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Dzone
03-10-2011, 01:19 PM
How much would a Bailey-Peterson tandem improve the pass rush?
http://bleacherreport.com/tb/b8t0L

BroncoStud
03-10-2011, 01:28 PM
I would love to draft the guy, especially with Cox having legal issues, but I think he would make a solid NFL Safety.

GEM
03-10-2011, 01:33 PM
How much would a Bailey-Peterson tandem improve the pass rush?
http://bleacherreport.com/tb/b8t0L

Help the pass rush? Ummmmm....not at all. Unless Champ or Peterson throw on about a hundred pounds and change positions to lineman, they won't do shit for the pass rush.

Help the pass rush? Ummmm....if they don't get some better pieces up front and they depend on lower round guys or some of the guys on the current roster, they won't matter in the secondary.

TXBRONC
03-10-2011, 01:38 PM
How much would a Bailey-Peterson tandem improve the pass rush?
http://bleacherreport.com/tb/b8t0L

I don't think it would improve the pass rush at all.

MileHighCrew
03-10-2011, 01:38 PM
The idea of a Peterson pick is the pure reason the Broncos need to focus on the entire draft and not just the 1 pick. Yes the2nd overall has to have a huge impact but that can happen in different forms.
I would be happy with Peterson if it is followed up with the right 2nd round picks.

underrated29
03-10-2011, 01:40 PM
I would be happy if Chrstina Agulierra would run into me in vegas and want to bump uglies.



But it is not going to happen.

BroncoStud
03-10-2011, 01:44 PM
Well it's a misleading question...

Would Peterson help the pass rush? No.

Would he help the defense? Yes.

You would have to follow up his pick with a few solid D-Line picks.

rcsodak
03-10-2011, 01:46 PM
The idea of a Peterson pick is the pure reason the Broncos need to focus on the entire draft and not just the 1 pick. Yes the2nd overall has to have a huge impact but that can happen in different forms.
I would be happy with Peterson if it is followed up with the right 2nd round picks.
Whatif the "right 2nd round picks" aren't there/possible?
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dogfish
03-10-2011, 01:48 PM
How much would a Bailey-Peterson tandem improve the pass rush?


i'll take "el zilcho" for five-hundred please, alex. . .



bonus trick question; how much would it help the run defense?

silkamilkamonico
03-10-2011, 01:49 PM
If we drafted Peterson, who would our DT's be after the releases of Williams/Bannan?

Vickerson and Ayers?

LMAO

dogfish
03-10-2011, 01:55 PM
If we drafted Peterson, who would our DT's be after the releases of Williams/Bannan?

Vickerson and Ayers?

LMAO

don't worry about that. . . we might be able to get drake nevis in the third-- solved!


besides, those guys are good-- going back to the 4-3 will really allow them to shine. . .

vandammage13
03-10-2011, 02:09 PM
Peterson's presence wouldn't help the pass rush get better, but it could help to mask the sorryness of it.

The pass rush could remain the same, but if the presence of Peterson blanketing a WR can buy the D-line and extra half second to rush the QB it would help them.

He can't make them better, but he can buy them a little more time.

BroncoNut
03-10-2011, 02:17 PM
I think what Dzone was getting at is the coverage these corners would apply to extend passing plays. I would agree, it would help the pass rush. I like Peterson, I wouldn't be surprised if we grab him at no. 2

tomjonesrocks
03-10-2011, 02:23 PM
Of course he wants to play here. 2nd off the board overall? Cash money.

Peterson's appealing--particularly his size--but I am not sure this team has the luxury of drafting him. Find another stopgap on the line?

MileHighCrew
03-10-2011, 02:27 PM
Whatif the "right 2nd round picks" aren't there/possible?
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This team is not going to be fixed in one draft. So if that is the case, move forward with the best player in the draft (Peterson) and build from there. It is not the only way to build and not the first choice for many but it wouldn't be a bad day knowing Peterson is a Bronco.

Ziggy
03-10-2011, 02:35 PM
Elway and Fox understand what it takes to build a defense. Unlike the last 2 regimes, they know that you don't pass on a blue chip front 7 player for a blue chip secondary player unless you already have a great front 7. Peterson won't be a Bronco.

SOCALORADO.
03-10-2011, 02:57 PM
If we drafted Peterson, who would our DT's be after the releases of Williams/Bannan?

Vickerson and Ayers?

LMAO

You do realize that Ryan McBean is still on DENs roster right?
He could easily move to DT and absolutely dominate.

DEN would then have
Doom
Vickerson
McBean
Ayers

Thats "Pro Bowl" right there.
DENs Problems are solved my friend!!

Ziggy
03-10-2011, 03:16 PM
We really do need a humor/sarcasm button on this forum.

SOCALORADO.
03-10-2011, 03:37 PM
we really do need a humor/sarcasm button on this forum.
;)...

bcbronc
03-10-2011, 03:40 PM
Help the pass rush? Ummmmm....not at all. Unless Champ or Peterson throw on about a hundred pounds and change positions to lineman, they won't do shit for the pass rush.

Help the pass rush? Ummmm....if they don't get some better pieces up front and they depend on lower round guys or some of the guys on the current roster, they won't matter in the secondary.

Does blitzing Charles Woodson from anywhere and everywhere on the field help or hurt GB's pass rush?

How about the way NYJ use aggressive man on man coverage so they can blitz the kitchen sink? Help or hurt their pass rush?

More than one way to pop a pimple.
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topscribe
03-10-2011, 03:52 PM
As I opined before, this draft is extremely deep in DL. They could draft Peterson
and it looks as if they could still get two very good DTs in the 2nd.

Not to worry, IMO . . .

-----

dogfish
03-10-2011, 03:59 PM
Does blitzing Charles Woodson from anywhere and everywhere on the field help or hurt GB's pass rush?

How about the way NYJ use aggressive man on man coverage so they can blitz the kitchen sink? Help or hurt their pass rush?

More than one way to pop a pimple.
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good point-- we should just draft all offense, and dominate so much that we don't even need defense. . .

:heh:

SOCALORADO.
03-10-2011, 04:03 PM
Does blitzing Charles Woodson from anywhere and everywhere on the field help or hurt GB's pass rush?

How about the way NYJ use aggressive man on man coverage so they can blitz the kitchen sink? Help or hurt their pass rush?

More than one way to pop a pimple.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

GB defense 5th
NYJ defense 3rd
Denver Broncos efense 32nd

Wow. Just wow.

Agent of Orange
03-10-2011, 04:05 PM
GB defense 5th
NYJ defense 3rd
Denver Broncos efense 32nd

Wow. Just wow.

Yeah, its kind of like all these people who point to Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu while forgetting both of their teams are strong in the front 7.

SOCALORADO.
03-10-2011, 04:34 PM
Yeah, its kind of like all these people who point to Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu while forgetting both of their teams are strong in the front 7.

Oh, and nevermind the fact that 2 UDFAs played in place of the great, injured secondary players on GB for the entire 2nd half of the SB and looked and played great. Scrubs looking like superstars because of the front 7.
When a team has a good front 7, the secondary players can basically be people off the street.

Northman
03-10-2011, 04:56 PM
Well it's a misleading question...

Would Peterson help the pass rush? No.

Would he help the defense? Yes.

You would have to follow up his pick with a few solid D-Line picks.

Which Denver has failed to do in a decade.

Now, Denver has an opportunity to grab a difference maker on the Dline and people still want to risk taking 2nd rate guys hoping they will be gems.

Northman
03-10-2011, 04:58 PM
Elway and Fox understand what it takes to build a defense. Unlike the last 2 regimes, they know that you don't pass on a blue chip front 7 player for a blue chip secondary player unless you already have a great front 7. Peterson won't be a Bronco.

Bingo!

arapaho2
03-10-2011, 05:03 PM
it does nothing for the pass rush...i think it does little for the overall defense

you build a defense STARTING AT THE LINE and work back

useing the jets as a reason is no good...the jets have a front 7 that can stop the run...they have lineman that can get to the qb on their own...they get a lot of DB sacks because the front line can crush the pocket

we dont have a line that can crush the pocket....we cant eliminate the pocket for the qb to step up in, like the jets can

the jets can stop the run, therfore they can blitz a db and leave the safetys in coverage without worrying about getting run over...we cant

we leave peterson and champ in coverage, drop the safetys, so we can blitz the lbr and or nickle...and we will get totaly beat down by the run game

Traveler
03-10-2011, 05:21 PM
Elway and Fox understand what it takes to build a defense. Unlike the last 2 regimes, they know that you don't pass on a blue chip front 7 player for a blue chip secondary player unless you already have a great front 7. Peterson won't be a Bronco.

Guess my definition of blue chip is different from yours. I frankly do not view any of the top linemen this year as blue chip must haves.

I consider Suh is blue chip type player. Dareus, possible. Bowers, maybe. Fairley, no.

Good players all, but definitely not blue chip, game changing types.

arapaho2
03-10-2011, 05:35 PM
Guess my definition of blue chip is different from yours. I frankly do not view any of the top linemen this year as blue chip must haves.

I consider Suh is blue chip type player. Dareus, possible. Bowers, maybe. Fairley, no.

Good players all, but definitely not blue chip, game changing types.

think team....you can have a excellent defense with solid to great players....if the line is solid

we draft peterson we will have two blue chip CBs...playing for a team in the bottom the defense standings and 25th to 32nd in passing

people get the misnotion that if champ and P2 shut down the wrs they are on...we will be great...what about the Tes...its a TE passing world these days...what about a 3 wr set

take away the 2 wrs but give the qb all day to survey ...he and the OC will find mismatches quickly

bcbronc
03-10-2011, 05:42 PM
Yeah, its kind of like all these people who point to Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu while forgetting both of their teams are strong in the front 7.

Who has drafted more DL in the top 5 over the past decade or so: Pitt, Balt or Cleveland?
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SOCALORADO.
03-10-2011, 05:45 PM
think team....you can have a excellent defense with solid to great players....if the line is solid

we draft peterson we will have two blue chip CBs...playing for a team in the bottom the defense standings and 25th to 32nd in passing

people get the misnotion that if champ and P2 shut down the wrs they are on...we will be great...what about the Tes...its a TE passing world these days...what about a 3 wr set

take away the 2 wrs but give the qb all day to survey ...he and the OC will find mismatches quickly

Champ or Deon or Green or Revis cant cover a WR forever. It doesnt matter who it is and a rookie will only get burned more!
This just happens to specifically be DENs problem. No pass rush. No pressure. No hurries. No knock-downs of the QB. Opposing QBs love playing DEN. They have all day. Yeah, sure doom gets his sacks here and there, but they dont change the outcome of a game, and he is a one trick pony. He sucks against the run.
DEN needs 2, 4-3 DTs and a 4-3 DE.
Not to mention a MLB.

Timmy!
03-10-2011, 05:45 PM
If the Broncos draft Peterson at #2 I am going to freaking lose it.

Our front 7 is garbage, we just resigned Champ....I know! Let's draft a CB, making him the highest drafted CB of all friggin time. That will fix the defense. BRILLIANT!


:deadhorse:

dogfish
03-10-2011, 05:47 PM
You do realize that Ryan McBean is still on DENs roster right?
He could easily move to DT and absolutely dominate.

DEN would then have
Doom
Vickerson
McBean
Ayers

Thats "Pro Bowl" right there.
DENs Problems are solved my friend!!

see!?

that's a pretty friggin' damn solid 4-3 line right there-- tighten up the secondary with a player like patrick peterson, and we could really win some games with those guys!

Timmy!
03-10-2011, 05:51 PM
see!?

that's a pretty friggin' damn solid 4-3 line right there-- tighten up the secondary with a player like patrick peterson, and we could really win some games with those guys!

You make a great point. Personally I am concerned with our lack of depth on special teams. I think we should take a kicker and a punter with our 2 second round picks. Pick up a long snapper in the 3rd, and use the rest of the picks on a clip board holder (Quinn just looks tired on the sideline, poor guy is killing himself out there), and we need somebody to bring Fox his coffee in the morning as well. So there we have it, the perfect draft.

dogfish
03-10-2011, 05:51 PM
Guess my definition of blue chip is different from yours. I frankly do not view any of the top linemen this year as blue chip must haves.

I consider Suh is blue chip type player. Dareus, possible. Bowers, maybe. Fairley, no.

Good players all, but definitely not blue chip, game changing types.

suh is a once a generation talent-- probably rarer, actually. . . a DT that goes all-pro his rookie year? i'm sure it's happened before in the history of the game, but in this era it's unheard of. . . he shouldn't even be counted as a draft prospect-- dude is more like a force of nature. . . gerald mccoy was taken one pick later, and he's a puny baby compared to suh. . .

if suh is your definition of blue chip, you may never see another blue chip D-lineman in your lifetime. . . downgrading other prospects in comparison to him is equally as useful as trying to measure QB prospects by how well they compare to manning. . .

dogfish
03-10-2011, 05:53 PM
You make a great point. Personally I am concerned with our lack of depth on special teams. I think we should take a kicker and a punter with our 2 second round picks. Pick up a long snapper in the 3rd, and use the rest of the picks on a clip board holder (Quinn just looks tired on the sideline, poor guy is killing himself out there), and we need somebody to bring Fox his coffee in the morning as well. So there we have it, the perfect draft.

dude! we gotta spend our third on a token D-lineman so we can pretend we "fixed" the problem. . .

Poet
03-10-2011, 05:53 PM
How much would a Bailey-Peterson tandem improve the pass rush?
http://bleacherreport.com/tb/b8t0L

You would probably get more coverage sacks....

After Peterson hits the learning curve and stops make the unavoidable rookie mistakes his first year or so....

So immediately, it would be a minute amount, if at all.

arapaho2
03-10-2011, 05:55 PM
Champ or Deon or Green or Revis cant cover a WR forever. It doesnt matter who it is and a rookie will only get burned more!
This just happens to specifically be DENs problem. No pass rush. No pressure. No hurries. No knock-downs of the QB. Opposing QBs love playing DEN. They have all day. Yeah, sure doom gets his sacks here and there, but they dont change the outcome of a game, and he is a one trick pony. He sucks against the run.
DEN needs 2, 4-3 DTs and a 4-3 DE.
Not to mention a MLB.


exactly why we build the line...maybe dareus isnt considered a sure fire hof player to be...but he is the best DT in a deep dline draft and will imediatly pay dividends as our run defense improves and the pockets collapse

another cb does nothing for us


drafting BPA is good when your a good team already...we are not

underrated29
03-10-2011, 05:56 PM
Phillip Rivers is absolutely Praying to high hell and heaven and Jay cutler that we take Patrick Peterson. He does not want to see a DT who can actually play football collapse his pocket and or force him right into Doom!

Northman
03-10-2011, 06:01 PM
Phillip Rivers is absolutely Praying to high hell and heaven and Jay cutler that we take Patrick Peterson. He does not want to see a DT who can actually play football collapse his pocket and or force him right into Doom!

Meanwhile, because he has all day to throw and because Ryan is running rampant on our asses he will just check down like Manning to his third wideout and burn us for 50 again. :lol::lol::lol::lol:

topscribe
03-10-2011, 06:02 PM
suh is a once a generation talent-- probably rarer, actually. . . a DT that goes all-pro his rookie year? i'm sure it's happened before in the history of the game, but in this era it's unheard of. . . he shouldn't even be counted as a draft prospect-- dude is more like a force of nature. . . gerald mccoy was taken one pick later, and he's a puny baby compared to suh. . .

if suh is your definition of blue chip, you may never see another blue chip D-lineman in your lifetime. . . downgrading other prospects in comparison to him is equally as useful as trying to measure QB prospects by how well they compare to manning. . .

Oh, I've seen a few . . . Deacon Jones, Merlin Olsen, Reggie White, Bruce Smith.
We had one in Rich Jackson, although his career was cut short by injury. (I guess
"gina" is the new word for it on this board.)

But I see your point. Which makes me wonder about investing the #2 in the
D-line. The one player who is "Suh"-type "blue chip" would seem to be
Peterson -- although Von Miller could surprise there.

Also worthy of consideration is that Mayock and Lombardi agreed that there
may be a dozen or more DLs with first-round talent. And that's one scenario
the FO could possibly be looking at, one similar to what Traveler has in his
sig: Peterson, then two DTs, although I'm not sure either Austin or Taylor
will be around by the second of Denver's two 2nd rounders. (I also don't like
the idea of throwing the 4th rounder at a RB, as he has it, but that's another
issue.)

-----

Montana Battlin Bear
03-10-2011, 06:03 PM
I didn't know there was only one decision we could make all offseason to help our team....

Northman
03-10-2011, 06:05 PM
I didn't know there was only one decision we could make all offseason to help our team....


There isnt, but its the most important one for this team in a VERY LONG TIME. Lets hope the organization doesnt follow in the footsteps of its predecessors and actually think logically for once.

dogfish
03-10-2011, 06:08 PM
Oh, I've seen a few . . . Deacon Jones, Merlin Olsen, Reggie White, Bruce Smith.


my point exactly!

topscribe
03-10-2011, 06:13 PM
I didn't know there was only one decision we could make all offseason to help our team....

Of course, it isn't the only decision that can help the team.

But it is one decision that can help the team . . . immensely . . .

-----

Poet
03-10-2011, 06:20 PM
The Broncos are going to take Cam Newton, so it's a moot point.

topscribe
03-10-2011, 06:21 PM
The Broncos are going to take Cam Newton, so it's a moot point.

:faint:

-----

dogfish
03-10-2011, 06:23 PM
The Broncos are going to take Cam Newton, so it's a moot point.

keep hoping buddy boy. . . :D


:wave:

BroncoNut
03-10-2011, 07:26 PM
Phillip Rivers is absolutely Praying to high hell and heaven and Jay cutler that we take Patrick Peterson. He does not want to see a DT who can actually play football collapse his pocket and or force him right into Doom!

just talked with the guru (HD) on the Peterson pick at no. 2. with Darius and Fairley available, that's and interesting take there young man. good day to you

BroncoNut
03-10-2011, 07:28 PM
The Broncos are going to take Cam Newton, so it's a moot point.
Cam Newton is a media synthetic imo. Bust waiting to happen

HORSEPOWER 56
03-10-2011, 07:42 PM
I posted this is another thread when drafting Peterson at #2 was discussed. I think it is appropriate here, too:

"This argument for why we should draft Peterson "well if you have 2 shutdown CBs, then it helps the pass rush" is like arguing to draft a new QB or RB when your O-line straight sucks. "but, a new QB with a quicker release and better mobility will take less sacks" or "a faster/bigger RB will be able to hit the holes better before they close and will be able to avoid all those defenders in the backfield so he won't have as many negative runs..." or even, "our QB sucks, lets get him another WR to throw to, that should help his inability to read a defense, scramble, and throw accurately..."

FIX THE PROBLEM. Quit avoiding it and trying to wish it away! We have 7 CBs currently on the roster under contract and ONE true 4-3 DT. Can we stop with the Peterson bullshit, please?

topscribe
03-10-2011, 07:52 PM
I posted this is another thread when drafting Peterson at #2 was discussed. I think it is appropriate here, too:

"This argument for why we should draft Peterson "well if you have 2 shutdown CBs, then it helps the pass rush" is like arguing to draft a new QB or RB when your O-line straight sucks. "but, a new QB with a quicker release and better mobility will take less sacks" or "a faster/bigger RB will be able to hit the holes better before they close and will be able to avoid all those defenders in the backfield so he won't have as many negative runs..." or even, "our QB sucks, lets get him another WR to throw to, that should help his inability to read a defense, scramble, and throw accurately..."

FIX THE PROBLEM. Quit avoiding it and trying to wish it away! We have 7 CBs currently on the roster under contract and ONE true 4-3 DT. Can we stop with the Peterson bullshit, please?

I can see arguments both ways on defense, but you make a good point . . .

-----

dogfish
03-10-2011, 07:55 PM
FIX THE PROBLEM. Quit avoiding it and trying to wish it away! We have 7 CBs currently on the roster under contract and ONE true 4-3 DT. Can we stop with the Peterson bullshit, please?

troof. . .

gobroncsnv
03-10-2011, 08:05 PM
I'm thinking this team needs to do better than improve by 2 "coverage" sacks a season... They need to purposefully and specifically improve the pass rush on its own merits. Go straight at it, not dink around.

Dzone
03-10-2011, 08:14 PM
Peterson and Bailey and a rejuvenated Dawkins with Dumervil back and Ayers at DE along with draft picks will result in a better pass rush next year. No doubt about it. Peterson might be the best athlete available

NightTerror218
03-10-2011, 08:19 PM
So when is Fox/Elway combo going to the LSU pro day...i have not heard of them there, only Bama, Texas A&M and Auburn so far

Agent of Orange
03-10-2011, 08:51 PM
Peterson and Bailey and a rejuvenated Dawkins with Dumervil back and Ayers at DE along with draft picks will result in a better pass rush next year. No doubt about it. Peterson might be the best athlete available

When is a defensive lineman ever the "best athlete available"? People keep trying to find excuses to avoid the defensive line.

Agent of Orange
03-10-2011, 08:53 PM
I posted this is another thread when drafting Peterson at #2 was discussed. I think it is appropriate here, too:

"This argument for why we should draft Peterson "well if you have 2 shutdown CBs, then it helps the pass rush" is like arguing to draft a new QB or RB when your O-line straight sucks. "but, a new QB with a quicker release and better mobility will take less sacks" or "a faster/bigger RB will be able to hit the holes better before they close and will be able to avoid all those defenders in the backfield so he won't have as many negative runs..." or even, "our QB sucks, lets get him another WR to throw to, that should help his inability to read a defense, scramble, and throw accurately..."

FIX THE PROBLEM. Quit avoiding it and trying to wish it away! We have 7 CBs currently on the roster under contract and ONE true 4-3 DT. Can we stop with the Peterson bullshit, please?

QFT and to bold the important part.

Traveler
03-10-2011, 10:26 PM
suh is a once a generation talent-- probably rarer, actually. . . a DT that goes all-pro his rookie year? i'm sure it's happened before in the history of the game, but in this era it's unheard of. . . he shouldn't even be counted as a draft prospect-- dude is more like a force of nature. . . gerald mccoy was taken one pick later, and he's a puny baby coompared to suh. . .

if suh is your definition of blue chip, you may never see another blue chip D-lineman in your lifetime. . . downgrading other prospects in comparison to him is equally as useful as trying to measure QB prospects by how well they compare to manning. . .

There's also been talk of Peterson being that rare generational talent too. Can't help it that my version of a blue chip type player would have you believe I'm downgrading other prospects.

Not so. I just firmly believe that Peterson has to be the choice if it comes down to a choice between he and Dareus. As badly as we need interior DL help, there's nothing to say those players can't be found in round two.

Guess my aversion to drafting for need in round one instead of BPA/Value plays into my thought process on this issue.

Traveler
03-10-2011, 10:33 PM
think team....you can have a excellent defense with solid to great players....if the line is solid

we draft peterson we will have two blue chip CBs...playing for a team in the bottom the defense standings and 25th to 32nd in passing

people get the misnotion that if champ and P2 shut down the wrs they are on...we will be great...what about the Tes...its a TE passing world these days...what about a 3 wr set

take away the 2 wrs but give the qb all day to survey ...he and the OC will find mismatches quickly

Let's clarify the bolded portion in regards to my personal view. All I'm advocating is that while I prefer Peterson over Dareus at #2, the team can still address the DL in the second round.

TXBRONC
03-10-2011, 11:15 PM
Peterson and Bailey and a rejuvenated Dawkins with Dumervil back and Ayers at DE along with draft picks will result in a better pass rush next year. No doubt about it. Peterson might be the best athlete available

Our biggest weakness as I see it has been in the middle of defense. Peterson along with Bailey, Dawkins, and Dumervil wouldn't resolve that issue.

gobroncsnv
03-10-2011, 11:19 PM
we still give up way too many rushing yards to think that another stellar CB is our greatest need, and I'd much rather go after improving rushing stats and improve the pass rush by improving the dline.

hamrob
03-10-2011, 11:59 PM
If we happen to sign Johnson from Carolina or Tommie Harris ...then, I think you certainly can go CB at #2. We can still take a pretty darn good Dlineman in the 2nd round.

hamrob
03-11-2011, 12:01 AM
Our biggest weakness as I see it has been in the middle of defense. Peterson along with Bailey, Dawkins, and Dumervil wouldn't resolve that issue.Pick Wilson in the 2nd and sign Tommie Harris. If we did that...you could go ahead and take Peterson or Miller in the 1st. If we trade Orton for extra ammo that would provide more senarios. There's alot that can happen between now and the draft. Let's hope the CBA is taken care of by this weekend!

Northman
03-11-2011, 04:59 AM
Let's clarify the bolded portion in regards to my personal view. All I'm advocating is that while I prefer Peterson over Dareus at #2, the team can still address the DL in the second round.

Which they've done for a decade and failed at. Sooner or later you have to ante up to the top echelon of players when you get the opportunity. To simply keep hoping that the 2nd rate guys will become playmakers is silly.

Traveler
03-11-2011, 07:53 AM
Which they've done for a decade and failed at. Sooner or later you have to ante up to the top echelon of players when you get the opportunity. To simply keep hoping that the 2nd rate guys will become playmakers is silly.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Granted, it's clearly evident the team has done little to address the defensive line fo rmore than a decade through the draft.

I also believe that you should build the team from the OL & DL outward.

What I'm also advocating is since we are picking this high, as Elway has stated many times, they have hit the mark on the #2 overall pick.

While the team has many needs-DL being priority #1- they shouldn't get locked into picking a DLman at that spot just because we need one badly.

If the value and talent isn't there, and someone else is rated higher and is viewed as the more complete player, it's a no brainer what the team should do IMO.

rcsodak
03-11-2011, 08:20 AM
Does blitzing Charles Woodson from anywhere and everywhere on the field help or hurt GB's pass rush?

How about the way NYJ use aggressive man on man coverage so they can blitz the kitchen sink? Help or hurt their pass rush?

More than one way to pop a pimple.
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You're so gross
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rcsodak
03-11-2011, 08:23 AM
Now, Denver has an opportunity to grab a difference maker on the Dline and people still want to risk taking 2nd rate guys hoping they will be gems.
I doubt thatcould happen.
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rcsodak
03-11-2011, 09:15 AM
think team....you can have a excellent defense with solid to great players....if the line is solid

we draft peterson we will have two blue chip CBs...playing for a team in the bottom the defense standings and 25th to 32nd in passing

people get the misnotion that if champ and P2 shut down the wrs they are on...we will be great...what about the Tes...its a TE passing world these days...what about a 3 wr set

take away the 2 wrs but give the qb all day to survey ...he and the OC will find mismatches quickly
32nd v the run. You don't stop the run, you don't stop anything.
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rcsodak
03-11-2011, 09:22 AM
Phillip Rivers is absolutely Praying to high hell and heaven and Jay cutler that we take Patrick Peterson. He does not want to see a DT who can actually play football collapse his pocket and or force him right into Doom!
link?



: )
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rcsodak
03-11-2011, 09:28 AM
There's also been talk of Peterson being that rare generational talent too. Can't help it that my version of a blue chip type player would have you believe I'm downgrading other prospects.

Not so. I just firmly believe that Peterson has to be the choice if it comes down to a choice between he and Dareus. As badly as we need interior DL help, there's nothing to say those players can't be found in round two.

Guess my aversion to drafting for need in round one instead of BPA/Value plays into my thought process on this issue.

There are more successful teams that have good DL's and avg secondarys than the other way around.
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rcsodak
03-11-2011, 09:30 AM
Let's clarify the bolded portion in regards to my personal view. All I'm advocating is that while I prefer Peterson over Dareus at #2, the team can still address the DL in the second round.
They've been addressing the DL in the 2nd rd forever, and the result has been ugly.
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Dzone
03-11-2011, 10:16 AM
Its like having the Sears Christmas toy catalog when you were a kid. You want everything.

LTC Pain
03-11-2011, 10:34 AM
Its like having the Sears Christmas toy catalog when you were a kid. You want everything.


Yes, so true. Take Dareus at #2 and trade both our 2nd round picks to get back in the first round to get Peterson! Situation solved :elefant::D

SOCALORADO.
03-11-2011, 10:40 AM
Yes, so true. Take Dareus at #2 and trade both our 2nd round picks to get back in the first round to get Peterson! Situation solved :elefant::D

If they do this, then they should get JJWatt, they could still get a CB in the
3rd with as much ability and upside as Peterson.
(I am not advocating that DEN should do this)

TXBRONC
03-11-2011, 10:52 AM
Pick Wilson in the 2nd and sign Tommie Harris. If we did that...you could go ahead and take Peterson or Miller in the 1st. If we trade Orton for extra ammo that would provide more scenarios. There's a lot that can happen between now and the draft. Let's hope the CBA is taken care of by this weekend!

I don't know Ham it didn't look like Harris had very good year. His stats were way down from previous years. There are several reasons why his production was down but it would still give me pause about signing him. Even if that happened I still wouldn't take Peterson because I still would want another potentially top flight defensive tackle along side of Harris.

arapaho2
03-11-2011, 11:42 AM
Let's clarify the bolded portion in regards to my personal view. All I'm advocating is that while I prefer Peterson over Dareus at #2, the team can still address the DL in the second round.


we been adressing the dline for years in later rounds.....hows that helped us?

arapaho2
03-11-2011, 11:51 AM
32nd v the run. You don't stop the run, you don't stop anything.
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exactly why peterson does nothing for the defense...we suck at morte than just the sacks or passing...we are dead last in rushing defense...some of these guys hyping peterson ignore that

we need the best value from the #2....peterson may help the secondary..,.perhaps increase us 2 spots with a few coverage sacks... but thats about it

dareus...or fairely...anchor the interior of the dline...that will improve the rush defense...they also create qb pressure and will undoubtably increase our sack numbers greatly

interior dline has the greatest value for us...best athelete in the draft , p2 doesnt

jlarsiii
03-11-2011, 11:55 AM
I see both sides of the argument equally.

We have several needs that will not be fixed in one draft. Maybe we should stop looking at the upcoming draft as our only chance to do so.

I will not be upset if we take a DL with our top pick or the BPA with that pick if they become an all pro player. After all someone picked at #2 should be a pro bowl caliber player.

My greatest hope is that whoever we pick fulfills their potential. I am a firm believer in taking BPA regardless of need because we need to build the overall talent level of the team. For far too long we have taken by need (with offensive minded HCs that always look at offense first) and we need to stop that crap if we are really going to improve.

So if Petersen ranks out the best then take him. If it is Fairley or Dareus or Bowers or Quinn or Miller then you take that person. Just pick someone who can actually f-ing play ball.

topscribe
03-11-2011, 01:09 PM
I see both sides of the argument equally.

We have several needs that will not be fixed in one draft. Maybe we should stop looking at the upcoming draft as our only chance to do so.

I will not be upset if we take a DL with our top pick or the BPA with that pick if they become an all pro player. After all someone picked at #2 should be a pro bowl caliber player.

My greatest hope is that whoever we pick fulfills their potential. I am a firm believer in taking BPA regardless of need because we need to build the overall talent level of the team. For far too long we have taken by need (with offensive minded HCs that always look at offense first) and we need to stop that crap if we are really going to improve.

So if Petersen ranks out the best then take him. If it is Fairley or Dareus or Bowers or Quinn or Miller then you take that person. Just pick someone who can actually f-ing play ball.

I agree to a point. Fox said he believes in the "best player available in a
position of need." I tend to go along with that, and the only way I will depart
from that philosophy is if a player is very clearly heads and shoulders above
anyone else in the draft. That, I feel, fits Peterson, and I suspect that Von
Miller could end up that way.

As far as the rest, if they are going to take one of them, then it must be in
a position of need, and DT ranks at the top there, IMO . . .

-----

dogfish
03-11-2011, 01:48 PM
seriously, this peterson talk just doesn't make any sense!

coverage HASN'T been the problem with this team, and anyone that's watched quarterbacks like jamarcus russell, troy smith and john skelton pick us apart while standing six seconds in the pocket on every play should understand that. . .

and pass coverage hasn't even been the worst problem with our defense. . . last year we ranked 31st (remember folks, there are 32 teams!) in total rushing yards allowed, 31st in average yards per rush against, and dead stinking 32nd last in rushing touchdowns allowed-- by a really wide ****ing margin. . . we gave up 26 rushing TDs last year, the second-worst team allowed 20. . .

:coffee:

but yea, let's continue to fix the D-line with lightly-regarded mid-round prospects because there's that shiny skill position guy with the sexy 40 time that we can't live without (and can't win with, as usual!). . . this is a deep DL draft-- so let's use it as an excuse to avoid a legit attempt at fixing the problem, yet again. . . we have other picks! and if the guy we thought we could get in the second isn't there, we'll just take somebody in the 4th and call it a day. . .

except we don't even have a fourth. . .

don't kid yourselves. . . sure there will be DTs available in the second-- but all the elite run-stoppers will be gone. . . dareus obviously, but look at the 3-4 teams sitting at the end of the round and their specific needs, and tell yourself that green bay, pittsburgh and the jets will all pass on phil taylor. . . yea, dream on-- he and paea aren't running that gauntlet even if they do make it past everybody else. . . most sites also have wilkerson going in the first, which means marvin austin will likely be the only solid DT pick at 36 with any size-- and what if our coaching staff doesn't trust austin?

sure, players like drake nevis and jurrell casey will be available, but those guys are smallish three-techniques. . . jarvis jenkins might fit the bill, i'm not as familair with him-- kendrick elliss will be available, if we want to take a chance on a kid with a history of drug use. . . after that you're looking at reaching for a guy like jerrell powe with a mid-round grade. . .

if we pass on dareus, we're either left hoping that someone falls unexpectedly, or left picking through the leftovers like always. . . just because it's a deep draft for DL doesn't mean that other teams are going to be passing, or that first round caliber prospects are going to be available in the third. . .

so yes, we have other picks-- everybody gets that. . . but this is our chance to set the tone for the next decade-- our chance to get a blue chip interior presence with legit athleticism to go with that size. . . we can set a new tone for the entire organization by committing to physical play. . . we can fill our biggest and most immediate need with a guy that DOESN'T come with a ton of question marks-- a guy with both blue chip physical gifts and polished technique developed under a pro line coach in a pro system. . .

year after year we've invested in the secondary and it hasn't helped-- stop kidding yourselves that this time it's going to be different. . . every year we put new corners opposite champ and say we're going to get more coverage sacks and more picks, and it never happens. . . the law of diminishing returns says you have to invest somewhere else. . .

seriously, we have half-a-dozen corners under contract, including several promising youngsters and an all-pro caliber vet. . . we have a grand total of one defensive tackle on the roster. . . and people still won't consider it a priority! :lol:

come on, somebody explain to me how another DB is going to help us on all those 2nd-and-shorts. . . what do you get if you have a shutdown corner and can't stop the run? the broncos or raiders defense from the past few years. . . :coffee:

peterson is a luxury pick that this team can't afford to make if the goal is to be competitive. . . for a team that desperately needs help right up the middle, dareus is far too good to pass up. . . this is our chance to change the culture, and not continue to settle for hopes and prayers, and i'm optimistic that elway understands that. . .

rcsodak
03-11-2011, 01:54 PM
seriously, this peterson talk just doesn't make any sense!

coverage HASN'T been the problem with this team, and anyone that's watched quarterbacks like jamarcus russell, troy smith and john skelton pick us apart while standing six seconds in the pocket on every play should understand that. . .

and pass coverage hasn't even been the worst problem with our defense. . . last year we ranked 31st (remember folks, there are 32 teams!) in total rushing yards allowed, 31st in average yards per rush against, and dead stinking 32nd last in rushing touchdowns allowed-- by a really wide ****ing margin. . . we gave up 26 rushing TDs last year, the second-worst team allowed 20. . .

:coffee:

but yea, let's continue to fix the D-line with lightly-regarded mid-round prospects because there's that shiny skill position guy with the sexy 40 time that we can't live without (and can't win with, as usual!). . . this is a deep DL draft-- so let's use it as an excuse to avoid a legit attempt at fixing the problem, yet again. . . we have other picks! and if the guy we thought we could get in the second isn't there, we'll just take somebody in the 4th and call it a day. . .

except we don't even have a fourth. . .

don't kid yourselves. . . sure there will be DTs available in the second-- but all the elite run-stoppers will be gone. . . dareus obviously, but look at the 3-4 teams sitting at the end of the round and their specific needs, and tell yourself that green bay, pittsburgh and the jets will all pass on phil taylor. . . yea, dream on-- he and paea aren't running that gauntlet even if they do make it past everybody else. . . most sites also have wilkerson going in the first, which means marvin austin will likely be the only solid DT pick at 36 with any size-- and what if our coaching staff doesn't trust austin?

sure, players like drake nevis and jurrell casey will be available, but those guys are smallish three-techniques. . . jarvis jenkins might fit the bill, i'm not as familair with him-- kendrick elliss will be available, if we want to take a chance on a kid with a history of drug use. . . after that you're looking at reaching for a guy like jerrell powe with a mid-round grade. . .

if we pass on dareus, we're either left hoping that someone falls unexpectedly, or left picking through the leftovers like always. . . just because it's a deep draft for DL doesn't mean that other teams are going to be passing, or that first round caliber prospects are going to be available in the third. . .

so yes, we have other picks-- everybody gets that. . . but this is our chance to set the tone for the next decade-- our chance to get a blue chip interior presence with legit athleticism to go with that size. . . we can set a new tone for the entire organization by committing to physical play. . . we can fill our biggest and most immediate need with a guy that DOESN'T come with a ton of question marks-- a guy with both blue chip physical gifts and polished technique developed under a pro line coach in a pro system. . .

year after year we've invested in the secondary and it hasn't helped-- stop kidding yourselves that this time it's going to be different. . . every year we put new corners opposite champ and say we're going to get more coverage sacks and more picks, and it never happens. . . the law of diminishing returns says you have to invest somewhere else. . .

seriously, we have half-a-dozen young corners under contract, including several promising youngsters and an all-pro caliber vet. . . we have a grand total of one defensive tackle on the roster. . . and people still won't consider it a priority! :lol:

come on, somebody explain to me how another DB is going to help us on all those 2nd-and-shorts. . . what do you get if you have a shutdown corner and can't stop the run? the broncos or raiders defense from the past few years. . . :coffee:

peterson is a luxury pick that this team can't afford to make if the goal is to be competitive. . . for a team that desperately needs help right up the middle, dareus is far too good to pass up. . . this is our chance to change the culture, and not continue to settle for hopes and prayers, and i'm optimistic that elway understands that. . .

Brevity is your friend, ingRed.

:lol:
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SR
03-11-2011, 02:08 PM
Brevity is your friend, ingRed.

:lol:
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:confused:

Northman
03-11-2011, 02:15 PM
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Granted, it's clearly evident the team has done little to address the defensive line fo rmore than a decade through the draft.

I also believe that you should build the team from the OL & DL outward.

What I'm also advocating is since we are picking this high, as Elway has stated many times, they have hit the mark on the #2 overall pick.

While the team has many needs-DL being priority #1- they shouldn't get locked into picking a DLman at that spot just because we need one badly.

If the value and talent isn't there, and someone else is rated higher and is viewed as the more complete player, it's a no brainer what the team should do IMO.

Problem is though Trav that even a guy who is rated high like Peterson can still be a bust. The draft is a crapshoot to begin with but i would much rather take my chances of a bust on a player who can be a difference maker on the DL than i would in the secondary. For me, Denver just doesnt have the luxury anymore to say BPA overall. Just cant do it at this stage of the game. Maybe 3 years ago we had that but not now.

dogfish
03-11-2011, 02:22 PM
besides which, what makes peterson the BPA anyway? what makes him better than dareus?

i must have missed when PP set the SEC record for interceptions, or carried his team to a national championship. . . kid gave up eight catches to julio jones, stop acting like he's unbeatable. . . mike mayock says PP has some stiffness in his hips and may fit better at safety-- just yesterday on NFLN, charles davis said PP excells at press coverage but has questions about his off coverage. . . he's no more bulletproof than anyone else. . .


buffalo took CJ spiller last year because they considered him the BPA and didn't want to reach for need at another position, even though they had lynch and jackson. . . quick, somebody tell me how that worked out?

dogfish
03-11-2011, 02:26 PM
:confused:

:whoknows:

Northman
03-11-2011, 02:35 PM
besides which, what makes peterson the BPA anyway? what makes him better than dareus?

i must have missed when PP set the SEC record for interceptions, or carried his team to a national championship. . . kid gave up eight catches to julio jones, stop acting like he's unbeatable. . . mike mayock says PP has some stiffness in his hips and may fit better at safety-- just yesterday on NFLN, charles davis said PP excells at press coverage but has questions about his off coverage. . . he's no more bulletproof than anyone else. . .


buffalo took CJ spiller last year because they considered him the BPA and didn't want to reach for need at another position, even though they had lynch and jackson. . . quick, somebody tell me how that worked out?

Definitely. Ive constantly showed how he disappeared in the last bowl game. Great players step up in the biggest games on the biggest stage. Fairley completely owned Oregon as they had no answer for him.

Agent of Orange
03-11-2011, 02:39 PM
seriously, this peterson talk just doesn't make any sense!

coverage HASN'T been the problem with this team, and anyone that's watched quarterbacks like jamarcus russell, troy smith and john skelton pick us apart while standing six seconds in the pocket on every play should understand that. . .

and pass coverage hasn't even been the worst problem with our defense. . . last year we ranked 31st (remember folks, there are 32 teams!) in total rushing yards allowed, 31st in average yards per rush against, and dead stinking 32nd last in rushing touchdowns allowed-- by a really wide ****ing margin. . . we gave up 26 rushing TDs last year, the second-worst team allowed 20. . .

:coffee:

but yea, let's continue to fix the D-line with lightly-regarded mid-round prospects because there's that shiny skill position guy with the sexy 40 time that we can't live without (and can't win with, as usual!). . . this is a deep DL draft-- so let's use it as an excuse to avoid a legit attempt at fixing the problem, yet again. . . we have other picks! and if the guy we thought we could get in the second isn't there, we'll just take somebody in the 4th and call it a day. . .

except we don't even have a fourth. . .

don't kid yourselves. . . sure there will be DTs available in the second-- but all the elite run-stoppers will be gone. . . dareus obviously, but look at the 3-4 teams sitting at the end of the round and their specific needs, and tell yourself that green bay, pittsburgh and the jets will all pass on phil taylor. . . yea, dream on-- he and paea aren't running that gauntlet even if they do make it past everybody else. . . most sites also have wilkerson going in the first, which means marvin austin will likely be the only solid DT pick at 36 with any size-- and what if our coaching staff doesn't trust austin?

sure, players like drake nevis and jurrell casey will be available, but those guys are smallish three-techniques. . . jarvis jenkins might fit the bill, i'm not as familair with him-- kendrick elliss will be available, if we want to take a chance on a kid with a history of drug use. . . after that you're looking at reaching for a guy like jerrell powe with a mid-round grade. . .

if we pass on dareus, we're either left hoping that someone falls unexpectedly, or left picking through the leftovers like always. . . just because it's a deep draft for DL doesn't mean that other teams are going to be passing, or that first round caliber prospects are going to be available in the third. . .

so yes, we have other picks-- everybody gets that. . . but this is our chance to set the tone for the next decade-- our chance to get a blue chip interior presence with legit athleticism to go with that size. . . we can set a new tone for the entire organization by committing to physical play. . . we can fill our biggest and most immediate need with a guy that DOESN'T come with a ton of question marks-- a guy with both blue chip physical gifts and polished technique developed under a pro line coach in a pro system. . .

year after year we've invested in the secondary and it hasn't helped-- stop kidding yourselves that this time it's going to be different. . . every year we put new corners opposite champ and say we're going to get more coverage sacks and more picks, and it never happens. . . the law of diminishing returns says you have to invest somewhere else. . .

seriously, we have half-a-dozen corners under contract, including several promising youngsters and an all-pro caliber vet. . . we have a grand total of one defensive tackle on the roster. . . and people still won't consider it a priority! :lol:

come on, somebody explain to me how another DB is going to help us on all those 2nd-and-shorts. . . what do you get if you have a shutdown corner and can't stop the run? the broncos or raiders defense from the past few years. . . :coffee:

peterson is a luxury pick that this team can't afford to make if the goal is to be competitive. . . for a team that desperately needs help right up the middle, dareus is far too good to pass up. . . this is our chance to change the culture, and not continue to settle for hopes and prayers, and i'm optimistic that elway understands that. . .

Im starting to wonder if there are some homosexual tendencies with people who keep talking about taking a DB over a defensive linemen. It seems like people just want the sexy player who looks better in jeans.

And lets also not forget the matter of having a lot of payroll tied up in DBs, instead of spread around or concentrated where it matters most.

Agent of Orange
03-11-2011, 02:41 PM
Definitely. Ive constantly showed how he disappeared in the last bowl game. Great players step up in the biggest games on the biggest stage. Fairley completely owned Oregon as they had no answer for him.

Fairley was big against Alabama too. The sack/fumble as Alabama was about to score was the turning point of the game for Auburn.

SR
03-11-2011, 02:42 PM
Im starting to wonder if there are some homosexual tendencies with people who keep talking about taking a DB over a defensive linemen. It seems like people just want the sexy player who looks better in jeans.

And lets also not forget the matter of having a lot of payroll tied up in DBs, instead of spread around or concentrated where it matters most.

Only a homosexual would make a comment like that.

Agent of Orange
03-11-2011, 02:46 PM
Only a homosexual would make a comment like that.

Wow, I haven't heard the old "it takes one to know one" comeback since grade school. Either you're comeback retarded or you're still in grade school.


If you're going to try to zing someone, at least do better than the work of an extreme novice.

TXBRONC
03-11-2011, 02:53 PM
I see both sides of the argument equally.

We have several needs that will not be fixed in one draft. Maybe we should stop looking at the upcoming draft as our only chance to do so.

I will not be upset if we take a DL with our top pick or the BPA with that pick if they become an all pro player. After all someone picked at #2 should be a pro bowl caliber player.

My greatest hope is that whoever we pick fulfills their potential. I am a firm believer in taking BPA regardless of need because we need to build the overall talent level of the team. For far too long we have taken by need (with offensive minded HCs that always look at offense first) and we need to stop that crap if we are really going to improve.

So if Petersen ranks out the best then take him. If it is Fairley or Dareus or Bowers or Quinn or Miller then you take that person. Just pick someone who can actually f-ing play ball.

If Peterson turns out to be an all pro for the next decade but we're still struggling to win games then what good was that pick? Having Champ in his prime with sub par front seven proved to be a kick in balls

Nomad
03-11-2011, 03:46 PM
seriously, this peterson talk just doesn't make any sense!

. .

It makes complete sense for me.....it means more LSU fans migrating to the boards:D!

As much as I'd like to keep rooting for Peterson, I have to go with Dareus or Fairley with my #2 pick. To this day, I'm still butthurt for passing on Ngata....I know get over it and go have a beer which I'm in AK Amber heaven!!:D

Northman
03-11-2011, 04:22 PM
It makes complete sense for me.....it means more LSU fans migrating to the boards:D!



No no no, please. Lets not have that. Right now we are running out of Gaytor Spray as it is. :lol:

SR
03-11-2011, 04:24 PM
Wow, I haven't heard the old "it takes one to know one" comeback since grade school. Either you're comeback retarded or you're still in grade school.


If you're going to try to zing someone, at least do better than the work of an extreme novice.

:yawn:

Agent of Orange
03-11-2011, 04:27 PM
:yawn:

Not a surprising response. It's as substantive as a lot of your other posts.

SR
03-11-2011, 04:29 PM
Not a surprising response. It's as substantive as a lot of your other posts.

I do what I can. I'm glad you know me so well.

Agent of Orange
03-11-2011, 04:31 PM
I do what I can. I'm glad you know me so well.

And I continue to lower my expectations.

topscribe
03-11-2011, 04:32 PM
I do what I can. I'm glad you know me so well.

Looks as if you're going to have to write at a lower level, SR, if you hope to
please some of the posters here . . .

-----

SR
03-11-2011, 04:32 PM
And I continue to lower my expectations.

Get 'em really low. I'll settle for bottom dweller in your books. When I reach that status, pleae let me know. Your expectations matter that much to me.

SR
03-11-2011, 04:33 PM
Looks as if you're going to have to write at a lower level, SR, if you hope to
please some of the posters here . . .

-----

It's okay Topper. Despite me being in the Air Force, I don't aim that high.

Agent of Orange
03-11-2011, 04:40 PM
Get 'em really low. I'll settle for bottom dweller in your books. When I reach that status, pleae let me know. Your expectations matter that much to me.

Its kind of funny that you claim to not care, yet you've responded to my posts numerous times. In fact, this back and forth started with your grade school comeback.

Oh, but right, you don't care. LOL. Poser.

SR
03-11-2011, 04:42 PM
Its kind of funny that you claim to not care, yet you've responded to my posts numerous times. In fact, this back and forth started with your grade school comeback.

Oh, but right, you don't care. LOL. Poser.

Really, it just boils down to boredom. That's it.

Agent of Orange
03-11-2011, 04:44 PM
Really, it just boils down to boredom. That's it.

Right. Keep responding to tell me how little you care.

Ha. You ninja-edited.

SR
03-11-2011, 04:45 PM
Right. Keep responding to tell me how little you care.

Ha. You ninja-edited.

I did ninja-edit. I really don't care though. I promise. I'm actually just bored enough at work to respond to people's posts that I don't care about in threads I don't care about.

Agent of Orange
03-11-2011, 04:47 PM
I did ninja-edit. I really don't care though. I promise. I'm actually just bored enough at work to respond to people's posts that I don't care about in threads I don't care about.

Fascinating. Good to know.

BroncoNut
03-11-2011, 06:29 PM
Wow, I haven't heard the old "it takes one to know one" comeback since grade school. Either you're comeback retarded or you're still in grade school.


If you're going to try to zing someone, at least do better than the work of an extreme novice.

SR is in grade school. Take it easy on him, he is just a kid

bcbronc
03-11-2011, 07:03 PM
If Peterson turns out to be an all pro for the next decade but we're still struggling to win games then what good was that pick? Having Champ in his prime with sub par front seven proved to be a kick in balls

People keep saying thisn but is it actually true. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we put up some top 5 defences and make it to the AFCCG with Champ in his prime? Was that because of the DL dominance the Browncos gave us? Or the torrid pass rush of our LB core?

In fact, just two seasons ago, didn't we have an at least respectable defence?

We've used 1st round picks recwntly on Moss and Ayers and a 2nd rounder on Crowder, so let's stop pretending we've given the DL zero attention. Problem is, at least two of those guys busted and the third was used out of position. We can't afford another Jarvis Moss at #2.

Truth be known, if Elway called me right this minute to make our pick, I'd take Dareus. But hopefully Elway et al have watches more tape than I have and are privy to info I don't have access to. Great defences have playmakers at all 3 levels, and if the FO ranks Peterson at the top of their board, I want them to take the guy they see as the best player at a position of need (and make no mistake, S is a huge need for us) rather than force an inferior prospect into that slot because he's a DL. In a perfect world, Dareus ranks as BPA on our board. But if he's not we need upgerades across the roster.
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dogfish
03-11-2011, 07:21 PM
People keep saying thisn but is it actually true. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we put up some top 5 defences and make it to the AFCCG with Champ in his prime? Was that because of the DL dominance the Browncos gave us? Or the torrid pass rush of our LB core?

In fact, just two seasons ago, didn't we have an at least respectable defence?

We've used 1st round picks recwntly on Moss and Ayers and a 2nd rounder on Crowder, so let's stop pretending we've given the DL zero attention. Problem is, at least two of those guys busted and the third was used out of position. We can't afford another Jarvis Moss at #2.

Truth be known, if Elway called me right this minute to make our pick, I'd take Dareus. But hopefully Elway et al have watches more tape than I have and are privy to info I don't have access to. Great defences have playmakers at all 3 levels, and if the FO ranks Peterson at the top of their board, I want them to take the guy they see as the best player at a position of need (and make no mistake, S is a huge need for us) rather than force an inferior prospect into that slot because he's a DL. In a perfect world, Dareus ranks as BPA on our board. But if he's not we need upgerades across the roster.
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the '05 defense was built on two things-- a D-line that was stout against the run, and all-out mad dog blitzing. . . rex ryan couldn't have dialed up more blitzes than we ran that year-- hell, i start to tear up just thinking about it. . .

i doubt it'll ever happen here again-- highly unlikely under the inherently conservative fox. . . so that model should just be thrown out the window-- it can't be duplicated unless we get a borderline-sociopathically aggressive DC and a coach with the balls to turn him loose. . .

and while we did draft the guys you mentioned, none of 'em top 270 pounds. . . and they were all ends-- this franchise hasn't drafted a legit stud DT since trevor freakin' pryce back in, what '98 or '99? it's time-- way, waaaay past time, actually. . . unless they have peterson rated heads and tails better than any other player in the draft (which i don't buy for a second), then need and value dovetail perfectly with the monster tackle. . .

TXBRONC
03-11-2011, 07:35 PM
People keep saying thisn but is it actually true. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we put up some top 5 defences and make it to the AFCCG with Champ in his prime? Was that because of the DL dominance the Browncos gave us? Or the torrid pass rush of our LB core?

In fact, just two seasons ago, didn't we have an at least respectable defence?

We've used 1st round picks recwntly on Moss and Ayers and a 2nd rounder on Crowder, so let's stop pretending we've given the DL zero attention. Problem is, at least two of those guys busted and the third was used out of position. We can't afford another Jarvis Moss at #2.

Truth be known, if Elway called me right this minute to make our pick, I'd take Dareus. But hopefully Elway et al have watches more tape than I have and are privy to info I don't have access to. Great defences have playmakers at all 3 levels, and if the FO ranks Peterson at the top of their board, I want them to take the guy they see as the best player at a position of need (and make no mistake, S is a huge need for us) rather than force an inferior prospect into that slot because he's a DL. In a perfect world, Dareus ranks as BPA on our board. But if he's not we need upgerades across the roster.
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So what we've been good on a couple of occasions over the last ten years while Bailey was in his prime we still had the constant problem of getting to the quarterback. In 2005 we manufactured pressure by blitzing that eventually came to bite us in the ass in AFCCG that you referred too. Also three out of the last four years our defense has given up 400 plus points. That being case I'll stand by what I said. It's been proven several times defenses can win championships in this League with an a great front seven and an average secondary. Like Dog said top tier defensive back is luxury that we can't afford right now.

SR
03-11-2011, 08:15 PM
SR is in grade school. Take it easy on him, he is just a kid

True story.

bcbronc
03-11-2011, 09:17 PM
the '05 defense was built on two things-- a D-line that was stout against the run, and all-out mad dog blitzing. . . rex ryan couldn't have dialed up more blitzes than we ran that year-- hell, i start to tear up just thinking about it. . .

ah, the memories. :cheers:

you do need corners that can at least take away the slant though, even with that kind of defense.


i doubt it'll ever happen here again-- highly unlikely under the inherently conservative fox. . . so that model should just be thrown out the window-- it can't be duplicated unless we get a borderline-sociopathically aggressive DC and a coach with the balls to turn him loose. . .

Allen's from a different tree though, one that does blitz. and get takeaways. Fox seems like the kind of coach that expects his coordinators to do their thing, not his, so we'll see.

both Fox and Allen have a background in DB. Allen will probably want a take-away defense, which means you have to have playmakers in the secondary. Champ and Peterson can split the field in half, and actually make QBs pay when Doom makes them hurry.


and while we did draft the guys you mentioned, none of 'em top 270 pounds. . . and they were all ends-- this franchise hasn't drafted a legit stud DT since trevor freakin' pryce back in, what '98 or '99? it's time-- way, waaaay past time, actually. . . unless they have peterson rated heads and tails better than any other player in the draft (which i don't buy for a second), then need and value dovetail perfectly with the monster tackle. . .

maybe Fox sees Vickerson as his monster tackle? He's certainly big enough and was a (dimly) shining light in our front seven last season. He's 28, so just entering his prime.

Fox got Kris Jenkins in the second round at 44. This is the kind of draft where 36 could get you the best DL of the bunch five years from now. Someone in the know needs to put together a list of 'guaranteed' non-DL picks in the top 35 so we can get an idea of what kind of options will be available at 36.

Fox's history suggests he prioritizes the DL. if he has any input in roster decisions, I'm comfortable DL will FINALLY get the respect it deserves on the draft board. That's why imo if the FO sees Peterson as a Champ Bailey level player, they need to take him.


So what we've been good on a couple of occasions over the last ten years while Bailey was in his prime we still had the constant problem of getting to the quarterback. In 2005 we manufactured pressure by blitzing that eventually came to bite us in the ass in AFCCG that you referred too. Also three out of the last four years our defense has given up 400 plus points. That being case I'll stand by what I said. It's been proven several times defenses can win championships in this League with an a great front seven and an average secondary. Like Dog said top tier defensive back is luxury that we can't afford right now.

the thing with the defensive secondary, Champ was all alone. Lynch was great, but as an in the box safety, not a ball hawk. Same with Dawkins. on the other side of Champ, and beside Lynch/Dawkins, it's pretty much been dog meat (no offense dog). It's easy to stay away from Champ when the other side is so weak. Having two HOF DBs splitting the field means you can't just throw away from champ. (Obviously that assumes PP makes his potential, but that's true of every draft pick.)

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees we need to improve our front 7. that's a no brainer and not a counterpoint to drafting PP. The #2 pick alone is not going to take us from giving up 400 plus points to being dominant. or even respectable. It's one piece of many that all need to reinforce each other. you can't have a great secondary without having a pass rush, but a good secondary can help a good pash rush become a great one. And a good secondary can take advantage of pressure to get turnovers, which is how you get a great DEFENSE.

It's not about having a great DL. that's a means to an end. it's about having a great DEFENSE. find me one great defense without a great S. It just doesn't happen. McBath, if he stays healthy, good be a solid starter. But I don't see greatness. Bruton, I do see greatness...as a special teamer. Don't really see a starter at S though. For all the talk about how great the Steelers, Ravens, etc defenses are, they don't have top 5 picks on their DL. They just have playmakers at every level.

Dumervil and (hopefully) Ayers will provide pressure, especially in nickel situations. The rest of the front seven needs to be built around them. And it has to be an every-year commitment, not just #2 and done, or we're not going to have the DL I want anyway. Around the league, most of the best DL in the league aren't top 5 picks. #2 has to be the best defensive playmaker, wherever he plays.

unless it's Von Miller. I puke at the thought of drafting a WILL with all the holes on our defense.

Traveler
03-11-2011, 10:07 PM
They've been addressing the DL in the 2nd rd forever, and the result has been ugly.
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Same can be said of their recent DL attempts in the 1st round too. That's what happens when teams draft for need much of the time.

Northman
03-12-2011, 10:17 AM
People keep saying thisn but is it actually true. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we put up some top 5 defences and make it to the AFCCG with Champ in his prime? Was that because of the DL dominance the Browncos gave us? Or the torrid pass rush of our LB core?



Oh, its true. Its not just with the Broncos either. Yes, the Browncos were overrated but they were also more effective than what we have had in quite a while on the Dline. While Charles Woodson is great, he isnt the reason why the Pack's defense became top 5. Ive already pointed to the reasons for that by doing a little research. Having great DB's is great, but its only as effective as the great Dline and LB core to go along with it and CREATE the opportunities for the DB's to make plays.

dogfish
03-12-2011, 01:50 PM
besides which, what makes peterson the BPA anyway? what makes him better than dareus?

i must have missed when PP set the SEC record for interceptions, or carried his team to a national championship. . . kid gave up eight catches to julio jones, stop acting like he's unbeatable. . . mike mayock says PP has some stiffness in his hips and may fit better at safety-- just yesterday on NFLN, charles davis said PP excells at press coverage but has questions about his off coverage. . . he's no more bulletproof than anyone else. . .


buffalo took CJ spiller last year because they considered him the BPA and didn't want to reach for need at another position, even though they had lynch and jackson. . . quick, somebody tell me how that worked out?

alrighty then. . . don't take it from me. . .


The best draft analyst in the business has revealed his first big board, and it has a surprising name at the top.

Mike Mayock of NFL Network ranks Alabama defensive tackle Marcell Dareus as the best player in the 2011 Draft. Mayock stresses that his top-32 rankings, revealed on NFL.com, are not a Mock Draft.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/03/12/mayock-ranks-marcell-dareus-as-his-top-overall-player/

BAM!

now quit telling me we have to have the cornerback because he's the supposed best player available. . .

Northman
03-12-2011, 01:53 PM
alrighty then. . . don't take it from me. . .



http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/03/12/mayock-ranks-marcell-dareus-as-his-top-overall-player/

BAM!

now quit telling me we have to have the cornerback because he's the supposed best player available. . .


Damn, and here i thought we were going to take a punter at #2. :tsk:

So disappointed.

TXBRONC
03-12-2011, 01:55 PM
ah, the memories. :cheers:

you do need corners that can at least take away the slant though, even with that kind of defense.



Allen's from a different tree though, one that does blitz. and get takeaways. Fox seems like the kind of coach that expects his coordinators to do their thing, not his, so we'll see.

both Fox and Allen have a background in DB. Allen will probably want a take-away defense, which means you have to have playmakers in the secondary. Champ and Peterson can split the field in half, and actually make QBs pay when Doom makes them hurry.



maybe Fox sees Vickerson as his monster tackle? He's certainly big enough and was a (dimly) shining light in our front seven last season. He's 28, so just entering his prime.

Fox got Kris Jenkins in the second round at 44. This is the kind of draft where 36 could get you the best DL of the bunch five years from now. Someone in the know needs to put together a list of 'guaranteed' non-DL picks in the top 35 so we can get an idea of what kind of options will be available at 36.

Fox's history suggests he prioritizes the DL. if he has any input in roster decisions, I'm comfortable DL will FINALLY get the respect it deserves on the draft board. That's why imo if the FO sees Peterson as a Champ Bailey level player, they need to take him.



the thing with the defensive secondary, Champ was all alone. Lynch was great, but as an in the box safety, not a ball hawk. Same with Dawkins. on the other side of Champ, and beside Lynch/Dawkins, it's pretty much been dog meat (no offense dog). It's easy to stay away from Champ when the other side is so weak. Having two HOF DBs splitting the field means you can't just throw away from champ. (Obviously that assumes PP makes his potential, but that's true of every draft pick.)

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees we need to improve our front 7. that's a no brainer and not a counterpoint to drafting PP. The #2 pick alone is not going to take us from giving up 400 plus points to being dominant. or even respectable. It's one piece of many that all need to reinforce each other. you can't have a great secondary without having a pass rush, but a good secondary can help a good pash rush become a great one. And a good secondary can take advantage of pressure to get turnovers, which is how you get a great DEFENSE.

It's not about having a great DL. that's a means to an end. it's about having a great DEFENSE. find me one great defense without a great S. It just doesn't happen. McBath, if he stays healthy, good be a solid starter. But I don't see greatness. Bruton, I do see greatness...as a special teamer. Don't really see a starter at S though. For all the talk about how great the Steelers, Ravens, etc defenses are, they don't have top 5 picks on their DL. They just have playmakers at every level.

Dumervil and (hopefully) Ayers will provide pressure, especially in nickel situations. The rest of the front seven needs to be built around them. And it has to be an every-year commitment, not just #2 and done, or we're not going to have the DL I want anyway. Around the league, most of the best DL in the league aren't top 5 picks. #2 has to be the best defensive playmaker, wherever he plays.

unless it's Von Miller. I puke at the thought of drafting a WILL with all the holes on our defense.

I think what is lost on someone you advocating for Peterson is that you can find solid secondary help deeper in just about every draft you wont find such when it comes to defensive linemen. That is just simple fact of life.

No one that I know of is saying that just drafting one top notch defensive line is all we need and then we quite. What seems to be lost is the fact you just not going to findthe highest caliber defensive line later in draft very often. Top notch defensive backs on the other hand are found a much greater frequency later in the first round and beyond.

You absolutely have it backwards. It has been proven over and over that a great pass rush can cover up a multitude of sins in the secondary and even win championships with it. What's this about you can win a championship without a great safety? Don't think so. If I'm not mistaken the team with all world safety lost the Super Bowl this year did they not?

You also think taking some defensive tackle in the 2nd just might be the best pick five years down the road just because Kris Jenkins turned out to be solid. Jenkins is a not the norm. Again five down the road? Champ is already 32 years old. Good grief that's hell of a big assumption that Bailey will last that long. Lets say Bailey moves to safety it extends his career now we have another hole at corner. What's your solution take another corner back because he might be the best player on the board. No thanks.

The thought of taking some flakey ass corner back makes me want to puke.
Btw when you mentioned having great safety you might to check where they been taken. I will guarantee you it wasn't in the top five, in fact two of the very best were best weren't even taken in the top ten.

Finally, taking a defensive tackle would be only one piece of the puzzle, I think everyone understands that and since that's case taking Peterson would be the same thing. Just one piece of the puzzle but not nearly as important defensive line atp.

decarlo1
03-14-2011, 03:01 PM
I went to LSU - if Peterson comes here I'll be so geeked..

topscribe
03-14-2011, 03:10 PM
I went to LSU - if Peterson comes here I'll be so geeked..

At least, if he does come, no one well be able to say you followed him here.

BTW, welcome to the board! :welcome:

-----

Agent of Orange
03-14-2011, 03:20 PM
alrighty then. . . don't take it from me. . .



http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/03/12/mayock-ranks-marcell-dareus-as-his-top-overall-player/

BAM!

now quit telling me we have to have the cornerback because he's the supposed best player available. . .

I respect Mayock but in a lot of the analysis I hear from Mayock involves terms like "scheme diverse". While, to Mayock, it may add value if a guy can play in multiple schemes (because he's thinking of breadth of their appeal), that doesn't necessarily mean as much to an individual team. Until Mayock says that Dareus can generate pressure like Fairley, I'd still rather have Fairley.

BTW, I have been out of touch lately. Has Fox committed to a 4-3 or a 3-4? Or did hiring Allen pretty much decide that we're back to the 4-3?

SOCALORADO.
03-14-2011, 03:56 PM
I respect Mayock but in a lot of the analysis I hear from Mayock involves terms like "scheme diverse". While, to Mayock, it may add value if a guy can play in multiple schemes (because he's thinking of breadth of their appeal), that doesn't necessarily mean as much to an individual team. Until Mayock says that Dareus can generate pressure like Fairley, I'd still rather have Fairley.

BTW, I have been out of touch lately. Has Fox committed to a 4-3 or a 3-4? Or did hiring Allen pretty much decide that we're back to the 4-3?

4-3

arapaho2
03-14-2011, 04:29 PM
the '05 defense was built on two things-- a D-line that was stout against the run, and all-out mad dog blitzing. . . rex ryan couldn't have dialed up more blitzes than we ran that year-- hell, i start to tear up just thinking about it. . .

i doubt it'll ever happen here again-- highly unlikely under the inherently conservative fox. . . so that model should just be thrown out the window-- it can't be duplicated unless we get a borderline-sociopathically aggressive DC and a coach with the balls to turn him loose. . .

and while we did draft the guys you mentioned, none of 'em top 270 pounds. . . and they were all ends-- this franchise hasn't drafted a legit stud DT since trevor freakin' pryce back in, what '98 or '99? it's time-- way, waaaay past time, actually. . . unless they have peterson rated heads and tails better than any other player in the draft (which i don't buy for a second), then need and value dovetail perfectly with the monster tackle. . .


to follow up

the 05 defense was 29th against the pass...2nd against the run...3rd in scoreing...6th in ints...7th in forced fumbles...26th in sacks

we were good because we stopped the run, stiffened in the red zone...and teams couldnt score on us...none of that applies to the dline we have this year

dogfish
03-14-2011, 05:36 PM
LSU cornerback Patrick Peterson performed so well at the Combine that he didn’t perform in any timed drills at his Pro Day Monday.

He did participate in position drills in front of Panthers coach Ron Rivera, Steelers coach Mike Tomlin, and numerous other scouts from around the league.

Rivera got a close up look at Peterson Sunday night when he had dinner with the potential No. 1 overall pick, according to the New Orleans Times-Picayune.

The Broncos did not send John Elway, G.M. Brian Xanders, or coach John Fox to the Pro Day. They will have Peterson in town for a visit. (Peterson also will visit Carolina, Tennessee, and Arizona.)

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/03/14/panthers-dine-with-patrick-peterson-who-sits-on-combine-times-at-pro-day/

NightTerror218
03-15-2011, 11:11 AM
Fox and Elway did not attend LSU pro day so I would assume that means they are not interested

SR
03-15-2011, 11:30 AM
They're bringing him in for a private workout...

NightTerror218
03-15-2011, 11:33 AM
They're bringing him in for a private workout...


Where did you read that?

SR
03-15-2011, 11:34 AM
Where did you read that?

I'm sorry, they're bringing him in for a "visit". It's in post above your "not interested" post.

rcsodak
03-15-2011, 12:06 PM
:whoknows:
:elefant:
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rcsodak
03-15-2011, 12:07 PM
Only a homosexual would make a comment like that.
:hi5:
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rcsodak
03-15-2011, 12:12 PM
I do what I can. I'm glad you know me so well.
Eh.....just his standard reply when he gets dumbfounded. :lol:
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rcsodak
03-15-2011, 12:22 PM
Same can be said of their recent DL attempts in the 1st round too. That's what happens when teams draft for need much of the time.
I agree....plus having inept talent evaluators doesn't help matters.
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rcsodak
03-15-2011, 12:24 PM
alrighty then. . . don't take it from me. . .



http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/03/12/mayock-ranks-marcell-dareus-as-his-top-overall-player/

BAM!

now quit telling me we have to have the cornerback because he's the supposed best player available. . .
But....but.....but MLombardi had PP #1!
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rcsodak
03-15-2011, 12:33 PM
I'm sorry, they're bringing him in for a "visit". It's in post above your "not interested" post.PP has announced he'll be honored to be at the draft. I like the kid....too bad denver doesn't go later in the 1st. #2 is just too early, imo.
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NightTerror218
03-16-2011, 04:06 PM
I just looked at ESPN draft board and they have Fairley at #8 now....if we could trade down and still get him and more picks i would be happy.....I wonder they will look at Kelvin Sheppard in the 2nd or Colin McCarthy to fill the ILB position....I am really thinking we are going to draft 2 DL and 1 OL in first 3 picks and get TE, RB and LB later in the draft

LTC Pain
03-16-2011, 04:56 PM
I just looked at ESPN draft board and they have Fairley at #8 now....if we could trade down and still get him and more picks i would be happy.....I wonder they will look at Kelvin Sheppard in the 2nd or Colin McCarthy to fill the ILB position....I am really thinking we are going to draft 2 DL and 1 OL in first 3 picks and get TE, RB and LB later in the draft

First three picks I agree with you. RB and LB depth in the later rounds, yes, but also OL depth. I think their are enough quality FA TEs that the Broncos will go after one, vice the draft. We could use another CB too but don't have enough draft picks to get a RB, LB, TE and CB after the 3rd round :(

Agent of Orange
03-17-2011, 04:17 PM
I just looked at ESPN draft board and they have Fairley at #8 now....if we could trade down and still get him and more picks i would be happy.....I wonder they will look at Kelvin Sheppard in the 2nd or Colin McCarthy to fill the ILB position....I am really thinking we are going to draft 2 DL and 1 OL in first 3 picks and get TE, RB and LB later in the draft

Didnt ESPN also have Clauson going in the top 10 last year?

TXBRONC
03-17-2011, 05:05 PM
Didnt ESPN also have Clauson going in the top 10 last year?

I don't remember.

TXBRONC
03-17-2011, 05:08 PM
First three picks I agree with you. RB and LB depth in the later rounds, yes, but also OL depth. I think their are enough quality FA TEs that the Broncos will go after one, vice the draft. We could use another CB too but don't have enough draft picks to get a RB, LB, TE and CB after the 3rd round :(

Personally I think I would rather draft a tight like the kid out of Tennesse.

rcsodak
03-17-2011, 05:44 PM
Personally I think I would rather draft a tight like the kid out of Tennesse.green out of nevada. Grades out as a 1, but will go later, per PKirwin.
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TXBRONC
03-18-2011, 08:09 AM
green out of nevada. Grades out as a 1, but will go later, per PKirwin.
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Green is in Mayock's top five tight end prospects but kid out Tennessee grades out as his top prospect.

rcsodak
03-18-2011, 08:17 AM
Green is in Mayock's top five tight end prospects but kid out Tennessee grades out as his top prospect.
Right, but if you want a te, are you going to grab one early or grab later? I'd hope the latter, and green killed at the combine. Upside?
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