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View Full Version : Is Doom a better DE in a 4/3 or OLB in a 3/4?



broncofaninfla
02-20-2011, 10:52 AM
With Denver switching back to the 4/3, what will Dooms value be? In the 4/3 Doom was a liability against the run and a solid at best pass rusher. Doom was at his best as a OLB in Nolans 3/4 defense IMO. I'd put his trade value at a 1st round pick as a 3/4 OLB but a 3rd or 4th round pick as a 4/3 DE.
Opinions?

broncofaninfla
02-20-2011, 10:58 AM
With Denver switching back to a 4/3 there is more value in trading him for a high pick than keeping him for the 4/3 scheme IMO

Northman
02-20-2011, 11:14 AM
He was better in the 3/4 however its hard to say whether he was used correctly before Nolan got here even while in the 4/3. I would still keep him as long as we have a DC who is bright enough to get him in position to be as dominant as he was in the 3/4.

silkamilkamonico
02-20-2011, 11:42 AM
I agree. Get Bowers, and trade Dooms. IMHO His contract is way to high for what his value will be as a 4-3 DE.

underrated29
02-20-2011, 11:49 AM
It is pretty obvious which defense he performs better in.


But..

1. It is not smart to trade away our ONLY pass rushing threat. It is actually stupid.

2. No one is going to trade for him anyway.

3. Josh mcdaniels has really left his mark on this team

atwater27
02-20-2011, 12:10 PM
If you would have put a 3rd option that said he is equal in both systems, I would have chosen that one. I don't understand this liability against the run thing in JUST the 4-3. Dude is small and can get walloped by pulling guards and tackles in both the 4-3 AND the 3-4. He is still an awesome pass rusher in both systems. And he holds his own against the run better than people think. Y'all are talking like he get ran over every running play.

broncofaninfla
02-20-2011, 12:36 PM
Doom is at best a situational pass rusher in a 4/3. That's all he has shown to date in the 4/3 scheme.

OrangeHoof
02-20-2011, 01:59 PM
Doom's a great pass rusher, period. Playing him at 3-4 OLB allows him to be on the field more and be less of a liability against the run. He's too small to be a three-down defensive end. He has some value in both schemes but he has more value in a 3-4.

Ravage!!!
02-20-2011, 02:29 PM
The NFL is all about passing, and getting TO The passer. If Doom can get TO the passer... that has HIGH value. Don't get rid of one of the best at doing that. You can NOT have premier pass rushers and expect to pay low salaries.

Montana Battlin Bear
02-20-2011, 03:20 PM
Well, Fox stated that Our defense will automatically get a lot better with Doom back next year and Fox decided to switch to a 4-3.

I think someone with a little more knowledge than us about football answered that question too.

dogfish
02-20-2011, 03:27 PM
this shit makes my head hurt so baaaaad!



:frusty: :frusty:

Lonestar
02-20-2011, 03:44 PM
With Denver switching back to the 4/3, what will Dooms value be? In the 4/3 Doom was a liability against the run and a solid at best pass rusher. Doom was at his best as a OLB in Nolans 3/4 defense IMO. I'd put his trade value at a 1st round pick as a 3/4 OLB but a 3rd or 4th round pick as a 4/3 DE.
Opinions?

He was a liability against the rush in both schemes. Plain and simple.

As for trade value it would be the same as any one trading for him would not be dumb enough to place Jim at de unless they have 3 other stellar DL types.

Only we would be that stupid.
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Ziggy
02-20-2011, 04:18 PM
Doom was used correctly by Nolan in the 3-4 defense. I have faith that Fox will use Doom correctly in the 4-3 defense. I'll wait and see exactly how he's used in the new scheme before I make a judgement.

rcsodak
02-20-2011, 05:21 PM
I agree. Get Bowers, and trade Dooms. IMHO His contract is way to high for what his value will be as a 4-3 DE.

Kinda my point, in another thread.

His last season played, he led the NFL in sacks...in the 34.

He was average in the 43, his rookie year.

IF you're going to trade him, wouldn't it be better to do it now, to a 34 team, than wait and watch him have another mediocre season in the 43...and getting a year older?

Of course, it still is going to depend on who he has for teammates on the Dline. If he has some studs that can garner some semblance of attention, then maybe he'll have another great year.

But I bet there's a 34 team out there who would love Doom....and give up a high draft pick. Problem is, with no CBA..... :coffee:

rcsodak
02-20-2011, 05:23 PM
It is pretty obvious which defense he performs better in.


But..

1. It is not smart to trade away our ONLY pass rushing threat. It is actually stupid.

2. No one is going to trade for him anyway.

3. Josh mcdaniels has really left his mark on this team

1/2, ok.

But did McD hurt him? :confused:

rcsodak
02-20-2011, 05:25 PM
Doom is at best a situational pass rusher in a 4/3. That's all he has shown to date in the 4/3 scheme.

So he's gonna be the most expensive "situational pass rusher" in the league?

Montana Battlin Bear
02-20-2011, 05:34 PM
Kinda my point, in another thread.

His last season played, he led the NFL in sacks...in the 34.

He was average in the 43, his rookie year.

IF you're going to trade him, wouldn't it be better to do it now, to a 34 team, than wait and watch him have another mediocre season in the 43...and getting a year older?

Of course, it still is going to depend on who he has for teammates on the Dline. If he has some studs that can garner some semblance of attention, then maybe he'll have another great year.

But I bet there's a 34 team out there who would love Doom....and give up a high draft pick. Problem is, with no CBA..... :coffee:

Wrong. His best year was his Sophomore year he had 12.5 sacks in a 4-3. The next year he had 5. His rookie year he didn't start one game and was used as a situational passrusher. His sophomore season he started every single game and had his best year in a 4-3.

Like I have said before, Fox loves Doom, he praised him numerous times in the interview process, and then they switch to the 4-3. He obviously has plans for Doom to be utilized in a 4-3

underrated29
02-20-2011, 06:51 PM
1/2, ok.

But did McD hurt him? :confused:

lol, no..

I meant mcdaniels trades all of our best players, he left his mark on us, because now the fans want to trade doom. that is what i meant.


-------

in no relation, lets also clear one thing up. Doom is NOT a liability against the run. He may not be the best run stuffing beast in the game. But he is not a liabiltiy. Jarvis Moss is a liability, antonio cromartie is a liability. Doom is far from a liability!

Slick
02-20-2011, 07:01 PM
I agree. Get Bowers, and trade Dooms. IMHO His contract is way to high for what his value will be as a 4-3 DE.



Yeah, let's trade a guy we KNOW can rush the passer for a guy that might bust.

I want what you're smoking silk.

Lonestar
02-20-2011, 07:55 PM
lol, no..

I meant mcdaniels trades all of our best players, he left his mark on us, because now the fans want to trade doom. that is what i meant.


-------

in no relation, lets also clear one thing up. Doom is NOT a liability against the run. He may not be the best run stuffing beast in the game. But he is not a liabiltiy. Jarvis Moss is a liability, antonio cromartie is a liability. Doom is far from a liability!

wow I did not hear that Josh Traded Clady and Champ Did I miss the press release? IIRC Josh traded jay after he demanded to be traded and Pat instructed him to. Actually got 3 draft picks for him and a starting QB.

Marshall yep traded that immature spouse beater for 2# 2's and TS well to say he was one of our better players well that is a stretch..

All of which were traded to a team that they wanted to go to.

As for Doom being a liababilty agaisnt the run you better watch some game tapes and look at the stats to see where some of those teams were running when they set some NFL records when we were in the bottom 5 in rushing defense... they were not running away from him.

Lonestar
02-20-2011, 07:56 PM
Wrong. His best year was his Sophomore year he had 12.5 sacks in a 4-3. The next year he had 5. His rookie year he didn't start one game and was used as a situational passrusher. His sophomore season he started every single game and had his best year in a 4-3.

Like I have said before, Fox loves Doom, he praised him numerous times in the interview process, and then they switch to the 4-3. He obviously has plans for Doom to be utilized in a 4-3

IIRC Doom lead the league in 2009 with 17.5 sacks which unless they are teaching math differently now days is more that 12.5.

Ziggy
02-20-2011, 08:08 PM
IIRC Doom lead the league in 2009 with 17.5 sacks which unless they are teaching math differently now days is more that 12.5.

I believe he was alluding to his best year in a 4-3 defense, when he had 12.5 sacks.

Lonestar
02-20-2011, 08:28 PM
I believe he was alluding to his best year in a 4-3 defense, when he had 12.5 sacks.

Ok I can almost read that into the post.

Danke for clearing that up.

underrated29
02-20-2011, 08:28 PM
wow I did not hear that Josh Traded Clady and Champ Did I miss the press release? IIRC Josh traded jay after he demanded to be traded and Pat instructed him to. Actually got 3 draft picks for him and a starting QB.

Marshall yep traded that immature spouse beater for 2# 2's and TS well to say he was one of our better players well that is a stretch..

All of which were traded to a team that they wanted to go to.

As for Doom being a liababilty agaisnt the run you better watch some game tapes and look at the stats to see where some of those teams were running when they set some NFL records when we were in the bottom 5 in rushing defense... they were not running away from him.




No one is saying we didnt do well with our players trades or anything else.


However, Josh mcdaniels DID HIMSELF trade- Jay Cutler, Brandon Marshall, Tony Scheffler, Alphonzo smith, numerous draft picks, and he tried unsuccessfully to trade Ryan Harris. That is a hell of a lot of trading in less than 2 YEARS!!!


And Doom is not the reason that the broncos Run defense has been pathetic the last 5 years. There are 10 other players on the defense.


Also- you should check some things out JR. 1 year, doom broke his finger and missed a ton of games. RUN DEFENSE STILL SUCKED

Last year Doom missed the entire year- RUN DEFENSE STILL SUCKED. Yes, last in the league. Try again amigo.

Lonestar
02-20-2011, 08:37 PM
No one is saying we didnt do well with our players trades or anything else.


However, Josh mcdaniels DID HIMSELF trade- Jay Cutler, Brandon Marshall, Tony Scheffler, Alphonzo smith, numerous draft picks, and he tried unsuccessfully to trade Ryan Harris. That is a hell of a lot of trading in less than 2 YEARS!!!


And Doom is not the reason that the broncos Run defense has been pathetic the last 5 years. There are 10 other players on the defense.


Also- you should check some things out JR. 1 year, doom broke his finger and missed a ton of games. RUN DEFENSE STILL SUCKED

Last year Doom missed the entire year- RUN DEFENSE STILL SUCKED. Yes, last in the league. Try again amigo.


You teade what you have to to get better, wheter it be from a attitude standpoint or just a lousy player.

All of those trades were because the players sucked in the scheme or had lousy attitudes.

as for harris I wishe dhe was able to unload his sickly ass.


he has started in just a little more half the games he has been in the league for 64 games starts 34.

http://www.nfl.com/players/ryanharris/profile?id=HAR534109

decent player while on the field but nothing to write home about. Never gonna be an all pro..

I'd be surprised if he is a bronco this coming year and even more surprised if he starts every game.


Yep your correct the defense has sucked. but Doom is still a liability on run defense..

but then it has sucked for along time..

PAINTERDAVE
02-20-2011, 08:51 PM
Doom's huge contract is likely gonna make it imposible to trade him.

Fox likes him... time will tell...
we WILL be seeing what happens with Doom in the 4-3.

rcsodak
02-20-2011, 09:38 PM
Wrong. His best year was his Sophomore year he had 12.5 sacks in a 4-3. The next year he had 5. His rookie year he didn't start one game and was used as a situational passrusher. His sophomore season he started every single game and had his best year in a 4-3.

Like I have said before, Fox loves Doom, he praised him numerous times in the interview process, and then they switch to the 4-3. He obviously has plans for Doom to be utilized in a 4-3

I stand corrected. I didn't have his career info available at the time.

What makes anybody think he'll excel, after only 5 sacks in his 3rd year in the 43? I'm cornfused.

Montana Battlin Bear
02-20-2011, 10:26 PM
I stand corrected. I didn't have his career info available at the time.

What makes anybody think he'll excel, after only 5 sacks in his 3rd year in the 43? I'm cornfused.

We don't know how he will come out and perform. But our head coach loves him and I am sure he will have a way to utilize his all pro capabilities.

rcsodak
02-20-2011, 10:58 PM
We don't know how he will come out and perform. But our head coach loves him and I am sure he will have a way to utilize his all pro capabilities.

Just remember, his "all pro capabilities" comes from when he was an OLB in the 34.

I do agree with your initial sentence, though.

underrated29
02-20-2011, 11:20 PM
I stand corrected. I didn't have his career info available at the time.

What makes anybody think he'll excel, after only 5 sacks in his 3rd year in the 43? I'm cornfused.



He broke his finger that year, IIRC....So that is why he only had 5. He missed a bunch of games with a broken finger.

Lonestar
02-20-2011, 11:26 PM
He broke his finger that year, IIRC....So that is why he only had 5. He missed a bunch of games with a broken finger.

actually he played in all games and started 15.

http://www.nfl.com/players/elvisdumervil/profile?id=DUM179959

some thought that they (other OCs) got the book on him and it took the OLB position in the 3-4 got him free of being double teamed.

atwater27
02-21-2011, 07:57 AM
wow I did not hear that Josh Traded Clady and Champ Did I miss the press release? IIRC Josh traded jay after he demanded to be traded and Pat instructed him to. Actually got 3 draft picks for him and a starting QB.

Marshall yep traded that immature spouse beater for 2# 2's and TS well to say he was one of our better players well that is a stretch..

All of which were traded to a team that they wanted to go to.

As for Doom being a liababilty agaisnt the run you better watch some game tapes and look at the stats to see where some of those teams were running when they set some NFL records when we were in the bottom 5 in rushing defense... they were not running away from him.

thank you for crapping on yet another thread with your nauseating, repetitive diatribes.

rcsodak
02-21-2011, 08:19 AM
He broke his finger that year, IIRC....So that is why he only had 5. He missed a bunch of games with a broken finger.
Eh..just an excuse. Put a club on his hand and get him back out there. Oh wait! He was hurt? And he was hurt last year? CHINA DOLL ALERT! Trade him while they can!!
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rcsodak
02-21-2011, 08:21 AM
thank you for crapping on yet another thread with your nauseating, repetitive diatribes.No, you din't! :eek:
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HORSEPOWER 56
02-21-2011, 08:43 AM
Doom is a pass rusher, pure and simple. Even when playing in our hybrid 3-4 under Mike Nolan (which was more a 5-2 anyway), Doom got the majority of his 17 sacks from rushing IN A THREE POINT STANCE, HAND IN THE DIRT, FROM THE DE POSITION, typically in a nickel 4-man front - not in a traditional stand-up OLB mode with some kind of elaborate blitz scheme like Harrison/Woodley/Clay Matthews does. The aforementioned guys often rely on the blitz packages created by their DCs in making them the "free rusher" and get a lot of sacks by rushing completely unblocked.

Doom is one of the best in the league at whipping his guy. He excels at beating the hell out of Offensive Tackles off the snap (from either the left or right DE position because he often rushes from either side) with his quickness, and abnormally long arms for his size. He also has the full repertoire of pass-rushing moves developed and can change up his style from snap to snap. That's why he's so dangerous. He's almost a carbon copy of Dwight Freeney. The fact that he can rush, when everyone knows he's coming, and still be effective makes him elite in my book.

Nobody will ever accuse him of being strong against the run because he's small and light for a DE. On the flip side, he showed no improvement vs the run when he was moved to OLB. He also showed that he isn't the guy you want in space covering a RB or a TE.

Let Doom be what he is - a hand-in-the-dirt, rush upfield, QB's nightmare. He is easily one of the best pass rushers in the league and that value isn't limited by what scheme he's playing in. Keep him and build the rest of the D-line with him to make him more effective at what he does best.

GO DOOM! :defense:

rcsodak
02-21-2011, 08:51 AM
Doom is a pass rusher, pure and simple. Even when playing in our hybrid 3-4 under Mike Nolan (which was more a 5-2 anyway), Doom got the majority of his 17 sacks from rushing IN A THREE POINT STANCE, HAND IN THE DIRT, FROM THE DE POSITION, typically in a nickel 4-man front - not in a traditional stand-up OLB mode with some kind of elaborate blitz scheme like Harrison/Woodley/Clay Matthews does. The aforementioned guys often rely on the blitz packages created by their DCs in making them the "free rusher" and get a lot of sacks by rushing completely unblocked.

Doom is one of the best in the league at whipping his guy. He excels at beating the hell out of Offensive Tackles off the snap (from either the left or right DE position because he often rushes from either side) with his quickness, and abnormally long arms for his size. He also has the full repertoire of pass-rushing moves developed and can change up his style from snap to snap. That's why he's so dangerous. He's almost a carbon copy of Dwight Freeney. The fact that he can rush, when everyone knows he's coming, and still be effective makes him elite in my book.

Nobody will ever accuse him of being strong against the run because he's small and light for a DE. On the flip side, he showed no improvement vs the run when he was moved to OLB. He also showed that he isn't the guy you want in space covering a RB or a TE.

Let Doom be what he is - a hand-in-the-dirt, rush upfield, QB's nightmare. He is easily one of the best pass rushers in the league and that value isn't limited by what scheme he's playing in. Keep him and build the rest of the D-line with him to make him more effective at what he does best.

GO DOOM! :defense:

Not antagonizing, but link? I would like to see the breakdown of his sacks, 56.
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HORSEPOWER 56
02-21-2011, 09:18 AM
Not antagonizing, but link? I would like to see the breakdown of his sacks, 56.
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Um, link to what? My own eyes? If you know of some place that actually catalogs whether a guy rushed from a DE 3-point stance or a standing LB position when they get a sack, let me know.

Maybe, if I cared that much, I could try to dig up some youtube footage of Doom getting sacks or something, but that's the only way I know of to
"prove" anything with "evidence" other than me telling you what I saw.

HORSEPOWER 56
02-21-2011, 09:26 AM
Here you go, found this on youtube. Highlights from the Cleveland game (Elvis' 4 sack game). The first sack, Elvis is standing up at ROLB. The remaining three, he's lined up at LDE with his hand in the dirt.

In the first sack, it's an all out blitz and he works his way through traffic to get the sack. In the other three, he just beats the RT cold and gets through almost cleanly rushing from the DE spot with no blitz to help him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUPPCrsPvHQ

He looks much better as a DE, to me.

rcsodak
02-21-2011, 10:08 AM
Um, link to what? My own eyes? If you know of some place that actually catalogs whether a guy rushed from a DE 3-point stance or a standing LB position when they get a sack, let me know.

Maybe, if I cared that much, I could try to dig up some youtube footage of Doom getting sacks or something, but that's the only way I know of to
"prove" anything with "evidence" other than
me telling you what I saw.
K. Like I said, not doubting you....just thought you found it somewhere. I know I could never remember all 16 games from last year, and who did what/where and how. Age n all, ya know.
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TXBRONC
02-21-2011, 10:11 AM
Yeah, let's trade a guy we KNOW can rush the passer for a guy that might bust.

I want what you're smoking silk.

Bowers in my top three players I would like most for Denver to draft with 2nd overall pick he's third on my list if I have to rank them even so I think it would be silly to trade Dumervil for the very reason cited. We know what we have in Dumervil we would have no idea what we have with Bowers. One great season in the college ranks doesn't mean he'll be a monster in the pros.

Hell we still don't know what we have with Ayers. I like the kid but we've only seen glimpses of what he might be. So if we traded away Dumervil we end with two defensive ends that have no idea if they're going to get the job done.

Northman
02-21-2011, 10:34 AM
Doom is a pass rusher, pure and simple. Even when playing in our hybrid 3-4 under Mike Nolan (which was more a 5-2 anyway), Doom got the majority of his 17 sacks from rushing IN A THREE POINT STANCE, HAND IN THE DIRT, FROM THE DE POSITION, typically in a nickel 4-man front - not in a traditional stand-up OLB mode with some kind of elaborate blitz scheme like Harrison/Woodley/Clay Matthews does. The aforementioned guys often rely on the blitz packages created by their DCs in making them the "free rusher" and get a lot of sacks by rushing completely unblocked.

Doom is one of the best in the league at whipping his guy. He excels at beating the hell out of Offensive Tackles off the snap (from either the left or right DE position because he often rushes from either side) with his quickness, and abnormally long arms for his size. He also has the full repertoire of pass-rushing moves developed and can change up his style from snap to snap. That's why he's so dangerous. He's almost a carbon copy of Dwight Freeney. The fact that he can rush, when everyone knows he's coming, and still be effective makes him elite in my book.

Nobody will ever accuse him of being strong against the run because he's small and light for a DE. On the flip side, he showed no improvement vs the run when he was moved to OLB. He also showed that he isn't the guy you want in space covering a RB or a TE.

Let Doom be what he is - a hand-in-the-dirt, rush upfield, QB's nightmare. He is easily one of the best pass rushers in the league and that value isn't limited by what scheme he's playing in. Keep him and build the rest of the D-line with him to make him more effective at what he does best.

GO DOOM! :defense:


Best post of the thread.

Bottom line as some have eluded too. If Fox believes in Doom and believes he will work in his system than im behind him 100%. Ive seen enough of Doom to be a believer and with the right DC we've seen the kind of impact Doom can have. Just get the right players around him and he will succeed just like any other star.

rcsodak
02-21-2011, 10:50 AM
For all the talk of 1yr wonders, inconsistencies, etc when talking of some of these college players, I have to ask. What was Doom? Who knew of him ahead of time? He has 2yrs worth of college stats, tho he played his senior year. 8/17 were his sack totals in a conference better known for its basketball. Both sides of the argument posed by the questions can use these points...... I'm just sayin.
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Montana Battlin Bear
02-21-2011, 10:57 AM
Doom was projected by many to be a first round draft pick I remember reading several mock drafts that had us taking Doom in the first round but as the draft got closer his stock fell immensely because of his height. Once again scouts didn't take into how good a kid could play football but his physical attributes. Thank God he fell to the 4th round and we were able to get him.

rcsodak
02-21-2011, 12:10 PM
Doom was projected by many to be a first round draft pick I remember reading several mock drafts that had us taking Doom in the first round but as the draft got closer his stock fell immensely because of his height. Once again scouts didn't take into how good a kid could play football but his physical attributes. Thank God he fell to the 4th round and we were able to get him.
Just proof positive of mock worthlessness.
:salute:
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TXBRONC
02-21-2011, 12:12 PM
For all the talk of 1yr wonders, inconsistencies, etc when talking of some of these college players, I have to ask. What was Doom? Who knew of him ahead of time? He has 2yrs worth of college stats, tho he played his senior year. 8/17 were his sack totals in a conference better known for its basketball. Both sides of the argument posed by the questions can use these points...... I'm just sayin.
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So you're saying that having just one good year in college is the same as having two dominate years in college? I don't think so and from what I've read talent evaluators are more leery of guys who have just one good year under there belt verse a guy who has multiple years. The only real reason Dumervil didn't go in the first round is because of his height not because of the conference he played. If that's case explain how Abomi Okoye who went same school was drafted in the first round, or Dwight Freeney who also played in conference noted for basketball or Clady who also played in the WAC. If Dumervil was 6'1" like Freeney he would more than likely have been first rounder.

underrated29
02-21-2011, 12:16 PM
actually he played in all games and started 15.

http://www.nfl.com/players/elvisdumervil/profile?id=DUM179959

some thought that they (other OCs) got the book on him and it took the OLB position in the 3-4 got him free of being double teamed.




aha. Thanks for clearing that up.


Still this was the year though that he broke his finger right?

rcsodak
02-21-2011, 12:18 PM
So you're saying that having just one good year in college is the same as having two dominate years in college? I don't think so and from what I've read talent evaluators are more leery of guys who have just one good year under there belt verse a guy who has multiple years. The only real reason Dumervil didn't go in the first round is because of his height not because of the conference he played. If that's case explain how Abomi Okoye who went same school was drafted in the first round, or Dwight Freeney who also played in conference noted for basketball or Clady who also played in the WAC. If Dumervil was 6'1" like Freeney he would more than likely have been first rounder.

So 1" makes a 1 become a 4?
And 8sacks is considered 'dominating' in college?
Just clarifying, Tx.
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TXBRONC
02-21-2011, 12:38 PM
So 1" makes a 1 become a 4?
And 8sacks is considered 'dominating' in college?
Just clarifying, Tx.
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What you said makes no sense.

rcsodak
02-21-2011, 12:45 PM
What you said makes no sense.
Sure it does Tx. And youre the last person to be able to say that, Tx. Lol

You said 6'1" and he's a 1st rd pick. He's listed as 6'....thus the question of 1".
You also said he dominated in college, right? So I asked if 8sacks is considered dominating.
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Slick
02-21-2011, 02:06 PM
Sure it does Tx. And youre the last person to be able to say that, Tx. Lol

You said 6'1" and he's a 1st rd pick. He's listed as 6'....thus the question of 1".
You also said he dominated in college, right? So I asked if 8sacks is considered dominating.
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Where are you getting 8 sacks?

He had 6 in one game against Kentucky, a record that still stands today, and 32 for his career at Louisville.

TXBRONC
02-21-2011, 02:15 PM
Where are you getting 8 sacks?

He had 6 in one game against Kentucky, a record that still stands today, and 32 for his career at Louisville.

I was sure he also had the single season college record of 20 sacks for a season but I can't find all his stats.

At any rate criticizing what he did in college is freaking pissing contest that is absolutely useless. He's on our team and we know for fact the guy can play when he is healthy.

underrated29
02-21-2011, 02:17 PM
if memory serves correct, which i think it will.

Doom coming out of college was the leading sack getter that year. I do not thin any other college player had more than he...

Could be wrong, never checked the numbers, but that is what I remember hearing, which is why i was baffled he lasted until the 4th round.

LordTrychon
02-21-2011, 02:20 PM
I think he had 22...

(Senior year)

Trying to find it... only thing I came up with said 17 and 8... that doesn't sound right though...

He's usually listed as 5'11". He looks up to Freeney because Freeney is also considered shorter for a DE, if I'm not mistaken.

TXBRONC
02-21-2011, 02:21 PM
if memory serves correct, which i think it will.

Doom coming out of college was the leading sack getter that year. I do not thin any other college player had more than he...

Could be wrong, never checked the numbers, but that is what I remember hearing, which is why i was baffled he lasted until the 4th round.

That's his senior year he lead the nation in sacks.

rcsodak
02-21-2011, 02:25 PM
Where are you getting 8 sacks?

He had 6 in one game against Kentucky, a record that still stands today, and 32 for his career at Louisville.

I found 8/17...110tackles. Anyway, Tx said he dominated in college. So did he, before his Sr yr?
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TXBRONC
02-21-2011, 02:34 PM
I think he had 22...

(Senior year)

Trying to find it... only thing I came up with said 17 and 8... that doesn't sound right though...

He's usually listed as 5'11". He looks up to Freeney because Freeney is also considered shorter for a DE, if I'm not mistaken.

Freeney is listed at 6'1" IIRC scouts criticized him for that.

That's all could find on Dumervil stat but I'm pretty sure that is wrong. Here's his bio from Denver Broncos home page.


http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/roster/Elvis-Dumervil/a4dbb5af-d1ab-4e6e-a48b-9aeb259e097d

COLLEGE: Dumervil finished his career at the University of Louisville ranked second on the school’s all-time sacks list with 32 and third on its all-time tackles-for-losses chart with 42.5... Played 44 career games (24 starts) at Louisville and posted 151 tackles (83 solo), 11 forced fumbles, three fumble recoveries, one interception and four pass breakups to go along with 32 sacks (223 yds.)... Earned several national accolades as a senior after a record-setting season that saw the defensive end lead the nation with a school-record 20 sacks (165 yds.) as a 12-game starter... 20 sacks marked the second-highest single-season sack total in NCAA history behind Terrell Suggs’ 24 sacks for Arizona State in 2002... Selected as the Bronko Nagurski Award winner (nation’s best defensive player) and was the Walter Camp Top 10 Player of the Year as well as a first-team All-American (AP) as a senior... Tabbed the Big East Conference Defensive Player of the Year and a finalist for the Vince Lombardi Award (nation’s top lineman) that year... Set an NCAA record with 10 forced fumbles as a senior and totaled 65 tackles (38 solo), one interception, one fumble recovery and four pass breakups... Nine sacks in Louisville’s first two games as a senior set an NCAA record for sacks in consecutive games.

So yes RC he was dominate.

Dean
02-21-2011, 02:42 PM
Freeney is listed at 6'1" IIRC scouts criticized him for that.

That's all could find on Dumervil stat but I'm pretty sure that is wrong. Here's his bio from Denver Broncos home page.



So yes RC he was dominate.


Sounds dominant to me. Isn't he really 5'11"? (I guess Lord Trychon answered that already).

Slick
02-21-2011, 02:43 PM
I found 8/17...110tackles. Anyway, Tx said he dominated in college. So did he, before his Sr yr?
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I'll let you and Tex have at it.

atwater27
02-21-2011, 02:47 PM
Freeney is listed at 6'1" IIRC scouts criticized him for that.

That's all could find on Dumervil stat but I'm pretty sure that is wrong. Here's his bio from Denver Broncos home page.



So yes RC he was dominate.

Even ore impressive than his sack totals in college were his forced fumbles. I mean, that dude was a one man wrecking crew.

TXBRONC
02-21-2011, 02:51 PM
Even ore impressive than his sack totals in college were his forced fumbles. I mean, that dude was a one man wrecking crew.

Dumervil has always had a nose for the ball.

LordTrychon
02-21-2011, 02:54 PM
Even ore impressive than his sack totals in college were his forced fumbles. I mean, that dude was a one man wrecking crew.

I think that was a record that year, too...

rcsodak
02-21-2011, 03:04 PM
I was sure he also had the single season college record of 20 sacks for a season but I can't find all his stats.

At any rate criticizing what he did in college is freaking pissing contest that is absolutely useless. He's on our team and we know for fact the guy can play when he is healthy.

Know what? I had a 10000 word reply to this, explaining the timeline of our discussion, showing I'm not having a" pissing match", etc. But then realized you're in a mood where reasoning is futile.
Have a wonderful day.
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bcbronc
02-21-2011, 03:14 PM
Doom is a pass rusher, pure and simple. Even when playing in our hybrid 3-4 under Mike Nolan (which was more a 5-2 anyway), Doom got the majority of his 17 sacks from rushing IN A THREE POINT STANCE, HAND IN THE DIRT, FROM THE DE POSITION, typically in a nickel 4-man front - not in a traditional stand-up OLB mode with some kind of elaborate blitz scheme like Harrison/Woodley/Clay Matthews does. The aforementioned guys often rely on the blitz packages created by their DCs in making them the "free rusher" and get a lot of sacks by rushing completely unblocked.

Doom is one of the best in the league at whipping his guy. He excels at beating the hell out of Offensive Tackles off the snap (from either the left or right DE position because he often rushes from either side) with his quickness, and abnormally long arms for his size. He also has the full repertoire of pass-rushing moves developed and can change up his style from snap to snap. That's why he's so dangerous. He's almost a carbon copy of Dwight Freeney. The fact that he can rush, when everyone knows he's coming, and still be effective makes him elite in my book.

Nobody will ever accuse him of being strong against the run because he's small and light for a DE. On the flip side, he showed no improvement vs the run when he was moved to OLB. He also showed that he isn't the guy you want in space covering a RB or a TE.

Let Doom be what he is - a hand-in-the-dirt, rush upfield, QB's nightmare. He is easily one of the best pass rushers in the league and that value isn't limited by what scheme he's playing in. Keep him and build the rest of the D-line with him to make him more effective at what he does best.

GO DOOM! :defense:

amen brutha! :salute:

my observations match yours that he got the majority of his 17 sacks on plays he started from a three-point, although I've never found an actual breakdown of it. I'd be surprised if in this day and age no one had taken the time to break it down, but I've never come across it.

This defense needs to do a lot of things to get better, but getting rid of our best pass rusher is certainly not one of them. I agree completely with rc that you need to own the interior of the defense to be effective, but right after that you need a guy that can eat up one on one blocking, and even make plays against a double team, when it comes to getting to the QB.

you just can't overpay for the skill set Doom has, even if he's not going to consistently blow up the enemy's running game. It's great to get a team to 3 and 7 by stuffing the run, but if the QB gets all day to convert those 3rd downs, it don't matter much.

TXBRONC
02-21-2011, 03:30 PM
amen brutha! :salute:

my observations match yours that he got the majority of his 17 sacks on plays he started from a three-point, although I've never found an actual breakdown of it. I'd be surprised if in this day and age no one had taken the time to break it down, but I've never come across it.

This defense needs to do a lot of things to get better, but getting rid of our best pass rusher is certainly not one of them. I agree completely with rc that you need to own the interior of the defense to be effective, but right after that you need a guy that can eat up one on one blocking, and even make plays against a double team, when it comes to getting to the QB.

you just can't overpay for the skill set Doom has, even if he's not going to consistently blow up the enemy's running game. It's great to get a team to 3 and 7 by stuffing the run, but if the QB gets all day to convert those 3rd downs, it don't matter much.

If we can upgrade our interior defensive line Dumervil will be fine.

bcbronc
02-21-2011, 04:01 PM
If we can upgrade our interior defensive line Dumervil will be fine.

I dunno TX, when Doom put up 17 sacks, we didn't have much of an interior line. Same with when he put up 12 in the 43.

I think Doom will be fine, regardless. It's our defense as a whole that needs the upgrade in the middle.

:beer:

vandammage13
02-21-2011, 04:15 PM
I actually think with Doom coming off the injury, along with switching to DE, we probably shouldn't get our hopes too high with him next year. I would temper my optimism on him until he shows otherwise, to avoid what might be a huge letdown. I highly doubt he'll come remotely close to matching his 2009 production.

I think even more troubling, is Ayer's prospects. I'm really thinking he's going to officially be labled a bust after 2011 with the change. We ran a lot of 4-3 last year in Doom's absence, and I didn't really see much from Ayers that impressed me playing in that scheme (or the 3-4 for that matter).

Lonestar
02-21-2011, 04:24 PM
Doom is a pass rusher, pure and simple. Even when playing in our hybrid 3-4 under Mike Nolan (which was more a 5-2 anyway), Doom got the majority of his 17 sacks from rushing IN A THREE POINT STANCE, HAND IN THE DIRT, FROM THE DE POSITION, typically in a nickel 4-man front - not in a traditional stand-up OLB mode with some kind of elaborate blitz scheme like Harrison/Woodley/Clay Matthews does. The aforementioned guys often rely on the blitz packages created by their DCs in making them the "free rusher" and get a lot of sacks by rushing completely unblocked.

Doom is one of the best in the league at whipping his guy. He excels at beating the hell out of Offensive Tackles off the snap (from either the left or right DE position because he often rushes from either side) with his quickness, and abnormally long arms for his size. He also has the full repertoire of pass-rushing moves developed and can change up his style from snap to snap. That's why he's so dangerous. He's almost a carbon copy of Dwight Freeney. The fact that he can rush, when everyone knows he's coming, and still be effective makes him elite in my book.

Nobody will ever accuse him of being strong against the run because he's small and light for a DE. On the flip side, he showed no improvement vs the run when he was moved to OLB. He also showed that he isn't the guy you want in space covering a RB or a TE.

Let Doom be what he is - a hand-in-the-dirt, rush upfield, QB's nightmare. He is easily one of the best pass rushers in the league and that value isn't limited by what scheme he's playing in. Keep him and build the rest of the D-line with him to make him more effective at what he does best.

GO DOOM! :defense:
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atwater27
02-21-2011, 04:25 PM
Stunning insight, JR.

Lonestar
02-21-2011, 04:30 PM
What I tried to say in my post to HP was all of his hand in the dirt sacks were from a flexes spot a couple of yards off the TE/ORT for the most part.

He really lined uP like a real de in a 4-3.
Lets hope that he can do it again.
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Northman
02-21-2011, 05:38 PM
I dunno TX, when Doom put up 17 sacks, we didn't have much of an interior line. Same with when he put up 12 in the 43.

I think Doom will be fine, regardless. It's our defense as a whole that needs the upgrade in the middle.

:beer:

He may be fine but as the year goes on we need to be able to stop the running game. For all the great stuff that Doom does it doesnt matter much in the win column. We still need to get him some massive help there.

vandammage13
02-21-2011, 05:51 PM
He may be fine but as the year goes on we need to be able to stop the running game. For all the great stuff that Doom does it doesnt matter much in the win column. We still need to get him some massive help there.

The FO has their work cut out for them to get the defense turned around. I do think it is possible for us to immediately return to respectability (I'm talking mid to high teens in defensive ranking) next year.

It will take a bit of luck though. We really need to hit 3 home runs in the draft. We can't really afford to have any misses in the first 3 rounds. If we can get Fairley/Bowers for immediate DLine help, a sure tackling stud at MLB, and a solid safety, then things can start looking up very soon. A couple of solid FA pickups and you can have a solid group to work with so long as the D is not overlooked once again this offseason (which there's no way the same mistakes are made this time around with McD gone IMO).

bcbronc
02-21-2011, 06:58 PM
The FO has their work cut out for them to get the defense turned around. I do think it is possible for us to immediately return to respectability (I'm talking mid to high teens in defensive ranking) next year.

It will take a bit of luck though. We really need to hit 3 home runs in the draft. We can't really afford to have any misses in the first 3 rounds. If we can get Fairley/Bowers for immediate DLine help, a sure tackling stud at MLB, and a solid safety, then things can start looking up very soon. A couple of solid FA pickups and you can have a solid group to work with so long as the D is not overlooked once again this offseason (which there's no way the same mistakes are made this time around with McD gone IMO).
part of me is okay putting MLB off until next year. there's just something about a draft year without any 1st round talent at the position that puts me off.

It's also probably the most drop-and-play position in the NFL, especially when you factor in pass blocking at RB. if we can improve into the teens for next draft, we'll be in the ideal spot to get the top 1-2 rated MLB in a year that (iirc) is supposed to be much deeper at the position. If we use a 2nd this year, hard to justify using a #1 next.

DL and S, on the other hand, both tend to take some seasoning, so it's a benefit to get them on the roster before looking for our answer at MLB.

rebuild our DL and DS this year, then go into next year with LB at the top of our priority list. (only talking about top 3 picks, 3rd round and on, if LB is BPA, then take him).

TXBRONC
02-22-2011, 07:33 AM
I dunno TX, when Doom put up 17 sacks, we didn't have much of an interior line. Same with when he put up 12 in the 43.

I think Doom will be fine, regardless. It's our defense as a whole that needs the upgrade in the middle.

:beer:

I wasn't trying to say Dumervil wouldn't productive if we continue to have a weak interior line because that's true he's been good even without interior help. What mean is that if we get interior help that should compensate for he perceived weakness against the run.

vandammage13
02-22-2011, 10:22 AM
part of me is okay putting MLB off until next year. there's just something about a draft year without any 1st round talent at the position that puts me off.

It is possible to find a great MLB in the draft in later rounds. In the 4-3, your MLB doesn't need to be an athletic beast as much as he needs to be smart (able to diagnose plays quickly), and a tough sure tackler. You can find guys that fit that bill in the middle rounds. A gem like Zach Thomas (who was a 4th or 5th rounder I think) can be found that late in the draft, you just have to do your homework. In order for your MLB to be successful, you need to invest your higher draft picks on DTs.

Ravage!!!
02-22-2011, 10:51 AM
I believe MLB and DT are neck-n-neck as far as a dire need for the defense. The draft is more than one round, but it seems that many seem to believe that its a one-pick day and the draft is done. We aren't going to use every pick on DL, not every pick is going towards defense, and those picks made after the 1st round are just as important.

TXBRONC
02-22-2011, 10:55 AM
I believe MLB and DT are neck-n-neck as far as a dire need for the defense. The draft is more than one round, but it seems that many seem to believe that its a one-pick day and the draft is done. We aren't going to use every pick on DL, not every pick is going towards defense, and those picks made after the 1st round are just as important.

If we didn't draft a MLB I think we would still ok if we can take care of the defensive line first.

vandammage13
02-22-2011, 11:24 AM
If we didn't draft a MLB I think we would still ok if we can take care of the defensive line first.

There are a few keys to having a successful 4-3 defense. You first need a dominant DT (Draft Fairley), a sure tackling MLB (none on the roster as of now), a good pass rusher at DE (Hopefully Doom is able to be that guy again), and a lockdown corner (resign Champ?). A ball hawking safety is a plus, and OLB is probably the least important in the 4-3.

The importance of DT and MLB cannot be understated in the 4-3 scheme. Fairley is more of a disrupt the backfield penetrating type of DT, so we need to sign a fat guy that can clog the middle to play beside him. This will allow the MLB to roam free. If Elvis can return to form then that will free things up even more.

In my opinion, our first priority in the draft needs to be DLine help, then a cerebral sure tackling MLB, followed by a safety. Resigning Champ should be a high priority as well. If the FO can make this happen in the offseason then we won't be too far from returning to respectability.

TXBRONC
02-22-2011, 12:13 PM
There are a few keys to having a successful 4-3 defense. You first need a dominant DT (Draft Fairley), a sure tackling MLB (none on the roster as of now), a good pass rusher at DE (Hopefully Doom is able to be that guy again), and a lockdown corner (resign Champ?). A ball hawking safety is a plus, and OLB is probably the least important in the 4-3.

The importance of DT and MLB cannot be understated in the 4-3 scheme. Fairley is more of a disrupt the backfield penetrating type of DT, so we need to sign a fat guy that can clog the middle to play beside him. This will allow the MLB to roam free. If Elvis can return to form then that will free things up even more.

In my opinion, our first priority in the draft needs to be DLine help, then a cerebral sure tackling MLB, followed by a safety. Resigning Champ should be a high priority as well. If the FO can make this happen in the offseason then we won't be too far from returning to respectability.

Linebackers in any scheme are important. The way I see at least two of our six picks should be spent on the defensive line preferably our two. I think the linebacking corp we have right will work if push comes to shove. Because I see at least positions we need to fill that rank even with linebacker. I see tight end and right tackle as ranking just as important as middle linebacker. If Denver sees a tight end or right tackle that they have evaluated as clearly better than the best available middle linebacker I would rather fill that need first. For that matter if there is safety that is clearly than linebacker take him instead.

rcsodak
02-22-2011, 12:14 PM
Stunning insight, JR.
As is yours. How about spreading your harrassing posts around.....why should Ls have all the fun. :coffee:
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rcsodak
02-22-2011, 12:23 PM
There are a few keys to having a successful 4-3 defense. You first need a dominant DT (Draft Fairley), a sure tackling MLB (none on the roster as of now), a good pass rusher at DE (Hopefully Doom is able to be that guy again), and a lockdown corner (resign Champ?). A ball hawking safety is a plus, and OLB is probably the least important in the 4-3.

The importance of DT and MLB cannot be understated in the 4-3 scheme. Fairley is more of a disrupt the backfield penetrating type of DT, so we need to sign a fat guy that can clog the middle to play beside him. This will allow the MLB to roam free. If Elvis can return to form then that will free things up even more.

In my opinion, our first priority in the draft needs to be DLine help, then a cerebral sure tackling MLB, followed by a safety. Resigning Champ should be a high priority as well. If the FO can make this happen in the offseason then we won't be too far from returning to respectability.

http://mobile.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=226475

; )
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Lonestar
02-22-2011, 01:24 PM
As is yours. How about spreading your harrassing posts around.....why should Ls have all the fun. :coffee:
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Thanks did not see it.
Amazing is it not.

For some reason this iPhone changes words and in that case managed to erase my whole post. Which I Did not see until it came back to me. That was why I followed up with my next post.

Kind of find it sad when I get a response like that a minute after I sent it.

Sounds like OCD or maybe even trolling.
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bcbronc
02-22-2011, 03:12 PM
I believe MLB and DT are neck-n-neck as far as a dire need for the defense. The draft is more than one round, but it seems that many seem to believe that its a one-pick day and the draft is done. We aren't going to use every pick on DL, not every pick is going towards defense, and those picks made after the 1st round are just as important.

in the same vein, building a top 10 defence won't be done in just one draft year either. We need help at all three levels (DL,LB,DS) as well as RT, TE, change of pace RB. Can't address all that.

If something is going to be neglected, I'd rather let Mays and DJ have a crack at MLB for this year, then prioritize it next when the crop should be better.

atwater27
02-22-2011, 07:02 PM
As is yours. How about spreading your harrassing posts around.....why should Ls have all the fun. :coffee:
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Oh blow it out your monkey ass.:coffee:

atwater27
02-22-2011, 07:04 PM
Thanks did not see it.
Amazing is it not.

For some reason this iPhone changes words and in that case managed to erase my whole post. Which I Did not see until it came back to me. That was why I followed up with my next post.

Kind of find it sad when I get a response like that a minute after I sent it.

Sounds like OCD or maybe even trolling.
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Actually, compared to your other posts that actually have content, the blank ones are more insightful. Troll that.

rcsodak
02-23-2011, 12:32 PM
Thanks did not see it.
Amazing is it not.

For some reason this iPhone changes words and in that case managed to erase my whole post. Which I Did not see until it came back to me. That was why I followed up with my next post.

Kind of find it sad when I get a response like that a minute after I sent it.

Sounds like OCD or maybe even trolling.
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Lol. I know what you mean. My Droid does that as well, especially if you delete characters elsewhere in the post.
Still trying to finger this thing out.
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rcsodak
02-23-2011, 12:40 PM
Actually, compared to your other posts that actually have content, the blank ones are more insightful. Troll that.
I forget.....

...whats the thread about again?
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