29.4 PPG allowed. 29.4 Freakin' PPG

[Dreadnought]

Ladies and gents, the 29.4 points per game allowed by our 2010 Broncos tied for 16th worst in the entire History of the NFL. We are down there tied with craptacular horrorshows like the winless 1976 Buccaneers. The 2008 Bronco defense outperformed this one by a pretty hefty margin. :tsk:

Read 'em and weep

http://mcubed.net/nfl/ptmpapg.shtml

We need to forget this Andrew Luck talk right now. Immediately. Every draft pick we make needs to be on the defensive side of the ball. If we get a shot at Luck the pick needs to be traded. No exceptions.

This performance last year was ridiculous...but then, we knew that already, right?

[TXBRONC]

Ladies and gents, the 29.4 points per game allowed by our 2010 Broncos tied for 16th worst in the entire History of the NFL. We are down there tied with craptacular horrorshows like the winless 1976 Buccaneers. The 2008 Bronco defense outperformed this one by a pretty hefty margin. :tsk:

Read 'em and weep

http://mcubed.net/nfl/ptmpapg.shtml

We need to forget this Andrew Luck talk right now. Immediately. Every draft pick we make needs to be on the defensive side of the ball. If we get a shot at Luck the pick needs to be traded. No exceptions.

This performance last year was ridiculous...but then, we knew that already, right?

This what happens when you:

1.) When your head coach and solid defensive coordinator with one year left on his contract "mutually" agree to part ways.


2.) When you know as new head coach the defense needs to be fixed and all you do is take the same approach as your predecessor with only difference being you switched from a 4-3 to a 3-4 defensive scheme.

and

3.) Instead of drafting defensive talent you go heavy on offense. :tsk:

[Dreadnought]

This what happens when you:

1.) When your head coach and solid defensive coordinator with one year left on his contract "mutually" agree to part ways.


2.) When you know as new head coach the defense needs to be fixed and all you do is take the same approach as your predecessor with only difference being you switched from a 4-3 to a 3-4 defensive scheme.

and

3.) Instead of drafting defensive talent you go heavy on offense.

Looks like Slowick > Wink. Andf I didn't think Slowick was better than anybody :lol: We fielded the worst Broncos defense in our history; they topped even those chump teams of the mid 60's.

Seriously, this ought to be taken as a sign we have almost no keepers on our defense at this time. We'll be forced to keep a few of these stiffs, but not because we should - and yes, this includes perpetually overrated DJ Williams.

[Traveler]

Ladies and gents, the 29.4 points per game allowed by our 2010 Broncos tied for 16th worst in the entire History of the NFL. We are down there tied with craptacular horrorshows like the winless 1976 Buccaneers. The 2008 Bronco defense outperformed this one by a pretty hefty margin. :tsk:

Read 'em and weep

http://mcubed.net/nfl/ptmpapg.shtml

We need to forget this Andrew Luck talk right now. Immediately. Every draft pick we make needs to be on the defensive side of the ball. If we get a shot at Luck the pick needs to be traded. No exceptions.

This performance last year was ridiculous...but then, we knew that already, right?

I was noticing that last night when reviewing the scores from this season.

Here's how bad it was offensively & defensively:

Offensively, we scored 20 or points 8 times, with 4 of the 8 being losses.

Defensively, we gave up 24 or more points 13 times, 30 or more 7 times, 35 or more 5 times, 40 points 2 times, and 50 or more once.

If the defense isn't addressed heavily in both FA and the draft, that's negligence on an unprecedented scale.

[TXBRONC]

Looks like Slowick > Wink. Andf I didn't think Slowick was better than anybody :lol: We fielded the worst Broncos defense in our history; they topped even those chump teams of the mid 60's.

Seriously, this ought to be taken as a sign we have almost no keepers on our defense at this time. We'll be forced to keep a few of these stiffs, but not because we should - and yes, this includes perpetually overrated DJ Williams.

I still don't like to put that much blame on Martindale because all McDaniels did for him was provide him decent talent along the defensive line and his (McDaniels) incessant need to micro mange every aspect of the team.

[Dreadnought]

I still don't like to put that much blame on Martindale because all McDaniels did for him was provide him decent talent along the defensive line and his (McDaniels) incessant need to micro mange every aspect of the team.

When you suck as badly as our 2010 defense did its because of lots of failure at lots of levels, TX. A whole bunch of guys have to be terrible at their jobs in unison to be as bad as we were. I'm disinclined to give anyone a pass.

[Tned]

Defensively, we gave up 24 or more points 13 times, 30 or more 7 times, 35 or more 5 times, 40 points 2 times, and 50 or more once.


As bad as the 29.4 PPG is, and it is, I cringed when reading this breakdown.

[TXBRONC]

When you suck as badly as our 2010 defense did its because of lots of failure at lots of levels, TX. A whole bunch of guys have to be terrible at their jobs in unison to be as bad as we were. I'm disinclined to give anyone a pass.

I don't disagree with you that Martindale shares in the blame but the lion share in my mind goes to McDaniels. We lost our best pass rusher to the I.R. and on top of that McDaniels went out and made the front three older and even less talented that they were the year before.

I would bet Tned's poodle and his golf clubs that Martindale wont be here after the new head coach is hired. :D

[red98]

Looks like Slowick > Wink. Andf I didn't think Slowick was better than anybody :lol: We fielded the worst Broncos defense in our history; they topped even those chump teams of the mid 60's.

Seriously, this ought to be taken as a sign we have almost no keepers on our defense at this time. We'll be forced to keep a few of these stiffs, but not because we should - and yes, this includes perpetually overrated DJ Williams.

I think DJ gets traded. I won't miss him.

[jhildebrand]

This team scored 28 points at home and lost.

As a matter of fact if this team scored 28 points every single game, they would still be 8-8. :eek: That's why, imho, the qb position should be the least of this team's worries right now.

[BroncoJoe]

:shudders:

[dogfish]

other'n that mrs. lincoln, how'd you like the play?

[Ravage!!!]

Dread, all true. THis defense is horrible. But the truth is, this team is at the bottom in all aspects. We are completely rebuilding, and when rebuilding at #2 in the NFL, QB is the best place to start.
Is there a defensive player at#2 that is going to turn this defense around? No.
Is there a defensive player that can turn this franchise around? No.
What position makes the BIGGEST impact to ANY team? QB.

I get that we need to draft and work on the defense. But thats not going to be changed with the #2 pick. Not like a QB.

We can use the rest of the draft on defense.

A good QB keeps teams on the field, it HELPS the defense. There is a reason that the playoff teams have top QBs and get away with having weaker defenses.

[NightTrainLayne]

Is there a defensive player at#2 that is going to turn this defense around? No.
Is there a defensive player that can turn this franchise around? No.


It's this kind of thinking that has us in the hole we're in now.

There isn't one position anywhere on this team that on its own is going to turn the team around. That includes QB.

[BigDaddyBronco]

So, looking back at 2009 we were 12th in scoring defense at 20.2 pts/game and our offense was 20th at 20.4 pts/game. Keep in mind that the defense really fell off in the 2nd half of the season. This year we were a little better in offense at 21.5 pts/game or 19th in the leauge, but fell off the cliff to 29.4 pts/game or last in the NFL.

I think the main difference between the two years (other than Nolan) was in the lack of pass rush, 39 in 2009 to 23 in 2010 (losing Doom killed us), and by having time and injuries catch up to Dawkins and Champ.

It is interesting to look at the stats. The change in rushing defense makes me puke, but we were much worse in pass defense this year vs. last year. Having Goodman hurt half the year really hurt as well.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/2009.htm
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/2010.htm

[BigDaddyBronco]

Dread, all true. THis defense is horrible. But the truth is, this team is at the bottom in all aspects. We are completely rebuilding, and when rebuilding at #2 in the NFL, QB is the best place to start.
Is there a defensive player at#2 that is going to turn this defense around? No.
Is there a defensive player that can turn this franchise around? No.
What position makes the BIGGEST impact to ANY team? QB.

I get that we need to draft and work on the defense. But thats not going to be changed with the #2 pick. Not like a QB.

We can use the rest of the draft on defense.

A good QB keeps teams on the field, it HELPS the defense. There is a reason that the playoff teams have top QBs and get away with having weaker defenses.

They were 19th in scoring offense and probably would be higher if Tebow played more of the year, but 32nd in scoring defense. Last year they were 12 in scoring defense, but about the same in offense and the team was 8-8. Defense is the key to get this team back close to .500. To become a playoff team and fo some special things it wil come down to the OLine and how well Tebow develops. Ignoring the defense and getting Luck might help the scoring a little bit, but they will turn out to be another 4-12 team.

[Ravage!!!]

They were 19th in scoring offense and probably would be higher if Tebow played more of the year, but 32nd in scoring defense. Last year they were 12 in scoring defense, but about the same in offense and the team was 8-8. Defense is the key to get this team back close to .500. To become a playoff team and fo some special things it wil come down to the OLine and how well Tebow develops. Ignoring the defense and getting Luck might help the scoring a little bit, but they will turn out to be another 4-12 team.

Thats short term thinking.

QBs at the top held defenses. There is NO defensive player that can help a team that a QB can. None.

My point is that we are within one (1) draft choice of having the chance to get the best QB prospect in 25 years, and THAT player is MUCH more impactive than ANY defensive player ever will be. Looking at those stats you just gave me, proves nothing. I'm looking to the future of this franchise.

"Helping the scoring" is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about building a franchise. We are at the bottom, and when at the bottom you take the most impacting players you can, and that starts at QB. Best QB prospect in 25 years.

There isn't a defensive pick in the draft, that is worthy of the #2 pick compared to Luck worthy of the #1. No defensive player is going to turn this franchise around, AND....we can still draft defense later in draft. It's not like we are going to come in and use every pick on defense anyway.

If we don't use the #2 pick on defense, does NOT mean you are "neglecting" the defense. It means you just took the highest rated PLAYER ,since Elway, and got him on YOUR team. There is absolutely NO indication that a defensive player taken at #2, is going to turn this team around. QBs do that.

I know it seems I'm a Tebow "hater".. and I'm not. I just don't see Tebow being the passer that you NEED in this league, and I feel that the best thing for the BRONCOS is to take a chance on a guy that absolutely is. Do I truly believe we have a chance, not at all. I really don't think we have a chance. But when you are within 1 draft choice, and being at the highest pick I have EVER seen in Denver... you absolutely, 100%, consider it. When has there been a QB to come out with this kind of rating? When was the last time that Denver could even CONSIDER making a move for the #1 guy?? Then we have an opportunity with a guy like Luck (and I mean a chance because its not like we would have to give up the entire draft to move to that spot from where we are at)? You must must MUST consider making that move, becaue there is NO defensive player we could take that would EVER EVER make that kind of impact.

[BigDaddyBronco]

Thats short term thinking.

QBs at the top held defenses. There is NO defensive player that can help a team that a QB can. None.

My point is that we are within one (1) draft choice of having the chance to get the best QB prospect in 25 years, and THAT player is MUCH more impactive than ANY defensive player ever will be. Looking at those stats you just gave me, proves nothing. I'm looking to the future of this franchise.

"Helping the scoring" is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about building a franchise. We are at the bottom, and when at the bottom you take the most impacting players you can, and that starts at QB. Best QB prospect in 25 years.

There isn't a defensive pick in the draft, that is worthy of the #2 pick compared to Luck worthy of the #1. No defensive player is going to turn this franchise around, AND....we can still draft defense later in draft. It's not like we are going to come in and use every pick on defense anyway.

If we don't use the #2 pick on defense, does NOT mean you are "neglecting" the defense. It means you just took the highest rated PLAYER ,since Elway, and got him on YOUR team. There is absolutely NO indication that a defensive player taken at #2, is going to turn this team around. QBs do that.

I know it seems I'm a Tebow "hater".. and I'm not. I just don't see Tebow being the passer that you NEED in this league, and I feel that the best thing for the BRONCOS is to take a chance on a guy that absolutely is. Do I truly believe we have a chance, not at all. I really don't think we have a chance. But when you are within 1 draft choice, and being at the highest pick I have EVER seen in Denver... you absolutely, 100%, consider it. When has there been a QB to come out with this kind of rating? When was the last time that Denver could even CONSIDER making a move for the #1 guy?? Then we have an opportunity with a guy like Luck (and I mean a chance because its not like we would have to give up the entire draft to move to that spot from where we are at)? You must must MUST consider making that move, becaue there is NO defensive player we could take that would EVER EVER make that kind of impact.

So your thought is that Luck is "the one", a Manning, Brady, or maybe Brees. Drafting Luck moves this team a minimum of 1 year further from being a decent team again since we give up all the picks (at least our 1st, a 2nd, and maybe a 3rd) that could really help the defense. If he fails or gets hurt, then you have lost 3 years and probably another coaching change. Seeing what progress Tebow has made, why risk becoming the Bills for one guy who is the flavor of the month?


Let's look at it another way. If Denver had a top 10 defense (something that would take 3-4 years of good drafting and coaching) this year with the way Orton was throwing the ball, could we have made the playoffs? You can do it without a top QB.

[Ravage!!!]

So your thought is that Luck is "the one", a Manning, Brady, or maybe Brees. Drafting Luck moves this team a minimum of 1 year further from being a decent team again since we give up all the picks (at least our 1st, a 2nd, and maybe a 3rd) that could really help the defense. If he fails or gets hurt, then you have lost 3 years and probably another coaching change. Seeing what progress Tebow has made, why risk becoming the Bills for one guy who is the flavor of the month?


Let's look at it another way. If Denver had a top 10 defense (something that would take 3-4 years of good drafting and coaching) this year with the way Orton was throwing the ball, could we have made the playoffs? You can do it without a top QB.

One year away? Why do I have to be one year away to draft Luck??? :confused: Makes no sense to me. Was Detroit thinking they were one year away when they drafted Stafford? Hell, was Indy thinking they were just one year away when they drafted Manning???

To call him the "flavor of the month" isn't factual, in fact its pretty ignorant with all the information available to read on what REAL scouts are saying about this kid. They don't give out this kind of rating to the "flavore" you are trying to put him down as. It all depends on if you believe Tebow to be the passing QB you need in this league, and I don't. This "lets wait and see with Tebow" doesn't work for me, personally, because I don't think he's going to be the guy we need to compete (on a consistent basis) in the NFL. He's not a passing QB. Not a pocket passer, and this "waiting to see" is only waiting.

If you DON'T have a top QB, then building your defense to make up the difference, is MUCH harder to do. You don't make it in the NFL by trying to build a defense around a mid-level QB.

Lets look at it this way. How many teams in the playoffs are relying on mid-level QBs and top defenses as opposed to the other way around?

[MasterShake]

Let's look at it another way. If Denver had a top 10 defense (something that would take 3-4 years of good drafting and coaching) this year with the way Orton was throwing the ball, could we have made the playoffs? You can do it without a top QB.

Great points. Our last good team was lead by Jake Plummer and a decent defense. Maybe an Andrew Luck can get us over the Playoff hump once we get there, but a defense is what GETS you there. I'll take my chances with Tebow while we rebuild this god awful defense. This defense couldn't help our most potent offense back when Cutler and Marshall and Royal were firing on all cylinders. It has been our problem all along.

Even Mark Schlereth and Big Al said yesterday on the radio that there is NO ONE on the current team except Champ Bailey that would have been a starter on the mid to late 90's teams, and I have to agree.

[BigDaddyBronco]

One year away? Why do I have to be one year away to draft Luck??? :confused: Makes no sense to me. Was Detroit thinking they were one year away when they drafted Stafford? Hell, was Indy thinking they were just one year away when they drafted Manning???

To call him the "flavor of the month" isn't factual, in fact its pretty ignorant with all the information available to read on what REAL scouts are saying about this kid. They don't give out this kind of rating to the "flavore" you are trying to put him down as. It all depends on if you believe Tebow to be the passing QB you need in this league, and I don't. This "lets wait and see with Tebow" doesn't work for me, personally, because I don't think he's going to be the guy we need to compete (on a consistent basis) in the NFL. He's not a passing QB. Not a pocket passer, and this "waiting to see" is only waiting.

If you DON'T have a top QB, then building your defense to make up the difference, is MUCH harder to do. You don't make it in the NFL by trying to build a defense around a mid-level QB.

Lets look at it this way. How many teams in the playoffs are relying on mid-level QBs and top defenses as opposed to the other way around?
Both Indy and the Lions didn't have to give up a big chunk of their draft to get their guy. They were drafting 1st overall.

BTW, 9 of the 12 playoff teams had the best scoring defenses, the other 3 were the Chargers, Bucks and Rams. Only 7 of the 12 playoff teams had the top scoring QB's. Looks like you can win with a running game, a top 10 defense, and a mediocre QB.

[cardoso]

Dread, all true. THis defense is horrible. But the truth is, this team is at the bottom in all aspects. We are completely rebuilding, and when rebuilding at #2 in the NFL, QB is the best place to start.
Is there a defensive player at#2 that is going to turn this defense around? No.
Is there a defensive player that can turn this franchise around? No.
What position makes the BIGGEST impact to ANY team? QB.

I get that we need to draft and work on the defense. But thats not going to be changed with the #2 pick. Not like a QB.

We can use the rest of the draft on defense.

A good QB keeps teams on the field, it HELPS the defense. There is a reason that the playoff teams have top QBs and get away with having weaker defenses.

Thank goodness you don't work for the broncos. :coffee:

[BroncoWave]

Thank goodness you don't work for the broncos. :coffee:

Seriously. Trading up for Luck is literally the dumbest thing the Broncos could do. I can't believe there are people who seriously want us to do that.

[BigDaddyBronco]

I think Luck is probably the best QB prospect since Peyton Manning, but I still don't take him unless he falls to us at 2nd, and then I would have to listen to the offers. This team needs so many picks to rebuild the defense that you would have to listen to the offers.

[cardoso]

It's this kind of thinking that has us in the hole we're in now.

There isn't one position anywhere on this team that on its own is going to turn the team around. That includes QB.

DING! DING! DING! we have a winner. Someone that knows a little about this sport.

[cardoso]

Thats short term thinking.

QBs at the top held defenses. There is NO defensive player that can help a team that a QB can. None.

My point is that we are within one (1) draft choice of having the chance to get the best QB prospect in 25 years, and THAT player is MUCH more impactive than ANY defensive player ever will be. Looking at those stats you just gave me, proves nothing. I'm looking to the future of this franchise.

"Helping the scoring" is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about building a franchise. We are at the bottom, and when at the bottom you take the most impacting players you can, and that starts at QB. Best QB prospect in 25 years.

There isn't a defensive pick in the draft, that is worthy of the #2 pick compared to Luck worthy of the #1. No defensive player is going to turn this franchise around, AND....we can still draft defense later in draft. It's not like we are going to come in and use every pick on defense anyway.

If we don't use the #2 pick on defense, does NOT mean you are "neglecting" the defense. It means you just took the highest rated PLAYER ,since Elway, and got him on YOUR team. There is absolutely NO indication that a defensive player taken at #2, is going to turn this team around. QBs do that.

I know it seems I'm a Tebow "hater".. and I'm not. I just don't see Tebow being the passer that you NEED in this league, and I feel that the best thing for the BRONCOS is to take a chance on a guy that absolutely is. Do I truly believe we have a chance, not at all. I really don't think we have a chance. But when you are within 1 draft choice, and being at the highest pick I have EVER seen in Denver... you absolutely, 100%, consider it. When has there been a QB to come out with this kind of rating? When was the last time that Denver could even CONSIDER making a move for the #1 guy?? Then we have an opportunity with a guy like Luck (and I mean a chance because its not like we would have to give up the entire draft to move to that spot from where we are at)? You must must MUST consider making that move, becaue there is NO defensive player we could take that would EVER EVER make that kind of impact.

These are the guys that think if we had manning or brady the broncos would be a playoff team :coffee:

[BigDaddyBronco]

These are the guys that think that if we had manning or brady the broncos would be a playoff team :coffee:
While giving up 30 pts per game. :tsk:

[NightTrainLayne]

While giving up 30 pts per game. :tsk:

Yes. It makes watching the losses more fun, but it doesn't make for playoffs. See also: 2008 Denver Broncos.

[cardoso]

Seriously. Trading up for Luck is literally the dumbest thing the Broncos could do. I can't believe there are people who seriously want us to do that.

It would make the Broncos a Joke! Let me see in the last two years we've...

Traded away jay cutler for Orton
Traded Hillis for Quinn because Mcd was unsure about orton the guy he traded for
Traded 3 picks to move up and draft tebow because we still unsure about our qb's who we both gave up great players for
and now wanting to trade more picks to move up to #1 to draft yet another QB :lol::lol::lol::lol:


And people wonder why we're 4-12

I can't take anyone serious as a bronco fan that thinks we should trade up to get luck. Either they're really dumb or haven't watched many bronco games the last 3 years.

[underrated29]

I posted this the other day but we are also


6th WOST ALL TIME IN THE HISTORY OF THE NFL in yards given up, with over 6,000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



That is an AVERAGE, not a max, but an average of 375 yards per game!!!!


Muther of God.

[Elevation inc]

Dread, all true. THis defense is horrible. But the truth is, this team is at the bottom in all aspects. We are completely rebuilding, and when rebuilding at #2 in the NFL, QB is the best place to start.
Is there a defensive player at#2 that is going to turn this defense around? No.
Is there a defensive player that can turn this franchise around? No.
What position makes the BIGGEST impact to ANY team? QB.

I get that we need to draft and work on the defense. But thats not going to be changed with the #2 pick. Not like a QB.

We can use the rest of the draft on defense.

A good QB keeps teams on the field, it HELPS the defense. There is a reason that the playoff teams have top QBs and get away with having weaker defenses.


Suh just turned around the Detroit DL in 1 year as a rookie, bowers, fairley and even dareus have that elite talent as well.....

[Ravage!!!]

Both Indy and the Lions didn't have to give up a big chunk of their draft to get their guy. They were drafting 1st overall.

BTW, 9 of the 12 playoff teams had the best scoring defenses, the other 3 were the Chargers, Bucks and Rams. Only 7 of the 12 playoff teams had the top scoring QB's. Looks like you can win with a running game, a top 10 defense, and a mediocre QB.

LOOK at their QBs. Seriously. You don't see a correlation, BDB? Its not a coincidence that the top playoff teams, and the ones that compete year after year after year, have that QB.

There is not a defensive player that is worth the #2 pick that is going to change this team. Seriously. THere is not a defensive player that is a "Must have" and NO defensive player is going to impact this team like a QB would. NO defensive player would change the team like the QB would.

This kid isn't just the best coming out since Manning.... as Trent Dilfer has said (and I truly respect his opinion)... "Luck is the BEST QB I've seen. We would have to look back to the Elway/Marino draft to see this kind of talent. He does NOT have a flaw in his game."

Thats not just some off the cuff, media, hype. There is a reason that every, EVERY, scout has this kid rated that high, and its not because he's a "flavor of the month" as you put it. Its because he's that good.

Those that don't think its even possible to move to get Luck, may very well be right. I mean, I know that Luck won't get past Carolina. But the mere fact that we are just ONE pick away, a measily 3rd pick in pts as opposed to 1800 points that a 12 pick would be, the fact that Elway LOVES Luck, is from the same school, can be the one guy that can help Luck out with the hype of having the expectations..gives me that TINY TINY sliver of hope. I mean, its tiny... and to be honest, it sucks to have that kind of hope at all, cause I know no way we get him.

But, Luck woudl make a MUCH MUCH MUCH bigger impact on this team than ANY defensive player we could grab, and thats not even debatable. Really , the only debate is what defensive player to get after Luck. I know that the realism.

But what we want defensively doesn't matter anyway. I mean, no matter what we want isn't going to be a determining factor. But since we are wishing and talking and dreaming, then I 'm going to wish for what I KNOW would be the best thing for this franchise, and that would be finding a way to move up ONE spot, and getting Luck. IF we were drafting around our normal 12 spot, I wouldnt' even be talking about it. But because we have the #2, in a year that has the highest rated PLAYER in 25 years, I want him. I know he's the best thing for this team, and to me there isn't even a way that its a discussion on that. NO defensive player would help this team as much as Luck would help this TEAM.

So there you go.

[Ravage!!!]

Suh just turned around the Detroit DL in 1 year as a rookie, bowers, fairley and even dareus have that elite talent as well.....

Not true. Suh was a piece of many players. Add in that tiny guy they have on the outside in Johnson, and everyone else they've added. If you watched their team with Stafford and without Stafford, its a HUGE difference.

Suh did NOT turn that team around.

[BroncoWave]

Not true. Suh was a piece of many players. Add in that tiny guy they have on the outside in Johnson, and everyone else they've added. If you watched their team with Stafford and without Stafford, its a HUGE difference.

Suh did NOT turn that team around.

They were 4-0 in their last 4 games without Stafford. Stafford is 3-10 as a starter. Bad argument.

[Ravage!!!]

They were 4-0 in their last 4 games without Stafford. Stafford is 3-10 as a starter. Bad argument.

No its not. DO you know that Stafford wouldn't have won those games in the lineup as the team getting better? No.

Dont' throw out things that don't prove anything to prove your point :lol:

Stafford made that team better, and it wasn't even close in comparing Stafford to the other QBs.

[BigDaddyBronco]

LOOK at their QBs. Seriously. You don't see a correlation, BDB? Its not a coincidence that the top playoff teams, and the ones that compete year after year after year, have that QB.

There is not a defensive player that is worth the #2 pick that is going to change this team. Seriously. THere is not a defensive player that is a "Must have" and NO defensive player is going to impact this team like a QB would. NO defensive player would change the team like the QB would.

This kid isn't just the best coming out since Manning.... as Trent Dilfer has said (and I truly respect his opinion)... "Luck is the BEST QB I've seen. We would have to look back to the Elway/Marino draft to see this kind of talent. He does NOT have a flaw in his game."

Thats not just some off the cuff, media, hype. There is a reason that every, EVERY, scout has this kid rated that high, and its not because he's a "flavor of the month" as you put it. Its because he's that good.

Those that don't think its even possible to move to get Luck, may very well be right. I mean, I know that Luck won't get past Carolina. But the mere fact that we are just ONE pick away, a measily 3rd pick in pts as opposed to 1800 points that a 12 pick would be, the fact that Elway LOVES Luck, is from the same school, can be the one guy that can help Luck out with the hype of having the expectations..gives me that TINY TINY sliver of hope. I mean, its tiny... and to be honest, it sucks to have that kind of hope at all, cause I know no way we get him.

But, Luck woudl make a MUCH MUCH MUCH bigger impact on this team than ANY defensive player we could grab, and thats not even debatable. Really , the only debate is what defensive player to get after Luck. I know that the realism.

But what we want defensively doesn't matter anyway. I mean, no matter what we want isn't going to be a determining factor. But since we are wishing and talking and dreaming, then I 'm going to wish for what I KNOW would be the best thing for this franchise, and that would be finding a way to move up ONE spot, and getting Luck. IF we were drafting around our normal 12 spot, I wouldnt' even be talking about it. But because we have the #2, in a year that has the highest rated PLAYER in 25 years, I want him. I know he's the best thing for this team, and to me there isn't even a way that its a discussion on that. NO defensive player would help this team as much as Luck would help this TEAM.

So there you go.
It's more of a correlation that the playoff teams have a top 10 scoring defense.

Stopping the run and getting some pash rush would pay huge dividends to this team. A guy like Dareus who can play the DE in the 3-4 and get pressure on the QB with a 3 man rush as well as stop the run would be huge. If you can trade back and get him even better. Plus add in the 2nd and maybe 3rd rounder that you would have to give up to get luck and we are talking about maybe a NT, a S, a CB, maybe another good OLB. Or we could have Luck, and Powe as a back-up NT. 3 or 4 rookies on our defense plus Tebow sounds better to me than Luck and 1 rookie on our defense. If you don't spend draft picks on the D it will never get better and we will remain a sub-.500 team for a long time.

[Juriga72]

Stafford has now been hurt 4x in two years...... His shoulder MIGHT... might be done. He's had 4 different dislocations.....

Suh....damn... THAT guy changed the whole thing. Getting VandenBosch (sp) was also a huge thing to add.

BTW... Lets talk about Phonse ....LMAO

[Ravage!!!]

It's more of a correlation that the playoff teams have a top 10 scoring defense.

Stopping the run and getting some pash rush would pay huge dividends to this team. A guy like Dareus who can play the DE in the 3-4 and get pressure on the QB with a 3 man rush as well as stop the run would be huge. If you can trade back and get him even better. Plus add in the 2nd and maybe 3rd rounder that you would have to give up to get luck and we are talking about maybe a NT, a S, a CB, maybe another good OLB. Or we could have Luck, and Powe as a back-up NT. 3 or 4 rookies on our defense plus Tebow sounds better to me than Luck and 1 rookie on our defense. If you don't spend draft picks on the D it will never get better and we will remain a sub-.500 team for a long time.

Ok BDB... we are just going to disagree. Because top QBs make you contenders. But you believe your direction, and I'll believe mine. YOu certainly haven't changed anything I feel I know, and I havent' changed anything you feel you know.

I want a top QB.

[BeefStew25]

Ok BDB... we are just going to disagree. Because top QBs make you contenders. But you believe your direction, and I'll believe mine. YOu certainly haven't changed anything I feel I know, and I havent' changed anything you feel you know.

I want a top QB.

Losing 40-37 is fun to watch I guess.

[Juriga72]

Ok BDB... we are just going to disagree. Because top QBs make you contenders. But you believe your direction, and I'll believe mine. YOu certainly haven't changed anything I feel I know, and I havent' changed anything you feel you know.

I want a top QB.
2010 Detroit scoring d- 19th- 23.1 pts/game
2009- 32nd-30.9pts/game

[BeefStew25]

DET is my sleeper team next year. They competed most every single game.

(They also were awesome at covering the spread).

[Traveler]

There isn't a defensive pick in the draft, that is worthy of the #2 pick compared to Luck worthy of the #1.

Rav,

C'mon! Step away from the computer and take a deep breath! Patrick Peterson is just such a defensive player.

If Luck is drawing comparisons to Manning & Brady, Peterson is similarly drawing comparison to Champ & Deion Sanders.

[Ravage!!!]

Rav,

C'mon! Step away from the computer and take a deep breath! Patrick Peterson is just such a defensive player.

If Luck is drawing comparisons to Manning & Brady, Peterson is similarly drawing comparison to Champ & Deion Sanders.

Luck has the highest rating of any PLAYER in 25 years. The QB has the biggest impact of any position, and can dramatically change a team faster than anything else.

We've had Champ, the person you say he's being compared to, for the last how many years now? How much of an impact did that make to our team?

So I think you just help make my point.

[Nomad]

Rav,

C'mon! Step away from the computer and take a deep breath! Patrick Peterson is just such a defensive player.

If Luck is drawing comparisons to Manning & Brady, Peterson is similarly drawing comparison to Champ & Deion Sanders.

Tune in Friday night when LSU vs Texas A&M in the Cotton Bowl!! GO TIGERS!!

[Juriga72]

Just think guys.....

SOMEHOW we let the opposition score .6 pts/game more in 2008 and STILL won 4 more games........

go figure we'd need to let them score more to win more....

[Traveler]

Luck has the highest rating of any PLAYER in 25 years. The QB has the biggest impact of any position, and can dramatically change a team faster than anything else.

We've had Champ, the person you say he's being compared to, for the last how many years now? How much of an impact did that make to our team?

So I think you just help make my point.

Never said your point was invalid. I only referenced that one part of your quote to correct you when you said there isn't a defensive player in this draft that was worhty of the #2 pick as Luck was for the #1.

Relax, Relate , Release! AHHHHHHH!

[Ziggy]

Denver is getting pushed around at the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball. What happens when a team gets bullied all year long? They give up 29 points per game. The offensive line has some young talent and will be fine with an addition or 2, but the defensive line is another story altogether.

The Denver Broncos have the worst defensive line in the NFL. Until that changes, we'll be picking high every year. This team hasn't learned it's lesson in the last decade. My one hope for Elway is that he realizes just exactly where this team's weakest link is and tries to correct it. Shanahan didn't, and McD didn't.

[Ravage!!!]

Never said your point was invalid. I only referenced that one part of your quote to correct you when you said there isn't a defensive player in this draft that was worhty of the #2 pick as Luck was for the #1.

Relax, Relate , Release! AHHHHHHH!

Fair enough, but I guess I still believe that statement to be true. Especially for this team/our team.

I mean, we don't need to use the #2 pick on a CB, and I don't think any corner is worthy of the #2 overall pick, no matter how high their rating.

[BroncoWave]

No its not. DO you know that Stafford wouldn't have won those games in the lineup as the team getting better? No.

Dont' throw out things that don't prove anything to prove your point :lol:

Stafford made that team better, and it wasn't even close in comparing Stafford to the other QBs.

They were 1-2 (33.3%) with Stafford and 5-8 (38.5%) without him this season. Doesn't sound to me like he made them much better.

[NightTrainLayne]

Just think guys.....

SOMEHOW we let the opposition score .6 pts/game more in 2008 and STILL won 4 more games........

go figure we'd need to let them score more to win more....

Based on the link shown in the first post the 2008 Broncos only gave up 28 points, 1.4 points LESS per game.

[Traveler]

Fair enough, but I guess I still believe that statement to be true. Especially for this team/our team.

I mean, we don't need to use the #2 pick on a CB, and I don't think any corner is worthy of the #2 overall pick, no matter how high their rating.

Cool! I understand what you're getting at. We just happen to disagree on the teams priorities.

I will say that if we had the #1 overall pick, Luck would have to be the choice.

Thankfully, we're not forced into that choice. As you and others have duly noted, the organization has finally admitted that they've got a lot of work to do to rebuild this team.

Having the #2 choice overall should land us a blue chip caliber player to begin rebuilding this once proud franchise. Trading choices and players for Luck makes no sense IMO.

Our offensive line has been horrid for the last couple of years. We've poured more draft choices onto the offensive side of the ball for years, including 1st round draft choices on QB's in 2006 & 2010.

And you want us to do it again?

Put me sqaurely in the camp that says get more defensive players early and often. Unless Luck falls to us at #2, we need to take the best defensive player available at that spot if the value is there.

The cubbard is bare on the defensive side and now, more than ever, is time to re-stock the cabinets.

[underrated29]

yeah its pretty simple.


Combo of
dareus/fairley,cameron heyward,ras I dowling, Ian Williams

or
The difference in points scored per game of Luck over Tebow.



Yea-
Ima take Column one, with FOUR impact defensive players, bringing our points against down by a touchdown or two per game, then the chance that Luck will be able to outscore Tebow by a touchdown or two per game.



Its that simple.

[Juriga72]

Based on the link shown in the first post the 2008 Broncos only gave up 28 points, 1.4 points LESS per game.

Crap.... Thanks for the correction.... I guess "Every point does count"... or 1.4 point......

[I Eat Staples]

That's lower than I thought. It felt like we were giving up at least 30 a game.

[BroncoWave]

That's lower than I thought. It felt like we were giving up at least 30 a game.

If not for that fluke 10-6 game against KC we do easily.

[Juriga72]

If not for that fluke 10-6 game against KC we do easily.

IF we dont have that "Fluke" 59-14 game against the Raiders we give up less point than the 08 team did. Heck if we give up "Only" 30 pts...lol

in 08 we gave up 30 or more 8 times....this year only 7 times.

Battling craptastic stats here....

[BroncoWave]

IF we dont have that "Fluke" 59-14 game against the Raiders we give up less point than the 08 team did. Heck if we give up "Only" 30 pts...lol

in 08 we gave up 30 or more 8 times....this year only 7 times.

Battling craptastic stats here....

I don't consider the Raiders game as much of a fluke as the Chiefs game. If we play this season over, we probably give up 59 again to someone. I doubt we hold someone to 10.

[Ravage!!!]

Put me sqaurely in the camp that says get more defensive players early and often. Unless Luck falls to us at #2, we need to take the best defensive player available at that spot if the value is there.

The cubbard is bare on the defensive side and now, more than ever, is time to re-stock the cabinets.

But we are already at the bottom. Building a franchise means getting the absolute BEST players possible, and they don't come better prospect than Luck. Building a franchise around a QB, like Luck, is MUCH easier to do than to try and make up around other QBs. Look how fast Atlanta, NO, Indy, NE, Pitt, and SD have turned their organizations around because of top QB play, as an example.

Plus, I'm not convinced, for a moment, that we can't still build the defense with draft choices even after trading for Luck (if we did/could not that I realistically believe we will or can). There is no more a guarantee that top DL are going to make the NFL, and there doesn't come a prospect that is more likely to succeed than Luck.

I'm COMPLETELY on board with the idea that defense needs to be a priority, but just because the first pick isn't taken on the defensive side, doesn't mean its not a priority. Few players (positions) are worth top 2 money/picks.

I know Luck isn't leaving out of Carolina. I'm just saying that if I had the chance, and the opportunity to trade for Luck on a team that is as bottom as we are....I absolutely make that move and cheer up and down for the rest of the draft. I also know that Carolina feels the same way. What a year for them to finish last in the NFL. Could be the best thing to ever happen to them.

[Ravage!!!]

They were 1-2 (33.3%) with Stafford and 5-8 (38.5%) without him this season. Doesn't sound to me like he made them much better.

Yeah.. again.. you are proving to me nothing. You obviously didn't watch them play, and that's extremely apparent. Your stats aren't even an even comparison to begin with since you have such a ridiculously low number of games that Stafford was playing. Please, this is just silly.

[The Glue Factory]

Fair enough, but I guess I still believe that statement to be true. Especially for this team/our team.

I mean, we don't need to use the #2 pick on a CB, and I don't think any corner is worthy of the #2 overall pick, no matter how high their rating.

After reading all the ranting and raving about this and that I agree that having Luck is the single best help given to the Broncos. I think the problem lies in determining how much better Luck over Tebow is and whether that difference is worth giving up what it would take to get Luck.

I think Tebow is good enough to be the QB to keep Denver competitive, provided other weak areas on the team get addressed. I would much rather have someone on the team that is able to practically WILL the team to score over the best QB in the universe that sits on the sidelines and pouts after each interception. I believe Tebow has the ability to inspire the team to win in situations like Houston last week. Heck we almost won against SD on Sunday after the playbook was opened up late in the game!

Given that I'm in the keep Tebow camp and use the picks we have to build a better defense hopefully by trading down to generate more picks.

[Ravage!!!]

After reading all the ranting and raving about this and that I agree that having Luck is the single best help given to the Broncos. I think the problem lies in determining how much better Luck over Tebow is and whether that difference is worth giving up what it would take to get Luck.

I think Tebow is good enough to be the QB to keep Denver competitive, provided other weak areas on the team get addressed. I would much rather have someone on the team that is able to practically WILL the team to score over the best QB in the universe that sits on the sidelines and pouts after each interception. I believe Tebow has the ability to inspire the team to win in situations like Houston last week. Heck we almost won against SD on Sunday after the playbook was opened up late in the game!




I don't know what you are talking about as far as sitting on the sidelines and pouting. Perhaps you feel you know more than anyone else about Luck.

However. I don't think Tebow is the answer, and after watching him play, its even more obvious to me what a BIG project he is. I'm going to be wearing Tebow's jersey while rooting for him next year, because its the Broncos. But the reality is teams get better, faster, with better PASSING QBs than they do with a Tebow project.

I don't know how much it would take to move up 1 spot to get him. If it took trading away Tebow and a pick to move up one spot to get the QB like Luck, I pull that trigger in a moments notice. Its not like the moving up we've seen in the past (the ditka trade) where we trade 8 players to move. I'm just saying that if there as even a sliver of an opportunity, the Broncos should make that move. I don't think its going to happen.

But my debating for it to happen is no different than the debating on what DL we should take. None is going to make a difference, none is going to sway the decision makers, and none is going to make my wishes come true. We can debate what lineman to take for the next 4 months till we are blue n the face. The only thing my ranting and raving does, is get people upset that I feel Luck is a much (MUCH) better NFL prospect than Tebow will ever be. I can live with that.

Also.. I unfortunately dont think we will be able to move out of 2 and stockpile picks. Teams don't simply move into the #2 spot, unless there is a QB there worth that pick.

[BroncoWave]

Yeah.. again.. you are proving to me nothing. You obviously didn't watch them play, and that's extremely apparent. Your stats aren't even an even comparison to begin with since you have such a ridiculously low number of games that Stafford was playing. Please, this is just silly.

You're hurting your case even worse for the impact Stafford is having on DET. Hard for him to have any impact when he is standing on the sidelines with a sprained vagina every year. Eventually he has to show he can stay healthy.

[honz]

Ladies and gents, the 29.4 points per game allowed by our 2010 Broncos tied for 16th worst in the entire History of the NFL. We are down there tied with craptacular horrorshows like the winless 1976 Buccaneers. The 2008 Bronco defense outperformed this one by a pretty hefty margin. :tsk:

Read 'em and weep

http://mcubed.net/nfl/ptmpapg.shtml

We need to forget this Andrew Luck talk right now. Immediately. Every draft pick we make needs to be on the defensive side of the ball. If we get a shot at Luck the pick needs to be traded. No exceptions.

This performance last year was ridiculous...but then, we knew that already, right?
Cutler! Orton! Marshall! Hillis! Tebow! Luck!

[Dreadnought]

I don't know what you are talking about as far as sitting on the sidelines and pouting. Perhaps you feel you know more than anyone else about Luck.

However. I don't think Tebow is the answer, and after watching him play, its even more obvious to me what a BIG project he is. I'm going to be wearing Tebow's jersey while rooting for him next year, because its the Broncos. But the reality is teams get better, faster, with better PASSING QBs than they do with a Tebow project.

I don't know how much it would take to move up 1 spot to get him. If it took trading away Tebow and a pick to move up one spot to get the QB like Luck, I pull that trigger in a moments notice. Its not like the moving up we've seen in the past (the ditka trade) where we trade 8 players to move. I'm just saying that if there as even a sliver of an opportunity, the Broncos should make that move. I don't think its going to happen.

But my debating for it to happen is no different than the debating on what DL we should take. None is going to make a difference, none is going to sway the decision makers, and none is going to make my wishes come true. We can debate what lineman to take for the next 4 months till we are blue n the face. The only thing my ranting and raving does, is get people upset that I feel Luck is a much (MUCH) better NFL prospect than Tebow will ever be. I can live with that.

Also.. I unfortunately dont think we will be able to move out of 2 and stockpile picks. Teams don't simply move into the #2 spot, unless there is a QB there worth that pick.

Brother Ravage - its breaking my heart - you and I did noble battle together so often against the evil forces of McDaniels-ism and all. TT is our QB or the future, and he'll be just fine. Hell, I hate running QB's, and even I still think he'll do fine. Why? Because he's already a decent passer, plus he's smart, plus he has an off the charts work ethic which will correct the defects in his game still remaining. To me those add up to more than the crapshoot of drafting maybe Peyton Manning, or maybe Tim Couch.

Our defense blows. I can't put it more bluntly. I'd keep Dumerville. maybe Bailey if he's interested, probably Wes Woodyard, and ship the rest of these stooges elsewhere post-haste. They suck. Its not phrased as a question, they simply suck, and its what we have to fix.

[The Glue Factory]

I don't know what you are talking about as far as sitting on the sidelines and pouting. Perhaps you feel you know more than anyone else about Luck.

Actually the reference was to the last QB the Broncos drafted who was touted as the best thing for the Broncos since someone punk named Elway. I seem to recall the GOAT at QB having a hard first year in which he got benched at for the back up to come save the game.

Three games just isn't enough to say whether Tebow is a long term project or not. Given the late comebacks against Houston AND SD I'd say he's got a promising future in the NFL. Doesn't SD have a top 5 defense? And we nearly came back to win that? I wasn't able to watch the last two plays of the game but listening to Dave Logan call the plays sounded like some of the almost come from behind victories Elway engineered only to lose by <7. I think that the difference between Tebow and Luck won't be worth the price.

As you've pointed out there's a big difference between NCAA and NFL. Tebow has given us a few flashes that he'll be quite competent to great as an NFL QB while Luck is 100% potential. I recall a few years ago the great debate being which QB would be better between Manning & Leaf. At this point Luck is an unkown NFL quantity while Tebow is only slightly (marginally at best) less so.

[claymore]

Brother Ravage - its breaking my heart - you and I did noble battle together so often against the evil forces of McDaniels-ism and all. TT is our QB or the future, and he'll be just fine. Hell, I hate running QB's, and even I still think he'll do fine. Why? Because he's already a decent passer, plus he's smart, plus he has an off the charts work ethic which will correct the defects in his game still remaining. To me those add up to more than the crapshoot of drafting maybe Peyton Manning, or maybe Tim Couch.

Our defense blows. I can't put it more bluntly. I'd keep Dumerville. maybe Bailey if he's interested, probably Wes Woodyard, and ship the rest of these stooges elsewhere post-haste. They suck. Its not phrased as a question, they simply suck, and its what we have to fix.

Dont fall for it Dread. We cant let the ghost of McDaniels haunt us from beyond the grave with Tebow.

We cant pass on luck because Tebow is "A great guy". The dude is a gimmick. It will take a few games into next year before teams make him throw the ball. Then we are FUGGED!

[slim]

Brother Ravage - its breaking my heart - you and I did noble battle together so often against the evil forces of McDaniels-ism and all. TT is our QB or the future, and he'll be just fine. Hell, I hate running QB's, and even I still think he'll do fine. Why? Because he's already a decent passer, plus he's smart, plus he has an off the charts work ethic which will correct the defects in his game still remaining. To me those add up to more than the crapshoot of drafting maybe Peyton Manning, or maybe Tim Couch.

Our defense blows. I can't put it more bluntly. I'd keep Dumerville. maybe Bailey if he's interested, probably Wes Woodyard, and ship the rest of these stooges elsewhere post-haste. They suck. Its not phrased as a question, they simply suck, and its what we have to fix.

Tebow had a pretty rough first half trying to throw the ball against SD (it wasn't pretty). Even so, I have been impressed overall.

Early this year there were a lot of people knocking Orton because he "can't come from behind"..."doesn't play well in the 4th quarter", etc. I don't think that is going to be a problem with Tebow. He is the type of QB I want in the huddle when the game is on the line.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Although I agree 100% that D is the main focus here...I do agree that a talent like Luck, who can keep yer franchise respectable or better just by his presence alone for an entire decade, needs to be snatched if the opportunity presents itself.

I'm not saying trade up to get him, but if he did fall, he is CLEARLY the pick. We can address defense in rounds 2-infinity, including 2012 and 2013. We have a nice young OLine, a solid WR corps w/ young talent and a talented RB. He can be protected while the defense is built. It would be a no brainer IMHO.

[Dreadnought]

Dont fall for it Dread. We cant let the ghost of McDaniels haunt us from beyond the grave with Tebow.

We cant pass on luck because Tebow is "A great guy". The dude is a gimmick. It will take a few games into next year before teams make him throw the ball. Then we are FUGGED!

Fret Not, Brother Clay. I don't touch myself in the shower thinking about the glories of Tim Tebow or any of that creepy stuff. I just think he's fine, and will be fine. He has the ability to become an excellent pure passer and field leader with some extra side benefits; he's not just a Vince Young or Kordell Stewart replay.

[claymore]

Fret Not, Brother Clay. I don't touch myself in the shower thinking about the glories of Tim Tebow or any of that creepy stuff. I just think he's fine, and will be fine. He has the ability to become an excellent pure passer and field leader with some extra side benefits; he's not just a Vince Young or Kordell Stewart replay.

Id rather have Kordell Stewart than Tebow. If Young wasnt such a vagina (wuss), Id want him instead too.

[BigDaddyBronco]

Id rather have Kordell Stewart than Tebow. If Young wasnt such a vagina (wuss), Id want him instead too.
Hater.

[Dreadnought]

Hater.

He only says that because he knows TT will never ever buy him shots and lap dances at 3 AM at the Kit-Kat lounge. Same objection most sportswriters have, truth be told. Its a dream of Claymore's.

[zbeg]

Id rather have Kordell Stewart than Tebow.

!

Why on earth would you want a guy who's proven to be lazy and emotionally fragile throughout his career over Tebow at this point?

A lot of reasons have been given as to why Tebow won't be successful, but "lazy and emotionally fragile" are not among them.

[Dreadnought]

!

Why on earth would you want a guy who's proven to be lazy and emotionally fragile throughout his career over Tebow at this point?

A lot of reasons have been given as to why Tebow won't be successful, but "lazy and emotionally fragile" are not among them.

Claymore is just overwrought. Its as if McDaniels broke something, deep down in his soul. I understand

I'm taking a positive view. McDaniels refused to play Tebow. McDaniels = always wrong. Therefore, Tebow will work out just fine and show McDaniels up for the fool most everyone not named robert ethan knows now that he was.

As for Young and Stewart? Young is more emo than most 13 year old girls, and Stewart was better then pretty much nobody to play QB in the past 2 decades not named JaMarcus. Clay knows that too

[robert ethan]

I think it is MOSTLY ON STINK THE FINK. Broncos spent more money last season bringing in defensive free agents than offensive ones. By a wide margin. In two years, Josh drafted defensive players high in the draft. Ayers, Smith, McBath were all taken in the first two rounds. Bruton, Cox, and Thompson are also still around, along with Cassius Vaughan who looks like a F.A. bargain. The talent was there but fat sleazy Stink couldn't coordinate it in any fashion.

[BeefStew25]

I seriously would punch you in your vulva if I saw you in person.

[GEM]

I think it is MOSTLY ON STINK THE FINK. Broncos spent more money last season bringing in defensive free agents than offensive ones. By a wide margin. In two years, Josh drafted defensive players high in the draft. Ayers, Smith, McBath were all taken in the first two rounds. Bruton, Cox, and Thompson are also still around, along with Cassius Vaughan who looks like a F.A. bargain. The talent was there but fat sleazy Stink couldn't coordinate it in any fashion.

Ya know...the stupid nicknames don't make you look very good. You can make your point without all the stupid name calling.

That little cheating scoundrel McDouchebag completely ****** this team for the foreseeable future.

Same message, different wording:

McDaniels sure screwed the Broncos up for the foreseeable future.

Both are true, but the first just makes the poster look bad.

[BeefStew25]

Gem's lets grab some Krispy Kreme.

[GEM]

Gem's lets grab some Krispy Kreme.

Krispy Kreme....nasty shit.