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broncofaninfla
09-09-2008, 10:27 AM
Moss was inactive last night. Not looking to good with him........

honz
09-09-2008, 10:34 AM
I don't know what is up with him. He was supposedly looking good in camp and then he was a no show in preseason and then was scratched from the game yesterday. Hopefuuly we get an explanation from Shanny today on why he was inactive.

CoachChaz
09-09-2008, 10:35 AM
If Engleberger can play like he did last night, I could care less if Moss is active. John was a monster

tubby
09-09-2008, 10:37 AM
If Engleberger can play like he did last night, I could care less if Moss is active. John was a monster

He's the one who put McFadden on his shoulder.

xzn
09-09-2008, 10:38 AM
Shanahan, in his post-game presser, said that they activated Ebeneezer "Scrooge" Ekuban instead of Jarvis because the Faiders are a "run-oriented" team. He seemed to be pretty happy with the result....

NightTrainLayne
09-09-2008, 10:43 AM
Shanahan, in his post-game presser, said that they activated Ebeneezer "Scrooge" Ekuban instead of Jarvis because the Faiders are a "run-oriented" team. He seemed to be pretty happy with the result....

Yes. Shanny said that it was a decision related to Oakland's run attack, and then he got a big shit-eating grin on his face and added, "and I think it was a pretty good decision."

Don't know what that means for Moss. I think we'll see him next week, but for how many plays and in what capacity I don't know.

broncofaninfla
09-09-2008, 10:50 AM
I would think a #1 pick would be more than just a situational guy by now. I wish we could trade him but I doubt anybody would offer anything in return for him. I hate to talk negative but he sure looks like a bust. I question his motor and heart.

WARHORSE
09-09-2008, 10:51 AM
Soon as I heard Moss was inactive, I knew it was due to Shanny wanting to focus on stopping the run. Its a good thing for Jarvis, and if he doesnt want to be deactivated, then he can respond with a hungry attitude.

Im not concerned about Moss yet. Hes young and plays a demanding position.

Buff
09-09-2008, 11:56 AM
This guy's got bust written all over him. There was just a story about how last year Shanahan had a meeting with him right before he got hurt and told him he needed to push harder in practice. In that same story, Moss says that he doesn't think he'll ever be able to put on much more weight...

He's obviously ineffective vs. the run, or we'd have him in the lineup.

I don't know what to say about Jarvis other than he better pull his head out of his ass and realize that his NFL career is passing him by.

broncofaninfla
09-09-2008, 12:08 PM
This guy's got bust written all over him. There was just a story about how last year Shanahan had a meeting with him right before he got hurt and told him he needed to push harder in practice. In that same story, Moss says that he doesn't think he'll ever be able to put on much more weight...

He's obviously ineffective vs. the run, or we'd have him in the lineup.

I don't know what to say about Jarvis other than he better pull his head out of his ass and realize that his NFL career is passing him by.

I agree. Moss looks like he is just going through the motions and drawing a check when he is on the field. I'm tired of hearing the "He's young and inexperienced" excuses when people defend him. There are too many players with less experience in the NFL who are contributing more to their teams than Moss. I'm VERY disappointed with how little he has contributed and see no reason for optimism for him in the future.

Retired_Member_001
09-09-2008, 12:11 PM
I really like Jarvis, and I think he has very high potential, but I'm starting to get worried about his health issues.

HolyDiver
09-09-2008, 12:27 PM
If Engleberger can play like he did last night, I could care less if Moss is active. John was a monster

I'm not an Engelberger fan..............But that was the best I've ever seen him play.

turftoad
09-09-2008, 02:56 PM
I really like Jarvis, and I think he has very high potential, but I'm starting to get worried about his health issues.

Health issues????

He was fine. He's just too skinny. Thats the problem.

broncofaninfla
09-11-2008, 08:59 AM
Rocky Mountian News-

Monday Night Football. National television. Season opener. Longtime division rival.
And, for Jarvis Moss, it was still an evening of disappointment.
"Yeah, I wanted to play on Monday Night Football," Moss said Wednesday. "First game of the season, that's tough to have to sit there and watch. But I'm a team player, supportive, and the team was successful and that's all that really matters."
Moss, a former first-round pick, was a game-day inactive in the Broncos' 41-14 win against the Raiders and relegated to street clothes, a conspicuous absence in the Broncos defense.
Broncos coach Mike Shanahan said since Moss has largely been in the role of rush specialist in training camp and the preseason, he lost his game-day spot when the Broncos decided they needed more bulk in the lineup against the Raiders' run game.
So that meant defensive tackle Nic Clemons was in uniform instead among the eight defensive linemen who were active for the game. Clemons appeared in the rotation up front during the game.
"I guess that's what my call was for that week," Moss said. "I was still into the game, watching, just trying to help guys as much as I could (with) what I saw out there on the field."
The Broncos on Sunday (2:15 p.m., CBS 4) face the Chargers, another run-heavy team with a big offensive line.
"This week hopefully will be different," Moss said. "I know Coach said he's going to watch and see how everybody works this week and make it a game-time decision regarding this week."
Moss was the 17th player selected in the 2007 draft - the Broncos traded up to select him - but he missed 10 games last season because of a fractured lower right leg. In his return, he has yet to elevate himself into a lot of playing time with the starters.
He has lined up in practice from time to time in a first-team nickel (five defensive backs) rush package, but it has been Elvis Dumervil and John Engelberger at the two end spots in the starting defense, and the Broncos used Ebenezer Ekuban and Tim Crowder as the backup defensive ends against the Raiders.
Crowder and Ekuban also can line up at defensive tackle in some situations, so it gives them more versatility when the Broncos are trying to decide whom to keep among the 45 players in uniform on game day.
Still, Moss said he knows what he has to do now to get on the field.
"Just work," he said. " . . . I'm trying to outwork some people, that's what I'm going to do . . . I've just got to work, I got to get better so I can get out there. I want to be out on the field on game day, and that's the only thing I'm really concerned with."
Two other players in Moss' draft class - Marcus Thomas and Ryan Harris - were in the starting lineup for the Broncos against the Raiders. The other player selected by the team that year, Crowder, was in the rotation in the defensive line.
:confused:

broncofaninfla
09-11-2008, 09:02 AM
I would love to be wrong about this but the guy looks like a bust at this point. A top twenty pick in the first round and he is only a situational player who can't even suit up? Not to mention Moss was getting schooled by 3rd Stringers in the last Pre-Season game.

omac
09-11-2008, 09:20 AM
Moss needs to hook up with Merriman's trainer ... j/k. :D

Problem with Moss is that he was picked by Bates to be the tall, speedy pass rusher from the outside in Bates scheme. He was taken specifically for that, and now that the Bates defense has been shelved, he's the odd man out.

He needs to get much, much stronger, and stouter against the run, or he won't have a place in this defense that wants to stop the run at any cost. Him saying he won't gain the weight probably made him sound like a prima-donna, and he might be in Shanny's doghouse right now. He'd better show that he has great pass-rushing skills soon, or he'll be gone, maybe traded for a low round pick.

Flatinum
09-11-2008, 09:21 AM
I know hindsight's 20/20 but wouldn't Jon Beason (picked 8 spots after Moss) look great in the Blue and Orange right now.

omac
09-11-2008, 09:34 AM
I know hindsight's 20/20 but wouldn't Jon Beason (picked 8 spots after Moss) look great in the Blue and Orange right now.

Yup, and with the 20/20 hindsight, we shouldn't have brought in Bates. Well, the good thing is we got Marcus Thomas, and he looks pretty good so far.

broncofaninfla
09-11-2008, 09:34 AM
Moss needs to hook up with Merriman's trainer ... j/k. :D

Problem with Moss is that he was picked by Bates to be the tall, speedy pass rusher from the outside in Bates scheme. He was taken specifically for that, and now that the Bates defense has been shelved, he's the odd man out.

He needs to get much, much stronger, and stouter against the run, or he won't have a place in this defense that wants to stop the run at any cost. Him saying he won't gain the weight probably made him sound like a prima-donna, and he might be in Shanny's doghouse right now. He'd better show that he has great pass-rushing skills soon, or he'll be gone, maybe traded for a low round pick.


Good point

Traveler
09-11-2008, 10:05 AM
Legwold mentioned in his inbox that Moss's problem is he only has one move when rushing the passer. If he can't by tackle on the edge, he hasn't developed any counter moves back to the inside.

My question then is, what the hell are the Dline coaches doing? Are they teaching him some counter moves? I've said it before and I'll say it again. Most of our drafted DE's never seem to get better once they are here. And that could be for a couple of reasons.

1. The guys drafted are marginal in talent
or
2. Our coaches aren't worth a damn.

In defense of Jarvis, I think he could be a major force. He was an awesome college player! But since we don't see him in practice everyday, we can only guess what is holding him back.

We should know by years end if he becomes another wasted Shanahan/Sundquist 1st round choice.

omac
09-11-2008, 11:22 AM
Legwold mentioned in his inbox that Moss's problem is he only has one move when rushing the passer. If he can't by tackle on the edge, he hasn't developed any counter moves back to the inside.

My question then is, what the hell are the Dline coaches doing? Are they teaching him some counter moves? I've said it before and I'll say it again. Most of our drafted DE's never seem to get better once they are here. And that could be for a couple of reasons.

1. The guys drafted are marginal in talent
or
2. Our coaches aren't worth a damn.

In defense of Jarvis, I think he could be a major force. He was an awesome college player! But since we don't see him in practice everyday, we can only guess what is holding him back.

We should know by years end if he becomes another wasted Shanahan/Sundquist 1st round choice.

Well, Dumerville seems to have gotten better each season, and Thomas seems to be getting better and better. Though we got Engleberger in a trade, he seems to be exceling now against the run.

Moss and Crowder, their development has been a bit on the slow side.

On the wasted Shanny/Sundquist pick ... Moss wasn't a typical Shanahan pick; in fact, last season when it seemed like he might be a good player, a lot of posters gave the credit to Bates and gave no credit to Shanny. They were saying this defensive line picks were obviously all Bates, not Shanny. Except for Thomas, because he wasn't the typical Bates DT (something to do with 2 vs. 3 technique not fitting the Bates mold), and was a character risk, so he was Shanny's pick. Now that Moss looks like he might be a bust, Shanny takes full blame. Thomas seems to be working out, so maybe he won't be Shanny's pick. :D

I understand accountability, but gotta at least balance credit when it's due (this is not aimed at you; this is in general to some posters). A lot of people didn't like the Clady and Royal picks, though they look like they're working out fine; still, some haven't yet admitted that they were good picks.

Despite the success of Jay, Brandon, Elvis, and Tony, some still say it's too early to tell if the draft was a success.

Just sayin'.

But on your original point ... ( :D sorry for the detour) .... yeah, Denver doesn't churn out great defensive lines. In an old FF magazine with IDP rankings, there were no denver linemen listed. Lucky for us, we're an offense-first team.

Traveler
09-11-2008, 11:37 AM
Well, Dumerville seems to have gotten better each season, and Thomas seems to be getting better and better. Though we got Engleberger in a trade, he seems to be exceling now against the run.

Moss and Crowder, their development has been a bit on the slow side.

On the wasted Shanny/Sundquist pick ... Moss wasn't a typical Shanahan pick; in fact, last season when it seemed like he might be a good player, a lot of posters gave the credit to Bates and gave no credit to Shanny. They were saying this defensive line picks were obviously all Bates, not Shanny. Except for Thomas, because he wasn't the typical Bates DT (something to do with 2 vs. 3 technique not fitting the Bates mold), and was a character risk, so he was Shanny's pick. Now that Moss looks like he might be a bust, Shanny takes full blame. Thomas seems to be working out, so maybe he won't be Shanny's pick. :D

I understand accountability, but gotta at least balance credit when it's due (this is not aimed at you; this is in general to some posters). A lot of people didn't like the Clady and Royal picks, though they look like they're working out fine; still, some haven't yet admitted that they were good picks.

Despite the success of Jay, Brandon, Elvis, and Tony, some still say it's too early to tell if the draft was a success.

Just sayin'.

But on your original point ... ( :D sorry for the detour) .... yeah, Denver doesn't churn out great defensive lines. In an old FF magazine with IDP rankings, there were no denver linemen listed. Lucky for us, we're an offense-first team.

Good points. Just a quick note on Dumervil. When he came into the league, it was noted that even for his size, he had multiple pass rush moves to include a bullrush. Jarvis didn't. That's why Elvis is succeeding as a pass rusher. He has he ability to change up. Jarvis hasn't shown he can do that...yet.


As for the Shanahan/Sundquist choices, I listed them both since they are/were the only two that had much say in our draft choices. Sundquist may or may not be more responsible for our crappy draft record. We'll never know. Nevertheless, the ultimate success or failure of our choices falls to Shanahan since he has the last say.

IMO, i still think our DL coaches should be replaced.

jhns
09-11-2008, 11:49 AM
Despite the success of Jay, Brandon, Elvis, and Tony, some still say it's too early to tell if the draft was a success.


Lets not forget Kuper. He is a great player and between him, Clady, and Harris(maybe) we look to have drafted a great o-line to keep Cutler standing tall. Everyone seems to foget that we got Kuper in that class (or at least they always leave him out).

56crash
09-11-2008, 11:49 AM
I don't know what is up with him. He was supposedly looking good in camp and then he was a no show in preseason and then was scratched from the game yesterday. Hopefuuly we get an explanation from Shanny today on why he was inactive.

Well you got your explanation from Shanny ...! he cannot stop the run... might I add shanny was smiling from ear to ear that he made the right choice

Requiem / The Dagda
09-11-2008, 11:52 AM
Bust. Trading up for him was even more stupid.

56crash
09-11-2008, 12:04 PM
Good points. Just a quick note on Dumervil. When he came into the league, it was noted that even for his size, he had multiple pass rush moves to include a bullrush. Jarvis didn't. That's why Elvis is succeeding as a pass rusher. He has he ability to change up. Jarvis hasn't shown he can do that...yet.


As for the Shanahan/Sundquist choices, I listed them both since they are/were the only two that had much say in our draft choices. Sundquist may or may not be more responsible for our crappy draft record. We'll never know. Nevertheless, the ultimate success or failure of our choices falls to Shanahan since he has the last say.

IMO, i still think our DL coaches should be replaced.

they have been over and over ...LOL I think we need to stop treating our DL coaches like hookers and start paying for the really good ones $50 dont get much.

the problem is simple you cannot make sugar cookies out of crap .

Moss is not crap by the way people need to give this kid a chance he will get better .

56crash
09-11-2008, 12:06 PM
Bust. Trading up for him was even more stupid.

Nope your post is a bust , and you were stupid to say that .

omac
09-11-2008, 12:08 PM
Good points. Just a quick note on Dumervil. When he came into the league, it was noted that even for his size, he had multiple pass rush moves to include a bullrush. Jarvis didn't. That's why Elvis is succeeding as a pass rusher. He has he ability to change up. Jarvis hasn't shown he can do that...yet.


As for the Shanahan/Sundquist choices, I listed them both since they are/were the only two that had much say in our draft choices. Sundquist may or may not be more responsible for our crappy draft record. We'll never know. Nevertheless, the ultimate success or failure of our choices falls to Shanahan since he has the last say.

IMO, i still think our DL coaches should be replaced.

Yeah, unfortunately for Jarvis, he'd been injured/sick a lot during college, so a lot of his scouting was probably based on potential upside.

On Shanny/Sundquist as the only two who had much say in our draft choices ... Moss fits Bates' physical mold of what he likes in a DE, like one of his former players, and a lot of the criticism on Shanny/Sundquist is that they don't invest enough on the defensive (or offensive) line. That's why I'm more apt to believe that Moss was Bates' choice. We'll have to disagree, and that's cool. :cheers:

jhns
09-11-2008, 12:13 PM
Who cares who drafted who. Is anyone seriously going to sit here and say that we still can't draft? Just look at our team and how many are now drafted by us or undrafted and picked up by us. It is an amazing turnaround from before. Also, it isn't like those guys are making the team because there just is noone better. We have been drafting some superstars.

broncofaninfla
09-11-2008, 12:30 PM
Who cares who drafted who. Is anyone seriously going to sit here and say that we still can't draft? Just look at our team and how many are now drafted by us or undrafted and picked up by us. It is an amazing turnaround from before. Also, it isn't like those guys are making the team because there just is noone better. We have been drafting some superstars.

Drafts are hits and misses for ALL teams. We are no exception. We've obviously had some success with the draft just look how young and good our team is. I'm still very happy with the young guns on our team, just not Moss. He looks like a bust at this point. A good point that was mentioned in this thread that I didn't think about was that Moss was drafted to play in another system. If he doesn't fit in here maybe we can trade him to a team with a similar system so that pick isn't a total loss?

jhns
09-11-2008, 12:40 PM
Drafts are hits and misses for ALL teams. We are no exception. We've obviously had some success with the draft just look how young and good our team is. I'm still very happy with the young guns on our team, just not Moss. He looks like a bust at this point. A good point that was mentioned in this thread that I didn't think about was that Moss was drafted to play in another system. If he doesn't fit in here maybe we can trade him to a team with a similar system so that pick isn't a total loss?

Maybe but I wouldnt give up on him yet. He has less experience than most anyone in the NFL that is in their second year. Also, a lot of players take some time to develope. While you may want a first rounder to develope faster, Moss hasn't played much to develope. He was held out of a single game because he isn't good against the run yet. Really that could have been a Shanny motivation thing, he has done it many times before. The guy still has a chance to be good an be good in this system. People just need to be a little more patient.

Also, I doubt we can get anything for him until he shows he can do something.

56crash
09-11-2008, 12:49 PM
Drafts are hits and misses for ALL teams. We are no exception. We've obviously had some success with the draft just look how young and good our team is. I'm still very happy with the young guns on our team, just not Moss. He looks like a bust at this point. A good point that was mentioned in this thread that I didn't think about was that Moss was drafted to play in another system. If he doesn't fit in here maybe we can trade him to a team with a similar system so that pick isn't a total loss?

Loss (Bust)why you say that he is young no need to lable a kid ? people need to give this kid a chance he is in coaches run D dog house let him have a chance to fight out .

56crash
09-11-2008, 12:53 PM
Maybe but I wouldnt give up on him yet. He has less experience than most anyone in the NFL that is in their second year. Also, a lot of players take some time to develope. While you may want a first rounder to develope faster, Moss hasn't played much to develope. He was held out of a single game because he isn't good against the run yet. Really that could have been a Shanny motivation thing, he has done it many times before. The guy still has a chance to be good an be good in this system. People just need to be a little more patient.

Also, I doubt we can get anything for him until he shows he can do something.


that and he busted his leg some around here need to lighten up !

jhns great take I still think the kid will pan but who knows way way to early to say ....I bet by week 6 people will be talking him up

Buff
09-11-2008, 12:53 PM
Nope your post is a bust , and you were stupid to say that .

Would you care to back up your opinion with anything other than blind faith?

Any 1st round draft pick who is a healthy scratch in the season opener of his 2nd year has to be considered at least somewhat of a bust... Now, he may still pan out to be less of a bust-- but the Broncos didn't give Jarvis $8 mil in guaranteed money to be a developmental player.

56crash
09-11-2008, 12:56 PM
thing is Moss is young it might take 3 years for him to be what the broncos want but I think he will get there .

56crash
09-11-2008, 01:00 PM
Would you care to back up your opinion with anything other than blind faith?

Any 1st round draft pick who is a healthy scratch in the season opener of his 2nd year has to be considered at least somewhat of a bust... Now, he may still pan out to be less of a bust-- but the Broncos didn't give Jarvis $8 mil in guaranteed money to be a developmental player.

well sure I am thinking your talkin a bet right ? sure I am willing to bet you that moss is playing and making strides each week . and possibly starting DE by the end of the year ...

Requiem / The Dagda
09-11-2008, 01:01 PM
Nope your post is a bust , and you were stupid to say that .

I'll take my football opine over yours any day of the week. Thanks!

56crash
09-11-2008, 01:03 PM
I'll take my football opine over yours any day of the week. Thanks!


well I hope you get what you sow . butt head

NameUsedBefore
09-11-2008, 01:06 PM
I have never been impressed with Moss, even when we selected him. It was very much a "meh" 1st-round choice to me and he hasn't done anything whatsoever. I agree with the sentiments that he's got 'bust' written all over him.

broncofaninfla
09-11-2008, 02:35 PM
Maybe bust is too strong. I'd love to see the guy shine. I had high hopes for him after watching him at Florida. I'm just disappointed with what he has contributed to date. Especially when you compare him to some of this years draft picks and how they contributed. Hopefully he'll come on as the season progresses and show why he was a top 20 pick.

broncos9697
09-11-2008, 02:39 PM
Moss will be in street clothes again this week,he was in street clothes yesterday at pratice, he did not play last week because the raiders are mainly a run team and he's a pass rusher...and once again chargers are more of a threat with the run so he will not be playing tis week..

broncofaninfla
09-11-2008, 02:43 PM
Moss will be in street clothes again this week,he was in street clothes yesterday at pratice, he did not play last week because the raiders are mainly a run team and he's a pass rusher...and once again chargers are more of a threat with the run so he will not be playing tis week..

He was in street clothes at practice yesterday?

haroldthebarrel
09-11-2008, 02:43 PM
A second year draft pick who is not injured and arent even allowed to dress in week one is certainly a huge dissappointment if not a bust.

Too bad, as I kinda like the player. Crowder, like it seems all Longhorn players, doesnt play very smart. He bites on playaction an awfully lot. Heck he contained when he should have pursued a couple of times as well.

LRtagger
09-11-2008, 02:54 PM
For a second I thought I stepped into a time machine and was back in a Travis Henry thread with NB

Retired_Member_001
09-11-2008, 04:52 PM
I have never been impressed with Moss, even when we selected him. It was very much a "meh" 1st-round choice to me and he hasn't done anything whatsoever. I agree with the sentiments that he's got 'bust' written all over him.

It's a fair enough opinion, but could we please give him a little more time before we call him a bust. If we see nothing from him this season, then feel free to call him a bust, but please, give him a little more time. A broken leg is NOT an easy injury to come back from.

haroldthebarrel
09-11-2008, 04:58 PM
It's a fair enough opinion, but could we please give him a little more time before we call him a bust. If we see nothing from him this season, then feel free to call him a bust, but please, give him a little more time. A broken leg is NOT an easy injury to come back from.

My best friend is a medic and he says that broken bones heals well.
What lingers are damage to the ligaments and muscles.

I think a lot of what we are told of him is nothing but bs.
Do you remember when they said he was a mad man in the weight room and had gained a lot of weight. Turns out he is as slim as before.

I think his shot of getting legit playing time is intrinsically tied to how often we manage to get a lead where they have to pass more.
If the Oakland game is what to come, then it looks good for him and Elvis.

honz
09-11-2008, 05:04 PM
If he shows no progress this year then I will start to worry. He was an athletic project when we drafted him and he is more a rookie than he is a 2nd year player. I'm gonna give him a little more time before I write him off as a bust.

Retired_Member_001
09-11-2008, 05:08 PM
My best friend is a medic and he says that broken bones heals well.
What lingers are damage to the ligaments and muscles.

I think a lot of what we are told of him is nothing but bs.
Do you remember when they said he was a mad man in the weight room and had gained a lot of weight. Turns out he is as slim as before.

I think his shot of getting legit playing time is intrinsically tied to how often we manage to get a lead where they have to pass more.
If the Oakland game is what to come, then it looks good for him and Elvis.

Well when I said "Broken legs take time to heal", I met all the aspects and things that come with a broken leg. You'd probably be abit nervous of physical contact in Football for a while.

As for the Oakland game, we were facing one of the worst offensive lines in Football. For the love of the Broncos, don't measure the DE's with the Raiders standards. That's just not going to work. If they do a good job against the Chargers, then we can start raving about them.

Npba900
09-11-2008, 06:18 PM
If he shows no progress this year then I will start to worry. He was an athletic project when we drafted him and he is more a rookie than he is a 2nd year player. I'm gonna give him a little more time before I write him off as a bust.

As a first round pick, Denver has no other choice really but to see whether Moss progresses in to a 1st rnd pick either his 3rd or 4th season. I was a little disappointed to here he was unable to bulk up and at least gain 20-30lbs during the off-season.

Was there a program during the off season to ensure Moss was going to gain weight---did the Broncos even assign a coach or program to help Moss make the necessary improvements?. Did the Broncos assign Moss a nutritionist? How many off season work outs did Moss miss or attend? So many questions.

Another thought, like some forum members have already stated I have to wonder what type of training and development the coaches have designed for Moss? Without the Broncos allowing training camp to be featured on HBO or on the NFL network, fans like myself can't really guage what type coaching development, drills, and fundamentals are really taking place with Moss's development.

As a result, something is definately wrong! Is it Moss just being lazy and not motivated to get stronger, better, faster! or Is it a lack of coaching/coaches who just do not know how to make players better and play to their potential or above their potential.

haroldthebarrel
09-11-2008, 06:20 PM
As a first round pick, Denver has no other choice really but to see whether Moss progresses in to a 1st rnd pick either his 3rd or 4th season. I was a little disappointed to here he was unable to bulk up and at least gain 20-30lbs during the off-season.

Was there a program during the off season to ensure Moss was going to gain weight---did the Broncos even assign a coach or program to help Moss make the necessary improvements?. Did the Broncos assign Moss a nutritionist? How many off season work outs did Moss miss or attend? So many questions.

Another thought, like some forum members have already stated I have to wonder what type of training and development the coaches have designed for Moss? Without the Broncos allowing training camp to be featured on HBO or on the NFL network, fans like myself can't really guage what type coaching development, drills, and fundamentals are really taking place with Moss's development.

As a result, something is definately wrong! Is it Moss just being lazy and not motivated to get stronger, better, faster! or Is it a lack of coaching/coaches who just do not know how to make players better and play to their potential or above their potential.

good post and I agree.

But what really bugs me is the bull shit reports stating he had gained weight and become a weight room warrior that we heard in the early off season.

Bolltfanbo
09-11-2008, 08:18 PM
I would think a #1 pick would be more than just a situational guy by now. I wish we could trade him but I doubt anybody would offer anything in return for him. I hate to talk negative but he sure looks like a bust. I question his motor and heart.

Wasn't that the concern about him coming out of the draft? I kinda remember hearing that. Bust picks suck... We know all about that pre AJ Smith days....

Bronco9798
09-11-2008, 08:27 PM
1st round draft picks shouldn't be inactive, period. Not much more you can say.

TimBuff10
09-12-2008, 12:33 AM
BUST!

He has the power to change that, but right now Moss is a bust. If you dont agree with that, you just want to argue.

The only thing I can think of is maybe he is still injured? If not, we need to move him after the season and try and get something... Maybe the Raiders will give us something good for him? If not, clear the spot and get a run stuffer.

topscribe
09-12-2008, 12:50 AM
BUST!

He has the power to change that, but right now Moss is a bust. If you dont agree with that, you just want to argue.

The only thing I can think of is maybe he is still injured? If not, we need to move him after the season and try and get something... Maybe the Raiders will give us something good for him? If not, clear the spot and get a run stuffer.

It's a little early to call Moss a bust. A disappointment? Certainly, so far. But
a bust is someone who has been concluded as a failure. Since Moss is still one
of the 53, that has not yet been concluded . . .

-----

lex
09-12-2008, 01:03 AM
BUST!

He has the power to change that, but right now Moss is a bust. If you dont agree with that, you just want to argue.
The only thing I can think of is maybe he is still injured? If not, we need to move him after the season and try and get something... Maybe the Raiders will give us something good for him? If not, clear the spot and get a run stuffer.

LOL. Thats classic. "If you dont agree with that, you just want to argue." Do you actually expect people to buy that? LOL.

We have to give Moss time. He has been healthy for, what, 9 games? I dont like what Ive seen either but he hasnt even played the equvalent of a full season. Not only that but this guy was drafted on upside. Its kind of obvious that there was some risk otherwise, drafting Crowder as a way to hedge our bets may not have happened.

SoCalImport
09-12-2008, 05:00 AM
It's been said many times (in here and back the Freak) that rookies need 3 yrs on average to adjust to the pro game before any conclusion can be made. Rookie D-linemen are probably at the outside edge of that average.
Hell. Supermario didn't do anything special his rookie year, and He actually got to play the season.
Moss is basically a rook this year due to BREAKING HIS LEG in 07.

I'm not saying He won't be a bust. But it's just too soon to make that call.

sneakers
09-12-2008, 05:27 AM
Does anyone else notice that we have had a disproportionate amount of first round busts from the rest of the league since I dunno, the last 15 years?

gobroncsnv
09-12-2008, 07:02 AM
Does anyone else notice that we have had a disproportionate amount of first round busts from the rest of the league since I dunno, the last 15 years?

I see a better trend over the last 3-4 yrs than the previous 7+. Jay makes up for at least 2 busts. Clady has the look of one who could also make up for 2 busts... (don't bother to look it up, I just wanted to make up a formula to look all scientific). I don't think DJ is all-pro yet, but he's playing well, especially after being shifted around so much.
Moss??? If he still has a lingering health issue (don't think anybody has said so), then he gets somewhat of a pass. If he's just a healthy game day scratch, the concerns are valid, but I thought he showed some promise on the games he was in last year. I think we let this one run a little bit before we give up on the kid.

BeefStew25
09-12-2008, 07:17 AM
LOL. Thats classic. "If you dont agree with that, you just want to argue." Do you actually expect people to buy that? LOL.

We have to give Moss time. He has been healthy for, what, 9 games? I dont like what Ive seen either but he hasnt even played the equvalent of a full season. Not only that but this guy was drafted on upside. Its kind of obvious that there was some risk otherwise, drafting Crowder as a way to hedge our bets may not have happened.

I'll give Moss time if you give Harris time. Is that a deal?

omac
09-12-2008, 07:20 AM
Does anyone else notice that we have had a disproportionate amount of first round busts from the rest of the league since I dunno, the last 15 years?

Tell you what. If the Broncos win a superbowl before the Chargers do, then it won't matter. And if the Chargers don't win a superbowl with this talented cast, then all their drafts didn't mean crap. :cheers:

omac
09-12-2008, 07:21 AM
I'll give Moss time if you give Harris time. Is that a deal?

Isn't Harris already doing pretty good? :confused:

lex
09-12-2008, 10:01 AM
I'll give Moss time if you give Harris time. Is that a deal?


You act like I want Harris to fail. I hope it works out but given his decline his senior year, his back problems, and fasting, it was a very risky pick and the fact that it might work out doesnt change that. How many other players have we taken with injuries that havent worked out. Not only that but when you look at that draft, we took a lot of risks:

Moss: weight/strength
Harris: injury/strength
Thomas: disciplinary risk

I hope they all work out. But taking that much risk in one draft opens the door for scrutiny. Its hard enough to acquire good players even when the risks identifed here dont exist.

56crash
09-12-2008, 10:14 AM
all you guys seem to forget moss was just starting to shine when he got hurt I think people need to light up but I guess YAITYO

broncofaninfla
09-12-2008, 01:59 PM
all you guys seem to forget moss was just starting to shine when he got hurt I think people need to light up but I guess YAITYO


I'm not being a smart *ss here but when did he ever shine or contribute like a first rounder should? A pre-season game last year?

topscribe
09-12-2008, 02:34 PM
You act like I want Harris to fail. I hope it works out but given his decline his senior year, his back problems, and fasting, it was a very risky pick and the fact that it might work out doesnt change that. How many other players have we taken with injuries that havent worked out. Not only that but when you look at that draft, we took a lot of risks:

Moss: weight/strength
Harris: injury/strength
Thomas: disciplinary risk

I hope they all work out. But taking that much risk in one draft opens the door for scrutiny. Its hard enough to acquire good players even when the risks identifed here dont exist.

As my daddy used to say, you're not going to get across the pond until
you step into the boat. The Broncos took risks in several areas. Among
them, Harris and Thomas are starting, as you know, and are doing splendid
jobs so far. Harris has not allowed a sack, and at least some of the coaches
believe Pro Bowls are in Thomas' future.

Now, who would be playing there, had the Broncos not taken those risks?
It's a fact of nature: high risk, high reward; low risk, low reward. Sometimes
a Clarett comes along. But then, sometimes a Harris or Thomas comes
along. So the jury is out with Jarvis.

I can live with that . . . :coffee:

-----

broncos9697
09-12-2008, 03:36 PM
He was in street clothes at practice yesterday?

yes...
and today..

jhns
09-12-2008, 03:40 PM
yes...
and today..

Where is this information comming from? I haven't seen anyone say he isn't practicing.

Bronco9798
09-12-2008, 04:03 PM
It's been said many times (in here and back the Freak) that rookies need 3 yrs on average to adjust to the pro game before any conclusion can be made. Rookie D-linemen are probably at the outside edge of that average.
Hell. Supermario didn't do anything special his rookie year, and He actually got to play the season.
Moss is basically a rook this year due to BREAKING HIS LEG in 07.

I'm not saying He won't be a bust. But it's just too soon to make that call.

3 years of playing and getting better. 3 years on the sideline and being inactive will not make you a better football player. DL and DE don't exactly take 3 years. Maybe QB's and most WR's. Not a DE. In order to get better, you have to play. Period. If Moss was a 5th rounder, I'd give you some credit with that statement. He was a 1st round draft pick. People need to realize where he was drafted at and then make assessments based on that pick. He's a bust for where he was drafted.

turftoad
09-12-2008, 04:21 PM
3 years of playing and getting better. 3 years on the sideline and being inactive will not make you a better football player. DL and DE don't exactly take 3 years. Maybe QB's and most WR's. Not a DE. In order to get better, you have to play. Period. If Moss was a 5th rounder, I'd give you some credit with that statement. He was a 1st round draft pick. People need to realize where he was drafted at and then make assessments based on that pick. He's a bust for where he was drafted.

Not to mention that we moved up to draft him.

topscribe
09-12-2008, 05:00 PM
3 years of playing and getting better. 3 years on the sideline and being inactive will not make you a better football player. DL and DE don't exactly take 3 years. Maybe QB's and most WR's. Not a DE. In order to get better, you have to play. Period. If Moss was a 5th rounder, I'd give you some credit with that statement. He was a 1st round draft pick. People need to realize where he was drafted at and then make assessments based on that pick. He's a bust for where he was drafted.

Not necessarily true. I was a DE. Moss is in essentially his rookie year. Seldom
do DEs do particularly well in their rookie years. Even Super Mario was viewed
as a disappointment by some in his first year. I have read more than once
the words of the Denver coaches, where they say it takes a couple years or
so for a defensive lineman.

You say he's a bust. Fine. That is your (misguided) opinion. But that does
not make him a bust. Now, if he has been cut within a couple years, or he
is a second-stringer behind players who are not viewed as a couple of the
better DEs in the league (such as Dumervil), then it will be fair to consider
him a bust for where he was drafted. Until then, the jury is still out.

-----

lex
09-12-2008, 08:55 PM
As my daddy used to say, you're not going to get across the pond until
you step into the boat. The Broncos took risks in several areas. Among
them, Harris and Thomas are starting, as you know, and are doing splendid
jobs so far. Harris has not allowed a sack, and at least some of the coaches
believe Pro Bowls are in Thomas' future.

Now, who would be playing there, had the Broncos not taken those risks?
It's a fact of nature: high risk, high reward; low risk, low reward. Sometimes
a Clarett comes along. But then, sometimes a Harris or Thomas comes
along. So the jury is out with Jarvis.

I can live with that . . . :coffee:

-----

Quite honestly, I dont care about your daddy and I stopped reading there. Fluffy inaneness is not really that interesting to me.

topscribe
09-12-2008, 09:58 PM
Quite honestly, I dont care about your daddy and I stopped reading there. Fluffy inaneness is not really that interesting to me.

As I keep trying to discuss the issue, you keep throwing shots at me.

I suggest you stop baiting and flaming and get back to the topic at hand.

-----

Superchop 7
09-13-2008, 12:37 AM
Moss will not be a beast till next year.

Let it ride.

He will come in damn handy at the superbowl.

Npba900
09-13-2008, 07:19 AM
Moss has got 4 years to show whether he was worth the pick, risk, and I believe $8 million signing bonus. At the end of his 4th season if he hasn't panned out......its adiós. In the mean time, you can't give up on 1st round pick and the investment, unless of course Moss suddenly has a rash disciplinary, behavioral, and or legal problems. The Broncos and Moss are kinda stuck with one another.

I don't know what the problem is, but with the exception of Dumervill, Denver has had a long history thus far of evaluating, drafting, developing, and keeping Defensive linemen who can put pressure on the QB and come up with sacks.

When you miss as often as Denver has on selecting DL who can pressure and sack the QB, you have no other choice as an Organization but to try something radical and outside the box. Perhaps during the 2009 draft, Denver selects the best available pass rushing specialists with their first 3 picks! I know it sounds crazy, but something has to give its as if Broncos are jinxed over the last 10 years of not being able to find pass rushers.

turftoad
09-13-2008, 09:55 AM
Moss has got 4 years to show whether he was worth the pick, risk, and I believe $8 million signing bonus. At the end of his 4th season if he hasn't panned out......its adiós. In the mean time, you can't give up on 1st round pick and the investment, unless of course Moss suddenly has a rash disciplinary, behavioral, and or legal problems. The Broncos and Moss are kinda stuck with one another.

I don't know what the problem is, but with the exception of Dumervill, Denver has had a long history thus far of evaluating, drafting, developing, and keeping Defensive linemen who can put pressure on the QB and come up with sacks.

When you miss as often as Denver has on selecting DL who can pressure and sack the QB, you have no other choice as an Organization but to try something radical and outside the box. Perhaps during the 2009 draft, Denver selects the best available pass rushing specialists with their first 3 picks! I know it sounds crazy, but something has to give its as if Broncos are jinxed over the last 10 years of not being able to find pass rushers.

I agree with most of this however, you don't move up in the first round, give a guy an 8 mil signing bonus plus his salary to sit on the bench for 4 years until he pans out.

Teams expect a first rounder to contribute pretty much right away, plain and simple. He may not be a stud right away but should be on the field learning and contributing. Not de activated and sitting on the bench.

omac
09-13-2008, 11:11 AM
I agree with most of this however, you don't move up in the first round, give a guy an 8 mil signing bonus plus his salary to sit on the bench for 4 years until he pans out.

Teams expect a first rounder to contribute pretty much right away, plain and simple. He may not be a stud right away but should be on the field learning and contributing. Not de activated and sitting on the bench.

I agree. Unfortunately for 1st rounders, the investment made on them is pretty high, so teams usualy can't wait to long for it to pan out. Honestly, if it takes Moss 4 years to pan out, it would've been a bad investment, since his contract is only for 5 years. So in effect, all that first round money they paid for him for 1 or 2 years of high-quality service is unacceptable.

Ofcourse, when teams get players cheap, like late rounders or undrafted ones, then they can be tons more patient, as they haven't invested much in them. Their development might even be better, and they have a chance to grow in the practice squad too. Look at Romo; he went undrafted, signed with the Cowboys, rode the pine and got better and better. Let's say Bledsoe got injured much later, towards the end of Romo's contract while he was still a backup, the Cowboys would have no problem extending his contract.

Contrast that with Alex Smith; he had an expensive contract, and he hasn't panned out yet. Most believe that he won't be with the 49ers next season when his contract is over(?). Now if he entered the 49ers as a late rounder or a UFA, he'd have a better chance for an extension, because the investment is much, much less.

Moss as a first rounder needs to pan out much sooner than most people think. If he doesn't show flashes this season, I doubt he'll be a Bronco next season.

hamrob
09-13-2008, 01:12 PM
I think Mr. Moss has found himself in Shanny's dog-house. Why? Shanny told him he's too light in the ass to be an every down DE. He told him to pack 20lbs on in the offseason.

Moss, turns around and says...aint' going to happen...I am who I am.

Shanny says, yeah...you are who you are...a string bean who can't support the run...and therefore...you won't be seeing the field too much!

Message to Moss...get bigger or get gone! Shanny aint afraid of dumping a 1st round bust.

56crash
09-13-2008, 02:43 PM
I think Mr. Moss has found himself in Shanny's dog-house. Why? Shanny told him he's too light in the ass to be an every down DE. He told him to pack 20lbs on in the offseason.

Moss, turns around and says...aint' going to happen...I am who I am.

Shanny says, yeah...you are who you are...a string bean who can't support the run...and therefore...you won't be seeing the field too much!

Message to Moss...get bigger or get gone! Shanny aint afraid of dumping a 1st round bust.

I vist many places on the web.... never have I seen anything on gaining wieght ???????????? Link on something showing Coach wanting moss to gain wieght and then him telling coach no dice?!?!

if you show me a link I will gladly call him a bust and start calling for him to be cut because what team would want a piece of crap that would not work with what his coach wanted!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek::eek::eek:

hamrob
09-13-2008, 04:49 PM
I vist many places on the web.... never have I seen anything on gaining wieght ???????????? Link on something showing Coach wanting moss to gain wieght and then him telling coach no dice?!?!

if you show me a link I will gladly call him a bust and start calling for him to be cut because what team would want a piece of crap that would not work with what his coach wanted!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek::eek::eek:I know there were a couple of other threads on this here and over at the Mane. I'm not going to spend the time looking for links. If I come across stuff I'll post it though.

It was discussed when we drafted Moss that he might be a little light in the ass. He was and still is listed at 265lbs...which is a flat-out lie. He weighs 245lbs.

I can recall Shanny talking about the fact that they wanted him to put some additional weight on, so that he could hold up better and be able to support the run. I know this has been discussed in other threads...but I don't want to dig for them.

The following link is to an article in the RMN that discussed him being ready to go this year, that he had rehabed well etc. There is a comment in there where it says he only weighs 245lbs and that he's starting to understand that he won't be able to put on additional weight.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/sep/05/healthy-again-broncos-moss-raring-to-go/

Essentially, I'm reading between the lines...but I think it's obvious. The guy is a twig out there. He is 6'6' 245lbs...and there is a reason he's not suiting up for games. Shanny says it's because he is a pass rushing defensive end...which tells us that he has no confidence in him playing against the run.

Here's a guy we used a 1st and a 3rd to get...and we can't even dress him out. He's one dimensional. Compare that to the shortest DE in the NFL in Dumervil...whose starting and playing the run as well as pass rushing.

What does that say about Moss. Maybe it's only me, maybe he needs more time (fingers crossed) but not suiting up for the first two ball-games...I think that says alot about how Shanny views Moss.

G_Money
09-13-2008, 05:25 PM
I hated Moss when we drafted him. I hated giving up the extra pick, which forced us to give up several more picks to get Thomas - and getting a raw, 3rd-down specialist for the privilege was even worse. If we'd still had our extra 3rd rounder we could have drafted Thomas with that and had our 6th, 7th and 2008's 3rd rounder still. And with the apparent success we have had in the draft in 06 and 08 you have to at least wonder who might have been our choices to help us.

Still, none of that is as important as whether the picks we DID take actually turn into something. If Moss becomes Simon Fletcher I don't think anybody will complain about that extra 3rd round pick. He's built like Simon, though Simon played in a different era. But Simon played LB for most of his career, something Moss hasn't done and almost certainly won't do for us.

Which means Moss has to make a difference for us at DE. He is really, REALLY ripped. I care less about weight than about strength, so if he can hold his own or get under the pads of the OT and move him then it doesn't matter if he has 20 extra pounds on him or not. The idea is for him to get bigger and stronger so he can hold his edge, not to make him fat and sloppy.

I don't know that he can do that. It's far too early to say - that broken leg really set him back last year, and it does take a while for DL to adjust from college to the pros. But Moss has to show improvement this year, or we'll likely have to re-address the position in the draft - something I really DON'T want to do, because nothing about the 07 draft tells me we know how to draft a dominant DL on the first day.

I'm just glad we have Dumervil. At least from one side I can count on some sort of QB pressure during the game. I sure hope Moss becomes at least an occasional contributor - we have very important safety and MLB holes to fill. I hope not to see a DL choice til at least the 3rd round, but a decent showing by Webster this year and another implosion by members of our DL might force Shanny's hand to a direction we've had much less success at.

~G

hamrob
09-13-2008, 08:51 PM
Good post G. I agree that if he improves his strength that will help...but I'm certainly not sold on it. I think a guy with a 6'6' frame ought to be able to put another 20lbs of muscle on his frame. My concern with Moss isn't his uppler body...although I don't think he benched well at the combine (if I remember correctly?)...it's his lower body...where he has pencil legs. You look at a guy like Doom...and he is think down stairs...which helps with leverage...but if you have twig legs...you tend to get bullied in the run game.

I too hope he pans out...because he's on our roster...I'm just saying, being inactive the first two games isn't the best of signs.

Simple Jaded
09-13-2008, 09:25 PM
Jarvis Moss started slow in college too......

broncofaninfla
09-15-2008, 10:49 AM
For the second consecutive week the Broncos made defensive end Jarvis Moss, their first-round pick in the 2007 draft, one of their game-day inactives against the Chargers.

hamrob
09-15-2008, 11:17 AM
For the second consecutive week the Broncos made defensive end Jarvis Moss, their first-round pick in the 2007 draft, one of their game-day inactives against the Chargers.That's right...and against a team that threw for 377 yards...hmmm?

DenBronx
09-15-2008, 11:42 AM
not looking good for moss. it's like he doesnt even exist on the team.

reggie nelson or jon beason anyone would have fit in nice here. god i wish we had one of those guys instead.

lauranitis in 2009 anyone???

broncofaninfla
09-15-2008, 12:03 PM
I'm guessing they'll dress him this week. If he doesn't contribute, I'll officially call him a bust. I'm hoping he shines in this game enough that he has some sort of trade value and we trade him. It looks like he just doesn't fit our system, maybe he could shine in another system with another team. We could make a trade for somebody who can play and contribute week in and week out and stay off of the inactive list.

shank
09-15-2008, 12:08 PM
I'm guessing they'll dress him this week. If he doesn't contribute, I'll officially call him a bust. I'm hoping he shines in this game enough that he has some sort of trade value and we trade him. It looks like he just doesn't fit our system, maybe he could shine in another system with another team. We could make a trade for somebody who can play and contribute week in and week out and stay off of the inactive list.

if we trade him, i guarantee he will all the sudden look like a 17th overall pick wherever he ends up :tsk:

i still have a smidgeon of hope, but up till now, there still hasn't been a point in time where i liked the pick.

Fan in Exile
09-15-2008, 12:22 PM
I would be more willing to count Moss a bust if I had any confidence in our defense. I mean that from coaches on down. I have no confidence that the people who have fielded this defense have any idea how to run a defense.

That means in my opinion that them benching Moss could be as much a sign of their problem as it is a sign that he has problems.

Simple Jaded
09-15-2008, 12:25 PM
I'm guessing they'll dress him this week. If he doesn't contribute, I'll officially call him a bust. I'm hoping he shines in this game enough that he has some sort of trade value and we trade him. It looks like he just doesn't fit our system, maybe he could shine in another system with another team. We could make a trade for somebody who can play and contribute week in and week out and stay off of the inactive list.

But that could change with the Annual Scapegoating......

silkamilkamonico
09-15-2008, 12:43 PM
I would be more willing to count Moss a bust if I had any confidence in our defense. I mean that from coaches on down. I have no confidence that the people who have fielded this defense have any idea how to run a defense.


I agree. I don't have issues with Moss or the players. I have issues with the coaches that are supposed to be "developing" them, or the people that are supposedly "evaluating" them.

We are seriously lacking in one of those areas if not both.

As far as the weight issue, you don't draft a player in the first round who specialized in college, and then tell him he needs to put more weight on if he wants to play and be effective. There are so many things wrong with that.

hamrob
09-15-2008, 01:23 PM
I was one of the guys who wanted Moss in the draft. However, I was shocked at what we gave up to get him. I thought...if we were willing to do that...we should have went after Willis. Regardless...that's history.

What we need to try and find out...is whether this kid can play? I mean really? We have to have one of the worst dlines in the game. Is Moss really that bad...where he can't even get in the rotation. Totally odd..if you ask me.

broncosinindy
09-15-2008, 01:51 PM
There were days when Moss thought he'd never get back. Today is not one of them.

The defensive end just weighed in at 245 pounds - "I'm starting to realize the bulk won't come," he'd say afterward. But best of all, he had passed his training camp physical and it was officially full steam ahead for the preseason.

"There's a sense of life in me," he said that day, July 24, only hours before the start of two-a-day practices. "Being around the team, competing, it's just a really good feeling."

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/sep/05/healthy-again-broncos-moss-raring-to-go/

silkamilkamonico
09-15-2008, 02:03 PM
Well, Moss should be active next weekend against the Saints, with them being a pass oriented team.

If he's not, I'm not holding onto hope anymore.

With all the negative perception about MOss going on right now, who knows. Maybe he gets into the game next week and just completely breaks out. I'm not holding onto faith for that, but that's not entirely out of the realm of possibility either.

Fan in Exile
09-15-2008, 02:08 PM
At this point if Moss doesn't make it onto the field next week, I think the best thing for him is to head to a different team.

I have no idea what the best thing for us would be

haroldthebarrel
09-15-2008, 03:00 PM
At this point if Moss doesn't make it onto the field next week, I think the best thing for him is to head to a different team.

I have no idea what the best thing for us would be

Pay up for Peppers next year?

I am so sad of the state of affairs at the defensive line. Our line should be creating hurries when the opponent just passes. We get the team to make others one dimensional, and our star pass rusher cant even see the field.

This example convinces me even more that when the talent crop in a year is thing, you should either trade up, or trade down to get picks next year.

G_Money
09-15-2008, 03:25 PM
Um...who says the talent crop in the 07 draft was too thin? There were good safeties and corners to be had. Decent LBs.

We drafted 3 DL in it, and it might not have been as deep at defensive line as we thought, but DL are notoriously hard to judge. It's still too early to say.

But spending 6 picks (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 7th, '08 3rd) on 3 DL in a draft deeper in other areas might have hurt us.

From early returns 2007 doesn't look like a great draft, no. But there are plenty of players to be had even in non-stellar drafts. We just put all our eggs in the DL basket (cept for Harris).

*shrugs* Maybe it'll still work out for us.

I'm just hoping we fix other positions first in this upcoming draft - I'm much more confident in our ability to get a good safety or LB than another DE project that works out.

~G

broncobryce
09-15-2008, 03:26 PM
Don't know if this was posted yet or not, but I think it's Shanahan's way of saying "Gain some weight or else."

CoachChaz
09-15-2008, 03:30 PM
The '09 draft is where we get our LB and S. A DE will have to come via FA

G_Money
09-15-2008, 03:31 PM
I think Moss is just like another DE with talent and no weight, George Selvie. George plays for USF, and eats 5 or 6 meals a day to gain 10 pounds in the offseason. He just can't get over 245 or so. His metabolism is too high.

George has loads of talent, but he probably can't play DE full-time in the pros if he can't add weight. Same problem with Moss. If we played a 3-4 we could solve that problem by moving Moss to LB.

We can't. He either holds an edge for us, or he's a situational player only. And if he gets trapped in Shanny's doghouse like he seems to be getting, then he won't even do that.

I can see us cutting Moss. Shanahan doesn't have any problem doing that. Is Dan Bazuin still available? He blew his knee out but he has a motor and the 20 extra pounds that Moss doesn't have...

~G

shank
09-15-2008, 03:34 PM
Don't know if this was posted yet or not, but I think it's Shanahan's way of saying "Gain some weight or else."

while it would help, that would be stupid. some people really just can't add weight no matter what they do.

i hope the message is "step up or else."

we knew what jarvis was when we drafted him, and it would be ridiculous to give him an ultimatum to change the type of player he is when he's never in his football career shown himself to be anything but a pass rusher.

there were hopes that he could develop into a 3 down player, but those hopes are disappearing and it can't be blamed on anyone but whoever decided to draft him.

G_Money
09-15-2008, 03:36 PM
The '09 draft is where we get our LB and S. A DE will have to come via FA

You'd think there are just too many quality safeties and MLB's that should be in the upcoming draft for us to monkey around with other positions.

Of course, I thought that in '06 as well. :coffee: Beason and Tanard Jackson wouldn't have been so bad...

~G

CoachChaz
09-15-2008, 03:47 PM
You'd think there are just too many quality safeties and MLB's that should be in the upcoming draft for us to monkey around with other positions.

Of course, I thought that in '06 as well. :coffee: Beason and Tanard Jackson wouldn't have been so bad...

~G

I swear if we draft a DE in the first 3 rounds, I'll be sick.

Retired_Member_001
09-15-2008, 08:17 PM
Well, Moss should be active next weekend against the Saints, with them being a pass oriented team.

If he's not, I'm not holding onto hope anymore.

With all the negative perception about MOss going on right now, who knows. Maybe he gets into the game next week and just completely breaks out. I'm not holding onto faith for that, but that's not entirely out of the realm of possibility either.

I agree, unless he is injured, if he is not playing next week, then it's pretty much over for him. Maybe we can ship him off to the Browns or something? I don't know. It's a shame because I had high hopes for the guy, and he does look like an effective pass rusher, but if he's the under weight, how's he supposed to go against the run?

Broncolingus
09-15-2008, 08:24 PM
Jarvis who?

SmilinAssasSin27
09-15-2008, 08:39 PM
Still pissed we skipped Posluszny. BIG mistake!

Retired_Member_001
09-15-2008, 08:43 PM
Still pissed we skipped Posluszny. BIG mistake!

He was a second rounder, Jarvis was a first rounder, your point?

Not defending the Jarvis pick or anything, but I'm just saying.

WARHORSE
09-15-2008, 09:35 PM
But that could change with the Annual Scapegoating......


Yeah......especially after we win it all for the third time.:coffee:

SmilinAssasSin27
09-15-2008, 09:37 PM
He was a second rounder, Jarvis was a first rounder, your point?

Not defending the Jarvis pick or anything, but I'm just saying.

He was taken beginning of round 2, while we had a late 1st prior to trading up for Moss. who would you rather have right now? THAT is my point.

WARHORSE
09-15-2008, 09:41 PM
Looks to me like Moss should have been active after watching Rubbers sit in the pocket all day.

We'll see.............

red98
09-17-2008, 02:38 PM
Broncos to play DE Moss vs. Saints


ENGLEWOOD — The Broncos, desperately in need of a pass rush, will give second-year defensive end Jarvis Moss some playing time against New Orleans on Sunday.

Moss, Denver's first-round pick in the 2007 draft, has been a game-day inactive for the Broncos' first two games this season.

The University of Florida product missed 10 games last season because of a fractured lower right leg.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/sep/17/broncos-play-defensive-end-moss-vs-saints/

NightTrainLayne
09-17-2008, 02:43 PM
Broncos to play DE Moss vs. Saints


ENGLEWOOD — The Broncos, desperately in need of a pass rush, will give second-year defensive end Jarvis Moss some playing time against New Orleans on Sunday.

Moss, Denver's first-round pick in the 2007 draft, has been a game-day inactive for the Broncos' first two games this season.

The University of Florida product missed 10 games last season because of a fractured lower right leg.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/sep/17/broncos-play-defensive-end-moss-vs-saints/

Let's hope he becomes one of those guys who miraculously play better in the game than they do in practice all week.

G_Money
09-17-2008, 02:50 PM
Let's hope he becomes one of those guys who miraculously play better in the game than they do in practice all week.

:lol: This actually is my hope. That he starts to put it together on the actual playing field when the lights come on. There are just those players who need the adrenaline to play well - they don't bring it in practice.

And hey, sadly, maybe going up against Clady and Harris in practice could help him. They seem to be holding their own in pass protection against other team's 1st stringers just fine thus far. Nobody else is doing anything to get to the passer, so what's the harm in seeing what Moss can do with more playing time? Until of course they run Reggie Bush at him and he gets swallowed up by his blocker and can't hold the edge. :tsk:

I dunno man - Moss has never been a pick I've been happy with, but I'd much rather be wrong about him than have him prove me right and fail. Because holy hell do we need a pass rush from somewhere.

Now's as good a time as any to find out if he can bring any heat.

~G

haroldthebarrel
09-17-2008, 02:52 PM
my only hope is that he is one of the guys who shines if he only gets a chance.
Right now he is a bust in my opinion, and boy was I wrong on that pick.

red98
09-17-2008, 03:05 PM
Let's hope he becomes one of those guys who miraculously play better in the game than they do in practice all week.

I wanna see how they are going to get him in there. He can't play the LDE right now, not stout enough.

And he's not gonna beat out Doom at RDE cause he's not as good.

Maybe they rotate a little bit with Doom. Maybe they scheme him in on 3rd and longs, etc..


I'm really interested to see what Slowick is gonna do with him.

haroldthebarrel
09-17-2008, 03:06 PM
I wanna see how they are going to get him in there. He can't play the LDE right now, not stout enough.

And he's not gonna beat out Doom at RDE cause he's not as good.

Maybe they rotate a little bit with Doom. Maybe they scheme him in on 3rd and longs, etc..


I'm really interested to see what Slowick is gonna do with him.

good thoughts.

He is a stud in Madden and sucks in real life. It should be the opposite.

MOtorboat
09-17-2008, 03:08 PM
good thoughts.

He is a stud in Madden and sucks in real life. It should be the opposite.

LOL...he's actually pretty awesome in Madden...league sack leader two years running...

With that said...if Boss can't go...let's run him out there at SLB....

Run a 5-2! :woot: Old Big 12 Days...

haroldthebarrel
09-17-2008, 03:12 PM
LOL...he's actually pretty awesome in Madden...league sack leader two years running...

With that said...if Boss can't go...let's run him out there at SLB....

Run a 5-2! :woot: Old Big 12 Days...

ha you do that as well. I also like to blitz him from the strongside.

G_Money
09-17-2008, 03:13 PM
We might have a better chance with a front-line of Thomas and D-Rob and a "LB" corps of DJ, Doom, Webster, Woodyard and Moss.

Think we could start off the game with that look and see if we can get the Saints to burn a timeout?

~G

haroldthebarrel
09-17-2008, 03:15 PM
We might have a better chance with a front-line of Thomas and D-Rob and a "LB" corps of DJ, Doom, Webster, Woodyard and Moss.

Think we could start off the game with that look and see if we can get the Saints to burn a timeout?

~G

or do what I do in madden 09. Just put all the guys in zone coverage on third and long. BB in New England did that a lot a few years ago.

MOtorboat
09-17-2008, 03:16 PM
or do what I do in madden 09. Just put all the guys in zone coverage on third and long. BB in New England did that a lot a few years ago.

He stood up every player against the Colts a few years ago too.

tubby
09-17-2008, 03:17 PM
Let's hope he becomes one of those guys who miraculously play better in the game than they do in practice all week.

1.5 sacks.

haroldthebarrel
09-17-2008, 03:17 PM
He stood up every player against the Colts a few years ago too.

I dont understand what you mean? minor language difficulties I suppose.

G_Money
09-17-2008, 03:20 PM
He stood up every player against the Colts a few years ago too.

Our guys already stand around on defense. We've mastered that. :coffee:

~G

CoachChaz
09-17-2008, 03:22 PM
Play Crowder more at LDE. God forbid we give the kids a chance to do something. I'm not opposed to playing Moss at SLB and rushing him off the edge. Can't be worse than Boss or any of the other hacks out there.

MOtorboat
09-17-2008, 03:49 PM
I dont understand what you mean? minor language difficulties I suppose.

Sorry HTB...Belicheck had no players in a down-stance against the Colts, in order to confuse Pey, Pey. The Colts had no clue who was coming...they had seven in the box, and any of those guys could be coming. Actually quite brilliant, but its easy to run against, and that was the flaw...thus why I wouldn't actually advocate it for the Broncos to try.

Npba900
09-17-2008, 04:45 PM
Play Crowder more at LDE. God forbid we give the kids a chance to do something. I'm not opposed to playing Moss at SLB and rushing him off the edge. Can't be worse than Boss or any of the other hacks out there.

Interesting points. I for one think that Moss just might be playing out of position to a certain degree. Jarvis might be better utilized to play a position where his quickness and agility can be exploited vs making him take on stronger linemen.

MOtorboat
09-17-2008, 04:47 PM
Interesting points. I for one think that Moss just might be playing out of position to a certain degree. Jarvis might be better utilized to play a position where his quickness and agility can be exploited vs making him take on stronger linemen.

Yes.

Like in that system Bates was going to run that needed a rangy hybrid DE like Jason Taylor, or a 3-4.

haroldthebarrel
09-17-2008, 04:50 PM
I dont understand why we dont play him. The defense sucks. The guys at training camp said he was excellent at pursuit. He can rush the passer. He will get run over. But we will be both passed or run over anyway whether we play veterans or youngsters. What is there to loose.

MOtorboat
09-17-2008, 04:51 PM
I dont understand why we dont play him. The defense sucks. The guys at training camp said he was excellent at pursuit. He can rush the passer. He will get run over. But we will be both passed or run over anyway whether we play veterans or youngsters. What is there to loose.

Because Dumervil gets run over too, so two of four players of the d-line getting lost in the run-game is not a good thing.

haroldthebarrel
09-17-2008, 04:53 PM
Because Dumervil gets run over too, so two of four players of the d-line getting lost in the run-game is not a good thing.

but the point is that we are getting ran over anyway. We score, we need a pass rush to get the game out of reach. Surely he cannot be that bad can he?

MOtorboat
09-17-2008, 04:55 PM
but the point is that we are getting ran over anyway. We score, we need a pass rush to get the game out of reach. Surely he cannot be that bad can he?

Well, the problem against SD was screens and pass rush, so you might have a point...I dunno, the Raiders were able to run, the Chargers able to pass. Either way, we've got things we need to fix.

haroldthebarrel
09-17-2008, 04:57 PM
Well, the problem against SD was screens and pass rush, so you might have a point...I dunno, the Raiders were able to run, the Chargers able to pass. Either way, we've got things we need to fix.

dont you think the Chargers would have ran all over us had Tomlinson been healthy? I think so, but their gameplan showed that we could be passed on just as easily.

honz
09-17-2008, 05:05 PM
dont you think the Chargers would have ran all over us had Tomlinson been healthy? I think so, but their gameplan showed that we could be passed on just as easily.
We stuffed their running game on several occasions and I think our Run D has looked respectable this year. I think Engelberger has been our best DE so far just because of his contributions against the run. He is never going to be a very good pass rusher, but he is a pretty decent DE against the run. I think him and Doom is our best starting combo at DE, but we need to do something in order to get pressure on 3rd down and obvious passing situations...Moss could be the answer there.

Npba900
09-17-2008, 05:14 PM
I think Jarvis needs to just be out there on the field. Make him earn his 8 million dollar signing bonus. Who knows, he might play well. I just want to see him out there getting reps and getting experience. Hell bench if his motor is reving up with desire, but if this guys gets out there and hustle and shows a mean streak....so what if he makes mistakes----at least he's learning.

At the expense of possible playing mind games with Jarvis from the coaching staff.....practice performance and game performance are two entirely different scenarios.

Moss must be embarrassed as hell as well as may be loosing confidence by not being able to suit up and at least playing a few reps.

But then again, I can't help to think, that Moss is acting as if theres no sense of urgency of not dressing for games----question is should he be pissed off? Or is he really honoring/respecting the coaches decision not to play him--and just being a good team player?

Hopefully, Moss in in uniform and allowed a few reps against the N.O. Saints this week.

haroldthebarrel
09-17-2008, 05:18 PM
I think Jarvis needs to just be out there on the field. Make him earn his 8 million dollar signing bonus. Who knows, he might play well. I just want to see him out there getting reps and getting experience. Hell bench if his motor is reving up with desire, but if this guys gets out there and hustle and shows a mean streak....so what if he makes mistakes----at least he's learning.

At the expense of possible playing mind games with Jarvis from the coaching staff.....practice performance and game performance are two entirely different scenarios.

Moss must be embarrassed as hell as well as may be loosing confidence by not being able to suit up and at least playing a few reps.

But then again, I can't help to think, that Moss is acting as if theres no sense of urgency of not dressing for games----question is should he be pissed off? Or is he really honoring/respecting the coaches decision not to play him--and just being a good team player?

Hopefully, Moss in in uniform and allowed a few reps against the N.O. Saints this week.

Shanahan up until this year rarely started rookies over veterans since he wantt to win now.
A lot of these players became good because they got their shot due to injury.
Think of Kuper, C. Myers, R. Harris and a lot of others were all looked upon as busts/dissappointments until they got their shot and played well above what we thought they would.

Npba900
09-17-2008, 05:31 PM
Shanahan up until this year rarely started rookies over veterans since he wantt to win now.
A lot of these players became good because they got their shot due to injury.
Think of Kuper, C. Myers, R. Harris and a lot of others were all looked upon as busts/dissappointments until they got their shot and played well above what we thought they would.

Good points! The rash of injuries last season on the OL payed dividends for Kuper, Myers, and Harris.

BTW, Have you heard whether Jarvis will dress against N.O.?

underrated29
09-17-2008, 05:37 PM
yes he is playing, and he is pissed that he was benched the first two games.

I sure hope that translates to the field.

omac
09-17-2008, 05:51 PM
I think Jarvis needs to just be out there on the field. Make him earn his 8 million dollar signing bonus. Who knows, he might play well. I just want to see him out there getting reps and getting experience. Hell bench if his motor is reving up with desire, but if this guys gets out there and hustle and shows a mean streak....so what if he makes mistakes----at least he's learning.

At the expense of possible playing mind games with Jarvis from the coaching staff.....practice performance and game performance are two entirely different scenarios.

Moss must be embarrassed as hell as well as may be loosing confidence by not being able to suit up and at least playing a few reps.

But then again, I can't help to think, that Moss is acting as if theres no sense of urgency of not dressing for games----question is should he be pissed off? Or is he really honoring/respecting the coaches decision not to play him--and just being a good team player?

Hopefully, Moss in in uniform and allowed a few reps against the N.O. Saints this week.

His being out of uniform should light a fire under his butt; if he mopes instead of getting pissed and striving to start, then we got the wrong guy, no matter what abilities he might have. Everyone on this Bronco team has earned his spot on the roster by beating out someone else. That's why they have tough mindsets.

hamrob
09-17-2008, 06:43 PM
I get the feeling he has that Trevor Pryce mentality without the talent quite at that level.

Every article has to do with promises...I'm going to study harder...I'm going to watch more film or I can't gain wait but I will get stronger. Whatever dude!

Earn your money man!

That being said! whew! He did have a sack that last preseason game and he was getting steady pressure throughout the preseason. So maybe...he can actually show us fans why the heck we spent a 1st and 3rd for his sorry @$$!

SmilinAssasSin27
09-17-2008, 07:51 PM
If he can't get the weight up, do we dare try to switch him to OLB...or trade him to a team who runs a 3-4 defense?

omac
09-17-2008, 08:48 PM
If he can't get the weight up, do we dare try to switch him to OLB...or trade him to a team who runs a 3-4 defense?

That sounds like a good idea. I think we lined up once in a 3-4 against the Raiders; it was the time JaMarcus got confused. Maybe we can use a hybrid 3-4 on some passing downs and use him as a 4th LB.

WARHORSE
09-18-2008, 03:37 AM
Who is Moss agent?

Fan in Exile
09-18-2008, 08:30 AM
A 3-4 would be a bad idea because that was the scheme that Robertson couldn't handle in New York. Maybe if we only do it a little bit.

I think the problem with our scheme is trying to stop the run. This isn't the 70's for crying out loud. I think especialy with the personel that we have that the best plan for us is to jump out to an early lead and then rush the passer.

The plan to stop the run worked againts the Raiders because Russel couldn't do anything but we all saw how it failed against the chargers and I don't see it working against the Saints.

So I'm really happy about putting Moss into this game. Let's knock Brees down a lot and see how that works out.

broncofaninfla
09-18-2008, 08:39 AM
Moss is playing this weekend, let's hope he comes out in a vengance!

MOtorboat
09-18-2008, 12:01 PM
Moss is playing this weekend, let's hope he comes out in a vengance!

Did Shanahan say that in a presser? Because inactives don't come out until Sunday.

underrated29
09-18-2008, 12:05 PM
Somewhere in the "other site" they had a link for it, but i dont really care to track it down.

He will be playing though.

Requiem / The Dagda
09-18-2008, 12:06 PM
"Jarvis Moss and all 154 pounds of him are lined up wide playing the 7. . . here comes the snap. . . Moss rushes off the corner he engages with the tackle. . . KAPOW! -- He's down on the ground folks. . . It doesn't look like he's getting up. . . Flat as a pancake. . .

(Good Head East album, BTW -- Flat As A Pancake.)

LRtagger
09-18-2008, 12:54 PM
From Bill Williamson's blog yesterday


Denver

Jarvis Moss is set to make his 2008 debut and try to show he is not a first-round bust.

broncos9697
09-18-2008, 01:17 PM
"Jarvis Moss and all 154 pounds of him are lined up wide playing the 7. . . here comes the snap. . . Moss rushes off the corner he engages with the tackle. . . KAPOW! -- He's down on the ground folks. . . It doesn't look like he's getting up. . . Flat as a pancake. . .

(Good Head East album, BTW -- Flat As A Pancake.)

give him time....you all want to trade him why!!! he's a hell of a pass rusher he's getting two sacks this week-end

Requiem / The Dagda
09-18-2008, 01:34 PM
give him time....you all want to trade him why!!! he's a hell of a pass rusher he's getting two sacks this week-end

Should I hold my breath?