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TXBRONC
02-18-2011, 10:22 AM
Broncos ditch 3-4 defensive front, return to 4-3
By Mike Klis
The Denver Post
Posted: 02/18/2011 01:00:00 AM MST


With or without Champ Bailey at left cornerback, the Broncos are switching to a 4-3 defensive front.

New coach John Fox confirmed the change during an interview with The Denver Post this week, saying: "We're going to be a multiple-front defense, but I think we'll make the commitment to the 4-3. The transition from the 3-4 to 4-3 is much easier than going from the 4-3 to 3-4, I will say that. So we feel pretty confident about that switch."

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_17418393

I know this no big surprise. I think this also bodes well for us drafting defensive line in this draft.

rcsodak
02-18-2011, 10:46 AM
Haynesworth for champ.











:couch:
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arapaho2
02-18-2011, 10:47 AM
welcome to the broncos Mr Bower

TXBRONC
02-18-2011, 10:55 AM
welcome to the broncos Mr Bower

That may very happen but it could also be Dareus.

arapaho2
02-18-2011, 11:38 AM
That may very happen but it could also be Dareus.

i would be happy with Dareus..huge run stuffer

but if it is a 43 we have guys like thomas, 316#...vickerson 321#, mcbean 297, bannon 310# that would be solid DTs...we would need a DE opposit of doom to pressure the qb

SOCALORADO.
02-18-2011, 11:46 AM
i would be happy with Dareus..huge run stuffer

but if it is a 43 we have guys like thomas, 316#...vickerson 321#, mcbean 297, bannon 310# that would be solid DTs...we would need a DE opposit of doom to pressure the qb

Only Thomas is a solid option at DT.
Cmon, dude quit fooling yourself.
Maybe Bannon as a rotational player.

PAINTERDAVE
02-18-2011, 11:50 AM
i would be happy with Dareus..huge run stuffer

but if it is a 43 we have guys like thomas, 316#...vickerson 321#, mcbean 297, bannon 310# that would be solid DTs...we would need a DE opposit of doom to pressure the qb

After taking a guy like Bowers,
we've got the 2nd pick in the second round...
there should be a guy available at that # 34 pick to help Doom.

rcsodak
02-18-2011, 11:51 AM
Only Thomas is a solid option at DT.
Cmon, dude quit fooling yourself.
Maybe Bannon as a rotational player.

Vickerson is the rock on the dline vs the run. Compare stats when he's there/not there.
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PAINTERDAVE
02-18-2011, 11:52 AM
Only Thomas is a solid option at DT.
Cmon, dude quit fooling yourself.
Maybe Bannon as a rotational player.

Bannon has some gas left in his tank...

thing is... with no free agency...
the team is gonna have to do what it can
with the picks we have and the players we have.

SOCALORADO.
02-18-2011, 11:59 AM
Vickerson is the rock on the dline vs the run. Compare stats when he's there/not there.
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Yeah your right. Vickerson is the dirtclod on a team that cant stop the run.
Vickerson is a part time solution to a massive problem.
Again, only Thomas is a true starting calibur, viable option for a team in complete rebuild. the rest are half ass rotational players. Sure they play tough here and there, but theres really very little consistency. Fine keep vickerson, but he aint the answer.
DEN cant stop anything. They need 2 more starting calibur DT's. Period.
Oh, and they need another DE and 2 LBs.

rcsodak
02-18-2011, 12:47 PM
Yeah your right. Vickerson is the dirtclod on a team that cant stop the run.
Vickerson is a part time solution to a massive problem.
Again, only Thomas is a true starting calibur, viable option for a team in complete rebuild. the rest are half ass rotational players. Sure they play tough here and there, but theres really very little consistency. Fine keep vickerson, but he aint the answer.
DEN cant stop anything. They need 2 more starting calibur DT's. Period.
Oh, and they need another DE and 2 LBs.
Ok, so you're saying it has NOTHING to do with scheme, gap responsibility.....just the player?
Then why would high draft picks, studs who Owned the line, fail at such alarming rates?
Couldn't it be trying a 43DT as a 34DE or NT? A 1gap player expected to play 2? Quick 1st step, but unsustainable speed/strength expected to pass rush?
In other words, playing to their strengths has a heck of a lot to do with a player's success or lack thereof. And now its up to Fox n Co to see if any of the current players haven't been properly utilized.
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arapaho2
02-18-2011, 01:06 PM
Yeah your right. Vickerson is the dirtclod on a team that cant stop the run.
Vickerson is a part time solution to a massive problem.
Again, only Thomas is a true starting calibur, viable option for a team in complete rebuild. the rest are half ass rotational players. Sure they play tough here and there, but theres really very little consistency. Fine keep vickerson, but he aint the answer.
DEN cant stop anything. They need 2 more starting calibur DT's. Period.
Oh, and they need another DE and 2 LBs.


your giving mcd and winks chosen scheme to much credit

SOCALORADO.
02-18-2011, 01:15 PM
your giving mcd and winks chosen scheme to much credit

DThomas came before any of them.

arapaho2
02-18-2011, 01:23 PM
DThomas came before any of them.


whats that got to do with anything? i know when he was drafted:rolleyes:..........what your saying is we couldnt stop the run or play the dline because they are all basicaly worthless...as in josh and wink had a great scheme, the players just sucked

im saying your giving joshes scheme to much credit .....how much of the troubles a capable player like bannon had is due to the scheme and not just ...he sucks

slim
02-18-2011, 01:32 PM
You guys crack me up. Worst D in the league, but we should keep the DL intact?

Brilliant.

If we go into the season with Doom, Thomas, Vick and Ayers as our starting DL, I going to go all claymore on your asses.

SOCALORADO.
02-18-2011, 01:33 PM
Ok, so you're saying it has NOTHING to do with scheme, gap responsibility.....just the player?
Then why would high draft picks, studs who Owned the line, fail at such alarming rates?
Couldn't it be trying a 43DT as a 34DE or NT? A 1gap player expected to play 2? Quick 1st step, but unsustainable speed/strength expected to pass rush?
In other words, playing to their strengths has a heck of a lot to do with a player's success or lack thereof. And now its up to Fox n Co to see if any of the current players haven't been properly utilized.
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So now its just a scheme issue.
It was all because of the scheme.
Everyone was out of position, and if they could just go to a 4-3 everything would be fixed and the career rotational back-ups would be impact players.
Re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
DEN needs 2 4-3 DTs and a 4-3 DE.

This always happens. Every year. After a dismal season of not being able to either rush the passer (to the extent that it actually has an impact on the team winning games) or not being able to stop the run ( except for the occasional game here and there, after all they are out there playing football), we hear the new litany of excuses and bizarro-world hypotheticals that players like Hamza Abdullah and Carl Paymah are really good, or Courtney Brown and John Engleberger are really awesome if they could just change "schemes", or move positions.
No. DEN sucks up front because the majority of the players up front suck. Plain and simple. Whatever the scheme, at this point it doesnt matter.
Theres been a player here and there, yeah, but this aspect of the team has been largely ignored.
DEN sucks, and it starts up front. Revamp, rebuild, remodel, re-whatever. But this team had better address the front 7 and fast, cause changing Vickerson's "scheme" aint gonna win this team anymore games.
Every year DEN fans have waaay tooo much time in the offseason to over-analyze and try to create this false perception that really if the coaches just put the square into the round hole, everything would fit and we would rock!

I swear this teams fans need DEN to get back to playoffs so damn bad.

arapaho2
02-18-2011, 01:40 PM
You guys crack me up. Worst D in the league, but we should keep the DL intact?

Brilliant.

If we go into the season with Doom, Thomas, Vick and Ayers as our starting DL, I going to go all claymore on your asses.


where you get that at?

what we're saying is it would be probably better to draft a pass rushing guy like bowers to complement doom....rather then a DT and leave doom as the only viable pass rush threat

bcbronc
02-18-2011, 02:04 PM
Let's break down the current DL options by role in a 40 front.

Run stuffing (1st down/shortr yardage):

(LE)Banaan-(DT)JWill-(DT)Vickerson-(RE)Ayers

Almost 700lbs of beef up the gut, 43 DT is easier than 34NT which prob helps JWill, Vickerson was one of our better DL last season (not saying much) and shouldn't have any troubles going from 34DE to 43DT, Ayers is our smallest guy at around 280lbs. Should be a solid run-stuffing DL, if healthy.

Balanced (pass or rush situations, 2nd and 7, 3rd and 4 etc).

(LE)Ayers-(DT)Vickerson-(DT)Thomas-(RE)Dumervil

Thomas can provide some penetration, Doom can come off the edge, hopefully Ayers can to while being strong enough to take on TEs doubling in run game.

Pass situations

(LE)Ayers-(DT)Banaan-(DT)Thomas-(RE)Dumervil

Of course that's only including guys already on the roster. We add 1 DE and 1 DT in our first 3 picks, and we're starting to get somewhere.

Add Bowers, and he can upgrade all three situations above. On passing downs, he or Ayers can replace Banaan inside (or even Doom can on 3rd and longs). Or leave Bowers and Ayers on the ends and stand Doom up and bring him off the edge.

Add Dareus, and he upgrades the interior of the line in balanced and passing situations.

Add another guy in the 2nd and we're going in the right direction.
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topscribe
02-18-2011, 02:39 PM
Haynesworth for champ.

:couch:
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:faint:

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dogfish
02-18-2011, 02:41 PM
Broncos ditch 3-4 defensive front, return to 4-3

idiots. . . :coffee:

topscribe
02-18-2011, 02:43 PM
Bannon has some gas left in his tank...

thing is... with no free agency...
the team is gonna have to do what it can
with the picks we have and the players we have.

The Ravens were very high on Bannan. I believe that, with good support beside
him, he could be quite good. For that reason, it is my (admittedly uneducated)
guess that the favorite could be Fairley or Dareus. Bowers is principally a DE,
and the Broncos seem stocked better there than at DT.

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Ravage!!!
02-18-2011, 02:51 PM
I'm glad we are moving forward with the 43. Easier to build and has just as much success as the 34. The 34 is not the end-all of defenses.

TXBRONC
02-18-2011, 03:17 PM
i would be happy with Dareus..huge run stuffer

but if it is a 43 we have guys like thomas, 316#...vickerson 321#, mcbean 297, bannon 310# that would be solid DTs...we would need a DE opposit of doom to pressure the qb

All of those guys are good second tier players but I would rather have better quality in the middle of the line.

topscribe
02-18-2011, 03:32 PM
I'm glad we are moving forward with the 43. Easier to build and has just as much success as the 34. The 34 is not the end-all of defenses.

Personally, I haven't been in favor of the 3-4 all along. Nonetheless, as Fox said,
the scheme is secondary in importance to personnel and effort . . .

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rcsodak
02-18-2011, 05:14 PM
:faint:

-----You're just mad I beat you to it.
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Day1BroncoFan
02-18-2011, 05:42 PM
If Haynesworthless comes to Denver I'll be a malcontent until he leaves and whoever came up with the idea to bring him here is gone too.

That being said, just win games whatever the defense is.

TXBRONC
02-18-2011, 05:46 PM
If Haynesworthless comes to Denver I'll be a malcontent until he leaves and whoever came up with the idea to bring him here is gone too.

That being said, just win games whatever the defense is.

He wont be coming to Denver.

Day1BroncoFan
02-18-2011, 05:48 PM
He wont be coming Denver.

I'm not expecting him here either.

bcbronc
02-18-2011, 07:06 PM
The Ravens were very high on Bannan. I believe that, with good support beside
him, he could be quite good. For that reason, it is my (admittedly uneducated)
guess that the favorite could be Fairley or Dareus. Bowers is principally a DE,
and the Broncos seem stocked better there than at DT.

-----

Top, where do you see this DE depth? I see Doom and Ayers (Doom isn't an every situation player though). Maybe Vokuin (sp?). That's it though, imo. I don't think Hunter can make the switch (maybe I guess) and I never want to see McBean in orange and blue again.

We need both DEs and DTs, but imo adding a guy like Bowers would make DE a strength for the next few years. I'm not saying DE instead of DT, we need top end talent at both, but imo our rotational depth at DT--especially of the run stuffing variety--is better.
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TXBRONC
02-19-2011, 09:55 AM
Top, where do you see this DE depth? I see Doom and Ayers (Doom isn't an every situation player though). Maybe Vokuin (sp?). That's it though, imo. I don't think Hunter can make the switch (maybe I guess) and I never want to see McBean in orange and blue again.

We need both DEs and DTs, but imo adding a guy like Bowers would make DE a strength for the next few years. I'm not saying DE instead of DT, we need top end talent at both, but imo our rotational depth at DT--especially of the run stuffing variety--is better.
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If we take Bowers I would be ok with that but I think we would be better served by taking Dareus or Fairley as our first option. From what I have gathered from the guys who like dig into draft prospects it sounds like we have good chance of picking up solid defensive end in the second round.

topscribe
02-19-2011, 10:34 AM
Top, where do you see this DE depth? I see Doom and Ayers (Doom isn't an every situation player though). Maybe Vokuin (sp?). That's it though, imo. I don't think Hunter can make the switch (maybe I guess) and I never want to see McBean in orange and blue again.

We need both DEs and DTs, but imo adding a guy like Bowers would make DE a strength for the next few years. I'm not saying DE instead of DT, we need top end talent at both, but imo our rotational depth at DT--especially of the run stuffing variety--is better.
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We might need some depth at DE, BC, but I believe the Broncos have their
starters in Ayers and Dumervil. I'm not too worried about Doom's defense against
the rush because he has improved. No, he will never be known as a "run-stuffer,"
but the likes of Freeney and Allen never have been, either.

For depth, Hunter played LDE for Detroit in 2009 and had five sacks. Of course,
the Broncos need more than those three -- and I don't see much in the others
on the roster -- but we're talking about depth there.

At DT, the Broncos need starters. I think Bannan can be quite good if he has
support beside him. Maybe Thomas can be that -- I don't know. But the
addition of a Fairley alone just might take the defense from last place to at
least average . . . but then, I think of the MLB spot, and whom do we have
there? I would love to see Mays develop, but we just haven't seen enough of
him. I would also see them pull Larsen out of the FB spot and put him back at
LB. He just might surprise.

But, regarding the draft, what I have seen of Bowers' highlights has me a bit
nervous. I was just not impressed at all.

Anyway, I don't claim to be any kind of expert. Just giving my impressions . . .

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Lonestar
02-19-2011, 10:39 AM
Great DT are hard to find, not many are found in in later rounds.

De are also hard to find but there are more of them coming out each year.
Plus if the DT are great everyone on the defense is better. Not so much with a great DE.

Doom was pretty damned good at getting to the QB in the 4-3 but the rest of our DL sucked for that matter D did also.

I can't remember the last great DT we have had and we have not spent a #1 on one ever.
Lately just hand me downs or over the hill has Beens.

Time to bite the bullet.
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HORSEPOWER 56
02-19-2011, 10:58 AM
Great DT are hard to find, not many are found in in later rounds.

De are also hard to find but there are more of them coming out each year.
Plus if the DT are great everyone on the defense is better. Not so much with a great DE.

Doom was pretty damned good at getting to the QB in the 4-3 but the rest of our DL sucked for that matter D did also.

I can't remember the last great DT we have had and we have not spent a #1 on one ever.
Lately just hand me downs or over the hill has Beens.

Time to bite the bullet.
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The last one we had was Trevor Pryce. He was originally a 3-technique UT and was a STUD there. Then Shanny and I think it was either Coyer or Rhodes got the bright idea to shift him to LDE (power end) and although he was still good, he didn't have the same success there. His first couple of seasons he was a beast at DT, though (career high 13 sacks in 1999 as a DT).

Ravage!!!
02-19-2011, 04:20 PM
The NFL is a QB and DE league. The one passing the ball and the one getting TO the passer.

TXBRONC
02-19-2011, 07:42 PM
The NFL is a QB and DE league. The one passing the ball and the one getting TO the passer.

It's a quarterback driven league but there is a very high premium on athletic big men because there just isn't that many of them.

rcsodak
02-19-2011, 10:33 PM
Well, I think pressure up the gut, in the qb's face is more important than from the edge. Get some stud 1gap DT's that stop the run on the way to the qb, DE's contain the edges with pressure, cb's become alot better.
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topscribe
02-19-2011, 11:31 PM
Well, I think pressure up the gut, in the qb's face is more important than from the edge. Get some stud 1gap DT's that stop the run on the way to the qb, DE's contain the edges with pressure, cb's become alot better.
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Nothing is more effective than collapsing the pocket. If a QB can step up into
the pocket, he can still set himself for a high velocity, accurate throw, and he
still has the whole field to work with.

If the Broncos can collapse the pocket and have a couple good DEs (which I
think they do), then the QB has to escape them. Even if he does, he usually
has to throw on the run, and he has only one half of the field to work with.
I'll take that any day, even with a scrambler . . .

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rcsodak
02-19-2011, 11:41 PM
Nothing is more effective than collapsing the pocket. If a QB can step up into
the pocket, he can still set himself for a high velocity, accurate throw, and he
still has the whole field to work with.

If the Broncos can collapse the pocket and have a couple good DEs (which I
think they do), then the QB has to escape them. Even if he does, he usually
has to throw on the run, and he has only one half of the field to work with.
I'll take that any day, even with a scrambler . . .

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Disagreeing alot lately, top. Armageddon? Lol
Isn't stepping up in the pocket the 1st path tried by most qb's?
Isn't having a big/ugly bearing down on them from their main area of vision more likely to push them into a DE or make them get rid of the ball sooner than they wanted?
You have a soft middle, even the best DE's aren't going to get to the qb.
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topscribe
02-19-2011, 11:48 PM
Disagreeing alot lately, top. Armageddon? Lol
Isn't stepping up in the pocket the 1st path tried by most qb's?
Isn't having a big/ugly bearing down on them from their main area of vision more likely to push them into a DE or make them get rid of the ball sooner than they wanted?
You have a soft middle, even the best DE's aren't going to get to the qb.
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That's exactly what I was saying, RC . . . I thought . . . :)

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rcsodak
02-21-2011, 09:13 AM
That's exactly what I was saying, RC . . . I thought . . . :)

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You did. My bad. Rough weekend.
Armageddon has been postponed.
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