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PAINTERDAVE
03-05-2011, 05:37 PM
Discussion on the radio...
the analyst said that back when Cutler was our rookie pick...
he was asked why he dropped so far in the draft...
Jay replied that he and his agent ...
"would not play Kiper's game"...
according to the guy I heard yakking with Mike Evans.

So I never realized before... the power that Kiper holds...
is it up for sale?

If a player and his agent don't give Kiper what he wants...
a fruit basket or whatever...
does Kiper tank a player's stock because of it?

It would explain a lot.

If Tebow and his agent were above bribing Mel...
it would explain a LOT why Kiper hated on Tim so bad.

I don't know if all this is accurate on what level...
maybe a little...
maybe a lot...
but it is crazy that one man has so much power over these players lives.

What do you think?

Does a player have to kiss Kiper's ass to be ranked according to his true ability?

HORSEPOWER 56
03-05-2011, 05:39 PM
I don't think real NFL franchises give two shits about what Mel Kiper thinks... hence why he's never officially worked for the NFL in any capacity.

PAINTERDAVE
03-05-2011, 05:41 PM
Maybe not Fox and Elway...
but there MUST be some folks in charge of drafting players on some teams
who would cringe at the idea of making a pick
only to have Kiper immediatly sneer...
"That's certainly a reach!"

PAINTERDAVE
03-05-2011, 05:43 PM
And the question remains...
do you think Kiper is above being bribed to enhance a players stock?

And conversly, is he so small a man as to tank a player
who "won't play Mel's game" as Cutler put it?

Krugan
03-05-2011, 05:45 PM
Above it no, but who in the world would give him anything to have him "say" this guy is better than that guy.

If teams are drafting off his big board, then they are fooked.

dogfish
03-05-2011, 05:55 PM
I don't think real NFL franchises give two shits about what Mel Kiper thinks... hence why he's never officially worked for the NFL in any capacity.

this. . . kiper's just a talking head on ESPiN-- no GM is changing their player rankings based on his fluff. . .

elsid13
03-05-2011, 06:18 PM
Kiper has never ever held in job in the NFL or College, he's no more insight or knowledge then we do. The only thing he is good at is self promotion.

PAINTERDAVE
03-05-2011, 07:28 PM
So why does Mel's word hold so much power?

The various GM rankings DO get affected by the pundits take on players worth.

Some guy who suddenly rises high... or drops like a rock..
he was the same guy yesterday... but today he is not worth picking early?

I just wonder....

and..

it would not surprise me that Kiper is like some Godfather in his own mind...
sitting back and taking bribes to talk a player up...
slamming a player who "won't play his game."

SoCalImport
03-05-2011, 07:47 PM
So why does Mel's word hold so much power?

The various GM rankings DO get affected by the pundits take on players worth.
"

I'm curious why you think that Kipers word holds power? Seriously...
mock drafts and having "expert" analysis on your website/vt show/radio broadcast is big money and gets good ratings. It's the only reason jobs exist for guys like Kiper.
Kiper is a blowhard who can't convince most fans that he's not full of it, let alone the profesional scouts, coaches and front office personel of any NFL franchise.
I'd chalk up Cutlers quote as being a reflection of his own view of Kiper more than any acual dealings beteen the two parties.

PAINTERDAVE
03-05-2011, 08:17 PM
I'm curious why you think that Kipers word holds power? Seriously...
mock drafts and having "expert" analysis on your website/vt show/radio broadcast is big money and gets good ratings. It's the only reason jobs exist for guys like Kiper.
Kiper is a blowhard who can't convince most fans that he's not full of it, let alone the profesional scouts, coaches and front office personel of any NFL franchise.
I'd chalk up Cutlers quote as being a reflection of his own view of Kiper more than any acual dealings beteen the two parties.

Sour grapes?

That does sound like Jay... LOL.


Thanks for the input , guys...
I was curious.

Have a great Saturday night every body!

vettesplus
03-05-2011, 08:26 PM
who the hell is kiper?

Dzone
03-05-2011, 08:33 PM
Kiper is some skinny dude who never played football who emerges once a year at the time when fans are jonesin for ANYTHING FOOTBALL.Thats why you never see kiper during the season. Nobody gives a rats ass about his scrawny a$$ when there are games to watch.

OrangeHoof
03-05-2011, 10:09 PM
I don't think real NFL franchises give two shits about what Mel Kiper thinks... hence why he's never officially worked for the NFL in any capacity.

Exactly. Somebody needs to go find Bill Polian's "who the hell is Mel Kiper, Jr.?" rant after Kiper blasted another of his draft picks about 20 years ago.

OrangeHoof
03-05-2011, 10:39 PM
Before there were internet or cable tv draft gurus, there was Joel Buchsbaum of Pro Football Weekly. Buchsbaum turned out to be a homely, sickly Jewish kid in NYC with a thick accent who gained the trust of a lot of NFL coaches and scouts.

Joel used to do radio segments and they were amazing to listen to. People would call up and ask Joel what he thought about the back-up deep snapper for E. Dipshit St. and he could rattle off about 30 seconds addressing the kid's strengths and weaknesses without looking anything up.

And more often than not, he was spot on with his assessments. Like anyone, he had some major misses but there's been nobody since that was as reliable with his grades.

ESPN passed on him because he looked like John Clayton's sickly little brother but Buchsbaum put PFW on the map and they haven't been nearly as good since he passed away about 10 years ago.

jhildebrand
03-06-2011, 12:01 AM
If the GM and Scouting offices were going to listen to anybody, they would listen to:

1. Mike Mayock
2. Charles Davis
3. Charlie Casserly
4. Michael Lombardi

Why? Mayock has been right more than wrong. The other guys have some ties to the game. Davis sees the kids in college. Finally, Casserly and Lombardi have been FO types before. However, there is a reason they aren't anymore :D

Kiper at the end of the day isn't even the best talking head when it comes to the draft on his own network! That would go to McShay. Where did ESPN first institute the "insider" policy? Kiper!

I could see how Kiper might be so vain as to solicit money from agents to push a certain player. Why not? He gets paid and in the end, the agent is simply doing their job which will result in a higher pick and higher compensation for the agent. In the end, I just don't think people believe two shits about anything Kiper says.

BeefStew25
03-06-2011, 12:22 AM
If your GM is influenced by talking heads, you are ******.

Shananahan
03-06-2011, 12:55 AM
Some guy who suddenly rises high... or drops like a rock..
he was the same guy yesterday... but today he is not worth picking early?
You think this is because of Kiper? These guys rise and fall in the eyes of the media because the media is filtered information from various scouts, employees and GMs of teams, often anonymously. Then they go and crow about who is hot and who is not. It's not the other way around.

As for your original question, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if Kiper was greasing his pockets off of his position. He does have some power, and I wouldn't be shocked if certain agents and players were willing to pay for the publicity he could provide. I highly, highly doubt that any GMs are out there basing their draft boards on him, though.

rationalfan
03-06-2011, 01:07 AM
i realize dropping these quasi-cryptic media declarations are probably more annoying than enlightening but ... you'd be surprised how much quid pro quo is involved with the coverage of mainstream media.

and that's not to suggest all the reporters/editors/producers are shills or conduits for the highest bidder. much of the influence is very subtle - like building a relationship with a reporter to shovel them "favorable" story ideas or playing on a reporters' natural biases to shape content. as with everything, reporters believe the people they trust; but they shouldn't trust everyone they work with.

bcbronc
03-06-2011, 03:24 AM
Jay Cutler just likes to have something to whine about.

claymore
03-06-2011, 03:41 AM
Ive read about this before. Teams do look at Mock drafts, but they dont make major decisions off of them.

Tebow dropped so far in the Draft because he doesnt know how to take the ball from Center. He was in a spread offense that allowed his athleticisim to overcome many things. Alex Smith was in Urban Meyers offense and was taken #1 overall. He has crapped the bed as a Pro.

That is why Tebow fell in the draft. Because it will take years for him to develop into a starting caliber QB. If ever.

You dont spend first round picks on a guy you know for a fact will not start in his first few years.

Unless you are an absolute moron.

Dreadnought
03-06-2011, 10:15 AM
i realize dropping these quasi-cryptic media declarations are probably more annoying than enlightening but ... you'd be surprised how much quid pro quo is involved with the coverage of mainstream media.

and that's not to suggest all the reporters/editors/producers are shills or conduits for the highest bidder. much of the influence is very subtle - like building a relationship with a reporter to shovel them "favorable" story ideas or playing on a reporters' natural biases to shape content. as with everything, reporters believe the people they trust; but they shouldn't trust everyone they work with.

Agreed - its a sad fact that many (not all) in the media are as lazy as cats. A good PR shop in part makes its money feeding interesting stories to the media worded such that the media carries their water for them. I can say from some past experience that if you write a good press release it will show up verbatim later on in news stories under someone elses byline.

HORSEPOWER 56
03-06-2011, 11:05 AM
If the GM and Scouting offices were going to listen to anybody, they would listen to:

1. Mike Mayock
2. Charles Davis
3. Charlie Casserly
4. Michael Lombardi

Why? Mayock has been right more than wrong. The other guys have some ties to the game. Davis sees the kids in college. Finally, Casserly and Lombardi have been FO types before. However, there is a reason they aren't anymore :D


The funniest part is, Charlie Casserly is the GM who was was responsible for building that potent offense in Houston (Andre Johnson, Owen Daniels, the trade for Matt Schaub) and he drafted Demeco Ryans, but he was also the guy who drafted Mario Williams over Reggie Bush and the backlash was so great that he got fired for it...

I guess he kinda got the last laugh on that one, too. I'd rather have Casserly than Xanders every day of the week and 2X on Sunday...

rcsodak
03-06-2011, 12:15 PM
I'm curious why you think that Kipers word holds power? Seriously...
mock drafts and having "expert" analysis on your website/vt show/radio broadcast is big money and gets good ratings. It's the only reason jobs exist for guys like Kiper.
Kiper is a blowhard who can't convince most fans that he's not full of it, let alone the profesional scouts, coaches and front office personel of any NFL franchise.
I'd chalk up Cutlers quote as being a reflection of his own view of Kiper more than any acual dealings beteen the two parties.
It looks to me like cutlers ego is as big if not bigger than kipers. So THAT'S why he didn't go higher? Really? Lol

Teams have scouts watching college games/following players all year long. So they have first hand knowledge.
Then they have the senior bowl. Shows teachability/effort.
Then they have the combine/pro days. Fills in questions on character(if interviewed)/intangibles/preparedness.
In other words, Kiper's opinion matters not in most teams' mind. In other other words, he's there for the fans/arm chair qb's/mock draft believers of the world.
You, the fan, in other words.
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Ravage!!!
03-06-2011, 02:07 PM
Although I don't think Mayock is any more "right" than anyone else, the reason Kiper's word might be considered to be "powerful" is because Mel Kiper's board is still the one people compare to. Whether you are comparing Mayock's picks to Kipers, or comparing Fox's picks. People always compare their picks to Kipers.

Kiper may have never worked in the NFL, but that doesn't take away from his knowledge of scouting players. Experience is a FAR bigger teacher than anything else,and Kiper has been doing this longer than anyone. He's the one that basically MADE college rating for the draft a business to begin with.

So yes, Kiper's word has power/influence with the public. If the media is talking high on a player, that player's PERCEIVED value and ability is higher. 99% of the NFL fans don't get to watch all of the NCAA. They rely on the scouts to tell us whats out there, and who's better compared to the rest of the NFL hopefuls.

So I very much can see where agents bump up their agent's perceived value by getting higher rankings from the likes of Kiper and the rest. Doesn't shock me a bit, and it absolutely would work.

Slick
03-06-2011, 02:16 PM
Kiper is a genius. He gets paid handsomely to do what we all like to do here. Give our opinions on football players.

I'm sure heś received a few calls from agents to give a favorable review of their clients. Wouldn't surprise me a bit.

OrangeHoof
03-06-2011, 05:09 PM
The funniest part is, Charlie Casserly is the GM who was was responsible for building that potent offense in Houston (Andre Johnson, Owen Daniels, the trade for Matt Schaub) and he drafted Demeco Ryans, but he was also the guy who drafted Mario Williams over Reggie Bush and the backlash was so great that he got fired for it...


Not entirely true. Casserly drafted Williams and Ryans because Gary Kubiak wanted him to as the new head coach, and knowing that he was halfway out the door even before the draft.

I thought he did a brilliant job with the expansion draft, arranging to take some serious studs off of teams in salary cap hell instead of the Browns method of taking 30+ roster fodder types.

And everyone thought drafting Davis Carr was a slam-dunk at the time but Dom Capers knew more about destroying offenses than building them and they literally murdered Carr's confidence.

But what hung Casserly was his constant blabbing to the media about things that were best left unsaid. It made the media love the guy but it made a lot of cloak-and-dagger NFL types see him as a loose cannon.

It's really no surprise that Casserly is with the media now instead of an NFL club. That's who he's more comfortable with.

rcsodak
03-06-2011, 05:22 PM
Not entirely true. Casserly drafted Williams and Ryans because Gary Kubiak wanted him to as the new head coach, and knowing that he was halfway out the door even before the draft.

I thought he did a brilliant job with the expansion draft, arranging to take some serious studs off of teams in salary cap hell instead of the Browns method of taking 30+ roster fodder types.

And everyone thought drafting Davis Carr was a slam-dunk at the time but Dom Capers knew more about destroying offenses than building them and they literally murdered Carr's confidence.

But what hung Casserly was his constant blabbing to the media about things that were best left unsaid. It made the media love the guy but it made a lot of cloak-and-dagger NFL types see him as a loose cannon.

It's really no surprise that Casserly is with the media now instead of an NFL club. That's who he's more comfortable with.

So casserly was the first with the 'transparency' motto?
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I Eat Staples
03-06-2011, 06:00 PM
Kiper isn't a scout. He just compiles information about players, based largely on what scouts and GMs have to say. So no, I doubt his endorsement is for sale. Personal agenda plays a role in everything, but I don't think he's simply bribed.

I have no clue why you're searching for a reason why Tebow was ranked poorly. He simply isn't a good QB prospect. A bunch of fans liking him doesn't change that.

jhildebrand
03-06-2011, 10:07 PM
Although I don't think Mayock is any more "right" than anyone else, the reason Kiper's word might be considered to be "powerful" is because Mel Kiper's board is still the one people compare to. Whether you are comparing Mayock's picks to Kipers, or comparing Fox's picks. People always compare their picks to Kipers.

Kiper may have never worked in the NFL, but that doesn't take away from his knowledge of scouting players. Experience is a FAR bigger teacher than anything else,and Kiper has been doing this longer than anyone. He's the one that basically MADE college rating for the draft a business to begin with.

So yes, Kiper's word has power/influence with the public. If the media is talking high on a player, that player's PERCEIVED value and ability is higher. 99% of the NFL fans don't get to watch all of the NCAA. They rely on the scouts to tell us whats out there, and who's better compared to the rest of the NFL hopefuls.

So I very much can see where agents bump up their agent's perceived value by getting higher rankings from the likes of Kiper and the rest. Doesn't shock me a bit, and it absolutely would work.

Rav, you are crediting Kiper far more for "experience" in putting together his own glorified scouting list than for actual experience as a FO or GM type.

As for Mayock being right more often, as of late he has. He pegged Cutler the best QB in that draft IIRC when everybody was on the chops of Leinart and Young. He was spot on w/ Ngata and more.

In fact, I would say Kiper isn't even the best at what he does on his own network-I think McShay is far more knowledgable and unbiased.

Thnikkaman
03-06-2011, 10:20 PM
Discussion on the radio...
the analyst said that back when Cutler was our rookie pick...
he was asked why he dropped so far in the draft...
Jay replied that he and his agent ...
"would not play Kiper's game"...
according to the guy I heard yakking with Mike Evans.

So I never realized before... the power that Kiper holds...
is it up for sale?

If a player and his agent don't give Kiper what he wants...
a fruit basket or whatever...
does Kiper tank a player's stock because of it?

It would explain a lot.

If Tebow and his agent were above bribing Mel...
it would explain a LOT why Kiper hated on Tim so bad.

I don't know if all this is accurate on what level...
maybe a little...
maybe a lot...
but it is crazy that one man has so much power over these players lives.

What do you think?

Does a player have to kiss Kiper's ass to be ranked according to his true ability?

Yes. I believe it is. There was an article recently about an ex-NFL agent that basically told all, and in his tell-all was how agents would pay Mel to call potential draft picks.

D1g1tal j1m
03-07-2011, 12:05 AM
Kiper just gives his opinions. And opinions are like people, some are just plain dumb...

sneakers
03-07-2011, 03:22 AM
Mel Kiper Jr is retarded. Same goes for those who pour over his mock drafts like they are the word of God.

Poet
03-07-2011, 03:59 AM
Kiper is one of the guys who made the NFL draft something that people care about. His information is very good, he's been doing it a long time.

Kiper's main problem isn't that he's bad, it's that he speaks in absolutes. Saying that a guy is going to be a bust is one thing, slamming a franchise on a two minute tirade about why they always pick early in the draft when they take Marshall Faulk is another.

In the end, that's why being on t.v. is all about. If you try to come across as humble or polite you look weak. That's why whenever Kiper and McShay go at it McShay looks like a green-gilled fool, even though that isn't the case.

As far as having his pockets greased, it wouldn't surprise me one way or another. On one hand if he got busted for it he would probably loss his job and his credibility, and he does have credibility. On the other hand, money talks.

Ravage!!!
03-09-2011, 03:41 PM
Rav, you are crediting Kiper far more for "experience" in putting together his own glorified scouting list than for actual experience as a FO or GM type.

As for Mayock being right more often, as of late he has. He pegged Cutler the best QB in that draft IIRC when everybody was on the chops of Leinart and Young. He was spot on w/ Ngata and more.

In fact, I would say Kiper isn't even the best at what he does on his own network-I think McShay is far more knowledgable and unbiased.

I bet we could find just as many misses with Mayock as we could Kiper. People just generally remember what they want to remember and by whom they want to remember it from. Because of Kiper's personality, people don't like him. I know I don't like him because of his arrogance and his Baltimore biased crap. He's the guy everyone likes to bag on because he can be such a douche. When he's wrong everyone jumps on his case. When he's right, nothing is said.

With Mayock its the other way around because he's the "anti-Kiper." He's the guy that people say "well, I don't listen to Kiper, I listen to Mayock" (not saying you jhil, Im just talking in generals here). Mayock is knowledgable and has a lot of insight, but I dont' think his predictions and guesses are any more accurate than anyone else's (Ayers anyone?). The biggest thing he has going for him, is that he's not "the hair."

As far as McShay.. I personally don't think he's there yet. I think he's a young guy that's making his way into the business and doing his best to make a name for himself, but I think as of right now, he's a wanna-be. I just don't think he has the experience, yet, to give him that much clout.

King just put the hammer on the nail. Kiper's personality of "this is how it is" is what makes people dislike him. Even though he's in a business of opinions, and is expressing them, he puts it out as a fact. Its like people hating Howard Cosell because of the things he said and the way he said it.

Everyone needs the 'bad guy' or the 'enemy' to gang up on and attack. Kiper is that guy and they've marketed that to the point that part of their show is to call in and ATTACK Mel. Its what people love to do.

SOCALORADO.
03-09-2011, 03:52 PM
I bet we could find just as many misses with Mayock as we could Kiper. People just generally remember what they want to remember and by whom they want to remember it from. Because of Kiper's personality, people don't like him. I know I don't like him because of his arrogance and his Baltimore biased crap. He's the guy everyone likes to bag on because he can be such a douche. When he's wrong everyone jumps on his case. When he's right, nothing is said.

With Mayock its the other way around because he's the "anti-Kiper." He's the guy that people say "well, I don't listen to Kiper, I listen to Mayock" (not saying you jhil, Im just talking in generals here). Mayock is knowledgable and has a lot of insight, but I dont' think his predictions and guesses are any more accurate than anyone else's (Ayers anyone?). The biggest thing he has going for him, is that he's not "the hair."

As far as McShay.. I personally don't think he's there yet. I think he's a young guy that's making his way into the business and doing his best to make a name for himself, but I think as of right now, he's a wanna-be. I just don't think he has the experience, yet, to give him that much clout.

King just put the hammer on the nail. Kiper's personality of "this is how it is" is what makes people dislike him. Even though he's in a business of opinions, and is expressing them, he puts it out as a fact. Its like people hating Howard Cosell because of the things he said and the way he said it.

Everyone needs the 'bad guy' or the 'enemy' to gang up on and attack. Kiper is that guy and they've marketed that to the point that part of their show is to call in and ATTACK Mel. Its what people love to do.

No rav. The biggest thing Mayock has is actual time on a fooball field in the NFL.
He played football. He knows what it takes, and he can recognize the traits that make a good, OK, poor football player. I am not saying he makes mistakes, i am sure he does. I have watched Mike Mayock literally call every 1st round pick by every team the last 2 years before the team drafted. Every player. Thats pretty good.
However no one is a bigger moron than kiper.
Hes more wrong than hes ever been right, and thats why he gets clowned even when hes on with other former players. No one respects him, because hes a used car salesmen. He also is just plain creepy.

Ravage!!!
03-09-2011, 03:53 PM
No rav. The biggest thing Mayock has is actual time on a fooball field in the NFL.
He played football. He knows what it takes, and he can recognize the traits that make a good, OK, poor football player. I am not saying he makes mistakes, i am sure he does. I have watched Mike Mayock literally call every 1st round pick by every team the last 2 years before the team drafted. Every player. Thats pretty good.
However no one is a bigger moron than kiper.
Hes more wrong than hes ever been right, and thats why he gets clowned even when hes on with other former players. No one respects him, because hes a used car salesmen. He also is just plain creepy.


Mmm kay. :coffee:

SOCALORADO.
03-09-2011, 03:54 PM
Exactly. Somebody needs to go find Bill Polian's "who the hell is Mel Kiper, Jr.?" rant after Kiper blasted another of his draft picks about 20 years ago.

For Painterdave


http://www.dickipedia.org/dick.php?title=Mel_Kiper%2C_Jr.

One big fan was Indianapolis Colts manager Bill Tobin who praised Kiper saying, "Who in the hell is Mel Kiper, anyway? I mean, here's a guy who criticizes everybody, whoever they take. In my knowledge of him, he's never even put on a jockstrap, he's never been a player, he's never been a coach, he's never been a scout, he's never been an administrator, and all of a sudden, he's an expert. Mel Kiper has no more credentials to do what he's doing than my neighbor, and my neighbor's a postman and he doesn't even have season tickets to the NFL."

Though a dick, Mel Kiper is an infallible genius when it comes to scouting future NFL talent.

He once snidely remarked of the Colts, "That's why [they] keep picking number two every year," after their 1994 second overall selection. Kiper was widely critical of the Colts’ pick that year, Marshall Faulk, who turned out to be such a bust that he is expected to be inducted into the NFL Hall of Fame in the near future.
In 2005, Kiper praised 8th overall selection, wide receiver Mike Williams, saying, "I'll see you at his Hall of Fame induction." Many people have yet to fully recognize the abilities Kiper saw in Williams. These people include coaches, fans, analysts, referees, the players on the teams he played for and against, and anyone else who has seen him in a football jersey. Williams’ journey to the Hall of Fame suffered a slight detour in 2007 when he stopped playing football and no one wanted to sign him.
In 1999, he touted the potential of Oregon quarterback Akili Smith to exceed at the professional level. Fans have high hopes for Smith to have a great season this year and to make a big statement in his league.
In 1998, Kiper argued that Ryan Leaf, 2nd overall pick, had an attitude that would be an asset in the NFL. He has since become one of professional football's most notable quarterbacks.
In 2001, Kiper predicted a dismal 0-16 season for the New England Patriots. The team finished slightly better than that prediction, managing to win just one Super Bowl the entire season.

vandammage13
03-09-2011, 05:54 PM
I don't think real NFL franchises give two shits about what Mel Kiper thinks... hence why he's never officially worked for the NFL in any capacity.

I think his mock draft of last years draft pretty much proved that. It was funny to see it blow up in his face.

robert ethan
03-10-2011, 01:46 AM
Kiper just gives his opinions. And opinions are like people, some are just plain dumb...
Opinions are like ass holes. So is Mel Kiper.:rolleyes: