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BroncoWave
01-31-2011, 01:30 AM
Normally I could give less than a shit what Mel Kiper says but I'm really curious to see if he's budged at all on his analysis of the Tebow pick. IIRC he gave us an F for our draft last year. Just curious if he's reconsidered.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft2011/insider/news/story?id=6067842&action=upsell&appRedirect=http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft2011/insider/news/story%3fid%3d6067842

honz
01-31-2011, 01:47 AM
http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn156/ammccray/Picture8-1.png

SR
01-31-2011, 09:51 AM
I usually pay attention to Kiper when Schefter says something I don't like, but more often than not, Kiper and Mayock are both idiots.

rcsodak
01-31-2011, 10:34 AM
I usually pay attention to Kiper when Schefter says something I don't like, but more often than not, Kiper and Mayock are both idiots.

I see that fresh SD air is doing you some good! :D

SR
01-31-2011, 11:19 AM
I learned that in TX.

The SD air is too cold to breath right now. It hurts my airway and lungs.

Thnikkaman
01-31-2011, 12:31 PM
I usually pay attention to Kiper when Schefter says something I don't like, but more often than not, Kiper and Mayock are both idiots.

Keiper is a fraud. He is in that whole Athletes getting paid racket with the crooked agents.

cardoso
01-31-2011, 02:32 PM
I love Tebow but the last 2 drafts for us have been nothing but failures. We passed up some good guys

rationalfan
01-31-2011, 03:30 PM
Keiper is a fraud. He is in that whole Athletes getting paid racket with the crooked agents.

kiper is living the dream so many message board hacks (no offense to anyone, in particular) fantasize about; he's a fan who turned his passion into a paid profession and minor celebrity.

in some ways, making fun of him is making fun of every football fan who constructs his own mock draft.

Cugel
01-31-2011, 03:45 PM
There's nothing wrong with Mel Kiper. Fans totally don't understand where he's coming from and think he's just another guy like them who reads a few scouting magazines and blabs on the radio.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Kiper may watch tape on prospects but he's not out there voicing HIS OWN opinions, because he's NOT an NFL GM!

What he does instead is talk to scouts and draft experts and NFL teams. He then spouts THEIR ideas as if they were his own.

So, if he rips Tim Tebow, that's because lots of NFL scouts & personnel guys are telling him "we're not sold on this guy as a franchise QB."

If you don't like it, well, tough. That's a pretty widespread opinion around the league right now: "Tebow MIGHT do it but he's very raw and will need a LOT of work." :coffee:

Hence Kiper might say: "Da'Quan Bowers is the best player in the draft." Now is that Kiper's opinion? Perhaps, but what's it based on?

He's reflecting what people are telling him. That's all. If the scouts and NFL player personnel people are telling him that "this guy is the real deal" that's what he's going to say.

In order to protect himself he has to try and prevent them from hyping him, but if he talks to enough people he'll get a pretty accurate picture of who is considered at the top of the draft class.

Notice that the top 10 tends to have few surprises? A player might go at #3 rather than #6 or #8 or Al Davis might have a total brain fart, or the Titans owner might have an Aneurysm and insist on taking Vince Young #1 overall. But, normally things go pretty much the way it's scripted.

That's because the top players are scouted so heavily that everybody knows what everybody else thinks about these guys.

The 2nd round? Not so much. But, the top 10? That's not too hard to predict and Kiper generally does a good job. :coffee:

Cugel
01-31-2011, 03:52 PM
One more point about Kiper: He's NOT going to go out on a limb too many times either to praise or condemn a player. That's dangerous to his reputation. He's certainly made some WHOPPERS in the past, but they tended to be thinking some guy was going to be great but he turned out to be a bust.

But, in those cases, he wasn't the ONLY ONE! A bunch of NFL GMs who do this talent evaluating for a living blew the call too and made Carlos Rodgers or Mike Williams or David Terrell consensus top 10 picks and let Brandon Marshall fall to the 4th round, and Vincent Jackson to the 2nd.

HORSEPOWER 56
01-31-2011, 04:57 PM
There's nothing wrong with Mel Kiper. Fans totally don't understand where he's coming from and think he's just another guy like them who reads a few scouting magazines and blabs on the radio.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Kiper may watch tape on prospects but he's not out there voicing HIS OWN opinions, because he's NOT an NFL GM!

What he does instead is talk to scouts and draft experts and NFL teams. He then spouts THEIR ideas as if they were his own.

So, if he rips Tim Tebow, that's because lots of NFL scouts & personnel guys are telling him "we're not sold on this guy as a franchise QB."

If you don't like it, well, tough. That's a pretty widespread opinion around the league right now: "Tebow MIGHT do it but he's very raw and will need a LOT of work." :coffee:

Hence Kiper might say: "Da'Quan Bowers is the best player in the draft." Now is that Kiper's opinion? Perhaps, but what's it based on?

He's reflecting what people are telling him. That's all. If the scouts and NFL player personnel people are telling him that "this guy is the real deal" that's what he's going to say.

In order to protect himself he has to try and prevent them from hyping him, but if he talks to enough people he'll get a pretty accurate picture of who is considered at the top of the draft class.

Notice that the top 10 tends to have few surprises? A player might go at #3 rather than #6 or #8 or Al Davis might have a total brain fart, or the Titans owner might have an Aneurysm and insist on taking Vince Young #1 overall. But, normally things go pretty much the way it's scripted.

That's because the top players are scouted so heavily that everybody knows what everybody else thinks about these guys.

The 2nd round? Not so much. But, the top 10? That's not too hard to predict and Kiper generally does a good job. :coffee:

Mel Kiper is no more qualified to make his "big board" and mock drafts than anyone else. He's a turd that just goes to prove that if you're loud enough and act like a know-it-all enough, someone will finally believe that you do. ESPN finally hired him in 1984 because he was the only one stupid enough to devote all of his time to watching college football games and ranking players (this was before the internet and mass media age) even though he knows very little about football having never played, coached, or been in the front office of any organized football team... ever.

These guys pretty much sum up this clown to a "T". Although a negative spin has been placed on this, the facts are accurate.

http://www.dickipedia.org/dick.php?title=Mel_Kiper%2C_Jr.

Personally, I'd believe half of the posters on this board's opinions (that includes yours) over Kiper's. The fact that he NEVER has to really pay the piper when he's wrong, especially when he's extremely condescending to NFL GMs and Coaches for their drafting just goes to show you how much of a shitbag he is. ANYONE CAN SIT BACK AND CRITICIZE! He's no better than the Siskel and Ebert of the Draft. Who cares...

BroncoWave
01-31-2011, 05:06 PM
]One more point about Kiper: He's NOT going to go out on a limb too many times either to praise or condemn a player. That's dangerous to his reputation.[/B] He's certainly made some WHOPPERS in the past, but they tended to be thinking some guy was going to be great but he turned out to be a bust.

But, in those cases, he wasn't the ONLY ONE! A bunch of NFL GMs who do this talent evaluating for a living blew the call too and made Carlos Rodgers or Mike Williams or David Terrell consensus top 10 picks and let Brandon Marshall fall to the 4th round, and Vincent Jackson to the 2nd.

HUH? :confused:

So was I imagining things when he proclaimed that picks like Marshall Faulk are why the Colts pick #2 every year? Or when he said he'd "see you at Mike Williams' Hall of Fame induction"? Or when he said Leaf's attitude would be an asset in the NFL? Or when he said that Tebow is not at all an NFL QB?

Yeah, Kiper NEVER goes out on a limb to praise or condemn a player. :rolleyes:

underrated29
01-31-2011, 05:42 PM
Lets not forget Jamarcus russell is better than elway thing.



BUT-

Kiper is good at scouting talent, in a way. If anyone ever looks at his boards for the next upcoming year, he has found the top guys pretty well. This holds true for the past also. It is why I use him as one of my refrences when I do my little mocks and such. However, I dont base it soley on him. Because once he has identified talent and then goes under the microscope he looses all credibility.

That is where kiper imo sucks ass. He can find the good ones and pick the top 10 out 200 very accurately. Once he gets those guys down though, and does re evaluations he.....i dont know, what he does but he then sucks balls. He gets hyped up or ego comes into play, or his hair produces some weird chemical that makes him an idiot. I am not sure.

He reminds me of the crazy mad scientist. He can scheme up a great design, but then can not put it all together.



I like mayock and charles davis the best. Like everyone, including us, they are wrong a lot too, but then so are NFl teams and gms and scouts, but i think they do the best job of judging talent.

Northman
01-31-2011, 05:50 PM
There's nothing wrong with Mel Kiper. Fans totally don't understand where he's coming from and think he's just another guy like them who reads a few scouting magazines and blabs on the radio.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Kiper may watch tape on prospects but he's not out there voicing HIS OWN opinions, because he's NOT an NFL GM!

What he does instead is talk to scouts and draft experts and NFL teams. He then spouts THEIR ideas as if they were his own.

So, if he rips Tim Tebow, that's because lots of NFL scouts & personnel guys are telling him "we're not sold on this guy as a franchise QB."

If you don't like it, well, tough. That's a pretty widespread opinion around the league right now: "Tebow MIGHT do it but he's very raw and will need a LOT of work." :coffee:

Hence Kiper might say: "Da'Quan Bowers is the best player in the draft." Now is that Kiper's opinion? Perhaps, but what's it based on?

He's reflecting what people are telling him. That's all. If the scouts and NFL player personnel people are telling him that "this guy is the real deal" that's what he's going to say.

In order to protect himself he has to try and prevent them from hyping him, but if he talks to enough people he'll get a pretty accurate picture of who is considered at the top of the draft class.

Notice that the top 10 tends to have few surprises? A player might go at #3 rather than #6 or #8 or Al Davis might have a total brain fart, or the Titans owner might have an Aneurysm and insist on taking Vince Young #1 overall. But, normally things go pretty much the way it's scripted.

That's because the top players are scouted so heavily that everybody knows what everybody else thinks about these guys.

The 2nd round? Not so much. But, the top 10? That's not too hard to predict and Kiper generally does a good job. :coffee:


Meh, i always take what any of those yahoo's say with a grain of salt. But from what i understand back in the day Kiper was the man because he just about the only one to actually do any scouting reports of players coming into the draft. But he rode that coattail and is still riding it. My problem with Kiper is that once he gets a bias against a player he will try and hammer that point home when there really is no need too. Or if said player actually performs well he is not man enough to admit he was wrong. But he is far from the only guy to be like that so i cant totally hold it against him only.

I Eat Staples
01-31-2011, 05:51 PM
HUH? :confused:

So was I imagining things when he proclaimed that picks like Marshall Faulk are why the Colts pick #2 every year? Or when he said he'd "see you at Mike Williams' Hall of Fame induction"? Or when he said Leaf's attitude would be an asset in the NFL? Or when he said that Tebow is not at all an NFL QB?

Yeah, Kiper NEVER goes out on a limb to praise or condemn a player. :rolleyes:

All of those (with the possible exception of Faulk, I have no knowledge of that one) were consensus opinions. He wasn't going out on a limb, he was just saying what everyone thought.

He was obviously wrong on all of those except Tebow (which is yet to be determined) but so was almost everyone else.

Northman
01-31-2011, 05:52 PM
Lets not forget Jamarcus russell is better than elway thing.






Did he actually say that?

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Dude, i knew JaMarshmellow would suck even before he got to the NFL. How did Kiper miss it? :lol::lol::lol::lol:

hotcarl
01-31-2011, 06:47 PM
in some ways, making fun of him is making fun of every football fan who constructs his own mock draft.

lol at anyone who does this and is more than 9 years old

SR
01-31-2011, 07:31 PM
Mayock is a bigger chode than Kiper. How anyone likes either of them is beyond me.

gobroncsnv
02-01-2011, 01:28 AM
Would like to hear what Kiper said about Mandarich, Bosworth, Marinovich, Jeff George, etc, etc, etc. And for that matter, Gallery... None of these panned out really well. Gallery is still playing, but a guard, and was signed for "Blind Side" money... (with the Raiders, that is just SO COOL!)
No, friends, I pretty much discount most of what Kiper says, I think Mayock is ok... but I get more inside scoop and better info from a lot of you guys on these boards come draft time. Some is passed-on hearsay, but I know many of you burn your own midnight oil for this stuff, so hat's off to those who put in the effort.

Edited after watching Kiper's ESPN bit about his 2011 mock... Has us taking Peterson... Like CB is our biggest need. I don't think he watches much football, if he thinks we should spend a #2 pick on a DB, the way our D played this year. Must just play Madden all year, and only finds value in "skill" positions.
John, Brian, do NOT listen to Kiper, now, nor ever again. We need real and consistent sacks and pressures... not rare and infrequent "coverage" sacks. That is bend and TRY not to break, painful to watch football, conceding yards, losing by field goals in the 4th quarter football.

weazel
02-01-2011, 01:08 PM
I learned that in TX.

The SD air is too cold to breath right now. It hurts my airway and lungs.

Ive only been to Texas once, and it was so friggin cold I had to wear gloves and a wool hat... I'm from Canada and never wear a wool hat up here.

SR
02-01-2011, 01:10 PM
Ive only been to Texas once, and it was so friggin cold I had to wear gloves and a wool hat... I'm from Canada and never wear a wool hat up here.

I rock ninja masks up here.

topscribe
02-01-2011, 03:03 PM
Did he actually say that?

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Dude, i knew JaMarshmellow would suck even before he got to the NFL. How did Kiper miss it? :lol::lol::lol::lol:

A LOT of people known as experts whiffed on that one.

Kiper wasn't on an island . . .

-----

hamrob
02-01-2011, 03:23 PM
Kiper is usually pretty close...in that, he calls them as everyone else seems to see them. It's not rocket science. If you go take a look at 20-30 Mocks...you start to get the hang for whose rated where.

Individuals like us...can even do our own Mocks and compare closely to Kiper. He's a talking head. I like to hear what he has to say...and then I make up my own mind. Same goes for Mayock...although I have a more respect for Mayock, because I feel he's closer to the game and actually knows more than does Kiper.

In terms of our drafts. I think McD wet the bed 2yrs ago. That was a terrible draft...trading a #1 for Smith and drafting Quinn in the 2nd to go along with Moreno and Ayers in the first was absolutely devestating! But, I loved last years draft. He went out and got the best WR in the draft (after losing Marshall) and he managed to get additional picks by trading down that allowed him to get Tebow. So, really, he used our #11 pick on both Thomas and Tebow...great work! Then, he picks up Beadles and Walton who will probably start for years to come on the Oline and rounds it out with guys like Decker, Cox and Thompson. In my book...McD got an F followed by an A in the draft department.

Even Kiper had to raise our grade from a C- to a C+ and that's without giving Tebow any credit.

I Eat Staples
02-01-2011, 04:02 PM
Kiper is usually pretty close...in that, he calls them as everyone else seems to see them. It's not rocket science. If you go take a look at 20-30 Mocks...you start to get the hang for whose rated where.

Individuals like us...can even do our own Mocks and compare closely to Kiper. He's a talking head. I like to hear what he has to say...and then I make up my own mind. Same goes for Mayock...although I have a more respect for Mayock, because I feel he's closer to the game and actually knows more than does Kiper.

In terms of our drafts. I think McD wet the bed 2yrs ago. That was a terrible draft...trading a #1 for Smith and drafting Quinn in the 2nd to go along with Moreno and Ayers in the first was absolutely devestating! But, I loved last years draft. He went out and got the best WR in the draft (after losing Marshall) and he managed to get additional picks by trading down that allowed him to get Tebow. So, really, he used our #11 pick on both Thomas and Tebow...great work! Then, he picks up Beadles and Walton who will probably start for years to come on the Oline and rounds it out with guys like Decker, Cox and Thompson. In my book...McD got an F followed by an A in the draft department.

Even Kiper had to raise our grade from a C- to a C+ and that's without giving Tebow any credit.

Thomas was the 2nd best receiver in the draft and barely even played this year. McD gave up more for Tebow than any other NFL team would have.

underrated29
02-01-2011, 04:27 PM
Thomas was the 2nd best receiver in the draft and barely even played this year. McD gave up more for Tebow than any other NFL team would have.



He was playing with house money though.

rcsodak
02-01-2011, 04:33 PM
There's nothing wrong with Mel Kiper. Fans totally don't understand where he's coming from and think he's just another guy like them who reads a few scouting magazines and blabs on the radio.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Kiper may watch tape on prospects but he's not out there voicing HIS OWN opinions, because he's NOT an NFL GM!

What he does instead is talk to scouts and draft experts and NFL teams. He then spouts THEIR ideas as if they were his own.

So, if he rips Tim Tebow, that's because lots of NFL scouts & personnel guys are telling him "we're not sold on this guy as a franchise QB."

If you don't like it, well, tough. That's a pretty widespread opinion around the league right now: "Tebow MIGHT do it but he's very raw and will need a LOT of work." :coffee:

Hence Kiper might say: "Da'Quan Bowers is the best player in the draft." Now is that Kiper's opinion? Perhaps, but what's it based on?

He's reflecting what people are telling him. That's all. If the scouts and NFL player personnel people are telling him that "this guy is the real deal" that's what he's going to say.

In order to protect himself he has to try and prevent them from hyping him, but if he talks to enough people he'll get a pretty accurate picture of who is considered at the top of the draft class.

Notice that the top 10 tends to have few surprises? A player might go at #3 rather than #6 or #8 or Al Davis might have a total brain fart, or the Titans owner might have an Aneurysm and insist on taking Vince Young #1 overall. But, normally things go pretty much the way it's scripted.

That's because the top players are scouted so heavily that everybody knows what everybody else thinks about these guys.

The 2nd round? Not so much. But, the top 10? That's not too hard to predict and Kiper generally does a good job. :coffee:
Lol
So if the top players are so cut n dried, shouldn't he be almost perfect? And if that's the case, and he's just regurgitating the words of others:
1. How's that make him special?
2. Why is he so far off rds 2+?
Its obvious you are a kiper fan, but stating he is only as good as what he hears, well....doesn't say much for him/his job/his accuracy.
I've always heard him speaking in 1st person on his picks, so this is quite a revelation.
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Lonestar
02-01-2011, 04:37 PM
Kiper is usually pretty close...in that, he calls them as everyone else seems to see them. It's not rocket science. If you go take a look at 20-30 Mocks...you start to get the hang for whose rated where. Individuals like us...can even do our own Mocks and compare closely to Kiper. He's a talking head. I like to hear what he has to say...and then I make up my own mind. Same goes for Mayock...although I have a more respect for Mayock, because I feel he's closer to the game and actually knows more than does Kiper. In terms of our drafts. I think McD wet the bed 2yrs ago. That was a terrible draft...trading a #1 for Smith and drafting Quinn in the 2nd to go along with Moreno and Ayers in the first was absolutely devestating! But, I loved last years draft. He went out and got the best WR in the draft (after losing Marshall) and he managed to get additional picks by trading down that allowed him to get Tebow. So, really, he used our #11 pick on both Thomas and Tebow...great work! Then, he picks up Beadles and Walton who will probably start for years to come on the Oline and rounds it out with guys like Decker, Cox and Thompson. In my book...McD got an F followed by an A in the draft department
Even Kiper had to raise our grade from a C- to a C+ and that's without giving Tebow any credit.

Actually the smith pick might have Panned out if we had a really pass rush. So I was not all the concerned about that. Quinn not sure how that will turn out. Could be a bust or a real winer.

But given the circumstances of the draft he was entitled to one whiff considering the number of wiffs mickey had over the years.
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rcsodak
02-01-2011, 04:44 PM
Thomas was the 2nd best receiver in the draft and barely even played this year. McD gave up more for Tebow than any other NFL team would have.
Pure conjecture on your or anyone's part, on the value of TT. We'lll never know...

What picks were given up? I honestly can't remember.
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TXBRONC
02-01-2011, 04:49 PM
Pure conjecture on your or anyone's part, on the value of TT. We'lll never know...

What picks were given up? I honestly can't remember.
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No it's not conjecture it's fact. McDaniels gave up a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th pick to move up to take Tebow IIRC.

Lonestar
02-01-2011, 04:53 PM
Pure conjecture on your or anyone's part, on the value of TT. We'lll never know...

What picks were given up? I honestly can't remember.
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Iirc none of them were ours, everyone elses picks.

People bit h that we had so many rookies last year, can you imagine 3 more.
Iirc we has like 11 already.
Or with less vets on D.

Josh was damned if he did or damned if he did not.
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underrated29
02-01-2011, 04:55 PM
Iirc none of them were ours, everyone elses picks.

People bit h that we had so many rookies last year, can you imagine 3 more.
Iirc we has like 11 already.
Or with less vets on D.

Josh was damned if he did or damned if he did not.
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He was playing with house money. IE- first sentence of JRs post above.

TXBRONC
02-01-2011, 05:04 PM
He was playing with house money. IE- first sentence of JRs post above.

If he was playing with house money then he wouldn't have had to give anything to procure those picks.

I Eat Staples
02-01-2011, 07:37 PM
It doesn't matter how the picks were acquired. They were ours at the time he traded them. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

If someone gives you $100 and you go and spend it all on an item valued at $50, it wasn't a smart purchase just because you were given the money. It was yours at the time you over payed.

SR
02-01-2011, 08:16 PM
He was playing with house money. IE- first sentence of JRs post above.

Lonestar = jr? I must be way behind.

rcsodak
02-01-2011, 09:14 PM
Lonestar = jr? I must be way behind.
Lmao......yes. You are a behind. :grin:
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rcsodak
02-01-2011, 09:17 PM
It doesn't matter how the picks were acquired. They were ours at the time he traded them. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

If someone gives you $100 and you go and spend it all on an item valued at $50, it wasn't a smart purchase just because you were given the money. It was yours at the time you over payed.
Again, its conjecture on the worth.
Just because something is worth more to one than another, doesn't necessarily make it worth less.
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