Bailey: "I'm putting my littleton, co house up for sale

[cardoso]

WOW looks like things aren't going good for us with Champ Bailey

Posted on twitter by Josina Anderson

[DallasChief]

Interesting. Did he say how many square feet?

[cardoso]

interesting. Did he say how many square feet?

1,000,000

[Traveler]

Free agent Champ Bailey has put his Colorado home up for sale, just after it was reported Bailey had renewed contract talks with the Broncos.

So much for that. "I am putting my Littleton, (CO) house up for sale," Bailey confirmed to Inside the NFL's Josina Anderson. It's an indication that Bailey doesn't plan to play for the Broncos in 2011. The team is not believed to be considering using the franchise tag on the 32-year-old shutdown corner.

http://www.rotoworld.com/headlines/nfl/200354/champ-bailey-puts-colorado-home-up-for-sale

[cardoso]

Thanks for the link buddy!

Farewell Bailey! Thank you for everything you did here! YOu were the only shinning star in our defense. I wish you the best of luck and hope you win a superbowl before the end of your career! :salute:

[dogfish]

Interesting. Did he say how many square feet?


1,000,000


http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/82/drevilz.jpg (http://img257.imageshack.us/i/drevilz.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[cardoso]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


lmao!!!!!!

[rcsodak]

Maybe he wants to just get some new digs with the retarded home prices such as they are.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[Dirk]

Maybe he wants to just get some new digs with the retarded home prices such as they are.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Or his new contract has him shopping for a bigger and better house. :pray:

[rcsodak]

Or his new contract has him shopping for a bigger and better house. :pray:there ya go!
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[Juriga72]

Wow.... "he put his house on the market".. man you can get killed for doing that here.............

[underrated29]

LMAO--

Not sure where dogfishs thread about funny comments is but this:


not exact quote but close...In regards to contract talks breaking off on champ because he wants more security...

"Champ isnt looking for maximum security, like his buddy perrish cox is, just a nice comfort level."

[dogfish]

Wow.... "he put his house on the market".. man you can get killed for doing that here.............

at least he didn't give blood. . .

[BigSarge87]

Maybe that's his way of letting the FO know he means business.

[honz]

Josina Anderson blocked me for legitimately calling her out. Fu-get her!

[SR]

Josina Anderson is a tard. I wouldn't read too much in to him putting his house up for sale.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Fox 31 - who Anderson works for, is also carrying it now on their site:

from the article:



“The Broncos' negotiating posture has not changed in any respect from the offer that was made back in October which provided only limited guarantees,” a source told Anderson.

full article - http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-champ-baileys-littleton-home-for-sale-broncos-future-uncertain-20110216,0,5281377.story

[BigSarge87]

Shouldn't Twitter get a commission or something for the role it plays in contract negotiations?

Maybe that's part of the new CBA.

[rcsodak]

Fox 31 - who Anderson works for, is also carrying it now on their site:

from the article:



full article - http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-champ-baileys-littleton-home-for-sale-broncos-future-uncertain-20110216,0,5281377.story
What's funny, is weren't we led to believe champ was ok with and ready to accept that deal? Is this "news" coming from champ.... his agent....or an unnamed source?
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[claymore]

Resigning Champ is like throwing money down a well. Our defense is not a champ bailey away from anything. I know some of you guys like him. So I understand being upset, but by the time we could actually use a HOF DB he will be retiring.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

What's funny, is weren't we led to believe champ was ok with and ready to accept that deal? Is this "news" coming from champ.... his agent....or an unnamed source?
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Champ was ok with it then, before the Broncos pulled it off the table:


"I am disappointed, because I want to be here," Bailey said. "We know that, they know that. What's the issue here, really?"

In the final season of a seven-year contract, Bailey, 32, can become an unrestricted free agent at the end of the season.

The Broncos and Bailey's agent, Jack Reale, were close to hashing out a four-year contract extension that would have kept the nine-time Pro Bowler with the team through 2014.

Bailey said he wasn't crazy about the deal, but he was willing to take it because he wants to stay in Denver.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16279530

However, now he may have a change of heart. The Broncos should have got it done last year:tsk:

[dogfish]

Resigning Champ is like throwing money down a well. Our defense is not a champ bailey away from anything. I know some of you guys like him. So I understand being upset, but by the time we could actually use a HOF DB he will be retiring.

aren't you the guy that liked chris simms so much?

[BroncoNut]

Resigning Champ is like throwing money down a well. Our defense is not a champ bailey away from anything. I know some of you guys like him. So I understand being upset, but by the time we could actually use a HOF DB he will be retiring.

we're just going to be more glaringly worse and inexperienced on D. that's all really

[KCL]

aren't you the guy that liked chris simms so much?

Is that who it was..I thought it was McD..I was told since he was let go clay won't post much anymore :whoknows:

:D

[Ravage!!!]

I agree that we aren't a Champ Bailey away from anything, but him leaving just creates yet another HUGE hole to fill with players we just don't have. Lets stop letting the best talent we have on teh field walk out the door.

I'm surprised that the offer we made is nothing more than a one year deal. Last year Champ was willing to come down off his asking price to sign a deal, but we pulled it. Now we just offer whats basically a one year deal, that is most probably less than the franchise tag.

Right now....I bet the Steelers are licking their chops.

[Edmonton Bronco Fan]

Hopefully they can get something hammered out, although at this point, it's looking pretty unlikely.


The exodus continues.

[cuzz4169]

Here's the question...Why is champ selfish? The dude has made all types of money stop being a douche and sign a home discount deal. If he's looking to be paid like the top 5 CB that's wrong of him at age 33 Broncos fans are the only people who believe he's a top 5 talent. During tough negotiations like this is you truly find out the persons character. Can anyone say EGO!!

[rcsodak]

Champ was ok with it then, before the Broncos pulled it off the table:



http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16279530

However, now he may have a change of heart. The Broncos should have got it done last year:tsk:
Good find, carol. Knew I didn't dream it up.
And like I said....its gonna end up being whether or not champ wants to be a Bronco. Frankly, after wink was let go, whom he personally went to bat for, we could prolly color him gone.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[KCL]

Here's the question...Why is champ selfish? The dude has made all types of money stop being a douche and sign a home discount deal. If he's looking to be paid like the top 5 CB that's wrong of him at age 33 Broncos fans are the only people who believe he's a top 5 talent. During tough negotiations like this is you truly find out the persons character. Can anyone say EGO!!

Maybe it's not the money..maybe it's the principal of the matter with the way things unfolded when they were looking into a new contract with him and then the FO backed out.I don't know...JMO.

[rcsodak]

Some people were dreaming of Nnamdi/Champ in the blue/orange. It might happen still.....but in the black/silver.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[claymore]

aren't you the guy that liked chris simms so much?That was before I knew McD only lets one QB practice!


we're just going to be more glaringly worse and inexperienced on D. that's all really

We will have less talent for sure... But I dont think we will be worse. We could have deion sanders and champ bailey and still suck because we cant stop the run or pressure the QB.

[cuzz4169]

Maybe it's not the money..maybe it's the principal of the matter with the way things unfolded when they were looking into a new contract with him and then the FO backed out.I don't know...JMO.

I understand that...but I don't think its the same people doing the negotiations.

[KCL]

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/24410/champ-bailey-planning-to-sale-house
Sorry if this was posted already.
ESPN is reporting the sale


Earlier Wednesday, there appeared to be hope for the Denver Broncos that they could retain star cornerback Champ Bailey. The Denver Post reported that the team had resumed contract talks with Bailey.

However, later Wednesday, there was a less-encouraging development: Bailey said he would put his Denver-area home up for sale.

That is usually not a move made by someone who is expecting to stay where he is. In reality, the fact that Bailey is putting up his house for sale doesn’t mean much. He can easily take it off the market if the Broncos come through with a new deal.

But this is an indication that the Broncos aren’t near where Bailey wants to be in the deal. There is a long time to go, and the fact that the two sides are talking again has to be looked at as progress. Yet, it is clear that Bailey can envision himself playing elsewhere in 2011.

[cuzz4169]

That was before I knew McD only lets one QB practice!



We will have less talent for sure... But I dont think we will be worse. We could have deion sanders and champ bailey and still suck because we cant stop the run or pressure the QB.

I agree Denver won back to back super bowls with avg. CB play...how about its called team defense. New England has been doing it forever. I would take avg defensive players at every position than 2 studs and then 6 below avg. or rotational players and then 3 avg guys.

[cuzz4169]

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/24410/champ-bailey-planning-to-sale-house

ESPN is reporting the sale


Earlier Wednesday, there appeared to be hope for the Denver Broncos that they could retain star cornerback Champ Bailey. The Denver Post reported that the team had resumed contract talks with Bailey.

However, later Wednesday, there was a less-encouraging development: Bailey said he would put his Denver-area home up for sale.

That is usually not a move made by someone who is expecting to stay where he is. In reality, the fact that Bailey is putting up his house for sale doesn’t mean much. He can easily take it off the market if the Broncos come through with a new deal.

But this is an indication that the Broncos aren’t near where Bailey wants to be in the deal. There is a long time to go, and the fact that the two sides are talking again has to be looked at as progress. Yet, it is clear that Bailey can envision himself playing elsewhere in 2011.

If Bailey is trying to get Denver to break the bank to keep him, I will lose all respect for him. 10 mill a season Is most I would pay for a 33yr old CB.

[claymore]

I agree Denver won back to back super bowls with avg. CB play...how about its called team defense. New England has been doing it forever. I would take avg defensive players at every position than 2 studs and then 6 below avg. or rotational players and then 3 avg guys.

I agree 100%.

[Medford Bronco]

I agree Denver won back to back super bowls with avg. CB play...how about its called team defense. New England has been doing it forever. I would take avg defensive players at every position than 2 studs and then 6 below avg. or rotational players and then 3 avg guys.

It was called a Great offense and an opportunistic D.

Darrien Gordon was an okay corner with a lot of support up front. They caused turnovers when they were killing teams

Champ would be great on a team almost there, like a Ravens team.

Denver needs an overhaul on D. I Love Champ but dont overpay for him at 33

[rcsodak]

If Bailey is trying to get Denver to break the bank to keep him, I will lose all respect for him. 10 mill a season Is most I would pay for a 33yr old CB.

Sounds more like he's wanting more in guaranteed $$. But I have a feeling the truth to all the negotiating is somewhere in the middle, and not privy to us mere mortals.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[BroncoStud]

Why don't we just franchise tag him again?? How does it hurt us exactly?

[claymore]

Why don't we just franchise tag him again?? How does it hurt us exactly?

That would tie up more than 10% of the salary cap on one player that cant make a difference.

JMO on how it would hurt us. :D

[BroncoStud]

That would tie up more than 10% of the salary cap on one player that cant make a difference.

JMO on how it would hurt us. :D

You don't think Bailey would make a difference?

[cuzz4169]

Why don't we just franchise tag him again?? How does it hurt us exactly?

15mil is a lot of money!!

[claymore]

You don't think Bailey would make a difference?

Not 15 million dollars worth. I didnt want to pay him the 13 million we owed him last year because i thought it was a waste.

We suck. We do not NEED one overpaid player in the twilight of his career.

I realize people love him no offense intended.

[BigSarge87]

Unless they have plans to get some pretty damn good FA's in here (don't know how that's possible) then I don't see how we can afford to lose him and still get better this year.

Who can they replace him with?

[claymore]

15mil is a lot of money!!

I predict we win more games this year without bailey than we did last year with bailey.

[cuzz4169]

You don't think Bailey would make a difference?

he's a good player...if our defense was solid up front and at other positions I would say he would make a huge difference...but with a leaky defense you can't see the difference he does make. Plus he's 33...if he went to a Ravens or Steelers yea he would make a huge difference for them. But at 33 to pay him 15mil is risky...

[BroncoStud]

Not 15 million dollars worth. I didnt want to pay him the 13 million we owed him last year because i thought it was a waste.

We suck. We do not NEED one overpaid player in the twilight of his career.

I realize people love him no offense intended.

He's still top 3 at his position and should be for another few season and then has FS ability on top of that... I don't think Denver should break the bank either, but they're going to have to find an adequate replacement because the roster is THIN without him at CB. Scary thin.

[BroncoStud]

he's a good player...if our defense was solid up front and at other positions I would say he would make a huge difference...but with a leaky defense you can't see the difference he does make. Plus he's 33...if he went to a Ravens or Steelers yea he would make a huge difference for them. But at 33 to pay him 15mil is risky...

I almost think Denver should draft Peterson at Safety and keep Bailey at CB, then getting Doom back and Ayers getting another year under his belt, along with Fox improving the schemes and bringing in some free agent stopgaps, the defense could be vastly improved.

Oh, and not having Orton's offense punting on nearly every possession won't hurt them either.

[claymore]

I almost think Denver should draft Peterson at Safety and keep Bailey at CB, then getting Doom back and Ayers getting another year under his belt, along with Fox improving the schemes and bringing in some free agent stopgaps, the defense could be vastly improved.

Oh, and not having Orton's offense punting on nearly every possession won't hurt them either.

Converting 3rd downs is the fastest way to make our defense better.

Between our OL, and DL, we can find a way to spend 15 million dollars.

[cuzz4169]

Unless they have plans to get some pretty damn good FA's in here (don't know how that's possible) then I don't see how we can afford to lose him and still get better this year.

Who can they replace him with?

No doubt they would have to sign someone there are a few good players and then a few starters. I would take any of these guys. Brent Grimes, Johnathan Joseph, Richard Marshall, Carlos Rogers, Fabian Washington, Josh Wilson, Chris Houston, Jason Allen, Brandon Carr, & Kelly Jennings.

we might be able to get 2 of these guys with the champ $.
The premier guys are in bold...would love to have them.

[rcsodak]

Another reason why you don't make these crazy-assed contracts that aren't meant to go full term. They shoulda extended/reworked his in '09. If nothing else, his 120% raise wouldn't be so frickn outlandish.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[BroncoStud]

Another reason why you don't make these crazy-assed contracts that aren't meant to go full term. They shoulda extended/reworked his in '09. If nothing else, his 120% raise wouldn't be so frickn outlandish.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Do we know for certain what his asking price is? Remember, Aso from the Raiders will also be hitting the market, and he should have more value being younger.

[cuzz4169]

He's still top 3 at his position

I'm not so sure about that.

[vandammage13]

I almost think Denver should draft Peterson at Safety and keep Bailey at CB, then getting Doom back and Ayers getting another year under his belt, along with Fox improving the schemes and bringing in some free agent stopgaps, the defense could be vastly improved.

Oh, and not having Orton's offense punting on nearly every possession won't hurt them either.

The defense will definitely be improved....They really can't do anything except go up at this point. The question is how much better. I think that if they can manage to be in the high teens in terms of Points Allowed and YPG that our offense can score enough points to give us a respectable record in 2011.

With Doom coming back and if we can get a couple of guys in the draft that can make an immediate impact, along with a solid FA or 2, I really think this thing can get turned around very quickly. Now, I'm not saying competing for championships, but I really think it is not out of the relm of possibility to make a wild card run if we make the right moves this offseason.

There are definitely some recent cases out there of teams being at the bottom and then immediately making the playoffs or at least having a good record the very next year. (Reference 2007-2008 Dolphins, 2009-2010 Bucs, and 2009-2010 Chiefs). Again, this is tough to do, but recent history shows that it can be done if the cards fall right.

[cuzz4169]

The defense will definitely be improved....They really can't do anything except go up at this point. The question is how much better. I think that if they can manage to be in the high teens in terms of Points Allowed and YPG that our offense can score enough points to give us a respectable record in 2011.

With Doom coming back and if we can get a couple of guys in the draft that can make an immediate impact, along with a solid FA or 2, I really think this thing can get turned around very quickly. Now, I'm not saying competing for championships, but I really think it is not out of the relm of possibility to make a wild card run if we make the right moves this offseason.

There are definitely some recent cases out there of teams being at the bottom and then immediately making the playoffs or at least having a good record the very next year. (Reference 2007-2008 Dolphins, 2009-2010 Bucs, and 2009-2010 Chiefs). Again, this is tough to do, but recent history shows that it can be done if the cards fall right.

Easy for use to type it on here...

[Denver Native (Carol)]

It is a unique real estate listing to be sure. Yes, the well-appointed Littleton home is the only one in Denver Metropolitan area that has been occupied by a 10-time Pro Bowl selection.

But as of Wednesday, Champ Bailey's house is officially on the market.

Bailey's agent, Jack Reale, confirmed Bailey has listed the home, which real estate records show Bailey purchased for $1.6 million in June of 2007.

Bailey, who has been with the Broncos since the blockbuster trade in 2004 that sent Clinton Portis to the Redskins and brought Bailey to Denver, will be an unrestricted free agent when either the new league begins or after an expected lockout by franchise owners is resolved with a new collective bargaining agreement between the NFL and the NFL Players Association.

Broncos head coach John Fox told The Denver Post on Tuesday that some talks with Bailey's representatives on a contract extension had taken place, saying: "We've had some dialogue there. There have been discussions. He's a guy we definitely want to bring back."

Reale said he did not want to comment on the state of negotiations or what Bailey's decision to put his house on the market the day after those talks became public would mean. Bailey, who could not be reached Wednesday, has said while he wants to stay in Denver, his first priority will be to go to a team that's "in position to win and committed to win. I can't wait forever."


full article - http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_17404476

[rcsodak]

I can see the threads next year, everytime a cb gets burnt: "THAT WOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED WITH CHAMP BACK THERE! "And "CHEAP-ASSED TEAM!"

Can hardly wait. :coffee:
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[BroncoStud]

I can see the threads next year, everytime a cb gets burnt: "THAT WOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED WITH CHAMP BACK THERE! "And "CHEAP-ASSED TEAM!"

Can hardly wait. :coffee:
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

At the same time, his house was $1.6 million, in the case he doesn't sign with Denver he probably should have already had it on the market to even think about getting it sold in the next 6 months. Homes of that price don't sell in a matter of days - usually.

[vandammage13]

Easy for use to type it on here...

I guess I might be a bit optimistic on this, but I don't really see any reason why it can't happen when it has been shown on several occasions recently that it can be done.

I really have moderately high hopes for next year. Our record was really bad last year, but I'm banking on us being a lot more healthy in 2011 (we really got hit bad in 2010 and that contributed to the bad record) and not having Orton. Things are looking very orange to me right now through my glasses and I'm liking it.

[cuzz4169]

I guess I might be a bit optimistic on this, but I don't really see any reason why it can't happen when it has been shown on several occasions recently that it can be done.

I really have moderately high hopes for next year. Our record was really bad last year, but I'm banking on us being a lot more healthy in 2011 (we really got hit bad in 2010 and that contributed to the bad record) and not having Orton. Things are looking very orange to me right now through my glasses and I'm liking it.

no doubt we will be better than 4-12.

[BigSarge87]

No doubt they would have to sign someone there are a few good players and then a few starters. I would take any of these guys. Brent Grimes, Johnathan Joseph, Richard Marshall, Carlos Rogers, Fabian Washington, Josh Wilson, Chris Houston, Jason Allen, Brandon Carr, & Kelly Jennings.

we might be able to get 2 of these guys with the champ $.
The premier guys are in bold...would love to have them.

I'm a little gun shy around free agents like this. It would make me sick to let Champ go to a team where he's a probowler again so we could bring in a couple free agents that don't pan out and sit around soaking up money and end up getting benched for special teamers.

Free agents seem to pan out less often than draft picks.

Champ is proven. He's expensive, but he's not a question mark. He could still contribute for many years. Use this opportunity to show the young players in the league that if they keep kicking ass, they'll get taken care of if they come to Denver.

It's a lot of money, but who deserves it more than Champ?

Maybe I'm too loyal to the guy.

[BORDERLINE]

PAY THE MAN,

Champ has been a class act in Denver.

If the FO is stupid enough to pay 3 coaches at the same time then I would not be as upset as Champ getting a little more cash in his wallet. He is still a shut down corner we are gettin Elvis back and the second pick goes into a DT I say that's a good start to building something here

[claymore]

I bet Bailey, Dumerville, and Ortons contracts eat up 30% of the "salary cap". None of those guys are what we need.

Dumerville being the most valuable to the team.

[roomemp]

The best teams in the league (New England, Steelers, Eagles) know when the investmate in a player is not in the best interest of the club.... I know Champ is a little different because he is an all pro Cb and will eventually switch to safty and probably be an all pro safty but still....Champ had an injury riddle 09...or was it 08?

I would be okay if the FO felt they could spend their money more wisely.....If they step away from Champ, I am assuming (praying) they have a solid plan.

[BroncoStud]

The best teams in the league (New England, Steelers, Eagles) know when the investmate in a player is not in the best interest of the club.... I know Champ is a little different because he is an all pro Cb and will eventually switch to safty and probably be an all pro safty but still....Champ had an injury riddle 09...or was it 08?

I would be okay if the FO felt they could spend their money more wisely.....If they step away from Champ, I am assuming (praying) they have a solid plan.

Our front office consist of a rookie President (John Elway), Brian Xanders (who took part in the worst 2 seasons of roster moves in Denver history), and John Fox (who just led his team to 2-14)...

Why would you assume they have a good plan in place? If they let Champ walk it's a mistake because he might be the best player on this team and should have 5 years left to play for this defense.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Latest twitter from Josina - I am assuming this relates to Champ:


@juswhytee However, clearly if the #Broncos do better than what basically amounts to several one year options than there's a glimmer of hope

http://twitter.com/JosinaAnderson

If this does relate to Champ, and they are proposing one year options, WHY would Champ want to go from year to year, NOT KNOWING if he will be with the Broncos or not from year to year??????

[claymore]

If Champ doesnt like our offer than eff him.

[Poet]

I'm not sure why people assume he's just going to become a great or even good safety. I also don't know why people think that he's still an elite top five corner, he's not.

It's a mistake to resign him for any large amount of money. He's a good corner, not a great one. When the end of a career comes, it comes fast. It's not inconceivable that he has another strong year and then next year blows.

If you are basically blowing up everything and starting new, why would you even want him?

If keeping Champ is the difference between winning two or three games, that's a good thing. But if you're going to be 6-10 with him, why is it worth it?

Assuming that there is a season next year, I would want to sign Champ and then trade him.

[rcsodak]

Latest twitter from Josina - I am assuming this relates to Champ:



http://twitter.com/JosinaAnderson

If this does relate to Champ, and they are proposing one year options, WHY would Champ want to go from year to year, NOT KNOWING if he will be with the Broncos or not from year to year??????
Prolly avg annual salarys, not guaranteed, with either roster bonuses every march or jammed with incentives that, if met, guarantees the next year. Frankly, not dumb options considering his age, the $ involved, etc.
Question is, will another team guarantee him for 4yrs? Or just throw a huge signing bonus at him. And is denver offering ANY kind of upfront money to make his subsequent yrs more palatable? Inquiring minds....
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[claymore]

I'm not sure why people assume he's just going to become a great or even good safety. I also don't know why people think that he's still an elite top five corner, he's not.

It's a mistake to resign him for any large amount of money. He's a good corner, not a great one. When the end of a career comes, it comes fast. It's not inconceivable that he has another strong year and then next year blows.

If you are basically blowing up everything and starting new, why would you even want him?

If keeping Champ is the difference between winning two or three games, that's a good thing. But if you're going to be 6-10 with him, why is it worth it?

Assuming that there is a season next year, I would want to sign Champ and then trade him.

This is your best post of all time.

[rcsodak]

I'm not sure why people assume he's just going to become a great or even good safety. I also don't know why people think that he's still an elite top five corner, he's not.

It's a mistake to resign him for any large amount of money. He's a good corner, not a great one. When the end of a career comes, it comes fast. It's not inconceivable that he has another strong year and then next year blows.

If you are basically blowing up everything and starting new, why would you even want him?

If keeping Champ is the difference between winning two or three games, that's a good thing. But if you're going to be 6-10 with him, why is it worth it?

Assuming that there is a season next year, I would want to sign Champ and then trade him.

Disagree but I'll bite. Who is better? And careful, cuz stats can be deceiving....and schemes/surrouding talent DO matter.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[underrated29]

He is still top 5 king.

He has had 1 or 2 tds scored on him the last 2 years!!!




Who would you rate higher than champ?


revis
nnamdi
which other 3?

[topscribe]

He is still top 5 king.

He has had 1 or 2 tds scored on him the last 2 years!!!




Who would you rate higher than champ?


revis
nnamdi
which other 3?

And even rating them two above Champ is subjective. As you implied, Champ
literally shut down top receivers in the league. How much better can a corner
get than that?

-----

[Poet]

Disagree but I'll bite. Who is better? And careful, cuz stats can be deceiving....and schemes/surrouding talent DO matter.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Revis and Nnmadi are two guys who are obvious. Flowers, Jonathan Josph are also better. One could argue Woodson, but I don't like the fact that he rarely lines up against a number one WR with great speed.

[BigSarge87]

If he loses 20% a year, in two years he'll still be better than half the CB's in the league. With the exception of the one game against Dwayne Bowe, he pretty much shut down everyone he played against. People that say he's not that good anymore are taking him for granted. I don't know how many wins he's good for, but I do know he's good to stop 4 or 5 shots down the field every game and I know he rarely misses an open field tackle even at the ancient age of 32.

Obviously, if we get better against the run (crossing fingers) he'll be challenged more often and we'll get a better idea of where he's at.

But, when he does lose the ability to keep up with #1 WR's, if he does indeed make the move to safety, it's a position that doesn't require him to be so fast. He can rely more on his experience and instincts to make plays. He's still an amazing tackler and as a FS (or even a SS IMO) he could take any TE/RB/3WR out of the passing game completely.

If they use him right, he's still got a lot of miles left on his tires. I don't see why this is such a debate.

[cuzz4169]

Disagree but I'll bite. Who is better? And careful, cuz stats can be deceiving....and schemes/surrouding talent DO matter.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Hard to name your top 5 on here bc everyone loves champ...and is a homer...but ill give ya a list in my opinion.

Darrelle Revis
Nnamdi Asomugha
Charles Woodson
Cortland Finnegan
Asante Samuel

These are 5 i think are better...now you can argue about 10 more.

[Ravage!!!]

Revis and Nnmadi are two guys who are obvious. Flowers, Jonathan Josph are also better. One could argue Woodson, but I don't like the fact that he rarely lines up against a number one WR with great speed.

Dude.. FLowers is not better than Champ, and you just took away one of your options in Woodson. So even if you a rright (and they are COMPLETELY subjective).. then that still puts Champ in the top 5.

But Flowers is NOT better than Champ, and Revis doesn't come close to being the tackler that Champ is.

[Poet]

But, when he does lose the ability to keep up with #1 WR's, if he does indeed make the move to safety, it's a position that doesn't require him to be so fast. He can rely more on his experience and instincts to make plays. He's still an amazing tackler and as a FS (or even a SS IMO) he could take any TE/RB/3WR out of the passing game completely.

If they use him right, he's still got a lot of miles left on his tires. I don't see why this is such a debate.

Free Safety in the NFL is now more about speed than ever before. Do I expect him to suddenly become a slow old man? No, assuming that he's going to even be a good safety is silly.

I don't know why everyone just looks at the number one WR's numbers and goes 'he got shut down'. Champ isn't always lined up against the number one WR. I remember several games between our two teams where Champ was lined up against Housh or Chris Henry for some plays.

[Ravage!!!]

Free Safety in the NFL is now more about speed than ever before. Do I expect him to suddenly become a slow old man? No, assuming that he's going to even be a good safety is silly.

I don't know why everyone just looks at the number one WR's numbers and goes 'he got shut down'. Champ isn't always lined up against the number one WR. I remember several games between our two teams where Champ was lined up against Housh or Chris Henry for some plays.

well yea... thats because we didn't need our #1 guy to shut down Ocho :D

[Poet]

Dude.. FLowers is not better than Champ, and you just took away one of your options in Woodson. So even if you a rright (and they are COMPLETELY subjective).. then that still puts Champ in the top 5.

But Flowers is NOT better than Champ, and Revis doesn't come close to being the tackler that Champ is.

Flowers is every bit as good as champ in coverage now and Revis is the one guy next to Nnamdi who usually does remove his guy from the game. I don't care about a corner being able to tackle, but Revis is actually a very good tackler.

Guys, I really hate to say this, and I don't want you guys to take it the wrong way, but I watch your team as my second team. He's not an elite cornerback.

He's not out there 'on an island' as much or like he used to be.

Age happens. He's going to the Hall, but he's not the beast that you guys WANT him to be at this point.

[Poet]

well yea... thats because we didn't need our #1 guy to shut down Ocho :D

Actually, it was more like Bailey was failing to do so so you had to try something else. :D

[BigSarge87]

Oh please, I'll give you Revis and Nnamdi, but you've got to be 2-hand fisting me that you actually think Jonathan Joseph is better than Champ. He had one good year.

[Poet]

This is your best post of all time.

After reading that Claymore, agrees with me, I retract my all my posts. Champ should get a ten year deal.

[Poet]

Oh please, I'll give you Revis and Nnamdi, but you've got to be 2-hand fisting me that you actually think Jonathan Joseph is better than Champ. He had one good year.

Actually he's had three and has been better than Champ for the past two years. IDK, getting no safety help on a team with no pass rush and truly removing guys from the game is really crappy.

[Ravage!!!]

Flowers is every bit as good as champ in coverage now and Revis is the one guy next to Nnamdi who usually does remove his guy from the game. I don't care about a corner being able to tackle, but Revis is actually a very good tackler.

Guys, I really hate to say this, and I don't want you guys to take it the wrong way, but I watch your team as my second team. He's not an elite cornerback.

He's not out there 'on an island' as much or like he used to be.

Age happens. He's going to the Hall, but he's not the beast that you guys WANT him to be at this point.

King.. I don't want you to take this the wrong way.. but although you've watched our team a lot, doesn't mean your opinion is right.

Champ is still one of the best corners in the NFL. Now whether or not that means we spend the money on him... I've been saying for 2+ years that I bet we don't extend Champ. So I'm not tied to that line of thinking. Our team sucks.

But honestly, you don't always have the greatest judgment of talent, and I mean that with pure respect. We disagree on TONS of players, and you always come back to the same thing "He's not the best you think he is".. and I could come back with the "he's much better then you give him credit for being."

Oh.. and I promise you I watch MUCH more Chief football than you do. Flowers is good and growing, but he is NOT nearly as good as you are trying to make him out to be.

[cuzz4169]

Thats why I said you can't make a list, everyone here is a champ fan....If you ask on other teams forums its different. Champ is not head and shoulders above the rest of the Cb's in the NFL anymore he's not top 5...but he's in a list of top 10...

These guys I think are just as good as champ at this point of his career.

Brandon Flowers
Leon Hall
Tramon Williams
Rasean Mathis
Jabari Greer
Johnathan Joseph
Corey Webster
Chris Gamble
Quentin Jammer
Dominique Rogers-Cromartie
Vontae Davis
Deangalo Hall
Aliq Talib

Actually I would pay any of these guys 10mil before I give champ 10 mil at 33yrs old.

[BroncoStud]

I'm not sure why people assume he's just going to become a great or even good safety. I also don't know why people think that he's still an elite top five corner, he's not.

It's a mistake to resign him for any large amount of money. He's a good corner, not a great one. When the end of a career comes, it comes fast. It's not inconceivable that he has another strong year and then next year blows.

If you are basically blowing up everything and starting new, why would you even want him?

If keeping Champ is the difference between winning two or three games, that's a good thing. But if you're going to be 6-10 with him, why is it worth it?

Assuming that there is a season next year, I would want to sign Champ and then trade him.

Name me 5 better CBs in the NFL, I bet even if you can name 2 they have vastly better pass rushes than Champ. Champ's elite, top 3 in the NFL.

[cuzz4169]

Name me 5 better CBs in the NFL, I bet even if you can name 2 they have vastly better pass rushes than Champ. Champ's elite, top 3 in the NFL.

champ had the leading sack guy in the NFL last year. Champ is not top 3 anymore...and even if he's top 5...how long does that last? if he gets a 4 yr deal at 10 mil a yr is one yr worth it?

[BroncoStud]

champ had the leading sack guy in the NFL last year. Champ is not top 3 anymore...and even if he's top 5...how long does that last? if he gets a 4 yr deal at 10 mil a yr is one yr worth it?

Who? We had NO pass rush last year... That's just absurd.

[cuzz4169]

Who? We had NO pass rush last year... That's just absurd.

I said last year

[Poet]

King.. I don't want you to take this the wrong way.. but although you've watched our team a lot, doesn't mean your opinion is right.

I am always right. All you gotta do is ask me, Ravage. ;)


Champ is still one of the best corners in the NFL. Now whether or not that means we spend the money on him... I've been saying for 2+ years that I bet we don't extend Champ. So I'm not tied to that line of thinking. Our team sucks.

I think he is still one of the best. He's a top ten cornerback, but I don't think he's elite, and to me, top five is elite.


But honestly, you don't always have the greatest judgment of talent, and I mean that with pure respect. We disagree on TONS of players, and you always come back to the same thing "He's not the best you think he is".. and I could come back with the "he's much better then you give him credit for being."

Honestly, I would say that you are a worse judge of talent than I am, and I mean that with respect. I think we view the game differently and value different things in players. Between you and I, the best example is BM. I want a WR that gets more yards and TD's. That's what I value. You value the catches because if he's catching the ball a lot he's beating his corner and is doing something right.

Obviously it's an opinion and can't be right or wrong unless the opinion is something stupid like "I think Chris Johnson is the best power back in the NFL," or "Dan Marino wasn't that good as a pure passer,"





Oh.. and I promise you I watch MUCH more Chief football than you do. Flowers is good and growing, but he is NOT nearly as good as you are trying to make him out to be.
And you may watch more Chief football than me, but from everything that I have seen, the guy is a top five corner.

I'm seeing less and less of Champ being out there on an island against his guy. I'm seeing him get beaten more and more. I'm taking into account that the defense around him is laughable and that his pass rush is as effective the cake and ice cream diet.

[Ravage!!!]

champ had the leading sack guy in the NFL last year. Champ is not top 3 anymore...and even if he's top 5...how long does that last? if he gets a 4 yr deal at 10 mil a yr is one yr worth it?

You mean in 2009, and during that season (even though we had one of the worst defenses in the NFL), how many TD passes were thrown against Champ? How many were thrown against Champ in 2008 when we, again, had one of the worst defenses in the NFL?

Also.. if its a 4 year deal, why are you asking if one year is worth it? :confused:

[cuzz4169]

I'm telling you right NOW...If they did a poll in the NFL who's top 5 cornerbacks Champ doesn't make list. you guys just don't see it Champ was not on any all-pro team & was an injury replacement for pro bowl....again champ is a top 10 cornerback back right now. But there are a lot of guys just as good. How much longer does the top 10 last?

[Ravage!!!]

Honestly, I would say that you are a worse judge of talent than I am, and I mean that with respect.
I know you do, but you would be WAyyyy wrong. You still claim Ocho is a HoF'er.. .that alone proves me right :beer:



And you may watch more Chief football than me, but from everything that I have seen, the guy is a top five corner.

I'm seeing less and less of Champ being out there on an island against his guy. I'm seeing him get beaten more and more. I'm taking into account that the defense around him is laughable and that his pass rush is as effective the cake and ice cream diet.

No way Flowers is a top 5, but the Chiefs defense sure as hell has a lot better pass rush than Denver does, not to mention they have a STUD at safety that is a corner's best friend. Denver absolutely does not.

[cuzz4169]

You mean in 2009, and during that season (even though we had one of the worst defenses in the NFL), how many TD passes were thrown against Champ? How many were thrown against Champ in 2008 when we, again, had one of the worst defenses in the NFL?

Also.. if its a 4 year deal, why are you asking if one year is worth it? :confused:

Bc I think he has only one real good season left...how many CBs are studs at age 34? Just so you know we had the #7 ranked defense in 2009 we just couldn't stop run. #3 ranked in pass and what was our record again? 2008 we ranked 29th in overall defense 26th in pass so the difference champ has made in our total defense & wins is what? not 10m worth in my opinion.

[Ravage!!!]

I'm telling you right NOW...If they did a poll in the NFL who's top 5 cornerbacks Champ doesn't make list. you guys just don't see it Champ was not on any all-pro team & was an injury replacement for pro bowl....again champ is a top 10 cornerback back right now. But there are a lot of guys just as good. How much longer does the top 10 last?

I would say you are probably right, maybe, but who are we polling?

I ask because there are several things to factor in. Prime-time coverage, team records.. then you have teams that have better pass rushers and over the top safeties that help a corner's ability.

But even if you are talking top 7-8.. most of those are purely speculative at best. Meaning a guy ranked as the 8th on 1 list could just as easily be #4 on another, and NEITHER would be wrong.

[KCL]

No way Flowers is a top 5, but the Chiefs defense sure as hell has a lot better pass rush than Denver does, not to mention they have a STUD at safety that is a corner's best friend. Denver absolutely does not.

Flowers is in his third year and is getting better the more he plays...you're right though...he shared the field with Berry who had more picks.

[Poet]

I know you do, but you would be WAyyyy wrong. You still claim Ocho is a HoF'er.. .that alone proves me right :beer:




No way Flowers is a top 5, but the Chiefs defense sure as hell has a lot better pass rush than Denver does, not to mention they have a STUD at safety that is a corner's best friend. Denver absolutely does not.

I believe I said that he was on a HoF path, and I was correct. And actually he still could although this was a key year for him. I love my awesome but silly WR.

Hali is a very good player and Eric Berry was a rookie, albeit a rookie that looks like he could potentially become the best defensive player in football.

[Ravage!!!]

Bc I think he has only one real good season left...how many CBs are studs at age 34? Just so you know we had the #7 ranked defense in 2009 we just couldn't stop run. 3 ranked in pass and what was our record again? 2008 we ranked 29th in overall defense 26th in pass so the difference champ has made in our total defense & wins is what? not 10m worth in my opinion.

I get where you are coming from, and I've said for the last 2+ years that we don't resign Champ.

But I could take that EXACT same stats you just used and say that about EVERY PLAYER on the team. So then why keep anyone? Dumervile should go too. Its a team effort and you have to layer for the best to shine at their greatest. A top DE alone isn't going to change the defense, but you team that up with a good corner, a good LB and a good DT, and th ings start adding up.

YOu start removing pieces, and then you have to find OTHER pieces to replace the ones you already have... and THAT is the main point of people wanting to keep champ. We've seen what this last FO did by removing this team's talent. You can't simply replace, and it DESTROYED the very best building block we had.. purely because of the belief that we can simply "replace" talent with other players. DOesn't work out that way in reality.

I get that Champ may be too expensive because of his age, but at the same time, because he's playing at a top level still, why get rid of whats good purely in HOPES of finding something "as" good?

[cuzz4169]

I would say you are probably right, maybe, but who are we polling?

I ask because there are several things to factor in. Prime-time coverage, team records.. then you have teams that have better pass rushers and over the top safeties that help a corner's ability.

But even if you are talking top 7-8.. most of those are purely speculative at best. Meaning a guy ranked as the 8th on 1 list could just as easily be #4 on another, and NEITHER would be wrong.

I understand that...A good corner is a good corner no mater what. But your talking about team defense...what denver needs and not throwing 10+ mil to a 33yr old CB. Again I love Champ been a huge fan since he's been here...but it's time to move on we are rebuilding hopefully not giving 10mil to a 33yr old CB.

[BigSarge87]

Cuzz, I'm starting to see where your coming from, maybe it won't be as hard to replace him as it seems. Granted, I'm extremely partial to him. But still, Champ is still here, he doesn't need to be replaced yet. Giving him the FT or getting a deal done with him will allow us to focus on other weak spots on the defense this year. We can worry about CB next year after we rape the draft of all its good DL talent this year.

[cuzz4169]

I get where you are coming from, and I've said for the last 2+ years that we don't resign Champ.

But I could take that EXACT same stats you just used and say that about EVERY PLAYER on the team. So then why keep anyone? Dumervile should go too. Its a team effort and you have to layer for the best to shine at their greatest. A top DE alone isn't going to change the defense, but you team that up with a good corner, a good LB and a good DT, and th ings start adding up.

YOu start removing pieces, and then you have to find OTHER pieces to replace the ones you already have... and THAT is the main point of people wanting to keep champ. We've seen what this last FO did by removing this team's talent. You can't simply replace, and it DESTROYED the very best building block we had.. purely because of the belief that we can simply "replace" talent with other players. DOesn't work out that way in reality.

I get that Champ may be too expensive because of his age, but at the same time, because he's playing at a top level still, why get rid of whats good purely in HOPES of finding something "as" good?

well you keep Doom bc he's 27 and you cant win if you can't pressure the QB. If your starting fresh and building a team first three things you need is a stud LT, Stud DE, & a QB in really no order. now you build around that and that's a good start.

The front office removing our talent the last couple yrs was crazy bc all of the guys are young that's what hurts. We just drafted those guys.

Now I don't know what are salary cap # is or what is gonna be of the cap. But if we can afford to keep champ and fill holes I'm for it....But if we can't and champ has to go then that's what has to be. If this was 2005 and we are having this conversation....well...better not be one!! lol

[cuzz4169]

Cuzz, I'm starting to see where your coming from, maybe it won't be as hard to replace him as it seems. Granted, I'm extremely partial to him. But still, Champ is still here, he doesn't need to be replaced yet. Giving him the FT or getting a deal done with him will allow us to focus on other weak spots on the defense this year. We can worry about CB next year after we rape the draft of all its good DL talent this year.

Trust me I'm a homer and a big Champ fan too....If I was having this conversation with my local friends I would argue champ is the best CB in the league...just for pride...but I really know he's not. If our defense was solid and in the top 10 keeping champ would be a must. But we suck and we have sucked with champ. Not saying it's his fault but im for using that 10mil and signing maybe a couple CB's...again we won 2 super bowls with avg. cb play at best...it was team defense...pressure the qb and cause turnovers being + in the +/- is huge and a big part of winning in the NFL. We haven't done that.

[Juriga72]

Trust me I'm a homer and a big Champ fan too....If I was having this conversation with my local friends I would argue champ is the best CB in the league...just for pride...but I really know he's not. If our defense was solid and in the top 10 keeping champ would be a must. But we suck and we have sucked with champ. Not saying it's his fault but im for using that 10mil and signing maybe a couple CB's...again we won 2 super bowls with avg. cb play at best...it was team defense...pressure the qb and cause turnovers being + in the +/- is huge and a big part of winning in the NFL. We haven't done that.

One thing I noticed is that when Al Wilson left.... things REALLY started sucking...even WITH Champ. We have one year with Doom rushing and we are #3 passing....

33 year old Cb's dont make you a top 5 team....

[cuzz4169]

One thing I noticed is that when Al Wilson left.... things REALLY started sucking...even WITH Champ. We have one year with Doom rushing and we are #3 passing....

33 year old Cb's dont make you a top 5 team....

Al Wilson is a god in my eye's!!!! Its so sad there aren't any highlights of him on youtube.

[BeefStew25]

Wait. King thinks Ocho is a HOFer?

What a total limp dick dumb shit.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Get him re-signed. This is about way more than his play over the next 3 years, which will be upper-echelon. Maybe not top 5, but maybe it still will be. Regardless, dude can play. You can all dispute the rankings. Some of the names listed are laughable, but that's a dif post for a dif day. Dude can still play. I dare someone to challenge him within the first 3-4 seconds of a route. Dare them. We are NOT close to being good in 2011. That is why we SHOULD pay him. He's a Bronco and should retire as such. I don't wanna waste the money on some journeymen mercernaries who come in, get a check, make us about average and bolt. I want Champ. Paying him now won't effect the team when we are truly ready to make a run at things. His presence gives us a hope of crediility on defense. Bring Doom back, put DJ ack where he belongs and draft a stud DT. Our D goes from laughing stock to average. INSTANTLY. I want Champ to be here when we do sniff the playoffs in 2012. I want there to be no doubt that he dons the yellow jacket as a Bronco. Screw the cap number. Screw young "solid" replacements. This should be about more than that. It should be about Champ's farewell tour being in a Bronco uniform...no matter the cost. Just my 2 cents...

[BeefStew25]

If we don't lock him up, we are going to be doing what we don't want to do: build from free agency again.

Or, have another Perrish Cocks.

[cuzz4169]

Get him re-signed. This is about way more than his play over the next 3 years, which will be upper-echelon. Maybe not top 5, but maybe it still will be. Regardless, dude can play. You can all dispute the rankings. Some of the names listed are laughable, but that's a dif post for a dif day. Dude can still play. I dare someone to challenge him within the first 3-4 seconds of a route. Dare them. We are NOT close to being good in 2011. That is why we SHOULD pay him. He's a Bronco and should retire as such. I don't wanna waste the money on some journeymen mercernaries who come in, get a check, make us about average and bolt. I want Champ. Paying him now won't effect the team when we are truly ready to make a run at things. His presence gives us a hope of crediility on defense. Bring Doom back, put DJ ack where he belongs and draft a stud DT. Our D goes from laughing stock to average. INSTANTLY. I want Champ to be here when we do sniff the playoffs in 2012. I want there to be no doubt that he dons the yellow jacket as a Bronco. Screw the cap number. Screw young "solid" replacements. This should be about more than that. It should be about Champ's farewell tour being in a Bronco uniform...no matter the cost. Just my 2 cents...

I stopped reading after you mentioned DJ...God I hope he's the first out the door...Mr. Overrated Bronco...He is one player that only Bronco fans think he's good. Avg at best.

[Poet]

Wait. King thinks Ocho is a HOFer?

What a total limp dick dumb shit.

You show a little class when you speak of me.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I stopped reading after you mentioned DJ...God I hope he's the first out the door...Mr. Overrated Bronco...He is one player that only Bronco fans think he's good. Avg at best.

Guy has been tossed from 1 position to another his entire career. He's the perfect WILL, but played MIKE, SAM and 3-4 Inside FOR THE TEAM. Get him back to the correct position and it's no longer an area of concern. I'm sure he appreciates your support.

[cuzz4169]

Guy has been tossed from 1 position to another his entire career. He's the perfect WILL, but played MIKE, SAM and 3-4 Inside FOR THE TEAM. Get him back to the correct position and it's no longer an area of concern. I'm sure he appreciates your support.

no support from me...Yea and he's been avg at every position he's played...I think we can plug anyone on our roster to do what he does...

[SmilinAssasSin27]

He was a monster at WILL. 114 tackles as a rookie. Then Ian (the REALLY overrated one) wanted to come back and DJ was pushed over to SAM cuz they knew he'd be better than Gold. He is not a fit at SAM and the stats clearly demonstrate that. He wasn't terrible in the middle, with 141 tackles in 2007. That is good, right? He had some limitations there, but still did it w/o crying. And even the past 2 years w/ NO HELP up front in a 3-4 of all systems, he managed a mere 241 tackles and 9 sacks. Yer right. He's awful.

[cuzz4169]

DJ took over for Al Wilson in 2007 run defense went from 12 to 30th and has been shit ever since...

[BeefStew25]

Tackles don't mean shit after a 7 yard gain.

[cuzz4169]

He was a monster at WILL. 114 tackles as a rookie. Then Ian (the REALLY overrated one) wanted to come back and DJ was pushed over to SAM cuz they knew he'd be better than Gold. He is not a fit at SAM and the stats clearly demonstrate that. He wasn't terrible in the middle, with 141 tackles in 2007. That is good, right? He had some limitations there, but still did it w/o crying. And even the past 2 years w/ NO HELP up front in a 3-4 of all systems, he managed a mere 241 tackles and 9 sacks. Yer right. He's awful.

hahahahahaha # of tackles mean nothing London Fletcher is top 10 in tackles every year does that make him a stud? Paul Posluszny was third this year hahahahaha I live in Buffalo I watch him, Buffalo fans can't wait for him to leave...he's terrible.

DJ almost always is out of position he overruns plays can't get off blocks...and always tackling from behind...If he meets a FB in the hole it would be the first time I ever seen it. He is not physical at all and thats not what this defense needs...for the tackles he has I'd say he has 75 missed tackles.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Vic Lombardi reported on sports tonight that Champ's offer was 4 yrs - 40 MIL, BUT, few guarantees.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Al Wilson was a beast. But that has very little to do with my point about DJ playing WILL. My argument is that DJ hasn't been as terrible as he is made out to be. He isn't a MIKE yet he played there and put up some pertty good numbers. He IS a WILL and the only season he was allowed to play there, he excelled.

Stew, You say 7 yards downfield, I say it's a shame that Courtney Brown was our big DLIne FA acquisition of the decade.

[cuzz4169]

Vic Lombardi reported on sports tonight that Champ's offer was 4 yrs - 40 MIL, BUT, few guarantees.

I wouldn't give anymore than that....that's a pretty good offer for a soon to b 33yr old cb.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

hahahahahaha # of tackles mean nothing London Fletcher is top 10 in tackles every year does that make him a stud? Paul Posluszny was third this year hahahahaha I live in Buffalo I watch him, Buffalo fans can't wait for him to leave...he's terrible.

DJ almost always is out of position he overruns plays can't get off blocks...and always tackling from behind...If he meets a FB in the hole it would be the first time I ever seen it. He is not physical at all and thats not what this defense means...for the tackles he has I'd say he has 75 missed tackles.

I'm willing to bet you are in the minority with regards to London Fletcher's ability to play football.

And I'm also willing to bet that Poz would be more loved if he wasn't hurt all the time. The Bills fans/season ticket holders that I associate with actually like his on field play. They just hate that he's rarely on the field.

[BeefStew25]

Al Wilson was a beast. But that has very little to do with my point about DJ playing WILL. My argument is that DJ hasn't been as terrible as he is made out to be. He isn't a MIKE yet he played there and put up some pertty good numbers. He IS a WILL and the only season he was allowed to play there, he excelled.

Stew, You say 7 yards downfield, I say it's a shame that Courtney Brown was our big DLIne FA acquisition of the decade.

If we can trade DJ for anything, I say we do it. He is dumb.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

If we can trade DJ for anything, I say we do it. He is dumb.

U R dumb.:salute:

[BeefStew25]

U R dumb.:salute:

Surprised you don't have you boi TT in a thong as your sig.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Surprised you don't have you boi TT in a thong as your sig.

Blumpkin

[cuzz4169]

I'm willing to bet you are in the minority with regards to London Fletcher's ability to play football.

And I'm also willing to bet that Poz would be more loved if he wasn't hurt all the time. The Bills fans/season ticket holders that I associate with actually like his on field play. They just hate that he's rarely on the field.

London Fletcher is an above avg MLB not a stud....Poz is a mystery bills suck he gets hurt but he's another guy who makes tackles down field.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

London Fletcher is an above avg MLB not a stud....Poz is a mystery bills suck he gets hurt but he's another guy who makes tackles down field.

I'll take above average every day of the week.

[cuzz4169]

I'll take above average every day of the week.

I agree...I didn't say I wouldn't take him. I want Stephen Tulloch or Barrett Ruud.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Love me some Tulloch (no homo)

One of the few FAs I'd be cool signing.

[Bullgator]

guess we draft peterson =(

[gobroncsnv]

champ had the leading sack guy in the NFL last year. Champ is not top 3 anymore...and even if he's top 5...how long does that last? if he gets a 4 yr deal at 10 mil a yr is one yr worth it?

So you're thinking we get Dooms back and we're good to go? We only need one decent guy up front? His 17 (or so) sacks aren't even half enough of what a decent defense has as a year's total. We need like 3 guys with his abilities. Right now, Champ's talents are wasted, because there is no one on the "top 5" list who can cover as long as Champ has to. Sorry, but even with Dooms at the top of his game, our QB pressure is not NEARLY enough. If Denver is nuts enough to let Champ go and then turn around and pick up Peterson, the disappointment will be pretty bitter. CB ain't the problem, and Champ's playing years could be extended (heck, he might even have fun again) if Fox gets serious about building a D the right way, AND STAYING WITH IT FOR MORE THAN A SINGLE SEASON...
I wouldn't spend a 10 mill contract on him, but I'd sure love to see what he could do in Denver with a decent front 7. (ALL 7, not just 1).

[silkamilkamonico]

Thanks for everything Champ, but we both need to move on.

Champ needs to go to a team that can help him win a SuperBowl, and Denver needs to use that money on players that can be a foundation to the future of this team.

I love Champ and he's been outstanding, but I wouldn't give him top 10 CB money, ONLY because the state of this organization is in.

[cuzz4169]

Love me some Tulloch (no homo)

One of the few FAs I'd be cool signing.

Ill give ya my list of FA's I'd love. I'd take anyone of these guys.

DeAngelo Williams, Zach Miller, Bo Scaife, Michael Bush, Mathias Kiwanuka, Ray Edwards, Brandon Mebane, Paul Soliai, Stephen Tulloch, James Anderson, Thomas Davis (cheap), Barrett Ruud, D’Qwell Jackson, Brent Grimes, Carlos Rogers, Johnathan Joseph, Antonio Cromartie, Richard Marshall, Fabian Washington, Josh Wilson, Stanford Routt, Quintin Mikell, Eric Weddle, Tanard Jackson, Tom Zbikowski, Dawan Landry

Just a list of guys I would look at.

[cuzz4169]

I love Champ and he's been outstanding, but I wouldn't give him top 10 CB money, ONLY because the state of this organization is in.

I fully agree.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I'm not sure why people assume he's just going to become a great or even good safety. I also don't know why people think that he's still an elite top five corner, he's not.

It's a mistake to resign him for any large amount of money. He's a good corner, not a great one. When the end of a career comes, it comes fast. It's not inconceivable that he has another strong year and then next year blows.

If you are basically blowing up everything and starting new, why would you even want him?

If keeping Champ is the difference between winning two or three games, that's a good thing. But if you're going to be 6-10 with him, why is it worth it?

Assuming that there is a season next year, I would want to sign Champ and then trade him.

Says the guy that thinks Joseph and Hall are "elite" CBs...

Champ is still as good as anyone else who laces them up on Sunday. Most importantly, he is a locker room leader. Nobody questions his work ethic or motivation and he's a role model that the coaches depend on.

Everyone is getting wrapped around the axle by his age... Charles Woodson is older than Champ, yet the Packers wouldn't dream of not having him around. He's worth it to them based on what he brings to the table.

Folks are also getting wrapped around the axle about his cost... money doesn't mean shit in the NFL. Guys are crying about the cap space Champ will eat (if there even ever is a cap again) as if by letting Champ leave the team is going to magically turn the money we are paying him into productive players. FYI, they aren't going to use the money they save on Champ to sign the FAs or pay the draft picks that the fans want. The savings will just go into Bowen's pocket... especially this year. So, we'll lose Champ for, that's right, nothing. Maybe we'll get lucky and waste the #2 overall pick on a new flashy CB to "replace" Champ (Peterson will NEVER be Champ Bailey, ever) instead of addressing the DL! That would be super awesome! :rolleyes:

That's like the Colts allowing Peyton Manning or the Pats allowing Tom Brady to leave to get their huge salaries off the books. Does anyone think they'll be easy to replace? They are both on the bad side of 30 and neither has won a Superbowl in years... why keep them around, right? With the money they'd save, the Colts could replace their whole defense! AND THEY'D SUCK AS THEY STRUGGLED TO REPLACE A FRANCHISE PLAYER.

Getting Champ's $15 mil off the books sure as shit won't make us better, it will just create another gaping hole at a position that doesn't look very stacked anyway. We're not going to find a guy to replace him and nobody currently on the roster is anywhere close.

I saw some guys listing all these FA CBs (none of whom could hold Champ's jock, even at 32) and I wonder if it occurred to me that even if their current teams don't re-sign them (like Richard Marshall) that they won't want close to Champ-type money, anyway? Isn't that what young, good players want when they hit FA for the first time... to get PAID? What makes you think a guy like Marshall who's coming off a good season isn't going to want/get top dollar in FA?

Bottom line is, allowing Champ Bailey to leave via FA will not make us a better team. Isn't that the overall goal?

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Ill give ya my list of FA's I'd love. I'd take anyone of these guys.


Just a list of guys I would look at.

DeAngelo Williams...loke him, but always hurt and will cost too much
Zach Miller...LOVE Miller
Bo Scaife...no
Michael Bush...HELL no...just got arrested, right?
Mathias Kiwanuka...coming off major injury
Ray Edwards...I'd be cool with this
Brandon Mebane...YES
Paul Soliai...no opinion
Stephen Tulloch...YES
James Anderson...YES
Thomas Davis...NOOOOOO, hurt a lot and really not that good
Barrett Ruud...like him, but prefer others
D’Qwell Jackson...Special place in my heart, used to have Terp season tix...cheap injury project
Brent Grimes...Is he even a FA?
Carlos Rogers...no
Johnathan Joseph...I'd be cool with
Antonio Cromartie...VOMIT, overrated and will overvalue himself
Richard Marshall...for the right price
Fabian Washington, Josh Wilson, Stanford Routt, Quintin Mikell, Eric Weddle, Tanard Jackson, Tom Zbikowski, Dawan Landry...No to all. They all suck, except Mikell

I'm really not keen on the idea of bringing in average players via free agency. Ya end up paying too much. I'd much rather use the draft to acquire depth. I don't know of any good teams who build via FA. The Jets are the closest, but their old coach brought some of his boys and they did a lot of trading. They also used FA to "finish it off" cuz they think they're close.

Most of the dudes listed above are who they are. Most aren't making an impact...much like the last decade of Bronco defensive FAs. So I say, what's the point of bothering? Our Safeties are as good or better than Tom Zbikowski. Same w/ our LBs and Thomas Davis.

There are some good names there though. Some young talent that can be built around if the contracts are FRONT loaded. IMO, It's important to pay the bulk of the deals now so that when we are good again, we'll have money for key free agents who can get us over the top. If we could sign Mebane, Tulloch and James Anderson (although possible 1 year wonder) to long term deals, re-sign Champ and draft a DLineman, I'd be a happy man, but the formula doesn't usually equal long term success. The Pats, Steelers and Colts are all teams who rarely dip into FA and they are ALWAYS in the mix. Even the Bucs, Falcons and Packers have improved their teams via smart drafting w/ the only FA additions coming to fill gaping holes.

My FA plan (which is posted elsewhere) consists of signing 2 key front line guys:

Jermon Bushrod, RT, New Orleans
Brendon Mebane, DT, Seattle

Both are young and have shown very well in their young careers. Mebane will get RICH this offseason, but Bushrod can be had for a reasonable deal due to his struggles at LT this year. He was a very good RT in 09 and we have a lefty QB.

I'd folllow that up w/ a signing of:
Richard Marshall, CB, Carolina
James Anderson

Good to have some guys who are familiar with Fox. Will help in the lockerroom. If Anderson's 1 good year prices him too high, let him go. Marshall shouldn't be too pricey in a soild year for FA CBs.

I also take a chance w/:
D'Qwell Jackson, ILB, Cleveland

Very good player, w/ injury questions. I think Tulloch will cost too much.

That's all I'd look at this year. No sense in replacing our own crap w/ someone else's. But remember, Jon Beason is scheduled to be a FA in 2012...

[cuzz4169]

I'm not saying sign all these guys lol...I'm saying if I'm the gm I just take a closer look at film. One main thing Denver needs on defense and special teams is speed. I'm a big Thomas Davis fan If he is cheap coming of injury I'd take him even if he's not 100% ready the kid was on his way to being special before injury.

All of those teams you talk about that don't build in FA are teams who can draft...Denver hasn't shown they can do that yet.

My FA plan would be like this:

We need another RB to push knowshon, Williams would be ideal but if price is to high then no. Maybe we keep White and he's the guy to push Idk. But in my opinion this is Moreno's last chance no more excuses for him. I was very high on him coming out of college, I thought he had special talent L.T. talent. Hasn't showed it yet.

Zack Miller would be great but will cost. Scaife is a pass catching TE we need and prolly a lot cheaper.

Brandon Mebane This would be my top priority. One of the most underrated players in the NFL.

Stephen Tulloch: would be my T#2 priority

Johnathan Joseph: T#2 priority I would love him if we lose champ. If we don't then nevermind lol I would settle for lesser Cb such as Washington or Richard Marshall.

Antonio Cromartie as much as I think he's a douche I think he has game...Athletically he's unmatched, Just not sure I can get passed the douche part. If you really payed attention Cromartie covered top WR more than Revis.

we need a S and I love Dawan Landry he would be my top S to look at, sorry I would release Hill & maybe Dawkins. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgFjtrCP9-Q would love him

If I would sign anything else it would be all depth and special teams.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

As crazy as it may sound, the FA RB I'd want is....Ricky Williams

He is proven and fresh for his age. Dolphins under-utilized him and I thought he was clearly better than Brown. Add the time off a few years ago and his football age is< his real age. Plus I think he comes cheap.

[WARHORSE]

Actually he's had three and has been better than Champ for the past two years. IDK, getting no safety help on a team with no pass rush and truly removing guys from the game is really crappy.


You should read this.


Champ not only shuts down top receivers, he is the epitomy of what you want in your lockeroom. A professional who knows who pays his checks, works hard every day, teaches the rookies, and never is controversial in a the bad sense of the word.

Champ should be our top priority in FAgency.

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2010/12/09/42632/

[cuzz4169]

You should read this.


Champ not only shuts down top receivers, he is the epitomy of what you want in your lockeroom. A professional who knows who pays his checks, works hard every day, teaches the rookies, and never is controversial in a the bad sense of the word.

Champ should be our top priority in FAgency.

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2010/12/09/42632/

Again I'm not disputing...Just think its very risky to sign him to top 3 CB money.

[cardoso]

Thats why I said you can't make a list, everyone here is a champ fan....If you ask on other teams forums its different. Champ is not head and shoulders above the rest of the Cb's in the NFL anymore he's not top 5...but he's in a list of top 10...

These guys I think are just as good as champ at this point of his career.

Brandon Flowers
Leon Hall
Tramon Williams
Rasean Mathis
Jabari Greer
Johnathan Joseph
Corey Webster
Chris Gamble
Quentin Jammer
Dominique Rogers-Cromartie
Vontae Davis
Deangalo Hall
Aliq Talib

Actually I would pay any of these guys 10mil before I give champ 10 mil at 33yrs old.

LMAO i've seen reevis and hall burned more times this year alone then i've seen champed burned his whole career in denver.

[cuzz4169]

LMAO i've seen reevis and hall burned more times this year alone then i've seen champed burned his whole career in denver.

Stop it!!!

[cardoso]

Stop it!!!

oh really?

revis clowned

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEA9qxSfcjk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyPtJF-IgPc

by our very own ROOKIE d thomas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8tBvGqOkgk

that was just Revis this year alone! Now do i have to go find videos of hall getting burned and dominated consistantly by Steve Smith, and Terrel ownes? remember mr. deangelo fall? lol


now post the videos of champ being burned this year and even last year! last year he didn't even GIVE UP A TD!

[dogfish]

and he basically never gets flagged for PI, rarely ever gives up a TD, and can still handle reggie wayne all game with little to no help over the top-- he can still shut out dwayne bowe. . . one of the very best run support corners in the game. . .

but he's a little older, so younger guys are automatically better now. . . ****in' clowns like cortland finnegan and deangelo hall are now just as good if not better. . .


what a laugh. . .

[cardoso]

and he basically never gets flagged for PI, rarely ever gives up a TD, and can still handle reggie wayne all game with little to no help over the top-- he can still shut out dwayne bowe. . . one of the very best run support corners in the game. . .

but he's a little older, so younger guys are automatically better now. . . ****in' clowns like cortland finnegan and deangelo hall are now just as good if not better. . .


what a laugh. . .

im with you. Champ bailey does nothing but shut down every wr he faces including bowe and wayne this year and yet people still say he's not good. I'd take him over revis any day of the week. and not only is he a great cover guy he hardley EVER misses a tackle is a great guy and has done nothing but good for denver.

[cuzz4169]

I'm not gonna debate who's better I'm a champ fan. I say this in this just a couple of yrs ago Champ was the best period no questions asked...no debate...You don't think it's weird now he's going to pro bowls on injury replacement and not making all pro teams? Champ in my eye's is still elite but for how much longer? 4yr contract worthy at 10m+ a season?

By the way bc you can post a couple of videos of a guy getting beat so what. Charles Woodson got beat in 2009 oh and guess what he won DPOY. Don't be a super homer to another homer. Be a football fan or have some sort of knowledge.

[cuzz4169]

here's revis in 2009

http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/9203/versus-revis-all-wrs-in-elimination-game

Stats Inc. tracked every pass attempt during the season and found Revis was targeted 108 times. Only four cornerbacks were thrown at more frequently: Arizona's Bryant McFadden (113), Pittsburgh's Ike Taylor (110), Arizona's Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie (109) and Cincinnati's Johnathan Joseph (109).

[cardoso]

I'm not gonna debate who's better I'm a champ fan. I say this in this just a couple of yrs ago Champ was the best period no questions asked...no debate...You don't think it's weird now he's going to pro bowls on injury replacement and not making all pro teams? Champ in my eye's is still elite but for how much longer? 4yr contract worthy at 10m+ a season?

By the way bc you can post a couple of videos of a guy getting beat so what. Charles Woodson got beat in 2009 oh and guess what he won DPOY. Don't be a super homer to another homer. Be a football fan or have some sort of knowledge.

I said I seen revis burned more times this year alone than i've seen champ his whole career in denver. I posted the videos of him getting burned his year alone to prove my point. So how again is that a homer? I proved my point and gave my evidence to it. Where's your evidence to counter mine in proving it's false?

[cardoso]

here's revis in 2009

http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/9203/versus-revis-all-wrs-in-elimination-game

Stats Inc. tracked every pass attempt during the season and found Revis was targeted 108 times. Only four cornerbacks were thrown at more frequently: Arizona's Bryant McFadden (113), Pittsburgh's Ike Taylor (110), Arizona's Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie (109) and Cincinnati's Johnathan Joseph (109).

are you aware that revis gave up more td's this year alone than champ has given up the last 4 years combined? champ has allowed 0 td's in 9 of his 12 nfl years.

[cuzz4169]

whats your point? that champ is better than Revis? if you took a vote on any broncos forum the vote would end up in Revis favor. Why am I wasting my time? Stupid debate anyone and everyone knows who the top 2 CB's are and after that it for debate. Look at any list and tell me who's top 2? Oh but you showed me a video of him giving up a couple of TD's lol. Joke!!

[cardoso]

whats your point? that champ is better than Revis? if you took a vote on any broncos forum the vote would end up in Revis favor. Why am I wasting my time? Stupid debate anyone and everyone knows who the top 2 CB's are and after that it for debate. Look at any list and tell me who's top 2? Oh but you showed me a video of him giving up a couple of TD's lol. Joke!!


you don't know about what you're talking about. you're too stuck in thinking you are so correct you can't look at the FACTS! you watch too much ESPN and it shows. and you fail to mention champ did all this in 2010 while playing in one of the worst defenses in nfl history.

[cardoso]

oh really?

revis clowned

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEA9qxSfcjk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyPtJF-IgPc

by our very own ROOKIE d thomas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8tBvGqOkgk

that was just Revis this year alone! Now do i have to go find videos of hall getting burned and dominated consistantly by Steve Smith, and Terrel ownes? remember mr. deangelo fall? lol


now post the videos of champ being burned this year and even last year! last year he didn't even GIVE UP A TD!

and still no evidence, proof, or facts to prove this post wrong.

[dogfish]

whats your point? that champ is better than Revis? if you took a vote on any broncos forum the vote would end up in Revis favor. Why am I wasting my time? Stupid debate anyone and everyone knows who the top 2 CB's are and after that it for debate. Look at any list and tell me who's top 2? Oh but you showed me a video of him giving up a couple of TD's lol. Joke!!

so a fan poll is supposed to be some sort of evidence?

come on, man. . .

i won't argue champ's coverage skills vs. revis at this stage of their respective careers, but i will against anyone else. . . you posted target numbers, cardoso posted touchdowns allowed-- now which of those is more important? no one's talking about bailey's rep, we're talking about what the guy has been doing on the field-- recently, the past two-three years, including this past season. . .

the guy just doesn't get beat that much, period. . . and he rarely ever gives up touchdowns, and he basically never gives up PI calls, cheap or otherwise. . . add in great run support, and exactly what else do you want a corner to do??

what, he's not great anymore because he doesn't get as many picks? go look how many asomugha ever gets. . .

[cuzz4169]

you don't shit about what you're talking about. you're too stuck in thinking you are so correct you can't look at the FACTS! you watch too much ESPN and it shows.

hahahahahaha!!! I guess I'm the only one who thinks that then bc I watch to much ESPN..I did watch Bowe catch 13 passes for 186 and 2 TD's against Denver...Did Champ cover him? Didn't champ give up a TD to Ben Obomanu? Didn't he give one up to Braylon Edwards? Fitzgerald caught six passes for 72 yards, when the starting QB only passed for 141yards thats more than half. Off the top of my head what about last yr Santonio Holmes and Hines Ward embarrassed Champ on ESPN.

I'm just saying don't act like Champ doesn't get beat also.

[cuzz4169]

so a fan poll is supposed to be some sort of evidence?

come on, man. . .

i won't argue champ's coverage skills vs. revis at this stage of their respective careers, but i will against anyone else. . . you posted target numbers, cardoso posted touchdowns allowed-- now which of those is more important? no one's talking about bailey's rep, we're talking about what the guy has been doing on the field-- recently, the past two-three years, including this past season. . .

the guy just doesn't get beat that much, period. . . and he rarely ever gives up touchdowns, and he basically never gives up PI calls, cheap or otherwise. . . add in great run support, and exactly what else do you want a corner to do??

what, he's not great anymore because he doesn't get as many picks? go look how many asomugha ever gets. . .

Yes a fan poll...what are you a fan right? Do a coaches poll, do a players poll it don't matter.

Champ Bailey has not had a good CB on the other side of him since Williams. Why would teams pass champs way when the other CB's blow? Manning hardly ever tries he will throw to Clark or let his #2 or #3 wr beat us up.

And those werent just target it was also against WR #'s


Receivers vs. Darrelle Revis And Rest Of The NFL
Week Receiver vs. Revis (Rec-Yds-TD) Avg vs. rest of NFL TD
1 Andre Johnson, Texans 4-35-0 7-105 9
2 Randy Moss, Patriots 4-24-0 5-86 12
4 Marques Colston, Saints 2-33-0 5-70 9
6 Terrell Owens, Bills 3-13-0 4-76 4
10 Mike Sims-Walker, Jaguars 3-49-1 4-54 7
11 Randy Moss, Patriots 5-34-1 5-86 12
12 Steve Smith, Panthers 1-5-0 5-70 7
13 Terrell Owens, Bills 3-31-0 4-56 4
15 Roddy White, Falcons 4-33-0 5-75 10
16 Reggie Wayne, Colts 3-33-0 7-82 10
17 Chad Ochocinco*, Bengals 0-0-0 5-70 9
*Snapped streak of 120 consecutive games with a reception

[cuzz4169]

Maybe you don't get what I'm saying..I said Champ is an elite CB still. But to say he's the best at this stage of his career is crazy. There are for sure 2 CB's better than him right now, the rest of the other 5-8 are debatable.

[BroncoWave]

Hmm, looks like I may be in line for a new username soon.

[rcsodak]

Revis and Nnmadi are two guys who are obvious. Flowers, Jonathan Josph are also better. One could argue Woodson, but I don't like the fact that he rarely lines up against a number one WR with great speed.
Oh, ok. I thought you were making a fact-based statement instead of your personal opinion. My bad.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[rcsodak]

Free Safety in the NFL is now more about speed than ever before. Do I expect him to suddenly become a slow old man? No, assuming that he's going to even be a good safety is silly.

I don't know why everyone just looks at the number one WR's numbers and goes 'he got shut down'. Champ isn't always lined up against the number one WR. I remember several games between our two teams where Champ was lined up against Housh or Chris Henry for some plays.
He USED to just play the one xide, which allowed teams to move their wr's around. But recently, he's actually STAYED with the #1's. Maybe you missed the 2nd kc game.....bowe=0 yds. That happened twice last yr, only. And I'll believe a perennial all-pro/certain HOF S in Lynch who believes champ will be just as good as he is at cb, no offense 87.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[rcsodak]

He was a monster at WILL. 114 tackles as a rookie. Then Ian (the REALLY overrated one) wanted to come back and DJ was pushed over to SAM cuz they knew he'd be better than Gold. He is not a fit at SAM and the stats clearly demonstrate that. He wasn't terrible in the middle, with 141 tackles in 2007. That is good, right? He had some limitations there, but still did it w/o crying. And even the past 2 years w/ NO HELP up front in a 3-4 of all systems, he managed a mere 241 tackles and 9 sacks. Yer right. He's awful.
Sometimes stats are best not used as an argument. DJ's for example. Sorry, but having rb's run into you 6yds past the LOS, and being listed as a tackle, is just wrong.
Would elite lb's do better, behind his sadsack DL's? Dunno
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[rcsodak]

Vic Lombardi reported on sports tonight that Champ's offer was 4 yrs - 40 MIL, BUT, few guarantees.
Good, business wise. Prolly gets a nice bonus every spring that he's around. Balls in champs court....or did it bounce away along with wink?
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[rcsodak]

If we can trade DJ for anything, I say we do it. He is dumb.Cleveland
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[Ravage!!!]

With few guarantees, no player is going to take it, and don't blame them.

[rcsodak]

I'm not gonna debate who's better I'm a champ fan. I say this in this just a couple of yrs ago Champ was the best period no questions asked...no debate...You don't think it's weird now he's going to pro bowls on injury replacement and not making all pro teams? Champ in my eye's is still elite but for how much longer? 4yr contract worthy at 10m+ a season?

By the way bc you can post a couple of videos of a guy getting beat so what. Charles Woodson got beat in 2009 oh and guess what he won DPOY. Don't be a super homer to another homer. Be a football fan or have some sort of knowledge.
How many all pros come from losing teams, terrible on their side of the ball?
No different than the Heisman only going to players on winning teams.
Not fair, but just the way it is.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[rcsodak]

With few guarantees, no player is going to take it, and don't blame them.Rav, you act like this is a 1st, with less guarantees. The one thing I do admire about you is your undying lovefest for the players. When it comes to pay or them vs the FO, there is no bigger advocate, imo. But that doesn't mean you're right. Lol. Champs a big boy and has pocketed more money in his career than (fill in analogy). Wasn't he the highest paid cb EVER, at one time? On average-below average D's?
Wouldnt that be like having the highest paid QB in the league, only to handoff 90% of each game? "Heck of a nice guy on/off the field, but didn't do much to win games."
I'm only being a devils advocate, as I still think cb is an elite cb, and will prove it with better players surrounding him. I just think he needs to temper his demands. The only guarantee in life,is/should only be, that it ends.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[cuzz4169]

How many all pros come from losing teams, terrible on their side of the ball?
No different than the Heisman only going to players on winning teams.
Not fair, but just the way it is.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Just to put a bump in that theory: Arian Foster, Vonta Leach, Jason Witten, Jake Long, Joe Thomas, Ndamukong Suh, Patrick Willis, Nnamdi Asomugha, Adrian Peterson, Brandon Lloyd, Calvin Johnson, Kyle Williams, Cameron Wake, DeMarcus Ware & Michael Griffin all bad teams.

All pro team is pretty legit. I don't believe you only make it if your on a good team. Champ made it before when our pass defense was terrible.

[topscribe]

Revis and Nnmadi are two guys who are obvious. Flowers, Jonathan Josph are also better. One could argue Woodson, but I don't like the fact that he rarely lines up against a number one WR with great speed.

Again, in Champ you are talking about a corner who played behind a front seven
that totaled 23 sacks for the entire season. Revis' team totaled 40, and Nnamdi's
47. So Champ trumped those two without the same kind of support from a
pass rush.

This is why Brandon Marshall said Champ is still the best corner he has faced -
and he has faced the other two. And, since Marshall is no longer a teammate of
Champ's, he doesn't have to hand out platitudes, but then, he has never
been inclined to do that, anyway.

In this defense, Champ has played on an island of which the others know not,
and he still has literally shut down Pro Bowl receivers. He is not only in the top
five, but he is still the best of them all, IMO.

-----

[vandammage13]

Sounds to me like he's getting ready to upgrade his house after signing a long term deal with us.

[rcsodak]

Just to put a bump in that theory: Arian Foster, Vonta Leach, Jason Witten, Jake Long, Joe Thomas, Ndamukong Suh, Patrick Willis, Nnamdi Asomugha, Adrian Peterson, Brandon Lloyd, Calvin Johnson, Kyle Williams, Cameron Wake, DeMarcus Ware & Michael Griffin all bad teams.

All pro team is pretty legit. I don't believe you only make it if your on a good team. Champ made it before when our pass defense was terrible. stat leaders, much? *wink*
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[cuzz4169]

lol yea sure. Nnamdi Asomugha 19 tackles 0int 0 sacks...what he lead in stats? Kyle Williams 54 tackles 6 sacks what he lead in stats? Calvin Johnson what stat he lead? Patrick Willis 10th in tackles...what other stat he lead? Michael Griffin what he lead in? Vonta Leach he lead in blocks?

[rcsodak]

lol yea sure. Nnamdi Asomugha 19 tackles 0int 0 sacks...what he lead in stats? Kyle Williams 54 tackles 6 sacks what he lead in stats? Calvin Johnson what stat he lead? Patrick Willis 10th in tackles...what other stat he lead? Michael Griffin what he lead in? Vonta Leach he lead in blocks?
Do I really have to explain each players attributes? Willis-considered to be best young lb? Heart/soul of team. Who blocked for #1 rb? Who's considered best young wr(w/healthy qb)? Etc....etc......etc.......
For somebody that" loves" cb, you sure are spending a larger amount of time proving otherwise.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[Poet]

Again, in Champ you are talking about a corner who played behind a front seven
that totaled 23 sacks for the entire season. Revis' team totaled 40, and Nnamdi's
47. So Champ trumped those two without the same kind of support from a
pass rush.

This is why Brandon Marshall said Champ is still the best corner he has faced -
and he has faced the other two. And, since Marshall is no longer a teammate of
Champ's, he doesn't have to hand out platitudes, but then, he has never
been inclined to do that, anyway.

In this defense, Champ has played on an island of which the others know not,
and he still has literally shut down Pro Bowl receivers. He is not only in the top
five, but he is still the best of them all, IMO.

-----
But he's not actually trumping them. I've watched Champ get beaten more and more. The Jets got a lot of coverage sacks because of Revis. They also got a lot of sacks because that defense is incredible.

But you can't actually tell me that Champ plays on an island more than either of those two guys because I know that is not true.

Cornerback is not a position that you can justify with statistics. There are some bad corners who have a good INT number because they only play on the ball and are willing to get beat. Sometimes you have worldbeaters like Deion Sanders who can do that and still not get beaten often.

Typically, when you have guys like Champ, Nnamdi or Revis, in their prime, they have one or two years with great INT totals before quarterbacks learn to just ignore whatever poor WR the corner is on.

I'm watching these guys play, and I'm seeing more passes being completed against Champ on the other two. Yes, some of it is because Champ's defense blows.

Some of it is because he's 32 years old. He's not the same dynamic guy that he was back in the day. Age happens. But to say that he's better than Revis, that position is assinine. Look last year at the guys Revis faced and blanked. It was a whose who of the top ten WR's. He had what may as well have been the best season for a CB of all time in an era where sneezing on a WR is a pass interference call.

I fully believe that Bailey is going to go down as a better corner than Revis or Nnamdi. He has ten or so stud seasons, Revis and Nnamdi don't.

But you're not watching with objective eyes if you think that he's a top flight corner at this point.

[Buff]

King, after the 2009-2010 season I would have agreed with you. But the guy looked like the Champ of 5 years ago in 2010-2011 IMO. Granted, he was in a contract year and he is getting older... But he was absolutely one of the Top 5 DBs in the league this past season.

[BroncoStud]

But he's not actually trumping them. I've watched Champ get beaten more and more. The Jets got a lot of coverage sacks because of Revis. They also got a lot of sacks because that defense is incredible.

But you can't actually tell me that Champ plays on an island more than either of those two guys because I know that is not true.

Cornerback is not a position that you can justify with statistics. There are some bad corners who have a good INT number because they only play on the ball and are willing to get beat. Sometimes you have worldbeaters like Deion Sanders who can do that and still not get beaten often.

Typically, when you have guys like Champ, Nnamdi or Revis, in their prime, they have one or two years with great INT totals before quarterbacks learn to just ignore whatever poor WR the corner is on.

I'm watching these guys play, and I'm seeing more passes being completed against Champ on the other two. Yes, some of it is because Champ's defense blows.

Some of it is because he's 32 years old. He's not the same dynamic guy that he was back in the day. Age happens. But to say that he's better than Revis, that position is assinine. Look last year at the guys Revis faced and blanked. It was a whose who of the top ten WR's. He had what may as well have been the best season for a CB of all time in an era where sneezing on a WR is a pass interference call.

I fully believe that Bailey is going to go down as a better corner than Revis or Nnamdi. He has ten or so stud seasons, Revis and Nnamdi don't.

But you're not watching with objective eyes if you think that he's a top flight corner at this point.

Wow, you must be watching some other Denver Broncos team play because Champ Bailey is on an island as much as any player in the NFL, and has been for years.

You really think Brandon Flowers is as good as Champ Bailey?? Teams THREW at Flowers when the game was on the line, Houston, Oakland, Buffalo, they all did, no respect. Flowers gets burned as much as any CB in the NFL, and he may not even be the best CB on his team because Brandon Carr is probably more consistent.

Reavis? He has the best pass rush and pressure front 7 in the NFL and he still doesn't outplay Champ.

Give it up man, the ONLY CB who is on the same level as Champ is Nmandi, other than that, there is a dropoff. Even at 33 Champ Bailey is an elite CB with several good years ahead of him.

[Poet]

Wow, you must be watching some other Denver Broncos team play because Champ Bailey is on an island as much as any player in the NFL, and has been for years.
No he's not.


You really think Brandon Flowers is as good as Champ Bailey?? Teams THREW at Flowers when the game was on the line, Houston, Oakland, Buffalo, they all did, no respect. Flowers gets burned as much as any CB in the NFL, and he may not even be the best CB on his team because Brandon Carr is probably more consistent.

I guess the best part about this is that he's played as well as Champ this year.


Reavis? He has the best pash...

No, I mean Revis. The guy who two years ago blanked Randy Moss twice, Larry Fitzgerald, Chad Johnson, Santonio Holmes and Reggie Wayne. He gave up on average like 40 yards a game?
Yes, he does have a good defense, but Rex Ryan has even said that he allows his team to do a lot of the crazy schemes because he just elimantes the team's best receiving threat.

So if you actually think that Bailey is better than Revis at THIS point in their career, there's nothing that anyone can say.



Give it up man, the ONLY CB who is on the same level as Champ is Nmandi, other than that, there is a dropoff. Even at 33 Champ Bailey is an elite CB with several good years ahead of him.

:tsk:

[rcsodak]

No he's not.



I guess the best part about this is that he's played as well as Champ this year.



No, I mean Revis. The guy who two years ago blanked Randy Moss twice, Larry Fitzgerald, Chad Johnson, Santonio Holmes and Reggie Wayne. He gave up on average like 40 yards a game?
Yes, he does have a good defense, but Rex Ryan has even said that he allows his team to do a lot of the crazy schemes because he just elimantes the team's best receiving threat.

So if you actually think that Bailey is better than Revis at THIS point in their career, there's nothing that anyone can say.




:tsk:

You should know better, 87. A team's fans can criticize a player and for the most part be allowed the opine. An outsider trying it? 'Gethefugouttahere'. Lol
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[cardoso]

Wow, you must be watching some other Denver Broncos team play because Champ Bailey is on an island as much as any player in the NFL, and has been for years.

You really think Brandon Flowers is as good as Champ Bailey?? Teams THREW at Flowers when the game was on the line, Houston, Oakland, Buffalo, they all did, no respect. Flowers gets burned as much as any CB in the NFL, and he may not even be the best CB on his team because Brandon Carr is probably more consistent.

Reavis? He has the best pass rush and pressure front 7 in the NFL and he still doesn't outplay Champ.

Give it up man, the ONLY CB who is on the same level as Champ is Nmandi, other than that, there is a dropoff. Even at 33 Champ Bailey is an elite CB with several good years ahead of him.

completely agree. Nmandi is the only cb i would be ok with saying he's better than champ AT THIS POINT OF CHAMPS CAREER. This is a perfect example of Revis being on tv alot because of his coach and getting more exposure which in return hypes him up and unless you really know the game, you're going to beleive everything espn says. Put revis on denver's defense and see what he does. Put champ with the jets and see what he does. Even when he's injured he still doesn't get beat. :salute:

2010-11 year champ played like a stud!!! I don't see where people get that he's "getting old". that's actually a compliment because this old guy is still able to shut down wr's like reggie wayne, bowe, moss, etc. etc. etc.

and to show you a huge difference between champ and revis. Champ ALWAYS lines up against the best wr on the field.

The jets always put Cromatie on bigger faster wr's instead Revis :lol:
Revis didn't cover Brandon marshall not one time in the two games the jets played them.

[cardoso]

No, I mean Revis. The guy who two years ago blanked Randy Moss twice, Larry Fitzgerald, Chad Johnson, Santonio Holmes and Reggie Wayne. He gave up on average like 40 yards a game?


hmmm......2 years ago Revis did that? well funy that same year this is what champ did.

vs. ochocinco 1 catch 8yds
vs. M. Austin 3 catches 19yds
vs. Moss 1 catch 36 yds
vs. wayne 4 catches 40 yds. (this year held him to no catches)
vs D. jackson 4 catches 33 yds

you've done nothing but spew a bunch of YOUR OPINIONS on this board and you have provided nothing to show your opinions are true. Numerous people have countered your posts with facts and you come back with opinions.


here's a challenge for you in a day and age where everything is on the internet. Find as much videos of champ baily getting burned and post them on here. I've already posted 3 of revis getting burned for td's just this year ALONE!

[bcbronc]

This year Revis was hampered by a bad wheel.


Champ is still one of the top corners in the game, but he's no longet THE top corner. He's still the #1 on prob 2/3s of the teams, and by far the best we've got.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[Poet]

you should know better, 87. A team's fans can criticize a player and for the most part be allowed the opine. An outsider trying it? 'gethefugouttahere'. Lol
mobile post via mobile.broncosforums.com/forums

:(

;)

[silkamilkamonico]

you don't know about what you're talking about. you're too stuck in thinking you are so correct you can't look at the FACTS! you watch too much ESPN and it shows. and you fail to mention champ did all this in 2010 while playing in one of the worst defenses in nfl history.

Aren't you the same poster than said some guy named Troy Calhoun was our next coach? And you're going on about facts to someone else?

LMAO wow.

[BroncoStud]

You should know better, 87. A team's fans can criticize a player and for the most part be allowed the opine. An outsider trying it? 'Gethefugouttahere'. Lol
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

I think both of you guys should actually try watching a Broncos game before you annoint yourselves more worthy of an opinion than the rest of us. I'm a Broncos fan, not a Champ Bailey fan, if I didn't feel Bailey was one of the best at his position, in the NFL, I wouldn't want him to be a Bronco at that pricetag.

There have been pleny of solid Broncos players that I thought it was time to hang it up, Lynch being one of my favorite and it was time. Champ still has plenty of gas in the tank and performs at an elite level.

It's a very nice luxury to have teams simply avoid Champ Bailey, and with solid defensive coaching, that will pay tremendous dividends. Champ is a victim of his own success and has spoiled the fans. He doesn't get a lot of intercepetions but he's a solid tackler and QB's avoid him a lot of the time.

[Krugan]

This blows...

[rcsodak]

This blows...
Relax.....and let your heart not be troubled
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[rcsodak]

http://maxdenver.com/blog1/2011/02/17/elway-wants-bailey-back-but-will-that-be-enough/
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[cuzz4169]

Do I really have to explain each players attributes? Willis-considered to be best young lb? Heart/soul of team. Who blocked for #1 rb? Who's considered best young wr(w/healthy qb)? Etc....etc......etc.......
For somebody that" loves" cb, you sure are spending a larger amount of time proving otherwise.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Lol foolish

[topscribe]

But he's not actually trumping them. I've watched Champ get beaten more and more. The Jets got a lot of coverage sacks because of Revis. They also got a lot of sacks because that defense is incredible.

But you can't actually tell me that Champ plays on an island more than either of those two guys because I know that is not true.

Cornerback is not a position that you can justify with statistics. There are some bad corners who have a good INT number because they only play on the ball and are willing to get beat. Sometimes you have worldbeaters like Deion Sanders who can do that and still not get beaten often.

Typically, when you have guys like Champ, Nnamdi or Revis, in their prime, they have one or two years with great INT totals before quarterbacks learn to just ignore whatever poor WR the corner is on.

I'm watching these guys play, and I'm seeing more passes being completed against Champ on the other two. Yes, some of it is because Champ's defense blows.

Some of it is because he's 32 years old. He's not the same dynamic guy that he was back in the day. Age happens. But to say that he's better than Revis, that position is assinine. Look last year at the guys Revis faced and blanked. It was a whose who of the top ten WR's. He had what may as well have been the best season for a CB of all time in an era where sneezing on a WR is a pass interference call.

I fully believe that Bailey is going to go down as a better corner than Revis or Nnamdi. He has ten or so stud seasons, Revis and Nnamdi don't.

But you're not watching with objective eyes if you think that he's a top flight corner at this point.

Sorry, but it is your analysis that is in error. I know some are automatically
assuming Champ is past his prime because of his age. But age happens to
different people at different times.

A lack of pass rush does make a cornerback's job dramatically different. That
is Football 101. And both Nnamdi and Revis had significantly better pass
rushes to play behind than Champ.

Another thing I've omitted until now: The other two had better rushing
defenses to play behind. Champ had little running support from the last place
defense in the league. That meant he had to more closely keep an eye on the
run than usual. Yet he still shut down Pro Bowl receivers while doing that.

I don't know how you were able to see Champ "get beaten more and more."
First, check out the passes completed against him, game by game, in the last
two years. The number is staggeringly low. Next, check the TD passes
completed against him: one (1) in the last two years.

Moreover, aren't you a Bengals fan? So you watched the Broncos instead of
the Bengals? I saw every game this year . . . e-v-e-r-y game. Sorry, but I
did not see that "more and more" that you did.

I stand by what I said, and without qualification: Champ is still the best CB in
the league.

-----

[cuzz4169]

Sorry, but it is your analysis that is in error. I know some are automatically
assuming Champ is past his prime because of his age. But age happens to
different people at different times.

A lack of pass rush does make a cornerback's job dramatically different. That
is Football 101. And both Nnamdi and Revis had significantly better pass
rushes to play behind than Champ.

Another thing I've omitted until now: The other two had better rushing
defenses to play behind. Champ had little running support from the last place
defense in the league. That meant he had to more closely keep an eye on the
run than usual. Yet he still shut down Pro Bowl receivers while doing that.

I don't know how you were able to see Champ "get beaten more and more."
First, check out the passes completed against him, game by game, in the last
two years. The number is staggeringly low. Next, check the TD passes
completed against him: one (1) in the last two years.

Moreover, aren't you a Bengals fan? So you watched the Broncos instead of
the Bengals? I saw every game this year . . . e-v-e-r-y game. Sorry, but I
did not see that "more and more" that you did.

I stand by what I said, and without qualification: Champ is still the best CB in
the league.

-----

You don't find it strange that denver fans are the only people in the complete nfl circle...fans, coaches, players who think champ is the best CB?

Champ gave up a TD to Bowe, Edwards & the kid from seattle this yr.

[topscribe]

You don't find it strange that denver fans are the only people in the complete nfl circle...fans, coaches, players who think champ is the best CB?

Champ gave up a TD to Bowe, Edwards & the kid from seattle this yr.

That's funny . . . he gave up one TD pass. How do you squeeze three into one?
Are you looking through your own eyes? To untrained eyes, things can appear
what they are not: for instance, in one play, it appeared Champ got beat
because he was the closest to the completion . . . yet thorough analysis
showed that was not in his area of responsibility, and he was coming over from
his own area to try to stop it.

Regarding those outside Denver, who has watched every single game in which
Champ has played? Jets fans? Bengals fans? Broncos fans? Which one? So,
no, I don't find it strange. I dont' give a rat's ass about the what fans think,
anyway. They worship heroes, not analyze performance. And players don't
watch anybody in particular. They play against them, and the only players
they see are those directly opposing them. In other words, the linebackers,
offensive linemen, and running backs don't generally have much of an idea as
to how any CB played, even in a game they just played. The aren't much
more reliable than fans in that regard.

Regarding coaches, which ones around the league have you heard commenting
on Champ? I am interested to know. I do know who chose Champ as the
alternate: coaches did.

-----

[cuzz4169]

That's funny . . . he gave up one TD pass. How do you squeeze three into one?
Are you looking through your own eyes? To untrained eyes, things can appear
what they are not: for instance, in one play, it appeared Champ got beat
because he was the closest to the completion . . . yet thorough analysis
showed that was not in his area of responsibility, and he was coming over from
his own area to try to stop it.

Regarding those outside Denver, who has watched every single game in which
Champ has played? Jets fans? Bengals fans? Broncos fans? Which one? So,
no, I don't find it strange. I dont' give a rat's ass about the what fans think,
anyway. They worship heroes, not analyze performance. And players don't
watch anybody in particular. They play against them, and the only players
they see are those directly opposing them. In other words, the linebackers,
offensive linemen, and running backs don't generally have much of an idea as
to how any CB played, even in a game they just played. The aren't much
more reliable than fans in that regard.

Regarding coaches, which ones around the league have you heard commenting
on Champ? I am interested to know. I do know who chose Champ as the
alternate: coaches did.

-----

I know what coverage is what I'm prolly only guy on here who has been payed to play and I played defense. Now I've coached for 7 yrs.

So what's the one TD? He was beat by Edwards. Not sure how many bowe had on him I know 1 for sure. The kid from seattle caught a slant on champ for a TD.

[topscribe]

I know what coverage is what I'm prolly only guy on here who has been payed to play and I played defense. Now I've coached for 7 yrs.

So what's the one TD? He was beat by Edwards. Not sure how many bowe had on him I know 1 for sure. The kid from seattle caught a slant on champ for a TD.

You are distracting the entire point I have made. It is common knowledge
Champ gave up one TD this year. I didn't grab that out of blue sky. I'm just
parroting what has come across to me.

And I don't care if you're Vince Lombardi. I played QB on the college level. I
played DE and TE when it became apparent I wasn't a good QB. I have
played and watched football for some 55 years. I didn't fall off the turnip
truck yesterday.

I watched Champ all season with amazement at how he blanketed receivers.
He had the one bad game against Bowe, then came back in the second game
and said, "Not this time." Bowe did not have one single reception.

The fact remains the same, which you ought to be able to recognize, Coach.
Champ played behind a deficient pass rush and a pathetic rushing defense.
Yet he still shut down Pro Bowl receivers. It's simple as that. All the rest of
this irrelevant garbage is just that: irrelevant.

-----

[cuzz4169]

You are distracting the entire point I have made. It is common knowledge
Champ gave up one TD this year. I didn't grab that out of blue sky. So don't all
the sudden take that up with me.

And I don't care if you're Vince Lombardi. I played QB on the college level. I
played DE and TE when it became apparent I wasn't a good QB. I have
played and watched football for some 55 years. I didn't fall off the turnip
truck yesterday.

I watched Champ all season with amazement at how he blanketed receivers.
He had the one bad game against Bowe, then came back in the second game
and said, "Not this time." Bowe did not have one single reception.

The fact remains the same, which you ought to be able to recognize, Coach.
Champ played behind a deficient pass rush and a pathetic rushing defense.
Yet he still shut down Pro Bowl receivers. It's simple as that. All the rest of
this irrelevant garbage is just that: irrelevant.

-----

I didn't question your football knowledge, you questioned mine...and damn 55yrs...they had college that long ago? :D

You still didn't answer my question who he give the TD up to? I named 3 guys who he was covering 1 on 1 no zone no coming of another guy 1 on 1. Watch the highlights of those 3 games. Last year off my head I know he gave one up to ward and was abused by holmes in the same game.

I take that back Ward wasn't his guy Ward jumped over him for the TD. But Holmes beat him a couple times deep for sure.

[topscribe]

I didn't question your football knowledge, you questioned mine...and damn 55yrs...they had college that long ago? :D

You still didn't answer my question who he give the TD up to? I named 3 guys who he was covering 1 on 1 no zone no coming of another guy 1 on 1. Watch the highlights of those 3 games. Last year off my head I know he gave one up to holmes and ward in the same game.

And you didn't bother to acknowledge what I just said. I did not dream that up.
I am repeating common knowledge. Did I just not say that?

You are also inviting me to watch highlights, when I said I watched Champ alllllll
season. I said I watched Champ. On purpose. I don't have to watch isolated
highlights where the best occasionally beats the best. I watched Revis get
beaten like an unwanted stepchild one game, too, and listened to the color
man comment on that. It happens.

So I saw Champ get beaten. I saw Revis get beaten. I saw Nnamdi get beaten.
Woodson? I am a Packers fan (second to the Broncos, of course), and I was
tempted to call him "Toast" last season, for as often as he was burned.

Champ is the best, IMO. I stand by that, fans and players around the league,
who did not see Champ all season long, notwithstanding. Because of what he
did, as opposed to what little he had to work with.

-----

[topscribe]

I gave my opinion. It's just my opinion. So we'll just have to disagree and go on
from there. I'm comfortable with that . . .

-----

[BigSarge87]

I watched Revis get
beaten like an unwanted stepchild one game, too, and listened to the color
man comment on that. It happens.



Top, I was an unwanted stepchild. And I have red hair, so please be sensitive to my feelings, those were hard years.:whip:

[cuzz4169]

And you didn't bother to acknowledge what I just said. I did not dream that up.
I am repeating common knowledge. Did I just not say that?

You are also inviting me to watch highlights, when I said I watched Champ alllllll
season. I said I watched Champ. On purpose. I don't have to watch isolated
highlights where the best occasionally beats the best. I watched Revis get
beaten like an unwanted stepchild one game, too, and listened to the color
man comment on that. It happens.

So I saw Champ get beaten. I saw Revis get beaten. I saw Nnamdi get beaten.
Woodson? I am a Packers fan (second to the Broncos, of course), and I was
tempted to call him "Toast" last season, for as often as he was burned.

Champ is the best, IMO. I stand by that, fans and players around the league,
who did not see Champ all season long, notwithstanding. Because of what he
did, as opposed to what little he had to work with.

-----

I know all CB's get beat. Yes revis got beat this yr BUT when he had a bad hammy. I still think Nmandi and Revis are better at this point in there respected careers. Champ is still elite and one of the best athletes to ever play football. For sure he has 1 or 2 more elite seasons. Champ is a smothering cb closest thing to Deion we have seen.

Now where is it common knowledge that champ only gave up 1 td? On film again ill say it 1 on 1 he got beat 3 times for TDs this year. Against KC against Seattle Against Jets.

[topscribe]

Top, I was an unwanted stepchild. And I have red hair, so please be sensitive to my feelings, those were hard years.:whip:

Is there someplace I can catch up with you?

I feel like beating somebody up . . .

-----

[topscribe]

I know all CB's get beat. Yes revis got beat this yr BUT when he had a bad hammy. I still think Nmandi and Revis are better at this point in there respected careers. Champ is still elite and one of the best athletes to ever play football. For sure he has 1 or 2 more elite seasons. Champ is a smothering cb closest thing to Deion we have seen.

Now where is it common knowledge that champ only gave up 1 td? On film again ill say it 1 on 1 he got beat 3 times for TDs this year. Against KC against Seattle Against Jets.

That might very well be. I never witnessed that, and I saw all three games. One
of those games, however, may have been the incident I described for you,
where Champ was trying to prevent a play that took place out of his position.
But I don't know -- you are the first to challenge that, and you may be right.
I would have to go back and review before I took up an argument with you
over that. You have me doubting some, now.

But, IMO, Champ is still at the level of Revis and Nnamdi, if not better, from
the factors I cited.

-----

[cuzz4169]

great video for the moment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjnJMrs7Xag

[cuzz4169]

That might very well be. I never witnessed that, and I saw all three games. One
of those games, however, may have been the incident I described for you,
where Champ was trying to prevent a play that took place out of his position.
But I don't know -- you are the first to challenge that, and you may be right.
I would have to go back and review before I took up an argument with you
over that. You have me doubting some, now.

But, IMO, Champ is still at the level of Revis and Nnamdi, if not better, from
the factors I cited.

-----

I'm not debating how good champ is I think he's the best all around corner ever! Second best cover guy ever. Last year is when Revis & Nnamdi past champ in my opinion. Champ is a special player no doubt about it. I wanna retype my statement I made yesterday. If we can retain champ for 4 yrs at 40mil I'm all for it!!

I'm just debating the TDs given up by him this yr.

At 1:23
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAMwxwd5I-U

At 28 sec.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XsCvj_UIrY

http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d81aad471/QB-Hasselbeck-to-WR-Obomanu-11-yd-pass-TD announcer says Renaldo hill covering but he's wrong its champ

I helped ya out...Like I said i'm just debating guys saying he only gave up 1 TD

[topscribe]

At 1:23
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAMwxwd5I-U

That was zone. But I often wondered, such as here, why they played so far
off the receiver in such tight corners. That coverage was called, as you can
see from what the other corners were doing, which was symmetrical to
Champ. So that was not a one-on-one failure on Champ, as I saw it.



At 28 sec.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XsCvj_UIrY

That was a very strange play. It looked as if it was a zone defense with the
#1 and #2 corners playing man. It took several passes for me to see where
Champ was coming from, and it finally looked as if that TD was indeed on him.



http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d81aad471/QB-Hasselbeck-to-WR-Obomanu-11-yd-pass-TD announcer says Renaldo hill covering but he's wrong its champ

I helped ya out...Like I said i'm just debating guys saying he only gave up 1 TD

I think both the announcer and you were right to a degree. That was Champ's
man, but I don't know what in the world Hill was doing five yards deep in the
end zone. That seemed a "help over the top" situation, where the safety blew
it. But you're right: That technically has to be on Champ, although I don't
know how any CB in the league would have prevented that with the same
lack of safety support. Nonetheless, it's like a QB throwing an INT because of
the receiver whiffing the reception or blowing a route: It is still an INT on the
QB. In the same spirit, that TD has to be on Champ.

So my response is that you are correct in two out of three instances. Which
means Champ gave up two TDs.

-----

[cuzz4169]

That was zone. But I often wondered, such as here, why they played so far
off the receiver in such tight corners. That coverage was called, as you can
see from what the other corners were doing, which was symmetrical to
Champ. So that was not a one-on-one failure on Champ, as I saw it.




That was a very strange play. It looked as if it was a zone defense with the
#1 and #2 corners playing man. It took several passes for me to see where
Champ was coming from, and it finally looked as if that TD was indeed on him.




I think both the announcer and you were right to a degree. That was Champ's
man, but I don't know what in the world Hill was doing five yards deep in the
end zone. That seemed a "help over the top" situation, where the safety blew
it. But you're right: That technically has to be on Champ, although I don't
know how any CB in the league would have prevented that with the same
lack of safety support. Nonetheless, it's like a QB throwing an INT because of
the receiver whiffing the reception or blowing a route: It is still an INT on the
QB. In the same spirit, that TD has to be on Champ.

So my response is that you are correct in two out of three instances. Which
means Champ gave up two TDs.

-----

Bc its zone doesn't mean you can't get beat. Im not home so I really can't look at them closely but I don't think any of them are zone. Be easier if I could c the complete field.

[topscribe]

Bc its zone doesn't mean you can't get beat. Im not home so I really can't look at them closely but I don't think any of them are zone. Be easier if I could c the complete field.

I was looking at the symmetrical movements of the backfield. They were
each covering an area on that one play. A completion against the zone cannot
necessarily be the responsibility of a single player. In the case of that play,
the pass hit the receiver in the seam.

-----

[rcsodak]

Lol foolishtry harder. Like "we'll agree to disagree" or better yet, "ya got me there!" instead of belittling. This isn't a contest to see who can 1up the other the most. That's a different forum altogether.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[rcsodak]

I gave my opinion. It's just my opinion. So we'll just have to disagree and go on
from there. I'm comfortable with that . . .

-----
Top, its hard to lay blame on cb for the 1st kc game.
1. Blowout win!
2. They schemed to stop the run.
3. Up until that game, cassel hadn't broke 300yds (iirc) so who were they concerned with?
4. It was obvious to even us non coaches that cb was playing how the coaches wanted him to play in that game.....SOFT! He was pissed his hands were tied. Also pretty obvious he heard the catcalls and had something to prove in game 2.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[vandammage13]

Top, its hard to lay blame on cb for the 1st kc game.
1. Blowout win!
2. They schemed to stop the run.
3. Up until that game, cassel hadn't broke 300yds (iirc) so who were they concerned with?
4. It was obvious to even us non coaches that cb was playing how the coaches wanted him to play in that game.....SOFT! He was pissed his hands were tied. Also pretty obvious he heard the catcalls and had something to prove in game 2.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

You can thank Don "Wink" Martindale for that (boy did he blow his chance at being a DC)...or McD for running off Mike Nolan.

[topscribe]

Top, its hard to lay blame on cb for the 1st kc game.
1. Blowout win!
2. They schemed to stop the run.
3. Up until that game, cassel hadn't broke 300yds (iirc) so who were they concerned with?
4. It was obvious to even us non coaches that cb was playing how the coaches wanted him to play in that game.....SOFT! He was pissed his hands were tied. Also pretty obvious he heard the catcalls and had something to prove in game 2.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

No, RC, there is no way of getting around it: Champ was beaten repeatedly in
the first KC game. I understand the scheme stunk, but Champ's problems were
Champ's.

In the second, however, he won repeatedly, and not one pass was completed
on him. The difference, then, must have been between the ears . . .

-----

[rcsodak]

No, RC, there is no way of getting around it: Champ was beaten repeatedly in
the first KC game. I understand the scheme stunk, but Champ's problems were
Champ's.

In the second, however, he won repeatedly, and not one pass was completed
on him. The difference, then, must have been between the ears . . .

-----

Well guess we'll disagree then top, cuz coverage between game 1 /2 were not the same. Nor were the results vs kc's running game. It was either/or, last year....never both.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[BroncoStud]

I haven't seen a drop in Champ's play on a physical level. He goes out every week and does a good job. He's the best player on this defense. He should get paid on par with the better CB's in the NFL. Hopefully we come to our senses and sign him to a 4 year deal with him knowing full well he will be asked to move to Safety to help out the Broncos - which I doubt he will have issue doing.

There are as many holes in the secondary as there are in the front 7 for this defense. I think Denver would be wiser to draft Peterson at Safety now, re-sign Bailey, and fill out the front 7 later in the draft and through free agency. Peterson is going to be a stud.

[topscribe]

Well guess we'll disagree then top, cuz coverage between game 1 /2 were not the same. Nor were the results vs kc's running game. It was either/or, last year....never both.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

I understand. It is true that a bad scheme can make it more difficult for a CB.
Just as I noted in an earlier post in this thread, where Champ appeared to get
beaten for a TD, I don't know why the corners would play ten yards off the LOS.
And even though passes are completed underneath, they still play ten yards off.

-----

[BroncoStud]

I understand. It is true that a bad scheme can make it more difficult for a CB.
Just as I noted in an earlier post in this thread, where Champ appeared to get
beaten for a TD, I don't know why the corners would play ten yards off the LOS.
And even though passes are completed underneath, they still play ten yards off.

-----

It was pretty evident Wink had them off the ball, and I suppose there was good reason though it allowed KC to mount some offense and probably got Cassel in the Pro Bowl.

[Elevation inc]

Hard to name your top 5 on here bc everyone loves champ...and is a homer...but ill give ya a list in my opinion.

Darrelle Revis
Nnamdi Asomugha
Charles Woodson
Cortland Finnegan
Asante Samuel

These are 5 i think are better...now you can argue about 10 more.

lol you just included cortland finnegan in your list thats hilarious and beyond stupid......asante samuel has injury history up the ying yang.....

[BroncoStud]

Anyone who says that Cortland Finnegan (who gets burnt more than toast) is a better CB than Champ Bailey has relinquished all right to carry on a logical discussion and clearly watches NO football.

WoW, just WoW... :elefant: :eek:

[cuzz4169]

My list is a typo lol....I think revis & Nnamdi are better....Everyone else it depends on what your looking for in a player. So its all up to debate after the first 2.

Everyone can say what you want about Finnegan but he's a very good CB...and again all CB's get beat. you see highlights of him getting beat but what about all the times he locks someone down throughout the game.

Woodson and Samuel aren't better cover corners but they are 2 players who take chances and make big plays. Like I said its all what type of player your looking for.

Its like any other position who's the best WR? Shit you can name like 5 guys...but you would take anyone of them. I bet they are all different types of players to.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

"Maybe this will help," Bailey said Sunday by text after the rally that was organized through Facebook. "Maybe we can get something done."

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_17440065

[bcbronc]

I do hope the fans rally helps the FO decide whether they should re-sign Champ. I really appreciate how the fans' input is being considered on making on and off field decisions: who to re-sign, when to fire a coach, who should be the starting QB, etc.

all the best franchises traditionally let the whims of the crowd make all the important decisions!

:mad:

[Denver Native (Carol)]

For fans, it’s hard to feel optimistic about the situation, but Broncos Pro Bowl receiver Brandon Lloyd suggested Tuesday via his Twitter account that not all hope is lost.

“It’s looking good for champ. Fingers are crossed.”

About two hours later, Lloyd elaborated more on his earlier post with another tweet.

“I heard some encouraging things this morning. Financial details are none of my biz but “real” positive thoughts on champs return excited me!”

http://predominantlyorange.com/2011/02/22/broncos-lloyd-encouraged-that-champ-will-stay/

[rcsodak]

Screw this "I think" crap from people not in the know.

Carol, I DEMAND you get a hold of JE and find out what's what!


:couch:
*if that works for you*
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums