Players to be cut?

[cuzz4169]

Just sitting here thinking. Give me your player who should be cut.

Daniel Graham-Terrible
Renaldo Hill-Terrible
Correll Buckhalter-If we draft or sign a FA.
Russ Hochstein-sucked
Jamal Williams-paid to much and to old & was avg.
Nate Jones-terrible in coverage
Lonnie Paxton-1000% cut, just makes way to much money to do what he does.
Brian Dawkins??????-tough one, but coverage skills suck..I don't see him as an every down Safety. If he's cool with coming out in certain packages then I keep him.

[Lonestar]

do not see anyone on that list other than Graham that I agree with.

and only because he is way over paid.

beyond that all the rest serve a useful purpose..

[cuzz4169]

do not see anyone on that list other than Graham that I agree with.

and only because he is way over paid.

beyond that all the rest serve a useful purpose..

So you say your keeping the same 4-12 team and just adding pieces? First not enough room on roster and second you will be 4-12 if you are thinking these players have a purpose.

[bcbronc]

do not see anyone on that list other than Graham that I agree with.

and only because he is way over paid.

beyond that all the rest serve a useful purpose..

yeah, maybe not Hochstein.

[Magnificent Seven]

Cut all ex patriots players

[Lonestar]

So you say your keeping the same 4-12 team and just adding pieces? First not enough room on roster and second you will be 4-12 if you are thinking these players have a purpose.

Who said I would keep them. When others come in and compete for the job and found ro be Better then cut all you want.

Your post sounded like you would not like us to keep them regareeReRezsmknjkikmmmmkkmm
g
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[zbeg]

Graham is hardly "terrible." He's the best blocking tight end in the NFL. That's why the Broncos signed him - nobody had any illusions of him being Shannon Sharpe, and he still commanded a lot of money for a reason (and if the Broncos didn't give him that kind of money, some other team would have; nobody thought he was overpaid when he signed the contract with Denver).

The guy is a beast of a blocker and hopefully every now and again will catch a ball or two. That's a valuable player to have.

[broncofaninfla]

I agree with everybody on the list except Hill and maybe Graham. We are pretty thin at te right but Graham isn't anything special and if he was so good at blocking why didn't that show in Denvers running game?

[sneakers]

Cutting Lonnie Paxton would make Frau way too happy to be allowed to happen.

[zbeg]

I agree with everybody on the list except Hill and maybe Graham. We are pretty thin at te right but Graham isn't anything special and if he was so good at blocking why didn't that show in Denvers running game?

By that same logic, if Champ Bailey is so good, why didn't that show in Denver's pass defense?

It takes more than one player performing at a high level to make a unit productive.

Also, blocking is important in the passing game, of course, where the Broncos were 7th in the NFL.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Just sitting here thinking. Give me your player who should be cut.

Daniel Graham-Terrible
Renaldo Hill-Terrible
Correll Buckhalter-If we draft or sign a FA.
Russ Hochstein-sucked
Jamal Williams-paid to much and to old & was avg.
Nate Jones-terrible in coverage
Lonnie Paxton-1000% cut, just makes way to much money to do what he does.
Brian Dawkins??????-tough one, but coverage skills suck..I don't see him as an every down Safety. If he's cool with coming out in certain packages then I keep him.

Graham should be released because he is way overpaid for what he does. It's time for Richard Quinn to live up to his draft status and be the 2nd round pick "blocking TE" that he should be.

Hill is currently the best coverage Safety on the roster. That's not saying much but we can't just release guys that we don't have replacements for. Same goes for Dawkins.

Buckhalter might be the the odd man out if White returns 100% from injury. Especially if we grab a RB in FA or the draft. I have no problem with Buck being released.

Unfortunately, I think Hochstein will be retained and end up playing LG. Harris is all but done in Denver and I think they'll move Beadles out to RT leaving a significant hole at LG. Really, it's between Hochstein, Olsen, and a potential FA.

DT is a position in which we don't even know what we have, yet. Vickerson, Bannan, and Thomas have all played DT in a 4-3 before. Williams is a big body who I think could still play a Pat Williams type of space eater role in a 4-3. McBean is the guy that I'd get rid of. He just plain sucks. He's too slow for a 4-3 DE and not big/strong enough for a 4-3 DT - NTM, he's a face-masking machine. Really depends on FA and the draft.

I think Paxton was a huge waste of $ when we had Mike Leach, but he's here and finding a good long snapper can be tough. He can stay put as far as I'm concerned. Trying to replace hm could cost just as much.

Nate Jones should stay only because our current CB status is in limbo. Re-signing Champ is HUGE, but Goodman missed a lot of time last year, Cox's future is uncertain, leaving Squid and Vaughn. If Goodman gets hurt again and Cox goes to prison, that leaves only Champ, Squid, and Vaughn unless Jones stays. He also flexes (poorly, but better than McBath or Bruton) to Safety in an emergency. If we get a new CB or S in FA/the draft then I think Jones is expendable.

[TXBRONC]

I would keep Graham over Richard Quinn or Dan Gronkowski. Graham's skill seemed to have deteriorated but what have R. Quinn and Gronkowski done? Neither one of those guys were not worth the time or effort to bring into Denver.

I don't understand cutting Paxton. It's not his fault that McDaniels brought him in when we already a solid LS in Leach. He's done his job very well so there no sense in replacing him atp.

I wouldn't shed a tear over Russ Hochstein being cut. He wasn't very good when he had his chance to start.

[rationalfan]

Graham is hardly "terrible." He's the best blocking tight end in the NFL. That's why the Broncos signed him - nobody had any illusions of him being Shannon Sharpe, and he still commanded a lot of money for a reason (and if the Broncos didn't give him that kind of money, some other team would have; nobody thought he was overpaid when he signed the contract with Denver).

The guy is a beast of a blocker and hopefully every now and again will catch a ball or two. That's a valuable player to have.

nice post. good to see someone look past the glamour of offensive stats.

[rcsodak]

I agree with everybody on the list except Hill and maybe Graham. We are pretty thin at te right but Graham isn't anything special and if he was so good at blocking why didn't that show in Denvers running game?
With that kind of reasoning, I can say he saved Orton from being killed. ; )
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[TXBRONC]

Graham should be released because he is way overpaid for what he does. It's time for Richard Quinn to live up to his draft status and be the 2nd round pick "blocking TE" that he should be.

Hill is currently the best coverage Safety on the roster. That's not saying much but we can't just release guys that we don't have replacements for. Same goes for Dawkins.

Buckhalter might be the the odd man out if White returns 100% from injury. Especially if we grab a RB in FA or the draft. I have no problem with Buck being released.

Unfortunately, I think Hochstein will be retained and end up playing LG. Harris is all but done in Denver and I think they'll move Beadles out to RT leaving a significant hole at LG. Really, it's between Hochstein, Olsen, and a potential FA.

DT is a position in which we don't even know what we have, yet. Vickerson, Bannan, and Thomas have all played DT in a 4-3 before. Williams is a big body who I think could still play a Pat Williams type of space eater role in a 4-3. McBean is the guy that I'd get rid of. He just plain sucks. He's too slow for a 4-3 DE and not big/strong enough for a 4-3 DT - NTM, he's a face-masking machine. Really depends on FA and the draft.

I think Paxton was a huge waste of $ when we had Mike Leach, but he's here and finding a good long snapper can be tough. He can stay put as far as I'm concerned. Trying to replace hm could cost just as much.

Nate Jones should stay only because our current CB status is in limbo. Re-signing Champ is HUGE, but Goodman missed a lot of time last year, Cox's future is uncertain, leaving Squid and Vaughn. If Goodman gets hurt again and Cox goes to prison, that leaves only Champ, Squid, and Vaughn unless Jones stays. He also flexes (poorly, but better than McBath or Bruton) to Safety in an emergency. If we get a new CB or S in FA/the draft then I think Jones is expendable.

Again I would rather keep Graham and get rid of either Richard Quinn or Gronkowski. Graham may not be real good receiver but Quinn is worse imo.

It wouldn't be surprising to see Buckhalter get cut but I think it would be contingent upon not only the health of White but also what kind of shape he is in.

I could also see Hochstein being cut and if Harris is gone drafting a tackle. Imo it wouldn't be a good idea to move Beadles when just now starting settle in at guard. If he's moved that two positions to break rather than just one. If I'm not mistake Hochstein was given a shot at right tackle and didn't do very well.

[SOCALORADO.]

Just sitting here thinking. Give me your player who should be cut.

Daniel Graham-Terrible. The best blocking TE in the NFL. I admit i HATE watching him drop balls, but with NO other option, he should stay because he serves a useful purpose.

Renaldo Hill-Terrible No, hes not terrible. DEN's pass rush, now thats terrible, and no one is yelling for Ayers head. the secondary sucked, cause the opposing QB had waay too much time.
Correll Buckhalter-If we draft or sign a FA. DENs best RB!?!?! WTF!?!?!? Who will run the football? Knowshow!?!? a FA? Buck should stay cause hes a solid player overlall.
Russ Hochstein-sucked Agree
Jamal Williams-paid to much and to old & was avg. Agree
Nate Jones-terrible in coverage Agree
Lonnie Paxton-1000% cut, just makes way to much money to do what he does. DEN is stuck with him, so suck it up.
Brian Dawkins??????-tough one, but coverage skills suck..I don't see him as an every down Safety. If he's cool with coming out in certain packages then I keep him.Agree
I would LOVE to see your opinion on who DEN would start at both safety positions next year in your hypothetical. And puulease dont say a rookie like Rahim Moore or Robert Sands.

[TXBRONC]

I would LOVE to see your opinion on who DEN would start at both safety positions next year in your hypothetical. And puulease dont say a rookie like Rahim Moore or Robert Sands.

We nee to get younger in the secondary but sure isn't something that should be done all at once. Just ask how they feel about starting the youngest secondary in the League this past season.

[SOCALORADO.]

We nee to get younger in the secondary but sure isn't something that should be done all at once. Just ask how they feel about starting the youngest secondary in the League this past season.

DEN does need to address the safety position. However, the massive, glaring issues on the front 7 of the defense just does not justify taking a player for the secondary any higher than the 3rd.
Of course if DEN gets a pick within the top 3 rounds for Orton or Harris then thats OK.
DEN needs to be active in BOTH FA and the draft. They dont really have a choice now. Mcdoodoo head has set them back so badly, that not going after some solid players in FA would make this a 5-7 year rebuild.
Roman Harper or Dawan Landry would be more than adequate near pro bowl level players that could lead and help this team for the next 3-4 years.
The front 7 is the issue in DEN.

[silkamilkamonico]

I don't see Denver in a position to be cutting anyone. We need all the players we can get.

People can sit and bag on guys like Graham, but the fact of the matter is we aren't going to get any better players in free agency or draft this year.

Denver's turnover of players over the years is exactly why we're always scrapping to fill holes rather than building.

Someone please tell me when Denver plans on actually "building" a quality football team, because I haven't seen it in almost 20 years.

[zbeg]

Someone please tell me when Denver plans on actually "building" a quality football team, because I haven't seen it in almost 20 years.

Missed the late 90s, did you?

[cuzz4169]

Brian Dawkins is due a $6 million salary in 2011
Jamal Williams $5 million in salary and roster bonus.
Renaldo Hill is scheduled for a $2.4 salary
Correll Buckhalter $1.92 million

[dogfish]

that list looks fine to me. . . realistically i don't think you can cut dawkins, hill and jones all this year-- we can only fill so many holes, gotta spread it out over a year or two. . . but there's not a player on there i'd miss. . .

dan graham? that dude is laughably overpaid for what he does-- i'm sorry, his blocking just isn't that superior to other players-- not enough to make up for the fact that he's horribly one-dimensional. . . he's barely even functional as a safety valve in the passing game anymore, his hands are so unreliable. . .

this year's TE class in free agency is going to be incredibly deep. . . we can easily find a younger TE that can function in the passing game and still block. . . tebow neds a safety valve to help move the chains and be a big red zone target. . . give quinn another year to see if he can do what he was overdrafted for, and gronkowski is an adequate blocking TE for a fraction of graham's bloated price. . .

[cuzz4169]

Graham is hardly "terrible." He's the best blocking tight end in the NFL. That's why the Broncos signed him - nobody had any illusions of him being Shannon Sharpe, and he still commanded a lot of money for a reason (and if the Broncos didn't give him that kind of money, some other team would have; nobody thought he was overpaid when he signed the contract with Denver).

The guy is a beast of a blocker and hopefully every now and again will catch a ball or two. That's a valuable player to have.

Graham is not best blocking TE in the NFL......he's top 5 at best top 10 for sure.

Vernon Davis: is the best blocking TE

other good blocking TE's
Brandon Manumaleuna
Jason Witten
Alge Crumpler
Marcedes Lewis
Jim Kleinsasser

I put Graham in that list no doubt but not at almost 5million a season and he's not the blocker he was a few yrs ago. I'd say he would have to redo his contract to stay.

[cuzz4169]

Just sitting here thinking. Give me your player who should be cut.

Daniel Graham-Terrible
Renaldo Hill-Terrible
Correll Buckhalter-If we draft or sign a FA.
Russ Hochstein-sucked
Jamal Williams-paid to much and to old & was avg.
Nate Jones-terrible in coverage
Lonnie Paxton-1000% cut, just makes way to much money to do what he does.
Brian Dawkins??????-tough one, but coverage skills suck..I don't see him as an every down Safety. If he's cool with coming out in certain packages then I keep him.

This list is based on age, $, performance and who we sign or draft.

For the money Graham gets payed I would cut him and go after Zack Miller or Mercedes Lewis. Plus like another said Quinn & Gronkowski do the same for more than half the price prolly combined. If they do it at 75% as good as graham its worth the $ savings.

After I looked at the #'s I would keep Hill. I still don't think he's that good but for the price he could stay. He wouldn't be guaranteed a starting spot bc I would draft a safety and try to sign Dawan Landry. If I signed Landry, Dawkins would be cut for sure he is due 6mil. this yr thats way to much.

Correll Buckhalter: sorry would cut him no matter what, he's not that good and someone said he's are best RB hahahaha when?! I would keep white over him, but if we sign williams both could be gone.

Russ Hochstein: straight out sucked couldn't keep a starting job..A lot better options out there for a backup. If he is starting we are in trouble up front.

Jamal Williams: paid 5mil in 2011, not sure about him in 4-3 he has never played it. I think 5 mil is to much for an avg. DT who is one play away from being on IR. Addressing DT in draft and in FA.

Nate Jones: All I did was see him get beat in coverage last year...a lot of fans keep talking about we need front 7 help and I agree...but our secondary is in VERY bad shape besides champ. Cox could be in jail, Thomson is below avg and young. Cassius Vaughn below avg. young, Chevis Jackson below avg. young, Andre' Goodman needs to stay healthy, David Bruton nothing more than a special teamer, Darcel McBath always hurt, Kyle McCarthy see Bruton....We dont have much talent in the secondary we need help big time. Nate Jones is not good if he's making more than 2mil he's gotta go.
This needs to be addressed in draft and in FA big time there are some CB available in free agency who aren't special but are better than what we have. Could get them at a good price to...we need more speed too.

Lonnie Paxton-1000% cut, just makes way to much money to do what he does. nothing more to say.

[zbeg]

Graham is not best blocking TE in the NFL......he's top 5 at best top 10 for sure.


I don't think the consensus is with you on this one. For example:

http://nfl-facts-and-rumors.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22475988/23195463?tag=coverlist_active;coverlist_footer

(written before the season)

Relevant excerpt:

Since we’re on the topic, I’ll take this opportunity to give props to Broncos veteran Daniel Graham, who is far and away the best blocking tight end in the NFL.

Certainly it's one person's opinion, but it's an example of how he's regarded around the league, and my own personal observation is in line with that. He's certainly not "top 5 at best." Top 1 at best, top 3 at worst at this point.

[I Eat Staples]

Should be titled "players not to cut." That would be a much smaller list.

[rcsodak]

I say denver should just go after all the big name FA's only. I mean, surely no other team would want them so they'll be dirt cheap!
Right?


:coffee:
^^ no longer coffee
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[silkamilkamonico]

Missed the late 90s, did you?

Who did we add in the late 90's that became a foundation for our future?

[cuzz4169]

I don't think the consensus is with you on this one. For example:

http://nfl-facts-and-rumors.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22475988/23195463?tag=coverlist_active;coverlist_footer

(written before the season)

Relevant excerpt:

Since we’re on the topic, I’ll take this opportunity to give props to Broncos veteran Daniel Graham, who is far and away the best blocking tight end in the NFL.

Certainly it's one person's opinion, but it's an example of how he's regarded around the league, and my own personal observation is in line with that. He's certainly not "top 5 at best." Top 1 at best, top 3 at worst at this point.

hahahaha who is Andy Benoit???!!! hahahaha

Graham is not the same player he was 3yrs ago. Doesn't matter my point is why pay him almost 5mil a season.

[zbeg]

Who did we add in the late 90's that became a foundation for our future?

Not sure if you were aware of this, but the Broncos won a Super Bowl or two in the late 90s.


Someone please tell me when Denver plans on actually "building" a quality football team, because I haven't seen it in almost 20 years.

I mean, I know that there was a lot going on at the time, what with the Lewinsky scandal and the dot com industry exploding and all, but the Broncos did actually build a quality football team in the late 90s. I'm not making it up. Check wikipedia.

[cuzz4169]

I say denver should just go after all the big name FA's only. I mean, surely no other team would want them so they'll be dirt cheap!
Right?


:coffee:
^^ no longer coffee
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Yea since I named all the top free agents in this thread.....:confused:

[silkamilkamonico]

Not sure if you were aware of this, but the Broncos won a Super Bowl or two in the late 90s.



I mean, I know that there was a lot going on at the time, what with the Lewinsky scandal and the dot com industry exploding and all, but the Broncos did actually build a quality football team in the 90s. I'm not making it up. Check wikipedia.


Winning a SuperBowl would indicate that you already have a solid foundation in place. The pieces that became a solid foundation for those SuperBowls were added in the early to middle 90's, not late 90's.

[cuzz4169]

Should be titled "players not to cut." That would be a much smaller list.

so if your the GM you keep the same 4-12 team? come on man gotta make some changes. Since we have so many blue chip players on our team.

[zbeg]

Winning a SuperBowl would indicate that you already have a solid foundation in place. The pieces that became a solid foundation for those SuperBowls were added in the early to middle 90's, not late 90's.

Math question: Were the early to middle 90s in the last twenty years?

[rcsodak]

Yea since I named all the top free agents in this thread.....:confused:
You're new here....its early. :coffee:,
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[cuzz4169]

You're new here....its early. :coffee:,
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new?

[silkamilkamonico]

Math question: Were the early to middle 90s in the last twenty years?

Chronoligcal quesiton: What came first, the early to mid 90's or the late 90's?

The early 90's is most definetely "almost 20 years".

[rcsodak]

new?

Here last year? Sorry....you're new to me.
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[cuzz4169]

Here last year? Sorry....you're new to me.
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march 2009 is sign up...but have been a member since 2007 for some reason when forum switched I had to redo account. not a lot of posts just like to read.

[zbeg]

Chronoligcal quesiton: What came first, the early to mid 90's or the late 90's?

The early 90's is most definetely "almost 20 years".

1994 starters:
QB John Elway
HB Leonard Russell
FB Aaron Craver
WR Anthony Miller
WR Derek Russell
TE Shannon Sharpe
LT Gary Zimmerman
LG John Melander
C Dave Widell
RG Brian Habib
RT Kirk Scafford

DE Shane Dronett
DT Ted Washington
DT Harald Hasselbach
DE Simon Fletcher
LB Mike Criel
LB Karl Mecklenburg
LB Elijah Alexander
CB Ben Smith
CB Ray Crockett
SS Steve Atwater
FS Dennis Smith

Yep, that's basically the same roster that won those two Super Bowls three and four years later. No talent acquisition or building necessary. They had all the pieces in place!

[I Eat Staples]

so if your the GM you keep the same 4-12 team? come on man gotta make some changes. Since we have so many blue chip players on our team.

I was saying the opposite. If the players not to cut is a smaller list than the players to cut, I'm obviously making changes. My point was that there are very few players on this team worth keeping.

[bcbronc]

I don't think the semantics are especially important to his point.

we haven't built a good team in too ****** long.

[GEM]

march 2009 is sign up...but have been a member since 2007 for some reason when forum switched I had to redo account. not a lot of posts just like to read.

Doesn't matter when you became a member. Your opinion is just as valuable as someone who has been here for 2 years or more.

[silkamilkamonico]

1994 starters:
QB John Elway
HB Leonard Russell
FB Aaron Craver
WR Anthony Miller
WR Derek Russell
TE Shannon Sharpe
LT Gary Zimmerman
LG John Melander
C Dave Widell
RG Brian Habib
RT Kirk Scafford

DE Shane Dronett
DT Ted Washington
DT Harald Hasselbach
DE Simon Fletcher
LB Mike Criel
LB Karl Mecklenburg
LB Elijah Alexander
CB Ben Smith
CB Ray Crockett
SS Steve Atwater
FS Dennis Smith

Yep, that's basically the same roster that won those two Super Bowls three and four years later. No talent acquisition or building necessary. They had all the pieces in place!

The finishing pieces coming in the mid 90's with Terrell Davis (95'), Ed McCaffery (95'), Rod Smith ('94), and probably a few other key components added n the mid 90's.

What were you saying about Denver building a quality foundation for their future in the late 90's again?

[rcsodak]

march 2009 is sign up...but have been a member since 2007 for some reason when forum switched I had to redo account.
Like I said, sorry. Dates dont show up on mobile software.
Just sayin that from this point forward, no stone will be left unturned as far as FA's are concerned.
If they're still breathing........ :lol:
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[cuzz4169]

I was saying the opposite. If the players not to cut is a smaller list than the players to cut, I'm obviously making changes. My point was that there are very few players on this team worth keeping.

ahh sorry misunderstood. and agree

[silkamilkamonico]

I don't think the semantics are especially important to his point.

we haven't built a good team in too ****** long.

I would have to say the one exception to this was the draft picks acuiring Cutler/Marshall/Scheffler/Royal/Clady, etc... whcih is basically now a moot point. It doesn't help that Shanahan did such a good job of building an offense with young potential while at the same time completely bombing on defense, or that bowlen hired McDaniels who came in and completely tore that up.

Ugh, for a split second I thought Denver was heading in the right direction b actually building through the draft, then came the McDaniels debacle, and we are arguably worse off then we've been in a long long time.

[zbeg]

I was saying the opposite. If the players not to cut is a smaller list than the players to cut, I'm obviously making changes. My point was that there are very few players on this team worth keeping.

I disagree - many of the players aren't good enough to be starters on a quality team, but it's not either/or. A quality backup who is thrown into a starting position isn't going to look very good, but that doesn't mean he should be outright released, given that his salary isn't too high.

Take for example, a guy like Bobby Engram or Brandon Stokley or Darren Sproles. He's a valuable guy to have on the team and can provide good depth and/or contribute to the club. But if he's your starting WR, you're in trouble.

The Broncos have a lot of backups who can contribute, but they were put into starting positions, and that didn't go so well. It doesn't mean that these guys can't contribute as backups.

The thing is when you cut a player, you have to find a replacement. Cutting someone doesn't automatically mean you're going to find someone better, which I think people tend to fall into the trap of thinking that way. "He's not performing up to his standards. Cut him." Okay, but if he's still the best available option, how is that helping the team?

Certainly many moves need to be made in order for this team to be competitive, but I don't think "blow up all the players and start over" is the way to go. That hardly ever works anyway. A better way to go is "find quality starters and convert (a portion of) the current starters into quality backups."

[cuzz4169]

Doesn't matter when you became a member. Your opinion is just as valuable as someone who has been here for 2 years or more.

why thanks...man I feel better lol j/k...But I always did wonder why I had to start a new account when forum changed.

[cuzz4169]

I disagree - many of the players aren't good enough to be starters on a quality team, but it's not either/or. A quality backup who is thrown into a starting position isn't going to look very good, but that doesn't mean he should be outright released, given that his salary isn't too high.

Take for example, a guy like Bobby Engram or Brandon Stokley or Darren Sproles. He's a valuable guy to have on the team and can provide good depth and/or contribute to the club. But if he's your starting WR, you're in trouble.

The Broncos have a lot of backups who can contribute, but they were put into starting positions, and that didn't go so well. It doesn't mean that these guys can't contribute as backups.

The thing is when you cut a player, you have to find a replacement. Cutting someone doesn't automatically mean you're going to find someone better, which I think people tend to fall into the trap of thinking that way. "He's not performing up to his standards. Cut him." Okay, but if he's still the best available option, how is that helping the team?

Certainly many moves need to be made in order for this team to be competitive, but I don't think "blow up all the players and start over" is the way to go. That hardly ever works anyway. A better way to go is "find quality starters and convert (a portion of) the current starters into quality backups."

I agree but some of these backups are making a shit ton of money....but if your signing players and drafting players your only allowed 53 so someone has to go.

[zbeg]

The finishing pieces coming in the mid 90's with Terrell Davis (95'), Ed McCaffery (95'), Rod Smith ('94), and probably a few other key components added n the mid 90's.

What were you saying about Denver building a quality foundation for their future in the late 90's again?

Yeah, just a difference of 16 starters between the 1994 roster and the SB XXXII roster...that's all. Just a few pieces here and there. Minor tweaks, really. I also consider "changing 70% of the starting lineup" not really significant, too.

[rcsodak]

Doesn't matter when you became a member. Your opinion is just as valuable as someone who has been here for 2 years or more.
Did somebody say something to evoke that remark, GEM?
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[zbeg]

I agree but some of these backups are making a shit ton of money....but if your signing players and drafting players your only allowed 53 so someone has to go.

Sure, salary's a concern, although we don't know if there will be a cap. If Bowlen is willing to pay a backup 20% more than his perceived market value (or whatever the amount/threshold is) and not have it affect the quality of the team elsewhere because there's no salary cap, then it's simply a matter of player quality.

Obviously with a cap, it's a different question entirely, but I wouldn't advocate going out and releasing players en masse until we know what the financial structure of the new CBA is going to look like.

[silkamilkamonico]

Yeah, just a difference of 16 starters between the 1994 roster and the SB XXXII roster...that's all. Just a few pieces here and there. Minor tweaks, really. I also consider "changing 70% of the starting lineup" not really significant, too.

I think it's very significant. I'm not the one trying to argue that 1994-95 somehow falls into the "late 90's" time frame.

[rcsodak]

Yeah, just a difference of 16 starters between the 1994 roster and the SB XXXII roster...that's all. Just a few pieces here and there. Minor tweaks, really. I also consider "changing 70% of the starting lineup" not really significant, too.

Good points but 16 players IS 1/3 of an active roster. Granted, McD did better than that in his short tenure........ ; )
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[weazel]

it's easy to cut players... harder to find useful replacements.

[bcbronc]

I would have to say the one exception to this was the draft picks acuiring Cutler/Marshall/Scheffler/Royal/Clady, etc... whcih is basically now a moot point. It doesn't help that Shanahan did such a good job of building an offense with young potential while at the same time completely bombing on defense, or that bowlen hired McDaniels who came in and completely tore that up.

Ugh, for a split second I thought Denver was heading in the right direction b actually building through the draft, then came the McDaniels debacle, and we are arguably worse off then we've been in a long long time.

agreed on Clady. :beer:

[zbeg]

I think it's very significant. I'm not the one trying to argue that 1994-95 somehow falls into the "late 90's" time frame.

You misunderstood; the late 90s showed the results of the mid 90s rebuilding. Both of these time periods occurred in the last twenty years.

HTH.

[silkamilkamonico]

You misunderstood; the late 90s showed the results of the mid 90s rebuilding. Both of these time periods occurred in the last twenty years.

HTH.

Thanks for basically restating my original comment. Denver wasn;t building anything in the late 90's. It was basically already built. The whole argument all along has been Denver trying to build something, not Denver already being rebuild, which they are very far from.

[rcsodak]

Thanks for basically restating my original comment. Denver wasn;t building anything in the late 90's. It was basically already built. The whole argument all along has been Denver trying to build something, not Denver already being rebuild, which they are very far from.

Now THAT^ ^^ people is how you debate as adults. No nannynannynoonering necessary.
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[zbeg]

Thanks for basically restating my original comment. Denver wasn;t building anything in the late 90's. It was basically already build. The whole argument all along has been Denver trying to build something, not Denver already being rebuild, which they are very far from.

Well, ignoring bad math for the moment, I don't agree with that, either.

Teams can get by with deficiencies at some positions and still contend for a SB (look at Green Bay's running game or Pittsburgh's awful o-line this year) - unlike the mid-90s when you had loaded teams like the Cowboys and 49ers who really didn't have any weaknesses anywhere, that's not the case these days.

So, the threshold of roster quality is lower in order to be in SB contention.

Much depends on how the young players will develop - assuming that they do indeed develop reasonably, how far off are the Broncos?

The most important position of course is QB, and enough reams have been written about Tebow, his potential, etc. It's certainly not unreasonable to say that Tebow has the potential to develop into the kind of QB who can play well enough to have the team in SB contention.

WR looks to be a very deep position and is certainly a strength of the team, and among one of the better WR units in the league, especially if Thomas can stay healthy and continue to improve his route-running.

Jury is still out (though coming in) on Moreno. He's shown flashes of talent, but has been inconsistent - though once the o-line was healthy in the latter part of the season, Moreno's production was second among all running backs after Maurice Jones-Drew over that time period.

The o-line needs some work for sure, but going back to ZBS plays to Clady's strengths. Harris may or may not come back. Unsure about the rookies, though they are rookies and they played well at times, and not so well in others.

The offense needs a couple of pieces for sure (and is pretty reliant on the development of Tebow), but it's not in awful shape.

The defense is much more of a question, of course.

Goodman is serviceable at CB. Obviously the other CB position is set. Dumervil will hopefully be back to 100%, providing a huge boost there. Ayers had flashes at points during the season; maybe moving him to this natural DE position will help. We'll call the other DE position a question mark for now.

If the Broncos draft Fairley, he'll obviously be expected to be the anchor of the defensive line - same with Bowers. Bowers/Dumervil or Fairley/Dumervil is a huge upgrade from the Vickerson/Williams/Bannan meh-fest from last year.

With Dumervil/1strounder/D.J. Williams/Champ Bailey as the guys on the defense, there's opportunity to pick up guys in the draft and free agency. Also, if just one of Cox, Thompson, and Mays continue to play well, that would be a big boost there as well.

I'm certainly not saying it's going to all happen this year; it likely won't. And some of these guys might not pan out. But with two good drafts and a little luck with injuries/personnel development, the Broncos could be right in the mix. Even if, say, the safety position isn't very good or if the linebacking corps is sub-par, you don't need to have everything in place in order to win a Super Bowl anymore.

The Broncos have work to do, but the future doesn't strike me as particularly bleak, either.

[GEM]

You're new here....its early. :coffee:,
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Did somebody say something to evoke that remark, GEM?
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Yep.

[bcbronc]

Yep.

he's just trying to add to the intelligent debate he laments is missing these days.

[GEM]

he's just trying to add to the intelligent debate he laments is missing these days.

I've always wondered....is football talk ever intelligent? I mean, you're talking about 11 guys running around in some pads and a helmet trying to brutally stop the other 11 guys on the other side of the field, where in most cases they use their bodies as battering rams. How intelligently can you discuss such a thing? :confused:


:lol:

[broncofaninfla]

By that same logic, if Champ Bailey is so good, why didn't that show in Denver's pass defense?

It takes more than one player performing at a high level to make a unit productive.

Also, blocking is important in the passing game, of course, where the Broncos were 7th in the NFL.

7th in the NFL yet 4-12. Agreed it takes more than one player and thanks to Mcd we need more than one player. The scheme will improve under Fox but we will need to upgrade the talent in the running game as well. Def not the most pressing need, not in a long shot, but the talent can be upgraded in the running game and Graham along with it.

[Lonestar]

Graham is hardly "terrible." He's the best blocking tight end in the NFL. That's why the Broncos signed him - nobody had any illusions of him being Shannon Sharpe, and he still commanded a lot of money for a reason (and if the Broncos didn't give him that kind of money, some other team would have; nobody thought he was overpaid when he signed the contract with Denver).

The guy is a beast of a blocker and hopefully every now and again will catch a ball or two. That's a valuable player to have.

actually lots of folks had the illusion that he would be a huge target as a TE.

but then most believed in mikey the GM..

[spikerman]

actually lots of folks had the illusion that he would be a huge target as a TE.

but then most believed in mikey the GM..

Are you sure you want to criticize Shanahan the GM vs. McDaniels the GM, especially when it comes to TEs? After all, McD was the one who traded two third round picks to trade up to draft a TE who had 12 career catches in college. That's only 12 more than you and me.

Even Quinn was shocked. He thought he might have to come into the league as a free agent. Of course, none of this matters since neither Shanahan nor McDaniels have anything to do with the Broncos anymore, but I thought it was interesting.

[Lonestar]

Are you sure you want to criticize Shanahan the GM vs. McDaniels the GM, especially when it comes to TEs? After all, McD was the one who traded two third round picks to trade up to draft a TE who had 12 career catches in college. That's only 12 more than you and me.

Even Quinn was shocked. He thought he might have to come into the league as a free agent. Of course, none of this matters since neither Shanahan nor McDaniels have anything to do with the Broncos anymore, but I thought it was interesting.

IF you want to argue mikey the GM fine but you will lose BIG time..

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?teamId=1400&type=team

Just tell me all about how many day one picks made it past their rookie contracts in DEN.

I already know them but I suspect you do not..

GEt back to me it should be a very short list.

[spikerman]

IF you want to argue mikey the GM fine but you will lose BIG time..

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?teamId=1400&type=team

Just tell me all about how many day one picks made it past their rookie contracts in DEN.

I already know them but I suspect you do not..

GEt back to me it should be a very short list.

I'm sure his record would look a lot better if his replacement hadn't jettisoned several of them. Besides, the book is still out on McD. He wasn't around long enough to see which rookies made it past their original contracts. For the record, I would take Shanahan's football resume over McDaniels' any day of the week.

I didn't mean to contribute to the hijacking of the thread. If this discussion needs to be continued we can probably find any of the hundreds of other McDaniels vs Shanahan threads.

[BeefStew25]

IF you want to argue mikey the GM fine but you will lose BIG time..

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?teamId=1400&type=team

Just tell me all about how many day one picks made it past their rookie contracts in DEN.

I already know them but I suspect you do not..

GEt back to me it should be a very short list.

I am sorry you hate the man that was coach during our 2 years of epic glory.

Throw your phone into a blender!

[Lonestar]

Well, ignoring bad maindeed develop reasonably, how far off are the Broncos?
The most important position of course is QB, and enough reams have been written about Tebow,

The Broncos have work to do, but the future doesn't strike me as particularly bleak, either.

Pretty good post optimistic dont let the negative nannies get you down.
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[shank]

NAte jones needs to go. Dude is a liability. Graham is a tackle-helper. He's ******* chad mustard with a big ass paycheck. I loled at graham's feeble attemlts to contribute to the passing game many time this season... Dudes hands are made out of stone and coated in ky jelly.

Id be fine seeing hill go if we upgrade, which is possible through fa... I love the fa depth at te and safety this year.

mercades and atogwe make shank happy camper.

[BeefStew25]

Pretty good post optimistic dont let the negative nannies get you down.
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A run-on sentence is a sentence in which two or more independent clauses (i.e., complete sentences) are joined without appropriate punctuation or conjunction. It is generally considered to be a grammatical error though it is occasionally used in literature and may be used as a rhetorical device. An example of a run-on is a comma splice, in which two independent clauses are joined with a comma without an accompanying coordinating conjunction.[1][2] Some grammarians exclude comma splices from the definition of a run-on sentence,[3] though this does not imply that such usage is acceptable.

The mere fact that a sentence is long does not make it a run-on sentence; sentences are run-ons only when they contain more than one complete idea. A run-on sentence can be as short as four words—for instance: I drive she walks. In this case there are two complete ideas (independent clauses): two subjects paired with two (intransitive) verbs. So as long as clauses are punctuated appropriately, a writer can assemble multiple independent clauses in a single sentence; in fact, a properly constructed sentence can be extended indefinitely.

[dogfish]

Pretty good post optimistic dont let the negative nannies get you down.
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yea, gotta watch out for those negative ninnies-- they travel in packs around here, like hyenas. . .

[Timmy!]

NAte jones needs to go. Dude is a liability. Graham is a tackle-helper. He's ******* chad mustard with a big ass paycheck. I loled at graham's feeble attemlts to contribute to the passing game many time this season... Dudes hands are made out of stone and coated in ky jelly.

Id be fine seeing hill go if we upgrade, which is possible through fa... I love the fa depth at te and safety this year.

mercades and atogwe make shank happy camper.

I would crap rainbows.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

7th in the NFL yet 4-12. Agreed it takes more than one player and thanks to Mcd we need more than one player. The scheme will improve under Fox but we will need to upgrade the talent in the running game as well. Def not the most pressing need, not in a long shot, but the talent can be upgraded in the running game and Graham along with it.

Yeah, calling our passing offense 7th in the NFL is as misleading as saying NASCAR drivers drive a long way during a race. Sure it's 500 miles, but it's in a circle. Sure our passing game was throwing up 300 ypg, but where are the associated points and wins?

Empty stats. Other than Wins and Losses, the only stats/ranks that truly matter are scoring offense and scoring defense seeing as how the only stat that matters is the final score of the game...

[Timmy!]

Yeah, calling our passing offense 7th in the NFL is as misleading as saying NASCAR drivers drive a long way during a race. Sure it's 500 miles, but it's in a circle. Sure our passing game was throwing up 300 ypg, but where are the associated points and wins?

Empty stats. Other than Wins and Losses, the only stats/ranks that truly matter are scoring offense and scoring defense seeing as how the only stat that matters is the final score of the game...

This is true, however, it does show that the Broncos do have some talent at WR and our running game and defense sucked hind tit all year. Now I'm not Orton groper, but we did pass the ball last year....if we could only run and have a halfway decent defense we wouldn't have sucked (see 2009 and the 8-8 record).

I trust Foxy, and pray we are moving the right direction as a franchise. Signing Champ was huge. All I can hope is that Tebow is the winner I think he is, we draft D early and often that pans out, and we get a bit of luck.

[rcsodak]

Yep.

Wow. Reach much? I was informing him of what's in store.
But don't let facts come between us. :smooch:
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[rcsodak]

he's just trying to add to the intelligent debate he laments is missing these days. its not?
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[rcsodak]

NAte jones needs to go. Dude is a liability. Graham is a tackle-helper. He's ******* chad mustard with a big ass paycheck. I loled at graham's feeble attemlts to contribute to the passing game many time this season... Dudes hands are made out of stone and coated in ky jelly.

Id be fine seeing hill go if we upgrade, which is possible through fa... I love the fa depth at te and safety this year.

mercades and atogwe make shank happy camper.
Mercedes was tagged.
still happy?
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[I Eat Staples]

I disagree - many of the players aren't good enough to be starters on a quality team, but it's not either/or. A quality backup who is thrown into a starting position isn't going to look very good, but that doesn't mean he should be outright released, given that his salary isn't too high.

Take for example, a guy like Bobby Engram or Brandon Stokley or Darren Sproles. He's a valuable guy to have on the team and can provide good depth and/or contribute to the club. But if he's your starting WR, you're in trouble.

The Broncos have a lot of backups who can contribute, but they were put into starting positions, and that didn't go so well. It doesn't mean that these guys can't contribute as backups.

The thing is when you cut a player, you have to find a replacement. Cutting someone doesn't automatically mean you're going to find someone better, which I think people tend to fall into the trap of thinking that way. "He's not performing up to his standards. Cut him." Okay, but if he's still the best available option, how is that helping the team?

Certainly many moves need to be made in order for this team to be competitive, but I don't think "blow up all the players and start over" is the way to go. That hardly ever works anyway. A better way to go is "find quality starters and convert (a portion of) the current starters into quality backups."

I'm not saying to make all of those cuts this season. All I'm saying is, we aren't winning with this roster, and in the long term we have very few valuable players on our roster. Very few.

[GEM]

Wow. Reach much? I was informing him of what's in store.
But don't let facts come between us. :smooch:
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He's been here almost a year by his join date....I think he's fully aware of what goes on around here. " :coffee: "

[GEM]

its not?
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So if it's not up to your level of intelligent conversation, and you really don't converse with anyone, instead bark one line bullshit, why come here? I'm sure they have some Albert Einstein forums out there....your monkey and his hair would fit right in. :D

[zbeg]

I'm not saying to make all of those cuts this season. All I'm saying is, we aren't winning with this roster, and in the long term we have very few valuable players on our roster. Very few.

But my point is that you need quality backups - this isn't Madden with injuries turned off. And a lot of the guys who are currently starters would make for good backups. The Broncos need to find quality starters - but if you cut the quality backups, then you need to find BOTH. Why create all that extra work for absolutely no reason?

[Lonestar]

I'm sure his record would look a lot better if his replacement hadn't jettisoned several of them. Besides, the book is still out on McD. He wasn't around long enough to see which rookies made it past their original contracts. For the record, I would take Shanahan's football resume over McDaniels' any day of the week.

I didn't mean to contribute to the hijacking of the thread. If this discussion needs to be continued we can probably find any of the hundreds of other McDaniels vs Shanahan threads.
Yeah mikeys day one draft choices would be up 2 if Josh did not dump a couple of attitude issues that is if TS was a day one choice. And that is doubtful.
Now I may have missed one that was not a starter but i doubt it. Please tell me if I did.
Try again.
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[spikerman]

Yeah mikeys day one draft choices would be up 2 if Josh did not dump a couple of attitude issues that is if TS was a day one choice. And that is doubtful.
Now I may have missed one that was not a starter but i doubt it. Please tell me if I did.
Try again.
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Let's try this. Why don't you enlighten me on McDaniels' first day successes?

[Lonestar]

Let's try this. Why don't you enlighten me on McDaniels' first day successes?

Not sure I have alluded to Joshes success, but I have stated numerous times that mikey s screwed the pooch for a decade.

How can you remotely defend his record of day one failures.
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[zbeg]

Not sure I have alluded to Joshes success, but I have stated numerous times that mikey s screwed the pooch for a decade.

How can you remotely defend his record of day one failures.
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We don't have enough information on any McDaniels draft at this point to make any definitive conclusions. It takes a good three years before we really know enough to evaluate a draft class. So - we have to wait on this particular point.

[Lonestar]

We don't have enough information on any McDaniels draft at this point to make any definitive conclusions. It takes a good three years before we really know enough to evaluate a draft class. So - we have to wait on this particular point.

I guess that Josh is held to a standard that even mikey was not.

Outside of a couple of LB and one rb very few if any of his daft choices started year one day one. And of them only Wilson and DJ got second contract after their rookie contracts were done. Oh I forgot about price but then he was only good after that when some one was riding his lazy ass.

I suspect that Moreno, Quinn and Ayers not to mention that Tebow and DT aol be stars and at least starters.

If that is the case he will have surpassed all of mikeys hits in two years.

Time will tell.
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[spikerman]

Not sure I have alluded to Joshes success, but I have stated numerous times that mikey s screwed the pooch for a decade.

How can you remotely defend his record of day one failures.
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And if you search way back you'll see that when Shanahan was in charge I was critical of many of his personnel decisions. That being said, none of the players that McDaniels has drafted have made an impact yet. Yes, I hear about how it takes three years for a player to develop, but that's not always the case. Often, high draft picks are impact players immediately. McDaniels had 4 first round picks (5 if you count Alphonso Smith) and so far none of them have done a thing. You would think that at least one of those picks would have done something by now.

It may be early to judge McDaniels' picks, but it's not promising and it doesn't say much for him that those rookie contracts have outlived his tenure as coach.


Sorry, I had to include this in the response


I guess that Josh is held to a standard that even mikey was not.

Outside of a couple of LB and one rb very few if any of his daft choices started year one day one. And of them only Wilson and DJ got second contract after their rookie contracts were done. Oh I forgot about price but then he was only good after that when some one was riding his lazy ass.

I suspect that Moreno, Quinn and Ayers not to mention that Tebow and DT aol be stars and at least starters.

If that is the case he will have surpassed all of mikeys hits in two years.

Time will tell.

Ok, if starters is now the standard instead of being signed to a 2nd contract then we're talking about a whole other issue. He (Shanahan) actually drafted quite a few starters in the early rounds, but when he was at his sharpest he found some late round (4th and higher) gems.


Ok, I really am done hijacking this thread. If there is another one out there that's more along this subject matter I would be happy to continue the discussion there.

[spikerman]

We don't have enough information on any McDaniels draft at this point to make any definitive conclusions. It takes a good three years before we really know enough to evaluate a draft class. So - we have to wait on this particular point. I went ahead and included a response to this in my answer to Jr's post.

[Lonestar]

And if you search way back you'll see that when Shanahan was in charge I was critical of many of his personnel decisions. That being said, none of the players that McDaniels has drafted have made an impact yet. Yes, I hear about how it takes three years for a player to develop, but that's not always the case. Often, high draft picks are impact players immediately. McDaniels had 4 first round picks (5 if you count Alphonso Smith) and so far none of them have done a thing. You would think that at least one of those picks would have done something by now. may be early to judge McDaniels' picks, but it's not promising and it doesn't say much for him that those rookie contracts have outlived his tenure as coach.
Sorry, I had to include this in the response Ok, if starters is now the standard instead of being signed to a 2nd contract then we're talking about a whole other issue. He (Shanahan) actually drafted quite a few starters in the early rounds, but when he was at his sharpest he found some late round (4th and higher) gems. Ok, I really am done hijacking this thread. If there is another one out there that's more along this subject matter I would be happy to continue the discussion there.
Really nothing to discuss.
Joshes was never picks were not part of my discussion till you brought them into play.

I was pointing out that mikey wasted about 30 some odd first day picks by notmgerronf keepers and starters with his.
Top rightfully pointed out it was to soon to tell. I agreed.

Whereas mikeys almost complete failure of dafting
Mikes that never got a second contract here and for the vast majority of them when cut or traded failed at there next stop also.
That is abject fail.
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[BeefStew25]

I got dumber reading that.

No, really, blood and brain goo is running out of my ears.

This is a word: notmgerronf

[SOCALORADO.]

I got dumber reading that.

No, really, blood and brain goo is running out of my ears.

This is a word: notmgerronf

I believe its actually the last name to a player Shanny drafted in the 1st round many years ago.

Willie Notmgerronf

He was traded to SF for John Engleberger.

[dogfish]

I believe its actually the last name to a player Shanny drafted in the 1st round many years ago.

Willie Notmgerronf

He was traded to SF for John Engleberger.

that pick still pisses me off!

[rcsodak]

So if it's not up to your level of intelligent conversation, and you really don't converse with anyone, instead bark one line bullshit, why come here? I'm sure they have some Albert Einstein forums out there....your monkey and his hair would fit right in. :D

:offtopic:
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[KCL]

So if it's not up to your level of intelligent conversation, and you really don't converse with anyone, instead bark one line bullshit, why come here? I'm sure they have some Albert Einstein forums out there....your monkey and his hair would fit right in. :D

:lol:

I've met rc...that isn't just some hairy monkey...that IS rc...:D

[SOCALORADO.]

that pick still pisses me off!

Ditto.

[rcsodak]

:lol:

I've met rc...that isn't just some hairy monkey...that IS rc...:D

Did we monkey around?
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[I Eat Staples]

Not sure I have alluded to Joshes success, but I have stated numerous times that mikey s screwed the pooch for a decade.

How can you remotely defend his record of day one failures.
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How can you remotely defend any single move McDumbass has made in his unfortunate stay here?

[BeefStew25]

How can you remotely defend any single move McDumbass has made in his unfortunate stay here?

Willie Notmgerronf

[TXBRONC]

I believe its actually the last name to a player Shanny drafted in the 1st round many years ago.

Willie Notmgerronf

He was traded to SF for John Engleberger.


that pick still pisses me off!

What position did he play because for the life of me I can't remember? :D

[LTC Pain]

Doesn't matter when you became a member. Your opinion is just as valuable as someone who has been here for 2 years or more.

Amen! Post count or date of membership are completely irrelevant on an opinion board.

[Lonestar]

Doesn't matter when you became a member. Your opinion is just as valuable as someone who has been here for 2 years or more.


So if it's not up to your level of intelligent conversation, and you really don't converse with anyone, instead bark one line bullshit, why come here? I'm sure they have some Albert Einstein forums out there....your monkey and his hair would fit right in. :D

What is good for one, is not good for all.

Hypocrisy much.

[Nickademus]

Who did we add in the late 90's that became a foundation for our future?

trevor price
al wilson
matt lepsis
john mobley
olandis gary

mobley was 96 but everyone else was durring the superbowl runs.