Continued Discussion With PainterDave

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Top.. I know Orton can play... Not saying he can't.

But those 3 games were also 3 LOSSES.

Deal is... if he is injured to the point that he can't be effective...
he shoulda taken himself out. Selfish charactor - lack of leadership.

The defense DOES get inspired by the QB.... or UNINSPIRED.
Every body keeps saying Orton cant be held accountable for losses..
because of the o-line, RB's and poor DEFENSE....
we have heard this over and over... the team losses.
I get it.. the team.

but, when Tebow goes in and the defense steps up their game...
along with the offense.. why is that not attributed to Tebow's
LEADERSHIP and EXAMPLE?

Team dynamics are part of that "intangible" factor we hear about.

Do you thiunk Champ signed on for another hitch to play with ORTON?

I remember him saying he was excited to play with TEBOW.

Like I said... Orton can play.. I hope he does well with another team...
but it is time here to win with the kid. To move forward, not backwards.

Well, the entire FO has seemed to imply that they are not yet entirely sure
whether they can win with Tebow. The only people I have seen who are all
that sure of that are posters on these boards, and they don't run the Broncos
organization.

And, no, Champ didn't sign up to play with Orton. Champ signed up to play
with the Broncos. So he made the complimentary comment toward Tebow.
Did he make any negative comments toward Orton? Champ plays defense.
The QBs play offense. I believe Champ would tell you his main concern is the
defense . . . after all, by far the biggest failure last year was the defense,
not Orton. I believe Champ would tell you that.

Even on offense, the running game finished near the bottom of the league,
while, until his injuries, Orton was on a pace for 4,900 yards, 29 TDs, and a
96.0 QBR, while DVOA had him ranked #2 and DYAR #6. So you tell me where
the failure was on offense.

And when a QB goes through three games, passing for 860 yards with 8 TDs
against 1 INT and achieves a 105.3 QBR, and all three are STILL losses, are
you going to tell me the QB is at fault there? Really?

And now, because the defense stepped up, you are automatically crediting
that to Tebow. Okay. That's a pretty shallow way to analyze it -- not taking
into account any other factors -- but okay.

That fact is, when Orton first came to the Broncos, he was one of the
winningest QBs in the game. So he has shown he can win with a DECENT
supporting cast. The FO has indicated they haven't been persuaded Tebow
can yet win.

I am rooting for a proven QB. You are rooting for one who has yet to prove
anything. If Orton does go down the road, then, as a Broncos fan, I dearly
hope you're right. Because, if not, it will be too late . . .

P.S. What I am really rooting for is a winning organization. And I believe that
neither of us really cares who is behind center if that happens. If Tebow is
there and the Broncos win, then I am a Tebow fan. Ditto Orton. That's where
it's at, as they say, isn't it?

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[PAINTERDAVE]

This whole discussion has been rehashed over and over.

Deal is.. for me and many others..
including nearly every other fan I meet who is NOT on these boards...
we want to know what Tebow has...
and either go forward with that or get a new QB to build around.

Seriously.. when I tell a guy on the street that Orton may start...
he freaks out. Very FEW people in Denver think Kyle will be back.

If Tebow is crap... I am all for moving on.

Top... you and I will have to agree to disagree about Kyle.

I don't have a driving need to slam Orton.
I just don't see him as a viable QB to build around.
We are in a rebuilding mode.
Time to go forward.

If it aint Tebow we need to know.

Orton's one year contract tells me he is gone soon.

I personaly think Tebow is gonna pan out...
I beleive in 2011...
Tebow can win as many games as Orton could with this team.
but to find out... he needs to start.

[PAINTERDAVE]

And.. I think if he is given a fair shot...
Tebow will earn the starting job in competition.

I think Tim would prefer to earn the job rather than have it handed to him.

I also think that those last 3 games Tebow played showed a lot...
and can not be discounted

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This whole discussion has been rehashed over and over.

Deal is.. for me and many others..
including nearly every other fan I meet who is NOT on these boards...
we want to know what Tebow has...
and either go forward with that or get a new QB to build around.

Seriously.. when I tell a guy on the street that Orton may start...
he freaks out. Very FEW people in Denver think Kyle will be back.

If Tebow is crap... I am all for moving on.

Top... you and I will have to agree to disagree about Kyle.

I don't have a driving need to slam Orton.
I just don't see him as a viable QB to build around.
We are in a rebuilding mode.
Time to go forward.

If it aint Tebow we need to know.

Orton's one year contract tells me he is gone soon.

I personaly think Tebow is gonna pan out...
I beleive in 2011...
Tebow can win as many games as Orton could with this team.
but to find out... he needs to start.

Well, of course, that is entirely up to Fox. It is his judgment that counts, not
the fans on the street. That is why those fans are plumbers and electricians
and lawyers and delivery people . . . and not coaches. They don't spend
every single day with the players, watching what they can and cannot do at
the time.

So it is not we who need to know what Tebow can do. It is the coaches. And
so I will trust them to make the decisions as to who shows up at each
position, come this September (if there is football). Elway and Fox have both
indicated it is Orton's job to lose. If he does lose it, I want it to be as a
result of honest competition. That's all I ask . . .



And.. I think if he is given a fair shot...
Tebow will earn the starting job in competition.

I think Tim would prefer to earn the job rather than have it handed to him.

I also think that those last 3 games Tebow played showed a lot...
and can not be discounted

I agree to that, at least your last sentence here.

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Well, of course, that is entirely up to Fox. It is his judgment that counts, not
the fans on the street. That is why those fans are plumbers and electricians
and lawyers and delivery people . . . and not coaches. They don't spend
every single day with the players, watching what they can and cannot do at
the time.

So it is not we who need to know what Tebow can do. It is the coaches. And
so I will trust them to make the decisions as to who shows up at each
position, come this September (if there is football). Elway and Fox have both
indicated it is Orton's job to lose. If he does lose it, I want it to be as a
result of honest competition. That's all I ask . . .




I agree to that.

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I think that if the CBA gets done...
the decision is Elway's...
'cause I would bet that Kyle get's traded out from under Fox
in a New York Minute if there is a deal done in 10 days....

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I think that if the CBA gets done...
the decision is Elway's...
'cause I would bet that Kyle get's traded out from under Fox
in a New York Minute if there is a deal done in 10 days....

No, I can't go along with that. Elway is not Al Davis, and Fox isn't a yes man.

I believe the majority decision will be Fox's. He will decide who is on the final
roster. In fact, Elway has already indicated that such final decisions will be
Fox's. If Orton is traded, I fully expect it to be with Fox's blessing . . .

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[PAINTERDAVE]

I disagree.

The one year contract tells me different.

I can't beleive that Bowlen, Elway and Xanders did not make it clear to Fox...
when he was hired...

that this is a rebuild... and that Orton's value is as trade bait.

Orton's only prayer here in Denver..
is NO CBA ... so he can't be traded.

If Tebow is any where near proficiant and workmanlike in competition...
I don't see how they could NOT give him his shot now...
to develop him and find out.

Orton is a dead end in Denver.
Playing him and paying him..
then him walking as a free agent next year...
that is just plain stupid.

Time will tell.

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Yes, this might be it for Orton. I don't dispute that. We'll see. But don't be
surprised if Fox decides he needs at least veteran insurance there and
opens up the competition, once they are finally on the practice field.

But I don't believe they made any such thing clear to Fox. He has already
categorically said he intends to win, and win now. Champ came out of his
meeting with Fox with the same impression. That flies in the face of what you
just said, my friend.

Nope, I think Fox has been around too long to put up with any of that
Al Davis/Jerry Jones crap. I fully believe, had they said such things to Fox,
he would have been on the first plane out of here.

At least, I hope that is so. In my view, the Broncos wouldn't have much
hope of winning with such a yes man at the helm . . .

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Dave, here is a little insight into our "yes man," compliments of Mile High Report (http://www.milehighreport.com/2011/3/5/2032185/the-emergence-of-a-hero-john-fox-the-fulfillment-of-a-prophecy):



Here it is. What I am about to write has never been told by anyone. It is the story of Fox's time with the Raiders.

John Fox was excited to finally have complete control over an NFL defense. He had a master plan to make them great. However, his plans went unheard as Al Davis wanted to put his stamp on the team--cheating. Now this went against everything that Fox believed in, but Davis was his boss, Fox's father Ron had always taught him to respect those in authority. Fox was at a crossroads.

One day in practice Fox was attempting to instruct his team about the Double A-gap blitz, but they were more interested in creating casts stuffed with hard objects. He became furious and stormed into Al Davis' office and told him what happened. Davis, hands laced together, raised his head, smiled and said, "Good. I'm proud of them. That is the Raider way after all. I don't care how you win...just win, baby! You cannot knock on the winning formula."

"I'm not sure that I agree with that formula..." replied Fox.

Holding up his Super Bowl rings Davis said, " Well if you don't agree with these then there truly is no hope for you. I suppose that I should begin looking for your replacement. Get out of my office...NOW!"

Fox not only left his office, he left the team.

Fox walked into the office of senior administrator Bruce Allen and handed him a letter of resignation. At the time, head coach Mike White said the move took him "totally by surprise."Again, I don't believe the FO told Fox how to do anything, nor do I believe
Fox would be with them today, had they done so . . .


An afterthought: One of the blessings we had with Mikey was his vendetta
against the Raiders. That brought us some victories, IMO. It is pleasing to
see that we now have another HC who has this thing about the Raiders. http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thdrink.gif


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[PAINTERDAVE]

Yes, this might be it for Orton. I don't dispute that. We'll see. But don't be
surprised if Fox decides he needs at least veteran insurance there and
opens up the competition, once they are finally on the practice field.

But I don't believe they made any such thing clear to Fox. He has already
categorically said he intends to win, and win now. Champ came out of his
meeting with Fox with the same impression. That flies in the face of what you
just said, my friend.

Nope, I think Fox has been around too long to put up with any of that
Al Davis/Jerry Jones crap. I fully believe, had they said such things to Fox,
he would have been on the first plane out of here.

At least, I hope that is so. In my view, the Broncos wouldn't have much
hope of winning with such a yes man at the helm . . .

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In a normal year... Kyle would already have been traded...
and a veteran FA QB brought on board to mentor the young "super star" as back up...
it being obvious that Orton has no "mentoring" abilities or proclivities.

And again... I dispute that playing Orton gives the Broncos the best chance to win now.
I fully believe that Tebow can wins as many if not more games than Orton can.
Popular opinion gives the 2011 Broncos a shot at winning maybe 5 or 6 games.

I certainly think that Tim could pull off 6 wins.

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In a normal year... Kyle would already have been traded...
and a veteran FA QB brought on board to mentor the young "super star" as back up...
it being obvious that Orton has no "mentoring" abilities or proclivities.

And again... I dispute that playing Orton gives the Broncos the best chance to win now.
I fully believe that Tebow can wins as many if not more games than Orton can.

Okay. You're talking about a raw rookie who is not yet a good pocket passer,
nor yet a good QB, per Elway and Fox, against a veteran QB who has proven
he can pass with anybody in the league (again, per Elway).

Guess, at this point, we have arrived at an agree to disagree point, Painter . . .


Now, how about going to the "Chit Chat" forum and giving us one of your
great stories you're famous for? You Rock, Painter! http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thdrink.gif

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[PAINTERDAVE]

Okay. You're talking about a raw rookie who is not yet a good pocket passer,
nor yet a good QB, per Elway and Fox, against a veteran QB who has proven
he can pass with anybody in the league (again, per Elway).

Guess, at this point, we have arrived at an agree to disagree point, Painter . . .


Now, how about going to the "Chit Chat" forum and giving us one of your
great stories you're famous for? You Rock, Painter! http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thdrink.gif

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Tebow showed me enough, setting 3 different records,
in those 3 games that I believe in him.
His track record makes me believe in him.
I think he has untapped potential.
It is a rebuilding year... a development year...
if Tim can win the same 6 games as Kyle can...
WHY would it not be good to develop the kid NOW?
He wont get better on the bench.
The Coaches and FO wont find out if they can count on him
if he aint in the game.

I can't go to no Chat Room, Top..
I got a heavy date with a hot broad.
The band starts at 3 PM... I have 35 minutes to get there.

[Lonestar]

And.. I think if he is given a fair shot...
Tebow will earn the starting job in competition.

I think Tim would prefer to earn the job rather than have it handed to him.

I also think that those last 3 games Tebow played showed a lot...
and can not be discounted

I see both POV and have no real issues if it goes either way..

I'd rather have Tebow playing if everything is equal..that is mostly because Orton has but one year left on his contract. and after the trading deadline we have zip to answer for his tenure here..

If we can get a 2 or a 3 for him I'd trade him in a heart beat.

so we can get the Tebow era started in DEN without any more pressure on hims other than to play good ball.

Most of our focus now should be on fixing the defense..