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Traveler
12-27-2010, 09:48 AM
Anyone else a little disappointed with all the references in the media that Xanders will be the GM and given more authority?

Even with Elway in the fold, I'd still prefer the team hire a GM that has experience and success in all phases of personnel acquisition including the hiring of coaches. Someone that has an eye for spotting talent in FA and the lower rounds of the draft.

Maybe I'm reading too much into the speculation. Just want the team to hire the best available, most talented, and expericed GM. Xanders doesn't fit that criteria IMO.

BeefStew25
12-27-2010, 09:51 AM
Yeah I wasn't all that excited about this news.

But at least he was here before McD, so he truly isn't one of McD's dudes.

Plus when I do the alphabet with my kids, I don't have to use x-ray or xylophone anymore.

HORSEPOWER 56
12-27-2010, 09:54 AM
Anyone else a little disappointed with all the references in the media that Xanders will be the GM and given more authority?

Even with Elway in the fold, I'd still prefer the team hire a GM that has experience and success in all phases of personnel acquisition including the hiring of coaches. Someone that has an eye for spotting talent in FA and the lower rounds of the draft.

Maybe I'm reading too much into the speculation. Just want the team to hire the best available, most talented, and expericed GM. Xanders doesn't fit that criteria IMO.

I think you're reading it correctly. I think the plan now is to keep Xanders on and give him "real" GM powers to be overseen by Elway and Ellis. Not exactly what I was hoping for. Why is Ellis involved at all? He knows as much about football as I do about running a multi-billion dollar corporation... very little.

BeefStew25
12-27-2010, 09:57 AM
Ellis is the devil.

Nomad
12-27-2010, 10:00 AM
Ellis is the devil.

Did Momma say that!!:D

Dzone
12-27-2010, 10:02 AM
Theyre fixin to have xanders on 877 in a few minutes

BeefStew25
12-27-2010, 10:02 AM
Did Momma say that!!:D

Yes. Two things:

1) Wear clean underwear
2) Keep an eye on people who keep getting promoted without really having accomplished anything. So, Ellis and Barry are the devil.

BigSarge87
12-27-2010, 10:11 AM
Trying to find a reason to be okay with this...

Maybe he hasn't really been given a chance to function as a true GM. Honestly, what did he do for the last two years besides player contracts? Didn't McD make all the decisions about personnel?

Hopefully the new organization of executives will be able to balance each other out and the GM will be able to make decisions based on several opinions instead of what the head coach insists. I don't see the problem keeping him on at least a year to see how he does without McD around.

Dzone
12-27-2010, 10:13 AM
^LOL...
This Xanders cat sounds very good in the radio interview. He has some serious experience. Even worked under Bobby Beathard...He said he has a PhD in football...sounds like he is doing a job interview...Sounds like he knows his stuff...this is a great interview...Ok, we can keep xanders

BeefStew25
12-27-2010, 10:14 AM
At the JAX game he was wearing a cheap suit. Just saying.

HORSEPOWER 56
12-27-2010, 10:15 AM
Well, I think that adds Jim Mora Jr to the list of prospective candidates. Xanders and Mora go way back and Mora has had nothing but good things to say about Xanders throughout this season and McDaniels controversy.

I'm sure Xanders will at least get his old buddy an interview, much like I expect Elway to get his ol' buddy Kubiak one. Hopefully, we go in a different direction. I'd be happy to have Kubes back as the OC, just not the HC.

Dzone
12-27-2010, 10:16 AM
xanders when asked about Peyton hilis said 'Im going to leave that one alone. there are things I would rather not say."...Hmmmmmmmmmm there are things that we dont know about Hillis...Bad practice player and he fumbled too much? Couldnt grasp the playbook. If he wasnt given the ball in practice he didnt play hard...just typing what gary miller is saying that he heard from the coaches.

They said to xanders "We want to ask you about the most polarizing figure who is no longer with the team" Xanders said 'Oh, Peyton Hillis?"

BeefStew25
12-27-2010, 10:18 AM
I don't mind Xanders throwing McD under the bus. A matter of fact, I wish he would do it more often.

frauschieze
12-27-2010, 10:23 AM
xanders when asked about Peyton hilis said 'Im going to leave that one alone. there are things I would rather not say."...Hmmmmmmmmmm there are things that we dont know about Hillis...Bad practice player and he fumbled too much? Couldnt grasp the playbook. If he wasnt given the ball in practice he didnt play hard...just typing what gary miller is saying that he heard from the coaches.

They said to xanders "We want to ask you about the most polarizing figure who is no longer with the team" Xanders said 'Oh, Peyton Hillis?"

Or....

That was one of the trades McD executed without talking to Xanders.

That makes just as much sense as anything else. There are a million possibilities why he doesn't want to talk about Hillis, and at least half of them have nothing to do with Hillis himself. *shrugs*

broncofaninfla
12-27-2010, 10:25 AM
I was hoping for a proven GM. I really don't know Xanders body of work. How much was he to blame for the past two years? Hard to believe it was all Mcd but maybe it was?
Are there any transcripts availabe from this interview?

Dzone
12-27-2010, 10:33 AM
^He was with Atlanta when they went to the super bowl against us in 1999...

Jeff lEGWOLD COMING ON 877 NOW. HE WAS CRITICAL OF TEBow on the channel 4 pre game show

Lancane
12-27-2010, 11:02 AM
I don't mind Xanders throwing McD under the bus. A matter of fact, I wish he would do it more often.

He has to throw him under the bus Stew, it's either that or he has to be tied at the hip to him in the eyes of the fans. Right now this organization is in damage control mode, McDaniels is taking the blunt of the blame and Ellis is second, Xanders wants to retain his job...so if Ellis is on the outs as some truly think, then he'll be the next tossed under the tires of that big yellow bus as well.

I'm concerned that Xanders may indeed be retaining any sort of General Manager position in regards to player personnel, after all the General Manager group he was involved with the most in Atlanta made some very horrid draft decisions! I'd rather see him given another position quite honestly, but if he is the next General Manager, then we'd better be prepared for the worst.

BeefStew25
12-27-2010, 11:04 AM
He has to throw him under the bus Stew, it's either that or he has to be tied at the hip to him in the eyes of the fans. Right now this organization is in damage control mode, McDaniels is taking the blunt of the blame and Ellis is second, Xanders wants to retain his job...so if Ellis is on the outs as some truly think, then he'll be the next tossed under the tires of that big yellow bus as well.

I'm concerned that Xanders may indeed be retaining any sort of General Manager position in regards to player personnel, after all the General Manager group he was involved with the most in Atlanta made some very horrid draft decisions! I'd rather see him given another position quite honestly, but if he is the next General Manager, then we'd better be prepared for the worst.

He needs to be cap nerd only.

Lancane
12-27-2010, 11:19 AM
He needs to be cap nerd only.

Agreed, that seems to be where his skill-set is best utilized, hell...why not fire Ellis and name Xanders to the Chief of Operations position? I'd rather promote Keith Kidd to the General Manager position quite honestly. There are a lot of good, solid reasons to keep Xanders, he's a good administrator, finance specialist and contract negotiator, but we need someone who literally knows talent both at the Pro and Collegiate level as a General Manager.

Tned
12-27-2010, 11:24 AM
I think you're reading it correctly. I think the plan now is to keep Xanders on and give him "real" GM powers to be overseen by Elway and Ellis. Not exactly what I was hoping for. Why is Ellis involved at all? He knows as much about football as I do about running a multi-billion dollar corporation... very little.

I think you give yourself way too much credit. Unless you've worked for the Broncos for a combined 15 years both in the '80s and again now since he came back in '97, and worked for the NFL league office in NYC for a decade, I REALLY doubt you know more about football and the NFL than Joe Ellis.

BeefStew25
12-27-2010, 11:26 AM
I think you give yourself way too much credit. Unless you've worked for the Broncos for a combined 15 years both in the '80s and again now since he came back in '97, and worked for the NFL league office in NYC for a decade, I REALLY doubt you know more about football and the NFL than Joe Ellis.

I think he does. Ellis is the business guy. A suit. And, probably the devil.

HORSEPOWER 56
12-27-2010, 11:27 AM
I think you give yourself way too much credit. Unless you've worked for the Broncos for a combined 15 years both in the '80s and again now since he came back in '97, and worked for the NFL league office in NYC for a decade, I REALLY doubt you know more about football and the NFL than Joe Ellis.

He hired McDaniels and went along with all of his foolhardy trades and drafts, didn't he? Only Ellis and Bowlen had veto power over McDaniels. Honestly, personnel wise, I think half the folks on this board could've made better decisions...

Tned
12-27-2010, 11:31 AM
He hired McDaniels and went along with all of his foolhardy trades and drafts, didn't he? Only Ellis and Bowlen had veto power over McDaniels. Honestly, personnel wise, I think half the folks on this board could've made better decisions...

No, he didn't. So, clearly you don't even know much about the Broncos, yet are passing judgement on it's front office people.

Pat Bowlen made the decision to hire McDaniels. That is VERY well documented. Do a little research or come up with a real reason to trash the guy.

Yes, he and Bowlen made a big mistake in giving him full control, but lets face it, at the time, EVERY one of McDaniels dumb ass moves could be justified and explained. Shit, well more than half of this board and Broncos nation were VIOLENTLY defending him, because each of his moves could be justified. Taken in total, looking back, it's easy to see the total wreck, and some of us complained a lot along the way, but the fact is that the only one he was trashed in the press about is Cutler, and that's the one most Broncos fans are ok with (along with Marshall).

Lonestar
12-27-2010, 11:45 AM
IIRC scouts and head of scouting are supposed to know what to in evaluating talent the position coaches should also be the loop as evaluators.

Now while I would love to have a pioli or newsome type experienced proven GM. But I think that xman can be that guy.
Now he is going to need help from John and Pat picking the new HC and inturn with his help the other assistants. But as a group I have no doubt they can find players. It is a team sport afterall.
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Lancane
12-27-2010, 12:01 PM
IIRC scouts and head of scouting are supposed to know what to in evaluating talent the position coaches should also be the loop as evaluators.

Now while I would love to have a pioli or newsome type experienced proven GM. But I think that xman can be that guy.
Now he is going to need help from John and Pat picking the new HC and inturn with his help the other assistants. But as a group I have no doubt they can find players. It is a team sport afterall.
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Team sport yes...team management doesn't always work though and that is a fact. I like Xanders, so I'm not going to go ape-shit if he does get the position, but he lacks the talent evaluation that you need in that capacity and proof of that is what we saw in Atlanta when he was their personnel evaluator. And scouts only scout, give a list of talent they are keen on, there is a difference, those of the scouting department may ask questions...but a General Manager has to know all the right questions to ask when he is face to face with these kids. And Atlanta drafted some poor character guys when he helped in that capacity there. I understand the point you were trying to make though.

Slick
12-27-2010, 12:04 PM
He needs to be cap nerd only.

Agreed.

...and I'm not going to over react or speculate wildly on what we do to get the house in order.

We´ll find out soon.

BeefStew25
12-27-2010, 12:08 PM
Agreed.

...and I'm not going to over react or speculate wildly on what we do to get the house in order.

We´ll find out soon.

I think having an even keel in rough waters is something we all need after the last hire.

Maybe formulate a Bronco Breathing Technique to deal with all the stress.

Slick
12-27-2010, 12:28 PM
I think having an even keel in rough waters is something we all need after the last hire.

Maybe formulate a Bronco Breathing Technique to deal with all the stress.

Breathe slowly and deeply. Never hold your breath.

Tned
12-27-2010, 12:43 PM
Thread is closed while the off-topic/lounge material is removed. When it is reopened, stick to the thread topic.

Thx

Lonestar
12-27-2010, 01:03 PM
Team sport yes...team management doesn't always work though and that is a fact. I like Xanders, so I'm not going to go ape-shit if he does get the position, but he lacks the talent evaluation that you need in that capacity and proof of that is what we saw in Atlanta when he was their personnel evaluator. And scouts only scout, give a list of talent they are keen on, there is a difference, those of the scouting department may ask questions...but a General Manager has to know all the right questions to ask when he is face to face with these kids. And Atlanta drafted some poor character guys when he helped in that capacity there. I understand the point you were trying to make though.


That is the KEY point he helped the GM.
He saw what to do and what NOT to do.

It all hinges on the next HC, they would have to work together.

I have seen GMs that drafted talent the HC did not want and therefore for the most part DID NOT USE.

So while he may have been s superb player if he never sees the field it is MOOT.

Then there are GM's that do not know the butt from a hole in the wall and the coaches are hamstrung for the lack of talent.

I have mixed emotions on the next GM and have to trust John Joe and Pat to make the right decision. I like Xman only because he knows the broncos and it current players slash coaches.

If I could get Parcells for a couple of years (seems that is all he is good for now) I'd love for him to mentor Xman.

But I also believe that John will be doing more than giving inspired speeches every so often also.:laugh:

BeefStew25
12-27-2010, 01:06 PM
If I could get Parcells for a couple of years (seems that is all he is good for now) I'd love for him to mentor Xman.



Why? what had Parcells done in the last decade? Seriously.

Traveler
12-27-2010, 01:07 PM
Let me preface what I'm about to say with this: It's not my intention to turn this into another Cutler/McDaniels argument.

My main objection to Xanders as possible GM stems for his lack of involvement during both the Cutler/Marshall issues. My understanding was privately, Bowlen was extremely pissed at McDaniels for creating the mess with Cutler and Xanders for not being more involved in quelling the situation like an experienced GM would have. That's why the issue drug out for an extended period of time. It finally ended when Bowlen made the decision the get rid of our former QB.

An experienced GM would have done wonders in that regard. He would have known how to properly deal with the issue between the HC and player. Maybe Xanders learned a little something from that episode when Marshall began his circus act. Who knows?

With the exception of Elway, I just prefer a fresh start from both the Shanahan & McDaniels regimes. Build the foundation of a new "Bronco Way".

dogfish
12-27-2010, 01:16 PM
Anyone else a little disappointed with all the references in the media that Xanders will be the GM and given more authority?



disappointed?

i'm absolutely ****ing crushed-- this shit makes my soul hurt. . .

bowlen just ass-raped the fanbase again. . .

BeefStew25
12-27-2010, 01:18 PM
disappointed?

i'm absolutely ****ing crushed-- this shit makes my soul hurt. . .

bowlen just ass-raped the fanbase again. . .

Bowlen drifts in and out of lucid thoughts.

Joe Ellis is all over this. He is saving a buck. Once again.

dogfish
12-27-2010, 01:21 PM
Bowlen drifts in and out of lucid thoughts.

Joe Ellis is all over this. He is saving a buck. Once again.

no doubt. . . the stench of wormtongue hovers over this franchise like dog breath. . .

BeefStew25
12-27-2010, 01:22 PM
no doubt. . . the stench of wormtongue hovers over this franchise like dog breath. . .

He wants a lap dog. That is what Xerox is. Nothing more.

BigDaddyBronco
12-27-2010, 01:24 PM
disappointed?

i'm absolutely ****ing crushed-- this shit makes my soul hurt. . .

bowlen just ass-raped the fanbase again. . .

Step 1 of my fears might be coming true. This team can't be fixed only by coaching, it has to come from a good player-personnel guy.

Next a cheap, young, offensive minded HC who doesn't give a damn about the defense....

Elevation inc
12-27-2010, 01:27 PM
Let me preface what I'm about to say with this: It's not my intention to turn this into another Cutler/McDaniels argument.

My main objection to Xanders as possible GM stems for his lack of involvement during both the Cutler/Marshall issues. My understanding was privately, Bowlen was extremely pissed at McDaniels for creating the mess with Cutler and Xanders for not being more involved in quelling the situation like an experienced GM would have. That's why the issue drug out for an extended period of time. It finally ended when Bowlen made the decision the get rid of our former QB.

An experienced GM would have done wonders in that regard. He would have known how to properly deal with the issue between the HC and player. Maybe Xanders learned a little something from that episode when Marshall began his circus act. Who knows?

With the exception of Elway, I just prefer a fresh start from both the Shanahan & McDaniels regimes. Build the foundation of a new "Bronco Way".

im not so sure, jim goodman was pretty adamant about the cutler thing being crappy and it got him shipped outta town.....by ellis??? by MCD????? who knows anymore what to believe, honestly give Xanders the gig for a year, he knows the draft, he has been around the inner workings of the draft process for years and how to work it now with trades, he knows contracts and how to make extensions team friendly, and he is adamant about needing defense next year, sounds like while he isnt the sexy pick, he may do just fine....its not great but its a hell of a lot better than bringing in Casserly or bringing back sundquist.....

Nomad
12-27-2010, 01:27 PM
Step 1 of my fears might be coming true. This team can't be fixed only by coaching, it has to come from a good player-personnel guy.

Next a cheap, young, offensive minded HC who doesn't give a damn about the defense....

What's a defense....signed Bowlen:drinking:?!?!!:D

dogfish
12-27-2010, 01:47 PM
Step 1 of my fears might be coming true. This team can't be fixed only by coaching, it has to come from a good player-personnel guy.

Next a cheap, young, offensive minded HC who doesn't give a damn about the defense....

they'll get that little bitch jason garrett if jerruh goes for a big name instead, but if he's not available it'll be some no-name or soft sister retread that they can push around, like jim fossil, wade philips, or most likely kubiak. . .

the days of bean counters and yes-men running dove valley are alive and well. . .

BigDaddyBronco
12-27-2010, 01:51 PM
they'll get that little bitch jason garrett if jerruh goes for a big name instead, but if he's not available it'll be some no-name or soft sister retread that they can push around, like jim fossil, wade philips, or most likely kubiak. . .

the days of bean counters and yes-men running dove valley are alive and well. . .
Like I said, McD had issues and need to mature, but it wasn't all his fault we are where we are today.

I still blame Bowlen for being cheap and looking for the cheapest way to fill the seats without having to pay for a real organization. Here we go again.

HORSEPOWER 56
12-27-2010, 01:59 PM
No, he didn't. So, clearly you don't even know much about the Broncos, yet are passing judgement on it's front office people.

Pat Bowlen made the decision to hire McDaniels. That is VERY well documented. Do a little research or come up with a real reason to trash the guy.

Yes, he and Bowlen made a big mistake in giving him full control, but lets face it, at the time, EVERY one of McDaniels dumb ass moves could be justified and explained. Shit, well more than half of this board and Broncos nation were VIOLENTLY defending him, because each of his moves could be justified. Taken in total, looking back, it's easy to see the total wreck, and some of us complained a lot along the way, but the fact is that the only one he was trashed in the press about is Cutler, and that's the one most Broncos fans are ok with (along with Marshall).

Yes, he did. It's public knowledge that Ellis himself did the final interview. It's also publicly known that McDaniels himself and Bowlen both said that McDaniels didn't have "complete autonomy" when all the bad trades and draft happened last year. That Bowlen and Ellis were part of some kind of triumvirate brainchild of personnel management and had the final word over McDaniels' hair brained scheming. Meaning, to me, they condoned what he was doing with personnel. Remember the "Mr Bowlen's and Mr Ellis' offices are right down the hall from mine and we discuss all personnel moves", admission from McDaniels last year? It was the time when all of us who said Xanders was just a numbers guy and a puppet were shown to be justified in our beliefs.

Stop trying to act you you don't know. You're one of the most well informed and up to date guys here. Ellis has felt the same venom from this fanbase as McDaniels has because of the piss poor personnel decisions and now it looks as if he's making another by just giving Xanders "a little more power" and rolling from there. It looks like a terrible case of cronyism (because Xanders has never seemed to stand up for his own convictions as evidenced by the fact he's only now throwing wood onto the McDaniels' funeral pyre) and penny pinching.

Pat and Joe's "idea" appears to be to bring in Elway to:
1) invest huge sums of money in the organization for part ownership

and

2)Kind of ride shotgun over Xanders who've they've decided to make a real full-fledged GM, who still has to answer to Bowlen, Ellis, and Elway but will have more power in personnel decisions than the next HC.

Am I missing something here? Why are you all over my ass about this? Is this what you wanted or envisioned? It's the same shit we've had for 2 years except instead of Bowlen (spoken: Ellis) and McDaniels making all the decisions, it's now going to be Bowlen (spoken: Ellis), Elway, and Xanders. Do you really see this as much improvement?

Lancane
12-27-2010, 02:14 PM
Step 1 of my fears might be coming true. This team can't be fixed only by coaching, it has to come from a good player-personnel guy.

Next a cheap, young, offensive minded HC who doesn't give a damn about the defense....

And BigDaddy, you may be more right then anyone else. Gary Kubiak might actually be done in Houston, the media has risen up against him as have the fans, IE McDaniels. And there is heady talks about Cowher to be the next head coach with Wade Phillips as the defensive Coordinator for them.

That would mean that Kubiak may jump up to the top slot on the list of head coaching candidates, unless Dallas hires him officially as the offensive coordinator which is a big possibility as well.

Tned
12-27-2010, 02:17 PM
Yes, he did. It's public knowledge that Ellis himself did the final interview.

Dude, you're wrong. Bowlen, Ellis, Xanders and Goodman met with McDaniels in the Boston area. Bowlen decided he was the guy. They sent Ellis to do a follow up interview primarily to asnwer McDaniels questions, and cover any outstanding details and then Pat Bowlen called him and offered him the job.

If you can't remember this stuff, do a little research before making false statements.


It's also publicly known that McDaniels himself and Bowlen both said that McDaniels didn't have "complete autonomy" when all the bad trades and draft happened last year. That Bowlen and Ellis were part of some kind of triumvirate brainchild of personnel management and had the final word over McDaniels' hair brained scheming. Meaning, to me, they condoned what he was doing with personnel. Remember the "Mr Bowlen's and Mr Ellis' offices are right down the hall from mine and we discuss all personnel moves", admission from McDaniels last year? It was the time when all of us who said Xanders was just a numbers guy and a puppet were shown to be justified in our beliefs.

I said from day one that the Goodmans were fired that McDaniels was in full control at that point, and Xanders would not be calling the shots, or would be a rubber stamp for McDaniels. The beat reporters confirmed that some time later. That was an error in judgement by Bowlen and Ellis, which they have admitted. They bought so heavily into what McDaniels was selling, that they fell back into the Shanahan model, because that's what had worked in the past.


Stop trying to act you you don't know. You're one of the most well informed and up to date guys here. Ellis has felt the same venom from this fanbase as McDaniels has because of the piss poor personnel decisions and now it looks as if he's making another by just giving Xanders "a little more power" and rolling from there. It looks like a terrible case of cronyism (because Xanders has never seemed to stand up for his own convictions as evidenced by the fact he's only now throwing wood onto the McDaniels' funeral pyre) and penny pinching.

Yes, I am informed and have been around, so I know the need, addiction like need, of fans to have a new whipping boy, someone to hate. Ellis and Xanders are the guys most people are focusing on these days.

I freely admit that Bowlen and/or Ellis (as the balance of power is not clear) made a very bad mistake. An understandable one, based on the fact that Josh seemed like he was a boy genius, and it's what Bowlen had done with his previous coaches, but a mistake none the less.

The crazy thing is that you want Bowlen to do to his front office EXACTLY what McDaniels did to ruin the Broncos roster, go scorched earch and start over. You do that and odds are you are worse off, not better. Making clear, well thought out changes with a purpose, makes much more sense.


Pat and Joe's "idea" appears to be to bring in Elway to:
1) invest huge sums of money in the organization for part ownership

There is ZERO evidence of this, other than a Glazer Tweet about Elway talking about an ownership stake. Something that we don't even know if it can happen, based on the agreement with Kaiser. Bowlen came close to having to seel 10% of the club back to Kaiser for just 'offering' Elway the opportunity 10+ years ago.

Beyond that, there is no evidence that Elway has 'huge sums of money' to invest.


and

2)Kind of ride shotgun over Xanders who've they've decided to make a real full-fledged GM, who still has to answer to Bowlen, Ellis, and Elway but will have more power in personnel decisions than the next HC.

Hey, looks like you got one right. ;)


Am I missing something here? Why are you all over my ass about this? Is this what you wanted or envisioned? It's the same shit we've had for 2 years except instead of Bowlen (spoken: Ellis) and McDaniels making all the decisions, it's now going to be Bowlen (spoken: Ellis), Elway, and Xanders. Do you really see this as much improvement?

Improvement? Yes, because clearly McDaniels was over his head? Best option? I don't know. Expecting? I figured something like this was the most likely scenario. We still don't know if this will be the structure, but it won't surprise me if it is.

As to being all over your ass, you are making false statements and calling them facts. I'm simply pointing those out. If you need someone to hate, I hear Kim Jong Il is a really bad dude and deserves some hate.

Superchop 7
12-27-2010, 02:19 PM
The model I wanted involved getting the Goodmans back to do what they do best.....find players.

Lancane
12-27-2010, 02:27 PM
im not so sure, jim goodman was pretty adamant about the cutler thing being crappy and it got him shipped outta town.....by ellis??? by MCD????? who knows anymore what to believe, honestly give Xanders the gig for a year, he knows the draft, he has been around the inner workings of the draft process for years and how to work it now with trades, he knows contracts and how to make extensions team friendly, and he is adamant about needing defense next year, sounds like while he isnt the sexy pick, he may do just fine....its not great but its a hell of a lot better than bringing in Casserly or bringing back sundquist.....

You do know that of the sixteen drafts that he's been a part of for any organization that they have traded five first round picks for lesser picks and little value in return? AI Alphonso Smith! He was also part of personnel staff who did it four times in Atlanta. And they also were known for drafting busts or questionable character athletes IE Vick and Hall, or Bushing and Duckett!

Not the best qualifications for being someone supposedly knowing the draft process and how to trade, cause it don't mean shit without knowing about character, ability or talent. It's just like taking a fat kid to a health food store, he sees things that look good but doesn't know shit otherwise.

:lol:

Traveler
12-27-2010, 02:34 PM
That would mean that Kubiak may jump up to the top slot on the list of head coaching candidates, unless Dallas hires him officially as the offensive coordinator which is a big possibility as well.

Maybe...

Per the interview this morning on Vic & Gary, according to Jeff Legwold, the Broncos' first choice for HC would be Jim Harbaugh. But, Legwold seems to think Harbaugh is headed to Michigan.

Harbaugh would be my first choice too!

HORSEPOWER 56
12-27-2010, 02:35 PM
they'll get that little bitch jason garrett if jerruh goes for a big name instead, but if he's not available it'll be some no-name or soft sister retread that they can push around, like jim fossil, wade philips, or most likely kubiak. . .

the days of bean counters and yes-men running dove valley are alive and well. . .


You do know that of the sixteen drafts that he's been a part of for any organization that they have traded five first round picks for lesser picks and little value in return? AI Alphonso Smith! He was also part of personnel staff who did it four times in Atlanta. And they also were known for drafting busts or questionable character athletes IE Vick and Hall, or Bushing and Duckett!

Not the best qualifications for being someone supposedly knowing the draft process and how to trade, cause it don't mean shit without knowing about character, ability or talent. It's just like taking a fat kid to a health food store, he sees things that look good but doesn't know shit otherwise.

:lol:

Thanks you so much for bringing up those wonderful draft busts! Now, why don't you give me a paper cut and pour lemon juice on it?

I really don't think I'm going to be as excited about this offseason as I once thought I was. If this stuff is true about Xanders, it makes me feel cheated and lied to by the ownership.

HORSEPOWER 56
12-27-2010, 02:46 PM
As to being all over your ass, you are making false statements and calling them facts. I'm simply pointing those out. If you need someone to hate, I hear Kim Jong Il is a really bad dude and deserves some hate.


It seems I am the only one being targeted here by you with all the "hate" flying around on this thread by many posters, but whatever. You can sit there and tell me it was all Bowlen and continue to try to separate Ellis and Xanders from McDaniels' mistakes if you'd like. But riddle me this, Batman...

When Josh McDaniels was fired, who gave the official announcement? Who gave the press conference? The Owner? Who I would expect if the HC is getting fired? Nope. The GM? The other guy I would expect if the owner was a "hands off" guy with a strong GM like in SD? Nope.

It was JOE ELLIS. As a matter of fact, most press conferences or statements that are normally a matter for the owner or GM to address are addressed now by JOE ELLIS. The bottom line is this. JOE ELLIS is now running the Broncos. JOE ELLIS is making the important decisions and JOE ELLIS believes in Brian Xanders as our GM, the same guy who had a hand in tearing this team down. This, my friend, makes me doubt the sincerity of the Broncos actually trying to improve and that is my entire reason for "hating" him.

Tned
12-27-2010, 02:49 PM
It seems I am the only one being targeted here by you with all the "hate" flying around on this thread by many posters, but whatever. You can sit there and tell me it was all Bowlen and continue to try to separate Ellis and Xanders from McDaniels' mistakes if you'd like. But riddle me this, Batman...

When Josh McDaniels was fired, who gave the official announcement? Who gave the press conference? The Owner? Who I would expect if the HC is getting fired? Nope. The GM? The other guy I would expect if the owner was a "hands off" guy with a strong GM like in SD? Nope.

It was JOE ELLIS. As a matter of fact, most press conferences or statements that are normally a matter for the owner or GM to address are addressed now by JOE ELLIS. The bottom line is this. JOE ELLIS is now running the Broncos. JOE ELLIS is making the important decisions and JOE ELLIS believes in Brian Xanders as our GM, the same guy who had a hand in tearing this team down. This, my friend, makes me doubt the sincerity of the Broncos actually trying to improve and that is my entire reason for "hating" him.

To bastardise a quote from the great Red Dawn....

I hope that hate keeps you warm at night.

HORSEPOWER 56
12-27-2010, 02:58 PM
To bastardise a quote from the great Red Dawn....

I hope that hate keeps you warm at night.

Actually, the line was "Boy, all that Hate is gonna burn you up", to which the reply was, "it keeps me warm". Red Dawn was one of my childhood faves.

Anyway though, you're confusing dislike with "hate" again. Once again, I'm just a spoiled fan who wants things to go their way... who doesn't? If we didn't come here to celebrate, whine, bitch, complain, "love", and "hate", you wouldn't have much to do running a MB, now would you? You'd spend a lot of time on this wonderful MB you've created (which we're all very grateful for, I assure you) talking to yourself, methinks.

I don't like the direction the front office appears to want to go in in regards to the GM position and I blame Joe Ellis because I think he's the "Grand Poohbah" puppet master behind the entire debacle that is the Broncos since Shanahan left. That's all.

jhildebrand
12-27-2010, 03:00 PM
xanders when asked about Peyton hilis said 'Im going to leave that one alone. there are things I would rather not say

I don't see how anybody could be supportive of Xanders being a true GM in light of these comments!

This was a golden opportunity for the Broncos organization as a whole to put the whole Hillis situation behind them once and for all. It was also an opportunity for Xanders to endear himself to the fans to some degree as well.

GM's often have to answer tough questions that the fanbase sometimes doesn't want to hear. Xanders refusal to do so tells me he is either not comfortable enough doing that; or, it is the same code of silence crap we fans have been treated to during the McDaniels regime.

If Xanders TRULY had no real authority over McDaniels, and he wants to continue to distance himself from the former coach then this was his chance to do it.

I just don't see it in the guy and it is my personal opinion that this team is better off completely cleaning house. Bowlen and Ellis are close and I get that. Move Ellis back to non-football operations!

jhildebrand
12-27-2010, 03:06 PM
It seems I am the only one being targeted here by you with all the "hate" flying around on this thread by many posters, but whatever. You can sit there and tell me it was all Bowlen and continue to try to separate Ellis and Xanders from McDaniels' mistakes if you'd like. But riddle me this, Batman...

When Josh McDaniels was fired, who gave the official announcement? Who gave the press conference? The Owner? Who I would expect if the HC is getting fired? Nope. The GM? The other guy I would expect if the owner was a "hands off" guy with a strong GM like in SD? Nope.

It was JOE ELLIS. As a matter of fact, most press conferences or statements that are normally a matter for the owner or GM to address are addressed now by JOE ELLIS. The bottom line is this. JOE ELLIS is now running the Broncos. JOE ELLIS is making the important decisions and JOE ELLIS believes in Brian Xanders as our GM, the same guy who had a hand in tearing this team down. This, my friend, makes me doubt the sincerity of the Broncos actually trying to improve and that is my entire reason for "hating" him.

I don't think you are too far off here Horsepower. It seems pretty evident to me that there is a bit of a power struggle at the highest levels at Dove Valley.

We all know that Ellis tried to sincerely separate himself from McDaniels after the firing despite all the well known interviews and articles where Ellis himself took the credit for the hire. Now with McDaniels gone we see a guy who is no longer "comfortable seeing his name in the press" every day and a guy who is trying to keep those who have an allegiance to him in place and with some power.

I think it is being done because John Elway is a such a large presence and that scares Ellis. He is no longer the lone sherriff over there and the writing is on the wall.

I just hope someone can get enough of Bowlen's ear and encourage a fresh start across the board.

Tned
12-27-2010, 03:08 PM
Actually, the line was "Boy, all that Hate is gonna burn you up", to which the reply was, "it keeps me warm". Red Dawn was one of my childhood faves.

I know, that's why I said I was going to bastardize it. I morphed the two together to fit the post.


Anyway though, you're confusing dislike with "hate" again.

I directly responded to you using the word "hating"


Once again, I'm just a spoiled fan who wants things to go their way... who doesn't? If we didn't come here to celebrate, whine, bitch, complain, "love", and "hate", you wouldn't have much to do running a MB, now would you? You'd spend a lot of time on this wonderful MB you've created (which we're all very grateful for, I assure you) talking to yourself, methinks.

Nahh, I would stop wasting so much time and money, and go read people whine, bitch and complain somewhere else.


I don't like the direction the front office appears to want to go in in regards to the GM position and I blame Joe Ellis because I think he's the "Grand Poohbah" puppet master behind the entire debacle that is the Broncos since Shanahan left. That's all.

Since I'm not in the office at Dove Valley on a daily basis, I don't know if he's a puppet master or Grand Poohbah, and if the front office shakes out the way Paige says, then we'll get a chance to see whether or not it was the right move or a mistake.

Lancane
12-27-2010, 03:11 PM
Maybe...

Per the interview this morning on Vic & Gary, according to Jeff Legwold, the Broncos' first choice for HC would be Jim Harbaugh. But, Legwold seems to think Harbaugh is headed to Michigan.

Harbaugh would be my first choice too!

Jeff Legwold is guessing, it wasn't three weeks back that he and the rest were declaring that McDaniels was absolutely safe and would return, no matter the spy-gate incident and so forth, let's be honest...they're about as informative as Patrino is about the NFL!

"Bowlen would like to hire someone tied to the organization or at least to the state of Colorado" per inside sources which was quoted three weeks back in an article on an interview with Ellis. "I want to get back to Broncos football" Bowlen said right after firing McDaniels. Harbaugh has no ties to Denver or the staff, give Elway and why would he come on board and be stuck with Tim Tebow who he'd be gambling his coaching career on? I'm not saying it's impossible...but I don't see why the job would be interesting to a coach who really will have his pick of jobs at either level and especially after the fiasco we just had with a rookie head coach. I think Billick would be hired by Denver before Harbaugh in all truthfulness and Harbaugh is high on San Fran's and San Diego's list of possible coaches? I just don't see a marriage between us and him happening.

Tned
12-27-2010, 03:12 PM
I don't think you are too far off here Horsepower. It seems pretty evident to me that there is a bit of a power struggle at the highest levels at Dove Valley.

We all know that Ellis tried to sincerely separate himself from McDaniels after the firing despite all the well known interviews and articles where Ellis himself took the credit for the hire. Now with McDaniels gone we see a guy who is no longer "comfortable seeing his name in the press" every day and a guy who is trying to keep those who have an allegiance to him in place and with some power.

I think it is being done because John Elway is a such a large presence and that scares Ellis. He is no longer the lone sherriff over there and the writing is on the wall.

I just hope someone can get enough of Bowlen's ear and encourage a fresh start across the board.

Actually, maybe there were interviews and articles where Ellis took credit for the hiring of McDaniels, I don't read every one, so it's possible. What I do know is that at the time he said it was Pat's decision, and that Pat called and hired McDaniels. So, what I have read from day one seems to be in conflict with what you have read.

Lancane
12-27-2010, 03:22 PM
Actually, maybe there were interviews and articles where Ellis took credit for the hiring of McDaniels, I don't read every one, so it's possible. What I do know is that at the time he said it was Pat's decision, and that Pat called and hired McDaniels. So, what I have read from day one seems to be in conflict with what you have read.

It was also supposedly Pat Bowlen's decision to fire McDaniels, but it was leaked days later that supposedly Joe Ellis was the deciding factor in terminating Josh's employment with the organization? Joe Ellis interviewed the candidates more then Bowlen did Tned, it's sad but very true. According to Jim Goodman Bowlen wanted to hire Jason Garrett who was going to keep Bates as the OC, but Joe Ellis kept throwing McDaniels' pedigree out there and eventually sold Bowlen on him. Garrett really wanted to work with Cutler, Josh told Bowlen that he did to and looked forward to putting a championship team on the field with Cutler at the helm, according to Ellis' own words after we hired McDaniels. There are a lot of lies and decietfulness going on it seems, you really don't know who to believe and worse is Bowlen's medical condition which is not false but absolutely real! I don't think anyone knows the whole truth at this damn time.

Look at the interview to letter change-up we had a few weeks back?

Lonestar
12-27-2010, 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by Lancane View Post
You do know that of the sixteen drafts that he's been a part of for any organization that they have traded five first round picks for lesser picks and little value in return? AI Alphonso Smith! He was also part of personnel staff who did it four times in Atlanta. And they also were known for drafting busts or questionable character athletes IE Vick and Hall, or Bushing and Duckett!

Not the best qualifications for being someone supposedly knowing the draft process and how to trade, cause it don't mean shit without knowing about character, ability or talent. It's just like taking a fat kid to a health food store, he sees things that look good but doesn't know shit otherwise.
FWIW


we have not been stellar in our drafts the last sixteen years either although the last two seem to be some of the best players taken in awhile. not quite an 06 draft that so many liked. But certainly better than most of the rest.

jhildebrand
12-27-2010, 03:26 PM
Actually, maybe there were interviews and articles where Ellis took credit for the hiring of McDaniels, I don't read every one, so it's possible. What I do know is that at the time he said it was Pat's decision, and that Pat called and hired McDaniels. So, what I have read from day one seems to be in conflict with what you have read.

It's been posted several times. I can't force you to keep up with the team you love.

At the end of the day, it is Bowlen's organization, so by default it is his hire if for no other reason than he was ok with Ellis' choice.

If you can't see the rest of what Horsepower, myself, and others are pointing out than you aren't paying close attention. Their motives and motivations are transparent. That or close to 2/3 of the posters here are delusional in their dislike for both Xanders and Ellis and have imagined all of this.

Lonestar
12-27-2010, 03:26 PM
guess NO one really know for sure .

everything is speculation and will or will not fit according to what you want to believe.

jhildebrand
12-27-2010, 03:28 PM
FWIW


we have not been stellar in our drafts the last sixteen years either although the last two seem to be some of the best players taken in awhile. not quite an 06 draft that so many liked. But certainly better than most of the rest.

Really? Like a second round CB for a 1st round pick who is no longer here? :confused:

Like a hand in the dirt DE from a college 4-3 who is an OLB here who by many media accounts is mailing it in?

Like the #12 overall RB pick who cant go grocery shopping without injuring her hammy's?

Our glass gina WR in the first?

Sorry the last two drafts come no where near the Goodman drafts.

Also, Xanders had plenty of say in the last two drafts ESPECIALLY the first one.

Tned
12-27-2010, 03:29 PM
It was also supposedly Pat Bowlen's decision to fire McDaniels, but it was leaked days later that supposedly Joe Ellis was the deciding factor in terminating Josh's employment with the organization? Joe Ellis interviewed the candidates more then Bowlen did Tned, it's sad but very true. According to Jim Goodman Bowlen wanted to hire Jason Garrett who was going to keep Bates as the OC, but Joe Ellis kept throwing McDaniels' pedigree out there and eventually sold Bowlen on him. Garrett really wanted to work with Cutler, Josh told Bowlen that he did to and looked forward to putting a championship team on the field with Cutler at the helm, according to Ellis' own words after we hired McDaniels. There are a lot of lies and decietfulness going on it seems, you really don't know who to believe and worse is Bowlen's medical condition which is not false but absolutely real! I don't think anyone knows the whole truth at this damn time.

Look at the interview to letter change-up we had a few weeks back?

As I said, as we aren't in Dove Valley, we really don't know what's going on or what happened. I think there is a lot of speculation and connecting of dots, when we don't even have all the dots to connect.

I'll look for the thread you are talking about. I don't think I read it.

Tned
12-27-2010, 03:32 PM
It's been posted several times. I can't force you to keep up with the team you love.

At the end of the day, it is Bowlen's organization, so by default it is his hire if for no other reason than he was ok with Ellis' choice.

If you can't see the rest of what Horsepower, myself, and others are pointing out than you aren't paying close attention. Their motives and motivations are transparent. That or close to 2/3 of the posters here are delusional in their dislike for both Xanders and Ellis and have imagined all of this.

Not too long ago, an EASY 2/3 of the posters were staunchly defending McDaniels as the savior of the Broncos, so excuse me if I don't join the lynch mob and hop on board with the vocal majority like I didn't re McDaniels.

Lancane
12-27-2010, 03:33 PM
FWIW


we have not been stellar in our drafts the last sixteen years either although the last two seem to be some of the best players taken in awhile. not quite an 06 draft that so many liked. But certainly better than most of the rest.

Opionative Lonestar, completely opinionative...Moreno is looking to be a poor choice with the offense we have in place, in Washington or San Diego he'd be a stud, but not here. What about Alphonso Smith? Ayers is a true 4-3 defensive end that is hot and cold at times in a position he's not suited for. McBath nor Bruton have challenged the aged veterans we have at safety, even when Dawkins was playing horridly. Quinn and Olsen are pretty much fodder and another committed suicide? Two others were cut from that draft class. Thomas looks to be a possible injury prone in and out receiver and a waste of a first round pick, while Tebow needs time. Beadles, Walton and Decker seem to be the best of the bunch from both draft classes for us. Cox is in trouble and hopefully Thompson turns out to be better then he's played for most of the season. - If you think those are strong drafts for us Lonestar, then I'd say your standards are low...real low.

;)

Elevation inc
12-27-2010, 03:47 PM
You do know that of the sixteen drafts that he's been a part of for any organization that they have traded five first round picks for lesser picks and little value in return? AI Alphonso Smith! He was also part of personnel staff who did it four times in Atlanta. And they also were known for drafting busts or questionable character athletes IE Vick and Hall, or Bushing and Duckett!

Not the best qualifications for being someone supposedly knowing the draft process and how to trade, cause it don't mean shit without knowing about character, ability or talent. It's just like taking a fat kid to a health food store, he sees things that look good but doesn't know shit otherwise.

:lol:


lol......but he wasnt the one callin the shots how you know he didnt learn from those mess-ups and you have no proof Alphonso was him any more than it was MCD and i have no proof either it was him who got insane value for marshall and cutler via trades...

truth is most denver fans wont be happy unelss we get decosta as GM/gruden as HC/Kubiak as OC and Phillips as DC..and that is about as likely as me winning the lottery and always was....

for all you know Elway/Xanders could be the next Ozzie/decosta...you and I really dont have a clue at this point, personally im willing to give the guy a year to fall on his face.....he hasnt had his shot yet, and he is respected by many many people in the league far more qualified to judge than you or I

BigSarge87
12-27-2010, 03:57 PM
entertaining stuff...

Lancane
12-27-2010, 03:58 PM
lol......but he wasnt the one callin the shots how you know he didnt learn from those mess-ups and you have no proof Alphonso was him any more than it was MCD and i have no proof either it was him who got insane value for marshall and cutler via trades...

truth is most denver fans wont be happy unelss we get decosta as GM/gruden as HC/Kubiak as OC and Phillips as DC..and that is about as likely as me winning the lottery and always was....

for all you know Elway/Xanders could be the next Ozzie/decosta...you and I really dont have a clue at this point, personally im willing to give the guy a year to fall on his face.....he hasnt had his shot yet, and he is respected by many many people in the league far more qualified to judge than you or I

He was the Director of Football Administration and the Player Personnel Analyst for the Falcons? That says a lot Elevation, come on man.


Xanders was a member of the Falcons’ defensive coaching staff on their 1998 team that became the first in franchise history to earn a Super Bowl berth (XXXIII). Selected by the Falcons to attend Stanford University’s NFL Program for Managers in 2005, Xanders has given speeches at several universities on NFL player personnel issues.


Xanders, who serves on both the NFL Combine Selection Committee and the NFL College Advisory Committee, brings a diverse foundation of NFL experience gained during 14 years with the Falcons in a variety of coaching, player personnel and football operations positions. He worked under seven different head coaches during that period, including Dan Reeves, Wade Phillips, Jim Mora and Mike Smith. He also trained under several different player personnel executives such as Ron Hill, Bobby Beathard, Rich McKay, Tim Ruskell, Billy Devaney and Thomas Dimitroff.

Sounds like he had more to say then some believe...

I'll give him a year before I string him up outside Mile High and stone his ass! But that's about as much time as he'll get from me, if we have one more draft that looks questionable then that's it, especially after all we have had to endure with ineptitude at such positions.

jhildebrand
12-27-2010, 03:58 PM
lol......but he wasnt the one callin the shots how you know he didnt learn from those mess-ups and you have no proof Alphonso was him any more than it was MCD


McDaniels said there have been few disagreements between him and Xanders as they've watched film on the draft prospects.

"He headed up this entire process. He's up there right now," McDaniels said of Xanders. "He's really led to some prospects, organized the draft board, all the scouting trips. He sent the coaches on a few visits."

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_12223334#ixzz19LcmsLn2

Some might say I am connecting dots here. However, it was clear he organized the draft board for the first draft the Broncos had with McD and Xanders running things. Something that was never retracted nor disputed.

It wouldn't be a big deal if it wasn't later revealed that the draft board that year only had 100 players on it. That one fact alone should disqualify Xanders!

BroncoStud
12-27-2010, 04:01 PM
Vick is FAR from a bust. Even in his Atlanta days he was a Pro Bowler, and that was with him dogfighting instead of studying film.

Now everyone can see that his potential is limitless with his life in order.

Tned
12-27-2010, 04:02 PM
Some might say I am connecting dots here. However, it was clear he organized the draft board for the first draft the Broncos had with McD and Xanders running things. Something that was never retracted nor disputed.

It wouldn't be a big deal if it wasn't later revealed that the draft board that year only had 100 players on it. That one fact alone should disqualify Xanders!

Let me get this straight, NOW you are claiming that everything McDaniels said was 100% true and accurate?

Lancane
12-27-2010, 04:03 PM
Vick is FAR from a bust. Even in his Atlanta days he was a Pro Bowler, and that was with him dogfighting instead of studying film.

Now everyone can see that his potential is limitless with his life in order.

No, I never said Vick was a bust...just a questionable character. ;)

G_Money
12-27-2010, 04:15 PM
Xanders as GM pisses me off.

What it actually means?

Elway is gonna have far more of a hand in personnel than I expected. And that means that no self-respecting actual GM would come here.

Xanders is used to taking orders. His voice will now be more prevalent, but it sounds like it's gonna be Elway running the team and sending people to sign on the dotted line in X's office once he writes up the contract.

That said...

If Elway is the GM, then I'll be shocked if Kubes isn't the head coach. My only curiosity then is whether Wade Phillips would come back to coach the defense, or if we'd have to go outside for that.

Elway and Kubiak talking about player potential with Xanders sitting in and running cap figures while pitching his two cents could work okay.

Not being able to add a DC was always the problem Kubes ran into. It's why I'm leery of hiring him as the head man (he can be my OC any day). But if John can add a DC that Kubiak will accept (like a Phillips or a Marvin Lewis) I could see that happening very easily and us announcing Kubiak as our new head man about 10 seconds after his tenure with the Texans comes to an end. Anybody know if Wade still holds a grudge from being fired in the 90s?

I'd still rather have any number of personnel men advising Elway instead of cap-wizard Xanders, though. It's not his strength.

Ugh.

~G

dogfish
12-27-2010, 04:16 PM
lol......but he wasnt the one callin the shots how you know he didnt learn from those mess-ups and you have no proof Alphonso was him any more than it was MCD and i have no proof either it was him who got insane value for marshall and cutler via trades...

truth is most denver fans wont be happy unelss we get decosta as GM/gruden as HC/Kubiak as OC and Phillips as DC..and that is about as likely as me winning the lottery and always was....

for all you know Elway/Xanders could be the next Ozzie/decosta...you and I really dont have a clue at this point, personally im willing to give the guy a year to fall on his face.....he hasnt had his shot yet, and he is respected by many many people in the league far more qualified to judge than you or I

the second-in-command of the exxon valdez probably never got a chance to captain his own ship either. . .

they could easily find someone with better qualifications than "well you can't prove that he completely screwed things up" if they were more focused on winning football games and less focused on saving a few extra bucks and/or keeping wormtongue in power. . .

dogfish
12-27-2010, 04:18 PM
If Elway is the GM, then I'll be shocked if Kubes isn't the head coach. My only curiosity then is whether Wade Phillips would come back to coach the defense, or if we'd have to go outside for that.



bob slowick is available. . . . :D

G_Money
12-27-2010, 04:20 PM
Damn you, dogfish. http://www.pixeljoint.com/pixels/images/smile/vomit.gif

~G

Nomad
12-27-2010, 04:21 PM
Xanders as GM pisses me off.

What it actually means?

Elway is gonna have far more of a hand in personnel than I expected. And that means that no self-respecting actual GM would come here.

Xanders is used to taking orders. His voice will now be more prevalent, but it sounds like it's gonna be Elway running the team and sending people to sign on the dotted line in X's office once he writes up the contract.

That said...

If Elway is the GM, then I'll be shocked if Kubes isn't the head coach. My only curiosity then is whether Wade Phillips would come back to coach the defense, or if we'd have to go outside for that.

Elway and Kubiak talking about player potential with Xanders sitting in and running cap figures while pitching his two cents could work okay.

Not being able to add a DC was always the problem Kubes ran into. It's why I'm leery of hiring him as the head man (he can be my OC any day). But if John can add a DC that Kubiak will accept (like a Phillips or a Marvin Lewis) I could see that happening very easily and us announcing Kubiak as our new head man about 10 seconds after his tenure with the Texans comes to an end. Anybody know if Wade still holds a grudge from being fired in the 90s?

I'd still rather have any number of personnel men advising Elway instead of cap-wizard Xanders, though. It's not his strength.

Ugh.

~G

I agree! Only way this would change is if Elway knew he could get Harbaugh and Luck!! But I see Kubiak as a BRONCO and I'm sure Wade could swallow his pride for the right price!!

BigDaddyBronco
12-27-2010, 04:21 PM
bob slowick is available. . . . :D

I want to punch you. :mad:

dogfish
12-27-2010, 04:31 PM
I want to punch you. :mad:

seems like a solid plan. . .


i want to punch pat bowlen. . .

jhildebrand
12-27-2010, 04:34 PM
Let me get this straight, NOW you are claiming that everything McDaniels said was 100% true and accurate?

Where did I say everything. I think my post is clear, Tned. But I will spell it out for you.

That article has been out there for a LONG time.

That first draft was far from unquestioned let alone controversial to some.

Xanders had plenty of opportunity after that article was written either before the draft or after when all the heat was coming down to clarify the point that I quoted.

He never once clarified the article or denied any of it.

So yes, I believe what was written there.

Do I believe everything McDaniels said? Nope! Do I believe some things? Sure. I am not a person, and I think my post history shows it, that believes one person is 100% anything i.e. right or wrong, good or bad, etc...


That draft was a JOKE imho and Xanders was more than happy to sit back and allow McDaniels to take the heat. Fair enough if the draft was entirely McDaniels' doing. However, if Xanders truly did organize the entire draft board of 100 people then again we have a situation that doesn't reflect well on Xanders. Again he seems to be willing to let the others take the entire heat for something he had his hands in. No matter how you look at it, Xanders was either a willing accomplice and only now is distancing himself or he is simply willing to go along with whatever anybody tells him to do.

Seems to me you are riding the fence when it is convenient because as you stated you haven't "followed this as closely as some." But the next you are trying to make points and observations despite not having followed up. Seems like playing games for the sake of playing games.

G_Money
12-27-2010, 04:36 PM
I just don't understand this aversion to anything resembling a GM figure who earned his way up to the position and letting him determine the composition of the coaching staff and the team.

We apparently have that aversion, though.

Competence phobia:

http://www.linkedin.com/answers/management/business-analytics/MGM_ANA/294555-18284492


A management consultancy selling CEO/VP level business coaching services hired some heavy hitters with snappy "get things done" track records to spearhead the services.

They were getting nowhere, senior execs appeared strangely resistant to the pitch.

The consultancy changed tack. They hired juniors fresh out of third tier colleges with no or little experience. This approach worked and CEO’s were much more prepared to accept coaching from kids who knew nothing than from credentialed and experienced players.

How could this be so?

The head honcho at the consultancy analysed it thus;

We started off thinking we were selling coaching and problem solving services but this isn’t what was wanted. What CEO’s are prepared to pay for is services that make them feel good about themselves. Coaching from kids who know nothing makes the “coachees” feel superior and more knowledgeable than they actually are, so they feel good about themselves and pay our invoices. If we use high powered consultants who really can coach and do things then the customer feels insecure and inadequate so they don’t want the service. We just follow the emotions and it leads to the money and we give them what they want. Not what they need but what they want.

So I guess I'm left to hope that John is really ready to run an organization after his AFL experience and will bring in some competent guys to help HIM, since Bowlen and Ellis apparently only want one familiar face to deal with.

~G

Tned
12-27-2010, 04:49 PM
Where did I say everything. I think my post is clear, Tned. But I will spell it out for you.

It wasn't his place to say, "McDaniels made the calls in the draft". Come on, let's get real for a brief moment. This belief that fans are owed detailed explanations of what's going on is crazy. Maybe it's from all the crappy reality TV shows inundating the airwaves for years now.



That article has been out there for a LONG time.

That first draft was far from unquestioned let alone controversial to some.

Xanders had plenty of opportunity after that article was written either before the draft or after when all the heat was coming down to clarify the point that I quoted.

He never once clarified the article or denied any of it.

So yes, I believe what was written there.

Do you believe everything McDaniels said about the Cutler incident a month or two earlier? Everything he said since? Seems to me you are picking and choosing which quotes of McDaniels to believe.

I'll play, but then let's agree that EVERYTHING McDaniels told the press was 100% accurate. Agreed?


Do I believe everything McDaniels said? Nope! Do I believe some things? Sure. I am not a person, and I think my post history shows it, that believes one person is 100% anything i.e. right or wrong, good or bad, etc...

That's convenient. Believe only those things McDaniels says that supports your positions. Nope, can't play that game. Either he's an honest abe, or a lying *****. Can't flip/flop when it's convenient.


That draft was a JOKE imho and Xanders was more than happy to sit back and allow McDaniels to take the heat. Fair enough if the draft was entirely McDaniels' doing. However, if Xanders truly did organize the entire draft board of 100 people then again we have a situation that doesn't reflect well on Xanders. Again he seems to be willing to let the others take the entire heat for something he had his hands in. No matter how you look at it, Xanders was either a willing accomplice and only now is distancing himself or he is simply willing to go along with whatever anybody tells him to do.

Funny how you pick one quote where he says Xanders worked on the draft, but ignore all the others where McDaniels talked about having a small draft board because it's the New England way. How he believed in quality over quantity, or some drivel like that.

Care to dig up those quotes to balance out the isolated one you posted regarding the draft?

How about Bowlen saying McDaniels made rookie mistakes regarding the draft?


Seems to me you are riding the fence when it is convenient because as you stated you haven't "followed this as closely as some." But the next you are trying to make points and observations despite not having followed up. Seems like playing games for the sake of playing games.

No, not riding the fence, attempting to give a bit and back out of the bickering over past events that we don't have all the facts about. It was an attempt at a form of agree to disagree, but of course you simply use it as an opportunity to attack.

Elevation inc
12-27-2010, 05:54 PM
Some might say I am connecting dots here. However, it was clear he organized the draft board for the first draft the Broncos had with McD and Xanders running things. Something that was never retracted nor disputed.

It wouldn't be a big deal if it wasn't later revealed that the draft board that year only had 100 players on it. That one fact alone should disqualify Xanders!

and we should believe what MCD says why????

basically you all can kiss my but:lol:, you wont change my opinion of thinking that Xanders deserves a real shot for a franchise even if it is ours..you dont get his amount of respect in upper tier NFL circles without doing something right and having some knowledge, sorry I just believe we could do alot worse than Xanders..and jut becasue xanders created the board and scouted doesnt mean he was the one who made the final draft pick decision....for all you know Xanders wanted different guys than MCD but was shut down, so MCD could get his guy, since its now a fact he had final say

jhildebrand
12-27-2010, 06:12 PM
and we should believe what MCD says why????

basically you all can kiss my but:lol:, you wont change my opinion of thinking that Xanders deserves a real shot for a franchise even if it is ours..you dont get his amount of respect in upper tier NFL circles without doing something right and having some knowledge, sorry I just believe we could do alot worse than Xanders..and jut becasue xanders created the board and scouted doesnt mean he was the one who made the final draft pick decision....for all you know Xanders wanted different guys than MCD but was shut down, so MCD could get his guy, since its now a fact he had final say

It's not about believing McDaniels as much as it is about believing Xanders. There has been a ton of press that involves Xanders and his role and NOT ONCE did the guy refute any of it DESPITE the articles all but saying he was on board with everything. ONLY AFTER MCD IS FIRED DID HE TRY TO DISTANCE HIMSELF FROM THAT! That is what I don't believe. If he didn't believe it then, why allow it to be written? Why not refute it?

Also, I am not trying to change your mind! In all fairness you were a staunch supporter of McDaniels and all of his moves with a similar defense/argument when I was out their advocating against the guy. You changed your mind at some point. IIRC someone not too long ago was calling you a McD shill or something along those lines. ;)

Again, I am not trying to change your mind. I am simply pointing out that no matter what side of the Xanders fence you are on, it doesn't look good. Either he is a guy who admits McDaniels found a way to supercede him and overrun him-a first year guy mind you or he is a guy who went along with everything and only NOW is trying to distance himself despite several articles to the contrary.

There isn't one homerun in Xanders background that I can see. I would rather start fresh across the board.

Tned
12-27-2010, 06:26 PM
It's not about believing McDaniels as much as it is about believing Xanders. There has been a ton of press that involves Xanders and his role and NOT ONCE did the guy refute any of it DESPITE the articles all but saying he was on board with everything. ONLY AFTER MCD IS FIRED DID HE TRY TO DISTANCE HIMSELF FROM THAT! That is what I don't believe. If he didn't believe it then, why allow it to be written? Why not refute it?

Come on, do you really want an asnwer to this? :confused:


Again, I am not trying to change your mind. I am simply pointing out that no matter what side of the Xanders fence you are on, it doesn't look good. Either he is a guy who admits McDaniels found a way to supercede him and overrun him-a first year guy mind you or he is a guy who went along with everything and only NOW is trying to distance himself despite several articles to the contrary.

Yea, or we can go with door number three, which is Bowlen gave McDaniels full control, just like he did with Shanahan when Sundquist was here.

jhildebrand
12-27-2010, 06:37 PM
Come on, do you really want an asnwer to this? :confused:


Go for it :D



Yea, or we can go with door number three, which is Bowlen gave McDaniels full control, just like he did with Shanahan when Sundquist was here.

I don't think Bowlen granted it to McD as much as McD worked it and Bowlen did what he does best-sit back and let the people he hired do their job.

You seem to think Xanders is an innocent bystander in all of this. What has he done to warrant being a GM in your eyes? Name me one thing!

Give him a path to GM...fine. But I don't see a guy fit to be a GM. He just doesn't seem strong enough.

Tned
12-27-2010, 06:43 PM
Go for it :D



I don't think Bowlen granted it to McD as much as McD worked it and Bowlen did what he does best-sit back and let the people he hired do their job.

You seem to think Xanders is an innocent bystander in all of this. What has he done to warrant being a GM in your eyes? Name me one thing!

Give him a path to GM...fine. But I don't see a guy fit to be a GM. He just doesn't seem strong enough.

I have never said Xanders is a good GM candidate, and I am fine discussing his resume as such. I just don't get into the BS rhetoric of "if he had balls, he would have gone to the press and said, McDaniels is making all the player moves, and I will no longer stand for it. Either I have control, or I am resigning from the Broncos."

Give me a break.

Dzone
12-27-2010, 06:51 PM
Was Xanders responsible for Mcdaniels being a total a'hole?

Tned
12-27-2010, 06:55 PM
Was Xanders responsible for Mcdaniels being a total a'hole?

No, but if he had balls, he would have gone to the press and told them he was a total a'hole.

spikerman
12-27-2010, 07:28 PM
If this is true, it just shows that despite all of the lip service since McDaniels was fired, Bowlen and Ellis are still only ready to make cosmetic changes in order to keep the money flowing in and are not prepared to make the real, sweeping changes needed to actually be a successful franchise again.

We're thisclose to being the Detroit Lions.

Lancane
12-27-2010, 09:31 PM
We're thisclose to being the Detroit Lions.

You mean we're not the Detroit Lions? Shit...now I have to take all my gear back, and I was excited with having Suh on our defense as well....G'damnit!

:lol:

Lonestar
12-27-2010, 09:49 PM
Really? Like a second round CB for a 1st round pick who is no longer here? :confused:

Like a hand in the dirt DE from a college 4-3 who is an OLB here who by many media accounts is mailing it in?

Like the #12 overall RB pick who cant go grocery shopping without injuring her hammy's?

Our glass gina WR in the first?

Sorry the last two drafts come no where near the Goodman drafts.

Also, Xanders had plenty of say in the last two drafts ESPECIALLY the first one.

Angry lately. I think that unless there is a complete change in schemes the last TWO draft classes have a much bigger chance of being around for being resigned to a second conscutive bronco contract, than all of mikeys day one choices combined.

But that wiil take time to prove out.

Time will tell. I've got time and patcience how about you.
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spikerman
12-27-2010, 10:11 PM
Lonestar, somehow you and I viewed the same drafts and walked away with completely opposite opinions. I think these last two drafts have been atrocious. I guess that's why they make 500 different kinds of beer - everybody likes something different.

Tned
12-27-2010, 10:17 PM
Lonestar, somehow you and I viewed the same drafts and walked away with completely opposite opinions. I think these last two drafts have been atrocious. I guess that's why they make 500 different kinds of beer - everybody likes something different.

We all know you can't judge a draft the year it happens, or even one year later. The 2010 draft 'could' be a very good draft, if Tebow, Thomas, Walton and Beadles start on offense for the next 4+ years. Throw in Cox and a couple of the other late picks and it could be a VERY good draft. Last years is a complete toss up at this point. How productive Moreno and Ayers are in the next couple years will go a long way in defining that draft.

GEM
12-27-2010, 10:20 PM
Angry lately. I think that unless there is a complete change in schemes the last TWO draft classes have a much bigger chance of being around for being resigned to a second conscutive bronco contract, than all of mikeys day one choices combined.

But that wiil take time to prove out.

Time will tell. I've got time and patcience how about you.
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I'd say there is a pretty good chance of scheme changes to come, being McD is gone.

spikerman
12-27-2010, 10:22 PM
We all know you can't judge a draft the year it happens, or even one year later. The 2010 draft 'could' be a very good draft, if Tebow, Thomas, Walton and Beadles start on offense for the next 4+ years. Throw in Cox and a couple of the other late picks and it could be a VERY good draft. Last years is a complete toss up at this point. How productive Moreno and Ayers are in the next couple years will go a long way in defining that draft.

I don't think you necessarily have to wait several years to judge a draft. Often, at least one player will make an impact almost immediately on the team. In McD's two drafts, I have yet to see that player. I think D. Thomas may have that ability, but not if he can't stay healthy.

jhildebrand
12-27-2010, 11:41 PM
I have never said Xanders is a good GM candidate, and I am fine discussing his resume as such. I just don't get into the BS rhetoric of "if he had balls, he would have gone to the press and said, McDaniels is making all the player moves, and I will no longer stand for it. Either I have control, or I am resigning from the Broncos."

Give me a break.

Cute AND Dramatic :lol: Nobody is suggesting as much.

I don't know about you but I want a GM who is strong willed with vision. I don't want a guy who has been content for two years now having his name associated with several high profile moves who is willing to go along with all of it as long as things are good (6-0) or until the other half is fired.

Shoot at least Sundquist had enough character, strength, and integrity to not only challenge Shanahan but to clarify with the press his position or stance.

So call it rhetoric but the reality is there is a lot of negativity when it comes to Xanders regardless of what side of the fence you are on. Even now most are speculating that he will either be a yes man to Elway or there to do the grunt work.


I have never said Xanders is a good GM candidate, and I am fine discussing his resume as such.

Well then....I am waiting. I asked you a direct question. What is there in Xanders resume that points to him warranting a true GM position?

jhildebrand
12-27-2010, 11:42 PM
Angry lately. I think that unless there is a complete change in schemes the last TWO draft classes have a much bigger chance of being around for being resigned to a second conscutive bronco contract, than all of mikeys day one choices combined.

But that wiil take time to prove out.

Time will tell. I've got time and patcience how about you.
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I'm not angry. Apparently you are :D How else could you explain a person's inability to let "mikey" go years after he is gone despite him not having anything to do with this conversation :confused:

Did he kick your dog?

HORSEPOWER 56
12-27-2010, 11:56 PM
If this is true, it just shows that despite all of the lip service since McDaniels was fired, Bowlen and Ellis are still only ready to make cosmetic changes in order to keep the money flowing in and are not prepared to make the real, sweeping changes needed to actually be a successful franchise again.

We're thisclose to being the Detroit Lions.

And this was my whole point way back on page 1... Thanks for saying in better in fewer words, spike. :congrats:

Tned
12-28-2010, 01:54 AM
Cute AND Dramatic :lol: Nobody is suggesting as much.

Yea, some of you guys have been saying that. That's YOUR criticism of him. Go back and read your own post, the idea is ludicrous.


I don't know about you but I want a GM who is strong willed with vision. I don't want a guy who has been content for two years now having his name associated with several high profile moves who is willing to go along with all of it as long as things are good (6-0) or until the other half is fired.


Here you go again, this is nonsensical. Yes, I want a strong GM, but once again you are criticizing Xanders for doing his JOB.


Shoot at least Sundquist had enough character, strength, and integrity to not only challenge Shanahan but to clarify with the press his position or stance.

So call it rhetoric but the reality is there is a lot of negativity when it comes to Xanders regardless of what side of the fence you are on. Even now most are speculating that he will either be a yes man to Elway or there to do the grunt work.


Yea, and we know how good the majority fans were with their speculation over the last two years. We all want to post our opinions, that's why we are here, but let's not try and use FANatical, emotional rants as the basis for your own opinions. :lol:


Well then....I am waiting. I asked you a direct question. What is there in Xanders resume that points to him warranting a true GM position?x


I've said multiple times, that I see none. My issue is not saying Xanders is a good GM candidate, it's that those of you calling him out for doing his job are wrong -- plain and simple.

Lonestar
12-28-2010, 02:47 AM
Opionative Lonestar, completely opinionative...Moreno is looking to be a poor choice with the offense we have in place, in Washington or San Diego he'd be a stud, but not here. What about Alphonso Smith? Ayers is a true 4-3 defensive end that is hot and cold at times in a position he's not suited for. McBath nor Bruton have challenged the aged veterans we have at safety, even when Dawkins was playing horridly. Quinn and Olsen are pretty much fodder and another committed suicide? Two others were cut from that draft class. Thomas looks to be a possible injury prone in and out receiver and a waste of a first round pick, while Tebow needs time. Beadles, Walton and Decker seem to be the best of the bunch from both draft classes for us. Cox is in trouble and hopefully Thompson turns out to be better then he's played for most of the season. - If you think those are strong drafts for us Lonestar, then I'd say your standards are low...real low.

;)

Just as yours are YOUR opinion.

I said that I believed that there will be more players from Joshes drafts to resign a second contract with DEN than all of mikeys day one drafts combined.

I did not say they were stellar all pros just that UNLESS there is a complete change in schemes we will retain more from two drafts than mikeys day ones have.

I guess that also means that mikeys were poor also. But for a lot longer in time.
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Lancane
12-28-2010, 03:04 AM
Just as yours are YOUR opinion.

I said that I believed that there will be more players from Joshes drafts to resign a second contract with DEN than all of mikeys day one drafts combined.

I did not say they were stellar all pros just that UNLESS there is a complete change in schemes we will retain more from two drafts than mikeys day ones have.

I guess that also means that mikeys were poor also. But for a lot longer in time.
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Actually mine is more based off a collective opinion shared by many, it's not singular or based on views which a small select few support.

And just so you know Lonestar, I for a long-time had issues with Shanahan's drafting and McDaniels proved to be no better, almost in the same league if not worse. FYI though, Shanahan's first few drafts were rather solid when you think about the lack of picks we had or the number of late rounders as well, he still added the likes of Byron Chamberlain, Terrell Davis, John Mobley, Tory James, Trevor Pryce and Dan Neil, that's with more day two picks then first rounders.

tomjonesrocks
12-28-2010, 03:27 AM
Keeping Xanders as GM makes me think the team still is prone to stupid decisions and hasn't learned necessary lessons. It's not good news IMO.

I really hope some GM comes along that "couldn't be passed up" and that this essentially gets rescinded. Wouldn't have necessarily felt Xanders needed to be shown the door as he was in Denver during some productive seasons but leaving him as the top dog? Don't get it.

zbeg
12-28-2010, 04:58 AM
Actually mine is more based off a collective opinion shared by many, it's not singular or based on views which a small select few support.

And just so you know Lonestar, I for a long-time had issues with Shanahan's drafting and McDaniels proved to be no better, almost in the same league if not worse. FYI though, Shanahan's first few drafts were rather solid when you think about the lack of picks we had or the number of late rounders as well, he still added the likes of Byron Chamberlain, Terrell Davis, John Mobley, Tory James, Trevor Pryce and Dan Neil, that's with more day two picks then first rounders.

Shanahan's drafting got markedly worse after Jack Elway died. He was a huge part of the scouting department, and an underrated reason behind the personnel success that Shanahan had in the early part of his coaching tenure.

Lonestar
12-28-2010, 08:45 AM
Go for it :D
I don't think Bowlen granted it to McD as much as McD worked it and Bowlen did what he does best-sit back and let the people he hired do their job.

You seem to think Xanders is an innocent bystander in all of this. What has he done to warrant being a GM in your eyes? Name me one thing!

Give him a path to GM...fine. But I don't see a guy fit to be a GM. He just doesn't seem strong enough.

It is not what we think. But how Pat, John and Joe does.

They just may have a lot closer insight to the guy, his history and frankly may KNOW what happened when.
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atwater27
12-28-2010, 09:10 AM
It is not what we think. But how Pat, John and Joe does.


Thanks for that nugget of wisdom.:rolleyes:

HORSEPOWER 56
12-28-2010, 09:51 AM
It is not what we think. But how Pat, John and Joe does.

They just may have a lot closer insight to the guy, his history and frankly may KNOW what happened when.
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Ya know, maybe I'd buy that mindset if it weren't for three glaring things that make me believe we, as fans, have a hell of a lot more influence than we're given credit for.

1) Bringing back Orange Jerseys - it was a small side comment made in a presser by McDaniels about liking them that really had no legs and a fan (Tned) took action, got support, started a petition, and used his resources and voila... Orange Jerseys in 2012.

2) Firing Josh McDaniels - You can say it wasn't the fan influence, but even after spygate, the ownership was protective and forgiving of Josh. It wasn't until the terrible fan support and poor turnout by the fans at the Rams game along with lighting up every major Denver area media outlet that would listen about firing McDaniels that Bowlen/Ellis decided to pull the trigger. If you don't think the fan support had a HUGE impact on that decision, you're crazy.

3) Bringing back John Elway - No, I don't think the fans get credit for the idea, but they are definitely the reason that Bowlen decided to do this. By bringing back the most revered player in franchise history, he shows he's the "good guy" and gets the fanbase back on his side. This was the "ace up his sleeve" to try to get the fanbase back on his side... as was, IMO, playing Tim Tebow for the last 3 games of the season. Look at us now, re-energized and hopeful for next season instead of downtrodden and hopeless.

I'm not saying that we as fans somehow control all things, but we definitely have influence. The last 3 months prove that beyond the shadow of a doubt. Money talks, and we the fans control that money flow.

Lonestar
12-28-2010, 10:47 AM
Actually mine is more based off a collective opinion shared by many, it's not singular or based on views which a small select few support.

And just so you know Lonestar, I for a long-time had issues with Shanahan's drafting and McDaniels proved to be no better, almost in the same league if not worse. FYI though, Shanahan's first few drafts were rather solid when you think about the lack of picks we had or the number of late rounders as well, he still added the likes of Byron Chamberlain, Terrell Davis, John Mobley, Tory James, Trevor Pryce and Dan Neil, that's with more day two picks then first rounders.

Shared by many AYE.

I will wait to see how many turn out to be long time Broncos, verses throwing them under the bus because of collective thought.

We all know what mikes record was those day one players that you build a solid foundation with flat were not there. Got to go.
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Elevation inc
12-28-2010, 11:09 AM
It's not about believing McDaniels as much as it is about believing Xanders. There has been a ton of press that involves Xanders and his role and NOT ONCE did the guy refute any of it DESPITE the articles all but saying he was on board with everything. ONLY AFTER MCD IS FIRED DID HE TRY TO DISTANCE HIMSELF FROM THAT! That is what I don't believe. If he didn't believe it then, why allow it to be written? Why not refute it?

Also, I am not trying to change your mind! In all fairness you were a staunch supporter of McDaniels and all of his moves with a similar defense/argument when I was out their advocating against the guy. You changed your mind at some point. IIRC someone not too long ago was calling you a McD shill or something along those lines. ;)

Again, I am not trying to change your mind. I am simply pointing out that no matter what side of the Xanders fence you are on, it doesn't look good. Either he is a guy who admits McDaniels found a way to supercede him and overrun him-a first year guy mind you or he is a guy who went along with everything and only NOW is trying to distance himself despite several articles to the contrary.

There isn't one homerun in Xanders background that I can see. I would rather start fresh across the board.

so your saying while MCd was here he should have called him out, even though its been proven MCD had veto power over everything..i.e.e jim goodman.....that makes no sense, of course he is doing it now that mcd is gone, mcd cant fire him....:lol:

as for starting fresh i understand that and dont entirely disagree with it. but if Xanders is give na shot I'm gonna back him up as defacto GM with the personnel calls untill he proves he fails at it, right now we really dont ahve any good info other than speculation as to whetehr he can or cant do the job....it would be great t oge t some sexy pick in, but reality is probally alot simpler....many will hate it, but i dont belive it fair to knock xanders, without him getting a shot to prove it was MCD and not him who sucked....he was here before MCD, and was basically a puppet to MCd...lets see what he can do when he isnt a puppet and is given control by bowlen, ellis, and Elway...

jhildebrand
12-28-2010, 11:58 AM
so your saying while MCd was here he should have called him out, even though its been proven MCD had veto power over everything..i.e.e jim goodman.....that makes no sense, of course he is doing it now that mcd is gone, mcd cant fire him....:lol:

as for starting fresh i understand that and dont entirely disagree with it. but if Xanders is give na shot I'm gonna back him up as defacto GM with the personnel calls untill he proves he fails at it, right now we really dont ahve any good info other than speculation as to whetehr he can or cant do the job....it would be great t oge t some sexy pick in, but reality is probally alot simpler....many will hate it, but i dont belive it fair to knock xanders, without him getting a shot to prove it was MCD and not him who sucked....he was here before MCD, and was basically a puppet to MCd...lets see what he can do when he isnt a puppet and is given control by bowlen, ellis, and Elway...

He was here before McD and still ended up being his puppet. That says something! He should have been comfortable with his job security and had a good enough relationship with Bowlen/Ellis by then.

Two: If Ted Sundquist can speak out against a Mike Shanahan then I guess he is much stronger than Ellis who couldn't speak up against McDaniels. Maybe the Sundquist rumor isn't so bad afterall.

I have seen enough from Xanders resume and past stops for me to personally not like the guy as GM.

G_Money
12-28-2010, 12:58 PM
Never mention Sundquist as a possibility for this job. :mad: Just his retro-hack philosophizing on how he didn't screw up with Clarett and others is self-serving drivel. Obnoxious in the extreme. He was here for all our useless drafts. The second he got marginalized and then fired we got some decent draftpicks.

Xanders can be the defacto GM. I don't care about that as much. But he can't be the guy with the most personnel input. He needs smarter guys with more talent in that area, or he needs to listen to the smart guys we have better than Josh did.

If we want to filter it through Brian and he's a good filter, fine. But he can't be the one providing the input, or we're kneecapping ourselves.

I say that because he's never been the scouting guy for a top-flight organization. He's been the salary cap guy. Maybe he has a discerning eye to nab the correct talent when provided with the right information. None of us would know that, because it's never been his call.

But we do know he's never been the information guy, and needs not to be. Our scouting dept needs to be beefed up and empowered. Can Brian say, "This guy is the right guy for our system and coaching given all the great scouting we've done"? Maybe. Can he provide that scouting? No. And he needs not to.

A man has got to know his limitations. Too many men who would be kings around here haven't.

~G

TXBRONC
12-28-2010, 01:05 PM
He was here before McD and still ended up being his puppet. That says something! He should have been comfortable with his job security and had a good enough relationship with Bowlen/Ellis by then.

Two: If Ted Sundquist can speak out against a Mike Shanahan then I guess he is much stronger than Ellis who couldn't speak up against McDaniels. Maybe the Sundquist rumor isn't so bad afterall.

I have seen enough from Xanders resume and past stops for me to personally not like the guy as GM.

I don't know J. We don't if Xanders spoke out against McDaniels or not. Hell Xanders may have played big role reporting McDaniels role in Spygate II and he may have had a role in outing McDaniels on his staff meeting about the differences between Spygate and Spygate II.

Elevation inc
12-28-2010, 02:26 PM
He was here before McD and still ended up being his puppet. That says something! He should have been comfortable with his job security and had a good enough relationship with Bowlen/Ellis by then.

Two: If Ted Sundquist can speak out against a Mike Shanahan then I guess he is much stronger than Ellis who couldn't speak up against McDaniels. Maybe the Sundquist rumor isn't so bad afterall.

I have seen enough from Xanders resume and past stops for me to personally not like the guy as GM.

well sundquist also waited till he was fired to really speak out:lol:, he had nothing to lose speaking out, and even though he didnt want to bench jake at the time before his firing, look who overpowered him anyway...the HC...probally something similar with MCD and xanders....why? becasue the org allowed the HC to be the defacto man in charge period!!!!

Tned
12-28-2010, 02:32 PM
For those that didn't listen to the Xanders interview on 87.7, here it is. I'm listening to it for the first time now.

http://www.877theticket.com/page.php?inf_user_session=ef923c5561110cdd495f5574 33f4515f#

Early in the interview he talks about Tebow leading up to the draft, and then the plan to move back to pick DT and TT in the first round.

Tned
12-28-2010, 02:46 PM
I say that because he's never been the scouting guy for a top-flight organization. He's been the salary cap guy. Maybe he has a discerning eye to nab the correct talent when provided with the right information. None of us would know that, because it's never been his call.

But we do know he's never been the information guy, and needs not to be. Our scouting dept needs to be beefed up and empowered. Can Brian say, "This guy is the right guy for our system and coaching given all the great scouting we've done"? Maybe. Can he provide that scouting? No. And he needs not to.

A man has got to know his limitations. Too many men who would be kings around here haven't.

~G

I know you said you were going to listen to the interview, if you haven't, you should. I just posted the link. About five minutes in they ask him about his background the perception that he's a contract guiy, and he says he's never been a "contract" guy. It's always been a very small part of his job.

He might be lieing, but he says this is his 17th season in NFL, started from ground up in ATL, worked his way on to Dan Reeve's coaching staff, which is what he says was how he earned his PHD in football. Learned about O, D and ST as a member of the coaching staff.

When the team was sold, they moved him to player personnel. Job under multiple GM's was to do college scouting, combination of film and going on the road scouting players. Also did free agent evaluation prior to free agent period. Only did contract research on the side. 90% of his job was watching film and evaluating players. Same here in Denver.

So, is he qualified? Is he lying about what his expereience? I don't know, but I think the whole 'cap guy' thing has grown as message board myths often do.

Lonestar
12-28-2010, 02:49 PM
Ya know, maybe I'd buy that mindset if it weren't for three glaring things that make me believe we, as fans, have a hell of a lot more influence than we're given credit for.

1) Bringing back Orange Jerseys - it was a small side comment made in a presser by McDaniels about liking them that really had no legs and a fan (Tned) took action, got support, started a petition, and used his resources and voila... Orange Jerseys in 2012.

2) Firing Josh McDaniels - You can say it wasn't the fan influence, but even after spygate, the ownership was protective and forgiving of Josh. It wasn't until the terrible fan support and poor turnout by the fans at the Rams game along with lighting up every major Denver area media outlet that would listen about firing McDaniels that Bowlen/Ellis decided to pull the trigger. If you don't think the fan support had a HUGE impact on that decision, you're crazy.

3) Bringing back John Elway - No, I don't think the fans get credit for the idea, but they are definitely the reason that Bowlen decided to do this. By bringing back the most revered player in franchise history, he shows he's the "good guy" and gets the fanbase back on his side. This was the "ace up his sleeve" to try to get the fanbase back on his side... as was, IMO, playing Tim Tebow for the last 3 games of the season. Look at us now, re-energized and hopeful for next season instead of downtrodden and hopeless.

I'm not saying that we as fans somehow control all things, but we definitely have influence. The last 3 months prove that beyond the shadow of a doubt. Money talks, and we the fans control that money flow.

Actually the real money is made from the network contracts. The revenue from tickets sales is not a huge factor.

As for the orange jerseys well we change costums every Ten years or so anyway so IMHO not a biggee.

Yes the media fanned the flames about Josh as from day one most if not all the locals did not like him just bided there time to get rid of him. He did himself no favors localy by not kissing their butts and talking to the national media.

John was not liked by mikey so was not welcome at dove valley. That was nothing but a natural progression after mike was fired funny that it was Josh that invited him back to the fold nit Pat or joe.

Like I said before puff up the fans for making the difference in the change. But make no mistake it was the media that drove that wagon. Since xman did mothing to them it is highly unlikely they will go after his scalp. You heard it here first.
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BeefStew25
12-28-2010, 02:50 PM
^^^omg

Lonestar
12-28-2010, 03:01 PM
A man has got to know his limitations. Too many men who would be kings around here haven't.

~G

Good post overall but IMHO this was the most pertinent part as it applies to fans even MORESO.

As we habe no REAL clue as to the real inter workings within Dove Valley we are hard pressed to know for sure who did what.

I will go with what the PROs decide to do after all it is their "ball" to play with.
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G_Money
12-28-2010, 03:14 PM
I know you said you were going to listen to the interview, if you haven't, you should. I just posted the link. About five minutes in they ask him about his background the perception that he's a contract guiy, and he says he's never been a "contract" guy. It's always been a very small part of his job.

He might be lieing, but he says this is his 17th season in NFL, started from ground up in ATL, worked his way on to Dan Reeve's coaching staff, which is what he says was how he earned his PHD in football. Learned about O, D and ST as a member of the coaching staff.

When the team was sold, they moved him to player personnel. Job under multiple GM's was to do college scouting, combination of film and going on the road scouting players. Also did free agent evaluation prior to free agent period. Only did contract research on the side. 90% of his job was watching film and evaluating players. Same here in Denver.

So, is he qualified? Is he lying about what his expereience? I don't know, but I think the whole 'cap guy' thing has grown as message board myths often do.

Sure, I'll bet he did all of those things. I do all sorts of things at my job. That doesn't mean I'm one of the 5 best in the country at them.

I don't doubt that he's done everything asked of him, including scouting and the rest. How well did he do it? He's never been a crackerjack scout, because no one has ever said about him, "he's a brilliant scouting mind" or "that guy just has a knack for great personnel decisions."

You know what they have said about him?

http://therocky.com/news/2009/feb/19/ex-boss-questions-new-broncos-gm-xanders/


Longtime NFL personnel executive Ken Herock hired Brian Xanders in Atlanta in 1994.

So Herock speaks from experience when he says the Broncos' new general manager has some significant challenges awaiting him in his new role.

"He had a good football background, played at Florida State, knew the game," Herock said Thursday. "I always thought he was a guy who was very impressive doing what he was doing. But I would say he needs to surround himself with some good personnel people because it's not something he has done before.

"He has never been in the situation where he listened to all of the information and then had to make the decision. And you don't know how somebody is going to be able to do that until they do it."

Herock, who worked with the Raiders, Packers and Falcons in his long career and now operates a consulting business for players headed to the scouting combine, said he hired Xanders to help the Falcons monitor the salary cap.

Xanders, 37, was appointed the Broncos' general manager a week ago after the team fired former executive vice president of football operations Jim Goodman and assistant general manager Jeff Goodman.

"Originally, we brought him in to work on the cap, No. 1, to keep track of some things, just a beginning for him to get involved," Herock said. "And I thought enough of him when I left Green Bay, I was interviewing for a job with the Washington Redskins, and I contacted him, but I didn't get the job, but I would have had him in scouting in some fashion.

"But Brian's never scouted on the road, he doesn't have those experiences of going on the road, being at the practices, getting in there and getting to know guys. That's his challenge. He knows the cap, he understands the cap and he knows the technology that's used now to get the job done. His big thing will be to make the call on whether a guy can play or not and that now he has to know it all.

"He has to be on target, and he's got to know everything, free agency, the draft, the top player in Canada, what you're going to do with the developmental squad, all of it. You have to know what the hell is going on and just being astute, just knowing technology can't save you. You have to find players, it's that simple.

His old boss considers him the technical-spreadsheet guy who knows some scouting, but has never had to look at a guy in a practice and say, "that's the one" out of a crowd of other guys.

So he NEEDS to find those people who are instinctual geniuses and listen to what they have to say.

Because it's not his gift, or at the very least not his demonstrated gift.

~G

Tned
12-28-2010, 03:17 PM
Good post overall but IMHO this was the most pertinent part as it applies to fans even MORESO.

As we habe no REAL clue as to the real inter workings within Dove Valley we are hard pressed to know for sure who did what.

I will go with what the PROs decide to do after all it is their "ball" to play with.
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Come on Jr, as many times as you have slammed Broncos players and coaches -- slammed them, over and over and over and over again -- I'm not sure you should be telling other fans to know their limitations when it comes to being critical of the front office, coaches or players.

Lonestar
12-28-2010, 03:31 PM
I know you said you were going to listen to the interview, if you haven't, you should. I just posted the link. About five minutes in they ask him about his background the perception that he's a contract guiy, and he says he's never been a "contract" guy. It's always been a very small part of his job.

He might be lieing, but he says this is his 17th season in NFL, started from ground up in ATL, worked his way on to Dan Reeve's coaching staff, which is what he says was how he earned his PHD in football. Learned about O, D and ST as a member of the coaching staff.

When the team was sold, they moved him to player personnel. Job under multiple GM's was to do college scouting, combination of film and going on the road scouting players. Also did free agent evaluation prior to free agent period. Only did contract research on the side. 90% of his job was watching film and evaluating players. Same here in Denver.

So, is he qualified? Is he lying about what his expereience? I don't know, but I think the whole 'cap guy' thing has grown as message board myths often do.
Danke for posting this

Debunking myths or the rewriting history is something you seem to be proud of.


Thanks again.
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Tned
12-28-2010, 03:33 PM
Sure, I'll bet he did all of those things. I do all sorts of things at my job. That doesn't mean I'm one of the 5 best in the country at them.

I don't doubt that he's done everything asked of him, including scouting and the rest. How well did he do it? He's never been a crackerjack scout, because no one has ever said about him, "he's a brilliant scouting mind" or "that guy just has a knack for great personnel decisions."

You know what they have said about him?

http://therocky.com/news/2009/feb/19/ex-boss-questions-new-broncos-gm-xanders/

His old boss considers him the technical-spreadsheet guy who knows some scouting, but has never had to look at a guy in a practice and say, "that's the one" out of a crowd of other guys.

So he NEEDS to find those people who are instinctual geniuses and listen to what they have to say.

Because it's not his gift, or at the very least not his demonstrated gift.

~G

I don't know enough about the Falcons to know whether Xanders and Herock overlapped the entire time. If so, based on those comments, it would seem that Xanders is lying, or distorting, his time on Reeve's coaching staff, and scouting, including on the road.

Was Herock the GM or with Atlanta from '94 when he was hired through 2008 or whever it was we hired him?

Tned
12-28-2010, 03:37 PM
Danke for posting this

Debunking myths or the rewriting history is something you seem to be proud of.


Thanks again.
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Jr, you took a comment about front office staff knowing their limitations as an opportunity to slam fans you disagree with, and tell them they have no inner knowledge and should trust the front ofice to know better. When you open that door, expect your past bashing of Broncos players and coaches to be brought up. Your insistence that Xanders was a real GM and McDaniels wasn't calling all the shots.

Stay on topic and don't bring other fans into it, individually or en mass, and your past as one of the most negative posters in Broncos message board history won't be revisited by me.

G_Money
12-28-2010, 03:49 PM
Was Herock the GM or with Atlanta from '94 when he was hired through 2008 or whever it was we hired him?
Nope, Herock was out of there a few years after he hired Xanders. He absolutely did not oversee Brian's entire tenure, and so might not be aware of extra duties Xanders was performing. Honestly, though, the field is small - everybody knows what everyone else is doing. Not daily, perhaps, but if you were going to hire a guy from another team to do a job you'd be aware of whether he was doing that job at his previous place of employment.

Since Herock had him on a short list to hire if he'd gotten the Redskins job, I would think he'd be familiar with the guy's resume. Maybe that's presuming too much and not giving enough credit to what Xanders himself says. I guess I'm just skeptical.

I also don't know that Xanders is misrepresenting his experience, but saying "I have done these things" is not the same as "I am excellent at these things."

The Falcons obviously did not view him as a GM candidate, and as far as I can tell never changed even his title in the 14 years he worked there. He was listed as "the Director of Football Administration and Player Personnel Analyst" for as long as I can find.

*shrugs* I don't hate Xanders. I just can't find anything in his resume that would make me think he's qualified to do it all as GM. So he'll need help.

That's not a slam.

If he realizes his limitations and hires quality people he will listen to, that'd be a first around here in quite a while.

Unless you count the brief Goodman/Shanahan phase after Sundquist was on the outs, which a lot of people don't.

~G

Tned
12-28-2010, 04:03 PM
Nope, Herock was out of there a few years after he hired Xanders. He absolutely did not oversee Brian's entire tenure, and so might not be aware of extra duties Xanders was performing. Honestly, though, the field is small - everybody knows what everyone else is doing. Not daily, perhaps, but if you were going to hire a guy from another team to do a job you'd be aware of whether he was doing that job at his previous place of employment.

Since Herock had him on a short list to hire if he'd gotten the Redskins job, I would think he'd be familiar with the guy's resume. Maybe that's presuming too much and not giving enough credit to what Xanders himself says. I guess I'm just skeptical.

I also don't know that Xanders is misrepresenting his experience, but saying "I have done these things" is not the same as "I am excellent at these things."

The Falcons obviously did not view him as a GM candidate, and as far as I can tell never changed even his title in the 14 years he worked there. He was listed as "the Director of Football Administration and Player Personnel Analyst" for as long as I can find.

*shrugs* I don't hate Xanders. I just can't find anything in his resume that would make me think he's qualified to do it all as GM. So he'll need help.

That's not a slam.

If he realizes his limitations and hires quality people he will listen to, that'd be a first around here in quite a while.

Unless you count the brief Goodman/Shanahan phase after Sundquist was on the outs, which a lot of people don't.

~G

FWIW, he said when the Falcons lost to the Broncos in the SB, it was his second year on Reeve's coaching staff, which would have been around when Herock left, it seems.

On the title, I'm on record about that related to the past 18 months. Titles really don't mean anything, it's doing the job you are tasked with doing. It's like Mike McCoy being the OC under McDaniels. Is he the same level of OC as most around the league? No, after McDaniels was fired he called plays for the first time in his career. When Heimerdinger was hired as Asst. HC - Offense, he was really the OC, where the guy with that title, Dennison, wasn't. Titles mean nothing .

What does matter, is what you bring up, which is how much player scouting has he really done, and how good is he at it. I have no clue. Truth is, none of us fans do. All we can hope is if the Broncos go with him, that he in fact is not only qualified to do the job, but highly qualified.

All of that said, again, I am not a Xanders for GM cheerleader. I am mostly coming from the "counter the BS and disinformation" angle.

Those posters (not you from what I can remember) calling him gutless, ball-less, not a viable candidate, etc. because he didn't make statements to the fans, via the media, the last two years about how McDaniels was misrepresenting their roles, or that Xanders didn't agree with some of the moves, are crazy and that's what I have been countering.

I brought up his history, because I listened to the interview for the first time, and unless Xanders is lying through his teeth, the label of contract and cap guy is way off the mark. That DOESN'T in and of itself make him a good choice as Broncos "real" GM, but it is worth bringing up for those fans that just assume everything they read on here is true.

JDL
12-28-2010, 04:36 PM
He has to throw him under the bus Stew, it's either that or he has to be tied at the hip to him in the eyes of the fans. Right now this organization is in damage control mode, McDaniels is taking the blunt of the blame and ORTON is second, Xanders wants to retain his job...so if Ellis is on the outs as some truly think, then he'll be the next tossed under the tires of that big yellow bus as well.

.


Fixed that for ya! ;)

Tned
01-04-2011, 04:46 PM
Nope, Herock was out of there a few years after he hired Xanders. He absolutely did not oversee Brian's entire tenure, and so might not be aware of extra duties Xanders was performing. Honestly, though, the field is small - everybody knows what everyone else is doing. Not daily, perhaps, but if you were going to hire a guy from another team to do a job you'd be aware of whether he was doing that job at his previous place of employment.

Since Herock had him on a short list to hire if he'd gotten the Redskins job, I would think he'd be familiar with the guy's resume. Maybe that's presuming too much and not giving enough credit to what Xanders himself says. I guess I'm just skeptical.

I also don't know that Xanders is misrepresenting his experience, but saying "I have done these things" is not the same as "I am excellent at these things."

The Falcons obviously did not view him as a GM candidate, and as far as I can tell never changed even his title in the 14 years he worked there. He was listed as "the Director of Football Administration and Player Personnel Analyst" for as long as I can find.

*shrugs* I don't hate Xanders. I just can't find anything in his resume that would make me think he's qualified to do it all as GM. So he'll need help.

That's not a slam.

If he realizes his limitations and hires quality people he will listen to, that'd be a first around here in quite a while.

Unless you count the brief Goodman/Shanahan phase after Sundquist was on the outs, which a lot of people don't.

~G

I know it's been a little while on this conversation, but I came across this quote today (actually I read it elsewhere last month, but saw it again today) and it seems Rich McKay of the Falcoms has both worked with Xanders more recently (and during the period that Xanders says he did far more than Herock describes) and has a different opinion of him.


"I'm biased because I like Brian so much and I have so much respect for him," Falcons president Rich McKay said. "One thing on Brian as far as having final say, he's had all the training that a general manager can have. But those are tough jobs to get, so it will be interesting to see how it all shakes out. But I know I had two of the guys I worked with, Jerry Angelo and Tim Ruskell, who went on to be GMs, and Brian is an equally qualified guy."

Read more: Broncos' GM Xanders' future role uncertain - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16889235

BigDaddyBronco
01-04-2011, 05:11 PM
Wow, that is kinda scary. Rich McKay is comparing Xanders to Jerry Angelo and Tim Ruskell. I hope he is better than them.

Ruskell had some pretty bad drafts in Seattle and let SteveHutchison get away without getting anything in return. He was dumped and later showed back up in Chicago under Jerry Angelo.
Jerry Angelo has had some crazy years with the Bears fighting with coaches and players. Kind of a A.J. Smith lite, except not as good at drafting talent.
Rich McKay was a pretty decent GM with Tampa Bay, but butted heads with Gruden. He had some pretty disasterous issues with Atlanta before Dimitroff came in and he became the team president with the Falcons.

So maybe Xanders can do the job, I just hope he is better at it than Angelo or Ruskell.

Tned
01-05-2011, 07:34 PM
Elway on Xanders: "Xanders was awarded that title [GM], but never really given the chance to really be the general manager of the Denver Broncos. He's going to be awarded that chance."

In addition, he pointed out Xanders experience coaching, scouting, etc.

Lancane
01-05-2011, 08:14 PM
Elway on Xanders: "Xanders was awarded that title [GM], but never really given the chance to really be the general manager of the Denver Broncos. He's going to be awarded that chance."

In addition, he pointed out Xanders experience coaching, scouting, etc.

I’m willing to give him a chance, he has Keith Kidd and Matt Russell under him, one as the Director of Pro Scouting and the other the Director of College Scouts. I think that will help him in his new, but old position as he takes the reigns sort of speak.

topscribe
01-05-2011, 08:21 PM
I’m willing to give him a chance, he has Keith Kidd and Matt Russell under him, one as the Director of Pro Scouting and the other the Director of College Scouts. I think that will help him in his new, but old position as he takes the reigns sort of speak.

Ellis and Bowlen knew what was going on with McDaniels and Xanders. If
Xanders was as heavily involved in the personnel blunders as some of us here
might think, I would think they would have canned his ass by now. So, based
on their continued faith in Xanders, my confidence in him has increased a bit.

-----

Lancane
01-05-2011, 08:26 PM
Ellis and Bowlen knew what was going on with McDaniels and Xanders. If
Xanders was as heavily involved in the personnel blunders as some of us here
might think, I would think they would have canned his ass by now. So, based
on their continued faith in Xanders, my confidence in him has increased a bit.

-----

That and I like what Elway said, “He can’t hide” and “He knows he’ll be held accountable”. In itself that helped restore some faith in the situation, I also like how Elway said that he researched into Brian Xanders and spoke with others about him. That tells me that he wanted to make sure they had the right guy or a good enough of one to go forward.

Tned
01-05-2011, 08:29 PM
Ellis and Bowlen knew what was going on with McDaniels and Xanders. If
Xanders was as heavily involved in the personnel blunders as some of us here
might think, I would think they would have canned his ass by now. So, based
on their continued faith in Xanders, my confidence in him has increased a bit.

-----

They theory is that Bowlen is somehow protecting Xanders and Ellis and willing to sacrifice the franchise to reward their loyalty. :confused: