PFW:Broncos unlikely to bring Orton back

[TXBRONC]

I don't think this is exactly how most Broncos fan feel but ok.





Broncos unlikely to bring Orton back.
Posted Feb. 07, 2011 @ 11:47 a.m. ET
By PFW staff

• Broncos executive vice president of football operations John Elway recently said it's not a sure thing that QB Kyle Orton will be traded, but a PFW insider said it would be very tough to bring the veteran back. While QB Tim Tebow may not give the team the best chance to win, he does have the backing of the fans in Denver. Elway has talked about reconnecting with the fans and could lose some credibility by sticking with Orton. A daily team observer said he gets the feeling that fans would rather win three or four games with Tebow than six or seven with Orton.

http://www.profootballweekly.com/2011/02/07/broncos-unlikely-to-bring-orton-back

[BroncoStud]

Uh-oh :elefant:

[Day1BroncoFan]

See ya later Kyle, it's been fun.

T-time. :D

[Juriga72]

Lonestar is crying all over his "Iggy" list right now.....

[Dzone]

Lets keep our fingers crossed that the Jack Daniels chugging Orton is soon gone for good.

The only guy with a worse sideline demeanor is Cutler.

[Juriga72]

Lets keep our fingers crossed that the Jack Daniels chugging Orton is soon gone for good.

The only guy with a worse sideline demeanor is Cutler.

I know.... that smirk Cutler wears when they are winning just kills me.....

[jhildebrand]

"The fans would rather win 3 or 4 games with Tebow than 6 or 7 with Orton."

WTF?!?! Orton only won 3 games this year anyway. Regardless of who starts next year I don't see the wins piling up! I just know I would rather have a guy with grit and determination than a quitter like Orton.

[silkamilkamonico]

Why would we trade away a superbowl starting QB for us if we were in the superbowl this year?

[UnderArmour]

"The fans would rather win 3 or 4 games with Tebow than 6 or 7 with Orton."

WTF?!?! Orton only won 3 games this year anyway. Regardless of who starts next year I don't see the wins piling up! I just know I would rather have a guy with grit and determination than a quitter like Orton.

How can you even say Orton is a quitter? If you're going to criticize the guy, do not tell flat out lies. Orton NEVER quit.

[shank]

Why would we trade away a superbowl starting QB for us if we were in the superbowl this year?

wate, wut?

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Mike Klis was on the ticket this morning, and in regards to the QB situation, he stated that he feels what happens to Orton depends strictly on the CBA - i.e., if it gets done quick - which would allow for training camp, Orton would be traded. If the CBA gets resolved down the line, very little time for training camp, Orton stays.

When thinking about this, I thought - OK - so if the CBA is resolved later, rather than earlier, would Orton, as well as Tebow, still not have to learn a new system, unless Fox basically goes with the same offensive scheme as last year. The only other thing I could think of was if there is no training camp, no off season workouts, the coaches would not be able to work with Tebow to try to work out some what needs to be done to make him a pro QB.

[BroncoStud]

How can you even say Orton is a quitter? If you're going to criticize the guy, do not tell flat out lies. Orton NEVER quit.

Apparently you missed a few games this year...

[Juriga72]

Apparently you missed a few games this year...

Like everyone.... But hey... "Kyle threw for 300 yards!!!!"

[vandammage13]

Sorry, but I just don't see the Broncos winning any more games with Orton starting than they would with Tebow...If anything, I really think it would be less wins with Orton.

Just my opinion.

[BroncoStud]

Sorry, but I just don't see the Broncos winning any more games with Orton starting than they would with Tebow...If anything, I really think it would be less wins with Orton.

Just my opinion.

Yeah that whole "Kyle gives us the best chance to win" argument seems pretty silly and ignorant at this point, Tebow outplayed him. Sad state of affairs when we even have to worry about this...

[vandammage13]

Yeah that whole "Kyle gives us the best chance to win" argument seems pretty silly and ignorant at this point, Tebow outplayed him. Sad state of affairs when we even have to worry about this...

Exactly...it seems like we kept hearing that quote regurgitated over an over every game after the SF game by the coaching staff, and subsequently various members on this board.

Of course, that quote quickly lost its creedence as we continued to lose (getting blown out im many cases), and Orton seemed to be highly regressing as the season wore on.

[BroncoStud]

Exactly...it seems like we kept hearing that quote regurgitated over an over every game after the SF game by the coaching staff, and subsequently various members on this board.

Of course, that quote quickly lost its creedence as we continued to lose (getting blown out im many cases), and Orton seemed to be highly regressing as the season wore on.

But, but... He was hurt! His arm was sore (despite throwing 70 yard lasers in practice, according to himself)... But, but, we had no running game (though he performed much worse in games when we rushed well)... But, but, the defense sucked!
(Despite the fact Jay Cutler won 8 games with about the same defensive production 2 years prior)...

[GEM]

But, but... He was hurt! His arm was sore (despite throwing 70 yard lasers in practice, according to himself)... But, but, we had no running game (though he performed much worse in games when we rushed well)... But, but, the defense sucked!
(Despite the fact Jay Cutler won 8 games with about the same defensive production 2 years prior)...

Funny how the running game got better with Tebow leading...

[Dirk]

Orton's no quitter. He doesn't have that inner fire when the game in on the line though. Which Tebow does. I definately wouldn't call him a quitter. He falls flat under pressure. There is a difference.

[Slick]

Wow, PFT really went out on a limb.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

The worst part of all of this is without a CBA, this perceived QB controversy could linger all the way into next season. I was hoping we could deal Orton early and move on, but it seems that the FO is somewhat handcuffed by the lack of CBA along with the fact that I honestly don't think they have even made a decision about who they really want to be their QB next year.

The majority of the fans apparently want Tebow. Elway is brand new and Fox is a more old-school, conservative HC. They may decide to stick with Orton as a "safe pick". Personally, I think that's a mistake, but I'm just a fan. As it stands, Orton is under contract for one more year, and no matter who starts at QB this year, the likely hood that the Broncos are playoff bound is slim so it really doesn't matter other than to appease the fans who want Tebow.

Honestly, I don't think Orton is worth anywhere near what the media thinks he is. Remember, Jake Plummer only garnered a 6th round pick one year removed from the AFCCG. I was never a big Plummer fan, but I'd rather have him than Orton any day of the week and he was, IMO, a better QB.

I can really see this turning out as the Broncos not getting a 2nd or whatever and Orton staying on for one more year with about the same results (just with fewer numbers because Fox won't be having Orton throw the ball 50 times a game so he won't have near the passing stats). About 1/2 way through the season when we're sitting at 2-6, Tebow will probably replace Orton to try to stimulate a disgruntled fanbase and get the fans back at home games.

Orton will then leave via FA (for which we'll get nothing) and be signed on elsewhere as a backup where he'll spend the rest of his career bouncing around as the journeyman backup for a few years on several teams.

[BroncoStud]

The worst part of all of this is without a CBA, this perceived QB controversy could linger all the way into next season. I was hoping we could deal Orton early and move on, but it seems that the FO is somewhat handcuffed by the lack of CBA along with the fact that I honestly don't think they have even made a decision about who they really want to be their QB next year.

The majority of the fans apparently want Tebow. Elway is brand new and Fox is a more old-school, conservative HC. They may decide to stick with Orton as a "safe pick". Personally, I think that's a mistake, but I'm just a fan. As it stands, Orton is under contract for one more year, and no matter who starts at QB this year, the likely hood that the Broncos are playoff bound is slim so it really doesn't matter other than to appease the fans who want Tebow.

Honestly, I don't think Orton is worth anywhere near what the media thinks he is. Remember, Jake Plummer only garnered a 6th round pick one year removed from the AFCCG. I was never a big Plummer fan, but I'd rather have him than Orton any day of the week and he was, IMO, a better QB.

I can really see this turning out as the Broncos not getting a 2nd or whatever and Orton staying on for one more year with about the same results (just with fewer numbers because Fox won't be having Orton throw the ball 50 times a game so he won't have near the passing stats). About 1/2 way through the season when we're sitting at 2-6, Tebow will probably replace Orton to try to stimulate a disgruntled fanbase and get the fans back at home games.

Orton will then leave via FA (for which we'll get nothing) and be signed on elsewhere as a backup where he'll spend the rest of his career bouncing around as the journeyman backup for a few years on several teams.

Good point about Plummer, he was twice the QB Orton is and he only got us a 6th rounder... If we get a 4th for Orton chalk it up to a major victory.

[Dzone]

oops, wrong thread, I was commenting on sb commercials..Orton sucks. Lets trade him for Haynesworth

[Slick]

Well said HP.

The lack of a CBA is going to hurt the Broncos more than most other teams. We have a lot of work to do.

It doesn't make much sense to me for the Broncos to hold on to Orton only to let him walk for nothing a year later, even if it is only a 6th rounder in return, however, we may not have much of a choice if these clowns don't get something worked out.

[T.K.O.]

uhhh.....where's the option that the fans would prefer 10 or more wins ?:confused:

[nevcraw]

Not a big deal..

If they are able to trade him for a resonable return then CBA will have already been worked out.. If not the 2 batlle it out for opening game.. Orton will not be able to hold Tebow off for too long if at all..

[Traveler]

If the way the players, both offense & defense, reacted to Tebow during his three game stint is any indication, Orton is toast.

[Juriga72]

With Fox's MO of offense to suck badly passing, and be decent running the ball....

WHAT if anything will we get out of a Kyle Orton who throws maybe 20 passes a game?
I can hear the downward spiraling siren as Kyle goes 12/20 170 -1td 1int for about 3-4 weeks to be supplanted by Tebow and HIS average stats via John (2 out of 3 things with a pass can go bad) Fox high powered offense

[Slick]

With Fox's MO of offense to suck badly passing, and be decent running the ball....

WHAT if anything will we get out of a Kyle Orton who throws maybe 20 passes a game?
I can hear the downward spiraling siren as Kyle goes 12/20 170 -1td 1int for about 3-4 weeks to be supplanted by Tebow and HIS average stats via John (2 out of 3 things with a pass can go bad) Fox high powered offense

Atta boy

Hell of an attitude.

Thank you for your contribution.

[Juriga72]

Atta boy

Hell of an attitude.

Thank you for your contribution.

Atta boy!!! back at you for not even being able to understand just how bad John Fox's offense is..... Ok lets got to the tape

year rushing passing
2010 13th 32nd
2009 3rd 27th
2008 3rd 19th
2007 14th 29th
2006 24th 15th
2005 19th 17th
2004 28th 9th
2003 7th 18th

WOW!!!! can't wiat for him to "Unleash the BEAST!!!!!".... Mr 3 and out here we come...

[Traveler]

With Fox's MO of offense to suck badly passing, and be decent running the ball....

WHAT if anything will we get out of a Kyle Orton who throws maybe 20 passes a game?
I can hear the downward spiraling siren as Kyle goes 12/20 170 -1td 1int for about 3-4 weeks to be supplanted by Tebow and HIS average stats via John (2 out of 3 things with a pass can go bad) Fox high powered offense


Asked Wednesday if Fox, a coach with an extended pedigree on defense, had to sell him on his plan for the Broncos' offense during the interview process Elway said: "Yeah, we talked about it quite a bit. It really doesn't come down to the system, but rather the attitude on offense. That's what we're talking about, the aggressive type offense, what we want to do on offense to win football games, not to just sit back and try to win them on defense.

"We've had many discussions on that. As long as we get it done and stay aggressive, I think we're on the same page there."

Read more: Elway says Orton not out of Broncos' QB starting picture - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_17276932#ixzz1Cve4zvhM
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse

Doesn't sound like Elway is gonna let our offense be the second coming of Dan Reeves. Last I read, they're keeping the spread offense, but plan to empahsize the running game more than McDaniels did.

[SpringsBroncoFan]

I do agree that CBA will determine what happens with Orton. If it's done before camp then he's gone. If not then it could be considered a bit reckless to dump him w/o TT having the benefit of camp. Hopefully it's done before the draft as I believe Orton is definately worth at least a 4th in this draft.

I think you guys are underestimating Orton's worth - especially comparing him to Plummer.

1st - he's 4 years younger than Plummer who was coming off a bad year. I'd also have to question whether teams suspected that Plummer might retire anyway.

2nd - 2007 was a year that not many teams needed QB's and it was a lousy year for QB prospects.

This year is very different than '07 and hopefully we will benefit from that.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Atta boy!!! back at you for not even being able to understand just how bad John Fox's offense is..... Ok lets got to the tape

year rushing passing
2010 13th 32nd
2009 3rd 27th
2008 3rd 19th
2007 14th 29th
2006 24th 15th
2005 19th 17th
2004 28th 9th
2003 7th 18th

WOW!!!! can't wiat for him to "Unleash the BEAST!!!!!".... Mr 3 and out here we come...

Honestly though, J... who gives a shit about yardage? That's all those numbers represent. Not Wins/Losses (the most important stat), not even Points for/against (the second most important stat).

All I give a damn about is winning games. I could care less if we end up 32nd in passing every year as long as we are winning games, competing for the division title, and regulars in the playoffs again.

I'm looking forward to getting back to "Broncos football"... Run the ball, utilize play action, play good defense. I'd rather us have a dominant running game over a razzle-dazzle high flying passing game any day. For the first time in over a decade, we tried to win with the pass and ignore the run for the last two years... we went 12-20. Guys like McDaniels can take their pass-first mentality and shove it up their ass.

[Juriga72]

Honestly though, J... who gives a shit about yardage? That's all those numbers represent. Not Wins/Losses (the most important stat), not even Points for/against (the second most important stat).

All I give a damn about is winning games. I could care less if we end up 32nd in passing every year as long as we are winning games, competing for the division title, and regulars in the playoffs again.

I'm looking forward to getting back to "Broncos football"... Run the ball, utilize play action, play good defense. I'd rather us have a dominant running game over a razzle-dazzle high flying passing game any day. For the first time in over a decade, we tried to win with the pass and ignore the run for the last two years... we went 12-20. Guys like McDaniels can take their pass-first mentality and shove it up their ass.

WHICH is why I questioned the hiring of the only NFL coach with a worse two year record than McDaniels.....

I have serious reservations about Fox and his ability to coach.
3 winning season in 9 years at Carolina does not speak well of his ability.

[lgenf]

The worst part of all of this is without a CBA, this perceived QB controversy could linger all the way into next season. I was hoping we could deal Orton early and move on, but it seems that the FO is somewhat handcuffed by the lack of CBA along with the fact that I honestly don't think they have even made a decision about who they really want to be their QB next year.

The majority of the fans apparently want Tebow. Elway is brand new and Fox is a more old-school, conservative HC. They may decide to stick with Orton as a "safe pick". Personally, I think that's a mistake, but I'm just a fan. As it stands, Orton is under contract for one more year, and no matter who starts at QB this year, the likely hood that the Broncos are playoff bound is slim so it really doesn't matter other than to appease the fans who want Tebow.

Honestly, I don't think Orton is worth anywhere near what the media thinks he is. Remember, Jake Plummer only garnered a 6th round pick one year removed from the AFCCG. I was never a big Plummer fan, but I'd rather have him than Orton any day of the week and he was, IMO, a better QB.

I can really see this turning out as the Broncos not getting a 2nd or whatever and Orton staying on for one more year with about the same results (just with fewer numbers because Fox won't be having Orton throw the ball 50 times a game so he won't have near the passing stats). About 1/2 way through the season when we're sitting at 2-6, Tebow will probably replace Orton to try to stimulate a disgruntled fanbase and get the fans back at home games.

Orton will then leave via FA (for which we'll get nothing) and be signed on elsewhere as a backup where he'll spend the rest of his career bouncing around as the journeyman backup for a few years on several teams.

there's a pretty big problem though if we keep orton (for whatever reason) being an FA next year we get nothing for him

with one year left he is actually attractive trade bait, other teams in need of a QB (fill in your blank team name here that he could really go to _______) that is one attractive contract he is under now, so we made be able to do a sign and trade deal with Orton, thus allowing the new team that he will play for to negotiate the terms of the deal and cementing the deal.


not exactly sure how keeping him for the year and letting him go to FA helps anything, except keeping him at QB and letting TT develop further in a new system, but the article states, that may work against the team/coach/front office, as the fans will be more understanding of a developmental season instead of (this was the best we had with him, and we sat TT why exactly?) which is what I believe many are saying after this year

and trust me I am not saying that TT at QB would have gotten the team to the playoffs, but I have to believe a year of TT at QB may have yielded a better record, better that is all.

[Bullgator]

=))))))))))))))))))))))))))

If this turns out to be true, then I can finally start worrying about the rest of the team.

[arapaho2]

I do agree that CBA will determine what happens with Orton. If it's done before camp then he's gone. If not then it could be considered a bit reckless to dump him w/o TT having the benefit of camp. Hopefully it's done before the draft as I believe Orton is definately worth at least a 4th in this draft.

I think you guys are underestimating Orton's worth - especially comparing him to Plummer.

1st - he's 4 years younger than Plummer who was coming off a bad year. I'd also have to question whether teams suspected that Plummer might retire anyway.

2nd - 2007 was a year that not many teams needed QB's and it was a lousy year for QB prospects.

This year is very different than '07 and hopefully we will benefit from that.


if the team suspected plummer was gonna retire they would not have extended him in 06 just to trade him in 07 ofseason

as for no valuE FOR QBS....the browns, lions, texans(pre shauhb), bucs, raiders, fins, vikings, redskins all teams looking for a qb in 07

plummer was known as jake the mistake...theres a reason alot of teams didnt want him....just as the market for orton may be limited for his style of play

[TXBRONC]

Mike Klis was on the ticket this morning, and in regards to the QB situation, he stated that he feels what happens to Orton depends strictly on the CBA - i.e., if it gets done quick - which would allow for training camp, Orton would be traded. If the CBA gets resolved down the line, very little time for training camp, Orton stays.

When thinking about this, I thought - OK - so if the CBA is resolved later, rather than earlier, would Orton, as well as Tebow, still not have to learn a new system, unless Fox basically goes with the same offensive scheme as last year. The only other thing I could think of was if there is no training camp, no off season workouts, the coaches would not be able to work with Tebow to try to work out some what needs to be done to make him a pro QB.

Klis has maintained that stance since the season ended. The reason he believes has to do with your second paragraph. If there is no offseason program of OTAs and mini camps and a truncated camp Klis thinks the organization wouldn't want to put Tebow in that kind of position.

[lgenf]

Guys like McDaniels can take their pass-first mentality and shove it up their ass.

WOW! Green Bay just WON the freaking Super Bowl with that mentality, that wouldn't be something you wanted?


It comes down to personnel, if you have the personnel to get it done on both sides of the ball, then the scheme doesn't really matter.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Orton won't be back. If he's not the future, he needs to be moved in exchange for part of our future. I like Orton more than a lot of folks here, but it's clear that TT is the man of the hour. Get Kyle off his shoulder and let Quinn and a rookie project handle the backup role.

[KCL]

Lonestar is crying all over his "Iggy" list right now.....

ya know I have given him about as much shit as anyone who doesn't agree with him but damn...this thread isn't about him...can you please keep this shit out of here....even tho I am a KC fan I read these threads and that shit gets old..maybe I am the only one who feels this way but stop baiting him...if I am correct that is against the CoC.

[TXBRONC]

Wow, PFT really went out on a limb.

I think the only way they might be correct is if a CBA is reached relatively quickly.

[TXBRONC]

Atta boy!!! back at you for not even being able to understand just how bad John Fox's offense is..... Ok lets got to the tape

year rushing passing
2010 13th 32nd
2009 3rd 27th
2008 3rd 19th
2007 14th 29th
2006 24th 15th
2005 19th 17th
2004 28th 9th
2003 7th 18th

WOW!!!! can't wiat for him to "Unleash the BEAST!!!!!".... Mr 3 and out here we come...

Fox has never had a franchise quarterback to build his offense around. Delhomme was a solid starter but not great.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

WOW! Green Bay just WON the freaking Super Bowl with that mentality, that wouldn't be something you wanted?


It comes down to personnel, if you have the personnel to get it done on both sides of the ball, then the scheme doesn't really matter.

So was that really the reason, or was it the THREE TURNOVERS forced by their defense, including one returned for a score, that sealed the victory?

When they beat the Bears to clinch a playoff berth, it wasn't their "high flying offense" that held the Bears to 6 points and allowed them to squeek by with 10 offensive points...

No matter how you slice it, defense still wins Championships.

[Slick]

Atta boy!!! back at you for not even being able to understand just how bad John Fox's offense is..... Ok lets got to the tape

year rushing passing
2010 13th 32nd
2009 3rd 27th
2008 3rd 19th
2007 14th 29th
2006 24th 15th
2005 19th 17th
2004 28th 9th
2003 7th 18th

WOW!!!! can't wiat for him to "Unleash the BEAST!!!!!".... Mr 3 and out here we come...

With Jake Delhome, Jimmy Claussen and Matt Moore as QB's...

Those rushing totals, especially for the last 3 years are far better than anything than we've seen in Denver in a while.


Sure I think we'll see a much more conservative offense under Fox but I think that's what this team needs for the immediate future at least.

2010 is over. I'm looking forward to the future, trying to be optimistic. You obviously aren't.

[lgenf]

So was that really the reason, or was it the THREE TURNOVERS forced by their defense, including one returned for a score, that sealed the victory?

When they beat the Bears to clinch a playoff berth, it wasn't their "high flying offense" that held the Bears to 6 points and allowed them to squeek by with 10 offensive points...

No matter how you slice it, defense still wins Championships.

I don't disagree with you a bit on that

that is why I said when you have the personnel on each side of the ball you can do whatever you want to

if we had the personnel on D and O, we absolutely could run whatever offensive scheme we wanted to

[silkamilkamonico]

I don't disagree with you a bit on that

that is why I said when you have the personnel on each side of the ball you can do whatever you want to

if we had the personnel on D and O, we absolutely could run whatever offensive scheme we wanted to

We are still going to need a dynamic offense.

We need to be real about this. We're the Denver Broncos. We're not going to have an elite defense. Probably ever. We could be very formidable like we were 2 seasons ago, but we're not going to ever have a defense that's going to carry us to the promise land, like in the mold of a Pittsburgh.

We still need a dynamic offense that could move the ball down the field through with the pass.

[vandammage13]

With Fox's MO of offense to suck badly passing, and be decent running the ball....

WHAT if anything will we get out of a Kyle Orton who throws maybe 20 passes a game?
I can hear the downward spiraling siren as Kyle goes 12/20 170 -1td 1int for about 3-4 weeks to be supplanted by Tebow and HIS average stats via John (2 out of 3 things with a pass can go bad) Fox high powered offense

That is one thing that worries me about Fox. I fear that he may be too conservative to unleash Tebow and utilize his talents to the max. TT might be hamstringed in regards to his playmaking abilities and relegated to a game-managing style of QB (which is right up KO's alley...assuming you equate game-managing with sucking).

[vandammage13]

Honestly though, J... who gives a shit about yardage? That's all those numbers represent. Not Wins/Losses (the most important stat), not even Points for/against (the second most important stat).

All I give a damn about is winning games. I could care less if we end up 32nd in passing every year as long as we are winning games, competing for the division title, and regulars in the playoffs again.

I'm looking forward to getting back to "Broncos football"... Run the ball, utilize play action, play good defense. I'd rather us have a dominant running game over a razzle-dazzle high flying passing game any day. For the first time in over a decade, we tried to win with the pass and ignore the run for the last two years... we went 12-20. Guys like McDaniels can take their pass-first mentality and shove it up their ass.

Passing first seemed to work out well for the Packers last night. What did they have like 12 rushing attempts last night? The rules are set up to benefit the pass now...evolve with the times or you'll get left behind. It's not 1986 anymore.

[SpringsBroncoFan]

Ack... quoted section dissapearing on me...

To Arapahoe...

I was talking about '07 with Plummer not '06 - although Plummer admitted AFTER he retired that he had lost his desire to play about the time he was replaced by Cutler.

The original trade with TB was for a mid round pick and was later amended to a conditional 6th when Plummer announced he was retiring...

Besides, when has it ever been required that a team do a smart thing one year and another smart thing the next... lol

As to the 07 draft, it was recognized that it sucked even before the draft. Russell the 1st QB, Brady the next...

It was only hoped about 4 of them could be starters and none of them are even starters anymore... Dallas just about did the best with UFA Matt Moore and they didn't even keep him.

Besides, what I was referring to with the supply & demand of QB's this year vs. 07 is that:

1) there were only about 4 teams in 07 actually looking for a starter and another 5 or so looking for b/u's. Houston wasn't looking for a QB, they were still happy with Carr - even though the fans didn't like him anymore.

2) this year there are about 8 looking for starters and although this is a better QB draft teams aren't likely to find 4 starters in it.

I make a distinction between starters & b/u's...

I will admit that for the laws of supply & demand to actually work here, a CBA needs to be in place.

[Bullgator]

We are still going to need a dynamic offense.

We need to be real about this. We're the Denver Broncos. We're not going to have an elite defense. Probably ever. We could be very formidable like we were 2 seasons ago, but we're not going to ever have a defense that's going to carry us to the promise land, like in the mold of a Pittsburgh.

We still need a dynamic offense that could move the ball down the field through with the pass.

I don't know about that dood... our defense has some nice pieces to build around. Don't forget Dumervil is coming back... No worries about Bailey they will def sign him and Jon Fox will automatically upgrade the D. we don't need to have a top 5 D. Top 15 will get us to the playoffs next year... mark my words... Our O will put up some points

[UnderArmour]

Apparently you missed a few games this year...

Unfortunately, I did not. And believe me, I wish I had missed more than a few games this year. Orton and Lloyd were the only things that made the Broncos worth watching until the Arizona game at which point Orton hurt his ribs but still kept playing. Just because I like Tebow does not make Orton a quitter just as it does not make Cutler a wimp.

[vandammage13]

Unfortunately, I did not. And believe me, I wish I had missed more than a few games this year. Orton and Lloyd were the only things that made the Broncos worth watching until the Arizona game at which point Orton hurt his ribs but still kept playing. Just because I like Tebow does not make Orton a quitter just as it does not make Cutler a wimp.

It was beyond boring from the SF game on....That's half the year. Once it became apparent we were going nowhere and everyone figured out how to stop Orton, it became very painful to watch. Orton started sucking waaaayy before the "rib injury."

[NameUsedBefore]

I swear I saw Orton mouth something like, "We're done" in the first half of one of our games.

He did not quit the field, clearly, muscling it onward with rib issues because he knew Tebow would permanently bench him. However, I still think Orton just mailed it in all the time. I don't entirely blame him, as the team was and possibly still is shit, but I never got the feeling Orton was out there to win. That's not technically quitting, but on a losing team that kind of mentality is quite influential. I would be worried that a culture of losing, and I believe such things do exist, was developing in Denver if it weren't for Tebow.

[silkamilkamonico]

I don't know about that dood... our defense has some nice pieces to build around. Don't forget Dumervil is coming back... No worries about Bailey they will def sign him and Jon Fox will automatically upgrade the D. we don't need to have a top 5 D. Top 15 will get us to the playoffs next year... mark my words... Our O will put up some points

1 good season avoiding injuries and other divisional teams struggling will get you to the playoffs. Look at Seattle.

If we want to build anything close to resembling a dynasty that's going to compete in the playoffs, we need a dynamic passing attack. It's basically the one common factor all current playoff competing teams have, unless you're Blatimore or maybe even the Jets, which currently have defenses we will likely never have year after year.

[BroncoStud]

Unfortunately, I did not. And believe me, I wish I had missed more than a few games this year. Orton and Lloyd were the only things that made the Broncos worth watching until the Arizona game at which point Orton hurt his ribs but still kept playing. Just because I like Tebow does not make Orton a quitter just as it does not make Cutler a wimp.

Cutler's no whimp, but his head needs to be screwed on more tightly.

Tebow looks pretty promising, but my expectations aren't that high. He needs to work on his mechanics.

Orton quit in the Oakland game, the Arizona game, and the San Diego game - without a doubt. Lloyd was a gamer and he had an amazing season, in fact, his ability made Orton look almost legit and helped Tebow along in his 3 starts. Orton's a quitter in my eyes, when the going gets tough Orton checks out. I honestly believe that Orton was happy getting his yardage in a pass-happy offense, no matter the situation and he feels that is enough to be a starter for this team, his own words seem to support that conclusion.

[PAINTERDAVE]

1 good season avoiding injuries and other divisional teams struggling will get you to the playoffs. Look at Seattle.

If we want to build anything close to resembling a dynasty that's going to compete in the playoffs, we need a dynamic passing attack. It's basically the one common factor all current playoff competing teams have, unless you're Blatimore or maybe even the Jets, which currently have defenses we will likely never have year after year.

Agreed. I think you state the best reason why it is imperitive to get Tebow in and find out what he's got.

Wasting yet another season with a stopgap QB is not productive.
Finding out if our #25 pick QB will work out or not IS productive.

I hope/have faith/want to know if....
Tim can develop a balanced attacking offensive style.
A good run game with KM and the improved O-line...
the ability to pass screens, short, long and over the middle...
coupled with his "intangibles" and scrambling ability.

Sitting the kid another season does not make sense.

By the way... the article uses a straw man argument...
(Orton would win 6 or 7 and Tebow would win 3 or 4.)
That argument is specious and false upon its face.

[PAINTERDAVE]

I swear I saw Orton mouth something like, "We're done" in the first half of one of our games.

He did not quit the field, clearly, muscling it onward with rib issues because he knew Tebow would permanently bench him. However, I still think Orton just mailed it in all the time. I don't entirely blame him, as the team was and possibly still is shit, but I never got the feeling Orton was out there to win. That's not technically quitting, but on a losing team that kind of mentality is quite influential. I would be worried that a culture of losing, and I believe such things do exist, was developing in Denver if it weren't for Tebow.

That event is talked about happening during the Raider Debacle.
GEM will attest to the veracity of your claim... yet no film exists to verify.

I believe GEM.

[Bullgator]

That is one thing that worries me about Fox. I fear that he may be too conservative to unleash Tebow and utilize his talents to the max. TT might be hamstringed in regards to his playmaking abilities and relegated to a game-managing style of QB (which is right up KO's alley...assuming you equate game-managing with sucking).

TT is known for taking matters into his own hands when its critical... good or bad he will go rogue like he did with the 40y TD run against the raiders... it wasn't a mistake as you can see in the clip buck knows to lead block right of the bat.. he clearly called his own number.

The reason he can do that is that TT creates problems for opposing defenses. He makes the game 11 on 11 again on account of his legs. Essentially with TT at the QB spot, there will always be a weakness in the defense, either room to run or a 1on1 sitch to take advantage of. THATS what McD saw in him... He just needs a year under his belt to tighten up the timing and decision making and we are gold.

[Northman]

WOW! Green Bay just WON the freaking Super Bowl with that mentality, that wouldn't be something you wanted?


It comes down to personnel, if you have the personnel to get it done on both sides of the ball, then the scheme doesn't really matter.


While i agree that it does come down to personnel dont sell the GB running game short. They were ranked 6th this year in rushing. Denver was nowhere in that hemisphere.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Passing first seemed to work out well for the Packers last night. What did they have like 12 rushing attempts last night? The rules are set up to benefit the pass now...evolve with the times or you'll get left behind. It's not 1986 anymore.

Like I said before, The Packer's win had more to do with their defense's 3 turnovers and 7 points scored than anything else. That same "super duper passing attack" and inability to run the ball is what allowed the Steelers to crawl back into it while the offense went 3 and out and didn't burn any clock in the 3rd quarter. Had the Steelers been able to come back and win on that final drive, it would've been the Packers' passing game and lack of balance that was as much at fault as anything.

The inability to run he football put the Packers in a self-inflicted, one-dimensional offense. Aaron Rodgers is an elite QB with an elite arm. Maybe 5 teams in the league have a QB (and supporting WR cast) good enough to take on a defense as good as the Steelers, when they know you're going to pass, and be successful. Props to Aaron Rodgers for his MVP performance, but there's nobody on this roster or the other 80% of the league who could've done that.

Just because a couple of QBs do a pretty good job when they have to throw the ball 35 times a game doesn't mean it's preferred. Hell, look at the stats for the high-flying Saints offense last year. Would it surprise you to know that the Saints were near the top of the league in rushing last year when they won the Superbowl? Look at Tom Brady and his MVP performance this year, then check out NE's rushing numbers. Not what you'd expect from a "pass happy" offense. NE has actually run the ball quite a bit more (and more effectively) since McDaniels left...

Having a potent passing attack is great, but without balance, it's usually ineffective. What happened yesterday is the exception to the rule.

[BroncoStud]

Passing first seemed to work out well for the Packers last night. What did they have like 12 rushing attempts last night? The rules are set up to benefit the pass now...evolve with the times or you'll get left behind. It's not 1986 anymore.

This is very true, the rules favor passing attacks.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

That same "super duper passing attack" and inability to run the ball is what allowed the Steelers to crawl back into it while the offense went 3 and out and didn't burn any clock in the 3rd quarter.

Here and I thought it was the absence of 2 of their most important defensive players...

[Juriga72]

With Jake Delhome, Jimmy Claussen and Matt Moore as QB's...

Those rushing totals, especially for the last 3 years are far better than anything than we've seen in Denver in a while.


Sure I think we'll see a much more conservative offense under Fox but I think that's what this team needs for the immediate future at least.

2010 is over. I'm looking forward to the future, trying to be optimistic. You obviously aren't.

My main concer is if Fox tries his "Run first...run often" style here...... THAT might dig us a huge hole we will struggle to get out of.

Dont forget he also had Steve Smith AND Moose Muhamand when they were BOTH studs catching passes. Having TWO pretty ALL pro wideouts and still being that low in passing...

I am worried as hell John tries his run, run, run, punt style he's famous for. I watched the game against the Bears this year.... WOW... Down 17-3 Carolina ran something like 13 out 15 plays. Granted Clausen was sucking up the joint... but man RUNNING into the Bears defense while getting 4 picks from whoever was playing for Cutler ( concussion)...

[Juriga72]

Like I said before, The Packer's win had more to do with their defense's 3 turnovers and 7 points scored than anything else. That same "super duper passing attack" and inability to run the ball is what allowed the Steelers to crawl back into it while the offense went 3 and out and didn't burn any clock in the 3rd quarter. Had the Steelers been able to come back and win on that final drive, it would've been the Packers' passing game and lack of balance that was as much at fault as anything.

The inability to run he football put the Packers in a self-inflicted, one-dimensional offense. Aaron Rodgers is an elite QB with an elite arm. Maybe 5 teams in the league have a QB (and supporting WR cast) good enough to take on a defense as good as the Steelers, when they know you're going to pass, and be successful. Props to Aaron Rodgers for his MVP performance, but there's nobody on this roster or the other 80% of the league who could've done that.

Just because a couple of QBs do a pretty good job when they have to throw the ball 35 times a game doesn't mean it's preferred. Hell, look at the stats for the high-flying Saints offense last year. Would it surprise you to know that the Saints were near the top of the league in rushing last year when they won the Superbowl? Look at Tom Brady and his MVP performance this year, then check out NE's rushing numbers. Not what you'd expect from a "pass happy" offense. NE has actually run the ball quite a bit more (and more effectively) since McDaniels left...

Having a potent passing attack is great, but without balance, it's usually ineffective. What happened yesterday is the exception to the rule.

This same thing happened when Green Bay beat Chicago... UP 14 points at half.... all of a sudden the Bears start stopping them, and getting the ball back. Hell.... EVEN Caleb Hanie was able to throw on them once they figured out the O-line protection and Capers blitzes...

BTW... did you happen to see what the Packers were playing the second half on defense????


Cover-2 all night

[horsepig]

The worst part of all of this is without a CBA, this perceived QB controversy could linger all the way into next season. I was hoping we could deal Orton early and move on, but it seems that the FO is somewhat handcuffed by the lack of CBA along with the fact that I honestly don't think they have even made a decision about who they really want to be their QB next year.

The majority of the fans apparently want Tebow. Elway is brand new and Fox is a more old-school, conservative HC. They may decide to stick with Orton as a "safe pick". Personally, I think that's a mistake, but I'm just a fan. As it stands, Orton is under contract for one more year, and no matter who starts at QB this year, the likely hood that the Broncos are playoff bound is slim so it really doesn't matter other than to appease the fans who want Tebow.

Honestly, I don't think Orton is worth anywhere near what the media thinks he is. Remember, Jake Plummer only garnered a 6th round pick one year removed from the AFCCG. I was never a big Plummer fan, but I'd rather have him than Orton any day of the week and he was, IMO, a better QB.

I can really see this turning out as the Broncos not getting a 2nd or whatever and Orton staying on for one more year with about the same results (just with fewer numbers because Fox won't be having Orton throw the ball 50 times a game so he won't have near the passing stats). About 1/2 way through the season when we're sitting at 2-6, Tebow will probably replace Orton to try to stimulate a disgruntled fanbase and get the fans back at home games.

Orton will then leave via FA (for which we'll get nothing) and be signed on elsewhere as a backup where he'll spend the rest of his career bouncing around as the journeyman backup for a few years on several teams.

Really HP, you "think" Plummer was a litle better than Orton? Good Lord.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I miss Plummer. His bad was pretty bad, but he gave us a hell of a chance to win. I'm still angry w/ Shanny for pulling him for Cutler when we were on our way to the playoffs. I know our O was struggling and our D was exhausted as a result, but he still gave us the best chance to win and had just taken us to the AFCCG the prior year. I thought he earned one last shot. I don't blame him at all for being pissed w/ the organization.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I think we can get a 3rd for Orton. Too many teams who believe they are a QB away from making a real run at things, but are too veteran laden to wait on a rookie. San Fran and Minnesota come to mind, with Zona maybe believing they are a QB away from winning that weak division. The only other options out there could be Kolb and McNabb. We have SOME leverage and I believe we could get a 3rd.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Really HP, you "think" Plummer was a litle better than Orton? Good Lord.

I guess it depends who you ask. I've seen some folks on this very board compare Kyle Orton to Peyton Manning...

:confused:

[Dzone]

I would take Plummer over Orton. Who wouldnt?

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I guess it depends who you ask. I've seen some folks on this very board compare Kyle Orton to Peyton Manning...

:confused:

Maybe Eli...Maybe.

[BroncoStud]

Really HP, you "think" Plummer was a litle better than Orton? Good Lord.

There might be 3 of you on this board who would take Orton over Plummer. It's not even close, Jake is hands down the better QB, and he had a great winning percentage here.

[BigSarge87]

My main concer is if Fox tries his "Run first...run often" style here...... THAT might dig us a huge hole we will struggle to get out of.

Dont forget he also had Steve Smith AND Moose Muhamand when they were BOTH studs catching passes. Having TWO pretty ALL pro wideouts and still being that low in passing...

I am worried as hell John tries his run, run, run, punt style he's famous for. I watched the game against the Bears this year.... WOW... Down 17-3 Carolina ran something like 13 out 15 plays. Granted Clausen was sucking up the joint... but man RUNNING into the Bears defense while getting 4 picks from whoever was playing for Cutler ( concussion)...

I'm still not convinced that Fox is going to come in and change the offense much. He's going to be pretty busy with the defense. I bet he lets McCoy pretty much run the show.

[jhildebrand]

How can you even say Orton is a quitter? If you're going to criticize the guy, do not tell flat out lies. Orton NEVER quit.

No lie was told and especially not one that was flat out.

ORTON QUIT! I said it again!

If you understand and KNOW football, then you would know from watching the second KC game and the AZ game that Orton Q-U-I-T! Quit! QUIT! Not one media person who follows the broncos in town here saw it as anything but-QUITTING. "He played like he knew the team wouldn't pull him and he played like he couldn't care less. He eventually quit." Sandy Clough.

I am not a Cutler fan by any means but I am surprised to see so many of the Orton lovers who quickly proclaimed Cutler quit but can't see it with Orton.

Give me a full 16 game season to see what Tebow can do. If he sucks, then we will be in a position, once again, to draft luck.

Or... we can go on pretending that Orton can win us 6 or 7 games when he can't even lead the team to a opening drive TD until week 8 let alone lead the team down by 7.

[PAINTERDAVE]

I'm still not convinced that Fox is going to come in and change the offense much. He's going to be pretty busy with the defense. I bet he lets McCoy pretty much run the show.

I strongly agree.

I think that Elway probably made sure when he interviewed Fox...
that he made it clear that we want a balanced offense...
to take advantage of what strengths we do have.

Fox has a chance to be a part of something new and different than what he did in Carolina.
I expect he wants to come in and do what it takes to win...
not simply try to recreate what did not work in Carolina the past 8 years.

At the risk of sounding like a "Tebowner"
(which seems to be either a badge of courage or a mark of scorn around here)...
look at the highlights of those last games McCoy coordinated and Tebow QB'd.

There was a good deal of balance there. Add in a stiffer running game...
and I think we have a decent ability to score some points.

With Fox, McCoy, Allen and a good defensive draft... a FA TE... maybe an O-lineman...
I like our chances to improve dramaticly and rapidly.

[Juriga72]

ya know I have given him about as much shit as anyone who doesn't agree with him but damn...this thread isn't about him...can you please keep this shit out of here....even tho I am a KC fan I read these threads and that shit gets old..maybe I am the only one who feels this way but stop baiting him...if I am correct that is against the CoC.

KCl...... Just to point out a few facts here.....



...Making references to an "iggy" list as a means to bait is itself childish ...,

[Nomad]

KCl...... .

Put them on ignore and problem solved for you!!

[Juriga72]

Put him on ignore and problem solved for you!!

He is on my "Iggy" list....... Along with Adolf Hitler, George W. Bush, and Kyle Orton.....

[BroncoStud]

I caught a lot of BS on this board when I questioned (I know, how dare we QUESTION) the hiring of John Fox as a knee-jerk reaction to the Josh McDaniels debacle.

However, it is never good policy to hire a coach and create a front office based on the mistakes of a 32 year old Head Coach / GM who never should have held that power in the first place.

Fox is VERY conservative on offense and his offense consistently rank in the bottom half of the NFL. He has a tendency to prefer veterans to younger players, which can be good and bad but bad when it comes at a price to the team. He had 3 winning seasons with the Panthers and he had very good defensive players until this past season when he won 2 games...

I hope our offense more resembles the one Shanahan ran here than the one Fox ran in Carolina. Perhaps he too has grown as a coach and learned from the mistakes he made with the Panthers, we need him to understand how vital a solid passing game is to your chances of winning on a consistent basis.

The rules do favor passing the football in 2011. Denver is going to have to be better at passing than his Carolina teams were. I truly hope he understands that.

[Juriga72]

I caught a lot of BS on this board when I questioned (I know, how dare we QUESTION) the hiring of John Fox as a knee-jerk reaction to the Josh McDaniels debacle.

However, it is never good policy to hire a coach and create a front office based on the mistakes of a 32 year old Head Coach / GM who never should have held that power in the first place.

Fox is VERY conservative on offense and his offense consistently rank in the bottom half of the NFL. He has a tendency to prefer veterans to younger players, which can be good and bad but bad when it comes at a price to the team. He had 3 winning seasons with the Panthers and he had very good defensive players until this past season when he won 2 games...

I hope our offense more resembles the one Shanahan ran here than the one Fox ran in Carolina. Perhaps he too has grown as a coach and learned from the mistakes he made with the Panthers, we need him to understand how vital a solid passing game is to your chances of winning on a consistent basis.

The rules do favor passing the football in 2011. Denver is going to have to be better at passing than his Carolina teams were. I truly hope he understands that.
Wes Walls- Pro Bowl 2002,

Steve Smith- 4x Pro Bowl-2001,2005,2006,2008
Stephen Davis- Pro Bowl 2003
Moose Muhammad- Pro Bowl 2004
Jake Delhomne- Pro Bowl 2005
Jordan Gross-LT- Pro Bowl 2008,2009,2010
Deangelo Williams- Pro Bowl 2009
Brain Kalil- Pro Bowl 2010

Thats a list of his "Offensive Pro Bowl" players he had to "Deal" with as a average offensive coach....

[BroncoStud]

Trust me I am not protecting him.I have called him out when I didn't agree with him on Cutler.What I'm saying is the shit gets old...if that's childish then so be it.And the shit you both sling is childish.And I could care less about his iggy list.

You've been slinging plenty of your own shit lately... Pot meet kettle :elefant:

[KCL]

You've been slinging plenty of your own shit lately... Pot meet kettle :elefant:

Oh really? who have I gotten personal with? Who have I called names and made fun of?

[KCL]

I am sorry for the derail...:D

[BroncoStud]

Oh really? who have I gotten personal with? Who have I called names and made fun of?

"I'm not going to show any of your posts but you're just going to have to take my word for it..." :elefant:

[hotcarl]

His "iggy" list

whats an iggy list, precious? :confused:

[KCL]

"I'm not going to show any of your posts but you're just going to have to take my word for it..." :elefant:

If I agreed with you on this...we'd both be wrong....:elefant:

[TXBRONC]

I caught a lot of BS on this board when I questioned (I know, how dare we QUESTION) the hiring of John Fox as a knee-jerk reaction to the Josh McDaniels debacle.

However, it is never good policy to hire a coach and create a front office based on the mistakes of a 32 year old Head Coach / GM who never should have held that power in the first place.

Fox is VERY conservative on offense and his offense consistently rank in the bottom half of the NFL. He has a tendency to prefer veterans to younger players, which can be good and bad but bad when it comes at a price to the team. He had 3 winning seasons with the Panthers and he had very good defensive players until this past season when he won 2 games...

I hope our offense more resembles the one Shanahan ran here than the one Fox ran in Carolina. Perhaps he too has grown as a coach and learned from the mistakes he made with the Panthers, we need him to understand how vital a solid passing game is to your chances of winning on a consistent basis.

The rules do favor passing the football in 2011. Denver is going to have to be better at passing than his Carolina teams were. I truly hope he understands that.

I think you are mistaken about the hiring of Fox as knee jerk reaction. The hired who they thought was best qualified. Fox has had success at this level. You keep bringing up his record but until this season he had won 80% games. So I don't think we got coach whose been failure.

I also taken into account who his starting quarterback was over that period of time. Delhomme was by no means a franchise quarterback that could carry a team on his shoulders. Imo he's pretty much in the same grouping a Orton or at least was earlier in his career.

Shanahan as offensive minded coach pretty much has the same philosophy as Fox on run to pass ratio. Even with a franchise quarterback like Elway Shanahan prefered to keep the run to pass ratio pretty close to a 50-50 split.

[jhildebrand]

7-9 with Rodney Peete! That alone is good enough for me!

There were some I liked better however given the state of the Broncos (we are a Champ Bailey short of being the equivalent of an expansion team) I can see all the values of John Fox. He turned them around in 2 seasons. Let's hope he can do the same here!

[BroncoStud]

I think you are mistaken about the hiring of Fox as knee jerk reaction. The hired who they thought was best qualified. Fox has had success at this level. You keep bringing up his record but until this season he had won 80% games. So I don't think we got coach whose been failure.

I also taken into account who his starting quarterback was over that period of time. Delhomme was by no means a franchise quarterback that could carry a team on his shoulders. Imo he's pretty much in the same grouping a Orton or at least was earlier in his career.

Shanahan as offensive minded coach pretty much has the same philosophy as Fox on run to pass ratio. Even with a franchise quarterback like Elway Shanahan prefered to keep the run to pass ratio pretty close to a 50-50 split.

TX, before this season Fox had a career regular season winning percentage of 55%, nowhere CLOSE to 80%. Now he is right at 50% for his career with only 3 winning seasons. I'm not saying he's a bad coach because I don't think he is, he's a good coach and a secure coach.

I still believe he was a knee jerk reaction to McDaniels though, I think this entire situation is. I still can't believe Xanders was retained...

[Bullgator]

Oh really? who have I gotten personal with? Who have I called names and made fun of?

um.... ME lol

[KCL]

um.... ME lol

You deserved it though...:D

[TXBRONC]

TX, before this season Fox had a career regular season winning percentage of 55%, nowhere CLOSE to 80%. Now he is right at 50% for his career with only 3 winning seasons. I'm not saying he's a bad coach because I don't think he is, he's a good coach and a secure coach.

I still believe he was a knee jerk reaction to McDaniels though, I think this entire situation is. I still can't believe Xanders was retained...

You base the hiring of Fox as knee jerk reaction to McDaniels based on what?

[BroncoStud]

You base the hiring of Fox as knee jerk reaction to McDaniels based on what?

Based on the idea that the Broncos couldn't bring in a more successfully proven Head Coach, or even attempt to. Bowlen wasn't going to allow any coach to have an inkling of the power that Shanny and McDummy had based on what happened with McDummy.

Our list of candidates was very underwhelming and it was full of guys who would be LUCKY to get a gig of this stature. You aren't going to land a Gruden, Cowher, a Marty, or possibly even a Capers-type Head Coach by being afraid to give up some control to that person.

McDummy was a 32 year old jackass, it was Bowlen's fault for giving him the power in the first place, he had no track record and he had no experience at any level of being a Head Coach and certainly not a GM.

Fox was coming off a 2-14 season in which they didn't even look like they were trying to win. He was probably the best of what Denver interviewed though I would have liked to have seen Dennison get a shot as well...

It was a knee-jerk to the trauma McDummy put Bowlen and the fans through.

Elway has no experience at his position either - not to say he isn't going to be good because he very well might, but his position was created as a knee-jerk to McDummy as well.

[TXBRONC]

Based on the idea that the Broncos couldn't bring in a more successfully proven Head Coach, or even attempt to. Bowlen wasn't going to allow any coach to have an inkling of the power that Shanny and McDummy had based on what happened with McDummy.

Our list of candidates was very underwhelming and it was full of guys who would be LUCKY to get a gig of this stature. You aren't going to land a Gruden, Cowher, a Marty, or possibly even a Capers-type Head Coach by being afraid to give up some control to that person.

McDummy was a 32 year old jackass, it was Bowlen's fault for giving him the power in the first place, he had no track record and he had no experience at any level of being a Head Coach and certainly not a GM.

Fox was coming off a 2-14 season in which they didn't even look like they were trying to win. He was probably the best of what Denver interviewed though I would have liked to have seen Dennison get a shot as well...

It was a knee-jerk to the trauma McDummy put Bowlen and the fans through.

Elway has no experience at his position either - not to say he isn't going to be good because he very well might, but his position was created as a knee-jerk to McDummy as well.

It was well documented before they even started looking for a coach that they were not going go after Gruden or Cowher. From what's been said it had to do with price tag that comes with hiring a Gruden or a Cowher. That does sound anything like a knee-jerk reaction to me. Besides that what there is absolutely no guarantee that either one of those guys would be able to come in and turn things around.

And again no I don't see bringing Elway in as knee-jerk reaction. It looks to me like Bowlen finally got the idea he need to go in a more traditional direction as far the make up the hierarchy is concerned. It had been kicked for several years about bringing Elway back in some capacity. The fiasco with McDaniels provided the final impetus for getting it done.

If you want talk about something could look like knee-jerk reaction bring in Dennison could certainly fit in that category.

Maybe you're right but right now I don't think are.

[silkamilkamonico]

It was well documented before they even started looking for a coach that they were not going go after Gruden or Cowher. From what's been said it had to do with price tag that comes with hiring a Gruden or a Cowher. That does sound anything like a knee-jerk reaction to me. Besides that what there is absolutely no guarantee that either one of those guys would be able to come in and turn things around.

And again no I don't see bringing Elway in as knee-jerk reaction. It looks to me like Bowlen finally got the idea he need to go in a more traditional direction as far the make up the hierarchy is concerned. It had been kicked for several years about bringing Elway back in some capacity. The fiasco with McDaniels provided the final impetus for getting it done.

If you want talk about something could look like knee-jerk reaction bring in Dennison could certainly fit in that category.

Maybe you're right but right now I don't think are.

IMO just shows how much in trumoil this organiztion is right now. Fox is a safe choice because he is a program builder. He has some high credentials. He is a very good coach. I don't think anyone can look at his resume and say he can build a competitive playoff dynasty type situation here, like Belichek, Tomlin, Sean Payton, or even Rex Ryan, and he isn't an unknown hope that the organization wishes will somehow be an elite mind like they did with McDaniels.

Consider this;

Who's our best offensive coaching mind on staff? McCoy? That is scary.

We have legitimate questions all over the front office. Everywhere.

Our defense is going to be making yet another significant change, and is swimming in a world of unstability.

IMO, Fox was hired in hopes of giving this program some stability and building it back up, in hopes of finding another coach down the road that can keep us competitive in (not for) the playoffs every year. It's a good hire and there's nothing wrong with it considering where the organization is at, but that's just it. It shows IMO how far down the totem pole this organization is right now. We're still paying 2 HC's not on staff, and employed by other organizations.

[TXBRONC]

IMO just shows how much in trumoil this organiztion is right now. Fox is a safe choice because he is a program builder. He has some high credentials. He is a very good coach. I don't think anyone can look at his resume and say he can build a competitive playoff dynasty type situation here, like Belichek, Tomlin, Sean Payton, or even Rex Ryan, and he isn't an unknown hope that the organization wishes will somehow be an elite mind like they did with McDaniels.

Consider this;

Who's our best offensive coaching mind on staff? McCoy? That is scary.

We have legitimate questions all over the front office. Everywhere.

Our defense is going to be making yet another significant change, and is swimming in a world of unstability.

IMO, Fox was hired in hopes of giving this program some stability and building it back up, in hopes of finding another coach down the road that can keep us competitive in (not for) the playoffs every year. It's a good hire and there's nothing wrong with it considering where the organization is at, but that's just it. It shows IMO how far down the totem pole this organization is right now. We're still paying 2 HC's not on staff, and employed by other organizations.

I'm not ready to write McCoy of just yet. It's not like he had proven franchise quarterback to work with. Besides that he should be pretty well versed in the type of offense that Fox likes to run.

[BroncoStud]

I'm not ready to write McCoy of just yet. It's not like he had proven franchise quarterback to work with. Besides that he should be pretty well versed in the type of offense that Fox likes to run.

McCoy deserves a season to see what he's capable of.

[Italianmobstr7]

I want to win and I don't care who we win with. I've seen Orton play. I know what he can do. Now I'd like to see what Tebow can do.

[sneakers]

I would be shocked if they did.

But I think Orton gave it his all while he was here, so hopefully another team will give him a shot.

[TXBRONC]

I would be shocked if they did.

But I think Orton gave it his all while he was here, so hopefully another team will give him a shot.

I think really depends the when a CBA is in place.

[Lonestar]

I would be shocked if they did.

But I think Orton gave it his all while he was here, so hopefully another team will give him a shot.
I think you may be correct.

Orton left nothing in reserve.

I think for the most part every one did the same.


But for the most part many Players were hurt and not able to give 100%.

Until late in the year the oline was a work in progress. Much the same for RB.

If we would have had an effective running game did not have to be top ten.
I believe things may have turned out differently.

The d would still have been bad but maybe not as bad.
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[Dreadnought]

I would take Plummer over Orton. Who wouldnt?

Me. Look again at the horrific performance Plummer put in during 2006. Go through the boxscores if you can stomach it. It was easily the worst QB performance in Denver since Elway's rookie year in '83. I'd take Orton in a hot minute over Plummer. Note that this does not mean I am joining Topscribe's Kyle Orton fan club anytime soon - its more a measure of my total disdain for Jake Plummer. My feelings on Orton define the word "ambivalence"

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/2006.htm

[Juriga72]

Me. Look again at the horrific performance Plummer put in during 2006. Go through the boxscores if you can stomach it. It was easily the worst QB performance in Denver since Elway's rookie year in '83. I'd take Orton in a hot minute over Plummer. Note that this does not mean I am joining Topscribe's Kyle Orton fan club anytime soon - its more a measure of my total disdain for Jake Plummer. My feelings on Orton define the word "ambivalence"

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/2006.htm

I thought it was his 1-3 playoff record.... OR maybe those two huge blow out losses to Indy that made you hate him...LOL

[Dreadnought]

I thought it was his 1-3 playoff record.... OR maybe those two huge blow out losses to Indy that made you hate him...LOL

The Indy losses I can't blame on Jake; we couldn't stop Peyton Manning, and seemingly never have. As for the playoff losses? Feh. Any QB can be forgiven a crap playoff performance - after all, those are top tier NFL defenses they are facing then. No, Plummer in '06 stunk consistently, even when we played chump defenses like the '06 Rams.

[hotcarl]

hay guys who is up for a straight up cutler for orton deal? maybe throw in his favorite manbaby, ryan LAZY??? we dont really need a left tackle now that we have tim tee-slow lets just give up a draft pick while im at it !!! shit this thing sells itself! GOOD RIDDANCE CLADY!!!





:coffee:

[Lonestar]

The Indy losses I can't blame on Jake; we couldn't stop Peyton Manning, and seemingly never have. As for the playoff losses? Feh. Any QB can be forgiven a crap playoff performance - after all, those are top tier NFL defenses they are facing then. No, Plummer in '06 stunk consistently, even when we played chump defenses like the '06 Rams.

I agree with all you said .. But have to add the offense in 06 sucked for both him and jay who had the advantage of the oline having 11 games to figure it out.

I think we can all agree that it was ill conceived by dinger trying to ask the oline built for rollouts and ZBS to play pocket pass protect being out weighed man for man by 15 to 60 pounds per player. In 08 when were records very few sacks we were back to jay rolling out ALOT.

overall good post

[BroncoStud]

Me. Look again at the horrific performance Plummer put in during 2006. Go through the boxscores if you can stomach it. It was easily the worst QB performance in Denver since Elway's rookie year in '83. I'd take Orton in a hot minute over Plummer. Note that this does not mean I am joining Topscribe's Kyle Orton fan club anytime soon - its more a measure of my total disdain for Jake Plummer. My feelings on Orton define the word "ambivalence"

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/2006.htm

Other than the 2006 season, in which Plummer looked like he didn't even want to be playing football let alone starting at QB, Jake had VERY good seasons in Denver and has been our best QB since Elway retired. He was very underrated in what Shanahan was able to get out of him.

I agree that it was time to move on, but as a whole, Jake's body of work for the Denver Broncos was very solid.

[TXBRONC]

Other than the 2006 season, in which Plummer looked like he didn't even want to be playing football let alone starting at QB, Jake had VERY good seasons in Denver and has been our best QB since Elway retired. He was very underrated in what Shanahan was able to get out of him.

I agree that it was time to move on, but as a whole, Jake's body of work for the Denver Broncos was very solid.

Underrated? No not at all. Plummer's time in Denver was a mixed bag so I wouldn't say he had very good seasons in Denver. It was clearly better than what he did in Arizona but it still wasn't great. His two best overall seasons he only threw 17 touchdowns which is pedestrian at best. His first season as starter he broke his foot and missed a quarter of season I think. His second season he threw for a lot of yards and equaled Elway's team record 27 touchdowns but he also threw 20 interception. So very good? Nah. His improvement was because what Shanahan did with him.

[Juriga72]

Underrated? No not at all. Plummer's time in Denver was a mixed bag so I wouldn't say he had very good seasons in Denver. It was clearly better than what he did in Arizona but it still wasn't great. His two best overall seasons he only threw 17 touchdowns which is pedestrian at best. His first season as starter he broke his foot and missed a quarter of season I think. His second season he threw for a lot of yards and equaled Elway's team record 27 touchdowns but he also threw 20 interception. So very good? Nah. His improvement was because what Shanahan did with him.

I still cannot fathom why people couldn't see that it was our defense that carried Jake.... I mean seriously

2003- #4 overall #9 scoring
2004-#4 overall #9 scoring
2005 #15 overall #3 scoring
2006 #14 overall #8 scoring

Yeah... Even Kyle COULD win games with that defense behind him....

Oh wait... lets see "How Jake did it all himself!!!"
2003- #3 rushing
2004-#4 rushing
2005-#2 rushing
2006-#8 rushing

Well.... I guess we can say that Jake Plummer was carried to "Averageness" by his running and Defense....

[Dzone]

Ambivalence about Orton is common. I think most people cant stand Orton and if he trotted out as the starter next season, would get some of the loudest booing ever heard in Colorado history.

[Mike]

Ambivalence about Orton is common. I think most people cant stand Orton and if he trotted out as the starter next season, would get some of the loudest booing ever heard in Colorado history.

Because moving forward with Orton is stepping back as a team. Sink or swim with Tebow. If he sinks, we know what we have to draft next year.

[Dzone]

There is a lot of animosity toward Orton. Mainly because he acts like a jerk.

[vandammage13]

There is a lot of animosity toward Orton. Mainly because he acts like a jerk.

True...and his comments this offseason make it seem like he thinks he's a lot better than he really is. Dude needs a reality check.

[TXBRONC]

Because moving forward with Orton is stepping back as a team. Sink or swim with Tebow. If he sinks, we know what we have to draft next year.

But if there is prolonged lockout and the team has two maybe three weeks to get prepared fot he season I don't know if that would be putting Tebow in a position to succeed. From what I've been reading the team feels he really needs a full off season to get ready.

[TXBRONC]

There is a lot of animosity toward Orton. Mainly because he acts like a jerk.

Do you mean just on the net or are talking about in and around CO?

[Mike]

But if there is prolonged lockout and the team has two maybe three weeks to get prepared fot he season I don't know if that would be putting Tebow in a position to succeed. From what I've been reading the team feels he really needs a full off season to get ready.

I am sure that Tebow is putting in a lot of time preparing himself for this season. And at this point in time I am taking everything that comes out of Dove Valley with a grain of salt.

Nothing will change my opinion...Denver is a better team and a team that plays with more fire with Tebow under center. Going back to Orton is going in the wrong direction.

[BroncoStud]

But if there is prolonged lockout and the team has two maybe three weeks to get prepared fot he season I don't know if that would be putting Tebow in a position to succeed. From what I've been reading the team feels he really needs a full off season to get ready.

Tebow's already better than Orton, there is no more "Kyle gives us the best chance to win" crap... Tebow proved in 3 games this team is more competitive with him at QB. I don't care if they have 1 day to prepare, Tebow gives Denver the better chance to win, and that's more a knock on Orton than props for Tebow.

[BroncoStud]

Do you mean just on the net or are talking about in and around CO?

Same nonsense that went on in Chicago... Orton sucks, Orton's developing, we can't stand to watch Orton play, Orton was hurt, Orton sucks on 3rd down and the redzone...

Most couldn't stand him, a few hardcores defended him... In the end the majority of them were estatic to get rid of him and bring in Cutler.

[Juriga72]

Same nonsense that went on in Chicago... Orton sucks, Orton's developing, we can't stand to watch Orton play, Orton was hurt, Orton sucks on 3rd down and the redzone...

Most couldn't stand him, a few hardcores defended him... In the end the majority of them were estatic to get rid of him and bring in Cutler.

I was on the CBMB and its funny..... a couple of the diehard Orton fans are now "Diehard Bronco fans"..... hmmmmm Of course they are at another "Denver Bronco Meassage Board" and they are pretty loud there....

But yeah, everything that the Bear fans hated him for became glaringly apparent here. Of course he did set a NFL record in 2005....

"most wins by a NFL Qb with a qb rating LESS than 50"- 4 wins in one year

[silkamilkamonico]

There is a lot of animosity toward Orton. Mainly because he acts like a jerk.

Orton has been an upstanding citizen in the community of Denver. People can say whatever they want about him as a QB, but nobody should be making up these false accusations that he was an asshat and represented the community terribly. The only legitimate beef people can have with Orton is he didn't handle the Tebow situation very well, and that's it. That's not even a big deal at all with the exception of the Tebow worshippers, which is a ridiculous argument in its own right.

I was never a fan of Orton the QB, and I hated the move to get him, but not even I am as stupid enough to assume he was a terrible representation of the Denver community. That's just absurd.

[silkamilkamonico]

Tebow's already better than Orton, there is no more "Kyle gives us the best chance to win" crap... Tebow proved in 3 games this team is more competitive with him at QB. I don't care if they have 1 day to prepare, Tebow gives Denver the better chance to win, and that's more a knock on Orton than props for Tebow.

I'm not even sure why people aregue this. Neither Tebow, or Orton, are top 20 QB's in the NFL right now. That's how ugly the QB situation is in Denver right now. Tebow has potential to be good and we'll see, Orton is beyond that.

The who's better, "Jon Kitna or Jay Fielder" argumentis in full effect in Denver these days.

[vandammage13]

I'm not even sure why people aregue this. Neither Tebow, or Orton, are top 20 QB's in the NFL right now. That's how ugly the QB situation is in Denver right now. Tebow has potential to be good and we'll see, Orton is beyond that.

The who's better, "Jon Kitna or Jay Fielder" argumentis in full effect in Denver these days.

id take fiedler over kitna....dude went to dartmoth, so you know he's good.

[Juriga72]

Dude.... KITNA..... he's got a cannon for a arm. PLUS he can take a sack like no one else can....

[vandammage13]

Dude.... KITNA..... he's got a cannon for a arm. PLUS he can take a sack like no one else can....

But Fiedler resembles a hobbit, and therefore probably has magical powers.

[Juriga72]

But Fiedler resembles a hobbit, and therefore probably has magical powers.

I want THIS guy... just think of how good HE can be.....LOL

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog/dr_saturday/post/Video-UConn-s-backup-QB-is-a-Jedi-master-of-mea?urn=ncaaf-318722

[silkamilkamonico]

Fiedler is a free agent. We should sign him to tutor Tebow. We woul dhave the ultimate depth at QB. Mirror images.

[vandammage13]

Fiedler is a free agent. We should sign him to tutor Tebow. We woul dhave the ultimate depth at QB. Mirror images.

Sign him now!!!!

http://www.sportsmemorabilia.com/files/cache/3bf/jay-fiedler-auto-2001-fleer-tradition-card-186-jsa-q_3bf1c0803d46048365665a72e7ba6db1.jpg

http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/81344542.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789215ABF3343C02EA5487895A94260C014E4 40B6F10B20BE19BE857F97F2459508C8

Just look at the determination in his eyes...

[TXBRONC]

Tebow's already better than Orton, there is no more "Kyle gives us the best chance to win" crap... Tebow proved in 3 games this team is more competitive with him at QB. I don't care if they have 1 day to prepare, Tebow gives Denver the better chance to win, and that's more a knock on Orton than props for Tebow.

At least publicly that's not what Elway is saying.

[TXBRONC]

But Fiedler resembles a hobbit, and therefore probably has magical powers.

Hobbits don't have magical powers unless you count big hairy feet as magical power. :D

[BroncoStud]

At least publicly that's not what Elway is saying.

Elway can't condemn Orton publicly when he's trying to trade him though.

[rcsodak]

How can you even say Orton is a quitter? If you're going to criticize the guy, do not tell flat out lies. Orton NEVER quit.
He didn't.

Plus, with ANY increase in defense, and a 4th place finish in the division, I should hope that with Orton, additional wins would happen.

I wonder how many posters here would have the ability to play QB in the NFL with banged up ribs. (rhetorical, since I already know the answer)

Coulda swore TT had to sit out after getting whacked in the 'lowly' preseason.....

just sayin'.....


:coffee:

[Juriga72]

He didn't.

Plus, with ANY increase in defense, and a 4th place finish in the division, I should hope that with Orton, additional wins would happen.

I wonder how many posters here would have the ability to play QB in the NFL with banged up ribs. (rhetorical, since I already know the answer)

Coulda swore TT had to sit out after getting whacked in the 'lowly' preseason.....

just sayin'.....


:coffee:
Can you please explain to me then.....

"How come Kyole Orton has not played a full year of Football at either the NFL or College level since.............2003"

Because IF you cannot keep from getting injured/benched for 7 STRAIGHT years..... it makes you fragile

[rcsodak]

Exactly...it seems like we kept hearing that quote regurgitated over an over every game after the SF game by the coaching staff, and subsequently various members on this board.

Of course, that quote quickly lost its creedence as we continued to lose (getting blown out im many cases), and Orton seemed to be highly regressing as the season wore on.

Wouldn't the HC, who WANTED/DRAFTED TT, probably have the best idea on who was the better QB, in 2010? Who gave them the best chance to win? Who saw FIRST HAND where TT was in his progression?

I enjoyed watching TT make the plays only he could make, as much as the next guy, but who's to say a healthy Orton couldn't have won that 1game, or possibly more?

I think it's pure conjecture to assume he couldn't/wouldn't.*



*if healthy

[rcsodak]

if the team suspected plummer was gonna retire they would not have extended him in 06 just to trade him in 07 ofseason

as for no valuE FOR QBS....the browns, lions, texans(pre shauhb), bucs, raiders, fins, vikings, redskins all teams looking for a qb in 07

plummer was known as jake the mistake...theres a reason alot of teams didnt want him....just as the market for orton may be limited for his style of play

That was before he had a decent HC, rap.

After getting saved from AZ:
59% Completions (5% better than his avg)
8gm run with 0INT's
71TD's/47INT's(90TD/114INT in AZ)
83.75 QBR(68.5QBR in AZ)
Playoffs 3/3yrs he started/finished

Not All-Pro numbers, but no longer "jake the mistake". ;)

[rcsodak]

So was that really the reason, or was it the THREE TURNOVERS forced by their defense, including one returned for a score, that sealed the victory?

When they beat the Bears to clinch a playoff berth, it wasn't their "high flying offense" that held the Bears to 6 points and allowed them to squeek by with 10 offensive points...

No matter how you slice it, defense still wins Championships.

:confused:

Thought you were talking about offenses, 56?

300yds/3TD's/0INT's vs Pitt D, with timely running mixed in to keep them honest.
Sounds eerily like what NO did last year.

Yes, you DO need a defense, but the top running teams (KC/OAK/NYJ) weren't in the SB.

In the copycat league known as the NFL, the passing game with it's liberal rules is clearly the 'in thing'. The league has been pushing for it and it's subsequent scoring, and until they decide otherwise, it will continue to be a passing league. IMO.

ie. NE, with it's no-name rb's/wr's and above avg OL/franchise QB. BB adds some D help with all his picks this year.....hello, SB.

[rcsodak]

While i agree that it does come down to personnel dont sell the GB running game short. They were ranked 6th this year in rushing. Denver was nowhere in that hemisphere.

Not sure where you get that.

http://www.nfl.com/teams/statistics?season=2010&team=GB&seasonType=REG

Not sure about Denver not being in the same hemisphere, either.

http://www.nfl.com/teams/statistics?team=DEN

~4yds/game sounds like it's on the same Block. ;)

Fact is, Denver avg'd .1yds MORE (3.9 vs 3.8) *HUGE...I know, right?!* And scored 2 more rushing TD's than GB did.

Also, Denver avg'd ~3pts/gm less, is all. It was the Defense that sucked.

[rcsodak]

You base the hiring of Fox as knee jerk reaction to McDaniels based on what?

http://www.databasefootball.com/coaches/coachpage.htm?coachid=FoxJoh01

71-57 coaching record for Fox....with a franchise/owner cheaper than Jax.

Works for me. :coffee:

[Juriga72]

http://www.databasefootball.com/coaches/coachpage.htm?coachid=FoxJoh01

71-57 coaching record for Fox....with a franchise/owner cheaper than Jax.

Works for me. :coffee:

It would work for me if you had even looked at it.....

See... the LAST year was "2009" where he went 8-8.... NOW.... if you add the 2-14 2010 season he just HAD...... you get :

73-71.... WHICH btw..is a career .506%...YE....ha:coffee:



John Fox
Overall: 71 - 57
Playoffs: 5 - 3

Year Team Season Playoffs
2002 CAR 7 - 9 - 0 -
2003 CAR 11 - 5 - 0 3 - 1
2004 CAR 7 - 9 - 0 0 - 0
2005 CAR 11 - 5 - 0 2 - 1
2006 CAR 8 - 8 - 0 0 - 0
2007 CAR 7 - 9 - 0 0 - 0
2008 CAR 12 - 4 - 0 0 - 1
2009 CAR 8 - 8 - 0 0 - 0

The saddest part..... 8 wins and 2 wins = 10 for the last two years.....
Josh McDaniels- 11 wins last two years.....................

[BroncoStud]

Not sure where you get that.

http://www.nfl.com/teams/statistics?season=2010&team=GB&seasonType=REG

Not sure about Denver not being in the same hemisphere, either.

http://www.nfl.com/teams/statistics?team=DEN

~4yds/game sounds like it's on the same Block. ;)

Fact is, Denver avg'd .1yds MORE (3.9 vs 3.8) *HUGE...I know, right?!* And scored 2 more rushing TD's than GB did.

Also, Denver avg'd ~3pts/gm less, is all. It was the Defense that sucked.

The difference between Green Bay and Denver is that they had a defense and Aaron Rodgers, we have no defense and Kyle Orton. It's not even close.

[BroncoStud]

http://www.databasefootball.com/coaches/coachpage.htm?coachid=FoxJoh01

71-57 coaching record for Fox....with a franchise/owner cheaper than Jax.

Works for me. :coffee:

So I guess 2010 doesn't count, that would make Fox 73-71... Nice manipulation and falsification of data though. :elefant:

[Juriga72]

The difference between Green Bay and Denver is that they had a defense and Aaron Rodgers, we have no defense and Kyle Orton. It's not even close.

See.... IF Kyle had a defense that gave up "15.1 pts/game"..HE too could have led us to a Super Bowl win......

stupid defense......costing Kyle a Super Bowl MVP like that

[HORSEPOWER 56]

:confused:

Thought you were talking about offenses, 56?

300yds/3TD's/0INT's vs Pitt D, with timely running mixed in to keep them honest.
Sounds eerily like what NO did last year.

Yes, you DO need a defense, but the top running teams (KC/OAK/NYJ) weren't in the SB.



Neither was the most prolific passing team (New England). Surprise, surprise the two teams in the Superbowl had the #1 and #2 ranked scoring defenses...

Tell me again that even with how well Rodgers played that the Packers still win that Superbowl without the 3 turnovers by the Steelers (forced by the Packers' defense).

[Juriga72]

Neither was the most prolific passing team (New England). Surprise, surprise the two teams in the Superbowl had the #1 and #2 ranked scoring defenses...Tell me again that even with how well Rodgers played that the Packers still win that Superbowl without the 3 turnovers by the Steelers (forced by the Packers' defense).

HP.... You should try "how well did he play against Chicago?"... and his stellar/Orton like 55.4 qb rating game he had....where the difference was a pick six by a 360 pound D-lineman...

[weazel]

I'd rather them win 11 or 12 with either or both

[TXBRONC]

I agree defense still wins championships but having a franchise quarterback is just as important. I bet there are few people here that would comfortable Orton having to make clutch plays we the offense is sputtering for the most part.
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[Krugan]

I agree defense still wins championships but having a franchise quarterback is just as important. I bet there are few people here that would comfortable Orton having to make clutch plays we the offense is sputtering for the most part.
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"see this season"

[TXBRONC]

"see this season"

:sad:
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[ArmyOfBroncos]

My guess is that Dawkins and Bailey are out along with Thomas and Larsen and I think that everyone of the DT should be worried. I would like to see them use Orton to gain a key Def. player like a safety and a draft pick. My guess would be that there are enough QB hungry teams right now to get a great deal. I hope they take Patrick Peterson as the 1 round pick to help replace Bailey. If they are able to get a second first round pick I would like to see them get Mark Ingram or Julio Jones to seal the deal on the offensive side and take Marcell Dareus for a second pick to add extra beef on top of Elvis’s return. Anyways just my thought on possible top picks and trades.:defense: