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GEM
12-27-2010, 01:02 AM
As much as I love the guy, the question remains.....is he a liability on the field? He seemed out of position quite a bit today and just a few steps too slow to make a difference, much the opposite, actually looked to be a liability. Time to invest in some S's.

camdisco24
12-27-2010, 01:05 AM
Yeah... I hate it, but I have to agree. He had some big plays for us last year, and he's a stand up guy, but I think his age is catching up to him a bit.

sneakers
12-27-2010, 01:13 AM
If Brian Dawkins is our biggest problem on defense....then I'd say we are doing ok.

GEM
12-27-2010, 01:18 AM
If Brian Dawkins is our biggest problem on defense....then I'd say we are doing ok.

Nope, definitely not the biggest, sadly we have many. He is just becoming a more glaring problem than he has been in the past.

Skinny
12-27-2010, 01:26 AM
Yes. While he has lost a step he was still a upgrade over what we had before he got here. But it's time to move on. We can upgrade at the position. Something i hope we atleast look at or do rather through FAgency or the Draft. We need guys with range back there, an area where Dawkins has really struggled. Maybe get lucky and pick up DeAndre McDaniel with one of our 2nds. Great range, sound tackler, and a ball hawk with a LBs mentality. That would be my preferred fix for that position anyways.

Shazam!
12-27-2010, 01:32 AM
Unfortunately, he is done. I doubt he'll be on the team in 2011.

Jake Klug
12-27-2010, 01:45 AM
Yes. While he has lost a step he was still a upgrade over what we had before he got here. But it's time to move on. We can upgrade at the position. Something i hope we atleast look at or do rather through FAgency or the Draft. We need guys with range back there, an area where Dawkins has really struggled. Maybe get lucky and pick up DeAndre McDaniel with one of our 2nds. Great range, sound tackler, and a ball hawk with a LBs mentality. That would be my preferred fix for that position anyways.

Isnt McDaniels similar to Perrish Cox with having a past?

PAINTERDAVE
12-27-2010, 01:46 AM
Dawk is a huge, huge talent... who came her for the big bucks to finish his career.

I think it might be time.

Love ya, man... you are/were one of the primo guys...

Class, quality, talent and leadership... you had it in spades.

BORDERLINE
12-27-2010, 01:55 AM
yup, his time here is up and i consider him a top of the line safety in his prime.

much like john lynch he gave what he had left in the tank to denver and i thank him for that.

Skinny
12-27-2010, 02:05 AM
Isnt McDaniels similar to Perrish Cox with having a past?

Don't know if it's the same as Cox but during his sophmore season he was arrested after getting in a fight with his girfreind and charged with aggrevated assault. If it means anything, he's been a good little boy ever since.

Clipworthy
12-27-2010, 02:59 AM
I'd still take dawkins at safety over anyone else on our roster, and any of the safeties in this draft

broncofaninfla
12-27-2010, 06:16 AM
I agree, Dawkins is a liabilty now. He's too slow for pass protection and is missing the tackles he has always made in the past. DJ is a liability as well for the same reasons.

Slick
12-27-2010, 08:22 AM
He is most definitely a liability in pass coverage, and not the run support demon he used to be. I don't like Hill much either but if we don't start with tightening up the front 7 we are idiots.

HORSEPOWER 56
12-27-2010, 08:49 AM
Other than the D-line play, the ability for our LBs and Safeties to cover TEs has been our achilles heel on defense. Antonio Gates has always had huge games against us. Brent Celek, Dallas Clark, Marcedes Lewis, Owen Daniels yesterday, the list goes on and on.

We just don't, and haven't in as long as I can remember, cover the TE well. The only times in the recent past I can remember decent coverage of TEs was when we either put Champ on Tony Gonzales, or used to run the "big nickel" with Sam Brandon exclusively covering the TE.

Our Safeties have, since I can remember, been "hitters", not cover guys. Atwater and Smith weren't great in coverage but they could knock your block off. How about Lynch and Kennoy Kennedy/Nick Ferguson? 2 Strong Safeties in the same secondary? Great in run support and big hitters, bad in coverage. Now we've got Dawkins and Hill. Hill is already a converted CB and even though he hasn't been terrible in coverage, he rarely draws the matchup vs the TE. Normally, he is the center-fielder and Dawkins is the in the box guy who ends up on the TE or the back if a LB doesn't already have that responsibility.

Dawkins was fantastic for many years, but he's hitting the wall and breaking down. It happens. He was a shell of his former self (on the physical side) when he got here and has struggled mightily with injuries all season. I think it's time to suck it up and spend the money this year on a proven, young FA Safety. They are usually out there, we just go after the grizzled vets (Lynch, Dawkins) than we do the younger guys. Isn't Dawan Landry supposed to be a FA this spring? Get him in here!

We just need someone who can cover a TE and maybe tackle a RB from time to time. You know, something most LBs and all Safeties should be able to do?

BigSarge87
12-27-2010, 09:42 AM
We just need someone who can cover a TE and maybe tackle a RB from time to time. You know, something most LBs and all Safeties should be able to do?

What's the latest on moving Champ to FS? He's the best tackler on the team and still has several years left in him he could be shutting down TE's. Something yells me he would love the opportunity to blitz more often too.

I bet the Broncos could move down a couple spots, get another good pick or two, and still pick up a good CB to take his place.

Just a thought.

D. Moore
12-27-2010, 10:04 AM
Dawkins has seen better days and Hill just isnt that good. I say move Champ to safety and bring in Donte Whitner from buffalo in FA.
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MileHiWildcat
12-27-2010, 11:32 AM
Dawkins is a liability. On the last HOU drive, they only needed a few 1st downs. On the first 3rd down he was covering a receiver on the left side of the HOU line. He was lined up about 15 yards back. I said to myself - they only need 7 or 8 yards - why is he lined up so far back ? Shaub will throw it to that receiver. Sure enough, the guy ran the required 1st down yardage, turned, and was thrown the ball. First down. There were more than a few times that the guy Dawkins was supposed to be covering got a big gain or big 1st down. Dawkins should be honest with himself and retire.

Skacorica
12-27-2010, 06:44 PM
Move Champ to FS, sign Quintin Mikell away from the Eagles and boom, we have ourselves a ridiculously potent (though possibly expensive :( ) defensive backfield, assuming we can find someone decent to draft at corner.

silkamilkamonico
12-27-2010, 06:47 PM
Move Champ to FS, sign Quintin Mikell away from the Eagles and boom, we have ourselves a ridiculously potent (though possibly expensive :( ) defensive backfield, assuming we can find someone decent to draft at corner.

I think moving Champ to S would be an excellent investment assuming we seriously invest at the CB. Champ would be getting paid a boatload for a S, but he's also someone who can fill in as a CB in certain situations as well. I think if we had good young depth at S this would be an excellent idea.

Ziggy
12-27-2010, 07:07 PM
If I remember correctly, Bdawk's contract was structured in a way that we can release him this offseason without any penalty. I think it's time to let the man go and get more athletic at the position.

As far as Champ goes, I see no reason to move him to safety now. He's still a top corner in this league. It would be easier to find a decent safety than an elite corner this offseason. Sign Champ long term and move him when he loses his edge at CB.

Ziggy
12-27-2010, 07:25 PM
Just found this tidbit while searching for Dawkins contract. I had no idea:

THE STATISTICAL IMPACT OF DAWKINS’ INJURIES:

The Broncos have allowed four 200-yard rushing games this year. Three have come in the five games Dawkins has missed.

Denver has allowed over 100 more yards in the games it played without Dawkins (223.4 yards) than the ones he played (122.3 yards).

Opponents have averaged 5.7 yards per carry when not facing a Broncos defense with Dawkins, compared with just 3.9 yards per carry in the games he played.

Denver has yielded as many touchdowns of 25 or more yards in the nine games they played with Dawkins as the five games they played without him (six).

The Broncos have allowed more offensive touchdowns per game without Dawkins (3.6) than with him (3.2) and more points overall (35.0 to 26.7).

http://maxdenver.com/blog1/2010/12/23/dawkins-hes-been-missed/



Here are the details of his contract:
2/28/2009: Signed a five-year, $17 million contract. The deal includes $7.2 million guaranteed. Another $10 million is available via performance incentives. 2010: $1.82 million, 2011-2013: 4.6 million (Voidable Years), 2014: Free Agent

Skacorica
12-27-2010, 08:19 PM
I think moving Champ to S would be an excellent investment assuming we seriously invest at the CB. Champ would be getting paid a boatload for a S, but he's also someone who can fill in as a CB in certain situations as well. I think if we had good young depth at S this would be an excellent idea.

Exactly, get some great young talent to learn under he + another vet and we could be set for quite some time to come

G_Money
12-27-2010, 08:23 PM
I'd void those years and let him walk.

Dawkins was a great player. Great. Now...it's very much like Lynch's last year. Problem is, we drafted a bunch of safeties and none of em can actually replace him.

Bruton should only ever play special teams. I'd give McBath the chance, but I'm not enamored with him.

But until we get some consistent pressure on a QB, we've got no chance of seeing good safety play, and we're wasting most of what we pay Champ.

Make the best you can out of McBath, Bruton and Thompson for patching the back 4 while we fix the front seven. Cox may not be here depending on the outcome of his case, but if he is throw him back there too. I'm not a fan of Hill, Goodman breaks too easily, and Dawkins should retire.

Play the kids, see if a talent drops in the draft and snag him, and fix the problems up front and in the middle.

We've devoted too much money and draftpicks to the secondary over the last few years, and have proven without a shadow of a doubt that without an effective front seven, the back 4 might as well not even play.

~G

I Eat Staples
12-27-2010, 08:51 PM
Dawkins never could cover good, now he's even worse at it and bad at everything he used to be good at. He's a terrible player, waste of money and space. Replace him.

Canmore
12-27-2010, 09:14 PM
...As far as Champ goes, I see no reason to move him to safety now. He's still a top corner in this league. It would be easier to find a decent safety than an elite corner this offseason. Sign Champ long term and move him when he loses his edge at CB.

^^^^ This. Pay the man.

I Eat Staples
12-27-2010, 09:22 PM
Champ has already lost his edge at CB. He's a good corner, no longer a great one. Too easily injured and inconsistent. Still love him though.

Denver Native (Carol)
12-27-2010, 09:24 PM
I am not ready to throw Dawkins under the bus quite yet. He has been hurt a lot this year, and possibly never fully recovered.

Clipworthy
12-27-2010, 09:29 PM
Champ has already lost his edge at CB. He's a good corner, no longer a great one. Too easily injured and inconsistent. Still love him though.

how many top WR's does he have to shutdown to make you change your mind, 103?

Sinthor
12-27-2010, 09:30 PM
As much as I love the guy, the question remains.....is he a liability on the field? He seemed out of position quite a bit today and just a few steps too slow to make a difference, much the opposite, actually looked to be a liability. Time to invest in some S's.

I wouldn't say he's a LIABILITY. I think he's the best of our options right now. I noticed he was slower on Sunday and had some issues covering, but he wasn't that way earlier in the year (that I noticed). That to me means that he's obviously not 100% on the knee. That wouldn't be uncommon, after all MOST of these guys come back from injuries before they're actually healed.

I noticed on Arian Foster's run that Champ was stuck behind him by about 1-2 yards for most of the run. I can't recall seeing Champ NOT catch up with a guy like that before and Foster's not the fastest guy in the league, so it was pretty obvious to me that Champ's ankle/foot issue is/was hampering him as well. Didn't make him a liability either. I think we're being a little hard on the guy. I think Dawkins is the kind of guy that will gracefully retire once he sees and thinks that he can't play at a high level anymore.

I Eat Staples
12-27-2010, 09:49 PM
how many top WR's does he have to shutdown to make you change your mind, 103?

Um I'll start with someone other than Dwayne Bowe, but I like your high standards.

Ziggy
12-27-2010, 10:33 PM
Um I'll start with someone other than Dwayne Bowe, but I like your high standards.

Champ had a bad game against Bowe the first time and it was Champ's only bad game of the year. He completely shut down Bowe in thier next matchup.

I Eat Staples
12-27-2010, 10:52 PM
Champ had a bad game against Bowe the first time and it was Champ's only bad game of the year. He completely shut down Bowe in thier next matchup.

That's what I meant, Bowe was the only elite receiver he completely shut down.

Clipworthy
12-27-2010, 11:08 PM
reggie wayne? fitzgerald? both did nearly nothing against champ

GEM
12-27-2010, 11:23 PM
reggie wayne? fitzgerald? both did nearly nothing against champ

Fitz as completely frustrated. :lol:

Jake Klug
12-27-2010, 11:26 PM
Fitz as completely frustrated. :lol:

There was talk earlier of him moving on because he's fed up with not playing with a decent QB.

CrazyHorse
12-27-2010, 11:30 PM
Dawkins was the reason we won the game. If it wasn't for him the pass doesn't get tipped for the interception.

Clipworthy
12-28-2010, 02:32 AM
Dawkins was the reason we won the game. If it wasn't for him the pass doesn't get tipped for the interception.

agreed. dawkins may be old, but he gives absolutely everything he has every game. hes the one who ran down Foster to save a TD too

Superchop 7
12-28-2010, 11:05 AM
I think Dawkins needs to walk.

Champ has done a good job, but isn't the "stick your nose in" type of run supporter that he used to be.

With Champ, its dollars and sense. Pay him "fair" value and thats it, if he wants too much......let him go.

I Eat Staples
12-28-2010, 11:34 AM
reggie wayne? fitzgerald? both did nearly nothing against champ

Wayne had 4 catches for 65 yards, and Fitz had 6 catches for 72 yards. Not bad, but he didn't completely shut them down.

pnbronco
12-28-2010, 11:45 AM
I am not ready to throw Dawkins under the bus quite yet. He has been hurt a lot this year, and possibly never fully recovered.

Me neither Carol. Also when they asked Lloyd last night on The Fan what Tebow said in the locker at half time, he replied he kept his mouth shut. He's a rookie and he knows his place. The person that talked and inspired us was Dawkins.

Clipworthy
12-28-2010, 09:37 PM
Wayne had 4 catches for 65 yards, and Fitz had 6 catches for 72 yards. Not bad, but he didn't completely shut them down.

was not lined up against them the entire game. most of the catches came when he wasn't