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underrated29
01-17-2011, 04:03 PM
We all know that our line in the PBS did not exactly do our RB any favors. Neither did the play calling. However, we also know that the ZBS allows a little more lee way so to speak as our OL just have to block a space, not a person.

With that said. How do you think Knowshon will do in the ZBS. Will he thrive? Will he remain par? Will he get worse? (this is based on the fact that we do NOT get deangelo williams.)




Remember we had guys like Orlandis Gary, Reuben Droughns, and selvin young do really well in our zbs and put up over 1k.



I think this could really really benefit Knowshon, Yes, I know I am bias as he is my fav RB, but I think knowshon has much better vision than he is given credit for and I think that the ZBS will help him out a lot. 1300 yards and another 200 through the air-sounds about right to me.

Northman
01-17-2011, 04:07 PM
If he can stay healthy probably pretty good. But, ever since Gibbs left it really hasnt been the same.

Rick
01-17-2011, 04:08 PM
I think he will be great in it...are we going back to it though?

I had not heard that.

Agent of Orange
01-17-2011, 04:10 PM
Moreno was also part of the problem. Granted, Beadles and Walton had incredible struggles, but Moreno also didn't do much without having yards giftwrapped for him. He's not especially good in the open field either.

He's OK but nothing amazing and certainly not worth changing an offense for. If they change to the ZBS, it should be because its better for running the ball, not better for Moreno.

dogfish
01-17-2011, 04:17 PM
i think he'll be nasty in it-- for at least six games. . . .

Ziggy
01-17-2011, 04:19 PM
I think he will be great in it...are we going back to it though?

I had not heard that.

Our new OL coach is a zone blocking scheme guy, and a very good one.

silkamilkamonico
01-17-2011, 04:24 PM
WHat kind of an offense did Fox run in Carolina? They had a dominant running game but was it a ZBS?

underrated29
01-17-2011, 04:24 PM
Moreno was also part of the problem. Granted, Beadles and Walton had incredible struggles, but Moreno also didn't do much without having yards giftwrapped for him. He's not especially good in the open field either.

He's OK but nothing amazing and certainly not worth changing an offense for. If they change to the ZBS, it should be because its better for running the ball, not better for Moreno.



We are not changing to the ZBS for knowshon.



Fox runs the ZBS and he is bringing with him his OL boys. We will be returning to the ZBS because that is what Fox wants.

Montana Battlin Bear
01-17-2011, 04:25 PM
If knowshon would relax he would do great, I think the kid is trying too hard. He doesn't look smooth when he runs like he did when he was at Georgia.

Agent of Orange
01-17-2011, 04:27 PM
We are not changing to the ZBS for knowshon.



Fox runs the ZBS and he is bringing with him his OL boys. We will be returning to the ZBS because that is what Fox wants.

Thats fine. Count me in as someone who also wants to return to the ZBS. But if Denver were to draft a RB, I wouldnt be shocked if he's just as good as Moreno or better.

It should be about having a good running game more than it's about Moreno. That's all I'm saying.

dasn101
01-17-2011, 04:34 PM
Knowshon's got great balance and bounces off people well, but he's not great at running through people. I think the ZBS will benefit him a ton because agility and visions are greater assets in a ZBS. He'll get bigger holes and more defenders who are off balance when trying to make the hit. Really excited for the change!

LordTrychon
01-17-2011, 04:37 PM
The real question is what do we do with our current o-line to maximize their ability in the ZBS?

Will we be able to be effective in the redzone with it?

TXBRONC
01-17-2011, 04:39 PM
We all know that our line in the PBS did not exactly do our RB any favors. Neither did the play calling. However, we also know that the ZBS allows a little more lee way so to speak as our OL just have to block a space, not a person.

With that said. How do you think Knowshon will do in the ZBS. Will he thrive? Will he remain par? Will he get worse? (this is based on the fact that we do NOT get deangelo williams.)




Remember we had guys like Orlandis Gary, Reuben Droughns, and selvin young do really well in our zbs and put up over 1k.



I think this could really really benefit Knowshon, Yes, I know I am bias as he is my fav RB, but I think knowshon has much better vision than he is given credit for and I think that the ZBS will help him out a lot. 1300 yards and another 200 through the air-sounds about right to me.

I been saying that for awhile now. I think Moreno's would be enhanced by the use of a zone blocking scheme.

HORSEPOWER 56
01-17-2011, 04:40 PM
I've always thought Knowshon would do well in the ZBS. Typically in the PBS, there's little improvisation - you run to the assigned gap and that's it. In the ZBS there are at least 2 gaps (the play side and the cutback and the RB makes the decision which gap to hit (the whole put your foot in the ground, make one cut, and go philosophy).

Typically if you run a PBS and don't run well, it's the O-lines' fault (the designed hole isn't there). If you run ZBS and don't run it well, it's the RBs fault for failing to read and or be decisive. As long as Knowshon has even decent vision, he should do very well in the ZBS (as most RBs do).

Agent of Orange
01-17-2011, 04:41 PM
The real question is what do we do with our current o-line to maximize their ability in the ZBS?

Will we be able to be effective in the redzone with it?

Why would they not be effective in the red zone?

HORSEPOWER 56
01-17-2011, 04:43 PM
I been saying for awhile now. I think Moreno's would be enhanced by the use of a zone blocking scheme.


I'd agree wholeheartedly. Seeing as our O-line is probably better than Houston's and Moreno was a much better RB in college than Foster (they played at the same time in the same SEC), I think Moreno could be just as effective in that system if we used it here.

TXBRONC
01-17-2011, 04:45 PM
I'd agree wholeheartedly. Seeing as our O-line is probably better than Houston's and Moreno was a much better RB in college than Foster (they played at the same time in the same SEC), I think Moreno could be just as effective in that system if we used it here.

When we were using it in his rookie season he was a much more effective runner.

underrated29
01-17-2011, 04:46 PM
The real question is what do we do with our current o-line to maximize their ability in the ZBS?

Will we be able to be effective in the redzone with it?



That is the million dollar question right there!!






Why would they not be effective in the red zone?

Ever since we won the superbowl back in the 90s- The redzone defenses have been able to hold the ZBS to a minimum. Not all teams all the time, but the ZBS is not as productive in the redzone. Less space to defend, defenses can cram the LOS, etc etc.




I think with knowshon and Big tits lendale white we should be ok in the RZ with the ZBS. Lendale is a touchdown monster.

HORSEPOWER 56
01-17-2011, 04:47 PM
Why would they not be effective in the red zone?

The big argument with our old ZBS was that the smaller, more athletic O-linemen got pushed around in short yardage and red-zone obvious running scenarios (1st and goal inside the 5) and it led to our redzone TD % being pretty bad.

Our O-line is much bigger now than it was in the Shanahan era but I feel they could still run the ZBS and be effective at it. They also have the size inside the redzone to be effective (If we'd actually commit to it and use 3 TEs and FB like everyone else does instead of running out of a single back formation all the time like McDaniels kept calling)...

HORSEPOWER 56
01-17-2011, 04:48 PM
I think with knowshon and Big tits lendale white we should be ok in the RZ with the ZBS. Lendale is a touchdown monster.

Having a QB like Tebow who allows us to play 11 on 11 in the redzone and short yardage helps, too.

GEM
01-17-2011, 04:50 PM
We are not changing to the ZBS for knowshon.



Fox runs the ZBS and he is bringing with him his OL boys. We will be returning to the ZBS because that is what Fox wants.

HALLLLLLLELUJAH!!!! HALLLLLLLLELUJAH!!

Thank God.

Ecstatic about returning to the ZBS.

BroncoStud
01-17-2011, 04:51 PM
Droughns.

underrated29
01-17-2011, 04:53 PM
Having a QB like Tebow who allows us to play 11 on 11 in the redzone and short yardage helps, too.


Yessir.

I still have not found a way to check the stats. And I did miss the houston game. But i think...........



Tebow is 100% for touchdowns inside the redzone. I still cant find a way to check for sure, but all the games where he came in for orton and his 3 starts I do not remember 1 time that we did not score a td, inside the redzone, with him on the field. Pretty freaking impressive.- that with lendale, and knowshon and the zbs like you say. Goes a lllllooooooooooooooooooooong way to fixing RZ issues.

SOCALORADO.
01-17-2011, 04:53 PM
When we were using it in his rookie season he was a much more effective runner.

Moreno has never been effective in the NFL.
He cant block, cant stay healthy and is slow.
He is destined to be a back-up.
He just doesnt have the skills to play in the NFL, and be productive.

i am a bit wary of DeAngelo as well because of his injury history, which is also minor like Knowshow, however DeAngelo is absolutely insane when he is healthy.
He is incredibly fast, has the ability to stop on a dime, then take off and excel to top speed in the blink of an eye. He has incredible moves and burst, and can make anyone miss. Top end speed all day, plus he has a wicked stiff arm.
Fox should make every effort to get Williams into DEN ASAP.
This guy is freakin insane, and would take a huge amount of the work load and pressure off of TT.
Would also make up for the idiot pick by McDamniels.
Just watch this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQDQnWYDVTk&feature=related

Agent of Orange
01-17-2011, 04:55 PM
That is the million dollar question right there!!







Ever since we won the superbowl back in the 90s- The redzone defenses have been able to hold the ZBS to a minimum. Not all teams all the time, but the ZBS is not as productive in the redzone. Less space to defend, defenses can cram the LOS, etc etc.




I think with knowshon and Big tits lendale white we should be ok in the RZ with the ZBS. Lendale is a touchdown monster.


The big argument with our old ZBS was that the smaller, more athletic O-linemen got pushed around in short yardage and red-zone obvious running scenarios (1st and goal inside the 5) and it led to our redzone TD % being pretty bad.

Our O-line is much bigger now than it was in the Shanahan era but I feel they could still run the ZBS and be effective at it. They also have the size inside the redzone to be effective (If we'd actually commit to it and use 3 TEs and FB like everyone else does instead of running out of a single back formation all the time like McDaniels kept calling)...

What makes you so sure thats a ZBS problem and not a Ben Hamilton problem?

Just to make this easy, I'll point out that Arian Foster led the NFL in rushing TDs.

HORSEPOWER 56
01-17-2011, 04:59 PM
Yessir.

I still have not found a way to check the stats. And I did miss the houston game. But i think...........



Tebow is 100% for touchdowns inside the redzone. I still cant find a way to check for sure, but all the games where he came in for orton and his 3 starts I do not remember 1 time that we did not score a td, inside the redzone, with him on the field. Pretty freaking impressive.- that with lendale, and knowshon and the zbs like you say. Goes a lllllooooooooooooooooooooong way to fixing RZ issues.

Except for his first drive vs the Texans. He threw a redzone pick trying to hit Lloyd on what was supposed to be a back-shoulder fade...:doh:

It was an ugly pass. Lloyd had no chance on it.

HORSEPOWER 56
01-17-2011, 05:01 PM
What makes you so sure thats a ZBS problem and not a Ben Hamilton problem?

Just to make this easy, I'll point out that Arian Foster led the NFL in rushing TDs.

That was my point. Guys like Nalen, Hamilton, Weigmann, etc were in the 260-280 range and would get pushed around by bigger DTs. Now, all of our O-linemen are 300+ so we should be fine.

Slick
01-17-2011, 05:03 PM
When is Knowshon's contract up?

Agent of Orange
01-17-2011, 05:06 PM
That was my point. Guys like Nalen, Hamilton, Weigmann, etc were in the 260-280 range and would get pushed around by bigger DTs. Now, all of our O-linemen are 300+ so we should be fine.

Actually, I wouldnt even put it on Nalen or Wiegmann. Those guys seemed to function OK against the bigger Nose Tackles. I did see Hamilton get pushed around a lot.

These generalizations that correlate purely to weight is really flawed analysis.

dogfish
01-17-2011, 05:35 PM
The real question is what do we do with our current o-line to maximize their ability in the ZBS?

Will we be able to be effective in the redzone with it?

is this a trick question?


we have tim ****ing tebow!



:elefant:

TXBRONC
01-17-2011, 05:42 PM
is this a trick question?


we have tim ****ing tebow!



:elefant:

Having Tebow on offense in the red zone is like having Moses at the Red Sea. :nod:

Lonestar
01-17-2011, 06:00 PM
We all know that our line in the PBS did not exactly do our RB any favors. Neither did the play calling. However, we also know that the ZBS allows a little more lee way so to speak as our OL just have to block a space, not a person.

With that said. How do you think Knowshon will do in the ZBS. Will he thrive? Will he remain par? Will he get worse? (this is based on the fact that we do NOT get deangelo williams.)




Remember we had guys like Orlandis Gary, Reuben Droughns, and selvin young do really well in our zbs and put up over 1k.



I think this could really really benefit Knowshon, Yes, I know I am bias as he is my fav RB, but I think knowshon has much better vision than he is given credit for and I think that the ZBS will help him out a lot. 1300 yards and another 200 through the air-sounds about right to me.



Think he did OK in the PBS considering the injuries he and the oline had.

As fro ZBS no doubt he will do good. until we get inside the red zone.

Then we are back to making our FG kicker a hero like Elam was.

I'll repeat it once again. teams that feature the ZBS do not win superbowls.. At least they have not since we did with TD, John, Sharpe, Zimm, Stink and company.

When it was unique no one had a defense for it because only one team ran it and it was not worth spending a lot of time to Defense it.

But then the 3-4 defenses pretty much beat us like rented mules once all the super stars retired.

I will hope that I never see another ZBS on my Broncos team.

Ziggy
01-17-2011, 06:10 PM
When is Knowshon's contract up?

He was a 1st round pick, so 5 years from when he was drafted, which would make it after the 2013 season.

Slick
01-17-2011, 06:26 PM
He was a 1st round pick, so 5 years from when he was drafted, which would make it after the 2013 season.

Thanks Ziggy.


Ouch!

rcsodak
01-18-2011, 07:33 AM
Why would they not be effective in the red zone?
Wow....are you new to the Broncos? Lol. Short yardage/redzone were their achilles for years (with zbs).
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Traveler
01-18-2011, 07:44 AM
My problem with Knowshon is his conditioning. Not sure what the problem is but he seems to have trouble breathing after just a few plays. Seems to be always taking himself out of the game.

Too bad Rich Tuten is still here. None of our players seems to get better or stronger once they are drafted by us. Might be time to look more closely at our strength & condotioning program.

I was really sold that Moreno would be a great RB when he got here. Hasn't happened yet. Hopefully, Fox and staff can get him on track.

Dirk
01-18-2011, 07:58 AM
My problem with Knowshon is his conditioning. Not sure what the problem is but he seems to have trouble breathing after just a few plays. Seems to be always taking himself out of the game.

Too bad Rich Tuten is still here. None of our players seems to get better or stronger once they are drafted by us. Might be time to look more closely at our strength & condotioning program.

I was really sold that Moreno would be a great RB when he got here. Hasn't happened yet. Hopefully, Fox and staff can get him on track.

I have been saying that for a long time. Pulled muscles, hamstring issues and running out of steam seems to be a common theme in Denver.

Agent of Orange
01-18-2011, 09:15 AM
Wow....are you new to the Broncos? Lol. Short yardage/redzone were their achilles for years (with zbs).
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

This was already covered. Arian Foster led the league in TDs playing in this system, which raises the question. Is it a ZBS problem or a Ben Hamilton problem?

G_Money
01-18-2011, 11:08 AM
I think more ZBS plays will help Moreno. I thought he was gonna be a beast coming out of college. I wanted Shady, but I figured Moreno would be good. He was smooth, low center of gravity, confident, good vision, could run it all day, slipped tackles...

So he came here and became a jerky, awkward runner with poor vision and no stamina who got lit up by tacklers and injured. :huh:

Fox knows the running game. I expect Moreno to become much better - if he can stay on the field all the time.

Part of that is injuries, and part of it is that I don't think he's good in pass protection, and with more ZBS plays leading to more potential uncovered rushers or missed cut blocks letting guys run free, it's important to have a back that knows his assignment and can pass protect.

I know we won't be throwing it all the time, but I expect to add another rusher who can block better than Moreno while we wait for Knowshon to get up to speed.

And that way when he gets injured again we've got a back who can shoulder more of the load.

~G

GEM
01-18-2011, 11:13 AM
My problem with Knowshon is his conditioning. Not sure what the problem is but he seems to have trouble breathing after just a few plays. Seems to be always taking himself out of the game.

Too bad Rich Tuten is still here. None of our players seems to get better or stronger once they are drafted by us. Might be time to look more closely at our strength & condotioning program.

I was really sold that Moreno would be a great RB when he got here. Hasn't happened yet. Hopefully, Fox and staff can get him on track.

My dad and I are just amazed at Moreno on the sidelines huffing and puffing after 8 yards like he's Hester running a 108 yd return. He'll run 2 yards and my dad always says, "See ya in a few plays Moreno." :lol:

Lonestar
01-18-2011, 01:05 PM
This was already covered. Arian Foster led the league in TDs playing in this system, which raises the question. Is it a ZBS problem or a Ben Hamilton problem?

We have had short yardage and Red zone issues long before Hamilton

Yes fosters tEam has won how many playoff games?

Every one Gits all hot and bothered about running yardage.

Just how many superblows have been won by running teams that employ the ZBS.

For that matter by primarily running teams.

dogfish
01-18-2011, 01:09 PM
Just how many superblows have been won by running teams that employ the ZBS.



a lot more than have ever been won by josh mcdaniels' bullshit system, but that never stopped you from slurping the hell out of it. . . ;)




oh, too soon?

TXBRONC
01-18-2011, 01:45 PM
The zone blocking system isn't what caused Denver's problems in the red zone and short yardage. The problem was always being to small in short yardage whether it was at the goalline or just trying to make a first down. In those situations you have be able to out muscle the defense. There is no law that I know of that says you can't use bigger offensive linemen to run a zone blocking scheme.

underrated29
01-18-2011, 02:23 PM
Ryan Clady- Welcome back to Probowl Stardome!

Lonestar
01-18-2011, 02:28 PM
a lot more than have ever been won by josh mcdaniels' bullshit system, but that never stopped you from slurping the hell out of it. . . ;)




oh, too soon?

Seems to me that NE has a lot more rings than does DEN..

but then I could be counting wrong.

I admire what Belicheck and their owner has accomplished over the past 12 years or so..

Sorry that many can not appreciate it.. Almost sounds like envy..

Northman
01-18-2011, 02:33 PM
Every one Gits all hot and bothered about running yardage.



Funny, i was saying the same thing about all the passing yds this year that we had.

Lonestar
01-18-2011, 02:42 PM
Funny, i was saying the same thing about all the passing yds this year that we had.

Was under the impression that it is NOW and PAssing league those that pass have the upper edge .

But then I might have missed the memo that said running is back.

Northman
01-18-2011, 02:54 PM
Was under the impression that it is NOW and PAssing league those that pass have the upper edge .

But then I might have missed the memo that said running is back.

Not much has changed in the course of 50 years. People somehow think that passing has all of a sudden gone up when really it hasnt. Sure, the Db's have been scaled back on terms of their ability to be physical but the pass/run ratio is still the same as it always has been. For teams that mainly pass (Indy, NO) they are no longer in the playoffs.

TXBRONC
01-18-2011, 02:55 PM
New England has one more ring than Denver does and they are 0-3 in their last three playoff appearances.

Lonestar
01-18-2011, 03:04 PM
Not much has changed in the course of 50 years. People somehow think that passing has all of a sudden gone up when really it hasnt. Sure, the Db's have been scaled back on terms of their ability to be physical but the pass/run ratio is still the same as it always has been. For teams that mainly pass (Indy, NO) they are no longer in the playoffs.

If you say so.

Is the YPC still the same, how about the TD ratio?

It is a passing league fact of life.

Means nothing in who is not left in the playoffs.

Means that they at least got there and had not run into hot teams would still be there.

On any given sunday....

Agent of Orange
01-18-2011, 03:29 PM
We have had short yardage and Red zone issues long before Hamilton

Yes fosters tEam has won how many playoff games?

Every one Gits all hot and bothered about running yardage.

Just how many superblows have been won by running teams that employ the ZBS.

For that matter by primarily running teams.

In another thread you said the ZBS had problems against the physical 3-4 teams. I debunked that just by looking at games against quality 3-4 defenses in 2006.

I think if people are really going to be honest with themselves, they'll realize that the problems started with niche lineman, which Hamilton is a prime example of (and why I use him specifically as an example).

Youre making two wrong assumptions, the first being that it hasn't worked and the second being that it can't work. Again, both are wrong. If it can't work, then it would never work and that's not the case.

What does Houston's offense have to do with how many playoff games they've won? In case you weren't aware, their problem hasn't really been their offense. They're top 10 in both running and passing, and again, their RB led the league in rushing TDs. Don't confuse the issue.

By the way, that very same system has also put 4 different QBs in the Pro Bowl post Elway. Griese went in 2000, Plummer went in 2005, Cutler went in 2008, and Schaub went in 2009. Thats 4 different QBs spread evenly apart, with one of them being from a different team. And people thought Josh McDaniels' system was QB friendly.

G_Money
01-18-2011, 03:45 PM
Top ten passing teams of 2010 by attempts (playoff teams in bold):

Colts
Saints
Lions
Redskins
Bengals
Rams
Broncos
Falcons
Cowboys
Texans

Top ten running teams of 2010 by attempts (playoff teams in bold):

Chiefs
Jets
Jaguars
Raiders
Falcons
Ravens
Giants
Steelers
Chargers
Patriots

It may be a passing league rules-wise, but the teams that are willing and able to run the ball sure seem to make the playoffs at a higher rate than those that just pass it.

The only passing team left in the playoffs is the Packers, and they're still in because they found a running back to complement Aaron Rodgers and the passing game - and their defense is terrific.

In fact, most of the running teams have terrific Ds and good records. Apparently even in a passing league if you run the ball and stop the run the way Fox wants to, you can win.

As I recall, that's how we won championships. We weren't as good at stopping the run, but what we were good at is scoring early and often, then running the ball for the second half, chewing clock and forcing other teams to abandon their running game and make THEMSELVES one-dimensional trying to catch us.

I don't think Elway has forgotten that. He knows the running game took pressure off him, and a good scoring D did the same. If it's always 2nd and 5, then it's easier to get those first downs.

I don't mind the theory of a tough running team with a good D and a QB who can move chains in critical situations in the slightest.

Passing YPG:

Patriots: 11th
Steelers: 14th
Atlanta: 15th

That's not a bad place to be. I question whether McCoy is the man to run such an offense for us, but I'm willing to see it attempted, definitely.

~G

dogfish
01-18-2011, 03:50 PM
Seems to me that NE has a lot more rings than does DEN..

but then I could be counting wrong.

I admire what Belicheck and their owner has accomplished over the past 12 years or so..

Sorry that many can not appreciate it.. Almost sounds like envy..

new england may have three, but josh and his system have zero. . .

nice deflection attempt, though. . . :D

Lonestar
01-18-2011, 03:57 PM
In another thread you said the ZBS had problems against the physical 3-4 teams. I debunked that just by looking at games against quality 3-4 defenses in 2006.

I think if people are really going to be honest with themselves, they'll realize that the problems started with niche lineman, which Hamilton is a prime example of (and why I use him specifically as an example).

Youre making two wrong assumptions, the first being that it hasn't worked and the second being that it can't work. Again, both are wrong. If it can't work, then it would never work and that's not the case.

What does Houston's offense have to do with how many playoff games they've won? In case you weren't aware, their problem hasn't really been their offense. They're top 10 in both running and passing, and again, their RB led the league in rushing TDs. Don't confuse the issue.

By the way, that very same system has also put 4 different QBs in the Pro Bowl post Elway. Griese went in 2000, Plummer went in 2005, Cutler went in 2008, and Schaub went in 2009. Thats 4 different QBs spread evenly apart, with one of them being from a different team. And people thought Josh McDaniels' system was QB friendly.


4 different Qb in the pro bowl exactly what does the have to do with running the ball?


they got there because of their passing stats. not based on whether we could run the ball between the 20's.

Just curious how many of those TD's they got were inside the red zone..

I still stand by my idea that the ZBS is for stat mongers, and when the rubber hits the road the better defenses shut them down.



Regular Season Games Rushing Receiving Fumbles
WK Game Date Opp Result G GS Att Yds Avg Lng TD Rec Yds Avg Lng TD FUM Lost
1 09/12 IND W 34-24 1 1 33 231 7.0 42 3 1 7 7.0 7 0 -- --
2 09/19 @ WAS W 30-27 1 1 19 69 3.6 11 0 3 69 23.0 50 0 -- --
3 09/26 DAL L 13-27 1 1 17 106 6.2 26 0 4 20 5.0 14 0 1 1
4 10/03 @ OAK W 31-24 1 0 17 133 7.8 74T 1 3 56 18.7 31 1 -- --
5 10/10 NYG L 10-34 1 1 11 25 2.3 9 0 2 2 1.0 6 0 -- --
6 10/17 KC W 35-31 1 1 18 71 3.9 21 2 6 26 4.3 10 0 -- --
7 Bye -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
8 11/01 @ IND L 17-30 1 1 15 102 6.8 33 1 9 65 7.2 14 0 -- --
9 11/07 SD L 23-29 1 1 27 127 4.7 15 2 4 70 17.5 33 0 -- --
10 11/14 @ JAC L 24-31 1 1 15 56 3.7 14 1 1 4 4.0 4 0 -- --
11 11/21 @ NYJ L 27-30 1 0 22 84 3.8 19 2 6 59 9.8 20 0 1 1
12 11/28 TEN W 20-0 1 1 30 143 4.8 37 0 9 75 8.3 19 0 -- --
13 12/02 @ PHI L 24-34 1 1 22 83 3.8 29 1 2 26 13.0 13T 1 -- --
14 12/13 BAL L 28-34 1 1 20 100 5.0 16 0 4 25 6.3 10 0 1 0
15 12/19 @ TEN L 17-31 1 0 11 15 1.4 7 0 6 46 7.7 18 0 -- --
16 12/26 @ DEN L 23-24 1 1 19 91 4.8 34 1 4 44 11.0 28 0 -- --
17 01/02 JAC W 34-17 1 1 31 180 5.8 56 2 2 10 5.0 6 0 -- --
TOTAL 16 13 327 1,616 4.9 74 16 66 604 9.2 50 2 3 2

I see a few games where he ran wild and they won but I also see when he played real defenses he did not do so well

In fact when they played us our lousy defense held him to 91 yards.

Sorry but I will stand by a good 3-4 will stop the ZBS every time.

Need I remind y'all


Rushing ATT YDS TD LG
M. Anderson 9 36 1 7
T. Bell 5 31 0 11
J. Plummer 7 30 0 8


AFCCG against the Stealers

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2006012200/2005/POST20/steelers@broncos/analyze/box-score

Lonestar
01-18-2011, 03:59 PM
new england may have three, but josh and his system have zero. . .

nice deflection attempt, though. . . :D

IIRC Joshes scheme is NE's scheme.

He just did not stick long enough to get his 3.:beer:

But nice try..

BigDaddyBronco
01-18-2011, 03:59 PM
new england may have three, but josh and his system have zero. . .

nice deflection attempt, though. . . :D
Honestly though, the McD offense in NE was one lucky catch away from being the shnizit. They scored 589 pts that year. If you can average 36.8 pts/game, who cares about running out the clock, you want the ball back so you can hang another TD on the opposition.

Northman
01-18-2011, 04:01 PM
Top ten passing teams of 2010 by attempts (playoff teams in bold):

Colts
Saints
Lions
Redskins
Bengals
Rams
Broncos
Falcons
Cowboys
Texans

Top ten running teams of 2010 by attempts (playoff teams in bold):

Chiefs
Jets
Jaguars
Raiders
Falcons
Ravens
Giants
Steelers
Chargers
Patriots

It may be a passing league rules-wise, but the teams that are willing and able to run the ball sure seem to make the playoffs at a higher rate than those that just pass it.

The only passing team left in the playoffs is the Packers, and they're still in because they found a running back to complement Aaron Rodgers and the passing game - and their defense is terrific.

In fact, most of the running teams have terrific Ds and good records. Apparently even in a passing league if you run the ball and stop the run the way Fox wants to, you can win.

As I recall, that's how we won championships. We weren't as good at stopping the run, but what we were good at is scoring early and often, then running the ball for the second half, chewing clock and forcing other teams to abandon their running game and make THEMSELVES one-dimensional trying to catch us.

I don't think Elway has forgotten that. He knows the running game took pressure off him, and a good scoring D did the same. If it's always 2nd and 5, then it's easier to get those first downs.

I don't mind the theory of a tough running team with a good D and a QB who can move chains in critical situations in the slightest.

Passing YPG:

Patriots: 11th
Steelers: 14th
Atlanta: 15th

That's not a bad place to be. I question whether McCoy is the man to run such an offense for us, but I'm willing to see it attempted, definitely.

~G


Well done, pretty much what i expected.

Northman
01-18-2011, 04:04 PM
IIRC Joshes scheme is NE's scheme.

He just did not stick long enough to get his 3.:beer:

But nice try..

Not entirely true, this has been debunked.

Both Josh and Belichek went to visit Meyer in Florida when they were interested in that scheme. Both came away and worked together to create that scheme which is still used in NE but not working in terms of winning in the playoffs and SB when it matters most.

dogfish
01-18-2011, 04:05 PM
Honestly though, the McD offense in NE was one lucky catch away from being the shnizit. They scored 589 pts that year. If you can average 36.8 pts/game, who cares about running out the clock, you want the ball back so you can hang another TD on the opposition.

coulda shoulda woulda. . .

the last three times new england and their fancy passing game have gone to the playoffs, they've lost to a more physical team-- without the video tapes, they're just another team. . . a good one, but even with a HOF QB they aren't the model franchise anymore IMO. . .

G_Money
01-18-2011, 04:07 PM
I admire the Patriots quite a bit.

But their system, too, is built around defense and a (nearly) unflappable HOF QB. Their offensive system has been tweaked more times since Brady's first superbowl than Belichick has bought hoodies. It doesn't matter. No WRs? Great season. Great WRs? Great season. Bad running team or good running team, it didn't much matter.

They have a system that works up there. Unfortunately, it's not reproducable.

Bill Walsh built an offensive system that has won Conference championships and Super Bowls not just for himself and the 49ers, but passed through his assistants he's netted literally dozens of those titles.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a4/Walsh_Coaching_Tree3.png

Holy crap is that a lot of coaching talent that Walsh and his "offspring" have passed down.

Belichick has never passed along the magic ingredient to any of his proteges. They all try to make cakes rise without yeast and can't figure out what they're doing wrong.

Unless they are college coaches, I guess. Most of his college proteges are or have been excellent. But that's a job where being an autocrat and making everyone do everything your way can be rewarded with lots of success.

It's harder to manage every little thing in the pros. So while I admire what Bill has done in NE, I don't believe it's reproducable as a model for other NFL teams. And I'm curious how he'll do separated from Pioli now. My guess is he'll be fine, but Shanahan didn't draft or build his own Super Bowl teams. He took over as GM once they were built, a few years into his tenure.

And it was to our detriment, since Shanahan couldn't do everything either.

Fox doesn't try to do it The Patriot Way, and in this case I'm glad for that. It means if Xanders sucks we can replace him without moving Fox out of the way. We could never fire Shanahan the GM without losing Shanahan the coach, and that was the Achilles Heel of our last decade. Following in its footsteps by getting into the same problem with McDaniels was idiocy.

Let's hope that's taken care of now.

~G

dogfish
01-18-2011, 04:11 PM
belichick's brain, while truly brilliant, also seems to be poisoned ground where nothing can take root. . .

there will be no belichick coaching tree. . .

Agent of Orange
01-18-2011, 04:12 PM
4 different Qb in the pro bowl exactly what does the have to do with running the ball?

It has to do with which is the better offense and is more time tested.


they got there because of their passing stats. not based on whether we could run the ball between the 20's.

Are you talking about Houston? If so, you must have missed the part where I pointed out that they were top 10 at running and passing. If a team had the most over all yards but were last at rushing, you'd know they have a flaw. When you get to the playoffs, those teams can often play defense and expose flaws. BTW, the last time New England won a Super Bowl it was during a year when Corey Dillon had over 1600 yards and McDaniels wasnt the OC-- Weis was.


Just curious how many of those TD's they got were inside the red zone..

I'm not sure but Im pretty sure several were inside the 10. I really doubt that the league leader in rushing TDs' every score was over 20 yards.


I still stand by my idea that the ZBS is for stat mongers, and when the rubber hits the road the better defenses shut them down.

I've already debunked this by posting #s from 2006. Ill even add to that, in 2008, the NY Jets might have been the most physical team Denver faced and Denver ran all over them. Hillis had over 100 yards ans Wiegmann worked Jenkins all day. If what you're saying is true, that could never happen.




Regular Season Games Rushing Receiving Fumbles
WK Game Date Opp Result G GS Att Yds Avg Lng TD Rec Yds Avg Lng TD FUM Lost
1 09/12 IND W 34-24 1 1 33 231 7.0 42 3 1 7 7.0 7 0 -- --
2 09/19 @ WAS W 30-27 1 1 19 69 3.6 11 0 3 69 23.0 50 0 -- --
3 09/26 DAL L 13-27 1 1 17 106 6.2 26 0 4 20 5.0 14 0 1 1
4 10/03 @ OAK W 31-24 1 0 17 133 7.8 74T 1 3 56 18.7 31 1 -- --
5 10/10 NYG L 10-34 1 1 11 25 2.3 9 0 2 2 1.0 6 0 -- --
6 10/17 KC W 35-31 1 1 18 71 3.9 21 2 6 26 4.3 10 0 -- --
7 Bye -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
8 11/01 @ IND L 17-30 1 1 15 102 6.8 33 1 9 65 7.2 14 0 -- --
9 11/07 SD L 23-29 1 1 27 127 4.7 15 2 4 70 17.5 33 0 -- --
10 11/14 @ JAC L 24-31 1 1 15 56 3.7 14 1 1 4 4.0 4 0 -- --
11 11/21 @ NYJ L 27-30 1 0 22 84 3.8 19 2 6 59 9.8 20 0 1 1
12 11/28 TEN W 20-0 1 1 30 143 4.8 37 0 9 75 8.3 19 0 -- --
13 12/02 @ PHI L 24-34 1 1 22 83 3.8 29 1 2 26 13.0 13T 1 -- --
14 12/13 BAL L 28-34 1 1 20 100 5.0 16 0 4 25 6.3 10 0 1 0
15 12/19 @ TEN L 17-31 1 0 11 15 1.4 7 0 6 46 7.7 18 0 -- --
16 12/26 @ DEN L 23-24 1 1 19 91 4.8 34 1 4 44 11.0 28 0 -- --
17 01/02 JAC W 34-17 1 1 31 180 5.8 56 2 2 10 5.0 6 0 -- --
TOTAL 16 13 327 1,616 4.9 74 16 66 604 9.2 50 2 3 2

I see a few games where he ran wild and they won but I also see when he played real defenses he did not do so well
Are you kidding? He had good games against San Diego (the #1 defense), Baltimore, and I know that he had 2 short TDs against the Jets because I remember that game. Plus Tennessee and Jacksonville have been historically physical teams and he had big games against each of them.


In fact when they played us our lousy defense held him to 91 yards.

They averaged 4.8 yards per carry against us. Thats hardly bad.


Sorry but I will stand by a good 3-4 will stop the ZBS every time.
This has alreayd been disproven.


Need I remind y'all


Rushing ATT YDS TD LG
M. Anderson 9 36 1 7
T. Bell 5 31 0 11
J. Plummer 7 30 0 8


This just says that Denver didnt run that much. Anderson had 4 yards per carry. Bell had 6 yards per carry. Even Plummer scrambled for over 4 yards per carry. Everyone listed was over 4 yards per cary.

BigDaddyBronco
01-18-2011, 04:14 PM
Just for shits and grins I looked at the box scores of Arian Foster this year. Of his 16 rushing TD's, 13 of them were inside the 10 yard line (most were 1 or 2 yrd TD's). I guess he can run with ZBS in the red zone.

G_Money
01-18-2011, 04:24 PM
Sorry but I will stand by a good 3-4 will stop the ZBS every time.

Need I remind y'all


Rushing ATT YDS TD LG
M. Anderson 9 36 1 7
T. Bell 5 31 0 11
J. Plummer 7 30 0 8


AFCCG against the Stealers

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2006012200/2005/POST20/steelers@broncos/analyze/box-score

That was with a RB who was selling cell phones a couple of years after that.

Every system needs talent. A decent ZBS can move the ball between the 20s but stalls out when it comes time to do Man's Work in the red zone. That makes it a good system to use when your talent isn't obscene in the running game, not a bad one.

If you get a great talent at RB, though, and have great linemen, then you can do great things. We did great things when there was great OL talent here and a great back to take advantage of it. 3-4 defenses weren't exactly eviscerating us from 95-98.

The ZBS doesn't require an OL to move his man, just to incapacitate him. Gilbert Brown looked like a fool in the Super Bowl, a monstrous man who just couldn't keep up or exert leverage the way he wanted. Size wasn't the issue.

~G

G_Money
01-18-2011, 04:35 PM
To reiterate:

Us using tiny linemen who were drafted late to run our ZBS was a personal choice by Shanahan. The ZBS requires mobile linemen but not necessarily tiny ones. It was just easier for him to use 6th round picks on his players and hope for the next Nalen instead of drafting linemen early where the bigger guys were. He also liked to scrap-heap his backs from the UDFA class.

Jordan Gross was a first round pick for Carolina. Khalil was the first center drafted, IIRC. Wharton was a 3rd rounder. I don't know if Fox had any input on drafting those guys, but he puts his picks into the line. The couple first-rounders in the backfield didn't hurt either.

We'll see if we need a new center (though sadly it will not be Khalil). Beadles is okay at guard. We might need a new tackle, and I would not find it amiss if we drafted one.

But just having an OL coach actually coaching the line instead of a TE coach will help. And Fox's OL coach is a VERY good one. Not Alex-Gibbs-good but no one is. I would say better than Dennison. Bigger guys + better talent + better coach than the last several years should improve the line.

One can hope, anyway.

It'll have to be proved on Sundays, especially against 3-4 fronts. I look forward to seeing it.

~G

TXBRONC
01-18-2011, 07:43 PM
Just for shits and grins I looked at the box scores of Arian Foster this year. Of his 16 rushing TD's, 13 of them were inside the 10 yard line (most were 1 or 2 yrd TD's). I guess he can run with ZBS in the red zone.

The zone blocking scheme was NEVER the problem undersized offensive linemen were the problem. You don't have to be small to run the ZBS just athletic.

dogfish
01-18-2011, 07:47 PM
The zone blocking scheme was NEVER the problem undersized offensive linemen were the problem. You don't have to be small to run the ZBS just athletic.

i always though not having any good running backs was part of the problem as well. . . we never had any problem scoring in the red zone when we had TD or portis, but things went downhill from there. . .

besides, pinning those problems on scheme instead of personnel has always been retarded-- if zone blocking not being able to open lanes in cramped spaces was the problem, simply going to man blocking inside the red zone would have solved it. . .

conversely, having a man blocking scheme doesn't earn you shit if those men can't block-- we saw that pretty conclusively in the mcdaniels era. . .

TXBRONC
01-18-2011, 07:51 PM
i always though not having any good running backs was part of the problem as well. . . we never had any problem scoring in the red zone when we had TD or portis, but things went downhill from there. . .

besides, pinning those problems on scheme instead of personnel has always been retarded-- if zone blocking not being able to open lanes in cramped spaces was the problem, simply going to man blocking inside the red zone would have solved it. . .

conversely, having a man blocking scheme doesn't earn you shit if those men can't block-- we saw that pretty conclusively in the mcdaniels era. . .

Agreed. Any scheme can look great or bad depending on the quality of the personnel.

zbeg
01-18-2011, 08:29 PM
We have had short yardage and Red zone issues long before Hamilton

Yes fosters tEam has won how many playoff games?

Every one Gits all hot and bothered about running yardage.

Just how many superblows have been won by running teams that employ the ZBS.

For that matter by primarily running teams.

Do people just think defenses don't exist?

"What's X's record as a starter?"
"Yeah, how many playoff games has his team won?"

The Texans had one of the worst defenses in the history of football, but hey. Screw you, Foster! How many playoff wins do you have? Yeah, I know you led the NFL in rushing, but...playoff wins! You should go out there and play safety and then defensive tackle and play both while you're at it! Screw you, buddy!

Agent of Orange
01-18-2011, 09:52 PM
To reiterate:

Us using tiny linemen who were drafted late to run our ZBS was a personal choice by Shanahan. The ZBS requires mobile linemen but not necessarily tiny ones. It was just easier for him to use 6th round picks on his players and hope for the next Nalen instead of drafting linemen early where the bigger guys were. He also liked to scrap-heap his backs from the UDFA class.
Jordan Gross was a first round pick for Carolina. Khalil was the first center drafted, IIRC. Wharton was a 3rd rounder. I don't know if Fox had any input on drafting those guys, but he puts his picks into the line. The couple first-rounders in the backfield didn't hurt either.

We'll see if we need a new center (though sadly it will not be Khalil). Beadles is okay at guard. We might need a new tackle, and I would not find it amiss if we drafted one.

But just having an OL coach actually coaching the line instead of a TE coach will help. And Fox's OL coach is a VERY good one. Not Alex-Gibbs-good but no one is. I would say better than Dennison. Bigger guys + better talent + better coach than the last several years should improve the line.

One can hope, anyway.

It'll have to be proved on Sundays, especially against 3-4 fronts. I look forward to seeing it.

~G

This is pretty much it and what you mentioned were kind of what I referred to as niche linemen...guys who could only play in one system. Though the guys in the early days were light, they had also been successful as linemen in the conventional blocking schemes, so there was a strength element to their game that wasnt seen in later niche linemen.