PDA

View Full Version : Q&A: Orton more likely to be traded than be Tebow's mentor



TXBRONC
01-04-2011, 10:01 AM
Q&A: Orton more likely to be traded than be Tebow's mentor
By Jeff Legwold
The Denver Post
Posted: 01/04/2011 01:00:00 AM MST

Q: Isn't all of this hype about Tim Tebow being the Broncos' starting quarterback a little premature? Why get rid of Kyle Orton? Tebow still needs to work out the kinks in his game, learn the system better and learn how to be a real NFL quarterback. Keep Orton around just in case.

A: In a perfect world, that's exactly what the Broncos would do. Orton would be a veteran voice of wisdom, a sounding board, a workout partner, etc. But for the most part, that only works if the older quarterback is comfortable with the idea that he won't be a full-time starter in the NFL anymore.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_17001050

I thought it might be a good idea to keep Orton around as back up quarterback but this article by Legwold quells any thought at least for me.

TXBRONC
01-04-2011, 10:06 AM
Q&A: Orton more likely to be traded than be Tebow's mentor
By Jeff Legwold
The Denver Post
Posted: 01/04/2011 01:00:00 AM MST

Bottom line: Orton and plenty of folks calling the shots for NFL teams still believe he is a productive starting QB who can win with the right team around him.

Orton isn't ready to play the role of mentor. That showed when Tebow made the final three starts of the season. Orton wanted to play. It showed in his body language, in his limited interaction with Tebow and in what he said publicly after Tebow's promotion.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_17001050

In the last three games I noticed this but didn't pay that much attention to it. Again I didn't brings this to the table to flame Orton but rather as further evidence that we'll probably have trade him.

Nomad
01-04-2011, 10:07 AM
BRONCOS asking for a 2nd rd pick for Orton! Lot to ask!!




http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/01/04/broncos-will-want-second-round-pick-for-orton/

TXBRONC
01-04-2011, 10:18 AM
BRONCOS asking for a 2nd rd pick for Orton! Lot to ask!!




http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/01/04/broncos-will-want-second-round-pick-for-orton/

I'm not surprised that they will ask for a second pick however, I'll bet the Broncos are willing to be talked down.

Also from what I understand PFT is dead wrong about how much of Orton's contract is guaranteed. I'm sure I read just a day or two ago that's something like only $2.14 million is guaranteed.

broncofaninfla
01-04-2011, 10:28 AM
With all of the holes Mcd created on this team Denver is almost forced to trade Orton to help fill holes. Orton would be a great back up for Denver but his value is greater as trade bait given the current state of the team. I don't see his value at a second round pick but am hoping with so many teams needing a qb somebody will pay more than he is worth.

chazoe60
01-04-2011, 10:30 AM
I used to at least respect Orton's professionalism, now even that is in question.

I don't see us getting a 2nd. He's maybe the 25 th most desirable QB to have as a starter. He's only going to be atteactive to a team that is on the verge but has no real QB options at all. And even then he will be brought in as a stop gap player only.

For some reason he thinks he's a franchise QB but he's a gamemanager seat filler at the most. Orton is best suited to be a backup. He's not good enough to be the guy anywhere.

Now not only has he shown to be a shitty starting QB he's coming off as a shitty teammate as well.

powderaddict
01-04-2011, 10:38 AM
You have to trade him. The potential for a locker room split plus having a malcontent at that position offers more problems than any benefit.

Plus does anyone truly believe that Orton would be fine playing the mentor role?

TXBRONC
01-04-2011, 10:39 AM
With all of the holes Mcd created on this team Denver is almost forced to trade Orton to help fill holes. Orton would be a great back up for Denver but his value is greater as trade bait given the current state of the team. I don't see his value at a second round pick but am hoping with so many teams needing a qb somebody will pay more than he is worth.

Now I'm not convinced he would because of how disinterested he became after Tebow became the starter.

TXBRONC
01-04-2011, 10:41 AM
You have to trade him. The potential for a locker room split plus having a malcontent at that position offers more problems than any benefit.

Plus does anyone truly believe that Orton would be fine playing the mentor role?

Not after what Legwold wrote.

red98
01-04-2011, 10:44 AM
Good trade him. This team needs all the picks it can get. Even if it's a 3 or 4 pick I'd take it.

We need starters and depth so even late round picks are valuable this year.

lgenf
01-04-2011, 10:46 AM
I used to at least respect Orton's professionalism, now even that is in question.

I don't see us getting a 2nd. He's maybe the 25 th most desirable QB to have as a starter. He's only going to be atteactive to a team that is on the verge but has no real QB options at all. And even then he will be brought in as a stop gap player only.

For some reason he thinks he's a franchise QB but he's a gamemanager seat filler at the most. Orton is best suited to be a backup. He's not good enough to be the guy anywhere.

Now not only has he shown to be a shitty starting QB he's coming off as a shitty teammate as well.


he'd be good enough here in Miami

if we keep our running backs in place, our defense is set for the most part

he could throw to his buddy marshall again and would probably be a decent fit down here for the Fins.

TXBRONC
01-04-2011, 10:47 AM
Good trade him. This team needs all the picks it can get. Even if it's a 3 or 4 pick I'd take it.

We need starters and depth so even late round picks are valuable this year.

Hell I would take a fourth or fifth for because I think that's where we are lacking picks.

vandammage13
01-04-2011, 10:57 AM
Yeah...I noticed how disinterested Orton seemed in helping Tebow during the last few weeks. It was troubling to me. He clearly has no interest in being a mentor, but I don't think he'd be much of a mentor anyway, even if he were willing to be one, given his limited success. I mean, how much advice can someone provide when theyve never even played in a playoff game.

It would be like a soldier who has been deployed multiple times getting training from someone who has never been in a firefight. Once that soldier finds out that the instructor has never been deployed, that "mentor" loses all credibility.

red98
01-04-2011, 11:02 AM
he'd be good enough here in Miami

if we keep our running backs in place, our defense is set for the most part

he could throw to his buddy marshall again and would probably be a decent fit down here for the Fins.

Hmmm. That actually makes sense. I could see it happening.

chazoe60
01-04-2011, 11:10 AM
Another thing to think about is whether or not teams would be scared thinking that Orton won't put up near the numbers in another system. One thing is for certain, McD's system inflates a QBs stats.
What I noticed from Orton was a tendency to stare down receivers and throw low to wide open guys. Remember the Jets game? How many time did he toss it up to a covered Lloyd on a go route. And he was usually blanketed by Revis, not a good idea Kyle.

I don't see many teams looking around, watching film, and coming to the conclusion that must have Kyle Orton.

Not to mention he's going to piss off the fanbase wherever he goes with his lethargic attitude and his piss poor leadership skills.

vandammage13
01-04-2011, 11:14 AM
Hmmm. That actually makes sense. I could see it happening.

I don't think so...Miami has been burned way too many times on retread QBs since Marino left. Henne's not the guy either, but I think they'll probably try to get Mallet or Gabbert in the first round. Miami hasn't invested a first rounder in a QB since Marino left, and it hasn't worked out well for them. This will be the year they roll the dice on a QB in the draft, and they'll probably stick with Henne 1 more year while the new guy gets ready.

BroncoJoe
01-04-2011, 11:21 AM
Good trade him. This team needs all the picks it can get. Even if it's a 3 or 4 pick I'd take it.

We need starters and depth so even late round picks are valuable this year.

He is probably worth a 3rd and a 5th. Maybe a 3rd and a 4th.

TXBRONC
01-04-2011, 11:31 AM
He is probably worth a 3rd and a 5th. Maybe a 3rd and a 4th.

I think that would be ideal if we could get two pick for him.

red98
01-04-2011, 11:56 AM
I don't think so...Miami has been burned way too many times on retread QBs since Marino left. Henne's not the guy either, but I think they'll probably try to get Mallet or Gabbert in the first round. Miami hasn't invested a first rounder in a QB since Marino left, and it hasn't worked out well for them. This will be the year they roll the dice on a QB in the draft, and they'll probably stick with Henne 1 more year while the new guy gets ready.

You're probably right. But it's precisely their treatment of the position in recent years that makes me think they could continue on that way and trade for Orton.

They should do what you said, but their history says they won't.

vandammage13
01-04-2011, 12:07 PM
You're probably right. But it's precisely their treatment of the position in recent years that makes me think they could continue on that way and trade for Orton.

They should do what you said, but their history says they won't.

Yeah, their recent history lends creedence that they might go with another retread, but at some point they will learn from their mistakes.

Assuming they go for another retread, there's no guarantee that Orton would be that guy. There are other QB's that might be available as well if they go that route that might come cheaper than Orton. Vince Young, Donovan McNabb, Alex Smith, or even Matt Leinart are all guys that could get a look as well and will come at a lower price than a 2nd rounder and 8.3 million dollars....Not saying those guys are any good, but its not like Orton is head and shoulders above them either.

BigSarge87
01-04-2011, 12:16 PM
I still don't understand why a 2nd is too high for him. I know its the cool thing on the forums right now to flame Orton but for most of the season the majority of people here wanted to lick his cup clean after games. (Yeah, soak that image in for a bit, LOL)

It's not like McDaniels system was so different from anyone elses that he couldn't be a successful game manager on a team with a decent defense (49ers?) Not every team is going to land Andrew Luck. Orton is good enough to be a starter on many teams that need a QB and those teams are going to be far more optimistic about him than we are right now. I would think a starting QB with the experience Orton has is worth at least a 2nd or high 3rd this year and a 3rd next year.

vandammage13
01-04-2011, 12:23 PM
I suppose if the Chargers can get a 2nd for Charlie Whitehurst then maybe the Broncos can dupe someone into giving up a #2 for Orton. I also think the Dolphins gave up a #2 for AJ Feely a few years back, so there is precedent.

chazoe60
01-04-2011, 12:26 PM
I suppose if the Chargers can get a 2nd for Charlie Whitehurst then maybe the Broncos can dupe someone into giving up a #2 for Orton. I also think the Dolphins gave up a #2 for AJ Feely a few years back, so there is precedent.

The problem with that reasoning is that those guys were valued because of their future potential to become franchise QBs. Orton does not have that potential and teams know that. Orton is what he is, and what he's worth is a mid round pick. We gave a 5th for him, he was drafted in the 4th. I don't see his value going up much from that. Also, has he had a season yet that he didn't suffer nagging injuries? Teams will take all that stuff into account.

BigSarge87
01-04-2011, 12:26 PM
Yeah, their recent history lends creedence that they might go with another retread, but at some point they will learn from their mistakes.

Assuming they go for another retread, there's no guarantee that Orton would be that guy. There are other QB's that might be available as well if they go that route that might come cheaper than Orton. Vince Young, Donovan McNabb, Alex Smith, or even Matt Leinart are all guys that could get a look as well and will come at a lower price than a 2nd rounder and 8.3 million dollars....Not saying those guys are any good, but its not like Orton is head and shoulders above them either.

Orton is far more valuable than any of those guys. Orton wasn't benched because he was a failure, he was benched becuase we the fans wanted Tebow and Bowlen wanted us to remain fans.

All of the players you mentioned absolutely fell apart. Orton is a tier above all of those guys as far as free agents go.

For the record, I don't want Orton back, I'm as excited about Tebow as anyone, I just think Orton holds more value than what people here are giving him and I want to get as much as possible for him.

BigSarge87
01-04-2011, 12:28 PM
I suppose if the Chargers can get a 2nd for Charlie Whitehurst then maybe the Broncos can dupe someone into giving up a #2 for Orton. I also think the Dolphins gave up a #2 for AJ Feely a few years back, so there is precedent.

Excellent point.

BigSarge87
01-04-2011, 12:36 PM
The problem with that reasoning is that those guys were valued because of their future potential to become franchise QBs. Orton does not have that potential and teams know that. Orton is what he is, and what he's worth is a mid round pick. We gave a 5th for him, he was drafted in the 4th. I don't see his value going up much from that. Also, has he had a season yet that he didn't suffer nagging injuries? Teams will take all that stuff into account.

IMO your reaching here big time. There's no reason he can't go a team and be a successful quarterback for many years.

We gave up a 5th for him? That's about as smart as saying we traded Cutler to get him so he's worth a 1st.

Every player suffers nagging injuries, he played pretty tough for the most part and provided a ton of leadership on a team that has none. Teams will take that into account also.

chazoe60
01-04-2011, 12:38 PM
IMO your reaching here big time. There's no reason he can't go a team and be a successful quarterback for many years.

We gave up a 5th for him? That's about as smart as saying we traded Cutler to get him so he's worth a 1st.

Every player suffers nagging injuries, he played pretty tough for the most part and provided a ton of leadership on a team that has none. Teams will take that into account also.

So, what did we trade for him? Sorry, but its common knowledge we threw in the 5th round pick to get Orton in that trade.

vandammage13
01-04-2011, 12:39 PM
Orton is far more valuable than any of those guys. Orton wasn't benched because he was a failure, he was benched becuase we the fans wanted Tebow and Bowlen wanted us to remain fans.

All of the players you mentioned absolutely fell apart. Orton is a tier above all of those guys as far as free agents go.

For the record, I don't want Orton back, I'm as excited about Tebow as anyone, I just think Orton holds more value than what people here are giving him and I want to get as much as possible for him.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but your point is easily debated.

Personally, I don't think any of the mentioned QBs (including Orton) are worth a 2nd rounder, but that doesn't mean that I don't think someone might overpay for them.

BigSarge87
01-04-2011, 12:42 PM
So, what did we trade for him? Sorry, but its common knowledge we threw in the 5th round pick to get Orton in that trade.

You'll have to point me to the common knowledge website because I can't find it.

We threw in the 5th to get the deal done. Not to land Orton.

BigSarge87
01-04-2011, 12:46 PM
I'm not saying you are wrong, but your point is easily debated.

Personally, I don't think any of the mentioned QBs (including Orton) are worth a 2nd rounder, but that doesn't mean that I don't think someone might overpay for them.

True, I don't think any of those quarterbacks are even tradable. I think they will all likely be cut with the exception of Orton.

Juriga72
01-04-2011, 12:47 PM
You have to trade him. The potential for a locker room split plus having a malcontent at that position offers more problems than any benefit.

Plus does anyone truly believe that Orton would be fine playing the mentor role?

Look at HIS mentor....

IIRC he called Brian Griese "MY go to guy"....ouch. Maybe for advice on tripping over labs..... getting drunk and falling on teammates driveways.....

chazoe60
01-04-2011, 12:54 PM
You'll have to point me to the common knowledge website because I can't find it.

We threw in the 5th to get the deal done. Not to land Orton.
Well we'll agree to disagree I guess.

You'll have to point me to the common knowledge website because I can't find it.

We threw in the 5th to get the deal done. Not to land Orton.



I do want to know when Orton showed a ton of leadership though? Was it when he was sulking after Tebow got the nod? Was it when he gave up on drives on third down by falling to the fetal position with no one touching him? Was it the way he rallied the troops? Was it his never say die attitude? How about the way he came through in the clutch?

Sorry, but Kyle Orton is as devoid of leadership skills as any regular starting QB I have ever witnessed for the Denver Broncos. The difference in the fire of this team under Studesville/Tebow combo vs. McD/Orton combo is unmeasurable. I don't know how much is the HC change but I do know there was a huge difference.

Orton is not a leader and his actions and words as of late have proven that.

vandammage13
01-04-2011, 12:57 PM
Well we'll agree to disagree I guess.




I do want to know when Orton showed a ton of leadership though? Was it when he was sulking after Tebow got the nod? Was it when he gave up on drives on third down by falling to the fetal position with no one touching him? Was it the way he rallied the troops? Was it his never say die attitude? How about the way he came through in the clutch?

Sorry, but Kyle Orton is as devoid of leadership skills as any regular starting QB I have ever witnessed for the Denver Broncos. The difference in the fire of this team under Studesville/Tebow combo vs. McD/Orton combo is unmeasurable. I don't know how much is the HC change but I do know there was a huge difference.

Orton is not a leader and his actions and words as of late have proven that.

I didn't see much leadership from him either. I'm not calling him a cancer or anything, but he certainly doesn't have the leadership skills that it takes to play the most difficult position in all of sports.

TXBRONC
01-04-2011, 01:04 PM
I still don't understand why a 2nd is too high for him. I know its the cool thing on the forums right now to flame Orton but for most of the season the majority of people here wanted to lick his cup clean after games. (Yeah, soak that image in for a bit, LOL)

It's not like McDaniels system was so different from anyone elses that he couldn't be a successful game manager on a team with a decent defense (49ers?) Not every team is going to land Andrew Luck. Orton is good enough to be a starter on many teams that need a QB and those teams are going to be far more optimistic about him than we are right now. I would think a starting QB with the experience Orton has is worth at least a 2nd or high 3rd this year and a 3rd next year.

I don't see how saying Orton isn't worth a second round pick is flaming him.

I think a lot of teams would see him as solid starter who wont win you many games nor lose you many because he's pretty careful with ball. In other words if he doesn't have a lot help he can't carry a team because he's not a player maker. Just this year alone we've had five winnable games while he was the starting quarterback but we didn't win any of them. Four those games we had the ball for the last meaningful possession and the other game stayed within one possession of taking the lead entire game.

TXBRONC
01-04-2011, 01:08 PM
Orton is far more valuable than any of those guys. Orton wasn't benched because he was a failure, he was benched becuase we the fans wanted Tebow and Bowlen wanted us to remain fans.

All of the players you mentioned absolutely fell apart. Orton is a tier above all of those guys as far as free agents go.

For the record, I don't want Orton back, I'm as excited about Tebow as anyone, I just think Orton holds more value than what people here are giving him and I want to get as much as possible for him.

I disagree it was us fans that caused him to be benched. In 13 games with Orton as the starter we were 3-10.

chazoe60
01-04-2011, 01:10 PM
Orton was benched because his little rib boo-boo gave the coaching staff a reason. Also, his 3-10 record coupled with back to back games that were the worst by a Bronco QB in recent memory meant he deserved to lose his job.

BigSarge87
01-04-2011, 01:15 PM
Well we'll agree to disagree I guess.




I do want to know when Orton showed a ton of leadership though? Was it when he was sulking after Tebow got the nod? Was it when he gave up on drives on third down by falling to the fetal position with no one touching him? Was it the way he rallied the troops? Was it his never say die attitude? How about the way he came through in the clutch?

Sorry, but Kyle Orton is as devoid of leadership skills as any regular starting QB I have ever witnessed for the Denver Broncos. The difference in the fire of this team under Studesville/Tebow combo vs. McD/Orton combo is unmeasurable. I don't know how much is the HC change but I do know there was a huge difference.

Orton is not a leader and his actions and words as of late have proven that.

I think the players who have played with him all year would argue that. Not one of them has turned on Orton which always happens when a QB gives up. McDaniels is the one who lacked leadership, not Orton.

All the BS you're saying about Orton in this post is total garbage. He's not John Elway, but he definately deserves more respect than that. It's on the common knowledge website that poor play by the QB was not the reason we lost 12 games this year.

If we would have had better play calling and and a defense that plays more than 2 downs a series then Orton could have been a probowler this year (at least a valid candidate) and no one would have questioned him.

BigSarge87
01-04-2011, 01:16 PM
I disagree it was us fans that caused him to be benched. In 13 games with Orton as the starter we were 3-10.

Which is all the QB's fault? :confused:

Juriga72
01-04-2011, 01:22 PM
Which is all the QB's fault? :confused:

How come the NFL only counts "wins by a quarterback" then? Lets look at "4th quarter comeback wins".... BY a qb.

Please show me ONE stats where Warren Sapp has "The most wins by a Defensive Lineman"....

Sorry... but in the big boy world of the NFL quarterbacks have a won loss record. You cannot use Kyle's 29-19 record to start this year as a indication "he just wins"....

Cutler with as bad a defense (giving up 28 pts/game) went 8-8 somehow..... WITH a running back whgo was selling cell phones when the season started...

BigSarge87
01-04-2011, 01:23 PM
I don't see how saying Orton isn't worth a second round pick is flaming him. .

Your putting words in my mouth. I didn't say that was flaming him, I said a lot of people are flaming him regardless of his value. And they are.


I think a lot of teams would see him as solid starter who wont win you many games nor lose you many because he's pretty careful with ball. In other words if he doesn't have a lot help he can't carry a team because he's not a player maker. Just this year alone we've had five winnable games while he was the starting quarterback but we didn't win any of them. Four those games we had the ball for the last meaningful possession and the other game stayed within one possession of taking the lead entire game.

While I think he could have played better in those situations to get us a win, I don't think it's fair to place the blame for all those close losses on him alone. Had the defense held at all in any of those situations we would have also won.

TXBRONC
01-04-2011, 01:24 PM
Which is all the QB's fault? :confused:

I'm pretty sure I did say that. However, I did say in another post that we had five games that were winnable four were lost with us having the last meaningful possession and the other our we turned punted on our last meaning full possession and other team basically ran out the clock.

chazoe60
01-04-2011, 01:26 PM
I think the players who have played with him all year would argue that. Not one of them has turned on Orton which always happens when a QB gives up. McDaniels is the one who lacked leadership, not Orton.

All the BS you're saying about Orton in this post is total garbage. He's not John Elway, but he definately deserves more respect than that. It's on the common knowledge website that poor play by the QB was not the reason we lost 12 games this year.

If we would have had better play calling and and a defense that plays more than 2 downs a series then Orton could have been a probowler this year (at least a valid candidate) and no one would have questioned him.


Getting a little riled up there are ya' lil' fella.

So, the same group of guys who you said "have no leadership" think Kyle's a great guy. So what. If you haven't noticed the difference in enthusiasm and fire in this team with Orton and with Tebow, that's your problem not mine.

Poor play by the QB sure as Hell was, now follow along close okay, PART of the reason for us losing 12 games this season. But go ahead and be the next in a long line of Orton apologists. Let's blame this dumpster fire on everyone except poor little Orton. We know he curls into the fetal position in the face of defensive linemen, I guess his fans think he'll do the same when facing a little criticism.

BroncoStud
01-04-2011, 01:29 PM
I still don't understand why a 2nd is too high for him. I know its the cool thing on the forums right now to flame Orton but for most of the season the majority of people here wanted to lick his cup clean after games. (Yeah, soak that image in for a bit, LOL)

It's not like McDaniels system was so different from anyone elses that he couldn't be a successful game manager on a team with a decent defense (49ers?) Not every team is going to land Andrew Luck. Orton is good enough to be a starter on many teams that need a QB and those teams are going to be far more optimistic about him than we are right now. I would think a starting QB with the experience Orton has is worth at least a 2nd or high 3rd this year and a 3rd next year.

Chicago Bears: With Orton as starter no playoff appearances, horrible on 3rd down despite good running games, and a coach about to be fired.

Chicago Bears: With Grossman as starter, Super Bowl appearance.

Chicago Bears: With Jay Cutler, playoffs and divsion winner. Coach in talks for extension.

Denver Broncos: With Jay Cutler, 8-8 despite the worst defense in the NFL. Ranked 2nd in 3rd down conversions.

Denver Broncos: With Kyle Orton, 11-19, bottom of the NFL in 3rd down conversions.

Denver Broncos: With Tim Tebow, competitive against the Raiders, beat the high-scoring Texans, and nearly upset the Chargers who embarrassed Kyle Orton on national television.


There might have been some misguided Denver fans lining up to like the cup clean from Orton but to borrow from Denny Green "He is who I thought he was, he is who I thought he was, if you want to crown his ass an NFL starter then do it, but he is who I thought he was and he needs to go"...

Orton doesn't want to mentor the young guys, fine, send his ass packing. He was very well compensated for his time here, he won 11 games in 2 seasons, he led an offense that was HORRIBLE on conversion downs, he choked in pressure situations, and his attitude has been anything but team-friendly this season.

I'm not sure why there is a lovefest for such an average QB but so be it, let it be on another roster. It will be a year or less until those fans are booing his offense just like the Bears and Broncos fans did. Tebow is already 10X the QB Orton has ever been, and he's a rookie with 3 starts. :salute:

Juriga72
01-04-2011, 01:31 PM
Why is it that Orton on two separate occasion has curled up into his fetal ball position and pouted when he got replaced as starter....... YET Cutler correctly reads Mcdummy and he's POUNDED as a "Spoiled little kid"....

As for those who claim Orton's "History does not show this" go look at his behavior before the 2006 season......Its VERY much like this years end.

TXBRONC
01-04-2011, 01:32 PM
Your putting words in my mouth. I didn't say that was flaming him, I said a lot of people are flaming him regardless of his value. And they are.



While I think he could have played better in those situations to get us a win, I don't think it's fair to place the blame for all those close losses on him alone. Had the defense held at all in any of those situations we would have also won.

I'm sorry it came off as me putting words in your mouth.

I would put at least three and half of those loses at Orton's feet. Two were ended by interceptions (Jacksonville, and San Francisco), one by turnover on downs (St. Louis) and the half loss (K.C.). The fifth game was lost because of an errant snap. Obviously at least to me that since we had a chance to win at the end the defense had to of held.

BroncoStud
01-04-2011, 01:36 PM
Why is it that Orton on two separate occasion has curled up into his fetal ball position and pouted when he got replaced as starter....... YET Cutler correctly reads Mcdummy and he's POUNDED as a "Spoiled little kid"....

As for those who claim Orton's "History does not show this" go look at his behavior before the 2006 season......Its VERY much like this years end.

What makes the situation so annoying to me is that there are people who are mad at Cutler and appreciative of Orton.

Kyle Orton should NEVER have been a Denver Bronco. We had Cutler on our roster, he was our QBoTF. He was the Denver franchise player. McDaniels came in and tried to trade him! We got stuck with Orton as a result.

This franchise owes nothing to Orton, if anything he's a reminder of what could have been with Jay Cutler to me. Jay is leading his team into the playoffs as a divsion winner and Orton is poutin on our sideline because he isn't good enough to hold off a rookie QB who was supposed to be a long-term project.

Orton is just another MAJOR mistake McDaniels made that needs to be corrected.

TXBRONC
01-04-2011, 01:40 PM
Guys lets try to keep it civil.

Juriga72
01-04-2011, 01:42 PM
Guys lets try to keep it civil.

He started it......

"Mom always liked me better!!!!"

BigSarge87
01-04-2011, 01:43 PM
Okay, before I get completely labeled as an "Orton apologist" please let me be clear (again) that I am absolutley excited about Tebow and in no way do i wish Orton was still our guy. Now put your pitchforks and torches away for a minute and listen to what I'm trying to say.

The only point I was originally trying to make is that I think the criticism he is receiving is far more than what he deserves. I think he is talented enough to get a 2nd round pick for him. Period.

I don't think he's a great quarterback. He's not my hero. I just think everyone is getting unbelievably carried away and taking the frustration of the entire season out on him when there is a far more worthy candidate. I think Orton gave it everything he's got while he's been here and while it's still not enough, he deserves a little more respect than he's getting.

BigSarge87
01-04-2011, 01:45 PM
What makes the situation so annoying to me is that there are people who are mad at Cutler and appreciative of Orton.

Kyle Orton should NEVER have been a Denver Bronco. We had Cutler on our roster, he was our QBoTF. He was the Denver franchise player. McDaniels came in and tried to trade him! We got stuck with Orton as a result.

This franchise owes nothing to Orton, if anything he's a reminder of what could have been with Jay Cutler to me. Jay is leading his team into the playoffs as a divsion winner and Orton is poutin on our sideline because he isn't good enough to hold off a rookie QB who was supposed to be a long-term project.

Orton is just another MAJOR mistake McDaniels made that needs to be corrected.

For the love of God please don't bring that back up. I'm with you, but please stay on topic.

TXBRONC
01-04-2011, 01:47 PM
He started it......

"Mom always liked me better!!!!"

Only because you were a suck up. :lol:

BigSarge87
01-04-2011, 01:47 PM
He started it......

"Mom always liked me better!!!!"

I'm not upset, just enjoying a good debate, although I feel like I'm on an island a bit here. LOL

vandammage13
01-04-2011, 01:48 PM
...The only point I was originally trying to make is that I think the criticism he is receiving is far more than what he deserves. I think he is talented enough to get a 2nd round pick for him. Period.

This is where I slightly disagree.....I don't believe Orton is talented enough to warrant a 2nd rounder, but there probably will be some organiztion out there dumb enough and desperate enough to give up a 2nd rounder for him.

BigSarge87
01-04-2011, 01:51 PM
This is where I slightly disagree.....I don't believe Orton is talented enough to warrant a 2nd rounder, but there probably will be some organiztion out there dumb enough and desperate enough to give up a 2nd rounder for him.

Let's hope so. Just from looking at various player rankings, there is a TON of defensive talent in the draft this year. Time to mop it up.

chazoe60
01-04-2011, 02:15 PM
Okay, before I get completely labeled as an "Orton apologist" please let me be clear (again) that I am absolutley excited about Tebow and in no way do i wish Orton was still our guy. Now put your pitchforks and torches away for a minute and listen to what I'm trying to say.

The only point I was originally trying to make is that I think the criticism he is receiving is far more than what he deserves. I think he is talented enough to get a 2nd round pick for him. Period.

I don't think he's a great quarterback. He's not my hero. I just think everyone is getting unbelievably carried away and taking the frustration of the entire season out on him when there is a far more worthy candidate. I think Orton gave it everything he's got while he's been here and while it's still not enough, he deserves a little more respect than he's getting.

I can respect that. But I disagree with the sentiment that Orton gave it his all. I see this all the time and I personally disagree.

I didn't like Orton being our starting QB from day one, but I gave him time because every player deserves that. Well, by the SF game this season I could not hold my tongue any longer. That game convinced me that Orton has a defeatist attitude and does not give it his all.

A player giving it his all does not fall to the fetal position on third down without even being touched. A player giving it all does not dive two yards short of the first down, again on third down, just because he may get touched.

Then when we go down by a score, what does Orton do? Instead of manning up and taking this team on his shoulders and doing what great QBs do(all his fans had been touting his greatness all season at that point) and marching down and making a game of it. Orton holds the ball like a loaf of bread and in typical Orton under pressure style, he fumbles.

I lost all respect for Orton as our starting QB in that game. People may disagree with me but in my opinion Orton did not give it his all, and if he did, then that's just sad.

BigSarge87
01-04-2011, 02:29 PM
I can respect that. But I disagree with the sentiment that Orton gave it his all. I see this all the time and I personally disagree.

I didn't like Orton being our starting QB from day one, but I gave him time because every player deserves that. Well, by the SF game this season I could not hold my tongue any longer. That game convinced me that Orton has a defeatist attitude and does not give it his all.

A player giving it his all does not fall to the fetal position on third down without even being touched. A player giving it all does not dive two yards short of the first down, again on third down, just because he may get touched.

Then when we go down by a score, what does Orton do? Instead of manning up and taking this team on his shoulders and doing what great QBs do(all his fans had been touting his greatness all season at that point) and marching down and making a game of it. Orton holds the ball like a loaf of bread and in typical Orton under pressure style, he fumbles.

I lost all respect for Orton as our starting QB in that game. People may disagree with me but in my opinion Orton did not give it his all, and if he did, then that's just sad.

Not trying to get back into it with you but will just offer my feedback on your point of view.

I understand your frustration with him and yes, he failed in those situations. He's not a franchise quarterback. He's not a playmaker like Elway, Cutler, or even Plummer could be at times. He's a game manager. He's a good QB for a team that has a stout defense and a solid running game. He's not that kind of QB that you can put the whole game on his shoulders and he'll come through. If he was, we wouldn't be trading him right now.

However, if we had those things (a stout defense and a solid run game) we wouldn't be trading him either. There are several teams out there that fit this mold, i.e. Minnesota and SF. In my opinion, he would be worth a second to teams like those who just need a quarterback that can manage a game and make a great throw once in a while. Which, Orton has proven he can do over and over.

SpringsBroncoFan
01-04-2011, 04:51 PM
I don't think so...Miami has been burned way too many times on retread QBs since Marino left. Henne's not the guy either, but I think they'll probably try to get Mallet or Gabbert in the first round. Miami hasn't invested a first rounder in a QB since Marino left, and it hasn't worked out well for them. This will be the year they roll the dice on a QB in the draft, and they'll probably stick with Henne 1 more year while the new guy gets ready.

Lol, dream on... Gabbert will be long gone by the time the fish pick at 15. He & Luck are the only two projected first rounders You've got 6 or 7 teams ahead that would like a QB. One of Locker or Mallet are probably gone too... Cross your fingers for the other! :)

SpringsBroncoFan
01-04-2011, 05:23 PM
Let's hope so. Just from looking at various player rankings, there is a TON of defensive talent in the draft this year. Time to mop it up.

In his latest NFL QB rankings, John Clayton stated that he believes there will be more than one team to offer the Broncos a 2nd for Orton. So hopefully, he's right...

TXBRONC
01-04-2011, 05:28 PM
Not trying to get back into it with you but will just offer my feedback on your point of view.

I understand your frustration with him and yes, he failed in those situations. He's not a franchise quarterback. He's not a playmaker like Elway, Cutler, or even Plummer could be at times. He's a game manager. He's a good QB for a team that has a stout defense and a solid running game. He's not that kind of QB that you can put the whole game on his shoulders and he'll come through. If he was, we wouldn't be trading him right now.

However, if we had those things (a stout defense and a solid run game) we wouldn't be trading him either. There are several teams out there that fit this mold, i.e. Minnesota and SF. In my opinion, he would be worth a second to teams like those who just need a quarterback that can manage a game and make a great throw once in a while. Which, Orton has proven he can do over and over.

Sarge while overall performance of the defense was terrible there several games that we had a chance to win at very end. It doesn't mater if you got a struggling defense and running game. In everyone games I've mentioned we if scored we would have more than likely won because there was enough time score with out leaving much or any time on the clock so our opponent also. If Orton can make a great throw once in while, how is it possible for him to prove it over and over?

BigSarge87
01-04-2011, 05:31 PM
Yeah, hopefully he is right this time. And hopefully he finds a jaw donor this year.

BigSarge87
01-04-2011, 05:42 PM
Sarge while overall performance of the defense was terrible there several games that we had a chance to win at very end. It doesn't mater if you got a struggling defense and running game. In everyone games I've mentioned we if scored we would have more than likely won because there was enough time score with out leaving much or any time on the clock so our opponent also. If Orton can make a great throw once in while, how is it possible for him to prove it over and over?

He has made great throws over and over, just not too often when we needed him to to win the game. I agree with you, he didn't get it done when the game was on the line. I'm just saying it shouldn't have come down to him having to win it for us so often. If the defense wouldn't have been so horrible or the playcalling, special teams, etc. we wouldn't have needed to win it at the very end. Why not win a game in the first 3 quarters with solid football instead of expecting your quarterback to pull an Elway every game?

Your right, when I read that over, it sounds a little confusing. I just meant he's capable of making great throws and has proven over and over that he can manage a game well.

BigSarge87
01-04-2011, 05:47 PM
TXBRONC, I don't know how you can say that it doesn't matter if the defense and run game was struggling if the game was close, Orton should have won it at the end.

Wouldn't that suggest that Orton was a big part of the reason we were even in it at the end? I don't think that's fair to expect any quarterback to win games by himself.

vandammage13
01-04-2011, 05:48 PM
Sarge while overall performance of the defense was terrible there several games that we had a chance to win at very end. It doesn't mater if you got a struggling defense and running game. In everyone games I've mentioned we if scored we would have more than likely won because there was enough time score with out leaving much or any time on the clock so our opponent also. If Orton can make a great throw once in while, how is it possible for him to prove it over and over?

Exactly....I don't remember a game where Orton led the offense to a lead near the end of a game and then the opponent drove down for a game winning score on our D. But there were plenty of times where Orton had the ball near the end of the game with a chance to win and failed to lead the offense into the endzone.

BroncoStud
01-04-2011, 05:49 PM
Okay, before I get completely labeled as an "Orton apologist" please let me be clear (again) that I am absolutley excited about Tebow and in no way do i wish Orton was still our guy. Now put your pitchforks and torches away for a minute and listen to what I'm trying to say.

The only point I was originally trying to make is that I think the criticism he is receiving is far more than what he deserves. I think he is talented enough to get a 2nd round pick for him. Period.

I don't think he's a great quarterback. He's not my hero. I just think everyone is getting unbelievably carried away and taking the frustration of the entire season out on him when there is a far more worthy candidate. I think Orton gave it everything he's got while he's been here and while it's still not enough, he deserves a little more respect than he's getting.

I don't agree that Orton gave it his all. He still looks out of shape to me, still can't move around like a fit QB should, it looks a lot to me that he gives up when the going gets tough and he is every bit as sulky as Jay ever was. Why is Orton not in the weightroom trying to get stronger, faster, more agile, bigger to stay healthy? He hasn't done enough to overcome his physical deficencies IMO.

The worst part to me was watching him get sacked SO easily. It was like he's afraid on contact, some of the self-induced sacks are just sickening.

He doesn't deserve our unwitting respect, we already had a QB who played his ass off every snap and had skill than Orton could dream of having, and he was replaced by Kyle. I just think Kyle deserves a trade so he can be another team's QB controversy.

BigSarge87
01-04-2011, 06:02 PM
I don't agree that Orton gave it his all. He still looks out of shape to me, still can't move around like a fit QB should,

Orton could be built like T.O. and his face would still make him look out of shape. It's not his fault he's ugly.


and he is every bit as sulky as Jay ever was.

That's a ridiculous exaggeration and you know it.


The worst part to me was watching him get sacked SO easily. It was like he's afraid on contact, some of the self-induced sacks are just sickening.

That reminds me of the movie replacements when the Sumo Lineman says to the veteran QB "Maybe you should scramble" instead of protecting him better. LOL


He doesn't deserve our unwitting respect, we already had a QB who played his ass off every snap and had skill than Orton could dream of having, and he was replaced by Kyle. I just think Kyle deserves a trade so he can be another team's QB controversy.

I don't know how respecting Kyle has anything to do with him replacing Cutler. I agree he doesn't have half the talent of Cutler and I hope he does get traded to another team to be their problem.

I think your mistaking my stance as wanting to keep Orton. Not at all.

I just hope we get a second rounder for him and I think it's possible.

BroncoStud
01-04-2011, 06:08 PM
Orton could be built like T.O. and his face would still make him look out of shape. It's not his fault he's ugly.



That's a ridiculous exaggeration and you know it.



That reminds me of the movie replacements when the Sumo Lineman says to the veteran QB "Maybe you should scramble" instead of protecting him better. LOL



I don't know how respecting Kyle has anything to do with him replacing Cutler. I agree he doesn't have half the talent of Cutler and I hope he does get traded to another team to be their problem.

I think your mistaking my stance as wanting to keep Orton. Not at all.

I just hope we get a second rounder for him and I think it's possible.

Oh no, I'm not aiming any of this at you in particular, I think you're pretty close on your stance here. I don't think any of us should "disrespect" Kyle for a personal reason, but his play on the field left a LOT to be desired for some of us.

The way he folded under pressure, going down 2 yards short of 1st downs on 3rd down "scrambles", taking the fetal position when a defender is close, giving up when the game was down by more than 7, acting sulky when Tebow was getting some PT, basically taking a really good offense in 2008 and running it into the ground... - those are the things I hold against Orton.

I still don't understand why Jay got so much criticism for leaving yet Orton gets so little for his time here. There is ZERO doubt in my mind that Tebow is already a better QB than Orton, if we can get a 2nd rounder for Kyle, that would be GREAT! I hope you're right. :salute:

BroncoStud
01-04-2011, 06:10 PM
I can respect that. But I disagree with the sentiment that Orton gave it his all. I see this all the time and I personally disagree.

I didn't like Orton being our starting QB from day one, but I gave him time because every player deserves that. Well, by the SF game this season I could not hold my tongue any longer. That game convinced me that Orton has a defeatist attitude and does not give it his all.

A player giving it his all does not fall to the fetal position on third down without even being touched. A player giving it all does not dive two yards short of the first down, again on third down, just because he may get touched.

Then when we go down by a score, what does Orton do? Instead of manning up and taking this team on his shoulders and doing what great QBs do(all his fans had been touting his greatness all season at that point) and marching down and making a game of it. Orton holds the ball like a loaf of bread and in typical Orton under pressure style, he fumbles.

I lost all respect for Orton as our starting QB in that game. People may disagree with me but in my opinion Orton did not give it his all, and if he did, then that's just sad.

EXACTLY! I wanted him gone right after the San Francisco game, he was just pitiful to watch. I was done at that point and it was no longer amusing watching him take the field, it was just disgusting.

BigSarge87
01-04-2011, 06:18 PM
EXACTLY! I wanted him gone right after the San Francisco game, he was just pitiful to watch. I was done at that point and it was no longer amusing watching him take the field, it was just disgusting.

Your right, he didn't play well in the last part of the season, but if your going to place blame there are a lot of other people in the organization that deserve their fare share than just Orton.

TXBRONC
01-05-2011, 09:02 AM
He has made great throws over and over, just not too often when we needed him to to win the game. I agree with you, he didn't get it done when the game was on the line. I'm just saying it shouldn't have come down to him having to win it for us so often. If the defense wouldn't have been so horrible or the playcalling, special teams, etc. we wouldn't have needed to win it at the very end. Why not win a game in the first 3 quarters with solid football instead of expecting your quarterback to pull an Elway every game?

Your right, when I read that over, it sounds a little confusing. I just meant he's capable of making great throws and has proven over and over that he can manage a game well.

Fair enough Sarge. :salute:

TXBRONC
01-05-2011, 09:31 AM
TXBRONC, I don't know how you can say that it doesn't matter if the defense and run game was struggling if the game was close, Orton should have won it at the end.

Wouldn't that suggest that Orton was a big part of the reason we were even in it at the end? I don't think that's fair to expect any quarterback to win games by himself.

No that's what I said or at the very least that's not what I meant. In particular situation the games we were in it until the end our defense played well. At point that if defense has played well for you win game at the end then ranking is meangingless. In our particular case all of games that we lost at very end we were with in one score of either tying or getting the lead. I could break it down further but I'll leave there.

BroncoStud
01-05-2011, 12:33 PM
Your right, he didn't play well in the last part of the season, but if your going to place blame there are a lot of other people in the organization that deserve their fare share than just Orton.

Plenty of blame to go around but I blame Ellis/Bowlen/Xanders for allowing Josh McDaniels to trade Cutler and get Orton. Like I said, if it wasn't for Josh being a dumb little douche and trying to immediately trade our franchise QB when he got hired we wouldn't be sitting here discussing Kyle Orton, the Bears fans would still be bashing him and his weak play on their message boards while hoping they got a real QB...

Plenty of blame to share but Orton should never have been a Bronco and this organization owes him nothing. He got to start for a storied franchise for 2 seasons, was given plenty of opportunity, more than he deserved, and failed.

He was a mistake that is't time to fix.

TXBRONC
01-05-2011, 12:38 PM
Plenty of blame to go around but I blame Ellis/Bowlen/Xanders for allowing Josh McDaniels to trade Cutler and get Orton. Like I said, if it wasn't for Josh being a dumb little douche and trying to immediately trade our franchise QB when he got hired we wouldn't be sitting here discussing Kyle Orton, the Bears fans would still be bashing him and his weak play on their message boards while hoping they got a real QB...

Plenty of blame to share but Orton should never have been a Bronco and this organization owes him nothing. He got to start for a storied franchise for 2 seasons, was given plenty of opportunity, more than he deserved, and failed.

He was a mistake that is't time to fix.

The only people that could have stopped McDaniels from trading Cutler was Bowlen and Ellis. Xanders did have the stroke to stop him. If I'm not mistaken Xanders said there were several personnel moves that McDaniels made without even consulting him.