Chargers Wary of Tebow

[tripleoption]

Found this little snippet at Chargers.com.

http://www.chargers.com/news/article-1/Chargers-wary-of-Tebow/8e9289d2-42b1-41dd-95c4-5f1945a6388a

[PAINTERDAVE]

Good read... Thanks.

Despite not being taken serious by his detractors...
he is certainly taken serious by his opponents.

[zbeg]

Good read... Thanks.

Despite not being taken serious by his detractors...
he is certainly taken serious by his opponents.

He's losing a lot of detractors. I think people who thought he wouldn't develop this quickly (because really, he's WAY ahead of any normal career expectation to this point) are realizing that Tebow has progressed much further than anticipated, and are coming around.

I don't think the claims against Tebow were unreasonable. Quarterbacks coming out of college who were so unpolished have a pretty poor success rate in the NFL. So you're basically expecting Tebow to defy the odds. Granted, if anyone can defy the odds it seemed like this guy could, but he still has to defy said odds.

Although some didn't like Tebow because of his religious reasons, folks like Kiper, McShay, Dilfer, etc. had pretty grounded, football-related reasons for disliking the Tebow pick. I don't fault them; given the information they had at the time, it's not an unreasonable conclusion to think that Tebow has to overcome an awful lot to become a polished NFL passer. And he still has a long ways to go, let's not forget. But I know at least Dilfer's come around on the guy.

If his career path continues as it has thus far, there won't be many detractors left in a year or two. But I can certainly understand where said detractors (of which I was one) were coming from.

[sneakers]

A lot more teams will be typing up stuff like this in years to come....

[Dreadnought]

He's losing a lot of detractors. I think people who thought he wouldn't develop this quickly (because really, he's WAY ahead of any normal career expectation to this point) are realizing that Tebow has progressed much further than anticipated, and are coming around.

I don't think the claims against Tebow were unreasonable. Quarterbacks coming out of college who were so unpolished have a pretty poor success rate in the NFL. So you're basically expecting Tebow to defy the odds. Granted, if anyone can defy the odds it seemed like this guy could, but he still has to defy said odds.

Although some didn't like Tebow because of his religious reasons, folks like Kiper, McShay, Dilfer, etc. had pretty grounded, football-related reasons for disliking the Tebow pick. I don't fault them; given the information they had at the time, it's not an unreasonable conclusion to think that Tebow has to overcome an awful lot to become a polished NFL passer. And he still has a long ways to go, let's not forget. But I know at least Dilfer's come around on the guy.

If his career path continues as it has thus far, there won't be many detractors left in a year or two. But I can certainly understand where said detractors (of which I was one) were coming from.

Agreed. I am a pretty big Tebow homer, but I'd add this. He is has an extremely unorthodox style of play, and throws quirky problems at a defense, even down to being lefthanded. There is also very little NFL game on him film to break down yet. I think sometimes running QB's hit with a splash until such time as defensive coordinators can find the silver bullet that can stop them. My hope is that Tebow is very far from a one-trick pony, and can add knowledge of the fundamentals of playing the NFL game at QB as fast as defenses can game plan against him. One positive indicator is how fast he has picked up his footwork (as you pointed out elsewhere) taking snaps directly from under center.

[ursamajor]

Agreed. I am a pretty big Tebow homer, but I'd add this. He is has an extremely unorthodox style of play, and throws quirky problems at a defense, even down to being lefthanded. There is also very little NFL game on him film to break down yet. I think sometimes running QB's hit with a splash until such time as defensive coordinators can find the silver bullet that can stop them. My hope is that Tebow is very far from a one-trick pony, and can add knowledge of the fundamentals of playing the NFL game at QB as fast as defenses can game plan against him. One positive indicator is how fast he has picked up his footwork (as you pointed out elsewhere) taking snaps directly from under center.

Tebow will be fine. What he needed was time to learn the things that he didn't in college. Fundamentals, operating from under center, etc. As well as studying how pro style defenses operate, different coverages, etc.

It was good that he wasn't started sooner, because it could have had a serious impact on a young player's confidence if they play poorly.

[tripleoption]

I think regardless of how Tebow does tomorrow, teams are going to be looking at him in the offseason and preparing for him. I expect the Chargers to put a ton of pressure on him and mix in a lot of man and different types of zone coverages and zone blitz schemes to confuse him. I also think they'll work at disguising their coverages a lot to find out if he can read on the run and/or see if he can tell what is happening right before the snap. Tebow has shown me enough to make me think you can't just sit back in whatever coverage you want to run without disguising it and moving around prior to the snap. The Chargers know they have to play him next year, so they might as well throw their entire defensive playbook at him and see what he can do.
I know this has been said before many times, but Tebow will have his bad games, even awful games. He has a lot to learn still. If he has one tomorrow, in no way shape or form is it an indictment on his abilities as a QB. I'll view a bad game as a cup half full situation, something he'll learn from. I fully believe he's an up an coming player who is going to prove a lot of his detractors wrong. Lets not forget that Elway had a horrible first year, with a QB rating of 54.9 and was benched for Steve DeBerg. I'm not in any way shape or form comparing Tebow to Elway, as there will only be one John Elway, but just want to put a quick comparison in there.

[TXBRONC]

The biggest reason that they are wary of him has to do with fact that there is very little game film on him which is to Tebow's advantage. It also helps to have mobile quarterback behind center verses one that is inconsistent in being able feel the rush and slide away from pressure.

[JaxBroncoGirl]

I would be wary of anyone that jogs and pushes a large SUV down the road while training for the NFL.

[horsepig]

I'm an admitted Tebow homer and have been since the 25th pick in last years draft. I've always been a believer that a QB cannot learn much holding a clipboard on game day. That said, I fully expect him to have some pretty tough outings. Look for defenses to try heavy pressure up the middle ala the Faiders.

One dimension of his game that I never here any talking heads blabber on about is field vision. So far he seems to be pretty strong in this very key area. If he can read and see the field like a Tom Brady, then his mechanics are of little concern. The split seconds he can gain by having great field vision will more than off-set a few quirky throwing motions.

[tripleoption]

I'm an admitted Tebow homer and have been since the 25th pick in last years draft. I've always been a believer that a QB cannot learn much holding a clipboard on game day. That said, I fully expect him to have some pretty tough outings. Look for defenses to try heavy pressure up the middle ala the Faiders.

One dimension of his game that I never here any talking heads blabber on about is field vision. So far he seems to be pretty strong in this very key area. If he can read and see the field like a Tom Brady, then his mechanics are of little concern. The split seconds he can gain by having great field vision will more than off-set a few quirky throwing motions.

Very good point, I hadn't even thought about that. I'm also with the pressure bit. The Chargers are better than us up front, with a far more experienced coaching staff, so we're already behind the 8 ball going in. But that's why you play the games. Hardly anyone expected the Broncos to beat the Texans, especially after being down 17-0, so lets just get our nachos and enjoy the game! :salute:

[TXBRONC]

Very good point, I hadn't even thought about that. I'm also with the pressure bit. The Chargers are better than us up front, with a far more experienced coaching staff, so we're already behind the 8 ball going in. But that's why you play the games. Hardly anyone expected the Broncos to beat the Texans, especially after being down 17-0, so lets just get our nachos and enjoy the game! :salute:

The Chargers for all there problems haven't gotten much of fight from us since Rivers became their starting quarterback :mad: So while they might come into Denver with attitude of just playing out the string they still come in with a ton confidence knowing that they beaten us like rented mule over that four or five years.

[tripleoption]

The Chargers for all there problems haven't gotten much of fight from us since Rivers became their starting quarterback :mad: So while they might come into Denver with attitude of just playing out the string they still come in with a ton confidence knowing that they beaten us like rented mule over that four or five years.

True that. I would disappointed if Tebow has a bad game tomorrow, but he'll have one sometime. How will he handle a game where he's getting pounded? Midreading coverages? Throwing picks? Has a game with a QB rating worse than Ryan Leaf? How will he handle it if he makes a play to lose a game? How will he handle it if his last game of the season is horrible and he has to live with it in the offseason along with the 'see I told ya so's' that'll come with it? Some guys after a bad game or two let it snowball and will even let stuff like that derail their careers. I think he's the kind of guy that can come back strong from a bad game and continue to play well if not improve from it.
I'll always remember one thing I read about that happened to Elway years ago. After they got pounded in Super Bowl XXIV 55-10, Elway was the last one in the locker room still in the shower. Someone came in to talk to him, I don't remember who, and Elway said something along the lines of "They'll never forgive me for this in Denver". As we know he brushed it off and went on to win two SB's. :salute:

[Dzone]

USA Today picked Denver to win. Something like 30-17

[Dzone]

All the talk about Tebows unorthodox delivery is a waste of time. Bernie Kosar got the NFL MVP in the 80s. He had the goofiest throwing motion in NFL history. Just saw it on the NFL network.

[tripleoption]

All the talk about Tebows unorthodox delivery is a waste of time. Bernie Kosar got the NFL MVP in the 80s. He had the goofiest throwing motion in NFL history. Just saw it on the NFL network.

Yeah, that goofy motion almost kept us out of two Super Bowls and for those of us that are older Kosar was just killing us and making us chew our nails off in two AFC Championship games.

[MacGruder]

He's losing a lot of detractors. I think people who thought he wouldn't develop this quickly (because really, he's WAY ahead of any normal career expectation to this point) are realizing that Tebow has progressed much further than anticipated, and are coming around.

You are propagating a myth here. If anything changing Tebow's motion and messing with Tebow's mechanics may have slowed his progress down.

The reality isn't that Tebow has made some miraculous progress which is why he is already playing well.. the reality is that the critics have no clue what they are talking about. Tebow doesn't look like a normal QB and didn't play in an NFL offense and play the QB position like other QBs. People made assumptions based on this that were completely false. Now they are trying to find excuses to explain why he is playing well.


I don't think the claims against Tebow were unreasonable. Quarterbacks coming out of college who were so unpolished have a pretty poor success rate in the NFL. So you're basically expecting Tebow to defy the odds. Granted, if anyone can defy the odds it seemed like this guy could, but he still has to defy said odds.

Unorthodox doesn't mean unpolished. This is what the people who evaluated Tebow got completely wrong. It's only defying the odds if you don't know what you are talking about with Tebow. If they actually watched him play and understood the level of competition he completely dominated they would understand this. People assumed that he was carried by a talented team when the reality was the complete opposite. This is why so many were so critical of Tebow.


Although some didn't like Tebow because of his religious reasons, folks like Kiper, McShay, Dilfer, etc. had pretty grounded, football-related reasons for disliking the Tebow pick.

Actually they were cliches based on faulty assumptions. Just like the people that assumed Jake Locker was better than Tebow because he looked like a conventional QB and didn't understand he played far weaker defenses compared to Tebow.


I don't fault them; given the information they had at the time, it's not an unreasonable conclusion to think that Tebow has to overcome an awful lot to become a polished NFL passer. And he still has a long ways to go, let's not forget. But I know at least Dilfer's come around on the guy.

Tebow has to adapt his game to the NFL... but so does EVERY QB. I think people are looking at this in a very silly way though.. the way they should be looking at it is to realize that Tebow completely DOMINATED the toughest conference in football like no one else in history and he did it with raw skills. Imagine what he could do with some real coaching. Surely this is what McDaniels realized as an actual great NFL QB coach instead of a poser.


If his career path continues as it has thus far, there won't be many detractors left in a year or two. But I can certainly understand where said detractors (of which I was one) were coming from.

You are giving yourself and the other critics way too much credit. You made silly assumptions based on knee jerk reactions and hearsay,.. sorry... But that is the reality.

The only excuse I can see for people like this is that Tebow is an incredible talent and incredibly unorthodox and is revolutionizing the QB position. I think he just completely magnifies the flaws of the talent evaluation system which is based on silly measurables and a cookie cutter mentality.

Also, aside from the terrible talent evaluation system is that Tebow really highlights a problem with the way QBs have been used strategically in football. I think it's painfully obvious that the NFL is unwilling to adapt the QB position to an era where every other position has developed athletically but the QB position.

This is why you see guys like Tebow and Vick being so dominant.. and really they did it without a support system. These are the kinds of athletes that should have been targeted AS QBs rather than finesse pocket passers. Could you imagine how good guys like Tebow and Vick would be if they had been embraced by the football system as QBs early on rather than having to fight it to get where they are?

[MacGruder]

Yeah, that goofy motion almost kept us out of two Super Bowls and for those of us that are older Kosar was just killing us and making us chew our nails off in two AFC Championship games.

How do you know it was the delivery and not some other aspect of his game or talent or your team holding him back?

[Denver Native (Carol)]

You are propagating a myth here. If anything changing Tebow's motion and messing with Tebow's mechanics may have slowed his progress down.

The reality isn't that Tebow has made some miraculous progress which is why he is already playing well.. the reality is that the critics have no clue what they are talking about. Tebow doesn't look like a normal QB and didn't play in an NFL offense and play the QB position like other QBs. People made assumptions based on this that were completely false. Now they are trying to find excuses to explain why he is playing well.



Unorthodox doesn't mean unpolished. This is what the people who evaluated Tebow got completely wrong. It's only defying the odds if you don't know what you are talking about with Tebow. If you actually watched him play and understand the level of competition he completely dominated. People assumed that he was carried by a talented team when the reality was the complete opposite. This is why so many were so critical of Tebow.



Actually they were cliches based on faulty assumptions. Just like the people that assumed Jake Locker was better than Tebow because he looked like a conventional QB and didn't understand he played weak defenses compared to Tebow.



Tebow has to adapt his game to the NFL... but so does EVERY QB. I think people are looking at this in a very silly way though.. the way they should be looking at it is to realize that Tebow completely DOMINATED the toughest conference in football like no one else in history and he did it with raw skills. Imagine what he could do with some real coaching. Surely this is what McDaniels realized as a actual QB coach.



You are giving yourself and the other critics way too much credit. You made silly assumptions based on knee jerk reactions and hearsay,.. sorry... But that is the reality.

The only excuse I can see for people like this is that Tebow is an incredible talent and incredibly unorthodox and is revolutionizing the QB position. I think he just completely magnifies the flaws of the talent evaluation system which is based on silly measurables.

Also, aside from the terrible talent evaluation system is that Tebow really highlights a problem with the way QBs have been used strategically in football. I think it's painfully obvious that the NFL is unwilling to adapt the QB position to an era where every other position had developed athletically but the QB position.

This is why you see guys like Tebow and Vick being so dominant.. and really they did it without a support system. These are the kinds of athletes that should have been targeted AS QBs rather than pure pocket passers. Could you imagine how good guys like Tebow and Vick would be if they had been embraced by the football system as QBs early on rather than having to fight it to get where they are?

Not sure if it will be shown in the Tebow Documentary, to be aired on Jan 6th on ESPN, but last night on ESPN, they took quite a while showing Tebow's throwing motion in college, vs his throwing motion now - totally different now than before. You may want to tune in and watch it. Also, Tebow was one of 4 college QBs Gruden worked with last offseason - must have been a reason he was working with Tebow.

[MacGruder]

Not sure if it will be shown in the Tebow Documentary, to be aired on Jan 6th on ESPN, but last night on ESPN, they took quite a while showing Tebow's throwing motion in college, vs his throwing motion now - totally different now than before. You may want to tune in and watch it. Also, Tebow was one of 4 college QBs Gruden worked with last offseason - must have been a reason he was working with Tebow.

I don't think you understand my points. I realize Tebow has changed his motion.. but that is really more for LONG TERM success.. at the expense of his present success.

Mike Holmgren who coached Favre and Steve Young said he wasn't even sure Tebow needed to change his motion. Tim has a very similar motion to Brett Favre.. that should really be the end of the throwing motion debate.

The reason Tebow looked so bad in the Senior Bowl was because he was changing everything about the way he played and tried to play a game right at the beginning of that process. The same is happening now as well. Tebow trying to use conventional mechanics and play a conventional style is likely inhibiting him not helping him.

[tripleoption]

How do you know it was the delivery and not some other aspect of his game or talent or your team holding him back?

Dude, I'm talking about this from the perspective of a BRONCOS fan. My team is NOT the Browns. I'm giving Kosar credit for how he played against the Broncos in those AFC title games even though he wasn't the prototypical passer. Those were a couple of very good Browns teams. Seeing you have only only have a couple of posts you're forgiven :D Welcome to the boards :welcome:

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I don't think you understand my points. I realize Tebow has changed his motion.. but that is really more for LONG TERM success.. at the expense of his present success.

Mike Holmgren who coached coached Favre and Steve Young said he wasn't even sure you needed to change Tebow's motion. Tebow has a very similar motion to Brett Favre.. that should really be the end of the throwing motion debate.

The reason Tebow looked so bad in the Senior Bowl was because he was changing everything about the way he played and tried to play a game right at the beginning of that process. The same is happening now as well. Tebow trying to use conventional mechanics and play a conventional style is likely inhibiting him not helping him.

What they pointed out last night was how different his release point was now, vs college. Not sure about you, but if there are things that can be done to improve Tebow - to adapt to the NFL, from college - I'm all for it.

[MacGruder]

What they pointed out last night was how different his release point was now, vs college. Not sure about you, but if there are things that can be done to improve Tebow - to adapt to the NFL, from college - I'm all for it.

Actually, not to be nitpicky, but it is where he is holding the ball that is changing, not his release point. And again.. Favre did the exact same thing.

It's really a product of Tebow's mobility more than anything. If you are moving around with the ball you are going to carry it at a position where you would if you were a runner. That is why he brings the ball low.. so instead he is going to be carrying the ball up high while running? Then that slows his release down while on the move.. it's really a joke.

This is why guys who don't play the game or understand how these changes they make impact the player. The game is changing.. players like Tebow are the ones breaking this new ground. Not these boneheads that think they understand how the position should be played yet couldn't play it themselves.

It's like some small minded painting teacher from a classical school telling pre fame Picasso the objects in his paintings don't look realistic so no one will recognize them. haha Truly.. that is what it is like.

[MacGruder]

Dude, I'm talking about this from the perspective of a BRONCOS fan. My team is NOT the Browns. I'm giving Kosar credit for how he played against the Broncos in those AFC title games even though he wasn't the prototypical passer. Those were a couple of very good Browns teams. Seeing you have only only have a couple of posts you're forgiven :D Welcome to the boards :welcome:

Thanks fro the welcome sorry. Misunderstanding! :beer:

[tripleoption]

Thanks fro the welcome sorry. Misunderstanding! :beer:

It's all good.

[zbeg]

This is why guys who don't play the game or understand how these changes they make impact the player. The game is changing.. players like Tebow are the ones breaking this new ground. Not these boneheads that think they understand how the position should be played yet couldn't play it themselves.


I'm tired of these bonehead guys who can't play the position saying that Tim Tebow has to fix his mechanics, like Steve Young and Trent Dilfer. What idiots. What does Steve Young know about quarterback mechanics or having an elongated release?

You know who else is an idiot? Physics, that's who! How many Lombardi trophies have physics won? NONE, THAT'S HOW MANY.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=5118225

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I'm tired of these bonehead guys who can't play the position saying that Tim Tebow has to fix his mechanics, like Steve Young and Trent Dilfer. What idiots. What does Steve Young know about quarterback mechanics or having an elongated release?

You know who else is an idiot? Physics, that's who! How many Lombardi trophies have physics won? NONE, THAT'S HOW MANY.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=5118225

Thanks for posting that espn video - that is some of what they showed last night.

[zbeg]

Thanks for posting that espn video - that is some of what they showed last night.

Yeah, I've got that one bookmarked. I really liked them translating why the release is important in that it creates two feet of protection just by throwing the ball differently. Sports science is a really really cool show.

The Ndamukong Suh one is also quite good. I have a man-crush on him*, and the science behind Suh and what he's doing to the poor quarterbacks and running backs in the NFC is really neat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBNo1jj1h54 (part 1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH5sb320kaw (part 2)

*Incidentally, Suh crushes men. Coincidence?

[MacGruder]

I'm tired of these bonehead guys who can't play the position saying that Tim Tebow has to fix his mechanics, like Steve Young and Trent Dilfer. What idiots. What does Steve Young know about quarterback mechanics or having an elongated release?

You know who else is an idiot? Physics, that's who! How many Lombardi trophies have physics won? NONE, THAT'S HOW MANY.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=5118225

Michael Jordan drafted Kwame Brown..

Just because you played the sport doesn't make you an authority. Many of these players don't even understand what made them successful. Trent Dilfer.. lol

Steve Young has said Tebow appears to have the ability to revolutionize the position.

Again.. the guy who developed Steve Young AND Brett Favre said he didn't even know you had to change Tebow's mechanics.. and they haven't even changed his motion. Just where he holds the ball and starts his motion.

Tebow just did it to show he was willing to do whatever it took to be a success.

[MacGruder]

Yeah, I've got that one bookmarked. I really liked them translating why the release is important in that it creates two feet of protection just by throwing the ball differently. Sports science is a really really cool show.


How much time does it create for a QB in the pocket when he has the ability to run like a Tebow or Vick?

But let's keep in mind that we have never seen players like Tebow and Vick in the NFL before...

[zbeg]

How much time does it create for a QB in the pocket when he has the ability to run like a Tebow or Vick?

But let's keep in mind that we have never seen players like Tebow and Vick in the NFL before...

Steve Young, Kordell Stewart, Vince Young. VY is more athletic than Tebow. But his mechanics suck, and he's a middle-of-the-road-kind-of quarterback who completes 11 passes a game for 180 yards.

That's exactly the kind of attitude that has limited Vince Young. "I was awesome in college, why are you limiting me?" Because what you did in college works against slower defenders, and that's fine and all, but isn't going to work in the NFL if you want to be an elite quarterback. And how long did it take Vick to figure out that he had to work on his mechanics? This is the first year he's been truly elite; before, he was a guy who looked to run and was only a so-so passer.

You're crazy if you think that Tebow could just keep his game as is from Florida and be successful in the NFL. That's delusional. To a man, nobody thought that was true. The best you can find is one person saying "I'm not sure," when during the interview he was clearly trying not to give up any information before the draft and giving milquetoast answers. The question wasn't "can Tebow succeed with his current mechanics?" it was, "can he ever fix them in order to be successful?"

The answer appears to be that he can, and is, but it's ludicrous to think that you could just import a college Tim Tebow and he'd be running and passing all over NFL defenses. He'd be completing a lot of passes to defensive backs, though - so there's that.

[Dreadnought]

How much time does it create for a QB in the pocket when he has the ability to run like a Tebow or Vick?

But let's keep in mind that we have never seen players like Tebow and Vick in the NFL before...

I disagree. Tobin Rote, Steve Grogan, Bobby Douglass, Randall Cunningham, on and on...Vick and Tebow aren't that unique style-wise. It remains to be seen if the QB position can be "revolutionized.' I firmly believe it won't be. I do thank that Tebow can play in this league, that complaints about his mechanics are silly, and that he has the heart, physical tools, and work ethic to adapt his game as needed. Mobility in a QB is a great tool - even more is escapability - but eventually a successful QB will have to adapt his game to include a good portion of conventional pocket passing, or rather, they will have to if they want a career lasting longer than most RB's. I see no reason Tebow can't do it

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I disagree. Tobin Rote, Steve Grogan, Bobby Douglass, Randall Cunningham, on and on...Vick and Tebow aren't that unique style-wise. It remains to be seen if the QB position can be "revolutionized.' I firmly believe it won't be. I do thank that Tebow can play in this league, that complaints about his mechanics are silly, and that he has the heart, physical tools, and work ethic to adapt his game as needed. Mobility in a QB is a great tool - even more is escapability - but eventually a successful QB will have to adapt his game to include a good portion of conventional pocket passing, or rather, they will have to if they want a career lasting longer than most RB's. I see no reason Tebow can't do it

Perfect description of #7

[MacGruder]

Steve Young, Kordell Stewart, Vince Young. VY is more athletic than Tebow. But his mechanics suck, and he's a middle-of-the-road-kind-of quarterback who completes 11 passes a game for 180 yards.

Vince Young is almost 6'6 and weighs the same amount as Tebow.. and Tebow is probably twice as strong from what I have heard.. Vince Young was running out of bounds and avoiding contact in highschool while Tebow was taking them head on against the toughest defenses in the SEC.

These are the kinds of inaccurate generalities I am talking about. Tebow is also no slouch in the speed department. He may not be the fastest guy.. BUT for his size and tremendous power his is very mobile and INCREDIBLY agile. Tebow is MUCH more rare than Vince.. AND Tebow was also twice the passer and this was against far tougher defenses than Vince faced.

So this supports what I have been saying all along. If Vince could have the success he did in the NFL how can you possibly doubt Tebow? People act like Vince had the superior college career to Tebow when it was the other way around.. and dramatically so. All this because Vince "looks" more like a QB.. it's easy to "look" like a real QB when you are facing poor defenses. Not unlike Andrew Luck in the PAC10.


That's exactly the kind of attitude that has limited Vince Young. "I was awesome in college, why are you limiting me?" Because what you did in college works against slower defenders, and that's fine and all, but isn't going to work in the NFL if you want to be an elite quarterback.

Tebow is facing all the guys who are in the NFL in college.. yes he is facing more of them.. but he himself also has more talent around him on offense too. No one is saying he doesn't have to work.. they ALL do.. so why is Tebow being questioned more when he was more successful than guys who are successes in the pros? facing tougher D than most too.


And how long did it take Vick to figure out that he had to work on his mechanics? This is the first year he's been truly elite; before, he was a guy who looked to run and was only a so-so passer.

But Tebow has had that approach since day one.. I honestly think Vick being in jail watching and hearing about Tebow may have made him realize what he could have been had he had Tim's approach. Tebow as also way more committed and dominated in college unlike anyone we have ever seen.. including Vick.


You're crazy if you think that Tebow could just keep his game as is from Florida and be successful in the NFL. That's delusional.

Now you are making a straw man argument.. I never said he shouldn't change or improve.. but what I am saying is that doing it is hurting him.. not helping him as you claim. In the long run it WILL make him even greater.. but don't act like he wasn't great and couldn't already play without it. He is so talented he could get by on sheer talent for a long time. He has to get by on that now even more BECAUSE he has to make up for the damage it does to him to change his fundamentals.


To a man, nobody thought that was true. The best you can find is one person saying "I'm not sure," when during the interview he was clearly trying not to give up any information before the draft and giving milquetoast answers. The question wasn't "can Tebow succeed with his current mechanics?" it was, "can he ever fix them in order to be successful?"


Brett Favre has the same motion.. so again.. I don't know what you are talking about.. where are you getting this? Kiper and McShay? Who else? D1? They make a living off this silliness.



The answer appears to be that he can, and is, but it's ludicrous to think that you could just import a college Tim Tebow and he'd be running and passing all over NFL defenses. He'd be completing a lot of passes to defensive backs, though - so there's that.

That is what he is doing.. Tebow never had problems with his accuracy or play.. the only thing it affects his how quick he gets the ball out.. and he has been running around a lot and scrambling instead of in the pocket.. so what is your point?

Again.. I don't mean to insult you.. or anyone else that was critical of Tebow. I am just trying to show that this is inaccurate. people that act like Tebow wasn't a good player in college are deluding themselves. This didn't happen overnight because of some NFL Qb coaching.. LOL This is god given ability. I suggest you guys watch ALL Tebow's college games and you will likely have a better understanding. Then look at how the teams Tebow faced completely dominated college football.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

No one on here is being critical of Tebow - however, no QB in NFL history has entered the NFL as the perfect QB - i.e. - needing no adjustment from their college ways. Just listen to the players in the NFL - every one of them says how different, how much more competitive,the NFL is than college football.

[MacGruder]

I disagree. Tobin Rote, Steve Grogan, Bobby Douglass

So then why aren't these guys used in the modern game? Why did people say Tebow revolutionized the college game? Why weren't Qbs running like Tebow before him and they all seem to be now?

Why did Steve Young say both Vick and Tebow are revolutionizing the game -- and he was a running Qb himself?


, Randall Cunningham, on and on...Vick and Tebow aren't that unique style-wise. It remains to be seen if the QB position can be "revolutionized.' I firmly believe it won't be.

Why do you feel that way? From my perspective it is how you look at it.. it's not so much that running Qbs are so much more successful than in the past.. it is that pocket QBs are not built for this era. Pocket passing is a system.. it's a very contrived system.. and we have athletic parity now that removes the edge offenses had in the past and is getting QBs mangles. Unless you have Bill Belichick as your coach who happens to be a genius.. or the perfect pieces around you to make it work. And even then Tom Brady lost to Eli manning...


I do thank that Tebow can play in this league, that complaints about his mechanics are silly, and that he has the heart, physical tools, and work ethic to adapt his game as needed. Mobility in a QB is a great tool - even more is escapability - but eventually a successful QB will have to adapt his game to include a good portion of conventional pocket passing, or rather, they will have to if they want a career lasting longer than most RB's. I see no reason Tebow can't do it

But this is where Tebow is unique.. incredibly unique.. I think Tebow running is safer than any other QB in the pocket.. because Tebow is so durable.. AND because the pocket is so dangerous. Would you rather have a concussion in the pocket or a bruise from running.

Another thing I want to clear up is that people are wrong to pretend Tebow is a running QB.. he really isn't. what makes Tebow so good foremost is his passing ability. This OPENS his running. not the other way around.

It's funny though because you have 2 camps of people that say either Tebow cant run or cant pass.

If you think about is though you have to realize what is going on..if Tebow was JUST a runner then you could take ANY runner and make them as successful as Tebow in college. So he has to have some special ability to pass the ball.. especially because he isn't THAT great of a runner..

It was really Tebow's passing that opened his running in college. Teams would focus on stopping his pass game so much it opened the run. This is why he was so underrated as a passer. He didn't even have decent runners around him.. so his running was underrated while th e runners around him were overrated.

[MacGruder]

No one on here is being critical of Tebow - however, no QB in NFL history has entered the NFL as the perfect QB - i.e. - needing no adjustment from their college ways. Just listen to the players in the NFL - every one of them says how different, how much more competitive,the NFL is than college football.



I realize you guys aren't criticizing him now.. I am just saying he should have never been criticized or devalued as a prospect because of minor issues.

Of course Tebow has things he needs to work on .. but people are saying Tebow had less of a chance of being a success than other QBs.. which is silly. Yes.. he is like other QBs.. has things to improve.. but he is also much more talented than them. He may be the most talented QB to ever enter the draft. But do you hear anyone saying that? No.. just focusing on his flaws.

Tebow had a magnifying glass on him like no one before in history AND played the toughest conference in history. His flaws were magnified like no one else before.

[zbeg]

So this supports what I have been saying all along. If Vince could have the success he did in the NFL how can you possibly doubt Tebow? People act like Vince had the superior college career to Tebow when it was the other way around.. and dramatically so. All this because Vince "looks" more like a QB.. it's easy to "look" like a real QB when you are facing poor defenses. Not unlike Andrew Luck in the PAC10.


But that's the thing - Vince hasn't been a success in the NFL. He was the third overall pick and supposed to be the Next Big Thing because the guy was athletic and could run, but he can't throw the ball worth a damn. Yeah, you can point to the win/loss record of the teams he's quarterbacked, but that has more to do with coaching, defense, and Chris Johnson. VY's good for about 15 completions and 150 yards per game on average. That's not an elite quarterback.

People seem to forget this, and they make the same mistake time and time again. A quarterback who can run but not pass effectively will never be an elite quarterback. Young is a failure so far, and has never come close to living up to his third overall pick expectations. He's shielded a little by the win/loss record of his teams, but the bottom line is that he's not a good quarterback. He's average at best, when his potential is so much more.



But Tebow has had that approach since day one.. I honestly think Vick being in jail watching and hearing about Tebow may have made him realize what he could have been had he had Tim's approach. Tebow as also way more committed and dominated in college unlike anyone we have ever seen.. including Vick.


Lol, I'm sure Vick was hanging out in jail watching Tebow and that is what made him realize that he had to work harder to be successful. I heard he also adds a drop of Tebow's blood to his breakfast shakes on gameday and that's what gives him his powers.



Now you are making a straw man argument.. I never said he shouldn't change or improve.. but what I am saying is that doing it is hurting him.. not helping him as you claim. In the long run it WILL make him even greater.. but don't act like he wasn't great and couldn't already play without it. He is so talented he could get by on sheer talent for a long time. He has to get by on that now even more BECAUSE he has to make up for the damage it does to him to change his fundamentals.


Tebow was great - as a college quarterback. And he has the potential to be a great NFL quarterback, but let's not pretend like jump passes and constantly throwing off your back foot is in any way going to be successful in the NFL. And if you look at Tebow's footwork and mechanics, his passing has much improved. He's a much much better passer NOW than he was when he was in college, and that's because he's worked on his fundamentals.

And even if not, so what if he's had a short-term setback if it means him being better in the long-term? Isn't that what you want? A long-term elite quarterback? "Getting by on talent" is what guys like Kordell Stewart and Vince Young tried, and they fell woefully short of expectations. I'm glad that Tebow didn't adopt that attitude - otherwise he absolutely would have failed.



That is what he is doing.. Tebow never had problems with his accuracy or play.. the only thing it affects his how quick he gets the ball out.. and he has been running around a lot and scrambling instead of in the pocket.. so what is your point?


My point is that being accurate against college defenses doesn't necessarily translate to the NFL unless they adapt their game. Otherwise guys like Billy Volek would have been in the hall of fame.



Again.. I don't mean to insult you.. or anyone else that was critical of Tebow. I am just trying to show that this is inaccurate. people that act like Tebow wasn't a good player in college are deluding themselves. This didn't happen overnight because of some NFL Qb coaching.. LOL This is god given ability. I suggest you guys watch ALL Tebow's college games and you will likely have a better understanding. Then look at how the teams Tebow faced completely dominated college football.

No insults taken, but you seem heavily biased (Gators fan, presumably) and don't really see the transition between college-jump-passer-who-throws-off-his-back-foot-and-doesn't-drop-back to elite NFL pocket passer who can also move around, like Steve Young.

And running quarterbacks are indeed a dime-a-dozen. Tim Tebow's physical abilities are not a unique special little flower that he's a one-of-a-kind physical prototype. That's not what sets him apart from the other dime-a-dozen running quarterbacks. What sets him apart is his leadership, work ethic, and potential to be an elite NFL passer that the other dime-a-dozen types don't have.

Leave Tebow as is (or with only minor improvements) and he'll end up being exactly as good as the detractors said he would be; a career backup and an overall failure. The guy needed to rework his game from day one, and I'm glad he's doing so. Like I said, you're the only one with this opinion - and it's really out of left field. Not a single person, scout, GM, coach, or former player-analyst has gone on record saying that beyond Holmgren saying once "I'm not sure." That's IT.

[ogplife]

Thanks for posting that espn video - that is some of what they showed last night.

Yeah it was sort of an update to that link, with his motion from his present games. People compare Tebow to Mcnair for several reasons, but rarely for their throwing motions which appear almost identical. His motion is identical to Favre to, except Favre releases it about as fast as you can from that position.

[ogplife]

Steve Young, Kordell Stewart, Vince Young. VY is more athletic than Tebow. But his mechanics suck, and he's a middle-of-the-road-kind-of quarterback who completes 11 passes a game for 180 yards.

That's exactly the kind of attitude that has limited Vince Young. "I was awesome in college, why are you limiting me?" Because what you did in college works against slower defenders, and that's fine and all, but isn't going to work in the NFL if you want to be an elite quarterback. And how long did it take Vick to figure out that he had to work on his mechanics? This is the first year he's been truly elite; before, he was a guy who looked to run and was only a so-so passer.

You're crazy if you think that Tebow could just keep his game as is from Florida and be successful in the NFL. That's delusional. To a man, nobody thought that was true. The best you can find is one person saying "I'm not sure," when during the interview he was clearly trying not to give up any information before the draft and giving milquetoast answers. The question wasn't "can Tebow succeed with his current mechanics?" it was, "can he ever fix them in order to be successful?"

The answer appears to be that he can, and is, but it's ludicrous to think that you could just import a college Tim Tebow and he'd be running and passing all over NFL defenses. He'd be completing a lot of passes to defensive backs, though - so there's that.

I think Kordell Stewart is the only person on that list more athletic than tebow and he was at least 30 pounds lighter.

[horsepig]

Yeah, that goofy motion almost kept us out of two Super Bowls and for those of us that are older Kosar was just killing us and making us chew our nails off in two AFC Championship games.

Speaking of gettin bit by a guy like that, go on back a few more years and watch some tape of "Snake" Stabler of the Raiders. All he did was win,baby.

[Sinthor]

I have a question. I've read some stuff about Tebow not being accurate. But I've watched the last two games about 5 times now. Just finished watching the Texans game 4 times. I don't see inaccuracy. Now I've seen plenty of games where even the announcers are talking about a guy being inaccurate. Orton's last game where he was dirt balling a lot of throws (I know he was hurt, just saying as an example) and many other starting out QB's that miss a lot of receivers WAY high or ball into the ground or feet to yards off to either side. I haven't seen this from Tebow yet. There was one throw in the Texans game that should have been out of bounds and didn't quite make it and was almost an INT while he was on the run, and one dirt ball. The throws into the end zone that were off were off, but I see a LOT of those throws from all kinds of QB's. Frankly I don't understand the talk about accuracy. I just don't see many BAD throws at all.

The other thing is his footwork. Now I've watched all the other Rookie QB's and starting younger QB's and I still don't see much difference between Tebow and them. Josh Freeman threw a jump pass early in the game against the Saints. A LOT of QB's throw jump passes while they're running..I don't hear them being dinged for that. Matt Ryan on the other hand seems to have made HUGE strides in footwork as I see him stop and set his feet a lot even when he's on the run.

The point is, I'm not seeing a big difference there. Anyone? Is this just another case of Tebow being picked apart because he's Tebow and others getting a free pass?

[zbeg]

I have a question. I've read some stuff about Tebow not being accurate. But I've watched the last two games about 5 times now. Just finished watching the Texans game 4 times. I don't see inaccuracy. Now I've seen plenty of games where even the announcers are talking about a guy being inaccurate. Orton's last game where he was dirt balling a lot of throws (I know he was hurt, just saying as an example) and many other starting out QB's that miss a lot of receivers WAY high or ball into the ground or feet to yards off to either side. I haven't seen this from Tebow yet. There was one throw in the Texans game that should have been out of bounds and didn't quite make it and was almost an INT while he was on the run, and one dirt ball. The throws into the end zone that were off were off, but I see a LOT of those throws from all kinds of QB's. Frankly I don't understand the talk about accuracy. I just don't see many BAD throws at all.

The other thing is his footwork. Now I've watched all the other Rookie QB's and starting younger QB's and I still don't see much difference between Tebow and them. Josh Freeman threw a jump pass early in the game against the Saints. A LOT of QB's throw jump passes while they're running..I don't hear them being dinged for that. Matt Ryan on the other hand seems to have made HUGE strides in footwork as I see him stop and set his feet a lot even when he's on the run.

The point is, I'm not seeing a big difference there. Anyone? Is this just another case of Tebow being picked apart because he's Tebow and others getting a free pass?

The question wasn't if he was inaccurate against the Texans. The inaccuracy concerns come from the way he threw the ball in college, and how that won't translate to the NFL game. Look at the way he threw in Florida, then try to overlay that against NFL defenses, and it doesn't look good.

But I think universally everyone thinks he played well against the Texans. Some people (probably correctly) are tempering it with the fact that it was against a historically bad defense, but he did play well against said bad defense.

[Dzone]

Overall, how did Tebow do against San Diego today?

[zbeg]

Overall, how did Tebow do against San Diego today?

He looked like a talented rookie. Some bad decisions, some poor throws mixed in with a lot of good throws and decision. Rookie with a ton of upside, but still a rookie.

[BroncoStud]

I disagree. Tobin Rote, Steve Grogan, Bobby Douglass, Randall Cunningham, on and on...Vick and Tebow aren't that unique style-wise. It remains to be seen if the QB position can be "revolutionized.' I firmly believe it won't be. I do thank that Tebow can play in this league, that complaints about his mechanics are silly, and that he has the heart, physical tools, and work ethic to adapt his game as needed. Mobility in a QB is a great tool - even more is escapability - but eventually a successful QB will have to adapt his game to include a good portion of conventional pocket passing, or rather, they will have to if they want a career lasting longer than most RB's. I see no reason Tebow can't do it

Hell, Roger Staubach ran the option at Navy before he won Super Bowls with the Dallas Cowboys. Frank Tarketon ran all over the place to 4 Super Bowl appearances with the Vikings, back when they played like men, outside. Steve Young is the highest rated NFL QB of all-time...

They ALL developed because they learned to be a pocket pass who could run. If Tebow works hard enough on his pocket presence and accuracy then there is no reason he can't excel.