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View Full Version : Broncos were using 3-4 against NO



Tned
09-23-2008, 07:40 AM
Ok, I must admit, that when I am watching the game live and also participating in chats and stuff, I typically don't look that closely at the personell packages on the field.

So, while I saw the three man front, which was impossible to miss, I didn't look to see if we had an extra LB vs. extra DB in. I just assumed it was an extra DB.

According to Shanahan in his press conference, at least some of the time, he indicated we were playing a 3-4 with two middle LBs in the game, to go with our two OLB's.

Now, I know much as been made about whether or not the Broncos should go to a 3-4 like many other teams have, and we typically have talkeda bout the fact that the Broncos really don't have the talent to do so. Well, it appears that the Broncos are going to give it a shot anyway. Shanny also, while saying he wasn't going to give out his game plans, indicated that they would be using it more in the future.

If they are going to use the 3-4 in the future, then I think that the Broncos need to consider using Moss or Dumervil at one of the OLB spots, rotating Englberger, Crowder and Ekuban at ends and rotate Thomas and Robertson at nose tackle. Then, move Bailey to ILB, rather than OLB to play with webster in the middle.

So, if the Broncos are going to continue with this, I think they need to change up the personell for it a bit.

Some time I will watch the game again, and pay more attention to how often they have 5 LBs, vs. 6 DBs.

Thoughts?

Buff
09-23-2008, 08:01 AM
The way I interpreted it, as I said in another thread, is that he intends to use the 3-man front more for passing situations to get pressure on the QB and disguise the rush better. He hinted at it not being so much a true 3-4 as much as it is a hybrid of sorts. I don't think we'll see it implemented on a regular basis, though I'm interested to see if we can be more effective with it using some more elaborate blitzing.

Dreadnought
09-23-2008, 08:03 AM
Well, not am impressive debut for the 3-4. Not surprising given it was brand spanking new and against one of the best passing attacks in the game.

Robertson has already proven he is not a real NT with the Jets. Thomas? Who knows. I agree Moss and Dumerville would be interesting OLB choices; more Moss than Doom, as we already know Doom can bring some heat from a DE position, and we have yet to see Moss do much of anything at all.

Overall, I'm not impressed, but maybe if we stick with it? I dunno...Maybe....

broncofaninfla
09-23-2008, 08:04 AM
I'm not convinced we have the right players on the line for the 3/4 but I like seeing Winborn on the field.

anton...
09-23-2008, 08:18 AM
i generically agree with the statements made before mine...

i too think we will try and implement it on passing downs to get a little more speed on the field and to hopefully create some confusion while blitz calling anything BUT our usual and horribly ineffective 4 man D line rush...

we will always remain a 4-3 base team...

but its good to see some hybrid mix ups being implemented...

many teams around the league are using it with great effect and i think its about time we gave it a crack...

hybrids seem to be the best options going around...

with offenses becoming so potent all around the league, defenses now too have to adapt or fall too far behind...

defense this season as a whole seems less effective than years past (which is great for fans as we see more scoring)

the common 4-3 just doesnt cut it for everyone anymore...

Kaylore
09-23-2008, 08:47 AM
This is really an indictment of our front four.

Tned
09-23-2008, 09:00 AM
This is really an indictment of our front four.

Agreed.

LordTrychon
09-23-2008, 09:34 AM
Agreed.

Thirdeded.

Northman
09-23-2008, 09:48 AM
Ok, I must admit, that when I am watching the game live and also participating in chats and stuff, I typically don't look that closely at the personell packages on the field.

So, while I saw the three man front, which was impossible to miss, I didn't look to see if we had an extra LB vs. extra DB in. I just assumed it was an extra DB.

According to Shanahan in his press conference, at least some of the time, he indicated we were playing a 3-4 with two middle LBs in the game, to go with our two OLB's.

Now, I know much as been made about whether or not the Broncos should go to a 3-4 like many other teams have, and we typically have talkeda bout the fact that the Broncos really don't have the talent to do so. Well, it appears that the Broncos are going to give it a shot anyway. Shanny also, while saying he wasn't going to give out his game plans, indicated that they would be using it more in the future.

If they are going to use the 3-4 in the future, then I think that the Broncos need to consider using Moss or Dumervil at one of the OLB spots, rotating Englberger, Crowder and Ekuban at ends and rotate Thomas and Robertson at nose tackle. Then, move Bailey to ILB, rather than OLB to play with webster in the middle.

So, if the Broncos are going to continue with this, I think they need to change up the personell for it a bit.

Some time I will watch the game again, and pay more attention to how often they have 5 LBs, vs. 6 DBs.

Thoughts?

If thats the case then im pissed. Wasnt the whole purpose of getting Robertson so that he could help with the run game but that the Jets were really not utilizing him the way he is best suited for? :lol:

LRtagger
09-23-2008, 09:51 AM
I thought we picked up Robertson because he was supposed to be a stud in the 4-3. He is the reason we didnt draft a DT high I thought.

Anyways, does anyone know who the 4 LBs were on the field at the same time? I am guessing they had Winborn in with the other three.

This can only be effective if we come up with a lot of different looks and blitz packages...something we did not do against NO.

If we are going to rush three and drop 8 into coverage, might as well have three down lineman, ONE lb, and 7 DBs. No point in asking our LBs to cover the likes of Bush and Sproles. I don't care how fast our LBs are, they arent keeping up with those guys.

Maybe if we put 11 DBs on the field we wont give up infinity passing yards.

turftoad
09-23-2008, 09:54 AM
Now, about that defense.

Yes, the Broncos are 3-0 and scoring points like Air Coryell. Their offense ranks second in the NFL. Everyone except them is amazed. In private, they might even be a little bit amazed.

On the flip side, their defense ranks 28th in points allowed (28 per game) and 30th in yards allowed. Their pass defense ranks 32nd, also known as last. The Saints' Drew Brees passed for more yards (421) than any other NFL quarterback in Week 3.

Generally speaking, teams with defensive rankings like these don't win championships. In fact, Mike Shanahan used to preach the correlation between top-five scoring defenses and Super Bowl champions.

In his team's defense - and it could certainly use one - Shanahan points out it is doing much better against the run (106 yards per game) than it did last year (142.6). After all, if you can stop the run, you can work to improve against the pass. If you can't stop the run, your opponent has no reason to pass.

But it's also worth mentioning that LaDainian Tomlinson and Deuce McAllister were injured when the Chargers and Saints came to town, and that the Broncos took quick leads that required both visitors to switch to comeback mode early. Against comeback mode, the Broncos gave up a lot of ground and a lot of points.

Shanahan again mentioned a new scheme, but it wasn't clear if he was talking about the change at defensive coordinator or the surprising deployment of a 3-4 defense at times Sunday.

For a minute there, I was looking for Barney Chavous, Rubin Carter and Rulon Jones. When an outside linebacker came up to blitz, I thought it might be Tom Jackson.

If Shanahan was referring merely to the change in defensive administrations, it isn't much of an excuse. Bob Slowik basically took over for Jim Bates midway through last season. And it's hard to make the case that during the offseason they can put in a complex passing game - also with a new coordinator - but not a defense.

If it's the 3-4, that's a much more promising problem. For a coach who believes personnel dictates game plans and not the other way around, as Shanahan does, the 3-4 is nothing more than an admission that you have better linebackers than linemen.

This is how the Patriots have generated their pass rush during the Bill Belichick era. It has been six years since a defensive lineman led the Patriots in sacks, and even then Richard Seymour had to share the distinction with linebacker Willie McGinest. For the past five seasons, a linebacker led them every time.

The Broncos frequently deployed upright linebackers on either side of their down linemen when they went 3-4 Sunday. Brees had no trouble negotiating this wrinkle. In fact, the Saints had better luck throwing than running against it. But then, Brees is one of the most capable quarterbacks around and the Broncos were taking their first look at the 3-4 in a game setting.

"Even though it didn't work out, I think it'll pay dividends down the line," Shanahan said Monday.

The disadvantage of a four-man front, as Shanahan pointed out, is its predictability. Except for some exotic zone drops, the opposing offense generally knows that on a pass play, the four linemen are coming. If somebody blitzes to help, he gives away the coverage scheme.

A 3-4 provides more flexibility. The outside 'backers can come, creating a five-man front, or they can drop into coverage and the inside 'backers can come, or any other combination you can think of.

"You've got to feel good about your linebackers to play that," Shanahan said. "Jamie Winborn played exceptionally well against the Raiders and the preseason games when Boss (Bailey) was out, so we do have the luxury now to do some three-man looks, which, maybe in the past, with five linebackers (on the roster), you didn't.

"But we have seven on our team now and we believe it fits some of the things we can do. I'm not going to give you our game plan, but it does give us the ability to change things up a little bit more."

This looks like the best chance the Broncos have to mount some sort of pass rush. For all the changes in scheme and coordinators, their weak link defensively is still up front.

Their first two draft picks of 2007 were supposed to solve this problem. Instead, defensive linemen Jarvis Moss and Tim Crowder take turns being inactive on game day and the Broncos have the same defensive ranking that got Bates fired.

Granted, the Chargers and Saints are two of the best offenses in football. The hapless Chiefs should provide considerable statistical relief this week.

Still, when you give up 500 yards of offense to anybody, that's not good.

If it can stay healthy, the Broncos offense will hold up its end this year. The defense is still looking for a way to do the same.

Tned
09-23-2008, 09:58 AM
Anyways, does anyone know who the 4 LBs were on the field at the same time? I am guessing they had Winborn in with the other three.


I know he mentioned Winborn, and I think he said he only had 4 healthy or active LBs. He said something about having 7 LBs healthy going into next week, so it almost sounded like he would have more LBs active. Hard to say, I was only half listening to the recording of the news conference this morning.

dogfish
09-23-2008, 10:21 AM
Thoughts?



yea. . . based on its "success" vs. new orleans, i think we should never, ever do it again!


:laugh:



i'm going to rewatch the game and pay closer attention, but i sure didn't see many exotic blitzes. . . i don't care if you line up 3-4 or 4-3, a sissy drop-back zone with a three man rush is the same weaksauce either way. . . besides, are they reaaally going to ask doom to two-gap against running plays? :rolleyes: trying to play a 3-4 with our undersized personnel will get us murdered the first time we face a team with any sort of power running game rather than a combination of reggie bush and pierre thomas. . . . WTH is wrong with just lining up and blitzing from the 4-3? worked just fine in '05, when we had QBs picking dirt out of their teeth on a regular basis and we were racking up the turnovers. . . .

Bad Intentions
09-23-2008, 10:27 AM
Well, not am impressive debut for the 3-4. Not surprising given it was brand spanking new and against one of the best passing attacks in the game.

Robertson has already proven he is not a real NT with the Jets. Thomas? Who knows. I agree Moss and Dumerville would be interesting OLB choices; more Moss than Doom, as we already know Doom can bring some heat from a DE position, and we have yet to see Moss do much of anything at all.

Overall, I'm not impressed, but maybe if we stick with it? I dunno...Maybe....

It's going to be a passing down set for us and I doubt Robertson will be on the field for that set on 3rd downs. More likely you'll see Thomas in there and Ekuban on the end. I agree that Jarvis and Elvis should be OLBs in those sets. I fear that the Broncos are so high on Winborn though that he will be the extra backer on the field.

The real issue I see is that Paymah is such a liability in coverage that we can't cover for him. Jack Williams is going to have to see the field soon. The Broncos are protecting him for fear of ruining his confidence...

Tned
09-23-2008, 10:30 AM
It's going to be a passing down set for us and I doubt Robertson will be on the field for that set on 3rd downs. More likely you'll see Thomas in there and Ekuban on the end. I agree that Jarvis and Elvis should be OLBs in those sets. I fear that the Broncos are so high on Winborn though that he will be the extra backer on the field.

The real issue I see is that Paymah is such a liability in coverage that we can't cover for him. Jack Williams is going to have to see the field soon. The Broncos are protecting him for fear of ruining his confidence...

The problem is that against NO, they went exclusively to a three man front, except in short yardage and goal line.

Bad Intentions
09-23-2008, 10:36 AM
The problem is that against NO, they went exclusively to a three man front, except in short yardage and goal line.

Fitting since the Saints went almost exclusively, except in short yardage and goal line, to a passing attack after they went down by 3 scores!

Lonestar
09-23-2008, 10:41 AM
if that was the debut it IMO should also be the finale..

Sure it can get better, what other way could it possibly go..

HEY PAT we need a real DC someone that can find his own ass with both hands..

The experiment of not having a real, professional GM should be over also..

Bad Intentions
09-23-2008, 10:41 AM
If thats the case then im pissed. Wasnt the whole purpose of getting Robertson so that he could help with the run game but that the Jets were really not utilizing him the way he is best suited for? :lol:

Again, realize that in obvious passing situations (most of the 2nd half) we were in the 3-4. In running situations we were in the traditional 4-3 set. Either way, I'm surprised that Shanny bought off on the 3-4 seeing how he would never allow Coyer to run it when we were in the same situation. I imagine that it would have been pretty effective when Coyer had Al Wilson, DJ Williams, a still effective Ian Gold and then he could've used Patrick Chukwarah as his rush OLB. Oh well, at least he's coming around now. We don't have as good of LBs. But I think with the speed at LB we can at least make a little noise.

Tned
09-23-2008, 10:45 AM
Again, realize that in obvious passing situations (most of the 2nd half) we were in the 3-4. In running situations we were in the traditional 4-3 set. Either way, I'm surprised that Shanny bought off on the 3-4 seeing how he would never allow Coyer to run it when we were in the same situation. I imagine that it would have been pretty effective when Coyer had Al Wilson, DJ Williams, a still effective Ian Gold and then he could've used Patrick Chukwarah as his rush OLB. Oh well, at least he's coming around now. We don't have as good of LBs. But I think with the speed at LB we can at least make a little noise.

They switched to the 3 man front at the end of the 1st or beginning of the 3rd quarter, as soon as we got up 21-3, and then never switched back except for goal line and short yardage. I will watch the game again to confirm my memory on this.

Bad Intentions
09-23-2008, 10:56 AM
They switched to the 3 man front at the end of the 1st or beginning of the 3rd quarter, as soon as we got up 21-3, and then never switched back except for goal line and short yardage. I will watch the game again to confirm my memory on this.

And that makes sense. They threw the ball 50 times. Guessing, there were probably 40 pass attempts from that point forward.

underrated29
09-23-2008, 10:57 AM
Its not the 3-4 that i have problems with. Its the type of plays we called within it. We called a butt load of zone. I FREAKING HATE ZONE!!!! To me it is like prevent defense. You dont win by saying ok, they might make the pass, but we should be able to stop them before they can get the first down. NO!!!

You pressure the qb, (which we cant do). More importantly you man up! You give their WR no room for anything. Champ and DRE lock their guys up man to man. They get Saftey help (should play closer to DB, then so far back.) and and the LB takes on the TE if in route. THat means that only like a couple LBs should be in a zone for crossing patters and middle passes.

I am NO DC, and i have little knowledge of what a DC should call, but seriously. Why would you want to play zone and let them make the pass and hope you can tackle them before the first down. Instead of just keeping them from catching the pass in the first place.----And maybe get a few INTs from the tight coverage.

Bad Intentions
09-23-2008, 11:32 AM
I have to admit, I expected a lot more blitzing from Slo. I figured we would look a lot like the 2005 defense...even if it did get exposed in the championship game, IT GOT US THERE! With our offense playing the way it is, a 2005 style defense would make us a 13-3 team all over again!

Bronco Yoda
09-23-2008, 11:45 AM
Again, realize that in obvious passing situations (most of the 2nd half) we were in the 3-4. In running situations we were in the traditional 4-3 set. Either way, I'm surprised that Shanny bought off on the 3-4 seeing how he would never allow Coyer to run it when we were in the same situation. I imagine that it would have been pretty effective when Coyer had Al Wilson, DJ Williams, a still effective Ian Gold and then he could've used Patrick Chukwarah as his rush OLB. Oh well, at least he's coming around now. We don't have as good of LBs. But I think with the speed at LB we can at least make a little noise.

I really liked Patrick Chukwarah. He would have been a stud in the 3-4 for us had we used him this way. Super strong, fast, high motor and versatile. Sometimes too fast in fact playing a little out of control but always moving.

Northman
09-23-2008, 11:46 AM
if that was the debut it IMO should also be the finale..

Sure it can get better, what other way could it possibly go..

HEY PAT we need a real DC someone that can find his own ass with both hands..

The experiment of not having a real, professional GM should be over also..


Yea, i dont want to see that anymore. Go back to the 4-3 and install some blitz packages that are creative. Anyone notice last night that Chargers D-cordinator didnt wait around to see if Favre picks them apart. He was bringing guys from different locations to try and confuse Bret and for most of the night it was successful. Bret still got his yards but he also made some costly mistakes. We need to bring that kind of pressure to the opposing Qb.

turftoad
09-23-2008, 11:48 AM
Yea, i dont want to see that anymore. Go back to the 4-3 and install some blitz packages that are creative. Anyone notice last night that Chargers D-cordinator didnt wait around to see if Favre picks them apart. He was bringing guys from different locations to try and confuse Bret and for most of the night it was successful. Bret still got his yards but he also made some costly mistakes. We need to bring that kind of pressure to the opposing Qb.

Yep, I agree. Let Champ and Bly earn their $$ a little bit.

Northman
09-23-2008, 11:48 AM
But I think with the speed at LB we can at least make a little noise.


When? I never saw it in the game Sunday. Slowik is not creative enough right now to even send a decent blitz so now there is one less guy on the Dline to add pressure. And since our guys in the secondary cant cover worth a crap its makes no sense to run that scheme.

Northman
09-23-2008, 11:49 AM
Its not the 3-4 that i have problems with. Its the type of plays we called within it. We called a butt load of zone. I FREAKING HATE ZONE!!!! To me it is like prevent defense. You dont win by saying ok, they might make the pass, but we should be able to stop them before they can get the first down. NO!!!

You pressure the qb, (which we cant do). More importantly you man up! You give their WR no room for anything. Champ and DRE lock their guys up man to man. They get Saftey help (should play closer to DB, then so far back.) and and the LB takes on the TE if in route. THat means that only like a couple LBs should be in a zone for crossing patters and middle passes.

I am NO DC, and i have little knowledge of what a DC should call, but seriously. Why would you want to play zone and let them make the pass and hope you can tackle them before the first down. Instead of just keeping them from catching the pass in the first place.----And maybe get a few INTs from the tight coverage.

Bingo.

Bad Intentions
09-23-2008, 12:20 PM
When? I never saw it in the game Sunday. Slowik is not creative enough right now to even send a decent blitz so now there is one less guy on the Dline to add pressure. And since our guys in the secondary cant cover worth a crap its makes no sense to run that scheme.

No I agree that we didn't send enough pressure with the 3-4. Do you contend that Boss Bailey and DJ Williams are not fast players?

Bad Intentions
09-23-2008, 12:50 PM
DJ Williams 4.5 (http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=58838&draftyear=2004&genpos=OLB)

Boss Bailey 4.35 and a 44.5" vert (http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFLDraft/Draft+Insider/2003/ProDays040103.htm)

Jamie Winborn 4.6 (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/nfl/2001draft/bios/jamiewinborn.htm)

Nate Webster 4.66 (http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=60895&draftyear=2000&genpos=ILB)

Wesley Woodyard 4.5 (http://www.gridironevaluations.com/tabid/62/wesley-woodyard/1602/Default.aspx)

Elvis Dumervil 4.83 *w/injured hamstring (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2006/draft/players/47859.html)

Jarvis Moss 4.7 *coming off injury (http://broncotalk.net/2007/04/broncos-trade-up-select-jarvis-moss/)

Now look at some of the "dominating" 3-4 LBs in terms of pass rush.

Terrell Suggs 4.65 at combine and then a 4.85 at his pro day (http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=28579&draftyear=2003&genpos=DE)

Joey Porter 4.68 (http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=61093&draftyear=1999&genpos=OLB)

Adailius Thomas 4.59 *270lbs!!! (http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=60873&draftyear=2000&genpos=DE)

Shawn Merriman 4.68 *270lbs (http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=10961&draftyear=2005&genpos=DE)

Demarcus Ware 4.53 251lbs (http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=55196&draftyear=2005&genpos=OLB)



As you can see, speed is not an issue... Scheme is the problem. I think the Broncos would do well if Slo were to devise a good blitz scheme out of the 3-4 or 4-3. Preferably the 3-4 as you can mask your coverages a little better.

Lonestar
09-23-2008, 01:02 PM
DJ Williams 4.5 Weight: 241 (http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=58838&draftyear=2004&genpos=OLB)

Boss Bailey 4.35 and a 44.5" vert Weight: 232
(http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFLDraft/Draft+Insider/2003/ProDays040103.htm)

Jamie Winborn 4.6 Weight: 230 (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/nfl/2001draft/bios/jamiewinborn.htm)

Nate Webster 4.66 Weight: 232 (http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=60895&draftyear=2000&genpos=ILB)

Wesley Woodyard 4.5 Weight: 230 (http://www.gridironevaluations.com/tabid/62/wesley-woodyard/1602/Default.aspx)

Elvis Dumervil 4.83 Weight: 260 *w/injured hamstring (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2006/draft/players/47859.html)

Jarvis Moss 4.7 Weight: 265 *coming off injury (http://broncotalk.net/2007/04/broncos-trade-up-select-jarvis-moss/)

Now look at some of the "dominating" 3-4 LBs in terms of pass rush.

Terrell Suggs 4.65 at combine and then a 4.85 at his pro day (http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=28579&draftyear=2003&genpos=DE) Weight: 257

Joey Porter 4.68 (http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=61093&draftyear=1999&genpos=OLB) Weight: 241

Adailius Thomas 4.59 *270lbs!!! (http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=60873&draftyear=2000&genpos=DE)

Shawn Merriman 4.68 *270lbs (http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=10961&draftyear=2005&genpos=DE)

Demarcus Ware 4.53 251lbs (http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=55196&draftyear=2005&genpos=OLB)



As you can see, speed is not an issue... Scheme is the problem. I think the Broncos would do well if Slo were to devise a good blitz scheme out of the 3-4 or 4-3. Preferably the 3-4 as you can mask your coverages a little better.



I updated your stats with weights of our players and if any of you really believe the moss weighs 265, I have some ocean Front/view land just east of El Paso for sale..


We flat do not have the size nor speed front our front seven regardless of the configuration of who is on the field when.. Moss and Dumervil might almost be big enough to play OLB in the 3-4 but then your taking DJ one of the best athletes either off the field or playing him inside..

Mike needs to stop the half assed guessing or making stuff up on the fly and make some trades if he has to.. Scour the FA that are out there find some bodies to make this work OR plan on scoring 45 plus each week and hope we do not lose any Defensive players to fatigue..

Northman
09-23-2008, 01:04 PM
No I agree that we didn't send enough pressure with the 3-4. Do you contend that Boss Bailey and DJ Williams are not fast players?

Not at all, but if Slowik isnt going to utilize their speed than there really is no reason to stay in that formation. If we are going to use the 3-4 then he really needs to get creative with the pressure rather than sit back in zone.

Dortoh
09-23-2008, 01:09 PM
This is really an indictment of our front four.

Could have closed the thread right there.

Some will call it a 3-4 I call it the bend and break.

Beantown Bronco
09-23-2008, 01:15 PM
I have to admit, I expected a lot more blitzing from Slo. I figured we would look a lot like the 2005 defense...even if it did get exposed in the championship game, IT GOT US THERE! With our offense playing the way it is, a 2005 style defense would make us a 13-3 team all over again!

The only explanation I can come up with is this: they are planning on doing just this, but want to wait as long as possible before implementing it, because, as was shown in 2005, teams eventually figured it out because we started doing it so early in the year. The longer we wait to come up with "creative" defenses, the tougher it will be on other teams to come up with their adjustments. And if we can win games now without doing it, they may as well wait a little longer, especially given the relatively weak schedule we have coming up.

Wait until at least the bye week before unleashing the new "orange crush".

:defense::salute:

Lonestar
09-23-2008, 01:23 PM
Could have closed the thread right there.

Some will call it a 3-4 I call it the bend and break.



Try bend over and break it off..

Lonestar
09-23-2008, 01:32 PM
The only explanation I can come up with is this: they are planning on doing just this, but want to wait as long as possible before implementing it, because, as was shown in 2005, teams eventually figured it out because we started doing it so early in the year. The longer we wait to come up with "creative" defenses, the tougher it will be on other teams to come up with their adjustments. And if we can win games now without doing it, they may as well wait a little longer, especially given the relatively weak schedule we have coming up.

Wait until at least the bye week before unleashing the new "orange crush".

:defense::salute:


unless we are inventing a new wheel it will take a Good OC a week r less to figure out a way to beat it..

There is very little in football that is truly "NEW" they have been playing this game for a long time and the best of the best minds in football today learned all they knew at the time from the Paul Browns, Vince Lombardi's and then to Bill Walsh whom Mikey sat at his feet for years..

They guys can find a way to beat the best schemes IF they have the personnel to do it with.. if they do not they use smoke and mirrors till they get them it took mikey how many years to find another John Type now we are clicking on O again..

Good DC find ways to slow it down enough to allow the offense to make mistakes and beat themselves..

What we do not have is:

A good DC
A good DLine coach
good to great DLine players
a good MLB
a good safety let alone two..


We seem to have a great WLB and an OK SLB and great CB two truly great players out of 11

Bad Intentions
09-23-2008, 04:29 PM
I updated your stats with weights of our players and if any of you really believe the moss weighs 265, I have some ocean Front/view land just east of El Paso for sale..


We flat do not have the size nor speed front our front seven regardless of the configuration of who is on the field when.. Moss and Dumervil might almost be big enough to play OLB in the 3-4 but then your taking DJ one of the best athletes either off the field or playing him inside..

Mike needs to stop the half assed guessing or making stuff up on the fly and make some trades if he has to.. Scour the FA that are out there find some bodies to make this work OR plan on scoring 45 plus each week and hope we do not lose any Defensive players to fatigue..

Why would you take DJ Williams off the field. Considering that he is 6'1 and 241 lbs and Demarcus Ware is 6'4 and 250 lbs, DJ is just as "big". Joey Porter was DOMINANT as a 3-4 rush end and he's both smaller and slower than DJ.

I agree that Jarvis is closer to 240 than 265, but he's fairly quick which would actually help him playing off the line and allowing him to use his speed/quickness instead of the BS 4-point stance bull rush crap he's doing right now.

The biggest problem that we have right now and it goes back to "what we like to do around here" is that Shanny requires a system that plays the run and reacts to the pass. He's been that way for the last several years and we've always seen defenses that struggle to put pressure on the QB. Trevor Pryce called him out for it. Larry Coyer left b/c of it. RAY RHODES went to Seattle and proceeded to give them a top 10 defense. This has a lot to do with Mike Shanahan. Given a green light, I think Slo would blitz like crazy. IMO, there is a bunch of BS spouted in Dove Valley all the time. I think they probably BS'd Boss Bailey into Denver telling him they were going to use him in a number of different ways. Anybody seen this yet? Anybody witness Denver utilizing his strengths? Has he blitzed once yet?

Elvis is good on the line but he would have to be a 3-4 OLB. Same with Moss. So that leaves you with Crowder and Ekuban to play DE in the 3-4. Perhaps Engleberger though he is undersized as well. But the thing that really gets me, the Broncos want to run the 3-4 b/c they want to get Winborn on the field. That kind of takes somebody out of the mix such as Elvis, Moss, DJ, Boss, or Nate. Can't take Nate off without moving DJ back inside. I don't like the idea at this point unless we get Moss or Doom on the edge.

Superchop 7
09-23-2008, 05:52 PM
It was Bush vs our linebackers.

so what do we do ?

open up the lanes.