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rcsodak
02-18-2011, 01:10 PM
I've repeatedly heard on Sirius NFL that a defense needs to have a strong middle up front to be successful in the long run.
In the 34, that means a STUD NT and 2 STUD LB's.
In the 43, 2 STUD DT's and 1 STUD MLB.

With the lastest revelation by Fox (43D), does the team have ANY of the 3? (I was hoping to pose this question before he did, to ask which front was more obvious. Evidently he has more faith in the DL than the LB corp?)
If so, who?
Is there a diamond currently on the roster that's hidden that is yet to be mined?
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underrated29
02-18-2011, 01:27 PM
Dont know, but I def agree with that.


DT, MLB, S....with Hasses at those positions, you can pretty effectively pressure the QB and collapse the pocket (what we have lacked for so long), shut down the run, and be decent against the pass.



sprinkle in some Doom, champ, ayers and and goody..the d imo wont be half bad...but we need 2 DTs, ILb, and S.....which right now- i think we have NONE.

dogfish
02-18-2011, 02:44 PM
yea, we don't have NFL starters at any of those positions. . .

Ravage!!!
02-18-2011, 03:04 PM
We didn't have a strong three at the 34, but I believe the 43 is easier to build. As I was saying in another thread, I think MLB is just as important (if not more) than finding that stud DT. The MLB is the captain and QB of the D. He calls the plays, the audibles and sets the tone.

Using that #2 pick on a DL isn't going to fix this defense. It's going to be the subsequent picks that will make just as much of an impact.

topscribe
02-18-2011, 03:54 PM
I've repeatedly heard on Sirius NFL that a defense needs to have a strong middle up front to be successful in the long run.
In the 34, that means a STUD NT and 2 STUD LB's.
In the 43, 2 STUD DT's and 1 STUD MLB.

With the lastest revelation by Fox (43D), does the team have ANY of the 3? (I was hoping to pose this question before he did, to ask which front was more obvious. Evidently he has more faith in the DL than the LB corp?)
If so, who?
Is there a diamond currently on the roster that's hidden that is yet to be mined?
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I believe that, while Bannan was a rather pedestrian NT/DE in the 3-4, he can
be much better at DT in the 4-3. I could be proven wrong, but I believe he is
starter material there if he has strong support beside him.

I was intrigued by Joe Mays this last season. He really showed flashes, and he
hits like a stray howitzer. No promises, of course, but I wonder just what kind
of upside he would have at MLB . . .

I do, however, believe the Broncos have personnel more conducive to the 4-3.
Put D.J. back at Will, and all the sudden we have a star there. I believe that.
And I believe Haggan would be a better SAM than he has been at any position
he has played in the 3-4.

So it would seem to me the Broncos need one DT and possibly one MLB. Then
we would see a fairly decent defense . . .

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rcsodak
02-18-2011, 04:39 PM
Does Fox have an LB that can cover the middle? Stay with a TE and do more than just tackle him? Hit the hole and meet the rb/stop him/cause a fumble? Consistantly effectively blitz? If not, is there one in the draft?
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hotcarl
02-18-2011, 04:42 PM
i think we should draft pouncey

SmilinAssasSin27
02-18-2011, 07:15 PM
Rookie triangle of death:

_____Martez Wilson______
Marcell Dareus, Marvin Austin

If it's as easy as solidifying a triangle, done. You are welcome. Now what?

dogfish
02-18-2011, 07:22 PM
power triangle?

what we have is more like the bermuda triangle-- pretty much just a black hole of fail. . . :laugh:

cuzz4169
02-18-2011, 08:08 PM
I just read mayock and sapp both said Dareus is the safer pick of the 2 DT's.

cuzz4169
02-18-2011, 08:15 PM
For are defensive front 7 I would like to think outside of the talent we have bc I really only like a couple guys. Doom & Ayers @ DE. Other than that I really believe the rest of our players are avg. Or rotational. But I do wanna c Thomas at DT in the 4-3 could be pretty good at the 3 technique.

PAINTERDAVE
02-18-2011, 08:46 PM
It aint gonna all be perfect after one draft.

Bannan will be good for another year, maybe two...

Lots of those other guys are backups...

Ayers might develop... you all know the list...

but it is gonna be a project over the next 2 or 3 drafts to build a killer defense.

With this crappy CBA/FA situation... we are gonna have to make due with whatever we can snag.

bcbronc
02-18-2011, 08:47 PM
Rookie triangle of death:

_____Martez Wilson______
Marcell Dareus, Marvin Austin

If it's as easy as solidifying a triangle, done. You are welcome. Now what?

???
prosper

rcsodak
02-19-2011, 11:30 PM
For are defensive front 7 I would like to think outside of the talent we have bc I really only like a couple guys. Doom & Ayers @ DE. Other than that I really believe the rest of our players are avg. Or rotational. But I do wanna c Thomas at DT in the 4-3 could be pretty good at the 3 technique.
Doom is an every down DE? Granted he'll be paid like one, but they'll have to give him constant help vs run game. And his pay is too much for situational pass rusher.
And shanny drafted thomas so he has already been a 43 DT.
Maybe they should try for a 1st rd pick for Doom to a 34 team.
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topscribe
02-19-2011, 11:35 PM
Doom is an every down DE? Granted he'll be paid like one, but they'll have to give him constant help vs run game. And his pay is too much for situational pass rusher.
And shanny drafted thomas so he has already been a 43 DT.
Maybe they should try for a 1st rd pick for Doom to a 34 team.
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Remember D.J.'s first year? He made more than good account of himself at Will,
as a rookie. That is his natural position, one he has not been permitted to play
since. If the Broncos are smart and send him back there, then I believe Doom
will have plenty of support on his side. That is how, for instance, the Colts have
gotten by with Freeney for so many years.

But I just don't believe a good defense is built by shipping off its best players . . .

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cuzz4169
02-20-2011, 01:51 PM
Doom is an every down DE? Granted he'll be paid like one, but they'll have to give him constant help vs run game. And his pay is too much for situational pass rusher.
And shanny drafted thomas so he has already been a 43 DT.
Maybe they should try for a 1st rd pick for Doom to a 34 team.
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You can't take a play maker off the field and that's what Doom is. When run at in most of the defensive calls as a 4-3 DE your job is to hold the edge anyways. Doom will be 100% fine as an every down DE in a 4-3. You guys are to concerned about him against the run. There isn't many 12+ sacks a yr guys who excel at both. Be more concerned about the LB behind him making the play than Doom.

gobroncsnv
02-20-2011, 02:02 PM
I was intrigued by Joe Mays this last season. He really showed flashes, and he
hits like a stray howitzer. No promises, of course, but I wonder just what kind
of upside he would have at MLB . . .


-----
Would be interesting to compare Mays' frame to that of Traylor while the Tractor started his career at LB... Mays darn near looks like a DT already. Just askin'... I did like his game when he got a chance last year, but wondering if he's destined to play at a bigger position. Just intriguing to me, is all. We've not yet had as good a DT since Traylor left. Yeah, I include Pryce in that list. No idea whether Mays could make a transition like that, but we could do worse than having somebody around who played as well as Traylor. Pocket crushing DT's are rare, at least in blue and orange.

spikerman
02-20-2011, 02:28 PM
I have seen nothing out of Ayers so far that leads me to believe he's an impact player. That's part of what's scary about Bowers, just like Ayers he was a "one year wonder" in college.

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02-20-2011, 02:41 PM
I have seen nothing out of Ayers so far that leads me to believe he's an impact player. That's part of what's scary about Bowers, just like Ayers he was a "one year wonder" in college.

I just have visions of Bowers being stood up at the LOS and grabbing the RB as
the RB went by. I saw that time and again in his highlights, it seemed. His
HIGHLIGHTS. Frankly, Bowers makes me nervous . . .

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cuzz4169
02-20-2011, 04:12 PM
I just have visions of Bowers being stood up at the LOS and grabbing the RB as
the RB went by. I saw that time and again in his highlights, it seemed. His
HIGHLIGHTS. Frankly, Bowers makes me nervous . . .

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yea I haven't been sold on Bowers...I know you've probably read me saying before I don't know if he will he be any better than Ayers at DE. I think Ayers has a good chance at being a stand out player at the LDE.

We judge Ayers from what he has done at OLB but he's not a OLB it was a big mistake to make him an OLB....so what the hell was the front office thinking when they knew the defense was a 3-4 and other players who fit the 3-4 OLB position were on the board?

I want any of these 4 players in order......Nick Fairley, Marcell Dareus, Von Miller & Patrick Peterson.

Back to Bowers...He just doesn't show explosive moves IMO. He has a great motor non stop player but for a #2 pick I'm not sure he's more than a good player in the NFL. We need a future all-pro player with the #2 pick bc hopefully we don't pick this high again for a long time.

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02-20-2011, 04:33 PM
yea I haven't been sold on Bowers...I know you've probably read me saying before I don't know if he will he be any better than Ayers at DE. I think Ayers has a good chance at being a stand out player at the LDE.

We judge Ayers from what he has done at OLB but he's not a OLB it was a big mistake to make him an OLB....so what the hell was the front office thinking when they knew the defense was a 3-4 and other players who fit the 3-4 OLB position were on the board?

I want any of these 4 players in order......Nick Fairley, Marcell Dareus, Von Miller & Patrick Peterson.

Back to Bowers...He just doesn't show explosive moves IMO. He has a great motor non stop player but for a #2 pick I'm not sure he's more than a good player in the NFL. We need a future all-pro player with the #2 pick bc hopefully we don't pick this high again for a long time.

Yes, that was me. I kept looking for Bowers to EXPLODE off the ball, but all he
seemed to do was to run into the tackle and jostle with him.

As for Von Miller and Peterson, they are at the bottom of my short list. They
are superstars in the making: I have little doubt of that. But those are not
areas of primary need. As Michael Lombardi said, build the lines first. You can
get by with good but not great CBs if you can stop the run and get a pass
rush going.

So for me, it boils down to Dareus and Fairley, in that order . . . Dareus first
because he seems more proven and more consistent. I just think we stick him
in there with Bannan and Thomas, and all the sudden what was a weakness is
now a strength.

IMHO.

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cuzz4169
02-20-2011, 04:34 PM
heres some film of Ayers at DE in college.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAR9Qb3liRs

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02-20-2011, 04:48 PM
heres some film of Ayers at DE in college.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAR9Qb3liRs

While I was looking at your flick, I also ran onto this one:

ZVJYQ99Ufe4


I am so glad we will see Ayers with his hand on the ground this year. From the
D-line, the guy is a STUD. Michael Lombardi said Ayers will come into his own in
his third year . . . well, this will be his third year.

Now, just think about Dareus or Fairley in there with Ayers and Doom . . .

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spikerman
02-20-2011, 04:59 PM
As I've posted a few times before my problem with Ayers has been his effort. Even if he was playing out of position it became obvious that he was taking a large percentage of plays off. He often looked like he was dancing with offensive linemen rather than actually trying to get to the quarterback. Whether he's more comfortable at DE or OLB, unless he can actually play with consistent "want to" he's never going to make much of a difference.

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02-20-2011, 05:10 PM
As I've posted a few times before my problem with Ayers has been his effort. Even if he was playing out of position it became obvious that he was taking a large percentage of plays off. He often looked like he was dancing with offensive linemen rather than actually trying to get to the quarterback. Whether he's more comfortable at DE or OLB, unless he can actually play with consistent "want to" he's never going to make much of a difference.

Somehow, I don't see that happening on Fox's watch . . .

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spikerman
02-20-2011, 05:23 PM
Somehow, I don't see that happening on Fox's watch . . .

-----

I'm going to assume (I know - normally a bad thing to do) that Fox and his staff are going to see the same things on film that a novice like me can pick out. Once that happens I hope that they'll sit young Mr. Ayers down and explain to him that his level of effort is unacceptable.

cuzz4169
02-20-2011, 05:41 PM
As I've posted a few times before my problem with Ayers has been his effort. Even if he was playing out of position it became obvious that he was taking a large percentage of plays off. He often looked like he was dancing with offensive linemen rather than actually trying to get to the quarterback. Whether he's more comfortable at DE or OLB, unless he can actually play with consistent "want to" he's never going to make much of a difference.

Effort is easily questioned when you play out of position and your lost. My take on Ayers he was thinking to much at OLB and wasn't playing instinctively.

cuzz4169
02-20-2011, 06:12 PM
While I was looking at your flick, I also ran onto this one:

ZVJYQ99Ufe4


I am so glad we will see Ayers with his hand on the ground this year. From the
D-line, the guy is a STUD. Michael Lombardi said Ayers will come into his own in
his third year . . . well, this will be his third year.

Now, just think about Dareus or Fairley in there with Ayers and Doom . . .

-----

Yea I really think he will be much better for us at DE...that's why I don't want bowers. Would rather use #2 pick at another position.

spikerman
02-20-2011, 06:15 PM
Effort is easily questioned when you play out of position and your lost. My take on Ayers he was thinking to much at OLB and wasn't playing instinctive.
I hope you're right; however, playing OLB in a 3-4 is not entirely different than playing DE in a 4-3. Most times Ayers was asked to rush the passer in throwing situations and that was when I noticed his "dancing" the most. In those situations I would think that he would understand what he needs to do. If he was confused, that's troubling, but not as troubling as if he didn't put out maximum effort (which is how it looked on tv).

topscribe
02-20-2011, 06:23 PM
I hope you're right; however, playing OLB in a 3-4 is not entirely different than playing DE in a 4-3. Most times Ayers was asked to rush the passer in throwing situations and that was when I noticed his "dancing" the most. In those situations I would think that he would understand what he needs to do. If he was confused, that's troubling, but not as troubling as if he didn't put out maximum effort (which is how it looked on tv).

No, no, Spike . . . there is a significant difference between the two positions . . .

-----

spikerman
02-20-2011, 06:28 PM
No, no, Spike . . . there is a significant difference between the two positions . . .

-----

I understand that schematically there are differences, but when asked to rush the passer, there shouldn't be much confusion simply because a player starts further back from the LoS. Ayers shouldn't have been doing a whole lot of thinking in those situations. I could see it if he had other responsibilities, but coming hard off the edge to get to the QB is what makes great pass rushers from the OLB position and Ayers rarely did that.

cuzz4169
02-20-2011, 07:13 PM
I understand that schematically there are differences, but when asked to rush the passer, there shouldn't be much confusion simply because a player starts further back from the LoS. Ayers shouldn't have been doing a whole lot of thinking in those situations. I could see it if he had other responsibilities, but coming hard off the edge to get to the QB is what makes great pass rushers from the OLB position and Ayers rarely did that.

Yea I understand what your saying...I was really never impressed with Ayers pass rushing ability. Seems he always tried to just bull rush. But honestly there are many different little things different from rushing the passer standing up and rushing the passer with a hand in the dirt. Leverage is one big thing and hopefully just hopefully it helps Ayers a little bit. As minor as it sounds some guys just arent comfortable rushing the passer standing up.

If we get 8-10 sacks out of Ayers with some consistent qb pressure on the yr and stout run D from him I'm happy. I don't see him as a double digit sack guy every yr. Now if we get a stud DT with a healthy Doom, and Ayers is always getting one on one then IDK. We should find out this yr.

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02-20-2011, 08:33 PM
Yea I understand what your saying...I was really never impressed with Ayers pass rushing ability. Seems he always tried to just bull rush. But honestly there are many different little things different from rushing the passer standing up and rushing the passer with a hand in the dirt. Leverage is one big thing and hopefully just hopefully it helps Ayers a little bit. As minor as it sounds some guys just arent comfortable rushing the passer standing up.

If we get 8-10 sacks out of Ayers with some consistent qb pressure on the yr and stout run D from him I'm happy. I don't see him as a double digit sack guy every yr. Now if we get a stud DT with a healthy Doom, and Ayers is always getting one on one then IDK. We should find out this yr.

Maybe that is one reason Ayers might be better from a three-point stance? He
is quicker than he is fast, and it might work out better for him to be closer to
the blocker. If you watch the flick I provided, you will see he has a lot of
moves, but in that video they all come from being down on the D-line . . .

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cuzz4169
02-20-2011, 08:55 PM
Maybe that is one reason Ayers might be better from a three-point stance? He
is quicker than he is fast, and it might work out better for him to be closer to
the blocker. If you watch the flick I provided, you will see he has a lot of
moves, but in that video they all come from being down on the D-line . . .

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Yea I agree.

Lonestar
02-20-2011, 08:56 PM
Remember D.J.'s first year? He made more than good account of himself at Will,
as a rookie. That is his natural position, one he has not been permitted to play
since. If the Broncos are smart and send him back there, then I believe Doom
will have plenty of support on his side. That is how, for instance, the Colts have
gotten by with Freeney for so many years.

But I just don't believe a good defense is built by shipping off its best players . . .

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neither DJ or DOOM are good at stopping the run before they have made yardage, with very few if any tackles for a loss or at the LOS. Their forte is chasing someone down from behind and wrapping up.

IMO we need a stud at DT, MLB and free safety in this draft or FA class to become a decent Defense.

That said I heard today that there will be some 246 FA available once they get a CBA done.

Just one more reason that the players will cave a tad over 16% of the work force wants a fat contract. They will not get it till they have a CBA. money lost each game that they will not get back...

cuzz4169
02-21-2011, 12:40 AM
Wanna fix the run defense here ya go: sign Brandon Mebane or Barry Cofield then Stephen Tulloch (top priority), then Eric Weddle or Dawan Landry and then maybe sign Chad Greenway and trade DJ. ( 100% could get a 3rd for DJ maybe a 2nd if lucky...Saints would be my idea)

Draft: Fairley or Marcell Dareus with first pick. with 2nd rd pick take Kelvin Sheppard or Jarvis Jenkins then with 2nd, 2nd rd pick take Robert Sands or Ahmad Black (very high on black, starter for 3 years...not a big hitter but a solid tackler and is ALWAYS AROUND THE BALL)

rcsodak
02-21-2011, 08:46 AM
Wanna fix the run defense here ya go: sign Brandon Mebane or Barry Cofield then Stephen Tulloch (top priority), then Eric Weddle or Dawan Landry and then maybe sign Chad Greenway and trade DJ. ( 100% could get a 3rd for DJ maybe a 2nd if lucky...Saints would be my idea)

Draft: Fairley or Marcell Dareus with first pick. with 2nd rd pick take Kelvin Sheppard or Jarvis Jenkins then with 2nd, 2nd rd pick take Robert Sands or Ahmad Black (very high on black, starter for 3 years...not a big hitter but a solid tackler and is ALWAYS AROUND THE BALL)
Weddle will stay w/SD. I am thinking with the draft picks spent on S, and the ol' man, they wont spend money there in FA. And no players named Jarvis, especially on the D side are allowed back...at least for now.
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cuzz4169
02-21-2011, 12:38 PM
Weddle will stay w/SD. I am thinking with the draft picks spent on S, and the ol' man, they wont spend money there in FA. And no players named Jarvis, especially on the D side are allowed back...at least for now.
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Could be right about safety, Bruton is terrible at safety, Mcbath has to stay healthy. Dawkins can't be an every down player or we will be hurting in the passing game...Dawkins is a tough choice bc he brings a lot to the team in the locker room and everywhere else except for on the field. I think his drop off in play was huge this yr....If you sign one of those guys you have to cut Dawkins. Honestly right now I'd rather have Weddle or Landry. Oh and if Hill isn't cut im going to spaz!!

hahahaha jarvis moss has ruined it for everyone hahaha