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Denver Native (Carol)
01-05-2011, 12:44 PM
I totally understand what it is - i.e., when an NFL team is interviewing for a new HC, they must include at least one minority.

So, each team interviews at least one minority, but there is nothing that states they must hire a minority, so really, what has the rule accomplished? The only thing that it has accomplished is if the team hires the minority person they interviewed, because they feel that person is best suited for the position. I would think that any NFL team would interview/hire a person they felt best suited, regardless if minority or not.

Northman
01-05-2011, 12:46 PM
It hasnt accomplished anything really but in the eyes of the minority it shows they at least are interviewing minority canidates. However, it hasnt stopped them from complaining either. At some point they will contend that a team MUST hire a minority in order for it to be "fair".

slim
01-05-2011, 12:48 PM
The Rooney Rule has accomplished nothing, other than helping the white-guilt crowd feel better about themselves.

Dirk
01-05-2011, 12:55 PM
An out dated policy IMO.

UnderArmour
01-05-2011, 12:57 PM
Like with presidential elections, there is a pipeline of candidates for a position. Obviously certain individuals would not be considered a candidate and it would be hard to market a person as a viable candidate if public perception were not such that they were not fit to hold said position. What a head coaching interview does is put a minority's name into a potential pipeline to be hired. In Singleterry's case, being interviewed enough times resulted in him eventually becoming a head coach. In Pittsburgh's case, when an internal promotion seemed certain, the Rooney Rule got Mike Tomlin an interview and a chance to impress the Steeler's organization to get the job. I used to think the Rooney rule was a bad idea too, but in no way does it force a team to hire a certain candidate, it merely allows minorities to get their name into a pipeline of HC candidates or the name recognition from the interview might land them a position coach job somewhere.

And yes, there were racial issues in coaching prior to the Rooney Rule. Hell, look at college football. How many big time D1 programs have an African American or a Hispanic head coach? How many even have minority coordinators? Coaching can be very much a buddy system, even at the interview level. Hell, I wouldn't mind them adding a Rooney Rule for college football. It's really no big deal to give someone an interview and at worst, it forces teams to think twice before running out and hiring a big name candidate.

Nomad
01-05-2011, 01:00 PM
It hasnt accomplished anything really but in the eyes of the minority it shows they at least are interviewing minority canidates. However, it hasnt stopped them from complaining either. At some point they will contend that a team MUST hire a minority in order for it to be "fair".

Affirmative Action!!!


When will women get their shot!!:D

Denver Native (Carol)
01-05-2011, 01:05 PM
I did not start the thread with intentions of starting anything political, or anything racist - just stating how I felt about the rule.

Devilspawn
01-05-2011, 01:05 PM
It was a good rule when it was originally put in place because minority coaches were rare and their chances were just as rare.

But now I think it's become an inconvenience. If the Rooney Rule is gone, minorities will get less interviews for the obvious reasons, but I don't think (or hope) that they go back to square one with regards to equal opportunity.

NightTrainLayne
01-05-2011, 01:11 PM
Does anyone have any numbers on the number of minority coaches before the Rooney rule and now?

My own perception is that we have more minority coaches now then before. Partly, that would be due to a greater awareness of the issue by team's, and that is partly due to the Rooney rule.

I think it was a pretty good compromise that the owner's came up with themselves. It only mandated an interview, but team's were free to still hire whoever they wanted.

The key was that it raised awareness of the lack of minority coaches in a sport dominated with minority players, and as a bonus, the owner's did it themselves. They recognized a problem, and came up with a solution that seems to have worked.

Northman
01-05-2011, 01:15 PM
Does anyone have any numbers on the number of minority coaches before the Rooney rule and now?

My own perception is that we have more minority coaches now then before. Partly, that would be due to a greater awareness of the issue by team's, and that is partly due to the Rooney rule.

I think it was a pretty good compromise that the owner's came up with themselves. It only mandated an interview, but team's were free to still hire whoever they wanted.

The key was that it raised awareness of the lack of minority coaches in a sport dominated with minority players, and as a bonus, the owner's did it themselves. They recognized a problem, and came up with a solution that seems to have worked.

But at the same time ive seen cases where if a minority coach isnt hired but interviewed the team's management gets labeled as racist or just doing the interview to oblige the rooney rule. The rule itself is of great purpose but still draws the ire when a minority coach isnt selected and that is the part that always bothers me. You try to do the right thing and still get no credit.

NightTrainLayne
01-05-2011, 01:19 PM
But at the same time ive seen cases where if a minority coach isnt hired but interviewed the team's management gets labeled as racist or just doing the interview to oblige the rooney rule. The rule itself is of great purpose but still draws the ire when a minority coach isnt selected and that is the part that always bothers me. You try to do the right thing and still get no credit.

Right. At this point it may have outlived it's usefullness with the number of minority coaches.

Part of the problem back when it was introduced was that there weren't even that many assistant coaches who were minorities, and so people weren't even getting the experience necessary to make the jump to HC. That is no longer a problem either.

Devilspawn
01-05-2011, 01:24 PM
Does anyone have any numbers on the number of minority coaches before the Rooney rule and now?

My own perception is that we have more minority coaches now then before. Partly, that would be due to a greater awareness of the issue by team's, and that is partly due to the Rooney rule.

I think it was a pretty good compromise that the owner's came up with themselves. It only mandated an interview, but team's were free to still hire whoever they wanted.

The key was that it raised awareness of the lack of minority coaches in a sport dominated with minority players, and as a bonus, the owner's did it themselves. They recognized a problem, and came up with a solution that seems to have worked.
Tom Flores
Art Shell
Tony Dungy
Herm Edwards
Dennis Green

I think those were the only ones prior.

Ravage!!!
01-05-2011, 01:41 PM
It is said that Tomlin wouddn't have even gotten the job had it not been for the rule.

I was FIRMLY against it when it first originated. But what it HAS gained, is giving these coaches the ability to interview.

You learn a LOT just from the interview process. Having that chance to present your ideas, your vision, and express the direction of which you want to go and how you want to go about it... is something that gets better with experience.

Most people have never interviewed for a multi-million dollar job before. Even if they've been around the NFL for a long time, sitting in the interview chair and talking with GMs and owners about being THE man, can be extremely nerve-racking and intimidating.... no matter how good of a coach you are. Coaching and interviewing aren't necessarily the one-in-the-same.

Getting that experience, for anyone, is extremely valuable.

Dapper Dan
01-05-2011, 01:45 PM
I don't like anything that differentiates between races. In my opinion, that's the definition of racism. Everyone should be equal, isn't that the point? What if a team interviews minorities only? That wouldn't be against any rules.

People are always going to argue that there aren't enough minorities. But when it's the other way around, nothing is said. How many white players are there in the NFL?

When these issues come up, I just think back to Mike Wilbon. When NCAAF teams were naming their assistants as the next head coach he said they were doing it to keep from black coaches taking over. Though, this made him look like an idiot since Joker Phillips was named the head coach whenever Rich Brooks was ready to leave. Also, there was an uproar about Ty Willinghams firing from Notre Dame. But when other races of head coaches get less years than him, nothing is said. Willingham is just not that great of a coach. Washington seemed to do better after he left there. No one even talks about him anymore.

There are more minority head coaches because times have changed, not because of the Rooney Rule. Did the Rooney Rule help the election of the first minority President?

I just think we need to stop all of these mandatory, racist policies if we really want to help put a stop to racism.

Tned
01-05-2011, 01:52 PM
I totally understand what it is - i.e., when an NFL team is interviewing for a new HC, they must include at least one minority.

So, each team interviews at least one minority, but there is nothing that states they must hire a minority, so really, what has the rule accomplished? The only thing that it has accomplished is if the team hires the minority person they interviewed, because they feel that person is best suited for the position. I would think that any NFL team would interview/hire a person they felt best suited, regardless if minority or not.

I'm guessing in practice it has done nothing, mostly form over function. However, I suppose there could be times where being forced to interview one minority could wind up having a club interview someone they would have discounted, and then find themselves surprised that he is the best candidate.

BeefStew25
01-05-2011, 04:50 PM
I want some white cornerbacks! Yeah! I said it!

BroncoBJ
01-05-2011, 04:51 PM
Honestly, I think the rule is dumb. If someone wants to hire a black coach, or mexican or whatever kind of coach, they will do it.

All the rooney rule does is be more racist.

Basically makes teams go out, interview a minority just to get it out of the way, then they go find thier white coach.

Pretty silly rule imo.

I Eat Staples
01-05-2011, 05:06 PM
I don't like rules like this one bit. I am against all forms of discrimination, but implementing rules like these are unfair to employers and, if anything, encourage discrimination as well as reverse discrimination because it forces employers to look at possible employees by their race and not their character, capability, qualifications etc.

Everyone should be viewed equally, but rules to "protect" minorities prevent this from happening. They may have been necessary at one point due to the large amount of segregation in our society, but for us to truly have equality race needs to not be acknowledged at all.

DenBronx
01-05-2011, 05:16 PM
It's a dumb outdated rule.

Dirk
01-05-2011, 05:45 PM
Like I said before. It's out dated.

At one point in time, there was a meaningful reason why it was instituted. Now not so much. Now that black coaches have proved they can win just as well as a white or any other color coach, it doesn't need to be in place.

Owners will hire who they want to.

BigSarge87
01-05-2011, 06:18 PM
I want some white cornerbacks! Yeah! I said it!

Damn right! I just think that becuase a CB is white he is automatically overlooked and isn't given the proper chance to compete for a position as a CB on the team.

Therefore, for now on, we need a rule that coaches must let at least one white dude try out for cornerback regardless of his skill set or abilities.

Let's call it the Whitey rule. LOL

IDK, I just think giving any person an opportunity they wouldn't have normally had based on their MERIT alone is the very definition of racism.

But I suppose I'm just an igorant white guy from Utah.

bcbronc
01-05-2011, 06:34 PM
I agree that the rule has served its purpose. But imo it did have a purpose to serve.

But look at QBs as a proxy...there was a time not too long ago that Doug Williams and Randall Cunningham were not discussed as "QBs" but as "black QBs". But today, short of maybe a handful of tue racists, nobody feels the need to describe Vick, McNabb or Garrard as anythiong but QB.

Same goes with coaching. Looka t Leslie Frazer, nobody wastes commentary time talking about the colour of his skin.

The Rooney Rule is, imo, an example of how affirmative action is *supposed* to work. But now that it has, it's time to take the next step and remove the false duality of white/non-white from the equation.
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Dirk
01-05-2011, 06:35 PM
I agree that the rule has served its purpose. But imo it did have a purpose to serve.

But look at QBs as a proxy...there was a time not too long ago that Doug Williams and Randall Cunningham were not discussed as "QBs" but as "black QBs". But today, short of maybe a handful of tue racists, nobody feels the need to describe Vick, McNabb or Garrard as anythiong but QB.

Same goes with coaching. Looka t Leslie Frazer, nobody wastes commentary time talking about the colour of his skin.

The Rooney Rule is, imo, an example of how affirmative action is *supposed* to work. But now that it has, it's time to take the next step and remove the false duality of white/non-white from the equation.
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Exactly

Juriga72
01-05-2011, 07:19 PM
I agree that the rule has served its purpose. But imo it did have a purpose to serve.

But look at QBs as a proxy...there was a time not too long ago that Doug Williams and Randall Cunningham were not discussed as "QBs" but as "black QBs". But today, short of maybe a handful of tue racists, nobody feels the need to describe Vick, McNabb or Garrard as anythiong but QB.

Same goes with coaching. Looka t Leslie Frazer, nobody wastes commentary time talking about the colour of his skin.

The Rooney Rule is, imo, an example of how affirmative action is *supposed* to work. But now that it has, it's time to take the next step and remove the false duality of white/non-white from the equation.
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Frazer had paid his dues WAY more than many so called "Flavor of the days".

Hell... just look at McDummy and HIS "coaching career"

1999-2000
Michigan State
(Graduate Assistant)
2001
New England Patriots
(Personnel Assistant)
2002-2003
New England Patriots
(Defensive Coaching
Assistant)
2004-2008
New England Patriots
(Quarterbacks Coach)
2006-2008
New England Patriots
(Offensive Coordinator)
2009-2010
Denver Broncos
(Head Coach)

WHICH part of this screams..."NFL Head Coach material"

Dapper Dan
01-05-2011, 07:33 PM
Frazer had paid his dues WAY more than many so called "Flavor of the days".

Hell... just look at McDummy and HIS "coaching career"

1999-2000
Michigan State
(Graduate Assistant)
2001
New England Patriots
(Personnel Assistant)
2002-2003
New England Patriots
(Defensive Coaching
Assistant)
2004-2008
New England Patriots
(Quarterbacks Coach)
2006-2008
New England Patriots
(Offensive Coordinator)
2009-2010
Denver Broncos
(Head Coach)

WHICH part of this screams..."NFL Head Coach material"

Most coordinators of very good teams become head coaches. And if he were black people would have screamed racism at Denver giving him less than 2 full years.

zbeg
01-05-2011, 08:15 PM
Frazer had paid his dues WAY more than many so called "Flavor of the days".

Hell... just look at McDummy and HIS "coaching career"

1999-2000
Michigan State
(Graduate Assistant)
2001
New England Patriots
(Personnel Assistant)
2002-2003
New England Patriots
(Defensive Coaching
Assistant)
2004-2008
New England Patriots
(Quarterbacks Coach)
2006-2008
New England Patriots
(Offensive Coordinator)
2009-2010
Denver Broncos
(Head Coach)

WHICH part of this screams..."NFL Head Coach material"

The part that had him as an understudy to the greatest coach of our generation for seven years?

frauschieze
01-05-2011, 08:43 PM
And if he were black people would have screamed racism at Denver giving him less than 2 full years.

I disagree. McD was an utter disaster no matter what color the shell. I think people can see that.

Juriga72
01-05-2011, 08:57 PM
The part that had him as an understudy to the greatest coach of our generation for seven years?

How'd THAT work out for Crennel, Weis, Mangini, McDaniels?

Juriga72
01-05-2011, 08:59 PM
Most coordinators of very good teams become head coaches. And if he were black people would have screamed racism at Denver giving him less than 2 full years.

IIRC.... Ray Rhodes got axed after ONE year of 8-8 in Green Bay... and Jesse Jackson was all over it then....LOL

atwater27
01-05-2011, 09:34 PM
I think Gay coaches need a chance to shine in the NFL spotlight. I'm calling goodell right now.

horsepig
01-05-2011, 10:06 PM
The part that had him as an understudy to the greatest coach of our generation for seven years?

Or the part that had him being an immature 32 year old dumbass.

zbeg
01-05-2011, 10:12 PM
How'd THAT work out for Crennel, Weis, Mangini, McDaniels?

You asked what part of his resume said "NFL head coach." I told you. It's not like the Broncos were the only team interested in McDaniels.

Besides, his failings were mostly personnel-related. Head coach/GM? Sure, that's a stretch, no question. As a guy who got his team to play hard every week? I thought he was just fine. The Broncos have little talent on defense, and that was the biggest shortcoming. Certainly the talent issue is his fault as a personnel guy, but he coached the on-field talent pretty well.

Put it this way: had McDaniels been the coach (not the GM, but just the coach) of the Dallas Cowboys this season, they would be preparing for a playoff matchup this weekend.

I Eat Staples
01-05-2011, 10:20 PM
Put it this way: had McDaniels been the coach (not the GM, but just the coach) of the Dallas Cowboys this season, they would be preparing for a playoff matchup this weekend.

Lol stop trolling.

UnderArmour
01-05-2011, 10:29 PM
Like I said before. It's out dated.

At one point in time, there was a meaningful reason why it was instituted. Now not so much. Now that black coaches have proved they can win just as well as a white or any other color coach, it doesn't need to be in place.

Owners will hire who they want to.

What about college football? There are currently no African American coaches in BCS programs and very few in all of D1. The difference in the coaching landscape of college and the NFL indicates that there were issues with racial diversity and that the rule had an impact in increasing the number of minority coaches hired. The Rooney Rule isn't harmful because all it does is require an interview. At worst, a team has to cloud their intentions from the media if they have someone picked out like with the Redskins and Shanahan.

I will say though, NFL teams need to be allowed to promote from within, regardless of a Rooney Rule. The Cowboys should have been permitted to promote Jason Garrett just like the 49ers and Vikings were able to do with their HCs. At the very least, the NFL needs to fix this.

BigSarge87
01-05-2011, 10:49 PM
What about college football? There are currently no African American coaches in BCS programs and very few in all of D1. The difference in the coaching landscape of college and the NFL indicates that there were issues with racial diversity and that the rule had an impact in increasing the number of minority coaches hired. The Rooney Rule isn't harmful because all it does is require an interview. At worst, a team has to cloud their intentions from the media if they have someone picked out like with the Redskins and Shanahan.

I will say though, NFL teams need to be allowed to promote from within, regardless of a Rooney Rule. The Cowboys should have been permitted to promote Jason Garrett just like the 49ers and Vikings were able to do with their HCs. At the very least, the NFL needs to fix this.

Seriously, I don't get this, please educate me. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just truly don't understand why a man's ethnicity plays a role at all in whether he gets an opportunity for a job.

Why is it even an issue? Why is it a problem that the most qualified person (in the eye of the employer) was hired? The best person should get the job. Whether they are white, black, purple or green. It shouldn't even be an issue. Making it an issue is a form of racism in my opinion.

The only time there is a problem is if there was some reason to believe a person didn't recieve an opportunity because of their race, and I just don't see that happening very often in a professional, very public atmosphere like the NCAA and NFL. They are decades ahead of our government in this regard.

BeefStew25
01-05-2011, 11:05 PM
Damn right! I just think that becuase a CB is white he is automatically overlooked and isn't given the proper chance to compete for a position as a CB on the team.

Therefore, for now on, we need a rule that coaches must let at least one white dude try out for cornerback regardless of his skill set or abilities.

Let's call it the Whitey rule. LOL

IDK, I just think giving any person an opportunity they wouldn't have normally had based on their MERIT alone is the very definition of racism.

But I suppose I'm just an igorant white guy from Utah.

Sehorn Rule

UnderArmour
01-06-2011, 01:42 AM
Seriously, I don't get this, please educate me. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just truly don't understand why a man's ethnicity plays a role at all in whether he gets an opportunity for a job.

Why is it even an issue? Why is it a problem that the most qualified person (in the eye of the employer) was hired? The best person should get the job. Whether they are white, black, purple or green. It shouldn't even be an issue. Making it an issue is a form of racism in my opinion.

The only time there is a problem is if there was some reason to believe a person didn't recieve an opportunity because of their race, and I just don't see that happening very often in a professional, very public atmosphere like the NCAA and NFL. They are decades ahead of our government in this regard.

Coaching is a fraternity; this has never been a secret. Coaches often hire/and or give/get interviews to their friends and relatives. Unfortunately for minorities, they were late to the coaching party but at least half of college football is comprised of these ethnic groups. When the demographics of the coaching ranks do not even come close to representing the demographics of the players or the general population, there are obvious issues with the process. For a minority coach trying to break into this fraternity, it can be difficult to even get an interview without connections. With NFL teams and NCAA programs under pressure to win, they will try to hire the best candidate but they also need somebody with credibility.

A rule like the Rooney Rule that gives Leslie Fraziers, Mike Tomlins, and Ron Riveras head coaching interviews inevitably makes them appear as credible candidates simply from their name popping up enough times whereas before these guys may have flown under the radar like Mike Smith or John Harbaugh. Now, while some organizations may be okay with going out on a limb with a no-name guy, many want to grab the big name coaches to sell tickets. The Rooney Rule might appear completely irrelevant this offseason with Ron Rivera and Perry Fewell, but it got these guys interviews in the past making them bigger candidates this time.

BigSarge87
01-06-2011, 10:27 AM
Coaching is a fraternity; this has never been a secret. Coaches often hire/and or give/get interviews to their friends and relatives. Unfortunately for minorities, they were late to the coaching party but at least half of college football is comprised of these ethnic groups. When the demographics of the coaching ranks do not even come close to representing the demographics of the players or the general population, there are obvious issues with the process. For a minority coach trying to break into this fraternity, it can be difficult to even get an interview without connections. With NFL teams and NCAA programs under pressure to win, they will try to hire the best candidate but they also need somebody with credibility.

A rule like the Rooney Rule that gives Leslie Fraziers, Mike Tomlins, and Ron Riveras head coaching interviews inevitably makes them appear as credible candidates simply from their name popping up enough times whereas before these guys may have flown under the radar like Mike Smith or John Harbaugh. Now, while some organizations may be okay with going out on a limb with a no-name guy, many want to grab the big name coaches to sell tickets. The Rooney Rule might appear completely irrelevant this offseason with Ron Rivera and Perry Fewell, but it got these guys interviews in the past making them bigger candidates this time.

This way of thinking is crippling to the progress of society. IMO

Why can't we look at the 'ranks of college coaches' and just see coaches? Why can't we look at quarterbacks and just see quarterbacks? Until we can stop looking at a group of people and criticizing/analyzing the ethnic make-up of that group we are absolutley propogating racism or at the very least hindering equality.

Equality is the goal. Equality doesn't mean that there are the same amount of ethnicities in every group of people. It means that all the people in that group, regardless of ethnicity, are viewed and treated the same. If you can obtain that, then you wouldn't have blacks, whites, and latinos. You would just have people. Isn't that the idea of equality?

Getting to my point.. being a part of the 'coaching fraternity' as you put it doesn't have a damn thing to do with your ethnicity anymore. It has absolutely everything to do with your pedigree, work ethic, and commitment to excellence. Today's sports environment is absolutey RESULTS based. If a coach or owner thinks a person gives them the best chance to win I promise that guy is going to get the call no matter what color he is. If someone is found guilty of contrary, they should be squashed like bug immediately, but I just don't see that happening very often in the NFL/NCAA because every tiny decision is so publicly analyzed.

White people face the same challenge of being able to get into that 'circle of trust' as minorities do. Giving a minority coach more exposure because of the color of his skin is racism any way you slice it. You can't tell me there aren't more guys out there that have the same experience and background as the minority candidates you mentioned, why didn't they get an interview?

Diversity is good, I definately see the benefit of diversity, it's played a huge part of making this country (and it's military from my view) the greatest in the world. But pushing it to a point that we give people opportunities based on race is going too far and taking us in the wrong direction, IMO.

BTW, thank you for discussing this civilly. I know it's a touchy subject for a lot of people.