Tebow/Luck debates in full force....

[Clipworthy]

If they trade up and get rid of tebow to pick luck... I'll lose all respect for the staff

We need defense WAY too bad for this to even be an option

Taking Luck would set us back yet another year in rebuilding this defense :tsk:

Let Tebow get his chance with this team :tsk:

[Ziggy]

The Tebow/Luck debate will go on until Carolina announces that they have officially signed Luck to a contract the week of the draft.

[Lancane]

The Tebow/Luck debate will go on until Carolina announces that they have officially signed Luck to a contract the week of the draft.

Unless Luck pulls an Elway-Manning move, which could happen...just saying!
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I love adding fuel to the fire with such debates....:lol:

[TimBuff10]

You guys do realize that we have 5 other picks in the draft to pick the best two DTs available?

[sneakers]

The Tebow/Luck debate will go on until Carolina announces that they have officially signed Luck to a contract the week of the draft.

There really is no debate, unless you like the Broncos picking in the top 10 every year....then go ahead and draft another player on offense with this pick.

[Elevation inc]

You guys do realize that we have 5 other picks in the draft to pick the best two DTs available?

wow do you really not get the difference in impact between the # 2 and @ #34 picks...seriously????? so we should get luck and draft 2nd rd scraps for our DL and pass on the chance for a elite player on defense......okay got it...

draft luck, ignore defense again, trade Luck in 3 years when a new coach comes in because he will wnat his guy and were still rebuilding, and were still stuck in the basement becasue our f'in defense has been ignored yet again so we can get a brand new shiny offense and toy in luck......


thanks i'll pass on that whole BS

[xzn]

Luck > Tebow in 2011
Luck < Tebow + (Nick Fairley / D'Quan Bowers / Patrick Petersen) in 2011

Tebow = Luck by 2014

/endthread

[dunk7]

Luck > Tebow in 2011
Luck < Tebow + (Nick Fairley / D'Quan Bowers / Patrick Petersen) in 2011

Tebow = Luck by 2014

/endthread

Luck > Tebow 2011
Luck + 2nd Rounder > Tebow + (Nick Fairley / D'Quan Bowers / Patrick Petersen) in 2011
Luck = Probowl by 2014
Tebow = CFL QB by 2014

[Ravage!!!]

The #2 DEFENSIVE Player will NOT change this franchise. They defensive player will NEVER have the impact that a QB would.. period. Ever. If there is even a Chance to go after Luck, you do it. We are withink ONE draft spot of taking the best QB prospect in 25 years!

There is absolutely, 100%, reason to believe that we should go after THAT player. Our team is at the bottom. You build around a QB, and that means the defnse too. Good QBs help defenses.

There are lots of picks left, and there is NO defensive player even CLOSE that deserves the #2 overall pick as much as Luck deserves the #1. Nowhere anywhere close. Luck is THAT good.

Moving to get Luck would NOT be neglecting this team or this defense. Thats false. Thats short sighted. Thats not looking 5 years down the road. Thats tunnel vision and reactionary drafting.

Teams just do NOT move up to the #2 spot, and thus expecting us to trade down and 'stockpile" picks, isn't go ing to happen.

This "give Tebow a chance" thing doesn't work. You give your team the BEST chance to succeed, and thats getting the most impact players possible, and right now its POSSIBLE for us to make a deal for the most impactive player on the field..... the QB. Not that I think its going to happen, but because we are #2, its POSSIBLE. Absolutely there is reason to consider it... absolutely.

[PAINTERDAVE]

Draft Defense

Carolina will take Andrew Leaf with their first pick.
They can trade him to whoever for whatever.
It dont make any difference to us.

That is .. IF... the redshirt Sophmore even comes out.

Same as folks want to predict he will win the Super Bowl soon..
I'l predict Andrew will win the Heisman this year.

[Nick]

The #2 DEFENSIVE Player will NOT change this franchise. They defensive player will NEVER have the impact that a QB would.. period. Ever. If there is even a Chance to go after Luck, you do it. We are withink ONE draft spot of taking the best QB prospect in 25 years!

There is absolutely, 100%, reason to believe that we should go after THAT player. Our team is at the bottom. You build around a QB, and that means the defnse too. Good QBs help defenses.

There are lots of picks left, and there is NO defensive player even CLOSE that deserves the #2 overall pick as much as Luck deserves the #1. Nowhere anywhere close. Luck is THAT good.

Moving to get Luck would NOT be neglecting this team or this defense. Thats false. Thats short sighted. Thats not looking 5 years down the road. Thats tunnel vision and reactionary drafting.

Teams just do NOT move up to the #2 spot, and thus expecting us to trade down and 'stockpile" picks, isn't go ing to happen.

This "give Tebow a chance" thing doesn't work. You give your team the BEST chance to succeed, and thats getting the most impact players possible, and right now its POSSIBLE for us to make a deal for the most impactive player on the field..... the QB. Not that I think its going to happen, but because we are #2, its POSSIBLE. Absolutely there is reason to consider it... absolutely.

Luck is that good and he will be great in NFL. Patrick Peterson, CB, LSU is going to be the next sure fire prospect. I would be surprised if the Broncos don't entertain a move to #1 spot.

John Harbaugh is by far the best Coach prospect also and showed yesterday at halftime against a good defense.

[vandammage13]

This "give Tebow a chance" thing doesn't work. You give your team the BEST chance to succeed....

This sounds eerily familiar to when the coaching staff kept saying "Orton gives us the best chance to win" :tsk:

[Ravage!!!]

This sounds eerily familiar to when the coaching staff kept saying "Orton gives us the best chance to win" :tsk:

well, you can say the same things but have different methods for accomplishing them.

McD knew that Tebow was NOT ready to take this passing offense on his shoulders, and he's not.

[camdisco24]

We should maybe use 2 picks for offense this year, and they should both be LATE.

If our front office has a brain we will focus on DEFENSE this draft. Luck (or the next Ryan Leaf) will go to the Panthers and all the Tebow doubters can get over themselves and start to focus on what this team really needs.


:defense::defense::defense:

[vandammage13]

well, you can say the same things but have different methods for accomplishing them.

McD knew that Tebow was NOT ready to take this passing offense on his shoulders, and he's not.

Tebow may not have been ready to play in McD's specific system (although that is somewhat speculative), but he was ready to play in a more conservative style like we saw in the last few weeks.

McD lived by Orton and died by Orton. It was more like "Orton gave us the best chance to run the offense that McD wanted to run", rather than "Orton gives us the best chance to win"....Had McD swallowed his pride and been willing to scale down his offense and let Tebow play earlier, I bet he would still be here. Instead, McD was too stubborn and rode Orton and his scheme all the way to the unemployment line.

The good coaches modify their schemes to fit their most talented players, not the other way around.

[Dirk]

I like Tebow a lot. But if you have the chance to get Luck, you gotta do it.

I just don't see the Broncos having a chance at Luck with Carolina needing a QB for the future. They just aren't going to pass on him.

Now like Lancane suggests...if Luck were to pull an Elway/Manning sort of deal then the Broncos HAVE to take him. It only makes sense.

[gatorpower]

Luck is that good and he will be great in NFL.

I already stated BEFORE the game that I thought Luck was a great QB and I rated him A+. Having said that, people do realize that he's only played in 12 games in college where he threw more than 25 passes, right? Tebow had 19 at UF and was considered a project at passing.

[Ravage!!!]

I already stated BEFORE the game that I thought Luck was a great QB and I rated him A+. Having said that, people do realize that he's only played in 12 games in college where he threw more than 25 passes, right? Tebow had 19 at UF and was considered a project at passing.

Exactly. Tells you just how much Tebow is a project compared to a guy like Luck.

[Cugel]

The #2 DEFENSIVE Player will NOT change this franchise. They defensive player will NEVER have the impact that a QB would.. period. Ever. If there is even a Chance to go after Luck, you do it. We are withink ONE draft spot of taking the best QB prospect in 25 years!

There is absolutely, 100%, reason to believe that we should go after THAT player. Our team is at the bottom. You build around a QB, and that means the defnse too. Good QBs help defenses.

There are lots of picks left, and there is NO defensive player even CLOSE that deserves the #2 overall pick as much as Luck deserves the #1. Nowhere anywhere close. Luck is THAT good.

Moving to get Luck would NOT be neglecting this team or this defense. Thats false. Thats short sighted. Thats not looking 5 years down the road. Thats tunnel vision and reactionary drafting.

Teams just do NOT move up to the #2 spot, and thus expecting us to trade down and 'stockpile" picks, isn't go ing to happen.

This "give Tebow a chance" thing doesn't work. You give your team the BEST chance to succeed, and thats getting the most impact players possible, and right now its POSSIBLE for us to make a deal for the most impactive player on the field..... the QB. Not that I think its going to happen, but because we are #2, its POSSIBLE. Absolutely there is reason to consider it... absolutely.

All true RAV. But, also probably all irrelevant as well. Luck will either stay in school or else be taken at #1 by Carolina.

Think about this from Carolina's perspective. What happens if they stick with Clausen, trade the #1 pick and Luck winds up being the next Peyton Manning or John Elway? They look worse than than Seattle for passing on Michael Jordan in the NBA draft! They have to live with fans criticizing them for the next 15 years while they watch Luck holding up the SB trophy!

Do you suppose Atlanta fans have EVER forgotten that they drafted Brett Favre in 1991? Or that the consummate MORON Jerry Glanville (their coach) said that "it would take a plane crash" for him to play Favre. So, the Falcons traded Favre away in 1992 and their fans have NEVER forgotten or FORGIVEN them -- as they are STILL waiting for their first championship!

You could see it in the fan reaction to getting Michael Vick in the draft ("finally the curse of the Favre trade will be lifted!") only it wasn't yet. :coffee:

That's a serious risk to take if Luck turns out to be as good as advertised. :coffee:

[Ravage!!!]

I like Tebow a lot. But if you have the chance to get Luck, you gotta do it.

I just don't see the Broncos having a chance at Luck with Carolina needing a QB for the future. They just aren't going to pass on him.

Now like Lancane suggests...if Luck were to pull an Elway/Manning sort of deal then the Broncos HAVE to take him. It only makes sense.

Luck isn't going to do that. But, Lets say Carolina is intersted in Tebow and a future pick along with trading places this year? So they get the #2, Tebwo, and a future pick?

Lots of scenarios can be made up. But as you said, Carolina isn't going ot pass on them, and they shouldn't. But.. BUT... if there were the opportunity, you absolutely take it. Snag it, and walk away proud of the move.

lets put it this way. Watching them play, Luck would be starting for the Broncos, right NOW. No doubt about it, hands down.

[arapaho2]

The #2 DEFENSIVE Player will NOT change this franchise. They defensive player will NEVER have the impact that a QB would.. period. Ever. If there is even a Chance to go after Luck, you do it. We are withink ONE draft spot of taking the best QB prospect in 25 years!

There is absolutely, 100%, reason to believe that we should go after THAT player. Our team is at the bottom. You build around a QB, and that means the defnse too. Good QBs help defenses.

There are lots of picks left, and there is NO defensive player even CLOSE that deserves the #2 overall pick as much as Luck deserves the #1. Nowhere anywhere close. Luck is THAT good.

Moving to get Luck would NOT be neglecting this team or this defense. Thats false. Thats short sighted. Thats not looking 5 years down the road. Thats tunnel vision and reactionary drafting.

Teams just do NOT move up to the #2 spot, and thus expecting us to trade down and 'stockpile" picks, isn't go ing to happen.

This "give Tebow a chance" thing doesn't work. You give your team the BEST chance to succeed, and thats getting the most impact players possible, and right now its POSSIBLE for us to make a deal for the most impactive player on the field..... the QB. Not that I think its going to happen, but because we are #2, its POSSIBLE. Absolutely there is reason to consider it... absolutely.

rav as much as i respect your views

do you honestly think carolina qb'd by jimmy clausen and matt moore would ever .....ever....ever ever ever trade out of the #1 or not draft luck if he come out

if luck is on the board....nothing....ever..will prevent them from takeing the best qb in years

so its all pointless...we need to now look for defense

[Ravage!!!]

All true RAV. But, also probably all irrelevant as well. Luck will either stay in school or else be taken at #1 by Carolina.

Think about this from Carolina's perspective. What happens if they stick with Clausen, trade the #1 pick and Luck winds up being the next Peyton Manning or John Elway? They look worse than than Seattle for passing on Michael Jordan in the NBA draft! They have to live with fans criticizing them for the next 15 years while they watch Luck holding up the SB trophy!

Do you suppose Atlanta fans have EVER forgotten that they drafted Brett Favre in 1991? Or that the consummate MORON Jerry Glanville (their coach) said that "it would take a plane crash" for him to play Favre. So, the Falcons traded Favre away in 1992 and their fans have NEVER forgotten or FORGIVEN them -- as they are STILL waiting for their first championship!

You could see it in the fan reaction to getting Michael Vick in the draft ("finally the curse of the Favre trade will be lifted!") only it wasn't yet. :coffee:

That's a serious risk to take if Luck turns out to be as good as advertised. :coffee:


yeah. I know. I TRULY know we don't have much of a chance. But.. its not like we are picking at 15 and looking up at the #1 spot. SO I think tht is why I hold this tiny (tiny) piece of hope.

But, because we are just ONE tiny pick away. Instead of being 1500 points away, we are mearly 400, which in any other draft COULD be a 3rd round pick added to just switching spots. Now I know it would take more than that to draw Luck away from Carolina.. I do. But because we are just ONE pick away, and the fact that there isn't any defensive players worth a #2 pick... and because we JUST hired Elway to help with player personnel, and because Elway Loves luck, from the same school, and has ties. Because there isn't another person on the planet that could help Luck with the hype of having that kind of rating and expectations better than Elway..... I have the TINIEST sliver of hope. Unfortunately, I have hope. :lol:

[Ravage!!!]

rav as much as i respect your views

do you honestly think carolina qb'd by jimmy clausen and matt moore would ever .....ever....ever ever ever trade out of the #1 or not draft luck if he come out

if luck is on the board....nothing....ever..will prevent them from takeing the best qb in years

so its all pointless...we need to now look for defense

No. I don't.

But realistically, what we "look at" doesn't make a difference. We can talk about defensive players till we are blue in the face. What we want, think, or wish for doesn't matter.

So as long as we are giving pure speculative wishes, anyway, then I'm going to wish for Luck (:lol:) I mean, wth. Its not like us talking about defense is going to make a difference anyway.

I just don't think that there is a defensive player that makes me all excited at #2, and don't think anyone moves up to #2 thats going to give us all these picks people are dreaming about.

[Cugel]

I already stated BEFORE the game that I thought Luck was a great QB and I rated him A+. Having said that, people do realize that he's only played in 12 games in college where he threw more than 25 passes, right? Tebow had 19 at UF and was considered a project at passing.

Tebow is considered "a project" because of his slow release and unorthodox mechanics and less than stellar accuracy and arm strength! Luck is considered the best QB prospect in years because of his quick release, good mechanics, stellar accuracy and general all around skills. The number of games is largely irrelevant.

Luck is rated as a MUCH better prospect by EVERY SINGLE NFL expert. Period. It seems that all the right-wing Christians in CO are wild about Tebow because of his SB "pro-life" ad and general conservative religious stance.

Well, that's all completely irrelevant. When it comes to the QB, I don't give a damn whether Jesus is his personal savior or he sacrifices a live-goat to Baal on Sundays if he can make the 40 yard cross-field pass under pressure, that's all that matters. :coffee:

Under THAT criteria, Luck is a VASTLY better prospect than Tebow and Denver would be crazy NOT to take him if he became available to them.

Only he won't be, so it's all academic. :coffee:

[Northman]

wow do you really not get the difference in impact between the # 2 and @ #34 picks...seriously?????

That would be a no. :lol:

[DenBronx]

If Suh was availiable this year there would be no question. Take Suh but since their isn't a defensive player of that caliber then might as well discuss all options.

Heck, what else are we supposed to do in the offseason?

[Northman]

Draft Defense

Carolina will take Andrew Leaf with their first pick.
They can trade him to whoever for whatever.
It dont make any difference to us.

That is .. IF... the redshirt Sophmore even comes out.

Same as folks want to predict he will win the Super Bowl soon..
I'l predict Andrew will win the Heisman this year.

I highfived you just for the Andrew Leaf comment. Fricking awesome. :lol:

[Northman]

I repeat, Denver will not land Luck in anyway shape or form.

1) If Carolina isnt sold on Clausen they take Luck.

2) If Denver tried to package a deal with Tebow and other items, picks, whatever they will not bite. If some fans think Tebow is a project than so does Carolina.

3) If Carolina is sold on Clausen they will package a deal with another team who has far more to offer and move down. Teams like SF, BuFF, and Jax will throw them better deals than Denver can afford.

[Ravage!!!]

If Suh was availiable this year there would be no question. Take Suh but since their isn't a defensive player of that caliber then might as well discuss all options.

Heck, what else are we supposed to do in the offseason?

If Suh and Luck were available, it woudl be a different discussion for sure. But it woudl be a very SHORT discussion because it would either be Luck, or Suh. Nothing else, no matter what. :lol:

But at least I would feel comfortable at #2 knowing we would at least get Suh. But there just isn't that kind of player this year's draft. There is no player that is worth the #2 as much as Luck is worth the #1. :beer:

[Ravage!!!]

I repeat, Denver will not land Luck in anyway shape or form.

1) If Carolina isnt sold on Clausen they take Luck.

2) If Denver tried to package a deal with Tebow and other items, picks, whatever they will not bite. If some fans think Tebow is a project than so does Carolina.

3) If Carolina is sold on Clausen they will package a deal with another team who has far more to offer and move down. Teams like SF, BuFF, and Jax will throw them better deals than Denver can afford.

agreed with everything except #3. They would have to throw their entire draft. Teams do not trade to the #1 spot, and despite teams trying to move OUT of the #1 place many times, rarely does anyone trade out of it. But, if they aren't going to take Luck (and I absolutely believe they do).... then trading and getting some picks, and still being able to pick a #2, may very well be their best option.

[TimBuff10]

So if Luck has his back-channel people tell Carolina that he will not sign a deal with them, does Carolina still draft him? The best Carolina could hope for at that point is to draft him and trade him to the highest bidder which would make Denver the next obvious place especially if Luck pushes Denver as the only team he would sign with. He can turn himself into a FA and do the same thing Melo is doing to the Nuggets to get to the Knicks.

[Ravage!!!]

So if Luck has his back-channel people tell Carolina that he will not sign a deal with them, does Carolina still draft him? The best Carolina could hope for at that point is to draft him and trade him to the highest bidder which would make Denver the next obvious place especially if Luck pushes Denver as the only team he would sign with. He can turn himself into a FA and do the same thing Melo is doing to the Nuggets to get to the Knicks.

same thing that happened with Elway and Manning. Yes, they draft him. He's not going to do that, but he couldn't really force himself to be a FA. He would be drafted by Carolina, and then would not be able to go back to college, or play with another NFL team.

[Cugel]

yeah. I know. I TRULY know we don't have much of a chance. But.. its not like we are picking at 15 and looking up at the #1 spot. SO I think tht is why I hold this tiny (tiny) piece of hope.

But, because we are just ONE tiny pick away. Instead of being 1500 points away, we are mearly 400, which in any other draft COULD be a 3rd round pick added to just switching spots. Now I know it would take more than that to draw Luck away from Carolina.. I do. But because we are just ONE pick away, and the fact that there isn't any defensive players worth a #2 pick... and because we JUST hired Elway to help with player personnel, and because Elway Loves luck, from the same school, and has ties. Because there isn't another person on the planet that could help Luck with the hype of having that kind of rating and expectations better than Elway..... I have the TINIEST sliver of hope. Unfortunately, I have hope. :lol:

It's probably somewhat more than a TINY sliver. It's just not realistically going to happen. BUT, if you want to paint a serious scenario here's what it would be:

#1 -- Elway was at the Rose Bowl for Stanford's crushing victory and he talks to Jim Harbaugh and convinces him to come to Denver. (Realistically, Harbaugh is expected either to go to Michigan or to the NFL to coach the 49ers -- in which case he wouldn't have to leave the Bay area).

But, in our imaginary world, Elway convinces Harbaugh to come to Denver -- and the prospect of possibly coaching Luck in Denver is a big incentive.

Improbable, but possible.

#2 -- Carolina has a brain seizure and decides to stick with Clausen and trade the pick. Now they're open to a trade. Denver offers the #2 pick plus perhaps a 2nd rounder. Carolina accepts the deal.

[Reality: They're not going to do this. But, if they did they might ask for a lot, but the #2 pick plus a 2nd rounder (worth around 560 points so that's about the difference between #1 (3000) and #2 (2600), plus a bit for moving up so it's POSSIBLE Carolina would accept it -- that might be the best they could do.]

#3 With Coach Harbaugh leaving Stanford, Luck opts to enter the NFL draft.

#4 Denver pulls off the 2-fer, getting Harbaugh to coach the team and drafting Luck to be the new Franchise QB. Luck comes to Denver to play for his old college coach who knows how to get the best out of him.

#5 The Broncos manage to trade Tim Tebow for a high to mid -- 2nd round pick. (Spare me your rage Tebow-heads, that's what he's really worth right now -- many NFL executives STILL don't think he's all that wonderful, no matter HOW "excited" you are about Tebow here in Denver) He's widely considered a "project" who might never pan out as a pocket-passing QB like Drew Brees -- in short still NOT worth a #1 pick to many NFL clubs. :coffee:

#6 -- the Broncos now not only get Luck, but STILL have 2 2nd round picks, plus a 3rd rounder to concentrate on defensive players. If they stick with the 3-4 they might find a couple of decent DTs in that range (probably not worth a #2 overall pick on a 3-4 DT) and even manage to pick up a CB or LB in the 3rd so they're not entirely ignoring the defense.

I don't know whether I agree with this scenario or not, but it might be the best thing the Broncos could possibly do. You get the best QB prospect in years who might be the next Elway, and you get 3 decent defensive players and don't pay a HUGE $30+ million guaranteed contract to some 3-4 DL (like the Chiefs had to do with Glenn Dorsey and Tyson Jackson).

[Northman]

Im still waiting for a link that says Denver is even looking for a new QB.

[Elevation inc]

So if Luck has his back-channel people tell Carolina that he will not sign a deal with them, does Carolina still draft him? The best Carolina could hope for at that point is to draft him and trade him to the highest bidder which would make Denver the next obvious place especially if Luck pushes Denver as the only team he would sign with. He can turn himself into a FA and do the same thing Melo is doing to the Nuggets to get to the Knicks.

if luck drops to us and we dont trade back and rape some team like WAS or Buffalo or ARZ of draft picks for the defense, i will be forever pissed off at john elway and the new FO

[Northman]

if luck drops to us and we dont trade back and rape some team like WAS or Buffalo or ARZ of draft picks for the defense, i will be forever pissed off at john elway and the new FO

Yep. We would be morons to draft Luck with all the problems we have on this team. Until we know what we have in Tebow (which right now proves to be something good) than you dont draft a QB.

[Ravage!!!]

Denver looking to have the highest rated player in 25 years!!

There's your link

I'm still looking for a link that says we are not looking for a QB.

We would be morons NOT to draft Luck if we had the chance, considering we can still draft defense and NEVER have a chance to draft a player of this ranking again.

[vandammage13]

Denver looking to have the highest rated player in 25 years!!

There's your link

I'm still looking for a link that says we are not looking for a QB.

We would be morons NOT to draft Luck if we had the chance, considering we can still draft defense and NEVER have a chance to draft a player of this ranking again.

Link?

[Ravage!!!]

if luck drops to us and we dont trade back and rape some team like WAS or Buffalo or ARZ of draft picks for the defense, i will be forever pissed off at john elway and the new FO

If Luck drops to us, and we don't absolutely LEAP on it with both feet and then jump for JOY .. I'll scream for Elway to be fired!!! What a colossal mistake!!!

[Tned]

The Tebow/Luck debate will go on until Carolina announces that they have officially signed Luck to a contract the week of the draft.

Is Luck a standout baseball player by any chance?

[TXBRONC]

Is Luck a standout baseball player by any chance?

No but he did stay at a Holiday Inn once. :D

[Northman]

I'm still looking for a link that says we are not looking for a QB.

Because we have a first round QB taken last year who is playing well in his first 3 games. There's your link.


We would be morons NOT to draft Luck if we had the chance, considering we can still draft defense and NEVER have a chance to draft a player of this ranking again.

If we keep sucking we will get plenty of chances. But hopefully we get smart and actually start addressing the real problem on this team unlike the last 10 years.

[Northman]

If Luck drops to us, and we don't absolutely LEAP on it with both feet and then jump for JOY .. I'll scream for Elway to be fired!!! What a colossal mistake!!!

We will miss you.

[Cugel]

Yep. We would be morons to draft Luck with all the problems we have on this team. Until we know what we have in Tebow (which right now proves to be something good) than you dont draft a QB.

Unless, like almost ALL NFL experts, you rate Luck as a "once-in-a-decade" type of QB talent, possibly the best QB prospect to come into the league since Peyton Manning or Drew Brees, and Tebow as a "project" who might never be an elite QB in the NFL. :coffee:

In that case, you say "Thanks for the Memories Tebow! Don't Let The Door Hit You In The Butt On Your Shuffle Off To Buffalo (Or Wherever)!" :coffee:

I'm not saying this will happen. It probably WON'T because Carolina isn't stupid. They will do exactly what Denver would do with Tebow: "Goodbye Jimmy Clausen! Good luck with your next team." :wave:

But, if Xanders agrees with the consensus assessment of Tebow as a "project" and Luck as a "sure fire All-Pro" then you make the deal. And then the Tebow-heads can scream all they want to. Within a couple of weeks the fans will accept it just as most (not me) did with the trade of Jay Cutler. (Tebow is NOT a better QB right now than Jay Cutler FYI) :coffee:

[vandammage13]

Unless, like almost ALL NFL experts, you rate Luck as a "once-in-a-decade" type of QB talent, possibly the best QB prospect to come into the league since Peyton Manning or Drew Brees, and Tebow as a "project" who might never be an elite QB in the NFL. :coffee:

Drew Brees wasn't exactly regarded as a can't miss pro prospect coming into the draft by these highly esteemed "NFL Experts"....he was drafted in the 2nd round.

[Nomad]

Hypotheical debate over!!

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft2011/news/story?id=5988254

[Cugel]

If we keep sucking we will get plenty of chances. But hopefully we get smart and actually start addressing the real problem on this team unlike the last 10 years.

Well, here's a scenario that won't make you happy! :coffee:

Carolina trades the pick to Denver for Denver's top 2 picks. Denver selects Luck. When asked about the deal GM Brian Xanders says:

"We thought long and hard about this, and we didn't feel that since we play in a 3-4 defense any of the defensive prospects we could take at #2 were worthy of that pick. We would probably be overpaying a DL for what we are asking them to do in our defensive scheme. We didn't see a NT we liked with that pick, and we just re-signed Champ Bailey and we have Goodman so we're not looking to invest a #2 pick in a CB.

And while we like what Tim Tebow has done in his limited time here in Denver, we just feel that Luck is the best QB prospect to come into the draft in many years. We couldn't pass up the chance to get a guy that our entire scouting department feel is a "can't-miss" prospect and a potential future Hall of Famer." :coffee:

The only thing standing between this happening is the Carolina Panthers. :coffee:

The new coach will have ZERO commitment to Tebow and New Coaches Mean New QBs. Almost always. Because the new guy doesn't want to risk his job on the guy who got fired's "project". :coffee:

[Cugel]

Drew Brees wasn't exactly regarded as a can't miss pro prospect coming into the draft by these highly esteemed "NFL Experts"....he was drafted in the 2nd round.

Well, there's an utterly pointless aside! :coffee:

I'm talking about how he's viewed NOW, not his draft status at the time! Who cares about that? Lots of guys who prove themselves, and some don't.

If you mean to disparage the NFL "experts" well, you can forget it. THEY and not YOU are the ones whose opinions mean something. Are they always right? No.

Does that matter? No. NFL GMs are going to go with what they consider the best, most informed opinions, and not what some fan might think. :coffee:

And that considered opinion is that Luck is the best NFL prospect in a LONG time and that Tebow is not. Deal with it. :coffee:

[Ravage!!!]

His rating is the closest thing to Elway, Since Elway.

Like I said before, I don't expect it to happen, but I WANT it to happen. If by the weird fluke that he drops to us, We ABSOLUTELY take him, and STILL able to build the defense with other picks without this "neglecting the defense" BS being said. You con't have to use your first pick on defense to avoid "neglecting the defense." This team hasn't had a franchise QB (stick around) since Elway, and THAT has been teh biggest problem this team has had, as well as any team still looking for one.

Indy wasn't contender ( on consistent basis) until Manning. Dallas wasn't after Aiman, Niners after Young, Bills after Kelly, Miami after Marino, Denver after Elway. Its not a coincidence that the teams like the Browns haven't been good. Look at their QB play.

The top teams in each division isn't build around superior defenses... they have Tom Brady and Matt Ryan (who also had a top rating).

I get that people believe drafting high defense is the way to go, but why can't we still build a defense while having a top QB passer behind center? Why is it separate? How is it that Luck is some kind of "hope"... yet a DL is a sure thing when it comes to the draft??? :confused: Luck has a lot higher chances of being successful than any other player that could be taken at our spot.

[Cugel]

Sources: Panthers to pick Andrew Luck

By Pat Yasinskas
ESPN.com
Archive

CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- If Stanford quarterback Andrew Luck decides to enter the 2011 draft, the Carolina Panthers will take him, two high-ranking team officials said Tuesday. . . .

A redshirt sophomore, Luck finished his season in Monday night's Discover Orange Bowl and has until Jan. 15 to declare if he will enter the draft. Although there have been reports indicating Luck may choose to stay in college, the Panthers remain optimistic he will turn pro.

Luck is viewed as the top prospect in the country by most draft analysts and the Panthers don't disagree with that assessment. The team officials said they wouldn't even consider trading down in the draft if Luck is available.

Exactly what everybody said they would do. :coffee:

At least that's their current public position. When you consider how extremely paranoid every NFL team is about giving away any hint of what they might do in the draft, you have to take reports like this with a grain of salt though.

Most NFL GMs are as paranoid as Al Davis about their draft day intentions.

So, this COULD be part of a scheme to bump up the price for their pick (because if teams thought Luck might fall to Denver, and that Denver having Tebow might trade the pick then the logical thing to do is trade for Denver's pick and not Carolina's!)

But, if teams thought Carolina might draft Luck, or that Denver would keep their #2 pick and draft him, then they would be inclined to offer more in a deal to Carolina.

Probably of course, they still take Luck because that's the logical thing to do, but there's still a chance they won't and that this is a smoke-screen (because that's what teams do this time of year).

[Northman]

I'm not saying this will happen. It probably WON'T because Carolina isn't stupid.


I can save you the time so you wont get your hopes up, it wont happen.

[Northman]

Drew Brees wasn't exactly regarded as a can't miss pro prospect coming into the draft by these highly esteemed "NFL Experts"....he was drafted in the 2nd round.

Indeed.

Brees was discarded because he was a later round draft pick and now he has a SB ring while Rivers does not.

Oooops.

[JDL]

wow do you really not get the difference in impact between the # 2 and @ #34 picks...seriously????? so we should get luck and draft 2nd rd scraps for our DL and pass on the chance for a elite player on defense......okay got it...

draft luck, ignore defense again, trade Luck in 3 years when a new coach comes in because he will wnat his guy and were still rebuilding, and were still stuck in the basement becasue our f'in defense has been ignored yet again so we can get a brand new shiny offense and toy in luck......


thanks i'll pass on that whole BS

Hmmmm.. apparently you don't get the difference. Top players selected on Defense in 1st and 2nd rd

You'd probably take Courtney Brown over Peyton Manning if given the chance.

As for great D players... haven't seen a whole lot taken in the last 15 years.

Brian Dawkins (pick 61)
Ray Lewis (Pick 26)
Ed Reed (Pick 24)
Jared Allen (Pick 126)
Justin Tuck (Pick 74)
Jay Ratliff (Pick 224)
Robert Mathis (Pick 138)
James Harrison (undrafted)
Cameron Wake (undrafted)
Jason Babin (Pick 27)
Nnamdi Asomugha (Pick 31)
Devin McCourty (Pick 27)
Asante Samuel (Pick 120)
Nick Collins (Pick 51)
Brandon Meriweather (Pick 24)

Top 5 studs? Yeah, there haven't been a lot. Julius Peppers. Charles Woodson and Ndamukong Suh. Mostly there have been Gerard Warren, Darrell Russell, Andre Wadsworth, Courtney Brown, Lavar Arrington, Gaines Adams, Chris Long, AJ Hawk (got benched earlier this year), Dewayne Robertson, Quentin Jammer.

Meanwhile the 2nd rd is littered with Pro Bowlers... some of the very best in the game were 2nd rd players... so stop trying to say that you can't fix the defense in the 2nd rd or that we HAVE to pick this or that... because Denver SHOULD pick whomever is the best player available... in 5 years I sure as hell would rather a Larry Fitzgerald (for instance) over freaking Courtney Brown, Andre Wadsworth.

There is no DL prospect in Suh's category this year... not even close... no Julius Peppers type prospect... there are some nice prospects, but so was Gaines Adams for instance and Gerard Warren. The 2nd best is Patrick Peterson - Andrew Luck is the first... you take the best prospect and you don't look back... because we didn't get 4-12 by being great on either side of the ball... and 1 defensive pick doesn't fix a defense.. Robert Ayers was the top rated D player by some, he hasn't done much. Defense is mostly coaching as Nolan proved and to be a Ravens or Steelers type D, then you have to pour tons of draft picks into that side of the ball and let the offense suffer some (plus you can't miss on really any picks, and they don't.)

Tebow is unproven, but he has looked nice... he isn't a better prospect (and he is still just a prospect with limited NFL game film) than Luck...Luck is in the same class as Elway was coming out... better than Peyton Manning (who had questions about his ability to win big games which is why Leaf was in contention for the #1 pick.) You simply do not pass on QBs like that. It doesn't matter because Carolina gets THAT... they aren't passing on Luck, they aren't trading it away... the ONLY way Luck would get to us is if he pulled an Elway and that isn't likely to happen. So why all the worry and fret and ignorant knocking of Luck... Andrew Luck will probably be a great QB... Tebow may be as well... your opinion of one shouldn't be affected by your opinion of the other.

[JDL]

Indeed.

Brees was discarded because he was a later round draft pick and now he has a SB ring while Rivers does not.

Oooops.

Jake Plummer was thought to be the next Joe Montana... ooops.

Tebow hasn't proven anything...neither has Luck. It is all a probability game... Luck has maybe a 70% chance of being great, Tebow maybe 50-55% right now... whatever it is it doesn't mean the probabilities will tell the tale, but if you ignore the probabilities... you may get lucky once in a awhile, but in the end you'll be the Detroit Lions.

[Northman]

Jake Plummer was thought to be the next Joe Montana... ooops.

Tebow hasn't proven anything...neither has Luck. It is all a probability game... Luck has maybe a 70% chance of being great, Tebow maybe 50-55% right now... whatever it is it doesn't mean the probabilities will tell the tale, but if you ignore the probabilities... you may get lucky once in a awhile, but in the end you'll be the Detroit Lions.


I cant remember, when's the last time a team has drafted a first round QB two years straight?

[vandammage13]

Well, there's an utterly pointless aside! :coffee:

I'm talking about how he's viewed NOW, not his draft status at the time! Who cares about that? Lots of guys who prove themselves, and some don't.

If you mean to disparage the NFL "experts" well, you can forget it. THEY and not YOU are the ones whose opinions mean something. Are they always right? No.

Does that matter? No. NFL GMs are going to go with what they consider the best, most informed opinions, and not what some fan might think. :coffee:

And that considered opinion is that Luck is the best NFL prospect in a LONG time and that Tebow is not. Deal with it. :coffee:

News to me....I wasn't aware that the "Experts" opinions meant anything either. I only thought the GMs and HCs mattered.

[claymore]

Man I hope we get luck. Watching Tebow play QB is like watching a fat girl dance. He looks awkward and out of place. His rah rah BS is irritating to.

[Ravage!!!]

I cant remember, when's the last time a team has drafted a first round QB two years straight?

Yeah.. but when was the last time you saw a coach come in and trade away the top players on a team, trade away future first for today's seconds, and sign a QB, and then spend 4 picks on another?

Can't really used that last FO as a measuring stick. Not to mention, when was the last time a team dafted a 1st round QB only to be in near position to draft the bst to come out in 25 years?

A lot of things have to happen in order to even be in that position to begin with, and that doesn't even start talking on whether or not Tebow was worth the first round pick at all.

[Ravage!!!]

News to me....I wasn't aware that the "Experts" opinions meant anything either. I only thought the GMs and HCs mattered.

You don't think that the HC and GMs use the NFL scouts as sources of reliable information?

[shank]

Yeah.. but when was the last time you saw a coach come in and trade away the top players on a team, trade away future first for today's seconds, and sign a QB, and then spend 4 picks on another?


and yet, you're proposing that our next coach come to denver and potentially repeat all of the same mistakes that literally just toppled the franchise?

[Lancane]

But what about Ryan Mallett?

http://ogdraft.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/ryan-mallett.jpg

[Ravage!!!]

what about him?

[Lancane]

what about him?

Well with Luck going to Carolina, and rumor of Arizona looking to take Mallett with the 5th overall pick, would you be surprised if Denver took him with the 2nd overall pick? I wouldn't...he's got a big arm like Cutler!

:D

[Cugel]

Indeed.

Brees was discarded because he was a later round draft pick and now he has a SB ring while Rivers does not.

Oooops.

You're obviously completely unfamiliar with the circumstances surrounding Brees' departure from SD. :coffee:

It had NOTHING to do with "because he was a later round draft pick." ZERO. Brees was injured and there were some questions about his durability. He'd had a great season, and coach Marty Shottenheimer wanted to keep Brees and trade Phillip Rivers. GM AJ Smith wanted the opposite. It got so bad they weren't talking to each other.

Smith won, Marty lost and lost his job too. They fired Marty, brought in Norv Turner, shipped out Brees and kept Phillip Rivers. There's not a lot of difference in talent between them.

IF they'd kept Brees they probably STILL would not have won a championship -- but we'll never know. Perhaps Drew would have gotten them to the SB. That's unprovable. :coffee:

But, his draft position was totally immaterial to the entire controversy which rages to this day in SD.

[Cugel]

Well with Luck going to Carolina, and rumor of Arizona looking to take Mallett with the 5th overall pick, would you be surprised if Denver took him with the 2nd overall pick? I wouldn't...he's got a big arm like Cutler!

:D

:laugh: You're just saying that so that the Tebow-maniacs' heads will explode, right? :laugh:

I can just imagine the scene on draft day:

"With the #2 pick of the NFL draft, the Denver Broncos select Arkansas QB Ryan Mallett!"

Tebowniacs: "WTF????" :eek::eek::shocked:

[Lancane]

:laugh: You're just saying that so that the Tebow-maniacs' heads will explode, right? :laugh:

I can just imagine the scene on draft day:

"With the #2 pick of the NFL draft, the Denver Broncos select Arkansas QB Ryan Mallett!"

Tebowniacs: "WTF????" :eek::eek::shocked:

They'd be even more pissed come the 16th overall pick, "The Miami Dolphins have traded the 16th overall pick in the 2011 NFL Draft to the Denver Broncos for quarterback Tim Tebow and running back Knowshon Moreno!"

:lol:

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Denver looking to have the highest rated player in 25 years!!

There's your link

I'm still looking for a link that says we are not looking for a QB.

We would be morons NOT to draft Luck if we had the chance, considering we can still draft defense and NEVER have a chance to draft a player of this ranking again.

Highest rated by who? You mean a can't miss prospect like Reggie Bush? A Can't miss prospect like Ryan Leaf?

I think this "top prospect in 25 years" BS is the kind of shit that spews forth from Kiper and McShay too damned much and now you've bought in. I watch this guy play and I see Mark Sanchez. Everyone who compares him to Elway or even Manning as a passer needs to go back and watch some more tape. This kid ain't even close...

[BroncoJoe]

Fix the defense, worry about the QB later.

Tebow has shown he at least deserves the change to prove himself.

[arapaho2]

in the end its all what ifs and thats about it

there is absalutly zero....zero chance carolina trades the number #1 pick if luck come out


end of story...no package...no hypothetical deal....no matter what makes sense for the broncos, luck or defense...if luck is the man, the qb everyone thinks he is....carolina will take him...period

[Ravage!!!]

in the end its all what ifs and thats about it

there is absalutly zero....zero chance carolina trades the number #1 pick if luck come out


end of story...no package...no hypothetical deal....no matter what makes sense for the broncos, luck or defense...if luck is the man, the qb everyone thinks he is....carolina will take him...period

Ok.. maybe.

I mean, I completely agree. No way Carolina gets rid of that pick when they can take the best prospect to come out in 25 years. It was just perfect for them to finish last in the NFL, and if there was a time I wanted us to finish last, THIS would have been the year I wanted to finish last.

So I guess we just spend the next 4 months talking about what DT to take. Some want to talk about trading down and having alllll these picks being thrown at us as if it ever happens in the NFL. I mean, I might as well dream on what I would do to get Luck, than hash that over and over again. As long as we are dreaming, wishing, wanting, and hoping anyway.

[Tebow666]

The #2 DEFENSIVE Player will NOT change this franchise. They defensive player will NEVER have the impact that a QB would.. period. Ever. If there is even a Chance to go after Luck, you do it. We are withink ONE draft spot of taking the best QB prospect in 25 years!

There is absolutely, 100%, reason to believe that we should go after THAT player. Our team is at the bottom. You build around a QB, and that means the defnse too. Good QBs help defenses.

There are lots of picks left, and there is NO defensive player even CLOSE that deserves the #2 overall pick as much as Luck deserves the #1. Nowhere anywhere close. Luck is THAT good.

Moving to get Luck would NOT be neglecting this team or this defense. Thats false. Thats short sighted. Thats not looking 5 years down the road. Thats tunnel vision and reactionary drafting.

Teams just do NOT move up to the #2 spot, and thus expecting us to trade down and 'stockpile" picks, isn't go ing to happen.

This "give Tebow a chance" thing doesn't work. You give your team the BEST chance to succeed, and thats getting the most impact players possible, and right now its POSSIBLE for us to make a deal for the most impactive player on the field..... the QB. Not that I think its going to happen, but because we are #2, its POSSIBLE. Absolutely there is reason to consider it... absolutely.


Get over it.... i also think hes gonna be a star, and it will be cool to see him succeed on another team and have great matchups when we play him and beat him. we have a huge star already.
Your blindness for this one pick makes you neglect the rest of the team.
Doesnt even seem like youre a Bronco fan....more like a one player bandwagon fan...

[BroncoJoe]

Get over it.... i also think hes gonna be a star, and it will be cool to see him succeed on another team and have great matchups when we play him and beat him. we have a huge star already.
Your blindness for this one pick makes you neglect the rest of the team.
Doesnt even seem like youre a Bronco fan....more like a one player bandwagon fan...

Interesting screen name you have ...

[Tebow666]

Interesting screen name you have ...

thank u sir.

[BroncoJoe]

thank u sir.

Curious - why Tebow with 666?

[Ravage!!!]

Get over it.... i also think hes gonna be a star, and it will be cool to see him succeed on another team and have great matchups when we play him and beat him. we have a huge star already.
Your blindness for this one pick makes you neglect the rest of the team.
Doesnt even seem like youre a Bronco fan....more like a one player bandwagon fan...

:lol: Says the new guy wearing the TEBOW name.. calling me a one-player bandwagon fan. Hilarious. This needs to be placed as the definition of Irony.

Let me guess, you are upset that people don't believe Tebow to be the guy, and are upset that people don't have the faith that Tebow is gonna be great, and are upset that people would even consider replacing him, right? Hard to fathom an opposing thought, hard to accept that anyone would possibly even believe that Tebow will never be the passing QB a franchise needs to be serious contenders year in and year out?

Absurd statement from you all the way through your post. Not one accurate point. Taking a player doesn't neglect the rest of this team. Making a move for the most important position on the field, does NOT hurt the defense, and could very very VERY well be said to help the defense when you have that quality player behind center. I've seen NOTHING that shows me that Tebow is a huge star, and from watching them both play, Luck is already a better QB, even as a sophmore in college, than Tebow is after a full year in the NFL. Tebow has proved to be more of a project than I was hoping to see at this point.

Doesn't seem that you are very much of a foootball fan, not to mention a Bronco fan. More like you are just another one-player, Tebow, fan that found a message board. I guessing if Tebow was a Jaguar, you would be there and not here. Lucky for them.

[Northman]

You're obviously completely unfamiliar with the circumstances surrounding Brees' departure from SD. :coffee:

It had NOTHING to do with "because he was a later round draft pick." ZERO. Brees was injured and there were some questions about his durability. He'd had a great season, and coach Marty Shottenheimer wanted to keep Brees and trade Phillip Rivers. GM AJ Smith wanted the opposite. It got so bad they weren't talking to each other.

Smith won, Marty lost and lost his job too. They fired Marty, brought in Norv Turner, shipped out Brees and kept Phillip Rivers. There's not a lot of difference in talent between them.

IF they'd kept Brees they probably STILL would not have won a championship -- but we'll never know. Perhaps Drew would have gotten them to the SB. That's unprovable. :coffee:

But, his draft position was totally immaterial to the entire controversy which rages to this day in SD.

Uh, i never implied that his draft position was the reason only that the money invested in each played a part. :coffee:

[CoachChaz]

People are sheep. The populus likes Luck...so fans like Luck. The populus didnt like Tebow...so fans dont like Tebow. Everyone has an opinion, but we know what opinions are like. Would all of the armchair scouts PLEASE actually look at some tape of Luck and watch all the aspects of his game. I find it interesting that everyone wants a guy that has all the positives AND negatives of guys we already have. Luck is a huge competitor that drops his arm and winds up to throw...sounds familiar. He's also a guy that makes smart decisions but doesnt have a very strong arm...sounds a bit familiar as well.

I wont say the kids is going to fail in the NFL...but all this talk of best prospect in 25 years? I dont see it. He's good, but he's not God.

[Dirk]

People are sheep. The populus likes Luck...so fans like Luck. The populus didnt like Tebow...so fans dont like Tebow. Everyone has an opinion, but we know what opinions are like. Would all of the armchair scouts PLEASE actually look at some tape of Luck and watch all the aspects of his game. I find it interesting that everyone wants a guy that has all the positives AND negatives of guys we already have. Luck is a huge competitor that drops his arm and winds up to throw...sounds familiar. He's also a guy that makes smart decisions but doesnt have a very strong arm...sounds a bit familiar as well.

I wont say the kids is going to fail in the NFL...but all this talk of best prospect in 25 years? I dont see it. He's good, but he's not God.

I hear ya. I am a sheep I guess. :tsk:

I think it's because we have been waiting for a QB since Elway retired that would bring back some "Mile High Magic" to the Broncos again.

Luck is presented with that type of hype. Tebow very well could be that very guy.

I want to see what Tebow has next year and I want defense this coming draft dammit!

[Ravage!!!]

People are sheep. The populus likes Luck...so fans like Luck. The populus didnt like Tebow...so fans dont like Tebow. Everyone has an opinion, but we know what opinions are like. Would all of the armchair scouts PLEASE actually look at some tape of Luck and watch all the aspects of his game. I find it interesting that everyone wants a guy that has all the positives AND negatives of guys we already have. Luck is a huge competitor that drops his arm and winds up to throw...sounds familiar. He's also a guy that makes smart decisions but doesnt have a very strong arm...sounds a bit familiar as well.

I wont say the kids is going to fail in the NFL...but all this talk of best prospect in 25 years? I dont see it. He's good, but he's not God.

With all-do respect, coach, this isn't correct (obviously he isn't god, however). THis isn't right. I watched his games (not all didn't have the chance).. but his form does not wind up. He is tight in his form, and very quick release. Doesn't have a cannon, but his intelligence in reading defenses is FAR beyond what we have.


Trent Dilfer, and Ron Jaworski, (both of whom are people I'm sure we both respect in their opinion when it comes to watching game tape) LITERALLY say "He's the best that I've seen. I do not see a flaw in his game." That is NOT like the flavor of the month. They don't say the same things every year about QBs. They don't give out those kind of reviews simply because he had a good year.

He moves his eyes to create room with safeties, and even does the small things like dipping shoulders to make a safety move. He is very good with his feet, and his intelligence is off the charts.... right down to having a photographic memory.

He is NOTHING like the QB we have.

[EMB6903]

Luck's release and Tebow's release has no comparison what so ever.

[SM19]

Can someone clarify what these "debates" are about? Because two things seem very clear to me:

1) We won't have a chance to draft Luck.
2) Luck is so much better right now than Tebow that the only possible objection to drafting Luck, if we had the chance, is that Luck isn't better than Tebow plus Fairley/Bowers/Peterson.

[Foochacho]

Luck is staying in school now these talks can stop. Why would he stay in school? He was almost certainly a number 1 pick.

[Tebow666]

:lol: Says the new guy wearing the TEBOW name.. calling me a one-player bandwagon fan. Hilarious. This needs to be placed as the definition of Irony.

Doesn't seem that you are very much of a foootball fan, not to mention a Bronco fan. More like you are just another one-player, Tebow, fan that found a message board. I guessing if Tebow was a Jaguar, you would be there and not here. Lucky for them.

I remember my days as a Bronco fan watching "The Drive"
you on the other hand only heard about it or seen it on some NFL films documentary....

and Luck is staying in school....bye bye