved up in the first round, giving our 1st and a 3rd rounder to get him.
He was drafted to put pressure on the QB and make a difference on the "D" line. He has hardly been a difference maker.

Had he come in and did what he was drafted to do (put pressure on the QB), we wouldn't even be thinking about going to 3-4.
There was no talk about going 3-4 until after the season started, like after the 2nd game when it was decided that we can't pressure the QB worth a shit.


At this point he's been playing three positions: End, Gaurd and Tackle.

He sits on the END of the bench, GAURDS the water jug and TACKLES anyone who near it.

That's how he's making his millions. :tsk:

[topscribe]

Harold, Moss is listed at 265lbs. Shanahan has said he weighs 240lbs.
He was supposed to gain weight during the offseason. Instead, he lost weight.
Now, I'm not saying that you're wrong talking about the coaching and the teaching aspect of the game however, Moss isn't doing what it takes to be a DE in this league.
Another 25lbs of good weight would probably make a diff. Because of his weight loss all the sudden we're talking about going to a 3-4 because he's not big enough to be 4-3 DE. If he was, all this 3-4 talk would be out the window.

I think Shanny was approximating. Moss actually reported to camp at 248.
But the rest of your post is correct, IMO.

-----

[dogfish]

They should just be cut.



Other NFL teams don't want Moss playing DE with his small frame and size. He has no value.



What ISN'T up for debate is that neither one is any good in the NFL and neither one needs any more time wasted on them.



Boot them to the curb



If you are a first and second round pick and have spent more time being inactive than playing when you are healthy, you are a bust.



i took the names out of the quotes because i'm not trying to specifically call anyone out, but i did want to bump this thread and see if people still think moss should be cut or otherwise thrown away after he came up with two sacks and two big tackles for loss in the running game today? anybody care to admit that they let their impatience get the best of them, and they see now why it's way too early to give up on this kid, especially after what we gave up to get him? he's not the garbage a lot of you have been so eager to make him out to be-- he's a light-weight that would have really benefitted from another year of college ball, missed most of his rookie year and has been WAY behind the eight ball in terms of both practice and playing time. . . but now that we're actually getting him out there, we're starting to see a few dividends. . . yea, i can already hear the responses-- "he made a few plays, BFD!" hey, it shows that he has some potential. . . that's why you don't give up on guys before they've played a dozen games, particularly a guy that's coming off a major injury and is probably still a little tentative. . .

give him (hopefully, knock on wood) another half season's experience, plus an offseason in the weight room and another TC, and i wouldn't be surprised if he ends up turning into a quality starter for us next year after all. . .

[topscribe]

i took the names out of the quotes because i'm not trying to specifically call anyone out, but i did want to bump this thread and see if people still think moss should be cut or otherwise thrown away after he came up with two sacks and two big tackles for loss in the running game today? anybody care to admit that they let their impatience get the best of them, and they see now why it's way too early to give up on this kid, especially after what we gave up to get him? he's not the garbage a lot of you have been so eager to make him out to be-- he's a light-weight that would have really benefitted from another year of college ball, missed most of his rookie year and has been WAY behind the eight ball in terms of both practice and playing time. . . but now that we're actually getting him out there, we're starting to see a few dividends. . . yea, i can already hear the responses-- "he made a few plays, BFD!" hey, it shows that he has some potential. . . that's why you don't give up on guys before they've played a dozen games, particularly a guy that's coming off a major injury and is probably still a little tentative. . .

give him (hopefully, knock on wood) another half season's experience, plus an offseason in the weight room and another TC, and i wouldn't be surprised if he ends up turning into a quality starter for us next year after all. . .

Moss has a ways to go, but he seems to be getting better by the game.
Doesn't he even look a little bigger to you than before, or is it just me?

-----

[dogfish]

Moss has a ways to go, but he seems to be getting better by the game.
Doesn't he even look a little bigger to you than before, or is it just me?

-----

i'm not sure, but it does seem to me that he's been around the ball a fair bit the past few games. . . .

[Lonestar]

You never get value for busts or for that matter starters in todays society

Rarely do you get a top notch day one pick for a starter so why would you want to flush them away for a #4 or 6 pick.. The odds are WAY OUT there that you could come up with decent backup let alone a starter..

Moss may never live up to his #1 pick but when it is time to redo contract if he becomes a situational player the contract is adjusted.. Until then he is an spare part in case he is needed.. same goes for crowder.. if they can't make the team next year cut them and wish them well.. wasting time and effort making a trade is more money down the drain..

[topscribe]

i'm not sure, but it does seem to me that he's been around the ball a fair bit the past few games. . . .

We have to remember, this is essentially Moss' first year.

And Crowder is behind a couple journeymen players, true, but they are very
experienced journeymen, and Crowder is only in his second year.

I would like to see them both next year before I make a judgment on their
worth.

-----

[OrangeStar7]

Sure, we can trade them. Maybe get a bag of popcorn or peanuts for them.

Throw in a cold one and it's a deal!!:beer:

[WARHORSE]

Moss has a ways to go, but he seems to be getting better by the game.
Doesn't he even look a little bigger to you than before, or is it just me?

-----


Four tackles, two sacks.

I'll take that anyday.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

good for him. Hopefully he can continue to progress.

[Dreadnought]

Moss was something of a bright spot yesterday in an otherwise dismal game. I'm hoping we can find ways keep the guy on the field more regularly.

[lex]

Id be more for signing Peppers or Suggs in FA and then trading Doom only because he would get us more in trade.

[roomemp]

They have no value right now. Moss has looked promising. I would say hang onto them.

[eessydo]

Other NFL teams don't want Moss playing DE with his small frame and size. He has no vlaue, except in college and he already graduated.

Not true. I beleive if he still has his speed he could succeed in a 3/4 as an outside rushing linebacker.

[eessydo]

You never get value for busts or for that matter starters in todays society

Rarely do you get a top notch day one pick for a starter so why would you want to flush them away for a #4 or 6 pick.. The odds are WAY OUT there that you could come up with decent backup let alone a starter..

Tony Dorsett really screwed that one up for the league, didn't he....

[Gamechanger]

If ya'll commit to the 3-4 I think Moss would be a good situational pass rushing LB like Roosevelt Colvin, I'd give them both time, it looks like Crowder is also a project player, is he not?

[broncofaninfla]

I think there is potential for Moss, i didn't feel that way a month ago.

[MOtorboat]

Moss had a good game, now hopefully, he can stay in the lineup from here on out. He's a pass-rushing specialist, so if he can get two sacks every game, and the other three lineman can effectively stop the run, I think we're actually OK up front. But one game does not make a career, much less a season. Hopefully, he is now "getting it" and can play on a consistent level from here on out.

Crowder was a no-show yesterday, though. Did he play? I didn't see him anywhere.

With D.J. prospectively out for a few weeks, and Boss done for the season, that puts a TON of pressure on the front four to get things done. Hopefully, someone can step in (Woodyard or Green, or whoever) and play well at WLB, so Webster and Winborn aren't put on too much of an island, because we all know what happens when they are put on an island...we get torched. I'd probably advocate playing in a nickel most of the time with D.J. out...use McCree/Koutavides as that fifth defensive back/third linebacker.