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BMF Bronco
09-23-2008, 10:06 AM
So watching the annihilation of the NY Bretts last night, a couple of things came to mind, but the first and foremost is this. Do we give our D a little leniency after seeing how potent the SD offense is? They sliced through the Bretts like a hot knife through butter. I have been on the fence with this, considering the last two games we have played are two of the highest powered offenses in the NFL. Yes I know they blew a lot of assignments, but they did stand pat when they needed to. Not to mention the comparison between how Jay played against them vs. how faveruh did! And second, watching the game really made me appreciate how good our team really may be. I truly beleive we have one of the upper eschelon teams in the league this year.

Your thoughts?

LRtagger
09-23-2008, 10:13 AM
Not really, no.

The Chargers put up 48 points because they Jetts offense was terrible. They had a lot of trouble moving the ball against a terrible SD defense and had umpteen turnovers. The Chargers started a majority of their drives in NY territory.

Phyllis still threw for almost 150 more yards against our vaunted secondary. Rivers has no business throwing for almost 400 yards against us.

NightTrainLayne
09-23-2008, 10:19 AM
The Jets gave them the ball at mid-field or closer several times between interceptions and the missed on-sides kick.

However, the offense can't do anything about where they got the ball at, and they moved the ball at will, and scored with virtually every opportunity until they turned their attention to running out the clock.

Our defense looks better by comparison, but it doesn't mean we're any better than we were before. It's bad, it's just good to know that some other folks are just as bad as we are.

Kaylore
09-23-2008, 10:30 AM
The Chargers had a lot of help from the Bretts. Several interceptions and fumbles by the Bretts. Also consider Favre looked totally lost. He's not a very bright guy. It took him years to learn the west coast offense. They still hung thirty points on the boltz.

yardog
09-23-2008, 10:41 AM
So watching the annihilation of the NY Bretts last night, a couple of things came to mind, but the first and foremost is this. Do we give our D a little leniency after seeing how potent the SD offense is? They sliced through the Bretts like a hot knife through butter. I have been on the fence with this, considering the last two games we have played are two of the highest powered offenses in the NFL. Yes I know they blew a lot of assignments, but they did stand pat when they needed to. Not to mention the comparison between how Jay played against them vs. how faveruh did! And second, watching the game really made me appreciate how good our team really may be. I truly beleive we have one of the upper eschelon teams in the league this year.

Your thoughts?

The Jets have a 4-12 Def.

popps
09-23-2008, 03:38 PM
Interesting post, BMF. I think the most I can agree with though... is that we DID make a few plays when we needed to.

Beyond that, I can't really put much stock in the fact that the Chargers also carved up the Jets. That just means the Jets might be as bad as we are, and as someone pointed out... the Jets had very little offense in the first half.

Go back one week earlier and the Panthers held them to a couple of scores.

Our defense is just really bad. It's just a carbon copy...year after year. No pass rush, no attacking scheme and we're absolutely incapable of getting a team of the field on 3rd down. No lead is safe.

All that said, if we can make ANY improvements as the season goes on, we've got a shot. But, last year... we got worse as it went on. We'll see what happens.

ApaOps5
09-23-2008, 03:42 PM
Well I think we can both agree Popps, that Engleberger has proven to be a stud. Don't you think?

Beantown Bronco
09-23-2008, 03:45 PM
I just want two or three of the young guys on this current defensive unit to have the same "aha" moment that DJ seemed to have halfway through last year, when he went from a clueless MLB to a tackle machine. If we can get that, this unit will be just fine.

But, make no mistake.....just because other units look like garbage against the top offenses too, it doesn't make our's any better.

TehChamp
09-23-2008, 03:49 PM
Jets offense is freakin horrible, I can't believe the amount of people that thought they would be in contention for a Super Bowl this year.
The Chargers got so much momentum, the Jets couldn't keep up.

CoachChaz
09-23-2008, 03:52 PM
Jets offense is freakin horrible, I can't believe the amount of people that thought they would be in contention for a Super Bowl this year.
The Chargers got so much momentum, the Jets couldn't keep up.

They have a great line and a QB that can still make plays despite his age...they just dont have the talent at WR and RB to make a difference.

popps
09-23-2008, 03:58 PM
Well I think we can both agree Popps, that Engleberger has proven to be a stud. Don't you think?

But, he's "really good against the run." He tackles people, so he must be "really good against the run."

Never mind that he's manhandled on almost every play, or the fact that our defense is 15th against the run... giving up over 4 ypc and was horrible last year.

It's everyone else and not John.

popps
09-23-2008, 04:00 PM
The other issue is one I've been trying to explain for a couple of years, now.

I love Dumervil for what he brings... but the guy just can't be counted on in big games or big situations. We see it week in and week out. He was invisible again this week against a quality offense and was AWOL against the Chargers. Last year, he came up AWOL in our biggest tests and same the year before.

He's a situational player and a nice novelty to have, but he's hardly a guy you can count on. Even single-blocked, he's not been producing. It seems that there's a book on him now and blockers are generally able to just lock him up and that's the end of it.

Beantown Bronco
09-23-2008, 04:02 PM
But, he's "really good against the run." He tackles people, so he must be "really good against the run."

Never mind that he's manhandled on almost every play, or the fact that our defense is 15th against the run... giving up over 4 ypc and was horrible last year.

It's everyone else and not John.

It's the complete opposite of the blind Ian Gold hatred that went around last year. For whatever reason, 99% of the defense's struggles last year were blamed on Ian. Now he's not around to blame any more, yet we have another guy that could fill the role of scapegoat, yet many go out of their way to defend him. I guarantee you that if his jersey said "Gold" on the back, everyone and their mothers would be on here bad-mouthing him mercilessly.

Cugel
09-23-2008, 04:10 PM
The Chargers defense is worse rated overall than Denver's. Without Shawne Merriman they've struggled. But, the Jets can't score with a $100 bill and a cheap hooker on Saturday night.

In fact Denver has faced possibly THREE of the worst defenses in the NFL (besides their own). Oakland's was the best of the three. San Diego has played horribly on defense and the Saints haven't a clue defensively.

Next week we face a team that can't score to save their lives but plays decent defense. It will be interesting to see if the offense has an "off" game.

If they do that will be a sign that they're not that great, just made to look good by bad defenses.

Meanwhile, the Broncos defense just flat sucks all over. They've been mediocre against the run, but nobody has bothered to try to run on them. All three teams have been trying desperately to catch up to Denver's early lead, so they've had to abandon the run quickly.

Unfortunately, the pass-defense is so bad that even KNOWING the other team has to pass, and putting 8 defenders in coverage does nothing.

KC is a perfect test. They are a pathetic team, but they play well at home against the Broncos. They have maybe the worst offense in the NFL, but their defense is average.

Can the Broncos defense stop the Chiefs offense from running up and down the field all day and scoring 25-30 points? That will be the test.

Can ANYBODY score at will on Denver? Or is it only the top QBs and offenses.

Because Thigpen is not exactly Peyton Manning out there. And he hasn't got much in terms of an offense to help him.

If they can't stop KC they can't stop ANYBODY. So, the jury is out on just how bad the Broncos defense really is. :coffee:

My inner-cynic is predicting the Chiefs will score some early points, the crowd will be howling, the Chiefs will wake up and say "hey! Maybe we're not so bad after all!"

And it will be another high-scoring nail biter, where no-talent bums who never do another thing on offense all year will still make the Broncos defense look like amateurs. :coffee:

Doom crew72
09-23-2008, 04:14 PM
I just don't have much faith in our defense.

But we did make plays when we had too, so that's good.

The hard part is we score so much so it forces the other teams to throw on us which is our weakness.

topscribe
09-23-2008, 04:17 PM
Well I think we can both agree Popps, that Engleberger has proven to be a stud. Don't you think?


But, he's "really good against the run." He tackles people, so he must be "really good against the run."

Never mind that he's manhandled on almost every play, or the fact that our defense is 15th against the run... giving up over 4 ypc and was horrible last year.

It's everyone else and not John.

Too good. :lol:

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Davii
09-23-2008, 04:22 PM
The other issue is one I've been trying to explain for a couple of years, now.

I love Dumervil for what he brings... but the guy just can't be counted on in big games or big situations. We see it week in and week out. He was invisible again this week against a quality offense and was AWOL against the Chargers. Last year, he came up AWOL in our biggest tests and same the year before.

He's a situational player and a nice novelty to have, but he's hardly a guy you can count on. Even single-blocked, he's not been producing. It seems that there's a book on him now and blockers are generally able to just lock him up and that's the end of it.

Do you think maybe it has something to do with the rods or pins or whatever that are in his hand from the surgery he had during preseason which, IIRC, is keeping him from being able to use that hand effectively?

I don't know.... maybe?

The way I understand it is Dumervil is basically out there playing with one hand. Can anyone elaborate on this and how it is or isn't affecting him?

topscribe
09-23-2008, 04:37 PM
Do you think maybe it has something to do with the rods or pins or whatever that are in his hand from the surgery he had during preseason which, IIRC, is keeping him from being able to use that hand effectively?

I don't know.... maybe?

The way I understand it is Dumervil is basically out there playing with one hand. Can anyone elaborate on this and how it is or isn't affecting him?

Dumervil said he can't grab onto anything. That is a critical necessity for a
pass rusher, to be able to grab and throw aside. So he has been out there
without one of his most important tools.

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Beantown Bronco
09-23-2008, 04:43 PM
Dumervil said he can't grab onto anything. That is a critical necessity for a
pass rusher, to be able to grab and throw aside. So he has been out there
without one of his most important tools.

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If that's true, then he is clearly hurting the team by taking the field at all. Let Moss get more time out there. I find it really hard to believe that Moss can't be more effective than a one armed man. If he can't, then they may as well just let him go.

topscribe
09-23-2008, 04:46 PM
If that's true, then he is clearly hurting the team by taking the field at all. Let Moss get more time out there. I find it really hard to believe that Moss can't be more effective than a one armed man. If he can't, then they may as well just let him go.

Think.

If Moss would have been better than Doom, Moss would have been out there.

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Davii
09-23-2008, 04:47 PM
Think.

If Moss would have been better than Doom, Moss would have been out there.

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Doesn't say a lot for Moss.

topscribe
09-23-2008, 04:51 PM
Doesn't say a lot for Moss.

Not at present, no. But we have to remember that he is essentially a rookie,
having been through a serious injury, from which he probably is still recovering.
He reported underweight, and that may well be at least partly because of his
injury. He certainly wasn't in football shape after being laid up for a year and
being able only sporadically to take part in camp.

I really want to see what he looks like when he reports to OTAs next year.
That is when my opinion will really start to form.

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hamrob
09-23-2008, 05:20 PM
I think San Diego's Offense is very good. I think Rivers is as Aikman said...close to that top-5 ranking (Jay's right there too). So, yeah...you give our guys some slack...but I really think most are missing the point. We are going to have to stop a team like the Bolts to go anywhere in the Playoffs. That's what's disapointing about our D. The Jet's aren't a playoff team!

I think we are top-10 in terms of Teams (Right now). I think we need to get better to crack that top-5. I think there are 2-3 teams that are right there with us in the AFC...and then you have the NFC East. Could we beat the Giants, Cowboys, Eagles or even the Skins right now...Maybe the skins.

Let our offense play 4 quarters consistently...and our defense work its way into a top 10 range...and then I think we are there.

Superchop 7
09-23-2008, 05:29 PM
I'm glad that Shanny is looking at this situation as if he is 0-3 and the defense lost every game.

Do what you gotta do coach, you have my blessing.

Moss will be a beast next year, just let it ride for now, Tops right, he is pretty much a rookie at this point.

Watching the last 2 games live, my opinion is that they need to be more aggresive, sending 4 isn't getting it done.

And, our MLB play is terrible, and terrible is being nice.

IMO, they need to sit Doom for a week and let him heal up.

hamrob
09-23-2008, 06:15 PM
Not at present, no. But we have to remember that he is essentially a rookie,
having been through a serious injury, from which he probably is still recovering.
He reported underweight, and that may well be at least partly because of his
injury. He certainly wasn't in football shape after being laid up for a year and
being able only sporadically to take part in camp.

I really want to see what he looks like when he reports to OTAs next year.
That is when my opinion will really start to form.

-----Top...I think all this talk about Moss essentialy being a rookie is way over rated. The kid went through a full camp last year as a rookie and played in the first 6 games last year...starting 1. He had all year with the team rehabbing...went though all the mini-camps and a full 2nd camp with the team. He's alot further ahead than any rookie would be. I don't think you can keep saying he's "essentially a rookie" out there.

He is what he is....a string bean who once in a while might find a way around a corner to get pressure on the QB...other than that...he's pathetic.

hamrob
09-23-2008, 06:20 PM
Both Doom and moss are LB's playing DE. Take a peak at some of the top defenses in the league...and tell me who these two compare to?

Keep one as a situational pass rusher...get rid of the other. Sign a stud DE next year....develop Crowder or get rid of him...and move on.

topscribe
09-23-2008, 07:43 PM
Top...I think all this talk about Moss essentialy being a rookie is way over rated. The kid went through a full camp last year as a rookie and played in the first 6 games last year...starting 1. He had all year with the team rehabbing...went though all the mini-camps and a full 2nd camp with the team. He's alot further ahead than any rookie would be. I don't think you can keep saying he's "essentially a rookie" out there.

He is what he is....a string bean who once in a while might find a way around a corner to get pressure on the QB...other than that...he's pathetic.

Well no, he didn't go through a full camp this year. The team worked him in as
camp progressed. He was still recovering when camp started, as I understand.

That fact that he has watched his teammates play football does not remove
his effective rookie status. I have watched football, and I have played
football (at DE, in fact). Trust me, playing gets you more experience than
watching. (Good thing I got in full practices. I wasn't getting much experience
sitting on the bench during games. :laugh: )

Moreover, Moss has more to deal with than just being effectively a "rookie."
He was effectively out of football for a year. I don't care if you're a seven-
year vet: If you are out of football for a year, it takes a while to come back.
Then he had to learn the system. Yes, he has been around while, studying
with them, watching film, watching them practice. But he has missed out on
the most important part of his training and indoctrination: hands on. There is
a big difference between studying theory and facing off against Walter Jones.

Add to that the physical setback he has suffered as a result of the injury and
the lack of actual practice and games.

I'm not making excused for him, and I'm not arguing on his behalf. I'm only
providing the reasons why I'm going to wait until next year before I bust him
in my own mind . . . you know, when he won't have any excuses.

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popps
09-23-2008, 07:45 PM
The way I understand it is Dumervil is basically out there playing with one hand. Can anyone elaborate on this and how it is or isn't affecting him?

I can't elaborate much, but I did say when this happened that people were underestimating how serious a pinky injury could be for a guy playing his position. People poo-poo'd it, but Dumervil himself said he was going to really struggle overcoming not being able to use one hand properly.

I do think as he heals, that should make a difference. That said, I do still think the guy disappears in big games. I love having him as a weapon, but he really needs talent around him out there. He's just not a dominating player.

topscribe
09-23-2008, 07:47 PM
Both Doom and moss are LB's playing DE. Take a peak at some of the top defenses in the league...and tell me who these two compare to?

Keep one as a situational pass rusher...get rid of the other. Sign a stud DE next year....develop Crowder or get rid of him...and move on.

Well then, I would keep the one who got 12½ sacks last year and get rid of the one who didn't. :whoknows:

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