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View Full Version : Should The Broncos Re-Sign Champ Bailey And Move Him To Safety?



Cugel
01-06-2011, 02:34 PM
Elway said in his interview that he "liked" Champ Bailey, but that he would have to sit down with Xanders and the new coach and "see where we're at" before extending Bailey a contract.

Champ has indicated that he WON'T take a "pay cut" to remain with the team and that the MAIN factor influencing his decision to remain in Denver will be how quickly the Broncos can return to the playoffs. He obviously wants a chance at a championship ring.

But, in an interview with Len Pasquarelli at last summer Champ said that he'd eventually like to move to safety to prolong his career.


In a Tip Sheet piece for Len Pasquarelli ESPN.com, Broncos cornerback Champ Bailey revealed that he intends to eventually convert to safety in order to prolong his NFL career.

Bailey’s current agenda, however, involves securing a payday that would align him with the top NFL cornerbacks’ salaries for “another three or four seasons.”
(http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/06/27/champ-bailey-wont-give-broncos-hometown-discount/)
This presents a dilemma for the Broncos, who are scheduled to pay Bailey $13 million in 2010, the last year of his contract. While Bailey is by all accounts still playing at an extremely high level, he is 32 years old and likely behind contract-year linebacker Elvis Dumervil in G.M. Brian Xanders’ pecking order for long-term commitments.

The Broncos current offer to Bailey was rescinded, so it might be a moot point. They might just let him go via FA (which would be a total slap in the face to the fans who expect this team to compete anytime soon).

But, his contract could probably be reworked to make it more "cap-friendly" by giving him a signing bonus that would be pro-rated over the life of the contract (perhaps 5 years).

So that's probably doable IF the team wants to commit that much money to Champ. The problem is that they know his skills as a #1 CB are declining and by the next 4 years he might not be worth what they are committed to paying him.

My thought would be to draft Patrick Peterson to replace Champ, let him be the #2 CB for a season to learn behind Champ, and then move him up to #1 CB in 2012, while moving Champ over to FS where he would play the same role as Ed Reed did with the Ravens -- a great cover safety.

The problem with this is that you're paying him an awful lot of money for a FS. But, he'd undoubtedly be one of the best FS in football. He has great range and can cover anybody.

And he could "poach" and would probably get a lot more picks as a safety. It would be a real problem for QBs having to watch where Bailey was lining up to avoid having him step in front of the WR and pick off the ball -- he has as good hands as any WR in football.

Teams would NOT be able to avoid him by throwing to the other side of the field anymore.

Normally teams can't have a guy like Champ as a safety for 2 reasons.

#1 -- They need their best cover guys at CB and don't have enough good ones to "waste" one at safety. But, if the Broncos drafted Peterson, they'd have their #1 CB set for 2012 and could move Andre Goodman back to #2 (he'd be the #3 CB for 2011). Or else they could get rid of Goodman and get another #2 CB somewhere (they are much less expensive than #1 CBs).

#2 -- The salary range for S is MUCH less than $13 million (or even whatever they'd re-negotiate his contract to).

But, Denver is severely LACKING in their secondary, especially with Dawkins likely retiring, and a move like this might greatly strengthen them for the next 5 years or so.

Champ might NOT be able to be the #1 CB at 35 or 36 (he's 32 now). But, there's no reason he couldn't still be a great S then. That might mean there's a greater possibility he could usefully play out his contract, which would make it easier to avoid a big cap hit in giving him an extended contract with a big signing bonus now.

What do you guys think about this. Is this worth the money he'd get?

PAINTERDAVE
01-06-2011, 02:35 PM
If they could get him to sign the same reasonable offer sheet they had for him before..
that would be fine.

That offer was months after the article you cited...
it was lower than what you talked of here...
and Bailey was en route to signing it when it was pulled.

BORDERLINE
01-06-2011, 02:36 PM
he is still a top flight CB....

in two years you can make the change to safety and he will dominate there

Clipworthy
01-06-2011, 02:40 PM
are you crazy? he's got maybe 2 years as a great corner left in him baring an injury

TXBRONC
01-06-2011, 02:40 PM
I pretty sure Champ would make a good safety.

Northman
01-06-2011, 02:41 PM
Well, its not a reasonable question.

1) Champ will have to agree to the contract offered if he thinks its fair or not.

2) He will have to WANT to move to safety.

shank
01-06-2011, 02:48 PM
Well, its not a reasonable question.

1) Champ will have to agree to the contract offered if he thinks its fair or not.

2) He will have to WANT to move to safety.

i thought i remembered reading that the deal we had on the table was front-loaded, with the later years of the contract paying less, in anticipation of a move to safety. maybe i just made that up.

all i know is i want champ to be a denver bronco. bringing in peterson would be pretty awesome too, though the DL needs more help. if we're going BPA, though, peterson is probably that guy...

rationalfan
01-06-2011, 02:49 PM
are you crazy? he's got maybe 2 years as a great corner left in him baring an injury

sorry, i didn't realize you knew the future. i'll make sure champ gets the news.

EMB6903
01-06-2011, 02:50 PM
I think Champ would become a top 5 safety the second he decides to start playing it.

Great run support, ball hawk, great ball skills.

At this point in his career I think he'd be more valuable as a safety other then CB.

topscribe
01-06-2011, 02:55 PM
I think Champ would make a wonderful safety. But why? He is still the best CB
in football. Seriously, he literally shut down most of the WRs who are going to
the Pro Bowl, and he surrendered exactly zero TDs.

I'm all for re-signing Champ, but as a cornerback . . .

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Northman
01-06-2011, 02:56 PM
i thought i remembered reading that the deal we had on the table was front-loaded, with the later years of the contract paying less, in anticipation of a move to safety. maybe i just made that up.

Certainly possible, i dont remember any specifics about the contract and although i would love to keep him it got pulled for a reason so something happened that somebody didnt like.


all i know is i want champ to be a denver bronco. bringing in peterson would be pretty awesome too, though the DL needs more help. if we're going BPA, though, peterson is probably that guy...

I will have a meltdown if we draft Peterson. Not because he isnt a great player but this team needs Dline help far more than DB help. This team is in a poor state and cant afford to draft guys who arent going to make a difference right away. We already have one of the best DB's in the game and yet our defense is one of the worst in the league. You only go for BPA when you can afford to do so. Denver isnt one of those teams and doenst have that luxury.

EMB6903
01-06-2011, 02:57 PM
Bowe scored on Bailey this year.

Northman
01-06-2011, 03:00 PM
Bowe scored on Bailey this year.

And? He's a solid reciever so im not sure what your point is.

topscribe
01-06-2011, 03:03 PM
And? He's a solid reciever so im not sure what your point is.

He's correcting me, and he's right. Champ did give up one TD this year. It
was last year that he surrendered no TDs.

So that makes for one hell of a drop in performance, right? :laugh:

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Northman
01-06-2011, 03:05 PM
He's correcting me, and he's right. Champ did give up one TD this year. It
was last year that he surrendered no TDs.

So that makes for one hell of a drop in performance, right? :laugh:

-----

Ahhhhhhhh. Shame on Champ. :lol:

EMB6903
01-06-2011, 03:09 PM
The thing that impressed me most with Champ this year was his rematch against Bowe.

Even though Denver did lose that game Champ made it certain that Bowe wasnt gonna have a good day vs him again..

A true professional who I hope retires a Bronco.

UnderArmour
01-06-2011, 03:13 PM
Well, its not a reasonable question.

1) Champ will have to agree to the contract offered if he thinks its fair or not.

2) He will have to WANT to move to safety.

Um, we're talking about CHAMP BAILEY not Albert Haynesworth. Champ will play whatever the hell the coaches tell him to play once he's under contract.

Italianmobstr7
01-06-2011, 03:14 PM
I'm cool w drafting Peterson. Champ still needs to stay at CB. He's still a top notch CB. No reason to move him to safety

Northman
01-06-2011, 03:16 PM
Um, we're talking about CHAMP BAILEY not Albert Haynesworth. Champ will play whatever the hell the coaches tell him to play once he's under contract.


Dont be so sure. Do i think he would make as much a ruckus as Fat Albert? No.

But, if Shaw was right about the contract having the wording of Champ playing safety and then it got pulled then maybe thats something Champ has changed his mind on. Even the best and nicest players in the league sometimes dont want to do something.

topscribe
01-06-2011, 03:19 PM
Dont be so sure. Do i think he would make as much a ruckus as Fat Albert? No.

But, if Shaw was right about the contract having the wording of Champ playing safety and then it got pulled then maybe thats something Champ has changed his mind on. Even the best and nicest players in the league sometimes dont want to do something.

Champ did indicate he is open to moving to safety, but he added that he
didn't think he was yet ready for that . . .

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Northman
01-06-2011, 03:22 PM
Champ did indicate he is open to moving to safety, but he added that he
didn't think he was yet ready for that . . .

-----

I realize this but thats why i say he may have actually changed his mind depending on how the contract was spelled out. Maybe it was just a money issue i dont know. But i wont assume he will move to safety as players change their minds all the time.

topscribe
01-06-2011, 03:27 PM
I realize this but thats why i say he may have actually changed his mind depending on how the contract was spelled out. Maybe it was just a money issue i dont know. But i wont assume he will move to safety as players change their minds all the time.

Well, only Champ really knows whether he can keep up with the receivers.
But if we are worried about his speed, Champ really impressed me on one play
against the Chiefs where Charles broke one (of his several :( ). Champ was
too far away to run Charles down, but he ended up right behind him, and
Charles could not create any space from Champ. So, if Champ has lost a half-
step from his original 4.19, he probably can manage only a 4.35 or 4.42
now. Horrors! :shocked:

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Cugel
01-06-2011, 07:57 PM
Champ did indicate he is open to moving to safety, but he added that he
didn't think he was yet ready for that . . . .-----

My point was that he would stay at CB for next season, and then move over to S in 2012 when he would be 34.

My point is that Denver has NEVER had a great cover safety since Steve Awater -- they've had John Lynch and Brian Dawkins -- prototypical STRONG safeties who are not particularly FAST and not great cover guys, but who were excellent in run support and hammered WRs coming over the middle.

Champ would be that Ed Reed type FS who has excellent cover skills. You wouldn't have to worry about him in any coverage situation, and if he weren't the #1 CB we'd need a new one -- hence Patrick Peterson.

As for fixing the DL first, that does NOT mean taking just ANYBODY at #2 if they're not WORTH that pick!

What if, now that Luck is staying in school (the moron!) the Panthers take DE Bowers? Now the Broncos are on the clock.

How do they rate Nick Fairley? He's had ONE great season, but before that he wasn't all that much. Is he really worth that #2 pick? What about his off-field issues? Who else is really worth that pick? They don't need a QB or OT.

For anybody who thinks the Broncos can't "afford" to take the best player available" -- who the hell are you kidding? :coffee:

They have nothing BUT needs and you don't draft by the BIGGEST NEED, but you evaluate who is the BEST PLAYER at a position of need available!

Well the ENTIRE DEFENSE is ALL "positions of need!" There are no "not a position of need."

The Broncos could seriously draft:

NT
DT
DE
OLB
ILB
S
CB

as long as the player was worth the pick, and slot the guy right into the defense. Outside Champ Bailey and Dumervil there is NOT ONE PLAYER who can't be replaced with a better one! So, go right ahead and draft whoever is the best player -- secure in the knowledge that they have MORE NEEDS than they can fill at this point.

They can always draft a 3-4 DE in the 2nd or later rounds you know. They mostly are designed to soak up blockers. The Steelers got their DE Brett Keisel in the 7th round, and his backup Nick Eason was drafted by the Broncos in the 4th round. Their highest drafted DE was Ziggy Hood, taken 32nd in 2009.

And the Steelers' 3-4 has been among the top of the NFL for years. So, don't pretend we desperately need to use the #2 pick of the entire draft on a 3-4 DE!

As for a NT there's not ONE in the entire draft worthy of the #2 pick. Taking one there would be a HUGE REACH -- the one thing we CANNOT afford.

broken12
01-06-2011, 07:59 PM
resign champ and play him were he is best fit, if that at corner fine if free safety great, dont matter guy is still good enough for cb,

BigSarge87
01-06-2011, 09:25 PM
I would have a semi for a week if this happened.

One factor that hasn't been mentioned on this thread yet but everyone already knows is that he's one of the best open field tacklers EVER. Dude rarely misses a tackle. He would provide unbelievable run support right off the bat. Also, depending on the defensive philosophy, I would imagine he'll get many more opportunities to blitz.

I just got chills.

EDIT: I guess he would more likely be playing FS, but I don't know why he wouldn't be a stud at either position, unless he just didn't want to take the hits a SS takes.

Lancane
01-06-2011, 09:36 PM
Champ Bailey has already openly stated that he wants to switch to the safety position to prolong his career. I don’t see him having a problem switching to safety as soon as next season and he’s not some bitchy-whinny player to make a fuss. I think he wants to return, I really do, but now it’s up to the front office to get back to the table or not.

topscribe
01-06-2011, 09:48 PM
I would have a semi for a week if this happened.

One factor that hasn't been mentioned on this thread yet but everyone already knows is that he's one of the best open field tacklers EVER. Dude rarely misses a tackle. He would provide unbelievable run support right off the bat. Also, depending on the defensive philosophy, I would imagine he'll get many more opportunities to blitz.

I just got chills.

EDIT: I guess he would more likely be playing FS, but I don't know why he wouldn't be a stud at either position, unless he just didn't want to take the hits a SS takes.

You would seem to have a point there. It seems that so many are pointing
to declining athletic abilities that would force a CB to the safety position.
But we need to realize that safeties can be superior athletes. Look at Reed.
Look at Polamalu (sp?). Look at Woodson.

If Champ is moved to safety, I would look at it as a dramatic upgrade to
safety, rather than moving a player because of declining abilities . . .

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Tned
01-06-2011, 09:56 PM
Well, its not a reasonable question.

1) Champ will have to agree to the contract offered if he thinks its fair or not.

2) He will have to WANT to move to safety.

I don't think the one more year and move to safety holds any water, but Champ's agent is on record saying that Champ would like a front end heavy, back end light contract with the thought that he would play 3-4 more years at CB and then transition to safety, where he would expect to make less money (I'm obviously paraphrasing).

Champ is clearly still playing at an elite level. There is no way to know if he will remain one of the top CBs in the league for another year, or four, but 2-4 years is a good bet.

BigSarge87
01-06-2011, 10:15 PM
This just makes way too much sense for everyone. I hope they can convince Champ they're going in the right direction and pay the man.

Another thin to point out is that Champ seems to really like playing on the same team as Tebow. Not that that would be a factor in him staying, but it does show you he's completely sincere about staying in Denver if the situation is right.

topscribe
01-06-2011, 10:26 PM
This just makes way too much sense for everyone. I hope they can convince Champ they're going in the right direction and pay the man.

Another thin to point out is that Champ seems to really like playing on the same team as Tebow. Not that that would be a factor in him staying, but it does show you he's completely sincere about staying in Denver if the situation is right.

Oh, I doubt Champ is a Tebow groupie like so many here. :laugh:

A perfunctory compliment is not to be taken seriously. Champ is out for
Champ. He wants a chance at a SB. He doesn't care if Brady Quinn is the QB.

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BigSarge87
01-06-2011, 10:50 PM
Oh, I doubt Champ is a Tebow groupie like so many here. :laugh:

A perfunctory compliment is not to be taken seriously. Champ is out for
Champ. He wants a chance at a SB. He doesn't care if Brady Quinn is the QB.

------

He deserves a little more credit than that. Obviously he wants to play for a contender and wants the contract he feels he deserves, but if he was only about that he would have demanded a trade a long time ago.

He said he wants to stay in Denver first and foremost. I think he's earned the benefit of the doubt.

topscribe
01-06-2011, 11:47 PM
He deserves a little more credit than that. Obviously he wants to play for a contender and wants the contract he feels he deserves, but if he was only about that he would have demanded a trade a long time ago.

He said he wants to stay in Denver first and foremost. I think he's earned the benefit of the doubt.

Don't give me that crap. Champ is not going to idolize a 22-year-old tyro in the NFL. :lol:

(Please excuse me. Part of this may be the brandy speaking. Reminds me of
a Gunsmoke episode. Marshall Dillon was asked whether this drunk who was
challenging him would draw on him. He replied, "I don't think he would, but
his whiskey might." Beware of the sop who challenges you. :lol: )

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BigSarge87
01-07-2011, 12:19 AM
Don't give me that crap. Champ is not going to idolize a 22-year-old tyro in the NFL. :lol:

(Please excuse me. Part of this may be the brandy speaking. Reminds me of
a Gunsmoke episode. Marshall Dillon was asked whether this drunk who was
challenging him would draw on him. He replied, "I don't think he would, but
his whiskey might." Beware of the sop who challenges you. :lol: )

-----

HA HA, no problem! I've been lurking around this site long enough to know what you drink at night.

Back to the point, I didn't say he wanted to lick Tebow's cup clean (I love that one), I just said he expressed interest in seeing what happens with him and I don't think he's ever given us a reason to doubt his sincerity.

Sorry, I don't know what a tyro is. Still awake? LOL

topscribe
01-07-2011, 12:23 AM
HA HA, no problem! I've been lurking around this site long enough to know what your all about.

Back to the point, I didn't say he wanted to lick Tebow's cup clean (I love that one), I just said he expressed interest in seeing what happens with him and I don't think he's ever given us a reason to doubt his sincerity.

Sorry, I don't know what a tyro is. Still awake? LOL

So what the **** am I all about? I don't even know. http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/BIGrofl2-1.gif

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BigSarge87
01-07-2011, 12:31 AM
There, fixed my post.

Lonestar
01-07-2011, 01:46 AM
I think they should resign him because he showed what he can do in teh last few games.

I suspect down the road a few years he may want to play safety..

Can't thin of a better place to retire.

It would be a great boon to the team to have one of its Leaders back on the team next year.

DenBronx
01-14-2013, 12:27 PM
I pretty sure Champ would make a good safety.

Ok we hash this out all the time. And I really don't know right now if this would be good or not for Champ and the team.

But yesterday I saw a much slower Champ than I have ever saw. Torry Smith is a very fast WR but when did that ever stop Champ before? It was uncharacteristic by Bailey yes but it was happening the whole game. In fact games earlier in the year I saw Champ get beat alot and sometimes the QBs didnt even know it, well because they don't look Champs way too much. But Champ did get exposed.

Picture Porter coming back next year. I dont think Porter would be a good safety but I do want the best players on the field and I think Porter, when healthy, is a damn good CB. So keep Porter and Harris as our two CBs on the outside. I think Harris would be the best option at safety but I think Champ would be even better than he is now because he would have more time to make his adjustments on the WRs. Champ does know the position and I believe it would be an easy transition.

Rahim Moore actually played well this year and he choose the worst game of the year to have such a costly mistake but I want our team to be elite, not just good. But I think Champ would do better as a FS rather than a SS.

Earlier in the year I was really against the idea but after what I saw against the Ravens then I'm not so sure anymore. This could all be moot if Porter can not recover and won't be healthy.

TXBRONC
01-14-2013, 12:36 PM
Ok we hash this out all the time. And I really don't know right now if this would be good or not for Champ and the team.

But yesterday I saw a much slower Champ than I have ever saw. Torry Smith is a very fast WR but when did that ever stop Champ before? It was uncharacteristic by Bailey yes but it was happening the whole game. In fact games earlier in the year I saw Champ get beat alot and sometimes the QBs didnt even know it, well because they don't look Champs way too much. But Champ did get exposed.

Picture Porter coming back next year. I dont think Porter would be a good safety but I do want the best players on the field and I think Porter, when healthy, is a damn good CB. So keep Porter and Harris as our two CBs on the outside. I think Harris would be the best option at safety but I think Champ would be even better than he is now because he would have more time to make his adjustments on the WRs. Champ does know the position and I believe it would be an easy transition.

Rahim Moore actually played well this year and he choose the worst game of the year to have such a costly mistake but I want our team to be elite, not just good. But I think Champ would do better as a FS rather than a SS.

Earlier in the year I was really against the idea but after what I saw against the Ravens then I'm not so sure anymore. This could all be moot if Porter can not recover and won't be healthy.

Having one bad doesn't mean he can't corner anymore. Porter when healthy is solid corner but I don't think he's going be sticking around. Harris and Carter have proven they can play.

DenBronx
01-14-2013, 12:56 PM
Having one bad doesn't mean he can't corner anymore. Porter when healthy is solid corner but I don't think he's going be sticking around. Harris and Carter have proven they can play.

True but I have seen Porter make some game changing plays as a CB. Harris and Porter both can create turnovers, that's something I see Champ do rarely nowdays. Champ is good bump and run, deflecting passes and tackling but he has been getting burned this season. Like I said the QBs might not even notice because they don't looks Champs way a whole lot but I do notice even if the play didnt happen.

For the logevity of his career and to give his older legs less pressure it might be better for him to evaluate from furhter back.

I doubt Porter will be back though and Rahim Moore was actually good the whole year until that very very costly play. I'm on the fence still because I don't really know but I hope the Broncos at least entertain the idea.

Dawkins would have been huge this year!!!

NightTerror218
01-14-2013, 01:14 PM
I think Saturdays game was a bad match up for Champ. I think he should have been on Boldin and Harris on Smith. Smith is mostly about running seam routes down the field and tries to out pace defense. That is his play and since the Ravens have that deep threat they have been a much better team offensively.

The bad plays by Moore i would write up as inexperienced play. He has improved a lot of the season. I just would like to see him play mistake free.

Nomad
01-14-2013, 01:17 PM
I think Saturdays game was a bad match up for Champ. I think he should have been on Boldin and Harris on Smith. Smith is mostly about running seam routes down the field and tries to out pace defense. That is his play and since the Ravens have that deep threat they have been a much better team offensively.

The bad plays by Moore i would write up as inexperienced play. He has improved a lot of the season. I just would like to see him play mistake free.

In a perfect world...yes.

NightTerror218
01-14-2013, 01:21 PM
In a perfect world...yes.

He is still young and had a rough rookie year. He improved over season. I would love to see him play like Seattl's Earl Thomas

DenBronx
01-14-2013, 01:24 PM
Boldins more physical though and thats why they had Harris on him. Harris is the stongest of all the CBs and gets physical with WRs. Thats why Champ didnt cover Boldin but yeah I think Harris could run with Smith. It might have been a better idea to adjust to that after the half.

NightTerror218
01-14-2013, 01:25 PM
Boldins more physical though and thats why they had Harris on him. Harris is the stongest of all the CBs and gets physical with WRs. Thats why Champ didnt cover Boldin but yeah I think Harris could run with Smith. It might have been a better idea to adjust to that after the half.

Champ has covered several other big WRs this year, since when can he not be physical?

weazel
01-14-2013, 01:58 PM
Bailey say's he wont take a pay cut and has not thought about playing safety... so no, I dont think they should resign him. Why pay a guy top tier money when the guy is getting old and slow? Its only going to get worse.

Joel
01-14-2013, 02:38 PM
Duh, we should've done it last year when he was just a beat late to pick off Rapistburger in the endzone to prevent THAT playoff game reaching OT. Chris Harris is his heir apparent; he's a brutal hitter but, unlike Rahim Moore, doesn't routinely whiff tackles or blow coverages. He's a CB in the mold of Champ Bailey, so we should play him like one and let Champ do what HoF CBs have always done as they aged: Move to safety, where their experience, play recognition and anticipation of where the ball is going is the top priority, and their diminishing speed is less of a vulnerability. Then we make Porter and Carter fight for the other starting CB spot and put the loser at nickel/dime with Leonhard. Instead of drafting or spending lots of money on a solution to the Moore and Champ problems, we let the latter solve the fomer and Harris solve the latter at no cost. A lot better than spending the money for another Porter/Florence/Adams/Leonhard combo just so we can release one at the end of preseason and put another on the bench.

This ain't rocket surgery, folks. ;)

TXBRONC
01-14-2013, 04:58 PM
Duh, we should've done it last year when he was just a beat late to pick off Rapistburger in the endzone to prevent THAT playoff game reaching OT. Chris Harris is his heir apparent; he's a brutal hitter but, unlike Rahim Moore, doesn't routinely whiff tackles or blow coverages. He's a CB in the mold of Champ Bailey, so we should play him like one and let Champ do what HoF CBs have always done as they aged: Move to safety, where their experience, play recognition and anticipation of where the ball is going is the top priority, and their diminishing speed is less of a vulnerability. Then we make Porter and Carter fight for the other starting CB spot and put the loser at nickel/dime with Leonhard. Instead of drafting or spending lots of money on a solution to the Moore and Champ problems, we let the latter solve the fomer and Harris solve the latter at no cost. A lot better than spending the money for another Porter/Florence/Adams/Leonhard combo just so we can release one at the end of preseason and put another on the bench.

This ain't rocket surgery, folks. ;)

Did you watch any games this season? Because your post doesn't fit with anything that happened this season. Champ was solid all season long.

You also realize that Leonhard was never intended to be starter nor is being paid like one. Before you start talking about what these guys are being paid maybe you should know the numbers. As you said it aint rocket surgery. ;) Btw Porter and Leonhard will be free agents this years. You also realize that Adams started the entire season if wasn't any good wouldn't started?

Poet
01-15-2013, 04:55 AM
He's correcting me, and he's right. Champ did give up one TD this year. It
was last year that he surrendered no TDs.

So that makes for one hell of a drop in performance, right? :laugh:

-----

FWIW I think Champ is a stud but Green got a TD on him as well. He's not the best corner in football. He can't cover the speedsters anymore.

Joel
01-15-2013, 05:18 AM
Did you watch any games this season? Because your post doesn't fit with anything that happened this season. Champ was solid all season long.
Yeah, I did, and while Champ is still good, he's no longer the shutdown corner he once was. People throw at him now, and get completions, albeit usually not big ones because he's still a phenomenal tackler with great instincts. In years past all but the best avoided him like the plague he was, and he got picks when they didn't; he frequently got picks even when they DID. Those days are gone.


You also realize that Leonhard was never intended to be starter nor is being paid like one. Before you start talking about what these guys are being paid maybe you should know the numbers. As you said it aint rocket surgery. ;) Btw Porter and Leonhard will be free agents this years. You also realize that Adams started the entire season if wasn't any good wouldn't started?
Brooking and Koppen were never intended to be and aren't being paid like starters either; what's your point? Porter and Leonhard will be FAs this year because they only signed one year deals: That's the exact same situation we were in with Harris last year when I was terrified we wouldn't re-sign him; I think we can all agree it's a darned good thing we did. I have no problem with Adams, just the opposite; that's why I'd start him and Champ in tandem, put Harris opposite whichever of Porter/Carter can win that job, and put the loser at nickel/dime with Leonhard.

I didn't reference the money to criticize Adams or Leonhard, but Porter and Florence: We paid a fair amount of money for FOUR FA DBs, and one has spent most of the year on the bench while another was released before the regular season started. I prefer moving Champ to safety and starting Porter/Carter opposite Harris to filling our holes at FS and CB by spending millions on a bunch of FA DBs but only using half of them.

Poet
01-15-2013, 05:20 AM
I quoted a post over a year old because I'm stupid. ><

TXBRONC
01-15-2013, 07:12 AM
Yeah, I did, and while Champ is still good, he's no longer the shutdown corner he once was. People throw at him now, and get completions, albeit usually not big ones because he's still a phenomenal tackler with great instincts. In years past all but the best avoided him like the plague he was, and he got picks when they didn't; he frequently got picks even when they DID. Those days are gone.


Brooking and Koppen were never intended to be and aren't being paid like starters either; what's your point? Porter and Leonhard will be FAs this year because they only signed one year deals: That's the exact same situation we were in with Harris last year when I was terrified we wouldn't re-sign him; I think we can all agree it's a darned good thing we did. I have no problem with Adams, just the opposite; that's why I'd start him and Champ in tandem, put Harris opposite whichever of Porter/Carter can win that job, and put the loser at nickel/dime with Leonhard.

I didn't reference the money to criticize Adams or Leonhard, but Porter and Florence: We paid a fair amount of money for FOUR FA DBs, and one has spent most of the year on the bench while another was released before the regular season started. I prefer moving Champ to safety and starting Porter/Carter opposite Harris to filling our holes at FS and CB by spending millions on a bunch of FA DBs but only using half of them.

Ok they paid a fair what's your point? What those players are being paid not cap buster deals.

Perfer what you it isn't going happen. Btw where in the hell did you get the idea that Harris had one year deal? Elway didn't have go back negotiate a new deal before the start of the season. He's playing a small rookie contract. IIRC he signed through about 2013 or 2014. So if you were terrified about Harris re-signing you waisted your time. When has Harris played safety? He's been a gunner on special teams and nickle back before he became the starter. He hasn't played any safety at all as far as I know.

Dapper Dan
01-15-2013, 08:46 AM
I'm starting to buy into the idea as well. I like some of the CBs in the upcoming draft, opposed to the safeties available. I would feel alright with DraftedPlayer, Harris, Porter, Carter at CB and Champ, Moore, Q.Carter, Leonard at Safety. Champ is smart. He knows the job of the safety. He wouldn't get caught out of position like some of our youngsters.

UnderArmour
01-15-2013, 09:43 AM
I don't think it's quite time to move Champ to safety just yet. After watching Champ get burned during the playoffs, quarterbacks will hopefully be stupid enough to throw the ball his way for the first time since our last 13-3 season. He is still a shutdown corner and he bounced back after a terrible first half against Torey Smith. I would like to see Chris Harris play full time on the outside and transition Champ into more of a Charles Woodson type role though so he is in the position to make more plays.

TXBRONC
01-15-2013, 10:00 AM
I'm starting to buy into the idea as well. I like some of the CBs in the upcoming draft, opposed to the safeties available. I would feel alright with DraftedPlayer, Harris, Porter, Carter at CB and Champ, Moore, Q.Carter, Leonard at Safety. Champ is smart. He knows the job of the safety. He wouldn't get caught out of position like some of our youngsters.

How do you he knows the job of safety? He has never played a down of safety. He is smart and I have no doubts that he could do it but to say he knows the position is baseless.

CoachChaz
01-15-2013, 10:20 AM
I don't think it's quite time to move Champ to safety just yet. After watching Champ get burned during the playoffs, quarterbacks will hopefully be stupid enough to throw the ball his way for the first time since our last 13-3 season. He is still a shutdown corner and he bounced back after a terrible first half against Torey Smith. I would like to see Chris Harris play full time on the outside and transition Champ into more of a Charles Woodson type role though so he is in the position to make more plays.

I love Champ as much as anyone...but he is no longer a shut down corner. Not even close. He's in the same boat Charles Woodson is. He got to a point where he couldnt cover the faster younger receivers anymore and he made a successful move to safety. He'll still get plenty of coverage opportunities, but It will be TE's instead. After watching him this season, I'm just no longer confident in his ability to cover speed anymore.

Joel
01-15-2013, 10:29 AM
Ok they paid a fair what's your point? What those players are being paid not cap buster deals.
We paid Porter $4 million to spend most of this season on the bench, and Schefter reported when we signed Florence that it was for $4.5 million over 2 years plus $5.5 million in incentives. Not sure how much of the latters contracted money was guaranteed after we released him, but it's still more than we're paying the guy we signed to be our starting MLB.


Perfer what you it isn't going happen. Btw where in the hell did you get the idea that Harris had one year deal? Elway didn't have go back negotiate a new deal before the start of the season. He's playing a small rookie contract. IIRC he signed through about 2013 or 2014. So if you were terrified about Harris re-signing you waisted your time. When has Harris played safety? He's been a gunner on special teams and nickle back before he became the starter. He hasn't played any safety at all as far as I know.
I could've sworn I saw a lot of discussion about whether Harris would sign a new deal with us last offseason, and giving an undrafted rookie a one year deal would make sense, but I can't find any mention of it now, so I stand corrected. I DID find a lot of discussion about him being moved to safety in college and a Jeff Legwold mailbag question where he said NFL scouts considered Harris as a safety when declining to draft him, but I wouldn't move HIM anywhere.

GEM
01-15-2013, 10:30 AM
Champ had his chance at a ring and he got burned. Don't offer top dollar to a slowing superstar. Love Champ, but his best days are behind him while that Ravens WR was slapping him around all day. And btw...why in the flying **** didn't Del Rio change the CB's around since Champ was getting beat every ******* play? Put a younger, faster, more aggressive Chris Harris on the dude. If it hurts Champ's feelers, too ******* bad. We had a game to win.

zbeg
01-15-2013, 10:31 AM
Champ had one bad game after having his best season in three years, and is still a top 5 corner in the game. This is an overreaction to the highest degree.

CoachChaz
01-15-2013, 10:32 AM
Champ had his chance at a ring and he got burned. Don't offer top dollar to a slowing superstar. Love Champ, but his best days are behind him while that Ravens WR was slapping him around all day. And btw...why in the flying **** didn't Del Rio change the CB's around since Champ was getting beat every ******* play? Put a younger, faster, more aggressive Chris Harris on the dude. If it hurts Champ's feelers, too ******* bad. We had a game to win.

It appeared Del Rio gave Champ some safety help. Not that it worked out very well

TXBRONC
01-15-2013, 10:32 AM
I love Champ as much as anyone...but he is no longer a shut down corner. Not even close. He's in the same boat Charles Woodson is. He got to a point where he couldnt cover the faster younger receivers anymore and he made a successful move to safety. He'll still get plenty of coverage opportunities, but It will be TE's instead. After watching him this season, I'm just no longer confident in his ability to cover speed anymore.

Maybe so but up until last Saturday he hadn't been torched all season.

GEM
01-15-2013, 10:32 AM
I think Champ would make a wonderful safety. But why? He is still the best CB
in football. Seriously, he literally shut down most of the WRs who are going to
the Pro Bowl, and he surrendered exactly zero TDs.

I'm all for re-signing Champ, but as a cornerback . . .

-----

Also keep in mind....not many coordinators had the kahunas to throw on Champ. Baltimore just had the kahunas to do so and it paid dividends. You don't think that will continue next season now that it's been exposed?

CoachChaz
01-15-2013, 10:42 AM
Maybe so but up until last Saturday he hadn't been torched all season.

I'm not saying he cant still play CB. He definitely can. But if his move to safety improves our secondary overall...then I think now is the time to consider it.

Dapper Dan
01-15-2013, 10:42 AM
How do you he knows the job of safety? He has never played a down of safety. He is smart and I have no doubts that he could do it but to say he knows the position is baseless.

Do you think a man that's studied the playbook this many years, doesn't know the job of his fellow defensive backs? If he doesn't know the job of safety, then we shouldn't move him ever. No reason to make him learn something that he doesn't know how to do.

When you're the leader of a team, the leader of a defense, and more specifically the leader of your position group, you know the job. CBs and Safeties work together. If Champ has played CB for this long and doesn't know the job of a safety, then I will be surprised. Maybe he's just oblivious. In that case, you're right, it's a baseless assumption to think a 14 year professional cornerback would know the job of a safety.

CoachChaz
01-15-2013, 10:47 AM
Do you think a man that's studied the playbook this many years, doesn't know the job of his fellow defensive backs? If he doesn't know the job of safety, then we shouldn't move him ever. No reason to make him learn something that he doesn't know how to do.

When you're the leader of a team, the leader of a defense, and more specifically the leader of your position group, you know the job. CBs and Safeties work together. If Champ has played CB for this long and doesn't know the job of a safety, then I will be surprised. Maybe he's just oblivious. In that case, you're right, it's a baseless assumption to think a 14 year professional cornerback would know the job of a safety.

All anyone has to do is look at history and how many corners have successfully made the move. Hell...even CB's coming out of college make the transition immediately. Seattle had a QB make the change

zbeg
01-15-2013, 10:47 AM
Also keep in mind....not many coordinators had the kahunas to throw on Champ. Baltimore just had the kahunas to do so and it paid dividends. You don't think that will continue next season now that it's been exposed?

I don't think so. If Champ was giving up position consistently, other teams would have seen it on tape and at least taken shots there. The reason why teams didn't throw much at Champ this year is because the receiver was covered most of the time, so they had to look elsewhere.

Champ had a bad game in what was probably a bad matchup, but it doesn't take away the fact that he still has elite cover skills and was one of the best corners in the league all season. If they're going to challenge Champ for the sake of challenging Champ just because they saw Torrey Smith have a big game, I don't think that goes well for the other team.

GEM
01-15-2013, 10:54 AM
I don't think so. If Champ was giving up position consistently, other teams would have seen it on tape and at least taken shots there. The reason why teams didn't throw much at Champ this year is because the receiver was covered most of the time, so they had to look elsewhere.

Champ had a bad game in what was probably a bad matchup, but it doesn't take away the fact that he still has elite cover skills and was one of the best corners in the league all season. If they're going to challenge Champ for the sake of challenging Champ just because they saw Torrey Smith have a big game, I don't think that goes well for the other team.


Hope you're right as I love Champ, but I don't want to hang on to the point it is a liability on the field.

jhildebrand
01-15-2013, 11:33 AM
Champ was in position on the 2nd throw. The bottom line is the other guys get paid too. They made a play.

The reality is the greatest CB the game has ever known can only cover so long. With ZERO pass rush, it only makes coverage harder. That should be known from the Shanahan days. Yet Fox and Del Rio for some reason chose not to blitz or the blitz wasn't getting there. The same pass rush that had 50+ sacks throughout the regular season didn't show up on Saturday. This team should learn a lot from this loss-namely we need another piece or two on the D line and then LB or S (not necessarily Rahim) but S help nonetheless.

Slammer
01-15-2013, 09:37 PM
Many forum members are too gutless to say it is time for Champ to move on. Hey he had a great career. But a contender team needs the fastest and best and Champ is no longer that. Give him a job as a defensive coach. What you don't want to see is a guy like him go to arena football to still try and live out his dreams.

I vote adios Champ.

zbeg
01-15-2013, 09:48 PM
Many forum members are too gutless to say it is time for Champ to move on. Hey he had a great career. But a contender team needs the fastest and best and Champ is no longer that. Give him a job as a defensive coach. What you don't want to see is a guy like him go to arena football to still try and live out his dreams.

I vote adios Champ.

A contender team needs the fastest and the best, and Champ is no longer that. He's only, like, fourth best, which is basically like playing arena football.

MOtorboat
01-15-2013, 09:49 PM
A contender team needs the fastest and the best, and Champ is no longer that. He's only, like, fourth best, which is basically like playing arena football.

This post is awesome.

Broncos Mtnman
01-15-2013, 09:49 PM
I think it's time for the Broncos to move him to safety or let him go.

Poet
01-15-2013, 09:57 PM
So he can't cover elite speed guys, get rid of him!

Because covering guys like Anquan Boldin, Brandon Marshall, Fitzgerald and other big time WR's who don't run off-the-chart 40's is worthless.

UnderArmour
01-15-2013, 10:03 PM
I think it's time for the Broncos to move him to safety or let him go.

Because of 2 plays in the first half? Champ gave up a 59 yarder, a 32 yarder, and a 7 yarder(Smith's only 2nd half catch).

I gotta say, I thought this is a fan base that prided itself on actually watching the games and coming to their own conclusions rather than listening to the crap the media feeds them. Champ had 2 bad plays and he needed either safety help over the top or to play more off the line (both were done frequently in the second half). He was caught peeking in the backfield just doing his thing trying to contribute in the run game as well and it backfired on him. The second ball he was in a position to defend and just came up a little short. Given his Hall of Fame credentials... I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt when it comes to those two plays. It's not like Torey Smith is a bad receiver either.

The only reason the idea to move Champ to safety comes up more and more is because of the increased importance of the position. Safeties have more opportunities to make plays from creative scheming while cornerbacks are on an island and QBs can just throw away from them.

dogfish
01-16-2013, 06:43 AM
Many forum members are too gutless to say it is time for Champ to move on. Hey he had a great career. But a contender team needs the fastest and best and Champ is no longer that. Give him a job as a defensive coach. What you don't want to see is a guy like him go to arena football to still try and live out his dreams.

I vote adios Champ.

obvious troll is obvious. . . i vote adios to you, sucka!


:wave:

TXBRONC
01-16-2013, 06:50 AM
Do you think a man that's studied the playbook this many years, doesn't know the job of his fellow defensive backs? If he doesn't know the job of safety, then we shouldn't move him ever. No reason to make him learn something that he doesn't know how to do.

When you're the leader of a team, the leader of a defense, and more specifically the leader of your position group, you know the job. CBs and Safeties work together. If Champ has played CB for this long and doesn't know the job of a safety, then I will be surprised. Maybe he's just oblivious. In that case, you're right, it's a baseless assumption to think a 14 year professional cornerback would know the job of a safety.

I've mentioned it before, Rod Woodson said it's not the easy move that you think it is. Apparently you don't understand doesn't mean that you just play a different postion with no problem that's naive. It's a knee-jerk reaction to assume that Bailey is done as corner because of two bad plays.

Legwold makes some very points in this article:

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_22386020/after-playoff-loss-some-ask-if-champ-bailey

Timmy!
01-16-2013, 07:05 AM
:lol: this cracks me up. Yay, lets make champ retire, he obviously sucks. He had a shitty game (half).....not like the guy shut downxpretty much all wrs all season or anything. Maybe, just maybe, we should realize that against elite speed guys (smith, green) champ cant go 1 on 1 anymore with 0 safety help, but against the other 85% of wrs he is still money on an island. The guy is still a top 10 corner.but is aging. this isnt thatfriggin hard to adjust scheme wise. It was insanely cold and our old corner couldnt run with a burner....shocking! Fire his ass!!! :dumbasses:

Dapper Dan
01-16-2013, 07:19 AM
:lol: this cracks me up. Yay, lets make champ retire, he obviously sucks. He had a shitty game (half).....not like the guy shut downxpretty much all wrs all season or anything. Maybe, just maybe, we should realize that against elite speed guys (smith, green) champ cant go 1 on 1 anymore with 0 safety help, but against the other 85% of wrs he is still money on an island. The guy is still a top 10 corner.but is aging. this isnt thatfriggin hard to adjust scheme wise. It was insanely cold and our old corner couldnt run with a burner....shocking! Fire his ass!!! :dumbasses:

The general consensus of this thread has nothing to do with firing him.

Timmy!
01-16-2013, 07:23 AM
The general consensus of this thread has nothing to do with firing him.

Ok, or moving him to safety. :zambini:

Dapper Dan
01-16-2013, 07:28 AM
Ok, or moving him to safety. :zambini:

Your wild rant said nothing about that. So now, why wouldn't you move him?

Joel
01-16-2013, 02:25 PM
Yeah, Champ's not done; he's just not a shutdown corner anymore.

I see Woodsons point about the positions not being interchangeable, but we're not talking about moving him to guard. Top CBs almost always play one-on-one, usually outside; safeties more often than not play a centerfield zone, when they aren't coming up to blitz or runstop. As long as starting CBs shut down whoever they were assigned to each down, they had a banner day—even if the REST of the secondary is torched for half a dozen TDs. Case in point: Chris Harris played a great game Saturday, as usual, but it didn't matter because Flacco just threw bomb after bomb to all the wide open guys he wasn't covering (like opponents USED to do to Champ.) When that happens to a safetys team he's automatically at fault; being away from the play isn't an excuse, but an indictment, because being in the middle of every play is his JOB.

Here's the thing though: Champ has been infamous for most of his career for playing something closely akin to an outside corner zone. A lot of guys do it, but he has been arguably the best throughout his career at giving his man some separation to entice a throw just so he can close the gap and pick off the pass. A few years ago observers, teammates and competitors openly marveled at Champs habit of dropping his man as soon as the ball was released and racing over to pick off a pass fired at a completely different part of the field. In many ways, Champ has always played CB like FS anyway: He reads and reacts to the pass whether or not it's intended for his assigned man. And, once again, he's maybe the best EVER at it; he can handle FS as well as the many Pro Bowl CBs before him who made the transition in the last years of their career.

The only other primary safety duty CBs lack is tackling on blitzes and runs, but Champ has also always been notorious for coming off his receiver to make GREAT open field tackles on runners near the line.

Broncos Mtnman
01-16-2013, 04:22 PM
Because of 2 plays in the first half? Champ gave up a 59 yarder, a 32 yarder, and a 7 yarder(Smith's only 2nd half catch).

Not because of those plays. However, those plays did indicate that Champ has lost a step. I want him moved before it's too late. Wait until he can't cover any longer, and it's not likely that he stays with the team in any capacity.


I gotta say, I thought this is a fan base that prided itself on actually watching the games and coming to their own conclusions rather than listening to the crap the media feeds them. Champ had 2 bad plays and he needed either safety help over the top or to play more off the line (both were done frequently in the second half). He was caught peeking in the backfield just doing his thing trying to contribute in the run game as well and it backfired on him. The second ball he was in a position to defend and just came up a little short. Given his Hall of Fame credentials... I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt when it comes to those two plays. It's not like Torey Smith is a bad receiver either.

As someone who used to write for this forum, I can assure you that I watch every game. You mention the support he got in the second half. That's exactly the proof you need to know that he was not up to man-on-man coverage in this game. I know how he tries to cover both the run and the pass, but earlier in his career, he had the speed to make up for making the wrong choice. He simply doesn't have that speed any longer.


The only reason the idea to move Champ to safety comes up more and more is because of the increased importance of the position. Safeties have more opportunities to make plays from creative scheming while cornerbacks are on an island and QBs can just throw away from them.

No, the reason it comes up more and more---at least as far as I'm concerned---is that he is someone I want to see succeed, and someone I want to see finish his career in Denver. And in a way, you prove the point with your statement about how safeties have more opportunities to make plays. With the great career Champ has had as a CB, imagine the impact he could have in a position where he take advantage of more opportunities.

TXBRONC
01-17-2013, 09:29 AM
Not because of those plays. However, those plays did indicate that Champ has lost a step. I want him moved before it's too late. Wait until he can't cover any longer, and it's not likely that he stays with the team in any capacity.



As someone who used to write for this forum, I can assure you that I watch every game. You mention the support he got in the second half. That's exactly the proof you need to know that he was not up to man-on-man coverage in this game. I know how he tries to cover both the run and the pass, but earlier in his career, he had the speed to make up for making the wrong choice. He simply doesn't have that speed any longer.



No, the reason it comes up more and more---at least as far as I'm concerned---is that he is someone I want to see succeed, and someone I want to see finish his career in Denver. And in a way, you prove the point with your statement about how safeties have more opportunities to make plays. With the great career Champ has had as a CB, imagine the impact he could have in a position where he take advantage of more opportunities.

Legwold was asked this question he pointed out just a month Bailey locked Smith down. He also point the either or Moore might be responsible blew the coverage but it's hard to say. According what Legwold said Bailey outside and might have been expecting help to inside. As it was said in the article it could simply be our best corner having his worst day.

You could be right and Bailey and the coaching staff shouldn't carefully evaluate where he is at. That was also pointed out in the article.

Btw it's good to see you so to speak. :cheers:

chaoticmayhem
01-17-2013, 02:41 PM
I think Champ still believes he can make up ground when he gets beat. I don't see him having the closing speed he used to have. When he gets beat he stays beat nowadays. He still has top notch hips and balance but that matters less with the track stars playing WR. I think he needs to start getting safety help with certain receivers. I'm not ready to move him to safety just yet, though I believe he would be good at that position. The problem is the Broncos have no one to replace him as a DB and he's still top 10 in the league.

Chef Zambini
01-17-2013, 02:51 PM
Because of 2 plays in the first half? Champ gave up a 59 yarder, a 32 yarder, and a 7 yarder(Smith's only 2nd half catch).

I gotta say, I thought this is a fan base that prided itself on actually watching the games and coming to their own conclusions rather than listening to the crap the media feeds them. Champ had 2 bad plays and he needed either safety help over the top or to play more off the line (both were done frequently in the second half). He was caught peeking in the backfield just doing his thing trying to contribute in the run game as well and it backfired on him. The second ball he was in a position to defend and just came up a little short. Given his Hall of Fame credentials... I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt when it comes to those two plays. It's not like Torey Smith is a bad receiver either.

The only reason the idea to move Champ to safety comes up more and more is because of the increased importance of the position. Safeties have more opportunities to make plays from creative scheming while cornerbacks are on an island and QBs can just throw away from them.BINGO ! to get the most out of champs skill set, we should move him to safety. but this must be champs decision, somethingh i think his ego will veto .

Chef Zambini
01-17-2013, 02:57 PM
i f champ neeeds safety help as some of you are now, finally willing to admit, then he is no longer the 1 on 1 take away the opponents best receiver corner.
Those days are gone.
so now you have to ask yourself, is champ more valuable as a corner who NEEDS safety help or would he be more valuable as that safety, roaming the baqcfield and using all his skills, savvy, and experience to disrupt an offense?

Lancane
01-18-2013, 06:44 PM
It's apparent that Bailey has lost a step or two, but he's still an outstanding leader, solid tackler and pretty damn good all around defensive back. If you look at Rahim Moore's numbers, they're not too shabby, nor are Mike Adams'. Denver will probably go forward with those two as next year's starters, so I don't see Champ being moved to safety...not to mention that this unit was part of one of the league's best pass defenses this season. More or less Del Rio and Undlin should consider using Bailey as a safety option on passing downs only and at corner on all others.

Joel
01-18-2013, 07:11 PM
I think Champ still believes he can make up ground when he gets beat. I don't see him having the closing speed he used to have. When he gets beat he stays beat nowadays. He still has top notch hips and balance but that matters less with the track stars playing WR. I think he needs to start getting safety help with certain receivers. I'm not ready to move him to safety just yet, though I believe he would be good at that position. The problem is the Broncos have no one to replace him as a DB and he's still top 10 in the league.
We have Harris (who looks like he might be Champ 2.0,) Carter and Porter at CORNERBACK; our DB problem is a lack of good SAFETIES. That's why moving Champ while he's still got the instincts and experience to anticipate passes and make great tackles kills two birds with one stone: Instead of looking for a CB to replace Champ AND a second decent starting safety, we just plug in another of the good CBs we have waiting for a chance to play opposite the #1 (i.e. Harris.)

Cugel
01-18-2013, 07:57 PM
Since I started this thread I should probably mention that what I was thinking in January 2011 is NO LONGER REMOTELY RELEVANT TODAY!

So, I don't hold the same opinion.

My point then was:

1. The Broncos were HORRIBLE on defense at the time. This was before the combine so nobody knew who would be the top draft picks. As it turned out, I was right that they could draft "an OLB, a DT an OT" etc. They did draft Von Miller, Rahim Moore, Orlando Franklin, Quinton Carter and they signed FAs Chris Harris and Tony Carter.

2. Next year remember they get Quinton Carter back at S, and Derek Wolfe will be entering his 2nd season and hopefully will move inside to DT. If not then they still need a pass-rushing DT.

I did NOT predict that they would draft Von Miller or that he would become a perennial All-Pro and elite pass-rusher. He's the next Derek Thomas.

3. So, overall the defense is a lot better than the horrible pass-defense I was looking at in January 2011. And they did NOT draft Patrick Peterson (thank God!) who is a lot better KR than CB quite frankly.

4. The problem with moving Champ Bailey to S right now is that they would have a log-jam at S, with Adams, Moore, Quinton Carter and Bailey, but only 2 decent CBs.

They would need to go out in FA and acquire at least a #2 CB like they did last year (assuming they think Chris Harris can be their #1 CB which is uncertain).

But, after totally BLOWING $6 million on Drayton Florence and Tracy Porter and not even using either one this season (Porter played badly for a while, lost his job and is now going to leave as a FA), I doubt they are eager to pay another $6 million to bring in someone to compete with Tony Carter. And Who would be the nickel back?

Porter tweeted "it's finally over" after the last game. He can't wait to get out of Denver. He's probably already left town and cleared out his locker and taken his name plate. Good riddance.

But, it does leave them short at CB if they were to move Bailey this off-season. I think we'll know more when we see if they add any CBs in FA. I doubt it, but they could.

My guess is that they will NOT be very active in FA and will basically try and go into next season with the defense they had in 2012, plus the draft.

When you go 13-3 you don't have that many roster spots available.

They could use some help at MLB since Nate Irving is a bust, and Keith Brooking isn't getting any younger, but they get their starting MLB Joe Mays back.

Remember that they signed Mays to a $4.5 million guaranteed contract for the next 3 years, so he's probably back at MLB next year (sigh).

In addition, Ty Warren is going to have to retire, while they Jeremy Beal back at LDE. Jason Hunter is a FA, but after being injured they could probably re-sign him for a reasonable amount.

Cugel
01-18-2013, 08:06 PM
i f champ neeeds safety help as some of you are now, finally willing to admit, then he is no longer the 1 on 1 take away the opponents best receiver corner.
Those days are gone.
so now you have to ask yourself, is champ more valuable as a corner who NEEDS safety help or would he be more valuable as that safety, roaming the baqcfield and using all his skills, savvy, and experience to disrupt an offense?

Well, that depends on who they would have to play the #1 CB spot!

Is Chris Harris a true #1 CB? He's only ever been a #2 and has never had the toughest matchups. Certainly you wouldn't like to see him one on one on the opponent's best WR like Champ was all season. You would have to give him some help.

Meanwhile that moves Tony Carter up to #2, and who is now going to be the nickel back? Omar Bolden? Not feeling the love there. :coffee:

Unless the Broncos try and find at least a #2 CB via FA Champ will start next season.

Simple Jaded
01-19-2013, 12:27 PM
A) Chris Harris isn't even v2.0 of today's Champ Bailey.

B) Moving Bailey would make him a $9 million dollar S, the franchise tag is $6. Making him one of the highest paid players at a position that we don't even know he can play is not the kind of move you can expect to pay off.......

Chef Zambini
01-19-2013, 01:09 PM
Well, that depends on who they would have to play the #1 CB spot!

Is Chris Harris a true #1 CB? He's only ever been a #2 and has never had the toughest matchups. Certainly you wouldn't like to see him one on one on the opponent's best WR like Champ was all season. You would have to give him some help.

Meanwhile that moves Tony Carter up to #2, and who is now going to be the nickel back? Omar Bolden? Not feeling the love there. :coffee:

Unless the Broncos try and find at least a #2 CB via FA Champ will start next season.
if champ was a SAFETY, NONO of our corners would be ALONE.

Poet
01-19-2013, 02:13 PM
if champ was a SAFETY, NONO of our corners would be ALONE.

He's going to give double coverage to every Denver CB that's in coverage?

MOtorboat
01-19-2013, 04:57 PM
He's going to give double coverage to every Denver CB that's in coverage?

He comes at you like a spider monkey.

Joel
01-19-2013, 06:15 PM
A) Chris Harris isn't even v2.0 of today's Champ Bailey.
Too soon to tell, but he's progressing nicely, and the similarities are marked. He's very good in coverage, has good instincts/anticipation and is a great wrap up tackler who never misses, sometimes even coming up to make plays against the run. All classic Champ Bailey habits, and he's in, what, his second year? Everyone keeps talking about how "improved" Rahim Moore is in his second year (though not so much after last week,) but if he'd improved half as much as Harris we'd be suiting up to host the AFCCG tomorrow.


B) Moving Bailey would make him a $9 million dollar S, the franchise tag is $6. Making him one of the highest paid players at a position that we don't even know he can play is not the kind of move you can expect to pay off.......
I love how the argument against Champ moving to safety boils down to "Champ can effortlessly do everything forever and we don't know if he'd be even be decent at safety." He'd play a lot more deep zones instead of one-on-one coverage against primary receivers; I'm pretty sure he's competent for that, particularly since it prioritizes all of what have always been his best skills and minimizes his flagging speed.

I felt far more comfortable about our CB rotation than our safety rotation even before last week but, refs aside, every Ravens TD I can think of was due to Champ blowing one-on-one coverage or a safety blowing a deep zone. As I've been saying since this time last year, the first problem is the solution to the second; worst case scenario we'd just need to find a good #2 CB or nickelback rather than trying to find a good #1 CB AND starting FS while Harris was wasted on #2 WRs.

Poet
01-19-2013, 06:27 PM
Joel, you are refusing to admit that no one is saying he's a number one on every down or against every player. Look at what the Jets do with Revis. He is a guy who can do one-on-one with anyone and even they move him around the field depending on plays and personnel groupings. Champ can't cover speed or acceleration freaks anymore. By that I mean guys who are freaks in comparison to other NFL players, not just in general.

Leaving him on Smith was a stupid move. If they wanted to test Smith with him I can understand it. However, after Smith showed that he was going to abuse Bailey it was ignorant to leave Champ in the same position.

Bailey could have crushed Boldin or even Pitta or anyone else on the Ravens. But what you're proposing is "He can cover almost any WR in the game. The only guys he can't cover one-on-one are top tier speed guys and that means he needs to be a safety."

That proposal is not very good. Even if you go about the progression of downgrading Champ's role, you typically go from starting corner/number one guy to starting-corner/number one guy in certain situations, number two corner, nickel and THEN safety.

That's what they did with Charles Woodson and I believe they did it with Rod Woodson as well.

The Champ to safety fixation has been brewed and pressed by a lot of people. On this message board it seems like there are a few posters who think it's a good idea. There are also some people posting who are using it as a way to irritate and 'troll' the message board.

MOtorboat
01-19-2013, 06:32 PM
Bailey at one cornerback makes Harris better on the other side. Bailey at safety, with Moore riding the bench doesn't make Harris better.

And it doesn't make Bailey better, it just makes him move positions. It solves nothing. You're still looking for someone who can shut down wide receivers on one side.

Instead of this asinine idea of making Bailey a safety for the sake of making Bailey a safety, how about Denver just goes and gets a SAFETY? Novel idea, huh?

Joel has an obsession with taking the best players and moving them to different positions. It makes very little sense. And safety still isn't more important than cornerback because two other teams have good safeties.

DenBronx
01-19-2013, 06:38 PM
We really could have used Dawkins one more damn year.

MOtorboat
01-19-2013, 06:52 PM
We really could have used Dawkins one more damn year.

Moore played fairly well all season until that play...sadly he may not be able to play in Denver again.

DenBronx
01-19-2013, 06:57 PM
Moore played fairly well all season until that play...sadly he may not be able to play in Denver again.

Why? Do you think the Broncos will cut him? I know it was a terrible play by Moore, it actually ended our season....was a worse play than the Manning INT even.

Depends on how the offseason and draft goes I guess. Is it April yet???

I think Moore was 3rd in total tackles this year for the team, Woody led in tackles. I don't know man, these guys are all still young and I would hate for us to give up on him.

Jsteve01
01-19-2013, 08:04 PM
Moore played fairly well all season until that play...sadly he may not be able to play in Denver again.

Why? Do you think the Broncos will cut him? I know it was a terrible play by Moore, it actually ended our season....was a worse play than the Manning INT even.

Depends on how the offseason and draft goes I guess. Is it April yet???

I think Moore was 3rd in total tackles this year for the team, Woody led in tackles. I don't know man, these guys are all still young and I would hate for us to give up on him.i totally agree. It wasnt an effort play. He misjudged the ball after playing pretty well thos year. No way i move him because a couple dipshit fans pin the while game on one play.

Joel
01-19-2013, 09:13 PM
King: I've been arguing for Champ to go to safety since before he got there a beat too late to pick off Rapistburger in last years playoff game, only to see the Steelers score a TD on the very next play. Even before that I've been expecting it for at least a year or two longer.

Champ Bailey turns 35 next June, folks; it's time he and we accepted that, but it's my impression we're the ones who have the most difficulty grasping it.

Mo: Since we lost Wilson nearly a decade ago we've needed a MLB like nobodys business. If we find someone off the roster to adequately play that vital versatile role, I'll welcome him with open arms, but until/unless that happens I have to look to the players we've got. An every down defensive captain is FAR more valuable to me than a part time pass rusher. Not that this thread has much to do with that debate. ;)

Poet
01-20-2013, 12:01 AM
I know your stance and you're not a one of the 'bad ones'. I'm just saying that a ton of 25 year old CB who are starting couldn't make that play either.

He's not a game changer anymore. He's just a top ten corner who can't cover some guys one-on-one. He got beat up this year by A.J. Green. Green has killed every team who put him in single coverage this year, sans the first game in Pittsburgh. Even then he scored an impressive touchdown. In that game Green still had double coverage in some situations. After that game I heard a ton of "omfg Champ can't do it," like A.J. Green is some void of talent scrub.

If JDR called the game as he should have done, this conversation wouldn't be happening.

Joel
01-20-2013, 12:26 AM
I know your stance and you're not a one of the 'bad ones'. I'm just saying that a ton of 25 year old CB who are starting couldn't make that play either.

He's not a game changer anymore. He's just a top ten corner who can't cover some guys one-on-one. He got beat up this year by A.J. Green. Green has killed every team who put him in single coverage this year, sans the first game in Pittsburgh. Even then he scored an impressive touchdown. In that game Green still had double coverage in some situations. After that game I heard a ton of "omfg Champ can't do it," like A.J. Green is some void of talent scrub.

If JDR called the game as he should have done, this conversation wouldn't be happening.
I can't dispute the last. It should be obvious that if a QB who can't throw anything but rainbows and a receiver who can't run anything but go routes have destroyed your secondary all day you should bump at the line like crazy and have your safeties deeper than deep when the opponent's down by a TD on their own 30 with 30 seconds to play. I haven't seen coaching that bad since Dallas took a 14-3 lead into the 2:00 warning and let Santana Moss get deep not once but TWICE to win the game. The first time that happens I can chalk it up to a bad play or mistake, but a mistake becomes an error when one refuses to correct it.

The thing is though, you can't double cover everyone, and a guy who can't cover any opponents best receiver most of the time can't be a #1 CB. You might win regular season games like that, maybe even your division, but in the playoffs it'll get you shredded. And Champ's 34; he's never going to get any faster, just the opposite. He's got all the skills and experience to be an elite safety, but we're reaching a point where his fading speed is an increasing liability at safety. I think Harris is ready to be a #1, and Carter/Porter are good #2s, while our starting safeties are VERY questionable.

Simple Jaded
01-20-2013, 02:01 AM
Too soon to tell, but he's progressing nicely, and the similarities are marked. He's very good in coverage, has good instincts/anticipation and is a great wrap up tackler who never misses, sometimes even coming up to make plays against the run. All classic Champ Bailey habits, and he's in, what, his second year? Everyone keeps talking about how "improved" Rahim Moore is in his second year (though not so much after last week,) but if he'd improved half as much as Harris we'd be suiting up to host the AFCCG tomorrow.


I love how the argument against Champ moving to safety boils down to "Champ can effortlessly do everything forever and we don't know if he'd be even be decent at safety." He'd play a lot more deep zones instead of one-on-one coverage against primary receivers; I'm pretty sure he's competent for that, particularly since it prioritizes all of what have always been his best skills and minimizes his flagging speed.

I felt far more comfortable about our CB rotation than our safety rotation even before last week but, refs aside, every Ravens TD I can think of was due to Champ blowing one-on-one coverage or a safety blowing a deep zone. As I've been saying since this time last year, the first problem is the solution to the second; worst case scenario we'd just need to find a good #2 CB or nickelback rather than trying to find a good #1 CB AND starting FS while Harris was wasted on #2 WRs.

I never said he can play CB forever, I said he can play CB now. Maybe they should wait til he can't to move him?.......

shank
01-20-2013, 02:04 AM
but we're reaching a point where his fading speed is an increasing liability at safety.

you can make 12 good points and then you say something like this and everything you wrote goes in my brains recycle bin.

Chef Zambini
01-20-2013, 02:20 AM
dumping rahi, moore would be assinine!

Joel
01-20-2013, 05:29 AM
I never said he can play CB forever, I said he can play CB now. Maybe they should wait til he can't to move him?.......
He's not Darrell Green; he was slower last year than the year before, and is even slower now. How fast will he be in 9 months, or a year? Last season he was a beat too slow to pick Rapistburger and prevent a playoff game going to OT; this year he was too slow to prevent TWO TDs that forced OT in a playoff game. Should we wait fo the hat trick?


you can make 12 good points and then you say something like this and everything you wrote goes in my brains recycle bin.
Well, but we are reaching that point; he's clearly slower, will only continue slowing and that will sooner or later make him an ever greater liability. The only question is when, not if.

Poet
01-20-2013, 05:41 AM
Joel you're attributing so much on Champ for the failure. In that same game he consistently beat the piss out of Wallace with zero safety help. On that same play he had safety help and the safety play was awful. Again, he's a cornerback, most corners, even number one corners get safety help on the big time speed guys. You're holding him to this standard that he's only good if he plays man to man on EVERY snap. There are about three other corners held to that standard.

Revis.
Jonathan Joseph (more scheme than anything, although he's a big time corner. I do have bias towards him).
Carr

Even Cromartie, who everyone fell in love with again, gets safety help. You keep putting up these scenarios like "he's not as good as he once was," and "he doesn't have the elite speed to make these jaw-dropping plays like he used to." You can't use his past success to say that he's not a great corner when he still is. You're comparing Champ Bailey in his mid twenties, a first ballot HoF corner whose name belongs next to Deion Sanders and Rod Woodson, to an aging Bailey.

You don't have a real number one corner other than him. Also, assume that we follow your guidelines for one moment. You draft a corner and make him a safety. Your new number one corner gets raped over the course of the season because being a rookie cornerback sucks. You then get pissy. You put Harris on the big time WR's and get pissed when you realize that his production was helped by being next to CHAMP BAILEY.

I rarely say this, but I can fix this problem right now! Don't put Champ Bailey on elite speed WR's. Use double coverage on them like everyone else. Or put Bailey on their next target who is known for getting third down catches. That coupled with your pass rush should eliminate most of the problems.

TXBRONC
01-20-2013, 07:04 AM
Bailey at one cornerback makes Harris better on the other side. Bailey at safety, with Moore riding the bench doesn't make Harris better.

And it doesn't make Bailey better, it just makes him move positions. It solves nothing. You're still looking for someone who can shut down wide receivers on one side.

Instead of this asinine idea of making Bailey a safety for the sake of making Bailey a safety, how about Denver just goes and gets a SAFETY? Novel idea, huh?

Joel has an obsession with taking the best players and moving them to different positions. It makes very little sense. And safety still isn't more important than cornerback because two other teams have good safeties.

Depleteing one position and at the same time creating a glut at another seems like bad idea to me.

TXBRONC
01-20-2013, 07:16 AM
He's not Darrell Green; he was slower last year than the year before, and is even slower now. How fast will he be in 9 months, or a year? Last season he was a beat too slow to pick Rapistburger and prevent a playoff game going to OT; this year he was too slow to prevent TWO TDs that forced OT in a playoff game. Should we wait fo the hat trick?


Well, but we are reaching that point; he's clearly slower, will only continue slowing and that will sooner or later make him an ever greater liability. The only question is when, not if.

Talk about revisionist history. Last year against Steelers he covered Mike Wallace for most of the game. Wallace ended the day with three catches for twenty-six yard. Wallace had a touchdown in that game rushing the ball. Btw only one touchdown pass was given up in that to Cotchery. Cotchery wasn't his responisbility.

MOtorboat
01-20-2013, 10:57 AM
Talk about revisionist history. Last year against Steelers he covered Mike Wallace for most of the game. Wallace ended the day with three catches for twenty-six yard. Wallace had a touchdown in that game rushing the ball. Btw only one touchdown pass was given up in that to Cotchery. Cotchery wasn't his responisbility.

He gave up three big plays all season, unfortunately two were in a playoff loss, so it's going to be magnified all offseason to annoying proportions.

MOtorboat
01-20-2013, 10:58 AM
And Joel, you don't move a devastating edge rusher to middle linebacker. That is dumb. Period.

Chef Zambini
01-20-2013, 11:42 AM
And Joel, you don't move a devastating edge rusher to middle linebacker. That is dumb. Period.tell it to DJ williams.

MOtorboat
01-20-2013, 11:44 AM
tell it to DJ williams.

He isn't/wasn't a devastating edge rusher. He is/was a traditional read and react linebacker. It's not comparable.

Joel
01-20-2013, 01:13 PM
Joel you're attributing so much on Champ for the failure. In that same game he consistently beat the piss out of Wallace with zero safety help. On that same play he had safety help and the safety play was awful. Again, he's a cornerback, most corners, even number one corners get safety help on the big time speed guys. You're holding him to this standard that he's only good if he plays man to man on EVERY snap. There are about three other corners held to that standard.

Revis.
Jonathan Joseph (more scheme than anything, although he's a big time corner. I do have bias towards him).
Carr

Even Cromartie, who everyone fell in love with again, gets safety help. You keep putting up these scenarios like "he's not as good as he once was," and "he doesn't have the elite speed to make these jaw-dropping plays like he used to." You can't use his past success to say that he's not a great corner when he still is. You're comparing Champ Bailey in his mid twenties, a first ballot HoF corner whose name belongs next to Deion Sanders and Rod Woodson, to an aging Bailey.
That is part of the issue though: I'm not (at all) saying, "Champ's an awful CB," but "our safety's are awful and Champ's not as invincible at CB as he once was." Moving him wouldn't just make room for Harris and Carter/Porter as our starting CBs, but fill a position of need at safety with a player uniquely suited to it. It's two birds with one stone, because I have far more faith in our CB depth than our safety depth.


You don't have a real number one corner other than him. Also, assume that we follow your guidelines for one moment. You draft a corner and make him a safety. Your new number one corner gets raped over the course of the season because being a rookie cornerback sucks. You then get pissy. You put Harris on the big time WR's and get pissed when you realize that his production was helped by being next to CHAMP BAILEY.
I disagree that we don't have another #1 CB; I think Harris qualifies, and that makes a big difference, too. With him fulfilling those duties I believe taking the best of Carter/Porter as our #2, putting the other at nickel, Leonhard at dime and starting Champ and Adams at safety would give us the most fearsome secondary in the league.


I rarely say this, but I can fix this problem right now! Don't put Champ Bailey on elite speed WR's. Use double coverage on them like everyone else. Or put Bailey on their next target who is known for getting third down catches. That coupled with your pass rush should eliminate most of the problems.
In other words, give Champ double coverage against #1 WRs, or just don't put him on them AT ALL. Sorry, that's doesn't sound like a #1 CB to me. I really don't expect our pass rush to solve any problems there either until/unless we have a huge overpowering NT who collapses pockets so QBs can't just step up to avoid Miller and Doom. I'd love to see one, but the Broncos faithful have been waiting for him nearly a decade to no avail. I still believe passes are stopped by good coverage anyway, especially in the era of quick short passes, hot reads and checkdowns to multiple receivers. That makes ANY weak link in the secondary a liability, and moving Champ to safety is as much about shoring up one weakness as eliminating another.


Talk about revisionist history. Last year against Steelers he covered Mike Wallace for most of the game. Wallace ended the day with three catches for twenty-six yard. Wallace had a touchdown in that game rushing the ball. Btw only one touchdown pass was given up in that to Cotchery. Cotchery wasn't his responisbility.
I'm not saying Champ blew any coverages, I'm saying he was at the back of the endzone just a hair after the ball, narrowly missing a game-ending pick, and that even three years ago Champ makes that play every time. He's slower now than then, and will be slower still next year. He's been visibly slowing for a while and will only continue: How slow must he become to make a move to safety not only wise, but vital?

Joel
01-20-2013, 01:24 PM
And Joel, you don't move a devastating edge rusher to middle linebacker. That is dumb. Period.
Separate debate, and not one where either of our minds will change soon. I value a great defensive QB more than a single sack in 2/3 games, just as I value a great offensive QB above a back who runs for a dozen TDs/year. Sacks have long been overrated; they put the offense in an obvious passing situation (which they frequently are on 2nd/3rd down anyway,) but they don't end drives unless it's 3rd down (when anything short of a conversion is just as good.) I'm sure Zam knows who I'm paraphrasing here: A sack's a nice play, no doubt, but usually just means the D must line up and do it's job again, which too many of them forget.

Simple Jaded
01-20-2013, 04:05 PM
He's not Darrell Green; he was slower last year than the year before, and is even slower now. How fast will he be in 9 months, or a year? Last season he was a beat too slow to pick Rapistburger and prevent a playoff game going to OT; this year he was too slow to prevent TWO TDs that forced OT in a playoff game. Should we wait fo the hat trick?


Well, but we are reaching that point; he's clearly slower, will only continue slowing and that will sooner or later make him an ever greater liability. The only question is when, not if.

Wow, a step too late on three ******* plays. Rock solid argument.

Btw, on one of those TD's he was "too slow to prevent" this year he was actually in picture perfect position. But why let facts get in the way of a perfectly good pity party?.......

MOtorboat
01-20-2013, 04:12 PM
So let's recap.

According to Joel, the best two players on Denver's defense are a part-time pass rusher and a liability.

Poet
01-20-2013, 04:43 PM
He comes at you like a spider monkey.

Hopped up on Mountain Dew.

Timmy!
01-20-2013, 07:41 PM
Morabar is blind.

Simple Jaded
01-20-2013, 07:43 PM
So let's recap.

According to Joel, the best two players on Denver's defense are a part-time pass rusher and a liability.

Yes, which is why they shoulda never signed Peyton Manning.......

Timmy!
01-20-2013, 07:47 PM
Yes, which is why they shoulda never signed Peyton Manning.......

Just think about how we would have gone with a 3rd string qb/punt protector throwing the ball and a little more depth.

Simple Jaded
01-20-2013, 07:49 PM
Just think about how we would have gone with a 3rd string qb/punt protector throwing the ball and a little more depth.

Not to mention all that cap space.......

TXBRONC
01-21-2013, 01:38 AM
That is part of the issue though: I'm not (at all) saying, "Champ's an awful CB," but "our safety's are awful and Champ's not as invincible at CB as he once was." Moving him wouldn't just make room for Harris and Carter/Porter as our starting CBs, but fill a position of need at safety with a player uniquely suited to it. It's two birds with one stone, because I have far more faith in our CB depth than our safety depth.


I disagree that we don't have another #1 CB; I think Harris qualifies, and that makes a big difference, too. With him fulfilling those duties I believe taking the best of Carter/Porter as our #2, putting the other at nickel, Leonhard at dime and starting Champ and Adams at safety would give us the most fearsome secondary in the league.


In other words, give Champ double coverage against #1 WRs, or just don't put him on them AT ALL. Sorry, that's doesn't sound like a #1 CB to me. I really don't expect our pass rush to solve any problems there either until/unless we have a huge overpowering NT who collapses pockets so QBs can't just step up to avoid Miller and Doom. I'd love to see one, but the Broncos faithful have been waiting for him nearly a decade to no avail. I still believe passes are stopped by good coverage anyway, especially in the era of quick short passes, hot reads and checkdowns to multiple receivers. That makes ANY weak link in the secondary a liability, and moving Champ to safety is as much about shoring up one weakness as eliminating another.


I'm not saying Champ blew any coverages, I'm saying he was at the back of the endzone just a hair after the ball, narrowly missing a game-ending pick, and that even three years ago Champ makes that play every time. He's slower now than then, and will be slower still next year. He's been visibly slowing for a while and will only continue: How slow must he become to make a move to safety not only wise, but vital?

Joel I don't believe for a minute that with a naked you can judge if Bailey slower this year.

TXBRONC
01-21-2013, 01:44 AM
Moore played fairly well all season until that play...sadly he may not be able to play in Denver again.

I don't think that one play will ruin his career. If super ninja talent evaluator Joel were the decisions then yes, but since he's not I wont be putting my trust in his evaluations.

Chef Zambini
01-21-2013, 01:51 AM
I don't think that one play will ruin his career. If super ninja talent evaluator Joel were the decisions then yes, but since he's not I wont be putting my trust in his evaluations.how does moving champ to safety "ruin his career'?
i love how some of you folks try sensationalize what JOEL and other;s post.
Seriously, isn't there room for mature discussion?
or are all you champ jersey owning dilitants too immaturwe or socialy retarded to entertain a rational, intelligent discussion/
ya know, if champ does move to safety, he can still keep his same jersey #.
really, some times I waomder why JOEL even bothers to try and have an intelligent discussion.

Poet
01-21-2013, 02:23 AM
Chef, the argument has been destroyed time and time again. You're not having an adult conversation.

Chef Zambini
01-21-2013, 02:30 AM
oh, I did not realize you had declared victory, my bad.
champ... safety... ludicrous.

Timmy!
01-21-2013, 04:25 AM
Hey Zam, i'll bet u $500 our 2nd team all pro corner plays corner next season.

MOtorboat
01-21-2013, 07:45 AM
how does moving champ to safety "ruin his career'?
i love how some of you folks try sensationalize what JOEL and other;s post.
Seriously, isn't there room for mature discussion?
or are all you champ jersey owning dilitants too immaturwe or socialy retarded to entertain a rational, intelligent discussion/
ya know, if champ does move to safety, he can still keep his same jersey #.
really, some times I waomder why JOEL even bothers to try and have an intelligent discussion.

He was talking about Rahim Moore.

Read.

TXBRONC
01-21-2013, 08:19 AM
He was talking about Rahim Moore.

Read.

Novel concept.

TXBRONC
01-21-2013, 08:28 AM
how does moving champ to safety "ruin his career'?
i love how some of you folks try sensationalize what JOEL and other;s post.
Seriously, isn't there room for mature discussion?
or are all you champ jersey owning dilitants too immaturwe or socialy retarded to entertain a rational, intelligent discussion/
ya know, if champ does move to safety, he can still keep his same jersey #.
really, some times I waomder why JOEL even bothers to try and have an intelligent discussion.

As MO pointed out reading is fundemental. I was talking about Rahim Moore genius.

Second I don't have a Champ Bailey jersey.

Chef Zambini
01-21-2013, 01:05 PM
okey dokey

Joel
01-22-2013, 03:22 PM
Joel I don't believe for a minute that with a naked you can judge if Bailey slower this year.
I'm looking at this season against the contrast of last season, and that one against the contrast of previous ones. I'm remembering commenting, just before/after we released Foxworth, IIRC, that we needed to keep him for "when Champ moves to safety as he slows down in a few years" and the folks in orange colored glasses spluttering that Champ will play longer than Blanda did. Well, it's been four years and here we are: The people who last year insisted Champ hadn't lost a step now admit he has but insist it doesn't matter. If we delay Champs move to safety until THEY think it's time we'll do it two years after he retires. :tongue:

Cornerback places a premium on speed and safety on experience, which is why so many great CBs make the move late in their career. That, and that he's always been known for his savvy and experience, is also why when Champ turned 30 many people inevitably started thinking about him doing the same. Again, unless he picked up some mystical secret playing with Darrell Green, it's a question of when, not if.

As for Moore, I recently asked one of his boosters for a highlight reel displaying his great plays and contributions, but have yet to see it. Everytime I pin someone down on what they specifically like about him it's that "he's much better than his rookie season" when he was absolutely horrid. It reminds me of last years conversations on Beadles and Walton (though Beadles IS better this year, especially at pulling and run blocking downfield; that said, if you've got the speed, blocking a LB or, better yet, safety, who's giving up 50+ lbs. is much easier than blocking a DT.) Call me old fashioned, but I think even a second year safety needs more credentials than "he's not a massive out-of-position hole in our D all the time anymore." Right; this year he was just a massive out-of-position hole in our D when it mattered most.

If Champ had been playing FS we would've had the Pats in Mile High Sunday, then probably SF in New Orleans. Perhaps the saddest thing is that Carter had the primary coverage and Harris was on Boldin: Champ COULD HAVE been playing FS then. Oh, well....

MOtorboat
01-22-2013, 04:32 PM
Other than Rod Woodson, name one other Hall of Fame cornerback who switched to safety at the end of his career (Don't say Ronnie Lott...he switched at age 26).

See, the thing is people are acting as if this is a natural progression, but there is very little precedent to say that it's a natural progression.

We have: Rod Woodson, who switched after foot surgery, and Ronde Barber, whose like 80 (that's hyperbole meant for comedic purposes, he's actually 37) and the switch didn't really work...

TXBRONC
01-22-2013, 05:02 PM
I'm looking at this season against the contrast of last season, and that one against the contrast of previous ones. I'm remembering commenting, just before/after we released Foxworth, IIRC, that we needed to keep him for "when Champ moves to safety as he slows down in a few years" and the folks in orange colored glasses spluttering that Champ will play longer than Blanda did. Well, it's been four years and here we are: The people who last year insisted Champ hadn't lost a step now admit he has but insist it doesn't matter. If we delay Champs move to safety until THEY think it's time we'll do it two years after he retires. :tongue:

Cornerback places a premium on speed and safety on experience, which is why so many great CBs make the move late in their career. That, and that he's always been known for his savvy and experience, is also why when Champ turned 30 many people inevitably started thinking about him doing the same. Again, unless he picked up some mystical secret playing with Darrell Green, it's a question of when, not if.

As for Moore, I recently asked one of his boosters for a highlight reel displaying his great plays and contributions, but have yet to see it. Everytime I pin someone down on what they specifically like about him it's that "he's much better than his rookie season" when he was absolutely horrid. It reminds me of last years conversations on Beadles and Walton (though Beadles IS better this year, especially at pulling and run blocking downfield; that said, if you've got the speed, blocking a LB or, better yet, safety, who's giving up 50+ lbs. is much easier than blocking a DT.) Call me old fashioned, but I think even a second year safety needs more credentials than "he's not a massive out-of-position hole in our D all the time anymore." Right; this year he was just a massive out-of-position hole in our D when it mattered most.

If Champ had been playing FS we would've had the Pats in Mile High Sunday, then probably SF in New Orleans. Perhaps the saddest thing is that Carter had the primary coverage and Harris was on Boldin: Champ COULD HAVE been playing FS then. Oh, well....

My answer implied you were making a comparison. You seem to be the only person making an issue out whether or Champ has lost a step. Losing a step doesn't automatically mean he can't still play the position too say otherwise is hogwash.

If so many great corner back made this transition from corner back to safety name them. I can think of only one and that's Rod Woodson. Charles Woodson has transitioned to safety it would foolish to say it was a great move considering that he missed more than half the season.

Good for you. You know that Denver would be in the Super Bowl if only Champ had been moved safety. I don't make assumption like that because there is no way to prove it.

Quite honestly I'm just don't argument convincing.

TXBRONC
01-22-2013, 05:05 PM
Other than Rod Woodson, name one other Hall of Fame cornerback who switched to safety at the end of his career (Don't say Ronnie Lott...he switched at age 26).

See, the thing is people are acting as if this is a natural progression, but there is very little precedent to say that it's a natural progression.

We have: Rod Woodson, who switched after foot surgery, and Ronde Barber, whose like 80 (that's hyperbole meant for comedic purposes, he's actually 37) and the switch didn't really work...

Charles Woodson made the switch this season as well but he missed more than half the season with an injury so at this point it would be rather ridiculous to say it was great move.

MOtorboat
01-22-2013, 05:14 PM
Charles Woodson made the switch this season as well but he missed more than half the season with an injury so at this point it would be rather ridiculous to say it was great move.

Woodson was moved inside to the slot, not to safety. And the reason is they wanted to try and recreate his 2009 season, in which he won the DPOY by generally causing havoc. Of course he did it from a different position (outside corner, rather than slot corner), but never mind that...

cmc0605
01-22-2013, 05:58 PM
I agree with MOtorboat that a) it is difficult to find many good examples of a cornerback-to-safety transition in NFL history, and also b) it is not self-evident that such a transition would be smooth. There are many aspects to such a transition that go beyond a player getting slower.

Be careful with MOtorboats argument though, because the NFL is also changing in such a way that the importance of various positions, and how they are played, is much different than it was 20 years ago. Also, various team models (e.g., New England) call for diverse players who can execute a variety of assignments. A hybrid safety-corner player is not out of the question. With the emergence of the tight end as a dominant-threat position, I think the safety position will become a bit more critical in the coming decade. Obviously the ability to transition is going to depend on coaches and scheme as well: Is Champ primarily covering tight ends or is he a free-roamer? Does he play near the line or 20 yards back? Being a safety calls for a more diverse set of assignments than corner, but looking at the skill-sets that most safeties have (see below), I think it's something he can handle...of course he needs to prove that.

For a CB to move to safety, there needs to be a couple criteria met at minimum...1) They need to be strong tacklers 2) They need to be instinctive players. Champ Bailey is well above average in both those categories than most CBs in the NFL, so I think the move makes more sense for him than for corners who may be "fast" but don't tackle hard or rely too much on athleticism. This isn't to say the move would be a natural progression with Champ, but it is better worth the shot when the time comes, but that is a decision that both coaches and Champ need to make...I still think he has at least one good year of corner in him. There are a lot of reasons why the Ravens game is not a compelling case that he has slowed down significantly enough.

I actually don't think this is a "stupid" argument though, but it might be worn out.

TXBRONC
01-22-2013, 08:35 PM
Woodson was moved inside to the slot, not to safety. And the reason is they wanted to try and recreate his 2009 season, in which he won the DPOY by generally causing havoc. Of course he did it from a different position (outside corner, rather than slot corner), but never mind that...

I want to get to deep into this either but Woodson is listed as safety. I watched Packers game earlier this year they made mention of him moving to safety. However, that doesn't mean Woodson doesn't play in at some of the time.

Ravage!!!
01-23-2013, 01:14 PM
Yeah...as far as I know, Woodson moved to safety for the Packers.

As far as what other safety was moved from Corner... well not only is Rod Woodson, but so was Ronnie Lott. Ronnie Lott was about to be cut because he couldn't make it as a corner. They moved him to safety.

As for the OP. :whoknows:

There is absolutely no doubt that Champ has lost a step, we knew that last year and year before. But that doesn't mean he isn't still very good at corner. Since its been shown that teams can move guys that are about to be cut from corner to safety, and guys that had major knee injuries to safety, then there is no RUSH to move Champ to safety if he's still able to play corner at a starter's ability. A good corner is MORE valuable than a safety, hence, why they wait until a corner can no longer play corner, to move him to safety. If he wasn't more valuable as a corner, then they would move them sooner.

We saw champ get beaten by the really fast guys in Smith and AJ Green (and were they both in cold weather??). But other than that, Champ had a great year. Time to move him to safety? :whoknows: Maybe. But if you are trying to use the end of the Raven's game as proof, well, that play SHOULD have been made by any safety in the NFL. Horrendous play.

bcbronc
01-23-2013, 08:52 PM
Other than Rod Woodson, name one other Hall of Fame cornerback who switched to safety at the end of his career (Don't say Ronnie Lott...he switched at age 26).

See, the thing is people are acting as if this is a natural progression, but there is very little precedent to say that it's a natural progression.

We have: Rod Woodson, who switched after foot surgery, and Ronde Barber, whose like 80 (that's hyperbole meant for comedic purposes, he's actually 37) and the switch didn't really work...

Aeneus (SP?) Williams is a HOF finalist this year...he moved to safety and extended his career by a few years. There was a guy in StL a few years back, not a HOFer and can't recall the name off the top of my head, but he was a good CB but a better S at the twilight of his career.

Really though, the most important thing is TWO HOFers did it THIS year...call it a trend.

And even more important is the simple fact that NO ONE has said EVERY corner can make the move. MOST corners CAN'T. Take Rod Woodson, obviously made a successful transition and was a great S. The other great CB of the time, Deion Sanders, would have made a horrible safety and no one considered that change. Just like I believe Champ next year would have more impact from FS than CB, but I think Revis would suck as a safety. So I agree that it's not a "natural progression". But because CB requires a higher degree of athleticism than probably any other position in all of sport, it makes sense to move a corner with the right attributes to safety at a point where instead of just being a good or very good corner, he'd be a great safety. This has been beaten to death, but that's where I feel Champ is today.

Here's a quote from the Texan's GM Rick Smith in Rahim Moore's draft year:

"The transition from corner to safety, as long as you have a guy who is physical and who will tackle and has some football awareness, then you’ve got a chance. The guys that are out there that are just fast and can cover and really have tunnel vision, they don’t make good safeties because obviously you have to have a guy that understands what you’re asking everybody to do in the context of the whole defense. He has to be a smart guy and a guy who can tackle. If you’ve got that, then you have a good chance of getting a guy that can transition."

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/39716/texans-stance-on-moving-corners-to-safety

So just like it's not a "natural progression" it's also not some crazy hair-brained idea that no one has ever considered before. It hasn't happened a ton so far, but that's at least partly because most CBs don't have the skill set to make the change. Champ, imo, absolutely does.

Poet
01-23-2013, 08:54 PM
Are you thinking of Seahorn?

bcbronc
01-23-2013, 09:02 PM
seahorn was a Giant no?

Oh, just got it, a Viking actually...Corey Chavous. But now that I remember who I was thinking about, not sure how much of his career he played CB...

MOtorboat
01-23-2013, 09:03 PM
"The transition from corner to safety, as long as you have a guy who is physical and who will tackle and has some football awareness, then you’ve got a chance."

You've got a chance.

Here in lies my problem, and why I think it's dumb. You've got a chance.

You have an All-Pro, Top 5 cornerback in the game. You move him to safety. Not only do you have to REPLACE a Top 5 cornerback, you have a "chance" at getting a good safety.

Leave the Top 5 cornerback at cornerback, and try to find you a good safety. Then you're only gambling on one position, and not two.

MOtorboat
01-23-2013, 09:07 PM
seahorn was a Giant no?

Oh, just got it, a Viking actually...Corey Chavous. But now that I remember who I was thinking about, not sure how much of his career he played CB...

Chavous played two and a half seasons before the age of 26 at cornerback. You got me on Williams. At age 35 he had a good season at FS, before he was injured for a year and retired.

MOtorboat
01-23-2013, 09:08 PM
Are you thinking of Seahorn?

He moved around in his final season at age 32, but wasn't very successful anywhere. I think he had bad knees.

Poet
01-23-2013, 09:11 PM
seahorn was a Giant no?

Oh, just got it, a Viking actually...Corey Chavous. But now that I remember who I was thinking about, not sure how much of his career he played CB...

He was Ram for a little bit. I think he had one nice year for them at corner and then it just sort of hit the fan for him as a player.

bcbronc
01-23-2013, 09:19 PM
You've got a chance.

Here in lies my problem, and why I think it's dumb. You've got a chance.

You have an All-Pro, Top 5 cornerback in the game. You move him to safety. Not only do you have to REPLACE a Top 5 cornerback, you have a "chance" at getting a good safety.

Leave the Top 5 cornerback at cornerback, and try to find you a good safety. Then you're only gambling on one position, and not two.

No, you're gambling either way. Champ's game has been declining for a few years now. Yes, he's still one of the better CBs in the game--says something about both his ability and the dearth of CB talent imo. This year I actually feel he played better than he has the past couple, mostly because he was healthier. But there's no arguing that Champ has lost a step and is no longer the DPOTY-calibre CB he was. If you start the season and find out Champ has lost another half step and is now only a good CB, not a great one, not a top 5, then what?

I've said many times that if you are going to move Champ, it has to be done in the offseason, not midseason. I've also said I'd prefer to make a move (if it happens) one year to early than one year too late. So the gamble is both ways...move him to safety and take that risk, or keep him at CB and hope he hasn't lost another step. I personally feel the move to safety is pretty low risk, and I also feel the "lost too many steps for CB" is inevitable. Maybe it doesn't happen next year, but if it does we'll have no choice but to try to adjust on the fly and ride the year out.

Really though, for me the ultimate is not CB or S, but DB. Champ should be used like GB has used Charles Woodson the last few years. Some gameplans/situations let him roam centerfield. In nickle/dime, you can man him up. Get him close to the LOS where he can blitz or jump under shorter routes. I hate the fact that one of the greatest defensive talents in the history of the game has also been on some of the worst defenses in league history. That says to me he hasn't been used right while he was in his prime, and I don't want to see him become a shell of himself out on the island.

MOtorboat
01-23-2013, 09:24 PM
The only game he "lost a step" in was the Baltimore game. Maybe you could say that against A.J. Green. Maybe.

He's still a Top 5, All Pro corner, and it's not because the other players aren't good enough to be top 5 (nice little pot shot at Bailey though). It's because he's a top 5 corner. So instead of gambling on moving him, find a safety. Thankfully, I don't think Del Rio is an idiot. A little lazy maybe, but not stupid.

Cugel
01-24-2013, 10:17 PM
Too soon to tell, but he's progressing nicely, and the similarities are marked.

Actually, the similarities aren't marked at all. Champ was the 7th pick of the draft. He was considered an elite CB from day 1. Chris Harris was 10th on the depth chart at the start of last season. He's made lots of progress and is now solidified as the #2 CB which is nice.

But, he's no Champ Bailey and never will be. :coffee:


He's very good in coverage, has good instincts/anticipation and is a great wrap up tackler who never misses, sometimes even coming up to make plays against the run. All classic Champ Bailey habits, and he's in, what, his second year? Everyone keeps talking about how "improved" Rahim Moore is in his second year (though not so much after last week,) but if he'd improved half as much as Harris we'd be suiting up to host the AFCCG tomorrow.

Well, Harris is certainly a better player now than Rahim Moore. That's rather a straw man. But, is he really a #1 CB in this league? Probably not. At least not yet.

If he keeps improving then fine. But, Champ Bailey is a first ballot consensus Hall of Famer. If you think Chris Harris is anything like that you have drunk WAY too much cool-aid.

My earlier post stands.

IF the Broncos moved Bailey to S (they won't) it would create a log-jam with all the safeties (Quinton Carter, Rahim Moore, Mike Adams and Champ, not to mention Jim Leonhard who will make the team because of Special Teams).

It don't add up!

Then they would be terribly short on CBs with only Harris and Tony Carter being any good. IF Bolden develops tremendously in this off-season they would have a nickel back, but that is not a lot of depth.

And Bolden has not impressed anybody yet.

This whole discussion is pointless because the Broncos have ZERO intention of moving Bailey to safety this year. And they would need to get at least TWO CBs via FA to do it. (They also have to replace Tracy Porter).

Frankly, I predict that the Broncos will NOT sign a FA CB this off season. They might draft one, but I wouldn't expect much change at all in the secondary.

They have much bigger issues up front.

Ty Warren is going to have to retire. They're getting back starting LDE Jason Hunter and Jeremy Beal, but are those two good enough? Can Derek Wolfe bulk up enough to become a starting DT or do they need to find one in FA? Will they take another DT in the draft?

D. J. Williams is due $6 million next year and Wesley Woodyard has taken his spot. He's gone.

Keith Brooking may retire, and even if not, he's old enough to remember men's platform shoes and bell bottom pants.

Joe Mays signed a $4.5 million contract just this off-season, but the thought of him covering Rob Gronkowski over the middle does not inspire confidence. They need an upgrade at MLB.

There's even bigger problems strengthening the OL where Chris Kuper has been seriously slowed by injury and Manny Ramirez is less than stellar. They need an elite G in the worst way.

And of course, a big bruising RB who can move the pile wouldn't hurt.

All in all, there are lots of things to worry about more than CB.

Chef Zambini
01-25-2013, 10:29 AM
I have always felt that champ could make a greater impact at safety.
Not to discredit his one on one play, quite the contrary.
he has been so good for so long, opposing QBs have sought success elsewhere.
CUGEL, points out the greater needs of the team at this time and the current mix of CBs and S does noit favor a move at this time.
I can appreciate that, he makes a valid arguement.
he does not pretend that champ is ill suited for the role.
he does not feel compelled to call other posters moron or idiot or lunatic.
he just makes a convincing arguement as to why moving champ at this time is not in the best interest of the team.
and that has ALWAYS been my focus, what is in the best interest of the team.
thanks for your perspective, cugel.

bcbronc
01-25-2013, 04:09 PM
The only game he "lost a step" in was the Baltimore game. Maybe you could say that against A.J. Green. Maybe.

So Champ is the same athlete at 35 as he was at 25. Ya, that's rational. If you haven't seen he's had more balls caught on him over the past couple years than he used to (non-elite #1s never used to get a sniff, now they'll convert a key 3rd down here and there) you're either not paying attention or not wanting to see it.


He's still a Top 5, All Pro corner, and it's not because the other players aren't good enough to be top 5 (nice little pot shot at Bailey though). It's because he's a top 5 corner. So instead of gambling on moving him, find a safety. Thankfully, I don't think Del Rio is an idiot. A little lazy maybe, but not stupid.

Pot shot? You're such a drama queen. Champ's still playing at a high level and deserves his All-Pro nod. My point is that they guy is 34 and there's not really many elite man-cover guys nipping at his heals to be the best in the game. Guys that were supposed to be those guys--Revis, Asomugha--have lost their luster a bit. Look at the other 3 All-Pro corners: Sherman of the Seahawks, and Tillman/Jennings from the Bears, are big, physical Cover 2 type guys.

The question at hand though isn't whether Champ was a top CB in 2012--he was. It's whether he will be in 2013.




My earlier post stands.

IF the Broncos moved Bailey to S (they won't) it would create a log-jam with all the safeties (Quinton Carter, Rahim Moore, Mike Adams and Champ, not to mention Jim Leonhard who will make the team because of Special Teams).

It don't add up!

Then they would be terribly short on CBs with only Harris and Tony Carter being any good. IF Bolden develops tremendously in this off-season they would have a nickel back, but that is not a lot of depth.

And Bolden has not impressed anybody yet.

This whole discussion is pointless because the Broncos have ZERO intention of moving Bailey to safety this year. And they would need to get at least TWO CBs via FA to do it. (They also have to replace Tracy Porter).

Frankly, I predict that the Broncos will NOT sign a FA CB this off season. They might draft one, but I wouldn't expect much change at all in the secondary.

They have much bigger issues up front.


That's a fair point, Cug, to a degree. But running with 4 safeties is pretty normal so that wouldn't really be that much of a log jam. The four would be used situationally.

The shortage of CBs is off-set some by Champ being the 'nickle back'. Against 3 wide sets, Rahim would replace the LB instead of a CB. I think we'd have to add a vet CB through FA--a Mike Adams equivalent--and then let the vet/Carter/Boldin compete for the #2 spot in base. I'd also add one early in the draft.

It would be a downgrade on our CBs in relation to THIS season, but the theory is that the stronger safety play would lead to net gains in performance. We wouldn't ask any of our corners to be isolated 1on1 with a top WR, so it wouldn't matter that we don't have a top 5 CB.

Look at this year's Superbowl...how many top 5 CBs? Now name 4 better safeties than the 4 playing in NO. Can't help but notice the team with TWO All-Pro CBs...didn't make the playoffs.

Chef Zambini
01-25-2013, 06:44 PM
1 on 1 corners are easy reads for a QB.
a versatile, talented safety helps a defense disguise its cover scheme.

MOtorboat
01-25-2013, 06:50 PM
1 on 1 corners are easy reads for a QB.
a versatile, talented safety helps a defense disguise its cover scheme.

That's false. It has nothing to do with what position the player plays, but how the coach sets up the coverage. And quarterbacks nowadays (or the smartest ones, like Manning, Brady, Rogers, Brees, etc.) know where the safety is going too.

Magnificent Seven
01-31-2013, 05:12 PM
I think they should move Champ Bailey to free safety and give him an opportunity to play on offense. He could play wide receiver for part time. Just like Deion Sanders with the 49ers and Devin Hester with the Bears. It would be interesting to see Champ Bailey plays on offense.

dogfish
02-21-2018, 11:11 PM
sorry guys, i hate random bumps as much as anyone, but i can't help myself after this beauty popped up. . . :lol:


mods, please transfer this piece of shit to the lounge/black hole at your discretion. . .

Poet
02-22-2018, 09:40 AM
Did he ever turn into a great safety?

BroncoWave
02-22-2018, 09:43 AM
sorry guys, i hate random bumps as much as anyone, but i can't help myself after this beauty popped up. . . :lol:


mods, please transfer this piece of shit to the lounge/black hole at your discretion. . .

What are you talking about? This should go into the thread hall of fame! This thread sparked a legendary meme.

Buff
02-22-2018, 12:42 PM
I believe the answer is yes.

Slick
02-22-2018, 12:54 PM
sorry guys, i hate random bumps as much as anyone, but i can't help myself after this beauty popped up. . . :lol:


mods, please transfer this piece of shit to the lounge/black hole at your discretion. . .

Why would you want to create work for the mods? I thought we were friends.

Ain't nobody watch nothing dogfish do. You got served. You sorry.

dogfish
02-22-2018, 12:59 PM
Why would you want to create work for the mods? I thought we were friends.

Ain't nobody watch nothing dogfish do. You got served. You sorry.

:lol::lol:


damn, babycakes, just bring the hammer down why don'tcha?

Slick
02-22-2018, 01:05 PM
:lol::lol:


damn, babycakes, just bring the hammer down why don'tcha?

I had to use my Talib lingo one more time before that monster Elway sends my mainest man packing.

Buff
02-22-2018, 01:11 PM
I had to use my Talib lingo one more time before that monster Elway sends my mainest man packing.

Talib's legacy will live forever in our hearts.

Slick
02-22-2018, 01:16 PM
Talib's legacy will live forever in our hearts.

I will miss Talib 100x more than Champ Bailey.

MOtorboat
02-22-2018, 01:31 PM
:sigh:

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
02-22-2018, 01:39 PM
Did he ever turn into a great safety?

No, within months of being a high level corner he turned into a scorched corner and retired.

“Scorched corner”, I like it

Joel
02-22-2018, 06:28 PM
I will miss Talib 100x more than Champ Bailey.
I'll miss Talib about as much as he missed himself when he illegally carried a gun into a bar, then lied to cops about it. He's unworthy to be mentioned in the same breath as a classy first ballot HoFer like Champ.

Poet
02-22-2018, 06:48 PM
Talib was the better leader.

Buff
02-22-2018, 07:11 PM
I'll miss Talib about as much as he missed himself when he illegally carried a gun into a bar, then lied to cops about it. He's unworthy to be mentioned in the same breath as a classy first ballot HoFer like Champ.

I think you need to show a little more respect for our future Ring of Fame/Hall of Fame inductee.