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Northman
09-21-2008, 04:43 PM
Why in the hell is Shanahan allowing his D-cordinator to only have a 3 man rush with 6 minutes left of the first half? I know our defense is bad but to take away any kind of pass rush and allow the opposing Qb to pick us apart all day long is logical in his mind? Seriously, whats the thought process here?

LRtagger
09-21-2008, 04:45 PM
It is one of the great mysteries of the world.

spikerman
09-21-2008, 04:47 PM
I think we're seeing why Slowik has been shown the door in a relatively short amount of time at his other coordinating gigs. I clipped a toenail the other day that understood defensive strategies better than this guy. :mad:

Den21vsBal19
09-21-2008, 04:51 PM
It is one of the great mysteries of the world.
And has been for a long, long time :frusty:

MOtorboat
09-21-2008, 05:01 PM
He's doing it because he knows the Saints can't run very well...on the flip side, they still can't get pressure.

weazel
09-21-2008, 05:02 PM
Why in the hell is Shanahan allowing his D-cordinator to only have a 3 man rush with 6 minutes left of the first half? I know our defense is bad but to take away any kind of pass rush and allow the opposing Qb to pick us apart all day long is logical in his mind? Seriously, whats the thought process here?

what happened to your orange tinted glasses? When I complained about the D you whined that I was negative. :welcome: to reality

Northman
09-21-2008, 05:06 PM
what happened to your orange tinted glasses? When I complained about the D you whined that I was negative. :welcome: to reality

Uh, not true. You were making snide remarks about a 3rd year Qb making the same mistakes as a 10 year vet. Ive known for quite a while that our defense has problems. But to go into a 3 man rush when we hardly get pressure with 4 is just idiotic on any level. And for our Head Coach to accept that scheme after being up 21-3 is just baffling to me.

Tned
09-21-2008, 06:41 PM
Why in the hell is Shanahan allowing his D-cordinator to only have a 3 man rush with 6 minutes left of the first half? I know our defense is bad but to take away any kind of pass rush and allow the opposing Qb to pick us apart all day long is logical in his mind? Seriously, whats the thought process here?

I was trying to figure that one out myself. I know they had been doing that on 3rd and long, and that seemed questionable, but to start doing it on every play...

Lonestar
09-21-2008, 06:53 PM
Why in the hell is Shanahan allowing his D-cordinator to only have a 3 man rush with 6 minutes left of the first half? I know our defense is bad but to take away any kind of pass rush and allow the opposing QB to pick us apart all day long is logical in his mind? Seriously, whats the thought process here?

he is allowing himself enough rope to hang himself..

Remember he needs solid scapegoat for the EOY lynching..

fcspikeit
09-21-2008, 07:03 PM
Why in the hell is Shanahan allowing his D-cordinator to only have a 3 man rush with 6 minutes left of the first half? I know our defense is bad but to take away any kind of pass rush and allow the opposing Qb to pick us apart all day long is logical in his mind? Seriously, whats the thought process here?


Maybe it's our version of the 3-4? :confused:

Our problems are not all coaching,, Our D needs to go back to pewee ball and learn about containing the outside, on the pitch/swing runs.

They stand back and hold their ground at the first down every time! There is no penetration.. They need to fight for position and attack up field. Try to get at the runner while he is moving parallel instead of letting him get vertical every freaking play!

Lonestar
09-21-2008, 07:04 PM
Maybe it's our version of the 3-4? :confused:

Our problems are not all coaching,, Our D needs to go back to pewee ball and learn about containing the outside, on the pitch/swing runs.

They stand back and hold their ground at the first down every time! There is no penetration.. They need to fight for position and attack up field. Try to get at the runner while he is moving parallel instead of letting him get vertical every freaking play!

no it is the 3-8 used extensievely against great QB's..

Tned
09-21-2008, 07:21 PM
he is allowing himself enough rope to hang himself..

Remember he needs solid scapegoat for the EOY lynching..

137-74 NE
136-74 GB
133-78 Den

Best records in the NFL since Shanahan has been coach, he doesn't look for scapegoats, he wins like few other coaches in NFL history. Does it require retooling at times? Yes. He has retooled the offense and has the makings of a great offense, and now he needs to retool the defense.

Northman
09-21-2008, 07:25 PM
Maybe it's our version of the 3-4? :confused:

Our problems are not all coaching,, Our D needs to go back to pewee ball and learn about containing the outside, on the pitch/swing runs.

They stand back and hold their ground at the first down every time! There is no penetration.. They need to fight for position and attack up field. Try to get at the runner while he is moving parallel instead of letting him get vertical every freaking play!

Even if we attempted the 3-4 we dont have the linebacking corp to do that. That would also mean random LB blitzes from every aspect which doesnt happen. So in our case, its strictly a 3 man rush to try and put more bodies to cover. But our pass coverage is so bad that doing something like (especially early in the game) makes absolutely no sense.

Tned
09-21-2008, 07:29 PM
Even if we attempted the 3-4 we dont have the linebacking corp to do that. That would also mean random LB blitzes from every aspect which doesnt happen. So in our case, its strictly a 3 man rush to try and put more bodies to cover. But our pass coverage is so bad that doing something like (especially early in the game) makes absolutely no sense.

It would take a year or two to retool and have an effective 3-4. If we were a a 2-14 team, we could consider switching during a several year rebuilding period. When you are a .500 team like the last couple years, you are only a couple wins from getting into the playoffs, and you simply can't make that major a change in your defense, even if you want to.

jrelway
09-21-2008, 07:29 PM
if we switched to a 3-4 with the players we have now, RB's would have 200 plus yards against us.

G_Money
09-21-2008, 07:33 PM
137-74 NE
136-74 GB
133-78 Den

Best records in the NFL since Shanahan has been coach, he doesn't look for scapegoats, he wins like few other coaches in NFL history. Does it require retooling at times? Yes. He has retooled the offense and has the makings of a great offense, and now he needs to retool the defense.

I hope Shanahan can use his new-found prowess in draft talent evaluation in the related field of defensive-wizard evaluation. :beer:

Also, Special-teams-wizard evaluation would be handy.

It's not scapegoating if it really is Slowik's fault that the D is playing like a bunch of lobotomized farm animals.

But since Shanahan adds the DCs every year that wind up sucking, I'd like the next one to be an improvement please.

I don't need a GREAT DC - but a good one would get us so very far with this offense.

Find me one of those please. SOON.

~G

BroncoWave
09-21-2008, 07:35 PM
137-74 NE
136-74 GB
133-78 Den

Best records in the NFL since Shanahan has been coach, he doesn't look for scapegoats, he wins like few other coaches in NFL history. Does it require retooling at times? Yes. He has retooled the offense and has the makings of a great offense, and now he needs to retool the defense.

But then JR would lose HIS scapegoat! :D

Tned
09-21-2008, 07:42 PM
I hope Shanahan can use his new-found prowess in draft talent evaluation in the related field of defensive-wizard evaluation. :beer:

Also, Special-teams-wizard evaluation would be handy.

It's not scapegoating if it really is Slowik's fault that the D is playing like a bunch of lobotomized farm animals.

But since Shanahan adds the DCs every year that wind up sucking, I'd like the next one to be an improvement please.

I don't need a GREAT DC - but a good one would get us so very far with this offense.

Find me one of those please. SOON.

~G

I was responding to the insinuation that Shanahan is intentionally letting Slowik screw things up, so that he will have a scapegoat at the end of the year.

Lonestar
09-21-2008, 07:42 PM
137-74 NE
136-74 GB
133-78 Den

Best records in the NFL since Shanahan has been coach, he doesn't look for scapegoats, he wins like few other coaches in NFL history. Does it require retooling at times? Yes. He has retooled the offense and has the makings of a great offense, and now he needs to retool the defense.

yes he has a great record but NE did not have belicheat till a couple of years later.. I think his numbers are even better than mikey..

Look Love the guy all you want..

I just like to think if we had a real GM to make better choices over the years on players and coordinators we would have been even better..

I'd rather have a real pro come in and retool the D.. But what the hell mikey will never allow it to happen so it has to come from Pat before it will..

Mike
09-21-2008, 07:44 PM
yes he has a great record but NE did not have belicheat till a couple of years later.. I think his numbers are even better than mikey..

Look Love the guy all you want..

I just like to think if we had a real GM to make better choices over the years on players and coordinators we would have been even better..

I'd rather have a real pro come in and retool the D.. But what the hell mikey will never allow it to happen so it has to come from Pat before it will..

That's one coach, JR. How many have worse numbers that Shanahan?

Lonestar
09-21-2008, 07:47 PM
I was responding to the insinuation that Shanahan is intentionally letting Slowik screw things up, so that he will have a scapegoat at the end of the year.


If you got that out of my posts then you have been reading them wrong..

mikey does not IMO want another super star coach to bask in the glory..

he needs it all himself he could have had almost any great DC in here to work with him.. but has he? no he needs total control.. and he would lose it having truly great DC in here to team with him..

Until we get a great GM that is in charge of personnel or Pat steps in to force his hand we will have average at best D forever..

Lonestar
09-21-2008, 07:49 PM
That's one coach, JR. How many have worse numbers that Shanahan?


everyone

now all bow down and praise the almighty mikey..

Mike
09-21-2008, 07:50 PM
everyone

now all bow down and praise the almighty mikey..

Yowsah. :tsk:

Having one of the top 5 coaches in the last 15 years doesn't satisfy you...I'd hate to see what you'd be like if you were a Roider or Lion fan. ;)

G_Money
09-21-2008, 07:52 PM
I was responding to the insinuation that Shanahan is intentionally letting Slowik screw things up, so that he will have a scapegoat at the end of the year.

Ah. In that case then I agree with you that no, Shanny doesn't intentionally need to fire a guy to save himself from scrutiny. Heimerdinger was a horrible fit here, but Tennessee doesn't mind having him right now do they? He just couldn't coach HERE, and Shanny fixed it.

DC is a different position, and most of the guys he has fired - save probably Coyer - deserved it. Shanahan at the reins of the offense instead of Dinger is really helping us out. Shanny drafting offensive players in 2 of the last 3 drafts is also becoming a strong bonus - thank you, Goodmans.

But he's never found a DC he liked after Robinson, and the annual firing squad for the defensive scheme makes it really hard for us to improve. He really should ask his good friend Fisher for advice on the next guy. Jeff's never steered him wrong yet. And if Defense is the one thing Shanny just can't get right, then he might as well ask his defensive-minded buddy to help with that blind spot.

Though hey, maybe Slowik just needs more time. :coffee: 3-0 buys him some more, anyway.

~G

Broncolingus
09-21-2008, 07:52 PM
Why in the hell is Shanahan allowing his D-cordinator to only have a 3 man rush with 6 minutes left of the first half? I know our defense is bad but to take away any kind of pass rush and allow the opposing Qb to pick us apart all day long is logical in his mind? Seriously, whats the thought process here?

...actually, the LBs and DBs are okay, is the defensive line that's the problem.

I believe the logic is actually sound...

Since Denver's down-four can't put pressure on the QB to save their lives (or jobs), and since a team cant blitz EVERY friggin down, the only logical choice is to go to drop that 'extra' LB (in leiu of the true DL) back and hope for a stop that way.

Tned
09-21-2008, 07:59 PM
Ah. In that case then I agree with you that no, Shanny doesn't intentionally need to fire a guy to save himself from scrutiny. Heimerdinger was a horrible fit here, but Tennessee doesn't mind having him right now do they? He just couldn't coach HERE, and Shanny fixed it.

DC is a different position, and most of the guys he has fired - save probably Coyer - deserved it. Shanahan at the reins of the offense instead of Dinger is really helping us out. Shanny drafting offensive players in 2 of the last 3 drafts is also becoming a strong bonus - thank you, Goodmans.

But he's never found a DC he liked after Robinson, and the annual firing squad for the defensive scheme makes it really hard for us to improve. He really should ask his good friend Fisher for advice on the next guy. Jeff's never steered him wrong yet. And if Defense is the one thing Shanny just can't get right, then he might as well ask his defensive-minded buddy to help with that blind spot.

Though hey, maybe Slowik just needs more time. :coffee: 3-0 buys him some more, anyway.

~G

Does anyone know what the deal is with Coyer? Shanny has said numerous times that he didn't leave the team for football reasons, and that Shanny thought he did a great job as DC.

Lonestar
09-21-2008, 08:00 PM
Yowsah. :tsk:

Having one of the top 5 coaches in the last 15 years doesn't satisfy you...I'd hate to see what you'd be like if you were a Roider or Lion fan. ;)

what I can't understand is why anyone can't see if the defense were solid he would have won more..

I also can't comprehend why everyone is willing to put up with the uber lousy DAFTING job mikey did between 2000-2006 and frankly the ones before that save LB and late round OLINE types where not all that whippy either..

maybe your OK with just winning at 60% I want to win them all..

And with the fans, owner, facillity why can't we..

it all boils down to mikey not allowing great talent in the coaching ranks beyond himself.. IMHO

56crash
09-21-2008, 08:02 PM
Why in the hell is Shanahan allowing his D-cordinator to only have a 3 man rush with 6 minutes left of the first half? I know our defense is bad but to take away any kind of pass rush and allow the opposing Qb to pick us apart all day long is logical in his mind? Seriously, whats the thought process here?

we have no blizt package a 8th grade coach could draw up better Blitzs

hamrob
09-21-2008, 08:03 PM
Don't blame it on Slowik. The biggest problem is the decision to draft two pint sized DE's in the form of Doom and Moss. What a joke? Any team that has Engleberger starting for them has got to be the laughing stock of the NFL.

Broncolingus
09-21-2008, 08:04 PM
Don't blame it on Slowik. The biggest problem is the decision to draft two pint sized DE's in the form of Doom and Moss. What a joke? Any team that has Engleberger starting for them has got to be the laughing stock of the NFL.

AMEN, BROTHER!!!!

You got it EXACTLY right!!!!

56crash
09-21-2008, 08:06 PM
Greg Robertson is about to get canned we should bring him back .

Tned
09-21-2008, 08:07 PM
what I can't understand is why anyone can't see if the defense were solid he would have won more..

I also can't comprehend why everyone is willing to put up with the uber lousy DAFTING job mikey did between 2000-2006 and frankly the ones before that save LB and late round OLINE types where not all that whippy either..

maybe your OK with just winning at 60% I want to win them all..

And with the fans, owner, facillity why can't we..

it all boils down to mikey not allowing great talent in the coaching ranks beyond himself.. IMHO

What I can't understand is why people can't comprehend that the very reason the Broncos ae the third winningest team during Shanahan's tenure is because he has been able to "rebuild on the fly". In order to do that, it requires reaching more in the draft, because you don't have high draft picks, and you are trying to win 'this year' rather than future years. Sometiems those gambles pay off, some times they don't.

I'm willing to enjoy the fact that in my 20+ years of being a Broncos fan (I know less than your 40+) that in all but a few years, the Broncos have put teams on the field that can win any given Sunday. I have friends that are Cowboys fans and fans of other teams that have endured long, miserable rebuilding periods, not two years of .500 ball.

Shanahan is a high risk, high reward coach and GM. Some times the risks pay off, sometimes they don't. Luckily for us fans, they have paid off far more than they haven't.

Tned
09-21-2008, 08:10 PM
maybe your OK with just winning at 60% I want to win them all..

And with the fans, owner, facillity why can't we..

it all boils down to mikey not allowing great talent in the coaching ranks beyond himself.. IMHO

Ok, I just saw this in the post, and now I can understand why you aren't happy with the 3rd best winning percentage in the last 15 years. You are out of touch with what is the reality of the NFL. No team can win every game. :confused:

Yes, I am very happy with 63% winning percentage, since that means we are the elite of NFL franchises.

topscribe
09-21-2008, 08:10 PM
I hope Shanahan can use his new-found prowess in draft talent evaluation in the related field of defensive-wizard evaluation. :beer:

Also, Special-teams-wizard evaluation would be handy.

It's not scapegoating if it really is Slowik's fault that the D is playing like a bunch of lobotomized farm animals.

But since Shanahan adds the DCs every year that wind up sucking, I'd like the next one to be an improvement please.

I don't need a GREAT DC - but a good one would get us so very far with this offense.

Find me one of those please. SOON.

~G

Well, I hope Shanny doesn't use any of that new-found drafting prowess to select any more 245-pound defensive ends. :tsk:

-----

G_Money
09-21-2008, 08:13 PM
Jr:

For some reason Shanahan believed in Sundquist. He wanted a subordinate to handle the details of FA signings and the draft and bring some input for Shanny to make the ultimate decision. But judging the success of your draft takes a while. Talent evaluation is a place where there's lag time in making a decision to fire a guy.

I mean, for defensive scheme you can see the immediate impact on the field that season. But you can't tell Foxy and Paymah aren't our long-term corners for at least a couple of years.

We had the wrong drafting philosophy for the first few post-SB years, and once we figured that out we then moved on to just poor talent evaluation. Once Sundquist got emasculated and the Goodmans were providing more input we seem to have done a LOT better. It sucks that it takes that long to get the talent side corrected, but sometimes it does. The time-delay part of it just makes it a multi-year process by default. It's one reason why GMs on poor teams usually last longer than coaches. They can claim that this draft is the right draft and a few more years will show it, while coaches every year get their grade simultaneous to their performance.

As angry as I have been about our drafting issues, Shanny was initially good at covering them up with good coaching, at least on offense. And he was still finding linemen and RBs - QB was a sore spot but how many guys can do what Elway of Young could? You get spoiled as a coach. He learned his lessons on Griese and Plummer.

Shanny DOES learn. He doesn't always do it as fast as I want, but his offensive mind gives us a chance to win while he's figuring it out.

It just scares me that he's never figured out the DC problem. Now that he got the QB, the WRs, the TEs and apparently now the OL, all we need might be a true RB on the offense - and for all we know he's right about Torain too.

But now is the time to focus on the defense. He can't get the right coordinator and other than LBs he hasn't shown propensity for drafting that side of the ball either. Next year's draft should have several options for us to add to our talent defensively. But without the right guy to call the plays it's all for naught.

~G

Lonestar
09-21-2008, 08:17 PM
What I can't understand is why people can't comprehend that the very reason the Broncos ae the third winningest team during Shanahan's tenure is because he has been able to "rebuild on the fly". In order to do that, it requires reaching more in the draft, because you don't have high draft picks, and you are trying to win 'this year' rather than future years. Sometiems those gambles pay off, some times they don't.

I'm willing to enjoy the fact that in my 20+ years of being a Broncos fan (I know less than your 40+) that in all but a few years, the Broncos have put teams on the field that can win any given Sunday. I have friends that are Cowboys fans and fans of other teams that have endured long, miserable rebuilding periods, not two years of .500 ball.

Shanahan is a high risk, high reward coach and GM. Some times the risks pay off, sometimes they don't. Luckily for us fans, they have paid off far more than they haven't.

Believe what you wish about high risk choices I do not buy it and would rather have solid ones every so often so that we do not have to reach each and every year on day one..

Go look at how those reaches worked out for us from 1998 on till 2006. When they seemed to have changed dramatically..

Now Do not tell me it was Ted making the picks because we ALL know deep down he was not the final say on them.. If the Goodman guy is the one responsible for Jay and Beyond then I applaud mikey for being smart enough to listen to him.. But do not blame it all on Ted.. Mikey was ecstatic to proclaim how good his choices would be for all of those years.. and for the most part outside of LB on day one they were mostly all duds..


remember how many of those years at the EOY press conference you heard we were 2-3 players away from the Superbowl.. we all know that was not true now don't we..

I'm done on this matter.. so have your last say..

G_Money
09-21-2008, 08:17 PM
Does anyone know what the deal is with Coyer? Shanny has said numerous times that he didn't leave the team for football reasons, and that Shanny thought he did a great job as DC.

After his defense faded down the stretch in his final season, Shanny met with Coyer and wanted him to fire some of his staff. He wanted Coyer to stay, though, just shake up his staff.

Coyer didn't want to. He didn't feel it was their fault and in Jr's words didn't want to scapegoat them.

Shanny gave him an ultimatum.

And Coyer got himself and all his assistants dismissed rather than sacrifice some of them to save his job. He resigned rather than be forced into a move he didn't feel was right.

Coyer is an honorable man, but I curse him because it means now I have to find a guy who can do what he did - get a D that gives up yards but not points while our O racks up points AND yards.

Maybe Shanny will have him back. I could hope, right? Coyer is adequate for what we need, and HIS DL play wasn't pathetic.

~G

Lonestar
09-21-2008, 08:24 PM
After his defense faded down the stretch in his final season, Shanny met with Coyer and wanted him to fire some of his staff. He wanted Coyer to stay, though, just shake up his staff.

Coyer didn't want to. He didn't feel it was their fault and in Jr's words didn't want to scapegoat them.

Shanny gave him an ultimatum.

And Coyer got himself and all his assistants dismissed rather than sacrifice some of them to save his job. He resigned rather than be forced into a move he didn't feel was right.

Coyer is an honorable man, but I curse him because it means now I have to find a guy who can do what he did - get a D that gives up yards but not points while our O racks up points AND yards.

Maybe Shanny will have him back. I could hope, right? Coyer is adequate for what we need, and HIS DL play wasn't pathetic.

~G

actually he put out some great defenses for the upcoming games.. and for a half we generally owned them.. but after half time the defense usually blew cause they made adjustments to it and he was unable to counter without a few days to plan for it..

At least that is how I saw it..

Unable to adjust on the fly..

considering the lack of talent he had to work with.. a couple of good to great safeties, a DL or Two and usually some really fast LB's but beyond that the corners till 2004 sucked..

jrelway
09-21-2008, 08:25 PM
Coyer got canned cause he couldnt adjust at halftime. Bates got fired cause he was worse than coyer. Slowik will probably get canned cause we're worse at defense than last year.

jrelway
09-21-2008, 08:27 PM
i wonder how many years dick lebeau has left on his contract.

Tned
09-21-2008, 08:29 PM
But now is the time to focus on the defense. He can't get the right coordinator and other than LBs he hasn't shown propensity for drafting that side of the ball either. Next year's draft should have several options for us to add to our talent defensively. But without the right guy to call the plays it's all for naught.

~G

I sure hope we have a lousy high 20's (or 32nd) pick in the first round in '09, but we do have quite a few picks stock piled. Other than potentially depth at WR and OL, and possibly RB if Torrain doesn't pan out later in the year, there is no reason to believe that Defense won't be the focus of the '09 draft.

Now, whether or not we can draft the right players, like we have on offense the last few years, remains to be seen. As to the DC, I'll admit to not be enough of a student of the game to know whether our problem is mostly talent, mostly DC or a little of both.

Tned
09-21-2008, 08:34 PM
Believe what you wish about high risk choices I do not buy it and would rather have solid ones every so often so that we do not have to reach each and every year on day one..

Go look at how those reaches worked out for us from 1998 on till 2006. When they seemed to have changed dramatically..

Now Do not tell me it was Ted making the picks because we ALL know deep down he was not the final say on them.. If the Goodman guy is the one responsible for Jay and Beyond then I applaud mikey for being smart enough to listen to him.. But do not blame it all on Ted.. Mikey was ecstatic to proclaim how good his choices would be for all of those years.. and for the most part outside of LB on day one they were mostly all duds..


remember how many of those years at the EOY press conference you heard we were 2-3 players away from the Superbowl.. we all know that was not true now don't we..

I'm done on this matter.. so have your last say..


I have never blamed the drafting on Sundquist. I have always assumed that while Shanahan might take input, he made the final calls.

I simply have a different expectation as a fan. It goes back to the poll that asked would you rather have the number one pick or be 7-9, and I chose 7-9.

The Broncos bring me great enjoyment. I like the fact that in every game of every year, we have a chance. Where fans of virtually every other franchise go through multi-year periods of 2-4 win seasons where they are calling talk radio shows and saying, "I think we have a shot at getting to .500 this year, where when we have a horrible year we are .500.