Really, Orton?

[broncobryce]

This board coulda used that reasoning when McDaniels was hired. Many folks saw him as a sure thing.:laugh:

Proof please, or it didn't happen.

[broncobryce]

Especially third down conversion rate. When you have 2nd and 11, then have to conver that consistently when defense knows they don't have to respect the run, it's going to make your third down conversion rate very poor. Consistently having to throw on 2nd and 3rd and long is tough for any quarterback. Even if you complete a pass on 2nd down to make it 3rd and short, the run game can't convert those third and shorts, which further hurts the 3rd down %.

Not having a run game hurts the team in a lot of areas, but third down % is where it's the most conspicuous.



He's as close to a sure thing as a sure thing gets.

The same thing has been said about many busts in the NFL.

[atwater27]

Proof please, or it didn't happen.

You got the "Please" part right.:coffee:

[Benetto]

http://dubsism.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/orton-riding-jd-bottle.jpg?w=309&h=299

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Once again, Orton chose class over controversy. I have absolutely no problem with what he said or how he said it. Nobody should have to feign happiness or false support for a teammate. He lost his job when he thinks he's ready to play and I understand why that disappoints him.

He earned the starting job out of training camp, but likewise he deserved to get the hook after his poor performances vs KC and Arizona, injured or not. I understand why he feels the way he does, but I do believe he has nobody to blame for it but himself. Doesn't mean he has to be happy about it, either. I think by not making waves or making snide comments and just taking the "no comment" approach, he's still being classy.

My advice for Kyle, no matter where he ends up, is to actually do what is necessary to improve his game. RUN to improve your scrambling and speed, LIFT to work on your strength and escapability and arm strength, WORK ON YOUR THROWS to improve your accuracy and practice throwing on the run, don't just stay the same guy and act like it's good enough. To me, that's been Orton's biggest problem. He's been the same guy every season. He's never shown that willingness to be anything more than he is. He's not any bigger, stronger, faster, or more accurate than he was in Chicago. His current skill set has been proven over and over to NOT BE GOOD ENOUGH. Why don't you try to fix it, Kyle?

[BroncoStud]

There's no question that Orton was not nearly as good last year as he was this year. I don't think anyone's saying that Orton 2009 was better than Cutler 2008, or even that Orton 2010 is better than Cutler 20anything. However, that's not the debate. The debate is whether or not Orton's play has been a liability or an asset for the Denver offense this season.

Let's look at the 2010 numbers, since that's the season in question.

2010: Denver total defense - 387.1 YPG.
2010: Denver rushing yards 1398 (pro-rated to 1491).

And yes, having a bad running game lowers the team's third down %, regardless of the QB's quality. Let's look at Orton 2010, since that's what we're talking about - Orton 2010. Not Orton 2010 or Orton 2007 or Orton 1972. Has Orton been an asset this season? Absolutely yes.





I agree that earlier in Orton's career, he was not particularly good. He has made a significant leap to being a quality NFL passer this year, however.



Being benched for Grossman is largely irrelevant since we're talking about Orton's progress and his breakthrough season this season.

And you realize Orton is hurt, right? That's why Tebow started. That's not getting benched. That's being injured. Otherwise Tom Brady was benched for Matt Cassel, or Aaron Rodgers was benched for Matt Flynn, or Ben Roethlisberger was benched for Charlie Batch and Dennis Dixon, or John Elway was benched for Tommy Maddox.

Orton is hurt? Do I need to pull up Orton's OWN quote the day following his being placed on the injury report where he says "I'm fine, I was throwing the ball 70 yards in practice..." Orton is no more hurt than Tebow is, he got benched because he was playing horribly and the Bowlen was facing losing a lot of attendance with him at QB.

And amazingly, Orton's 3rd down coversions are MUCH worse in 2010 than they wrere in 2009. He's around 31%, it doesn't get much worse than that over 14 games.

In Chicago, Forte had a great season yet Orton's offense still couldn't convert on 3rd down, that's why the fans finally turned on him. They turned on him here for the same reason, he's terrible when it counts.

I'm not blaming all the losses on Orton, but he certainly isn't helping the team win games. He lost the Chiefs game, he lost the Cardinals game, no doubt about it, his play was so bad it lost the Broncos the game. Before that there were many games where he had pleny of opportunity to extend drives and make plays to win games, he didn't. He lacks the ability to do so.

This is the dumbest debate in the NFL. Peyton Manning has the NFL's worst run game, not Kyle Orton, yet Manning is leading his team to the playoffs with a win today and Orton is sulking on the bench. It's a joke that people still defend this guy, he should have NEVER been a Bronco, McDumbass might have his job today if he didn't trade Cutler.

[topscribe]

Orton is hurt? Do I need to pull up Orton's OWN quote the day following his being placed on the injury report where he says "I'm fine, I was throwing the ball 70 yards in practice..." Orton is no more hurt than Tebow is, he got benched because he was playing horribly and the Bowlen was facing losing a lot of attendance with him at QB.

And amazingly, Orton's 3rd down coversions are MUCH worse in 2010 than they wrere in 2009. He's around 31%, it doesn't get much worse than that over 14 games.

In Chicago, Forte had a great season yet Orton's offense still couldn't convert on 3rd down, that's why the fans finally turned on him. They turned on him here for the same reason, he's terrible when it counts.

I'm not blaming all the losses on Orton, but he certainly isn't helping the team win games. He lost the Chiefs game, he lost the Cardinals game, no doubt about it, his play was so bad it lost the Broncos the game. Before that there were many games where he had pleny of opportunity to extend drives and make plays to win games, he didn't. He lacks the ability to do so.

This is the dumbest debate in the NFL. Peyton Manning has the NFL's worst run game, not Kyle Orton, yet Manning is leading his team to the playoffs with a win today and Orton is sulking on the bench. It's a joke that people still defend this guy, he should have NEVER been a Bronco, McDumbass might have his job today if he didn't trade Cutler.

It is a joke that you work so hard to try to prove Orton "sucks." Do you put
that kind of effort out on your job? I hope so.

It's amazing how many times your arguments get shot down, yet you come
back and continually revive the disproven arguments.

And no, Peyton does not have the league's worst running game. Indy has
averaged 3.8 YPA in rushing, whereas Denver averaged 1.7 until the second
KC game.

-----

[BroncoStud]

It is a joke that you work so hard to try to prove Orton "sucks." Do you put
that kind of effort out on your job? I hope so.

It's amazing how many times your arguments get shot down, yet you come
back and continually revive the disproven arguments.

And no, Peyton does not have the league's worst running game. Indy has
averaged 3.8 YPA in rushing, whereas Denver averaged 1.7 until the second
KC game.

-----

Why don't you go by yardage? Check that one out TOP. Oh, by the way, when has even ONE of my arguments been "shot down"? I've shown exactly why Orton was benched/traded from Chicago and he he was bench and soon to be traded from here... He sucks on 3rd down and in the redzone, he has sucked since day 1 as a pro.

Like I said, it's a GOOD day in Denver knowing we have a shot at a real QB, whether it be Tebow, Luck, or someone else, it's going to be a big upgrade over Orton, who won't be on the roster next season - I'm happy.

Good luck to Orton wherever he goes, but I feel bad for those fans.

[topscribe]

Why don't you go by yardage? Check that one out TOP. Oh, by the way, when has even ONE of my arguments been "shot down"? I've shown exactly why Orton was benched/traded from Chicago and he he was bench and soon to be traded from here... He sucks on 3rd down and in the redzone, he has sucked since day 1 as a pro.

Like I said, it's a GOOD day in Denver knowing we have a shot at a real QB, whether it be Tebow, Luck, or someone else, it's going to be a big upgrade over Orton, who won't be on the roster next season - I'm happy.

Good luck to Orton wherever he goes, but I feel bad for those fans.

I was speaking generically on arguments getting shot down. You haven't been
here long enough to see all my analyses and reports. I used to post volumes
of that stuff, but doing it over and over again for late-comers gets boring
and, frankly, is a waste of time.

And all you have shown regarding Orton's days at Chicago is that you know
very little about it.

But total yardage is a bad indicator of anything. Total yardage depends
greatly on they type of offensive scheme being run. The most telling
statistic is YPA (Yards Per Attempt) -- in other words, how successful is a
run (or a pass) each time it is attempted. That is why I did not go by the
total yardage.

-----

[BroncoStud]

I was speaking generically on arguments getting shot down. You haven't been
here long enough to see all my analyses and reports. I used to post volumes
of that stuff, but doing it over and over again for late-comers gets boring
and, frankly, is a waste of time.

And all you have shown regarding Orton's days at Chicago is that you know
very little about it.

But total yardage is a bad indicator of anything. Total yardage depends
greatly on they type of offensive scheme being run. The most telling
statistic is YPA (Yards Per Attempt) -- in other words, how successful is a
run (or a pass) each time it is attempted. That is why I did not go by the
total yardage.

-----

TOP, I've been here since about 2006, I used to post here quite often before the board got upgraded and moved servers when I got lazy and just lurked.

I've read many of your analysis, which is why I know you understand and are well versed in football, which is why this debate is all the more perplexing because your blind defense of Orton is not logical, is not supported by anything other than emotion.

It's like Stockholm Syndrome, it seems you've defended him so long you are a captor to defending him...

[topscribe]

TOP, I've been here since about 2006, I used to post here quite often before the board got upgraded and moved servers when I got lazy and just lurked.

I've read many of your analysis, which is why I know you understand and are well versed in football, which is why this debate is all the more perplexing because your blind defense of Orton is not logical, is not supported by anything other than emotion.

It's like Stockholm Syndrome, it seems you've defended him so long you are a captor to defending him...

I present statistics, facts, and personal observations. I do not present blind
defenses. But your assessment of how I post should be a sign of how you
represent Orton or any other player on the board. It ruins your credibility.

Best you stick to your own jaded ideas about Orton and not comment on
how I post.

-----

[Tned]

Orton is hurt? Do I need to pull up Orton's OWN quote the day following his being placed on the injury report where he says "I'm fine, I was throwing the ball 70 yards in practice..." Orton is no more hurt than Tebow is, he got benched because he was playing horribly and the Bowlen was facing losing a lot of attendance with him at QB.


Are you being intentionally dishonest or was it an accident?

You left off the part (replaced with ...) where Orton said he doesn't have a dead arm. Further, you left out the part where he said "LAST WEEK". The actual quote was "“I was throwing the ball 70 yards in practice last week. I don’t have a dead arm."

He didn't say he threw the ball 70 yards the week he was hurt and put on the injury report, but instead said he threw the long ball prior to the game he got hurt.

I assume you copied the quote from someone else, and therefore didn't intentionally distort what he said.

[BroncoStud]

Are you being intentionally dishonest or was it an accident?

You left off the part (replaced with ...) where Orton said he doesn't have a dead arm. Further, you left out the part where he said "LAST WEEK". The actual quote was "“I was throwing the ball 70 yards in practice last week. I don’t have a dead arm."

He didn't say he threw the ball 70 yards the week he was hurt and put on the injury report, but instead said he threw the long ball prior to the game he got hurt.

I assume you copied the quote from someone else, and therefore didn't intentionally distort what he said.

I missed that in the quote, but does that mean Orton wasn't hurt for the KC game like TOP is claiming? The "last week" would have been the practice leading up to the Arizona game, which means he was throwing just fine for KC and Arizona until the end of the game when he was on the sideline after that hit cringing a bit.

So it appears that Orton was probably injured in the 4th quarter of the Arizona game?

[Juriga72]

I present statistics, facts, and personal observations. I do not present blind
defenses. But your assessment of how I post should be a sign of how you
represent Orton or any other player on the board. It ruins your credibility.

Best you stick to your own jaded ideas about Orton and not comment on
how I post.

-----

The biggest stat this year is 3-10.... THATS Kyle's record. THAT is not good.

His third down qb rating is one of the lowest in the NFL
His "Close game qb rating" is one of the lowest in the NFL....

Our punt totals tho...... they do put us in the top 10!!!

As for his injury, the excuse LAST year was his ankle boo-boo..JUST like in 2008 "He was one of the leading QB's until he hurt his ankle".....THIS year its..."He was one of the best ever!!!! until he got hurt"... see a pattern?

Face it ...he's fragile and he's not going to be here much longer.

Stat wise his record here is 11-18.......find someway to explain that. he was the quarterback for the worst stretch of football in Bronco history.

[powderaddict]

I present statistics, facts, and personal observations. I do not present blind
defenses. But your assessment of how I post should be a sign of how you
represent Orton or any other player on the board. It ruins your credibility.

Best you stick to your own jaded ideas about Orton and not comment on
how I post.

-----

I love the statistics presented in this post, and how you stayed on topic instead of discussing the other posters "credibility" and how "jaded" he is :lol:

Orton got Orton benched. Plain and simple.

[topscribe]

I missed that in the quote, but does that mean Orton wasn't hurt for the KC game like TOP is claiming? The "last week" would have been the practice leading up to the Arizona game, which means he was throwing just fine for KC and Arizona until the end of the game when he was on the sideline after that hit cringing a bit.

So it appears that Orton was probably injured in the 4th quarter of the Arizona game?

Orton injured his shoulder in the SF game. He suffered the first rib injury in
the St. Louis game, and the second in the KC game.

-----

[topscribe]

I love the statistics presented in this post, and how you stayed on topic instead of discussing the other posters "credibility" and how "jaded" he is :lol:

Orton got Orton benched. Plain and simple.

I'm glad you appreciate it so much.

However, that does not dismiss your gross misrepresentation of what I said.
I did not call the poster jaded: I referred to his argument. And I referred to
how a certain portion of his argument could damage his credibility, not his
credibility in general as a person.

Try to be honest with your next post.

-----

[Tned]

I missed that in the quote, but does that mean Orton wasn't hurt for the KC game like TOP is claiming? The "last week" would have been the practice leading up to the Arizona game, which means he was throwing just fine for KC and Arizona until the end of the game when he was on the sideline after that hit cringing a bit.

So it appears that Orton was probably injured in the 4th quarter of the Arizona game?

Based on what the reporters said and watching him, I would say he was banged up the last two games he played. I can't rememeber when he got the knock out blow to the ribs. I know it was in the last game he played, but I don't remember when.

He was clearly hurt. Whether or not the Broncos would have started Tebow is unknown. In my opinion, they should have started him even if Orton hadn't gotten hurt (season was over, needed to see what Tebow could do), but it is completely non-factual to say that Orton was 'benched' rather than replaced due to injury in that first game or two that Tebow played.

[topscribe]

Based on what the reporters said and watching him, I would say he was banged up the last two games he played. I can't rememeber when he got the knock out blow to the ribs. I know it was in the last game he played, but I don't remember when.

He was clearly hurt. Whether or not the Broncos would have started Tebow is unknown. In my opinion, they should have started him even if Orton hadn't gotten hurt (season was over, needed to see what Tebow could do), but it is completely non-factual to say that Orton was 'benched' rather than replaced due to injury in that first game or two that Tebow played.

I personally believe Tebow should have started in the KC game. And I most
certainly believe Orton should have been yanked after the first quarter of the
KC game. It was quite obvious, to me, anyway, that he passes were not
coming off his hand as before. He did not have the same zip and accuracy
at that point.

That is my impression, anyway . . .

-----

[BroncoStud]

Based on what the reporters said and watching him, I would say he was banged up the last two games he played. I can't rememeber when he got the knock out blow to the ribs. I know it was in the last game he played, but I don't remember when.

He was clearly hurt. Whether or not the Broncos would have started Tebow is unknown. In my opinion, they should have started him even if Orton hadn't gotten hurt (season was over, needed to see what Tebow could do), but it is completely non-factual to say that Orton was 'benched' rather than replaced due to injury in that first game or two that Tebow played.

I'm not so sure... I agree that you start the young guy regardless, but I don't remember seeing Kyle on the injury report for KC or Arizona... I don't remember hearing much about any soreness after the KC game... In my opinion, this is probably a combination of him being sore and him being benched. If he's throwing just fine in practice why would it be any different on Sundays?

[EMB6903]

Orton injured his shoulder in the SF game. He suffered the first rib injury in
the St. Louis game, and the second in the KC game.

-----

What was his excuse before that?

Kyle sucked all year in my opinion. Passing yards are vastly over-rated. Kyle couldnt get it done on 3rd down conversions and looked lost once inside the 20's. and worst of all he quit when times got rough..

[BroncoStud]

Orton injured his shoulder in the SF game. He suffered the first rib injury in
the St. Louis game, and the second in the KC game.

-----

When and where was this disclosed?

[topscribe]

What was his excuse before that?

Kyle sucked all year in my opinion. Passing yards are vastly over-rated. Kyle couldnt get it done on 3rd down conversions and looked lost once inside the 20's. and worst of all he quit when times got rough..

What was his excuse before that? Oh, just #2 in the league in total yardage,
#2 in YPC, #2 in the league according to DVOA, #6 in the league according
to DYAR, 62% comp ratio, 95 QBR.

And your continued allusion to third downs has been thoroughly explained a
long time ago. In fact, I talked about that this morning . . . again. You
might go back and review, in case you missed it.

-----

[topscribe]

When and where was this disclosed?

It's of record. Do some research. Like I did.

I'm out of here. Gotta work.

-----

[Tned]

I'm not so sure... I agree that you start the young guy regardless, but I don't remember seeing Kyle on the injury report for KC or Arizona... I don't remember hearing much about any soreness after the KC game... In my opinion, this is probably a combination of him being sore and him being benched. If he's throwing just fine in practice why would it be any different on Sundays?

Again, he wasn't "injured" and unable to practice until the week before the Oakland game. That's the week that the beat reporters said that he was clearly having trouble even jogging and couldn't throw the ball. That's what they witnessed with their eyes during multiple practices that week.

Prior to that, it was clear to me and the beat reporters that he was banged up and it was effecting his play.

I'm not an Orton apologist like some around here, and I'm not defending Orton. He's failed to get the job done at key times in the game pretty much since he came to Denver.

However, it's just not accurate for anyone to claim the injury was 'made up' so that they could start Tebow. It's simply ludicrous when people claim that.

[EMB6903]

What was his excuse before that? Oh, just #2 in the league in total yardage,
#2 in YPC, #2 in the league according to DVOA, #6 in the league according
to DYAR, 62% comp ratio, 95 QBR.

And your continued allusion to third downs has been thoroughly explained a
long time ago. In fact, I talked about that this morning . . . again. You
might go back and review, in case you missed it.

-----

No need to bring out the pointless stats...

JUST WATCH THE GAME.

[Mike]

Orton is the man. If it wasn't for the injury and the Broncos lack of talent he would have led the team to the playoffs this year. He's invaluable to the Broncos and will lead them with exceptional leadership skills next year. Any team would be lucky to have a QB like Orton. He is a difference maker...look at his stats from before his injury.

You hear that SF, Mia, Minn, Sea, Car, Jax, Cincy, Wash, Az, Buf?

[topscribe]

Orton is the man. If it wasn't for the injury and the Broncos lack of talent he would have led the team to the playoffs this year. He's invaluable to the Broncos and will lead them with exceptional leadership skills next year. Any team would be lucky to have a QB like Orton. He is a difference maker...look at his stats from before his injury.

You hear that SF, Mia, Minn, Sea, Car, Jax, Cincy, Wash, Az, Buf?

You're hired! :D

-----

[BroncoStud]

Again, he wasn't "injured" and unable to practice until the week before the Oakland game. That's the week that the beat reporters said that he was clearly having trouble even jogging and couldn't throw the ball. That's what they witnessed with their eyes during multiple practices that week.

Prior to that, it was clear to me and the beat reporters that he was banged up and it was effecting his play.

I'm not an Orton apologist like some around here, and I'm not defending Orton. He's failed to get the job done at key times in the game pretty much since he came to Denver.

However, it's just not accurate for anyone to claim the injury was 'made up' so that they could start Tebow. It's simply ludicrous when people claim that.

Ok, I agree with that. Clearly something happened to him during the Arizona game as he was seen grimmacing in the sideline in the 4th quarter, but that certainly does not excuse his play in the KC game or 3/4 of the Arizona game, you can't discount that performance. If he isn't disclosing injuries that's on him.

Either way, there was no reason to play him once we were eliminated.