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Cugel
09-29-2008, 11:06 AM
Part I: KC Game Analysis:

I don't want to rant about the Broncos defense and I'm not going to call for anybody to be fired. We've all done that. It's terrible. I want this thread to be an actual look at what happened and what it means for the future. Plus a look at the drafts past and future.

One distrubing thing. Whenever the Broncos have someone backed up they tend to try and blitz. But teams have been beating them for big gains almost every single time they do. Before the season, Shanahan talked about going back to the defense he "was familiar with" back in 2005. That meant more 8 man fronts and more pressure. But, it hasn't worked. Examples:

1st KC Drive: Denver has them penned up on their own 11. They try and bring pressure:


2-7-KC 14 (14:13) 27-L.Johnson up the middle to DEN 21 for 65 yards (32-D.Bly, 24-C.Bailey).

2nd KC possession: After Royal's fumble, Broncos defense have them in 3rd & long and bring the blitz.


3-13-DEN 29 (7:17) (Shotgun) 11-D.Huard pass deep left to 82-D.Bowe pushed ob at DEN 12 for 17 yards (26-J.Williams).


3rd possession: Boss Bailey makes a good play, and KC has a penalty.


2-10-DEN 26 (14:19) 11-D.Huard pass short right to 27-L.Johnson to DEN 33 for -7 yards (97-B.Bailey).



KC is unable to make a 3rd & 22 and has to kick a FG:

3-22-DEN 38 (13:09) (Shotgun) 11-D.Huard pass short right to 85-W.Franklin to DEN 30 for 8 yards (24-C.Bailey).

Broncos had a TD drive to lead 7-6 and need a stop to regain momentum. The bring the blitz:



3-5-KC 24 (7:28) (Shotgun) 11-D.Huard pass deep left to 82-D.Bowe ran ob at KC 40 for 16 yards.

Broncos manage to hold KC this possession, but Brandon Marshall's fumble & return sets up Johnson's 2 yd. TD run. Nothing much the defense could have done. KC 13 Den 7.

Next KC possession after the half: Denver digs a hole for the defense on first two plays. Special team allows 35 yd. runback, followed by LJ 17 yd. run. KC FG is inevitable.


5-M.Prater kicks 68 yards from DEN 30 to KC 2. 25-J.Charles to KC 37 for 35 yards (23-A.Hall).
1-10-KC 37 (12:06) 27-L.Johnson left end ran ob at DEN 46 for 17 yards

Kansas City Chiefs at 07:32: Champ Bailey strips LJ of the ball on this play, Broncos recover, but Cutler throws 2nd Int on next play.

Kansas City Chiefs at 06:29: Denver's defense actually holds LJ to 7 yards on this possession! KC forced to punt.

Two good defensive series in a row. Denver is still in the game!

Next KC Series:


3-9-KC 45 (:18) 11-D.Huard pass short left to 82-D.Bowe to DEN 38 for 17 yards (26-J.Williams).


2-10-DEN 38 (14:54) 11-D.Huard pass short middle to 80-J.Webb to DEN 23 for 15 yards (20-M.McCree).


2-7-DEN 10 (12:46) 11-D.Huard pass short right to 88-T.Gonzalez for 10 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

Next KC series: Champ Bailey saves another return TD:
5-M.Prater kicks 70 yards from DEN 30 to KC 0. 29-D.Savage to DEN 49 for 51 yards (24-C.Bailey).

Down by 7 at this point in the 4th quarter, Denver has them in 3rd & 6, tries to bring the blitz:


3-6-DEN 45 (7:00) (Shotgun) 11-D.Huard pass short middle to 88-T.Gonzalez to DEN 22 for 23 yards (33-M.Manuel).

Final blow: After onside kick fails Denver needs the ball back, trailing by 7 with 2 minutes to go. Broncos stack the line, but LJ just bounces it around right tackle for 34 yds.



1-10-DEN 43 (2:04) 27-L.Johnson right tackle to DEN 9 for 34 yards (33-M.Manuel).

The final play is mere insult to injury. With KC in easy FG range, Denver has already lost the game:


2-16-DEN 16 (1:45) 27-L.Johnson left tackle for 16 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

Notice that the big plays are not accidental. Most occur on 3rd & long and are the result of Denver attempting to bring pressure and failing, stacking the line and allowing the runner to get through for a big play.

In short, the D-coord. is calling for pressure, but Denver doesn't have the players to execute it.

Broncos talk about all the "talent" on the defense, but talent is conspicuously lacking in two critical areas, Defensive Line and safety.

Notice from above how many tackles were made by LBs and CBs and how few plays were made by DL or safeties!

Part II - Analysis Below:

Cugel
09-29-2008, 11:07 AM
Part II: Brief Analysis:

Conclusion: It's tough to see any hope for the defense to improve much in 2008. The D-coordinator isn't an idiot. He wants to blitz more and put more pressure on the offense, but his players aren't letting him. Almost every time they try it, the defense gives up a big play. He doesn't have any DL who can rush the passer outside of Dumervil.

Teams can double-team Dumervil, knowing that Engleberger and Ekuban aren't going to do anything, and Kenny Peterson and Marcus Thomas aren't getting any pressure in the middle, so the QB can step up into an intact pocket. This has been a problem for years.

Blitzing with LBs leaves the CBs and safeties in coverage. That has led to big plays as Denver's safeties haven't been able to cover WRs and prevent big first downs.

During the last 3 years Denver has found the following starters on offense:

Cutler (1st round pick)
Sheffler (2nd round pick)
TE Dan Graham (FA)
Marshall (4th rd. pick)
Eddie Royal (2nd round pick)
Ryan Clady (1st round pick)
starting RB Selvin Young (FA)
Chris Kuper (6th round)
C Casey Weigman (FA)

But on defense the moves have been MUCH less successful.

After the implosion of the Browncos DL in 2006, the decline and retirement of John Lynch and the loss of Al Wilson, Shanahan tried to re-build his defense.

2006 draft: Dumervil in the 4th round. This is a great move, the best defensive player Shanahan has drafted in years. But, not nearly enough.

2007: Shanny finally tries to address the defense. He takes 3 DL, trading up in the first for Moss, getting Tim Crowder in the 3rd and Marcus Thomas in the 4th round.

None of them has panned out. Marcus Thomas is starting, but anything but stellar. He's looking like a rather pedestrian DT, but at least he's starting.

Moss is a huge bust right now, considering the Broncos traded a 3rd round pick to get him at #17 of the first round. He's stuck behind Dumervil at RE and is too light and weak to play LDE.

It doesn't look like he'll ever become a starter ahead of Dumervil. Unless that changes and he suddenly becomes a starter at LDE he's a bust and will be traded or released when his rookie contract expires after next season.

Crowder is still buried 3rd on the depth chart at LDE behind journeyman John Engleberger and Ekuban.

He will either have to break out during training camp next season or he'll be a bust too. Not being able to at least backup is a bad sign. Being a game day (healthy) inactive player is a worse sign.

So far, both Moss and Crowder have been afterthoughts. We have to hope one of them will progress and become a starter. Probably Crowder has at least a chance next season, but there's no indication so far he can do anything.

As far as the safeties are concerned Denver has tried to get by with cast-off FAs. While it seems like they've succeeded with the LBs (Boss Bailey and Nate Webster are playing decently this season), Marlon McCree and Manuel have been disappointments. None of the safeties are any good in coverage and it's been killing the team.

Problem: It takes defensive players at least a year or two to learn to play in the NFL. That means any hopes for a sound defense probably have to come from FA in the off-season. That will be very difficult, because top quality FA DL are rare and expensive.

Shanahan did manage to sign DT DeWayne Robertson, but his knees have limited his effectiveness. Last year he had 57 tackles. This year he's on a pace for 12 tackles and no sacks. To say he's had ZERO impact would be fair. Now his chronic knee injury has flaired up and he missed the KC game. It's tough to say his presence would have made any difference.

He's likely to be cut or traded next off-season as an expensive failure. I hate saying that because I had high hopes for him, as well as Crowder, Moss and Thomas.

None of these guys has shown anything though. Moss will probably get one more year to prove himself. Thomas will probably be re-signed and continue to be a mediocre but useful DT. Crowder will either step up and win a starting job at LDE or be cut next off-season. Engleberger keeps playing hard, but he has little talent. Ekuban's return from season ending injury last year has been underwhelming in that he couldn't even win the starting job. He's likely another cut/trade next year.

Safety is just a big mess. They could use 4 new safeties on this team.

This probably means the offense must carry the defense for the next 2 years or so, until Denver can draft some more impact players or acquire them as high-priced FAs. Rebuilding the defense isn't going to be an easy job.

I don't see Shanahan firing Slowik no matter how popular that move is among fans. Slowik is running exactly the type of defense Shanahan wants. It's just not working because he doesn't have good enough defensive players. :coffee:

Bronco9798
09-29-2008, 11:24 AM
Part II: Brief Analysis:

Conclusion: It's tough to see any hope for the defense to improve much in 2008. The D-coordinator isn't an idiot. He wants to blitz more and put more pressure on the offense, but his players aren't letting him. Almost every time they try it, the defense gives up a big play. He doesn't have any DL who can rush the passer outside of Dumervil.

Teams can double-team Dumervil, knowing that Engleberger and Ekuban aren't going to do anything, and Kenny Peterson and Marcus Thomas aren't getting any pressure in the middle, so the QB can step up into an intact pocket. This has been a problem for years.

Blitzing with LBs leaves the CBs and safeties in coverage. That has led to big plays as Denver's safeties haven't been able to cover WRs and prevent big first downs.

During the last 3 years Denver has found the following starters on offense:

Cutler (1st round pick)
Sheffler (2nd round pick)
TE Dan Graham (FA)
Marshall (4th rd. pick)
Eddie Royal (2nd round pick)
Ryan Clady (1st round pick)
starting RB Selvin Young (FA)
Chris Kuper (6th round)
C Casey Weigman (FA)

But on defense the moves have been MUCH less successful.

After the implosion of the Browncos DL in 2006, the decline and retirement of John Lynch and the loss of Al Wilson, Shanahan tried to re-build his defense.

2006 draft: Dumervil in the 4th round. This is a great move, the best defensive player Shanahan has drafted in years. But, not nearly enough.

2007: Shanny finally tries to address the defense. He takes 3 DL, trading up in the first for Moss, getting Tim Crowder in the 3rd and Marcus Thomas in the 4th round.

None of them has panned out. Marcus Thomas is starting, but anything but stellar. He's looking like a rather pedestrian DT, but at least he's starting.

Moss is a huge bust right now, considering the Broncos traded a 3rd round pick to get him at #17 of the first round. He's stuck behind Dumervil at RE and is too light and weak to play LDE.

It doesn't look like he'll ever become a starter ahead of Dumervil. Unless that changes and he suddenly becomes a starter at LDE he's a bust and will be traded or released when his rookie contract expires after next season.

Crowder is still buried 3rd on the depth chart at LDE behind journeyman John Engleberger and Ekuban.

He will either have to break out during training camp next season or he'll be a bust too. Not being able to at least backup is a bad sign. Being a game day (healthy) inactive player is a worse sign.

So far, both Moss and Crowder have been afterthoughts. We have to hope one of them will progress and become a starter. Probably Crowder has at least a chance next season, but there's no indication so far he can do anything.

As far as the safeties are concerned Denver has tried to get by with cast-off FAs. While it seems like they've succeeded with the LBs (Boss Bailey and Nate Webster are playing decently this season), Marlon McCree and Manuel have been disappointments. None of the safeties are any good in coverage and it's been killing the team.

Problem: It takes defensive players at least a year or two to learn to play in the NFL. That means any hopes for a sound defense probably have to come from FA in the off-season. That will be very difficult, because top quality FA DL are rare and expensive.

Shanahan did manage to sign DT DeWayne Robertson, but his knees have limited his effectiveness. Last year he had 57 tackles. This year he's on a pace for 12 tackles and no sacks. To say he's had ZERO impact would be fair. Now his chronic knee injury has flaired up and he missed the KC game. It's tough to say his presence would have made any difference.

He's likely to be cut or traded next off-season as an expensive failure. I hate saying that because I had high hopes for him, as well as Crowder, Moss and Thomas.

None of these guys has shown anything though. Moss will probably get one more year to prove himself. Thomas will probably be re-signed and continue to be a mediocre but useful DT. Crowder will either step up and win a starting job at LDE or be cut next off-season. Engleberger keeps playing hard, but he has little talent. Ekuban's return from season ending injury last year has been underwhelming in that he couldn't even win the starting job. He's likely another cut/trade next year.

Safety is just a big mess. They could use 4 new safeties on this team.

This probably means the offense must carry the defense for the next 2 years or so, until Denver can draft some more impact players or acquire them as high-priced FAs. Rebuilding the defense isn't going to be an easy job.

I don't see Shanahan firing Slowik no matter how popular that move is among fans. Slowik is running exactly the type of defense Shanahan wants. It's just not working because he doesn't have good enough defensive players. :coffee:



I don't see Shanahan firing Slowik no matter how popular that move is among fans. Slowik is running exactly the type of defense Shanahan wants. It's just not working because he doesn't have good enough defensive players.

Yep, enough said. The talent level is incriminating and very poor.

turftoad
09-29-2008, 11:32 AM
Yep, enough said. The talent level is incriminating and very poor.

Agreed. we're starting journeymen and cast offs at just about ever position on "D".

We just don't have the talent to run any scheme.

We're screwed on "D" this year.

underrated29
09-29-2008, 11:33 AM
I See us having a big problem putting JMFW or Paymah on the teams #1 or #2 WR. THat is just freaking INSANE!!!!

We have champ bailey and dre bly on our roster, yet we use a rookie or a backup #3cb to cover the teams best WR. WTF??? WTF??

That is sooooo wrong! Use our best guys to take out their best guys and that will leave the other teams with ZILCH to work with, and maybe our Zilch can cover their Zilch...Just a thought.

Here is where i disagree. We will not be cutting Moss, crowder, thomas, robertson, or anyone else you think. There is no one out there better than those guys and we would need replacements for them. Also, even if we draft DT,DE,MLB,S next year (which i wholly think we will.) We still need time to groom them, and backups if they pan out. All the more reason we keep them on the roster.

I could see us packaging doom and a 4th to a team for another 2nd rd pick. But after that i dont see us getting rid of any more of our DL guys.

I think we need to start with the middle of our Defense in all positions and work out from there. DT/MLB/S with the #1, then DT/MLB/S with our #2. And i would not be surprised to see us pick up another 2nd somehow.


Good anaylsis, but i disagree that we are going to let all these guys walk unless we somehow hit on all of our picks and they become probowlers immediately.

sacmar
09-29-2008, 11:38 AM
%$#@, %$#@, and furthermore %$@$ and %$!@ !!!!!! And that's all i have to say about this game.

Cugel
09-29-2008, 12:00 PM
Here is where i disagree. We will not be cutting Moss, crowder, thomas, robertson, or anyone else you think. There is no one out there better than those guys and we would need replacements for them. Also, even if we draft DT,DE,MLB,S next year (which i wholly think we will.) We still need time to groom them, and backups if they pan out. All the more reason we keep them on the roster.

I could see us packaging doom and a 4th to a team for another 2nd rd pick. But after that i dont see us getting rid of any more of our DL guys.

I think we need to start with the middle of our Defense in all positions and work out from there. DT/MLB/S with the #1, then DT/MLB/S with our #2. And i would not be surprised to see us pick up another 2nd somehow.

Good anaylsis, but i disagree that we are going to let all these guys walk unless we somehow hit on all of our picks and they become probowlers immediately.

Perhaps I should have been more clear. I liked all those players. But, it's a question of money! You don't pay 1st round money to a backup! Jarvis Moss's contract is for the #17 pick of the 1st round. That means the team is expecting him to become a starter and an impact player. When Moss' rookie contract expires he either has to take a massive pay-cut and become a permanent backup, or else be cut/traded.

Since few players are willing to admit they are just busts, he's not going to take a big paycut (see Ashlie Lelie), and Shanahan isn't going to pay him starter money when he's not a starter.

They can get a backup DL like another Kenny Peterson for much less money than they are paying Moss -- and MUCH, MUCH less than it would cost to re-sign him.

He's got tremendous speed, and they hoped he'd become a terror to opposing QBs.

That hasn't happened. So far he's been a liability on run defense, which they are emphasizing. Slowik & Shanny have concluded they can't afford a liability on run defense because when teams run on the Broncos they keep Cutler & the offense off the field.

We saw that in the KC game.

As for Crowder, he's #3 on the depth chart behind Engleberger and Ekuban. He was a game day inactive on week 1. The last three games he's been used sparingly and has no tackles, assists, FF, Int, sacks or noticeable plays of any kind. He's a 3rd round pick, so he's not making as much as Moss, but he's still vastly overpaid for his current production.

He still has a chance to become a starting LDE next season. But, if he can't even beat out Engleberger or Ekuban, neither of whom is great, that means that the coaches aren't thrilled with him. That's not a good sign.

The odds are the Broncos cut him loose and try to find somebody better via the draft or FA. He doesn't look like he'll step up this season. Next training camp/pre-season will be his last chance.

Thomas won't be cut - - he's a mediocre starter, but the rest of them are LESS than mediocre, so why get rid of him? He's not making a mint either as a 4th rounder. He might demand a big pay bonus as a starter, but with little to show he won't get it (at least from the Broncos).

Robertson. He's been a non-factor and his contract numbers are set to go up a lot next season.

Robertson is another Courtney Brown. A guy with great talent, a former 1st round pick, but his knees just don't let him become the player he could be. He had some good years for the Jets, but they unloaded him just in time. It was a big gamble to take him on with his injury, but he hadn't ever missed a game in his 4 year career due to his degenerative knees --- UNTIL the KC game. We'll see the rest of the way.

I expect Robertson to play this season, but his injury will limit his effectiveness. Denver can find a player to make around 12-15 tackles a year for a lot less money and who doesn't have a bone-on-bone condition in his knee.

Marlon McCree & Marquand Manuel are clearly scrubs. Both can be replaced either by FAs or draft picks. I expect Denver to finally try and draft a safety in the high rounds of next year's draft.

But August 2009 is the earliest we'll get to see some real improvement in the secondary.

I don't think Paymah has played particularly well, but he's the 3rd DB. For a #3 he isn't bad. It's unfortunate they had to get rid of Foxworth who is better, but he would have been a FA after this season and they wouldn't have gotten anything for him. They had to pick between Foxworth who wanted a starting job and wouldn't be happy as a backup and Paymah who is satisfied where he is and can be re-signed.

You can't pay huge sums for everybody! It's tough to improve on Paymah as the #3 CB without overpaying at the position. I expect the Broncos to try and draft a CB next year. That will give them a cheap backup for a few years, and maybe ultimately replace Dre Bly if they're very lucky.

jrelway
09-29-2008, 12:04 PM
you can break it down as much as you want. our D line is awful, our LB'ers stink besides DJ, and our safeties suck even more than our LB'ers. You can throw slowik into the mix also. we just have to cross our fingers and hope our offense scores 30-40 plus points every game. thank god we're still 3-1 with a pansy ass schedule.

underrated29
09-29-2008, 12:11 PM
AHH- the money aspect, i forgot about that. I see what you are saying.


It will be an interesting draft. ( we need DE/DT/MLB/S) all with our first pick, its going to be a tough one to call thats for sure.


I like paymah, but when we have champ and dre on our roster, i dont think he (paymah) shoudl be covering the opposing teams #1 or #2wr. I am a fan of BLY, so i hope he doesnt go anywhere. ( although i am probably the only one). But as has been said before, no pressure on the QB means lots of pressure on the CB -even champ.

I am not as down on the defense as most, I really think a lot of problems could be solved if our best guys match up against their best guys. So far though we arent doing that.


Also the first play of the game the 61 yard Lj run- we were in the 3-4 lineup. Why i dont know, as we should have known LJ is their only weapon and stacked the box against him.

turftoad
09-29-2008, 12:12 PM
you can break it down as much as you want. our D line is awful, our LB'ers stink besides DJ, and our safeties suck even more than our LB'ers. You can throw slowik into the mix also. we just have to cross our fingers and hope our offense scores 30-40 plus points every game. thank god we're still 3-1 with a pansy ass schedule.

Won't happen. Opposing defenses will start to figure our offense out. Yep, thank god we are 3-1 because KC is a team that we should have pumbled and the Chargers won so they are 2-2.
We needed this game to stay 2 game up in the division. Now we're just one game up.
People that blow off this loss aren't looking at the long term, if there is one for us.

Cugel
09-29-2008, 01:04 PM
It's tough to see the Broncos going anywhere this season if they play as badly as they did in KC. But, it's not certain they will.

Clearly they can't put ANY pressure on their defense, either by turning the ball over or going three-and-out a lot. The defense can't handle pressure. The offense can if Cutler doesn't make too many mistakes. They can stay with anybody, but they can't do it if the defense is giving up long runs all day.

Perhaps if they get Roberson back he might help clog up the middle on running plays. Marcus Thomas and Kenny Peterson didn't do much of a job yesterday and the LBs let LJ run wild for nearly 200 yards. When Champ Bailey and Dre Bly have to run down a ball-carrier after a 63 yard scramble that's not good! :coffee:

It's going to be a long season unless somehow the defensive players start to improve a LOT. I just don't see how they can.

What can Slowik do? His players are just not doing the job.

Zweems56
09-29-2008, 02:51 PM
Here's how I see it. Our defense sucks, thats for certain. But on a different note... any team with 4 turnovers in their own territory, and what? 4 fieldgoals? is bound to lose the game. You just dont win with those sorts of odds, no matter how great your defense is. Our defense put up a hell of a fight for most of that game considering the shitty circumstances they were in. I didn't get a chance to watch the end of the game because the feeds were cut, but I blame that game on the offense entirely. You just can't leave the defense on the field for that long and backed up so far into their own endzone and expect to have a chance. They kept us in the game for most of it, and there's nothign to complain about there, chiefs or no.

Buff
09-29-2008, 03:47 PM
For those of you too lazy to read Cugel's well thought out 2 page analysis of the defense... Allow me to summarize: We're hopelessly ******. Now, and for the forseeable future.

Our complete lack of talent at defensive line and safety has handcuffed the defense's ability to do anything effectively. We can't blitz, we can hardly stop the run, and therefore 2 of our most talented players (Bailey, Bly) are virtual non-factors.

It's a little depressing to think about really, because it's tough to envision this group getting any better with the current personnel. What seemed like a novel idea to toy with the 3-4 only smacks of desperation now that we've seen it in action. I just don't know what else to say about this group other than our offense better score 30+ every game.

BigDaddyBronco
09-29-2008, 03:51 PM
For those of you too lazy to read Cugel's well thought out 2 page analysis of the defense... Allow me to summarize: We're hopelessly ******. Now, and for the forseeable future.

Our complete lack of talent at defensive line and safety has handcuffed the defense's ability to do anything effectively. We can't blitz, we can hardly stop the run, and therefore 2 of our most talented players (Bailey, Bly) are virtual non-factors.

It's a little depressing to think about really, because it's tough to envision this group getting any better with the current personnel. What seemed like a novel idea to toy with the 3-4 only smacks of desperation now that we've seen it in action. I just don't know what else to say about this group other than our offense better score 30+ every game.
Back in the SB days you could go out and get good free agents to make your team better. Today, not so much. The only guys available either are problem children, require a lot of money, or have degenerative knees. They should spend the money to steal whoever does the DLine scouting for the Giants.

oubronco
09-29-2008, 04:10 PM
He doesn't have any DL who can rush the passer outside of Dumervil.

2006 draft: Dumervil in the 4th round. This is a great move, the best defensive player Shanahan has drafted in years. But, not nearly enough.

Dude seriously your giving Doom too much credit he is a serious liability against the run and he just isn't getting to the QB

I like him and all but they need a BEAST at DE BADLY

Lonestar
09-29-2008, 05:33 PM
Back in the SB days you could go out and get good free agents to make your team better. Today, not so much. The only guys available either are problem children, require a lot of money, or have degenerative knees. They should spend the money to steal whoever does the DLine scouting for the Giants.

That or their DL coach someone is doing the job in New York.. they have brought in some absolutely no ones and have turned into in the reason they beat Brady for the Lombardi.. and what is laughable they lost their best two from that squad and they have not missed a beat down..

But remember folks mikey does not bring in super strong coaches that can tell him to take a hike for interfering in his area..

Nomad
09-29-2008, 06:25 PM
Won't happen. Opposing defenses will start to figure our offense out. Yep, thank god we are 3-1 because KC is a team that we should have pumbled and the Chargers won so they are 2-2.
We needed this game to stay 2 game up in the division. Now we're just one game up.
People that blow off this loss aren't looking at the long term, if there is one for us.

Very true, turf! And the BRONCOS aren't the greatest team at adjusting.

Simple Jaded
09-29-2008, 06:40 PM
"I don't see Shanahan firing Slowik no matter how popular that move is among fans. Slowik is running exactly the type of defense Shanahan wants. It's just not working because he doesn't have good enough defensive players."

Since when does that matter?

As it stands right here, right now, the defense is so poor that somebody will have to answer for it, and since the GM is never going to do that the DC will.

Btw, how is that "Eight in the box" defense (Looks more like "Three in the box" to me) that Shanahan loves so much doin so far? Same shit, different day......

G_Money
09-29-2008, 08:46 PM
He doesn't have any DL who can rush the passer outside of Dumervil.

2006 draft: Dumervil in the 4th round. This is a great move, the best defensive player Shanahan has drafted in years. But, not nearly enough.

Dude seriously your giving Doom too much credit he is a serious liability against the run and he just isn't getting to the QB

I like him and all but they need a BEAST at DE BADLY

Okay, but you know how you get a beast at DE? Luck.

DL bomb out more than any other position. Any team that gets a great one is never letting them go if they can help it. There's a reason the Titans won't let Haynesworth go. Their whole D goes belly-up without him. He's THAT important. Great DL are terrifically valuable.

But you can't just pick one of the first 5 DEs in the draft and know he'll work out. Because 4 out of 5 don't.

Scheme does matter in the use of a DE. We could cover Doom's run deficiency by run-blitzing from his side. We don't. We could help him in the pass by trying to slide a LB either inside or outside of him and trying to get him freed up. We don't do that either.

We don't help him at all. We don't help any of our DL succeed. Slowik may know he needs to blitz, but he doesn't know HOW to blitz. :confused: He figures if he's bringing an extra guy then that's all he needs to do. No trickery, no stunting. Bring another body and that will solve the problem.

Only it's not solving it.

Better players would help, but so would better schemes and better coaches. I don't think our DL KNOW any techniques. Burney apparently has no help to give in that regard.

But you know how people scoff at our running game because we make it work most years no matter who's toting the rock?

There are defensive coaches out there who can do the same for pass rushers.

We need to get one of those guys who can turn the ordinary into the extraordinary. Because scheme does matter, especially when a team proves itself incapable of adding extraordinary talent in that particular facet of the game.

~G

oubronco
10-01-2008, 04:52 PM
I really think its more on Burney not getting any production from the D-line, he just hasn't done anything with something like 34 different D-lineman since 2002 therfore I believe a new D-line coach and a blitzing scheme would do wonders

smith49
10-01-2008, 10:14 PM
Okay, but you know how you get a beast at DE? Luck.

DL bomb out more than any other position. Any team that gets a great one is never letting them go if they can help it. There's a reason the Titans won't let Haynesworth go. Their whole D goes belly-up without him. He's THAT important. Great DL are terrifically valuable.

But you can't just pick one of the first 5 DEs in the draft and know he'll work out. Because 4 out of 5 don't.

Scheme does matter in the use of a DE. We could cover Doom's run deficiency by run-blitzing from his side. We don't. We could help him in the pass by trying to slide a LB either inside or outside of him and trying to get him freed up. We don't do that either.

We don't help him at all. We don't help any of our DL succeed. Slowik may know he needs to blitz, but he doesn't know HOW to blitz. :confused: He figures if he's bringing an extra guy then that's all he needs to do. No trickery, no stunting. Bring another body and that will solve the problem.

Only it's not solving it.

Better players would help, but so would better schemes and better coaches. I don't think our DL KNOW any techniques. Burney apparently has no help to give in that regard.

But you know how people scoff at our running game because we make it work most years no matter who's toting the rock?

There are defensive coaches out there who can do the same for pass rushers.

We need to get one of those guys who can turn the ordinary into the extraordinary. Because scheme does matter, especially when a team proves itself incapable of adding extraordinary talent in that particular facet of the game.

~G



G, i have to agree with almost everything you stated. i especially agree with the "know how to blitz" part. our dc does not know HOW to blitz. in the nfl you can not just send an extra guy or two. you have to when, where, and who to send. not to mention down and distance situations. look, i am no defensive genious and i don't claim to even play one on the internet, but i think G is correct in what he said above.

TheRecession
10-02-2008, 11:11 AM
I think its an combination of both. Dumervil is not an every down player and should never be in the game on any play that looks like a run. The Broncos would be better of going with youth 100% because they cannot be worst than the guys right now.