Broncos Defense and the Fate of Doom

[WARHORSE]

Sounds like a movie title.


Well, of course one of the things on all our minds is what type of defense we will run....the 4-3 which has been a mainstay in Carolina, or the 3-4.

Normally I would leave the thread to move forward as is, but the part of this that has me most interested in is Elvis Dumerville and what he means to us.

If we run a 4-3, Doom will not be the same guy as we all know. A 4-3 requires four stout defensive linemen, with two great edge rushers. This is an expensive defense. Even if you HAVE two great DEs, they will end up costing you an arm, a leg, a lung, a kidney and one eye. Doomerville will bring pressure, but will be more of a liability in the run game. If youre going to pay a DE, he needs to be effective no matter the down.

When it comes to running an effective 4-3, we dont have the personel. Ayers would need to play DE. Can he? I think so, but it still leaves alot desired.

So.....if you use Doom is a 4-3 and he goes back to the same stats as he had before in the 4-3, then he no longer is worth the money.

Which brings up possibly trading him.

Id say he wont be a trade commodity, but in this time of uncertainty due to the labor agreement, anything is possible.

Normally, he would be untradeable because his signing bonus would be accelerated immediately and the Broncos not only would eat the money, they would have to eat the cap space as well.

One of the things being talked about, is the lockout. But the league doesnt HAVE to lockout. They can move forward with the last best offer made. So if the league doesnt declare a lockout on March 4th, which wouldnt preclude them from doing so any time afterwards, there will be time to trade players whether for picks or anything.

This is important because what are the parameters?

If we no longer have cap space to be concerned about......which we dont at this point........that means you can trade Doom to a team, and simply have them accept the contract as is. If Doom has a clause that says his bonus must be paid to him immediately in full upon trade, then the team trading for him will either have to fork over the money, or get him to redo the contract for them along the same parameters that the Broncos had in place.

In other words, they simply accept the contract and ask Doom to accept payments the same way he would have gotten them from the Broncos.

Doom would have to bring a 1st and 3rd Im sure, or a high first for a 3-4 team.........that wont take place knowing hes coming off injury......which means settling for less.

Personally, I hope Fox sticks with Wink and the 3-4, because of personel and continuity for guys like Champ.

Thoughts?

[jhildebrand]

Can't have any trades until the CBA is resolved. Once the CBA is resolved there will most definitely be a cap in place.

Ayers was a hand in the dirt DE at TN. He is much more likely to succeed in a 4-3.

I don't want wink running the 3-4, the 4-3 or even the LB's.

I think they need to commit to what they want to do and stick to it. None of this hybrid part time of each crap. Its easier to find 4-3 guys but we DO HAVE THE #2 pick.

[hotcarl]

we should have traded him instead of brandon marshall, hills, and sheff for 12 #1 draft picks. its so wierd that he is worth that much money yet can only get sacks when he lines up literally 2 feet away.

the 3-4 - 4-3 thing is such crap anymore (except for the NT/DT) position - everyone runs a hybrid. who cares. if hes a good football player then sack somebody.

WE WON 4 GAMES THIS YEAR WHO GIVES A SHIT WHAT KIND OF DEFENSE THEY RUN? ITS NOT LIKE THE 3-4 WAS THE ANSWER ON THIS SHIT TEAM :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[HORSEPOWER 56]

We could easily transition back to the 4-3. The majority of NFL teams run it, therefore the market for FAs who fit the system is larger and the majority of college teams run it therefore the majority of top defensive talent in the draft has played in it.

As for Dumervil, didn't he already play in a 4-3 in both college and for 3 years as a Bronco? Yep. In Nolan's system, didn't Doom get the majority of his sacks rushing with his hand in the dirt as a nickle 4-3 end - not as a stand up OLB? Yep. If we convert back to the 4-3 defense and Doom is determined to be not good enough to go back to end, would he excel as a 4-3 "rush LB" much like the Redskins did with Orakpo his first year in Washington? Probably.

I don't see an issue here. Much like tailoring the offense and certain packages for Tebow, we can do the same for Doom to make the most of him (at least we should be able to with a REAL defensive HC and DC).

[Denver Native (Carol)]

On the fan this afternoon, Mark Schlereth stated that many times he and Alfred said this year that the personnel the Broncos had on defense fit the 4-3 much better than the 3-4.

[GEM]

we should have traded him instead of brandon marshall, hills, and sheff for 12 #1 draft picks. its so wierd that he is worth that much money yet can only get sacks when he lines up literally 2 feet away.

the 3-4 - 4-3 thing is such crap anymore (except for the NT/DT) position - everyone runs a hybrid. who cares. if hes a good football player then sack somebody.

WE WON 4 GAMES THIS YEAR WHO GIVES A SHIT WHAT KIND OF DEFENSE THEY RUN? ITS NOT LIKE THE 3-4 WAS THE ANSWER ON THIS SHIT TEAM :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

They'd be better off on defense putting no system on the field...cause we don't have the players to run either. :lol:

[HORSEPOWER 56]

On the fan this afternoon, Mark Schlereth stated that many times he and Alfred said this year that the personnel the Broncos had on defense fit the 4-3 much better than the 3-4.

I agree.

[red98]

We could easily transition back to the 4-3. The majority of NFL teams run it, therefore the market for FAs who fit the system is larger and the majority of college teams run it therefore the majority of top defensive talent in the draft has played in it.

As for Dumervil, didn't he already play in a 4-3 in both college and for 3 years as a Bronco? Yep. In Nolan's system, didn't Doom get the majority of his sacks rushing with his hand in the dirt as a nickle 4-3 end - not as a stand up OLB? Yep. If we convert back to the 4-3 defense and Doom is determined to be not good enough to go back to end, would he excel as a 4-3 "rush LB" much like the Redskins did with Orakpo his first year in Washington? Probably.

I don't see an issue here. Much like tailoring the offense and certain packages for Tebow, we can do the same for Doom to make the most of him (at least we should be able to with a REAL defensive HC and DC).

I think the point is that Doom's not so good against the run. So, sure we can just use him on passing downs, but he get's paid too much to be a part-timer.

I'm with you that we can figure out how to get the most out of him regardless of the alignment (3/4-4/3).

I think he can stop the run, but he hasn't shown it yet.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I think the point is that Doom's not so good against the run. So, sure we can just use him on passing downs, but he get's paid too much to be a part-timer.

I'm with you that we can figure out how to get the most out of him regardless of the alignment (3/4-4/3).

I think he can stop the run, but he hasn't shown it yet.

Unfortunately, most pass rushers aren't. The Colts have made that sacrifice for years on both ends with Freeney and Mathis. It just means the guys inside have to be solid and the LBs need to be fast and instinctive.

Frankly, I've always like the way they use their undersized DEs, play the run on the way to the Quarterback. It's not the best formula for keeping opposing rush yards low, but in a league that's gone pass happy, it works pretty darn good for them. :whoknows:

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I agree.

So then, possibly it was not the fact that the defensive players were bad, but the 3-4 did not fit the players we had.

[Lonestar]

We could easily transition back to the 4-3. The majority of NFL teams run it, therefore the market for FAs who fit the system is larger and the majority of college teams run it therefore the majority of top defensive talent in the draft has played in it.

As for Dumervil, didn't he already play in a 4-3 in both college and for 3 years as a Bronco? Yep. In Nolan's system, didn't Doom get the majority of his sacks rushing with his hand in the dirt as a nickle 4-3 end - not as a stand up OLB? Yep. If we convert back to the 4-3 defense and Doom is determined to be not good enough to go back to end, would he excel as a 4-3 "rush LB" much like the Redskins did with Orakpo his first year in Washington? Probably.

I don't see an issue here. Much like tailoring the offense and certain packages for Tebow, we can do the same for Doom to make the most of him (at least we should be able to with a REAL defensive HC and DC).

Shirley you jest doom covering a TE or RB in pass coverage.:laugh::laugh::laugh: For that matter defending the run..:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Doom is and always will be (most likely) a one trick pony pass rushing hand in the dirt guy, that can't defend the run.

He is what he is, no more no less.

Y'all wanted him way back because we could not live without him now if we go to 4-3 will be a 3rd down pass rusher only.

Some times you should be careful to wish for, you just might get them.

[broncohead]

If we went back to a 43 I would try and trade doom for at least a mid 1st.

[dogfish]

Sounds like a movie title.




and it scared the ****in' hell out of my until i saw it was your thread. . .


:tsk:

[dogfish]

If we went back to a 43 I would try and trade doom for at least a mid 1st.

nice call, mcdaniels!



:welcome:

[Lancane]

If we went back to a 43 I would try and trade doom for at least a mid 1st.

Problem BH is that Doom has lost value, not only because he is a one trick pony being simply a solid pass rusher, but also because he's coming off a season ending injury. Remember Green Bay wanted a first round pick for Walker, because of his season ending injury and other small unimportant issues we traded a second round pick for him. Doom could probably net us a second round to a third round pick and maybe a solid veteran.

Does that mean we shouldn't trade him? If we are truly returning to the 4-3, then it would be smart to get what we can for him. I also think that Orton and possibly even Royal could find themselves on the trading block come March.

[broncohead]

Problem BH is that Doom has lost value, not only because he is a one trick pony being simply a solid pass rusher, but also because he's coming off a season ending injury. Remember Green Bay wanted a first round pick for Walker, because of his season ending injury and other small unimportant issues we traded a second round pick for him. Doom could probably net us a second round to a third round pick and maybe a solid veteran.

Does that mean we shouldn't trade him? If we are truly returning to the 4-3, then it would be smart to get what we can for him. I also think that Orton and possibly even Royal could find themselves on the trading block come March.

For a 2nd maybe. It will depend on who's still on the board I guess but I think we can get a 1st from a 34 team. I don't see Royal being traded imo. There are a few players that McD just didn't utilize and think Royal is one of them.

[Lancane]

For a 2nd maybe. It will depend on who's still on the board I guess but I think we can get a 1st from a 34 team. I don't see Royal being traded imo. There are a few players that McD just didn't utilize and think Royal is one of them.

Eddie Royal has had a few years to prove himself, and while dynamic and physically talented, but he still has value, I don't see him being non-expendable with Thomas, Decker and Gaffney sitting behind him, we are stacked in a sense that trading Royal because he still has value makes absolute sense, is he a true number one or number two receiver? No, he is better in the slot, but I also see Decker being our future slot. We really need defensive bodies, and we need the picks.

[cuzz4169]

Doom is not a liability no matter what D we run don't compare what he did 3yrs ago towhat type of player he is now. I think we are better fit for 4-3. Doom, Bannan, Thomas, Fairley if we get him, Ayers is a better fit for DE.

[cuzz4169]

All of r 3-4 base d-Lineman suck anyways...williams, Vickerson & Mcbean are all probably gonna get cut anyways.

[Northman]

Doom will be fine regardless of scheme. If we would quit settling for DC's who dont know jack shit we would solve a lot of problems right there.

[cuzz4169]

Doom is a stud period. He's a player hes one of the very few keepers we have on D. I do wanna c Ayers at DE though. And I forget his name but the DE from the panthers is a FA to.

[cuzz4169]

Charles Johnson is his name 11.5 sacks..had a nice season taking peppers spot.

[BroncoAV06]

I agree with the folks who say Doom will be fine. To many of you guys are getting to caught up in what a 3-4 or 4-3 LB should be, what he can't do. Not every LB is great at everything, the ones that are well there stars.

Honestly how many guys are pass rushers that cover great and are good against the run? Get talent on the field!
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[EMB6903]

Charles Johnson is his name 11.5 sacks..had a nice season taking peppers spot.

Charles Johnson was undersized coming out of Georgia just like Everette Brown out of FSU. Fox had no trouble fitting them into the defense.

Dumervil will be fine if Denver goes to a 4-3 scheme (which I hope they end up doing)

[Bosco]

We could easily transition back to the 4-3. The majority of NFL teams run it, therefore the market for FAs who fit the system is larger

Actually that's not true. It's a 50/50 split with fifteen 3-4 teams, fifteen 4-3 teams and two hybrid style teams.

Back to the issue at hand. Switching to the 4-3 would be utter lunacy. You take arguably your best defensive player that you just gave a huge contract too (Dumervil) and turn him into a situational pass rusher with the 4-3. Ayers would have to gain weight back to play the strongside DE and you still don't really have any real defensive tackles. You also lose two very solid linebackers in Haggan and Mays, would need to invest in a legit MLB since DJ would be back outside again.

Talk about a real cluster****.

I don't think it matters much though. Fox got his start working under Chuck Noll and the 3-4 Steelers and has openly spoke about his willingness to keep the 3-4. I'd be very surprised (and downright furious) if the 4-3 comes back.

[dogfish]

Doom will be fine regardless of scheme. If we would quit settling for DC's who dont know jack shit we would solve a lot of problems right there.


Doom is a stud period. He's a player hes one of the very few keepers we have on D. I do wanna c Ayers at DE though. And I forget his name but the DE from the panthers is a FA to.

a creative DC will find endless uses for an elite edge rusher with a great motor who has experience in both 30 and 40 fronts, now has a year of coverage drops under his belt, and is a natural terror rushing the passer with his hand in the dirt-- especially on third downs, when it counts the most (one of the tops in the league for percentage of sacks coming on third down in '09). . .

yes, even though he's short. . . .

:rolleyes:


"yea, let's trade him because we might go back to a 4-3-- what would you do with a dwight freeney/robert mathis type of player in a 4-3??"

anybody? buehler?


:noidea:


yea. . . or you could play him at RDE in your base defense with ayers on the other side (draft pending), and rotate hunter with doom in short yardage situations. . . or put doom in a "joker" position sometimes, move him around as a more-or-less designated blitzer who can still drop out at times. . . and he's obviously going to be in on all of your nickel and dime snaps, regardless of alignment. . .

hell, even a dumb coordinator can figure out telling your best pass rusher to go after the quarterback-- unless the guy is bob slowick-level stoopid, in which case it doesn't amount to a fart in the wind what front we run or who we have in it. . .

people act like the double digit sacks you're likely to get from him won't be "good enough" if he doesn't play every friggin' down. . . it's not like keeping him a little fresher for when you need him most is a bad thing, come on now. . .

i admit, i do prefer staying with the 3-4, but a dominant edge rusher is a dominant edge rusher. . . and i promise you fox isn't stupid enough to trade away arguably his best young player-- unlike others that have been here. . .

ridiculous idea. . .

[cuzz4169]

Actually that's not true. It's a 50/50 split with fifteen 3-4 teams, fifteen 4-3 teams and two hybrid style teams.

Back to the issue at hand. Switching to the 4-3 would be utter lunacy. You take arguably your best defensive player that you just gave a huge contract too (Dumervil) and turn him into a situational pass rusher with the 4-3. Ayers would have to gain weight back to play the strongside DE and you still don't really have any real defensive tackles. You also lose two very solid linebackers in Haggan and Mays, would need to invest in a legit MLB since DJ would be back outside again.

Talk about a real cluster****.

I don't think it matters much though. Fox got his start working under Chuck Noll and the 3-4 Steelers and has openly spoke about his willingness to keep the 3-4. I'd be very surprised (and downright furious) if the 4-3 comes back.

Wrong wrong wrong...Was Doom a situational pass rusher before in the 4-3? no...so why would he be now? Ayers is still about 265lbs how much weight does he need??!! And why would he have to gain weight to play LE the best LE in the league is about 225lbs. Justin Bannan Started his career in buffalo as a 4-3 DT Marcus Thomas is a 4-3 DT and if we can get fairley thats a nice rotation or sign Big Albert. We have more 4-3 players than 3-4...bc our D-lineman who are 3-4 guys blow anyways.
On to the LBs if your a MLB you can play 3-4 or 4-3.....Mays was a MLB with the eagles in the 4-3.....Haggen was a SLB for the Bills 4-3 so whats the big deal?! And DJ who really cares I hope he's gone anyways..
All those players mentioned have at some point played in a 4-3 and will be fine in a 4-3....Vickerson, Williams, McBean & Fields are our 3-4 guys and all suck and should be cut anyways....So personnel wise we would have no problem going to a 4-3.

[dogfish]

seriously, come on now. . . who here watched the broncos the last two years?

we need to get MORE good pass rushers, not get rid of the only proven one we've got. . .


this shit makes my head hurt, somebody make me a bloody mary with a lot of pickles and hot sauce. . .


:prolongedfacepalm:

[Bosco]

Wrong wrong wrong...Was Doom a situational pass rusher before in the 4-3? no... Uhh, yeah he was. He was pretty average as a regular starting 4-3 end. He's just not big and strong enough to stand up to that role, wears down quickly and is basically useless in run support. In the 3-4, all of those weaknesses are minimized and he is the truly elite player we just gave a massive ******* contract to.


Ayers is still about 265lbs how much weight does he need??!!
At his height, back to his list weight of 275 would be about right.


Justin Bannan Started his career in buffalo as a 4-3 DT Marcus Thomas is a 4-3 DT Neither of them are very good in the 4-3 and work better as 3-4 ends. Thomas might make a decent 4-3 UT if you get a real NT to go along with him, but that's it.


We have more 4-3 players than 3-4...bc our D-lineman who are 3-4 guys blow anyways. By who's count? The way I see, in a 3-4 we need a starting NT depending on what happens with Jamal, one DE and a bunch of depth. One DE spot and all four linebacker spots are basically locked up for the time being. If you go 4-3 you need a new starter at RDE, a new starter at NT (depending on Jamal) a starter at UT, a starter at SAM and a starter at MIKE or WILL, depending on where you put D.J.

So when it comes to your front seven, do you want to have to fill 1/2 starting spots with your best, highly paid defensive player on the field for 3 downs or 4/5 starting spots with said player only on the field for 1 or 2 downs? Seems to me the answer is pretty clear.


On to the LBs if your a MLB you can play 3-4 or 4-3.....Mays was a MLB with the eagles in the 4-3.....Haggen was a SLB for the Bills 4-3 so whats the big deal?! Absolute hogwash. Haggan was a bubble player in the Bills 4-3. The Eagles, a team that's pretty damn good at talent evaluation, gave Mays away for a broken down running back because his coverage skills were far too poor even for a 2 down MIKE in the 4-3. It's not coincidence that both these guys started looking like starting quality players when they were put in a 3-4 defense.

Anyone who knows football is quite frankly going to be scared shitless at the prospect of either of those guys being starters in a 4-3 defense.


And DJ who really cares I hope he's gone anyways.. Despite your dismissive attitude towards him, he's a borderline Pro-Bowl talent with a substantial contract. He won't be going anywhere I don't think.

[MHCBill]

Sounds like a movie title.


Well, of course one of the things on all our minds is what type of defense we will run....the 4-3 which has been a mainstay in Carolina, or the 3-4.

Normally I would leave the thread to move forward as is, but the part of this that has me most interested in is Elvis Dumerville and what he means to us.

If we run a 4-3, Doom will not be the same guy as we all know. A 4-3 requires four stout defensive linemen, with two great edge rushers. This is an expensive defense. Even if you HAVE two great DEs, they will end up costing you an arm, a leg, a lung, a kidney and one eye. Doomerville will bring pressure, but will be more of a liability in the run game. If youre going to pay a DE, he needs to be effective no matter the down.

When it comes to running an effective 4-3, we dont have the personel. Ayers would need to play DE. Can he? I think so, but it still leaves alot desired.

So.....if you use Doom is a 4-3 and he goes back to the same stats as he had before in the 4-3, then he no longer is worth the money.

Which brings up possibly trading him.

Id say he wont be a trade commodity, but in this time of uncertainty due to the labor agreement, anything is possible.

Normally, he would be untradeable because his signing bonus would be accelerated immediately and the Broncos not only would eat the money, they would have to eat the cap space as well.

One of the things being talked about, is the lockout. But the league doesnt HAVE to lockout. They can move forward with the last best offer made. So if the league doesnt declare a lockout on March 4th, which wouldnt preclude them from doing so any time afterwards, there will be time to trade players whether for picks or anything.

This is important because what are the parameters?

If we no longer have cap space to be concerned about......which we dont at this point........that means you can trade Doom to a team, and simply have them accept the contract as is. If Doom has a clause that says his bonus must be paid to him immediately in full upon trade, then the team trading for him will either have to fork over the money, or get him to redo the contract for them along the same parameters that the Broncos had in place.

In other words, they simply accept the contract and ask Doom to accept payments the same way he would have gotten them from the Broncos.

Doom would have to bring a 1st and 3rd Im sure, or a high first for a 3-4 team.........that wont take place knowing hes coming off injury......which means settling for less.

Personally, I hope Fox sticks with Wink and the 3-4, because of personel and continuity for guys like Champ.

Thoughts?WOW War... seems like you changed your mind in the last couple days.

I post this thought provoking thread at another forum a few days ago, and War provides his answer below.

Theoretically... should we trade Dumervil?

Warhorse's post...
Waste of speculation. He just signed a huge contract. He wont be going anywhere. Or has anyone forgotten that we would eat his signing bonus?

Dooms not going anywhere.

[Ravage!!!]

Not sure Doom has lost much value. He was the NFL sack leader, and the injury wasn't a career-ending type of injury. So even though he didn't play last year, people k now the threat he is as a pass rusher.

But I promise you, that Orton is on the tradig block and wont' be a part of the team in 2011

[cuzz4169]

Uhh, yeah he was. He was pretty average as a regular starting 4-3 end. He's just not big and strong enough to stand up to that role, wears down quickly and is basically useless in run support. In the 3-4, all of those weaknesses are minimized and he is the truly elite player we just gave a massive ******* contract to.

Well if that's the case he's useless in pass coverage in a 3-4..Doom will be fine in either 3-4 or 4-3...what he did the past 3 years doesn't matter he's a better player than he was...Jesus he was a rookie 3 yrs ago.


At his height, back to his list weight of 275 would be about right.

250-255-260-265--Mathis is listed as 245lbs more like 225lbs, weight doesn't matter. Ayers is a DE...Denver trying to convert him to OLB was bad.


Neither of them are very good in the 4-3 and work better as 3-4 ends. Thomas might make a decent 4-3 UT if you get a real NT to go along with him, but that's it.

Those guys were all young players at that point in their careers and by the way you think they're good in a 3-4? none of them are special all just avg.


By who's count? The way I see, in a 3-4 we need a starting NT depending on what happens with Jamal, one DE and a bunch of depth. One DE spot and all four linebacker spots are basically locked up for the time being. If you go 4-3 you need a new starter at RDE, a new starter at NT (depending on Jamal) a starter at UT, a starter at SAM and a starter at MIKE or WILL, depending on where you put D.J.

so your saying basically bring back are same defense? that's insane! And all of the Linbackers can play in the 4-3 what don't you understand?



Absolute hogwash. Haggan was a bubble player in the Bills 4-3. The Eagles, a team that's pretty damn good at talent evaluation, gave Mays away for a broken down running back because his coverage skills were far too poor even for a 2 down MIKE in the 4-3. It's not coincidence that both these guys started looking like starting quality players when they were put in a 3-4 defense.

Haggen was in the first couple of years of his career with the Bills. Haggen is a LB doesn't matter 3-4 or 4-3. Haggen is your SLB in a 4-3. Linebacker is Linebacker I played in all 3-4 & 4-3...some LBs like 3-4 better and some like 4-3 better. Don't confuse guys that play LB in a 3-4 who are really DE's not LBs.


Anyone who knows football is quite frankly going to be scared shitless at the prospect of either of those guys being starters in a 4-3 defense.

I read somewhere that stink and big al also believe we have more 4-3 players on the roster also.


Despite your dismissive attitude towards him, he's a borderline Pro-Bowl talent with a substantial contract. He won't be going anywhere I don't think.

have fans missed this? ever since he's been our MLB our run defense has sucked. Im fine if they go to 4-3 and he's moved to WLB..But im also fine if he's traded and we go after David Harris...Remember DJ will probably be suspended nxt yr to. I would like to see Woodyard get a shot at WLB in a 4-3..yea he played a little as a MLB in the 3-4 but he's a WLB in a 4-3.

The only TRUE 3-4 players we have are Vickerson, Mcbean, Williams & Fields and they are all fringe players anyways. Don't forget Hunter can play DE also in 4-3.

[TXBRONC]

Fox himself said something to the effect he would have no problem running a 3-4 defense.

[TXBRONC]

All of r 3-4 base d-Lineman suck anyways...williams, Vickerson & Mcbean are all probably gonna get cut anyways.

If we stick with 3-4 I bet we keep Williams for at least another year.

[I Eat Staples]

Dumervil and Ayers are horrible fits for the 4-3.

[Cugel]

Sounds like a movie title.

Well, of course one of the things on all our minds is what type of defense we will run....the 4-3 which has been a mainstay in Carolina, or the 3-4.

Normally I would leave the thread to move forward as is, but the part of this that has me most interested in is Elvis Dumerville and what he means to us.

If we run a 4-3, Doom will not be the same guy as we all know. A 4-3 requires four stout defensive linemen, with two great edge rushers. This is an expensive defense. Even if you HAVE two great DEs, they will end up costing you an arm, a leg, a lung, a kidney and one eye. Doomerville will bring pressure, but will be more of a liability in the run game. If youre going to pay a DE, he needs to be effective no matter the down.

When it comes to running an effective 4-3, we dont have the personel. Ayers would need to play DE. Can he? I think so, but it still leaves alot desired.

So.....if you use Doom is a 4-3 and he goes back to the same stats as he had before in the 4-3, then he no longer is worth the money.

Which brings up possibly trading him.

Id say he wont be a trade commodity, but in this time of uncertainty due to the labor agreement, anything is possible.

Normally, he would be untradeable because his signing bonus would be accelerated immediately and the Broncos not only would eat the money, they would have to eat the cap space as well.

One of the things being talked about, is the lockout. But the league doesnt HAVE to lockout. They can move forward with the last best offer made. So if the league doesnt declare a lockout on March 4th, which wouldnt preclude them from doing so any time afterwards, there will be time to trade players whether for picks or anything.

This is important because what are the parameters?

If we no longer have cap space to be concerned about......which we dont at this point........that means you can trade Doom to a team, and simply have them accept the contract as is. If Doom has a clause that says his bonus must be paid to him immediately in full upon trade, then the team trading for him will either have to fork over the money, or get him to redo the contract for them along the same parameters that the Broncos had in place.

In other words, they simply accept the contract and ask Doom to accept payments the same way he would have gotten them from the Broncos.

Doom would have to bring a 1st and 3rd Im sure, or a high first for a 3-4 team.........that wont take place knowing hes coming off injury......which means settling for less.

Personally, I hope Fox sticks with Wink and the 3-4, because of personel and continuity for guys like Champ.

Thoughts?

#1 -- Trading the NFL's sack leader when you have the NFL's worst defense is not generally a good way to start rebuilding the defense! Fox has already stated that he's willing to coach the 3-4 hybrid if that's what is best suited to Denver's players. That means potentially moving Doom back to DE and using a 1-gap system.

#2 -- Without a CBA in place, teams will be MUCH more conservative in making trades than you are speculating here. In fact the consensus is that there will be NO veteran trades prior to the draft for this reason -- because as part of any trade normally the player has to get a new contract and you can't negotiate a new contract without some idea whether there's going to be a cap and how much it will be.

NO WAY Doom agrees to just stick with his current contract. If he gets traded that's his ticket to a BIG PAYDAY! He won't sign a new contract unless it's negotiated first, and probably he'd demand more of a signing bonus. That's normally the case. The deal he'd be willing to take to stay with the team that drafted him, is NOT the deal that he'll be willing to play under for another team!

Sure, it looks like a lot of money -- but it's absolutely MUCH LESS than he'd get as a FA! He'd probably be looking at something closer to what Albert Haynesworth got in D.C. (not quite as ridiculous $ of course, but how often does the NFL sack leader who's still young and fit come on the market?)

It would be like buying a house in anticipation of getting a big bonus, but not actually knowing IF you are going to get a bonus, or how large it will be. Would you do that? Probably not. :coffee:

[cuzz4169]

Dumervil and Ayers are horrible fits for the 4-3.

What!!?? Ayers is a DE he's a horrible LB..Dumervil has played DE all his life. He's nothing special as a complete OLB, guys he lines up at DE when he rushes the passer unless its a 3-4 base blitz..

[cuzz4169]

markschlereth mark schlereth
I love the John Fox hire in Denver the exact opposite of the past coach. Older/wiser and a defensive guy. Fox is a 4-3 guy and Denver cont...Has run a 3-4. I feel the players they have are better suited to play a 4-3 so that a great fit as well!

Mark Schlereth's Twitter.

I agree 100%

[I Eat Staples]

What!!?? Ayers is a DE he's a horrible LB..Dumervil has played DE all his life. He's nothing special as a complete OLB, guys he lines up at DE when he rushes the passer unless its a 3-4 base blitz..

Dumervil is small and a liability against the run. Good edge rusher, not a good DE. And honestly you might be right about Ayers but he hasn't shown anything to make us believe he can be a good OLB or DE.

[Bosco]

Well if that's the case he's useless in pass coverage in a 3-4.. 3-4 WOLB's have very, very little pass coverage responsibility. They are essentially rush ends. Doom is an elite player here and is more than capable of handling what little pass coverage responsibilities he would have.


Those guys were all young players at that point in their careers and by the way you think they're good in a 3-4? none of them are special all just avg. I'm quite aware of how average they are and how less than average they are in the 4-3. Granted that's like arguing whether you'd rather have a golden shower or a Cleveland steamer, but this team needs all it can get.


so your saying basically bring back are same defense? that's insane! Since when have the linebackers been our problem? Ayers, Doom and D.J are all very good in the system. Hunter, Woodyard and Haggan are good rotational players and Mays was looking like a legitimate starter at SILB before he went on IR. We have a good corps of linebackers, now we just need to get some legitimate linemen in front of them so that pulling guards aren't getting to the 2nd level with such ease.


And all of the Linbackers can play in the 4-3 what don't you understand? I've already shown this to be false in both Haggan and Mays case. Do you have some kind of actual football argument to make your point, or are you limited to "nuh uh!" here?


Haggen was in the first couple of years of his career with the Bills. He spent five years in Buffalo and a 6th in Bob Slowik's 4-3 defense. That's well beyond the initial developmental stage for football players. Then Denver sticks him in a 3-4 defense and his production increases by three and four fold. Try explaining that in any thing beyond us finding a scheme that fit him.


Haggen is your SLB in a 4-3. Wonderful. I'm absolutely looking forward to the prospect of Haggan trying to cover Antonio Gates and Zach Miller down the field, or Sproles and McCluster out in the flat.

That should be real ******* funny.


Linebacker is Linebacker I played in all 3-4 & 4-3... I hate to break it to you but there is a pretty substantial difference between your division B high school team and intricate NFL defenses. Thanks for sharing that little tidbit though. At least I see where this strange logic is coming from.


have fans missed this? ever since he's been our MLB our run defense has sucked. And that's all the result of one player, right?


Remember DJ will probably be suspended nxt yr to. Maybe a couple games, at most.

[cuzz4169]

Dumervil is small and a liability against the run. Good edge rusher, not a good DE. And honestly you might be right about Ayers but he hasn't shown anything to make us believe he can be a good OLB or DE.

I agree about Ayers...But how many of the Top DE's are studs against the run? Peppers and Williams for sure the rest are ok...all Dumervil has to be is ok not a stud against the run. I disagree about him being a liability if thats the case he's a bigger liability against the pass at OLB.

[Bosco]

all Dumervil has to be is ok not a stud against the run. And he can't even do that as a 4-3 end, hence why he was nothing more than a situational player there. You can't relegate him to that role now with that massive contract he has.

[I Eat Staples]

I agree about Ayers...But how many of the Top DE's are studs against the run? Peppers and Williams for sure the rest are ok...all Dumervil has to be is ok not a stud against the run. I disagree about him being a liability if thats the case he's a bigger liability against the pass at OLB.

I don't think he's even okay against the run, but you're probably right about him being a liability against the pass in a 3-4. This is why I wasn't happy about the amount of money we payed him.

But oh well, his specialty gets big money in this league.

[cuzz4169]

3-4 WOLB's have very, very little pass coverage responsibility. They are essentially rush ends. Doom is an elite player here and is more than capable of handling what little pass coverage responsibilities he would have.

Agree but he is also fine as a DE sorry


I'm quite aware of how average they are and how less than average they are in the 4-3. Granted that's like arguing whether you'd rather have a golden shower or a Cleveland steamer, but this team needs all it can get.

Who was less average?


Since when have the linebackers been our problem? Ayers, Doom and D.J are all very good in the system. Hunter, Woodyard and Haggan are good rotational players and Mays was looking like a legitimate starter at SILB before he went on IR. We have a good corps of linebackers, now we just need to get some legitimate linemen in front of them so that pulling guards aren't getting to the 2nd level with such ease.

Linebacker is a big problem! Ayers is not a good player at OLB, DJ is avg. Where is our stud LB yea Doom as a pass rusher...where is our complete LB I know you will say DJ the most overrated player on our defense.


I've already shown this to be false in both Haggan and Mays case. Do you have some kind of actual football argument to make your point, or are you limited to "nuh uh!" here?

Mays is in his third year...Was loved as a 4-3 MLB just needed to learn pass coverage, still very young...Haggen was lost in Buffalo Became a starter in Denver but not bc we run a 3-4 if we ran a 4-3 he would be a starter @ SLB if remember correctly Haggan was used in coverage a lot on TEs. But he's still a slightly above avg player no matter what system.


He spent five years in Buffalo and a 6th in Bob Slowik's 4-3 defense. That's well beyond the initial developmental stage for football players. Then Denver sticks him in a 3-4 defense and his production increases by three and four fold. Try explaining that in any thing beyond us finding a scheme that fit him.

Can't explain Haggen but they're are many players who it takes a minute for them to get a break...he got his break and I don't think it matters for him if he's in a 3-4 or 4-3 sorry.


Wonderful. I'm absolutely looking forward to the prospect of Haggan trying to cover Antonio Gates and Zach Miller down the field, or Sproles and McCluster out in the flat.

That should be real ******* funny.

Think he's done it.


I hate to break it to you but there is a pretty substantial difference between your division B high school team and intricate NFL defenses. Thanks for sharing that little tidbit though. At least I see where this strange logic is coming from.

Well if you knew me you could say that, but sorry I played at a higher level than just high school. Probably one of very few on here who has been payed to play.


And that's all the result of one player, right? No...But having a Stud MLB helps a lot...If Ray Lewis was here would our run d be as bad? Or even Al Wilson?


Maybe a couple games, at most.

4 games for DJ....Trade him why he has some value....

I'd would bet the house Denver goes to a 4-3

[cuzz4169]

And he can't even do that as a 4-3 end, hence why he was nothing more than a situational player there. You can't relegate him to that role now with that massive contract he has.

Doom was the starting DE in a 4-3 for the broncos. Show me where he wasn't and show me where he was a situational player besides his rookie year. If we get talent around him that could stop the run its not a big deal. Jarred Allen is nothing special at stopping the run but he has 2 DTs next to him that help a lot. We draft Fairley and some how sign Albert Haynesworth I doubt it will matter.

[Dzone]

we can forget about rob ryan
Jay_Glazer Jay Glazer
Dallas is right now trying to work out a contract for Rob Ryan to become new coordinator of the Cowboys

[Agent of Orange]

Not sure Doom has lost much value. He was the NFL sack leader, and the injury wasn't a career-ending type of injury. So even though he didn't play last year, people k now the threat he is as a pass rusher.

But I promise you, that Orton is on the tradig block and wont' be a part of the team in 2011

Normally this would probably be correct but the CBA throughs a monkey wrench into things. It kind of sucks that this, out of all years, is the year where the CBA is clouding our ability to move forward.

[JDL]

What!!?? Ayers is a DE he's a horrible LB..Dumervil has played DE all his life. He's nothing special as a complete OLB, guys he lines up at DE when he rushes the passer unless its a 3-4 base blitz..

Exactly! Spot On.

[Dzone]

Just think if Ayers somehow becomes a late bloomer, becomes a beast at DE and we pick up Fairley and he immediately steps in, we get Joe Mays and Dumervil back maybe we keep champ..suddenly its a whole new world

[I Eat Staples]

Just think if Ayers somehow becomes a late bloomer, becomes a beast at DE and we pick up Fairley and he immediately steps in, we get Joe Mays and Dumervil back maybe we keep champ..suddenly its a whole new world

Mays becomes almost useless in a 4-3.

[cuzz4169]

Mays becomes almost useless in a 4-3.

Lol your out of your mind....explain to me the difference in the MLB in the 3-4 and 4-3. So your saying that only some MLB in the league can play in a 3-4 and some in a 4-3 hahaha to funny.

[BeefStew25]

Mays becomes almost useless in a 4-3.

Shut your mouth. Mays is built like a Greek god. And is a good man.

[BeefStew25]

Guys watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dk6UBiESjao&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[cuzz4169]

Guys watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dk6UBiESjao&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Thats a Denver MLB not DJ Williams!!! Al Wilson was a beast!!!!