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View Full Version : Really, How Good was Orton this Season?



BroncoStud
12-24-2010, 12:08 AM
Let's see what the numbers say...


Completion Percentage: 58.8% (25th in NFL)

Josh Freeman, Sam Bradford, Jon Kitna, David Garrard, Matt Cassel, Shaun Hill (LoL), and the amazing Chad Henne ALL finished better than Kyle.


QB Rating: 87.5 (18th in NFL)

Josh Freeman, Matt Cassel, Jon Kitna, and David Garrard ALL finished better than Kyle.


Touchdowns: 20 (14th in NFL)

David Garrard, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Carson Palmer, and Matt Cassel ALL finished better than Kyle.


Average Yards Per Completion: 7.3 (12th in NFL)

Jason Campbell, David Garrard, and Jon Kitna ALL finished better than Kyle.


Interceptions: 9 (11th in NFL)

Not too bad, there are a lot of guys between 8-12 interceptions. Eli has the most with 20.


Yards: 3,653 (5th in NFL)

Clearly his best stat and pretty much the only GOOD stat he has. This is what Orton supporters hang their hats on. Orton averages 38.3 passing attempts per game.


3rd down conversions: 31% (30th in NFL)

Only the Redskins and Cardinals are worse, and both of their starting QBs are benched and probably done on those teams.


Points Per Game: 20.9 (20th in NFL)

Hey, at least we aren't Carolina (13.1 Points Per Game)...



So I keep hearing that Mr. Orton had a great season, his personal statistics were solid, he was the bright spot in the lineup, etc, etc.

The numbers don't lie, do they?

Northman
12-24-2010, 12:14 AM
Man, some of you guys sure have an axe to grind. Orton isnt even the starter anymore so why all the continued fuss?

BroncoTech
12-24-2010, 12:20 AM
Number sure don't lie, and they are 3 wins and 10 loses. He had a lot of help from the defense getting there BUT I won't hang any medals from his neck for collecting junk passing yards against 4 deep soft zone coverages while getting blown out. If he's a bright spot on the roster (he isn't) and he's gone next year it just shows how much work we have in front of us to become respectable again.

Juriga72
12-24-2010, 12:38 AM
For all the "He just wins!!!!" he doesnt

Here's a few "Great Kyle Orton stat"-

He has 9 wins with a qb rating of LESS than 70, he has 9 games where he has thrown for more than 300 yards. 28.1% of his wins

In 39 of the 61 games Kyle Orton has played, the offense has scored 20 points or LESS-
63.9% of ALL games with Kyle Orton as qb score 20 pts or less.

He has been the winning QB in 8 games with zero td passes thrown in it. 25% of his wins

robert ethan
12-24-2010, 01:03 AM
Why get on Orton's jock? I think he is a legit top 10 QB in the league on a decent team. He still has a better winning percentage than Tebow or Cutler for his career, and I'd venture to say the Bears of the past were at least as bad as the Broncos. All those numbers are just a snapshot in his career. The guy just turned 28, he could have a decade in the league ahead of him.

BroncoTech
12-24-2010, 01:14 AM
Even if our defense held each opponent to 17 points this year we would only be 7-7. Middle of the road journeyman describes Orton better than top 10 quarterback.


Why get on Orton's jock? I think he is a legit top 10 QB in the league on a decent team. He still has a better winning percentage than Tebow or Cutler for his career, and I'd venture to say the Bears of the past were at least as bad as the Broncos. All those numbers are just a snapshot in his career. The guy just turned 28, he could have a decade in the league ahead of him.

EMB6903
12-24-2010, 01:16 AM
Another thread breaking down stats to prove why Orton sucks?

Its unnessesary, those of us who watched the games this year realize how bad Orton is.

PAINTERDAVE
12-24-2010, 02:24 AM
Yeah... enough is enough.

When he was still starting...
it is one thing...

now dude is on the 3rd string for the rest of the season...

He is a Bronco...
he gave us everything he could...

It just is time to stop politicking to get Tebow in the game.
He's in.

Time to let go of the reasons why.

It is what it is....

Time to live in the now and look forward to tomorrow.

Orton represents the past. Let it rest.

JDL
12-24-2010, 03:09 AM
In those first 11 games (a pretty healthy sampling you are trying to discount); Mr. Orton's stats

265comp 429att 20TDs 6INT 3370yds QB Rating 96.00 (That would rate 6th!!! in the NFL)

So, the numbers don't lie DO THEY?!!!! :eek:


Please shut the hell up about how bad Orton was this year and how he lost us 10games (not the non-existent rushing attack that was historically bad for most of the season and a defense LAST in the NFL in points allowed)... really... you just look dumb and it is embarrassing.

He fell off a cliff presumably due to injury and more important he LOOKED injured out there whether you believe it or not and there was a stark contrast between his first 11 games and last 2 where his arm looked like it had evaporated, that doesn't erase what he did the first 11 games and the only reason we were competitive in SOME games this year was him. F-ing unimaginable stupidity to keep trying to throw the guy under the bus.

PAINTERDAVE
12-24-2010, 03:23 AM
Deal is...

the bus has left the station...

it is a moot point.

silkamilkamonico
12-24-2010, 03:33 AM
Orton was not bad this year/ Anybody who thinks otherwsie is football ignorant.

He's simply the type of player that needs a great all around team to be successful. He isn't going to make a team successful himself. It's why Denver is probably moving beyond Orton, and with good reason.

JDL
12-24-2010, 03:48 AM
Orton was not bad this year/ Anybody who thinks otherwsie is football ignorant.

He's simply the type of player that needs a great all around team to be successful. He isn't going to make a team successful himself. It's why Denver is probably moving beyond Orton, and with good reason.

And there's nothing wrong with that POV but some people seem to be on a mission to make Orton the most hated Bronco on the team... it makes zero sense.

JDL
12-24-2010, 03:57 AM
Deal is...

the bus has left the station...

it is a moot point.

Probably isn't unless you believe

1) Tebow can prove to the new coach he deserves to the starter in training camp

and

2) Tebow is able to provide enough in game evidence at the start of next year to prove Orton shouldn't be inserted.

Orton won't win you games, but he is rarely the cause of you losing... that's what he is and always has been and he can be a Trent Dilfer-type and we may very well need that unless we want either

1) Brady Quinn or another Chris Simms, Patrick Ramsey or some other street scrub QB sitting behind an a) 2nd year QB who hasn't proven anything and b) that runs an awful lot and has already been injured once while rushing.

or

2) another rookie QB sitting behind Tebow ready to step in cut his teeth and basically piss away the 2011 season.

It just seems like some people don't want to win in 2011, they just want to see what Tebow has and if it costs the season, so be it... that seems highly unnecessary and there are a lot of areas of this football team that need to be fixed and it might help to fix them having a QB ready and capable of executing a full game plan (thereby allowing other players on offense and units in general) to better perform... if the offense gets more first downs it allows the d to get better and stay off the field more, a QB who can orchestrate a more complex passing attack will allow the rushing game to develop more and give the OL a break from D's stacking the line. It isn't so awful to bring Tebow along slowly imo and if we fix the other areas of the team, I think you can win games with Orton and even a lot of games... but, he isn't really what you want in a franchise QB, but he is surely as good as a guy like Kerry Collins and can do things to help you win games if given the proper support. There are not a lot of guys playing QB in the league anywhere near as good as Orton sitting on the bench, hell he is better than most starters... so is it really awful to have the 22nd, 25th best QB in the league (at worst) as your Veteran presence and backup? Surely people can find other issues with this team to worry about rather than Orton being on it... just damn silly to hate the guy... really damn silly.

BroncoStud
12-24-2010, 04:05 AM
In those first 11 games (a pretty healthy sampling you are trying to discount); Mr. Orton's stats

265comp 429att 20TDs 6INT 3370yds QB Rating 96.00 (That would rate 6th!!! in the NFL)

So, the numbers don't lie DO THEY?!!!! :eek:


Please shut the hell up about how bad Orton was this year and how he lost us 10games (not the non-existent rushing attack that was historically bad for most of the season and a defense LAST in the NFL in points allowed)... really... you just look dumb and it is embarrassing.

He fell off a cliff presumably due to injury and more important he LOOKED injured out there whether you believe it or not and there was a stark contrast between his first 11 games and last 2 where his arm looked like it had evaporated, that doesn't erase what he did the first 11 games and the only reason we were competitive in SOME games this year was him. F-ing unimaginable stupidity to keep trying to throw the guy under the bus.

Nah, I don't think I'll "shut the hell up"... I also won't just use the stats I WANT TO or feel I need to validate a point. Obviously, you can't just use Orton's stats from the games you want, his first 11, or his best 3, or whatever. All things being equal, I used stats for the season. All QB's get banged up, many of them have missed games, etc, etc.

It's just more of the same from you. You know it all and every other Denver fan who doesn't agree with your frankly WRONG opinions is just wrong and a bad fan... Whatever kiddo. The numbers don't lie. Orton was a below average QB this season in many areas, not the Pro Bowler you made him out to be.

SR
12-24-2010, 10:29 AM
Statistically, he was good. If you watch him, he's not good. He eats sacks, makes bad throws, doesn't ever turn up his game to try to win it or bury teams because he knows how to play one brand of football and one brand of football only with complete disregard to the score, and he's boring. If he thinks he's going to be here next year and start, he's high. You don't get benched in favor of Tebow 13 games in to the season, then start next year.

chazoe60
12-24-2010, 11:26 AM
How good was Orton?


He sucked.

/thread

MileHiWildcat
12-24-2010, 11:59 AM
Why get on Orton's jock? I think he is a legit top 10 QB in the league on a decent team. He still has a better winning percentage than Tebow or Cutler for his career, and I'd venture to say the Bears of the past were at least as bad as the Broncos. All those numbers are just a snapshot in his career. The guy just turned 28, he could have a decade in the league ahead of him.

OMG - quoting Tebow win percentage ??? Reach much ? Face it - Orton is not and never has been a winner.

I Eat Staples
12-24-2010, 11:26 PM
Since so many people have enough time to look up every last stat regarding Orton, I dare someone to find out how many hairs were in his neckbeard.

Juriga72
12-24-2010, 11:33 PM
Since so many people have enough time to look up every last stat regarding Orton, I dare someone to find out how many hairs were in his neckbeard.

I looked at kipped.... and it said that Kyle suffered a terrible burn to his neck in college.... Seems Kyle's neckbeard is a toupee' made out of goat hairs

THAT would explain alot.

BroncoStud
12-25-2010, 01:34 AM
Since so many people have enough time to look up every last stat regarding Orton, I dare someone to find out how many hairs were in his neckbeard.

I would say... a LOT.

jhildebrand
12-25-2010, 02:26 PM
In those first 11 games (a pretty healthy sampling you are trying to discount); Mr. Orton's stats

Why cherry pick the stats? The op posted the stats as a whole which obviously speak volumes.

If you were truly concerned about a good sample, why not take his entrie set of stats going back to week 1 of last year? :confused:

Truthfully, the QB gets more credit/criticism for the team's results than they deserve but that is pro football. It has always been that way and always will.

Orton, on third down, has been a problem and a BIG ONE. But like North said, why grind the axe? The move has been made and rightfully so in the opinion of many!

jhildebrand
12-25-2010, 02:29 PM
He still has a better winning percentage than Tebow or Cutler for his career, and I'd venture to say the Bears of the past were at least as bad as the Broncos.

:lol:

Don't pull a muscle stretching, RE! :laugh:

When did Orton win the North? :confused:

Orton's Bears teams were far better than the two Cutler has had. The bears were a foregone conlcusion to finish last or second to last in the North yet they beat GB and MN and own the North.

Nice try.

Poet
12-25-2010, 03:07 PM
He overachieved. If anyone thinks he was a BAD or below average QB they're in need of help.

If anyone thinks he was elite or great they're in need of help.

Juriga72
12-28-2010, 11:27 PM
In those first 11 games (a pretty healthy sampling you are trying to discount); Mr. Orton's stats

265comp 429att 20TDs 6INT 3370yds QB Rating 96.00 (That would rate 6th!!! in the NFL)

So, the numbers don't lie DO THEY?!!!! :eek:


Please shut the hell up about how bad Orton was this year and how he lost us 10games (not the non-existent rushing attack that was historically bad for most of the season and a defense LAST in the NFL in points allowed)... really... you just look dumb and it is embarrassing.

He fell off a cliff presumably due to injury and more important he LOOKED injured out there whether you believe it or not and there was a stark contrast between his first 11 games and last 2 where his arm looked like it had evaporated, that doesn't erase what he did the first 11 games and the only reason we were competitive in SOME games this year was him. F-ing unimaginable stupidity to keep trying to throw the guy under the bus.

Even with these numbers NO ONE voted him to the Pro Bowl.....

So either 82 MILLION people are wrong, or you just cant see how bad Kyle is.

KCL
12-28-2010, 11:48 PM
Man, some of you guys sure have an axe to grind. Orton isnt even the starter anymore so why all the continued fuss?

No shit..I hope Denver releases him and KC does the same thing
with Croyle and KC signs him...we are in dire need of a decent backup.

Dzone
12-29-2010, 03:11 AM
No shit..I hope Denver releases him and KC does the same thing
with Croyle and KC signs him...we are in dire need of a decent backup.
Please take him! Please! Not only does he suck as a quarterback, he is the dullest press conference/interview you will ever have to sit through. If he isnt dull, then he is acting like a jerk.

zbeg
12-29-2010, 03:11 AM
So I keep hearing that Mr. Orton had a great season, his personal statistics were solid, he was the bright spot in the lineup, etc, etc.

The numbers don't lie, do they?

Numbers don't lie? Let's take a historical view, specifically John Elway:

Passer rating: 79.9 (59th in history)
Eli Manning, Steve Beuerlein, Ken O'Brien, Jeff George, Damon Huard, Boomer Esiason, Jake Delhomme, Dave Krieg, Danny White, Neil O'Donnell, Matt Hasselbeck, Jason Campbell, Brad Johnson, Sonny Jurgensen, Neil Lomax, Brian Griese, Steve McNair, Marc Bulger, Shaun Hill, Matt Cassel, David Garrard, Trent Green, Tony Romo, and Joe Flacco all have a higher career passer rating than John Elway.


Yards per attempt: 7.1, (63rd in history)
Jake Delhomme, Dave Krieg, Charley Johnson, Neil Lomax, Steve Beuerlein, Bobby layne, Milt Plump, Tommy Thompson, Bob Waterfield, Ken Anderson, Billy Wade, Eddie LeBaron, Lynn Dickey, Steve Grogan, George Ratterman, Frank Ryan, Trent Green, Earl Morrall, Bob Berry, and Ed Brown had a better yards per attempt average than John Elway.


Yards per completion: 12.5, (98th in history)
Joe Ferguson, Scott Brunner, Bob Avellini, gary Hogeboom, Richard Todd, Bobby Douglas, Pat Haden, Randy Johnson, Jim Finks, Joe Kapp, Glenn Dobbs, Frankie Albert, Joe Piscarcik, James Harris, Milt Plum, Jim Hardy, Rudy Bukich, Al Dorow, Billy Wade, Norm Snead, Zeke Bratkowski, Dick Wood, Doug Williams, Charlie Conerly, Bobby Thomason, Jim Ninowski, Bob Barry, Adrian Burk, Charley Johnson, Jay Schroeder, Steve Ramsey, John Hadl, Tobin Rote, Tommy Thompson, George Ratterman, Pete Beathard, Tom Flores, Steve Grogan, Paul Christman, Bob Waterfield, Babe Parilli, Bill Nelsen, Frank Ryan, Jack Kemp, Eddie LeBaron, Cotton Davidson, Lamar McHan, Ed Brown, Arnie Herber all had a better yards per completion average than John Elway.

NFL career pass interception percentage: 3.1 (42nd in history)
Trent Green, Jeff Hostetler, Jim Harbaugh, Jim Miller, Mark Bulger, Neil Lomax, Jeff George, Brad Johnson, Damon Huard, Ken O'Brien, Byron Leftwitch, Bernie Kosar, Steve Bono, Kent Graham, KYLE ORTON, Shaun Hill, Jason Campbell, David Garrard, Matt Cassel, Mark Brunell, Jeff Garcia, and Neil O'Donnell had a lower career interception percentage than John Elway.

Passes completed per game: 17.6 (32nd in history)
KYLE ORTON, Chad Pennington, Joe Flacco, Eli Manning, Jason Campbell, Brian Griese, Trent Green, Daunte Culpepper, Jon Kitna, Jay Cutler, and Mark Bulger had a higher number of completed passes per game than John Elway.

Pass completion percentage 56.9% (86th in history)
Jake Plummer, Tommy Maddox, Alex Smith, Gary Danielson, Steve DeBerg, Erik Kramer, Rodney Peete, Wade Wilson, Neil Lomax, Josh McCown, Jim Everett, Ty Detmer, Neil O'Donnell, Vince Young, Jeff George, Eli Manning, Jim McMahon, Jeff Hostetler, KYLE ORTON, Chris Chandler, Tony Eason, Byron Leftwitch, Jim Miller, Dave Krieg, Ken O'Brien, Jay Fiedler, Jim Harbaugh, Bobby Hebert, Elvis Grbac, J.P. Losman, Ken Anderson, Jake Delhomme, Matt Cassel, Mark Brunell, David Carr, Danny White, Tim Couch, Ken Stabler, Matt Hasselbeck, Steve McNair, Jon Kitna, Hugh Millen, Trent Green, Damon Huard, Jason Campbell, Trent Edwards, Shaun Hill, Chad Henne, David Garrard, Brad Johnson, Jay Cutler, Joe Flacco, Mark Bulger, and Brian Griese all had a higher pass completion percentage than John Elway.

Care to revisit the "numbers don't lie" thing, or do I need to keep going?

Context is very important when looking at statistics, especially a quarterback's. Having zero run game and poor pass protection hurts a quarterback's production a lot, which is what Orton had to deal with. If you don't look at the context of the guy's numbers, you would conclude that John Elway was roughly the 50th best quarterback in the history of the NFL. When you just vomit out numbers and rankings, that's what you'll get - out of context numbers that don't mean anything.

Yes, the numbers DO lie. They can lie a heck of a lot, actually.

UrbanBounca
12-29-2010, 03:17 AM
I'll be honest, I was on the Orton bandwagon when the season started and he was putting up fantastic numbers. However, as the season progressed, you notice that all his yards are garbage yards. He's fantastic between the 20's, but that's it. I hope we stick with Tebow for the simple fact Tebow has proven he can get into the endzone. Hell, Tebow is willing to put his body on the line for a TD.

Bosco
12-29-2010, 04:30 AM
Let's remember that those numbers were skewed by two very bad games where he was battling a rib injury. Prior to that he was ranked alot higher in most of those categories.

As for how good he is? He's good, but not franchise quarterback good. He's served his purpose here and Tebow has looked good so flip him for whatever value you can get and move forward with Tebow and Quinn.

ursamajor
12-29-2010, 06:43 AM
All of this Orton hate-I don't really get it. He met and exceeded his expectations in Denver.

TBT, he would be a perfect fit for Minn. Please dont trade him there.

sneakers
12-29-2010, 06:48 AM
I'd say he did pretty well considering we are dead last in rushing this year and the whole offense was dependent on him.

Juriga72
12-29-2010, 08:33 AM
Numbers don't lie? Let's take a historical view, specifically John Elway:

Yes, the numbers DO lie. They can lie a heck of a lot, actually.

Elway- 5 Super Bowls
14-7 playoff record
9 Pro Bowls
47- 4th quarter comebacks
Pro Football Hall of Fame-2004

Yeah... I'd say numbers do LIE a heck of alot too

Here are Kyle's numbers....

0- plays during Bears Super Bowl season Kyle played
0-Playoff games Kyle started
0-Pro Bowls
3- Times benched for OTHER quarterback on team
1,000,000- Excuses why "Kyle was hurt when he played, he's a gamer"


Let go slowly again- NO ONE outside of here thought Kyle was good enough for the Pro Bowl...NO ONE. The voting was during Kyle's "Dream season".. and he didnt make it

89 MILLION people voted and guess what..... "Kyle still sucks" What will the "Next Kyle Orton excuse" be?

Juriga72
12-29-2010, 08:40 AM
I'd say he did pretty well considering we are dead last in rushing this year and the whole offense was dependent on him.

Really..."Dead Last"...

How come the Colts have fewer yards than us, MORE people on IR and yet seemed to make the playoffs this year WINNING yet again the AFC South?

How come BOTH the Chicago Bears and Colts had the same YPC as we do ( 3.8)... YET... Both seemed to be in the playoffs?

How come......... We are top ten in ONE thing..... "Total Punts"?

zbeg
12-29-2010, 08:52 AM
Elway- 5 Super Bowls
14-7 playoff record
9 Pro Bowls
47- 4th quarter comebacks
Pro Football Hall of Fame-2004

Yeah... I'd say numbers do LIE a heck of alot too


Wait, Kyle Orton ISN'T AS GOOD AS JOHN ELWAY? Wow, that's a great way to make your point that Orton isn't good.

Wait, Tebow's not in the Hall of Fame and he hasn't been to five superbowls either! Better get rid of him, too! Not sure who you could get to replace him. Maybe Tom Brady, but...OH NO! He's ALSO NOT IN THE HALL OF FAME. And he's only been to four Super Bowls! NOOOOOOOooooooooooooooo

When you look at Elway's efficiency stats, he's lucky to crack the top 50. Not top 10, or top 5, TOP FIFTY. If you didn't know anything about football and started going through the lists for efficiency stats, you wouldn't even think Elway was good, let alone an all-time great.

Of course, if you look at the context of Elway's teams, the o-line, the running game, the receivers, the coaching style, then it makes sense why his numbers aren't great.

Hey, just like Kyle Orton!




Let go slowly again- NO ONE outside of here thought Kyle was good enough for the Pro Bowl...NO ONE. The voting was during Kyle's "Dream season".. and he didnt make it


Ah, so your argument for while Kyle Orton sucks this year is because he's:

1. Not as good as John Elway.
2. Not as good as Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, or Phillip Rivers, the three QBs who made the AFC Pro Bowl roster this year.

Also, I don't think anyone is arguing that he was anything special in Chicago. But THIS SEASON, he was quite good, and among the top quarterbacks in the league until his last two starts, when he was trying to play through an apparent injury.

Presumably in order for Orton to not suck, then, is for him to develop the ability to shoot lasers out of his eyes, and maybe save a baby from a burning building as part of the halftime show.

Sheesh.

gator_fan
12-29-2010, 09:04 AM
Would fans here be more optimistic about playing the Chargers this Sunday, if Orton was starting? Or Tebow?

Juriga72
12-29-2010, 09:07 AM
Wait, Kyle Orton ISN'T AS GOOD AS JOHN ELWAY? Wow, that's a great way to make your point that Orton isn't good.

Wait, Tebow's not in the Hall of Fame and he hasn't been to five superbowls either! Better get rid of him, too! Not sure who you could get to replace him. Maybe Tom Brady, but...OH NO! He's ALSO NOT IN THE HALL OF FAME. And he's only been to four Super Bowls! NOOOOOOOooooooooooooooo

When you look at Elway's efficiency stats, he's lucky to crack the top 50. Not top 10, or top 5, TOP FIFTY. If you didn't know anything about football and started going through the lists for efficiency stats, you wouldn't even think Elway was good, let alone an all-time great.

Of course, if you look at the context of Elway's teams, the o-line, the running game, the receivers, the coaching style, then it makes sense why his numbers aren't great.

Hey, just like Kyle Orton!




Ah, so your argument for while Kyle Orton sucks this year is because he's:

1. Not as good as John Elway.
2. Not as good as Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, or Phillip Rivers, the three QBs who made the AFC Pro Bowl roster this year.

Also, I don't think anyone is arguing that he was anything special in Chicago. But THIS SEASON, he was quite good, and among the top quarterbacks in the league until his last two starts, when he was trying to play through an apparent injury.

Presumably in order for Orton to not suck, then, is for him to develop the ability to shoot lasers out of his eyes, and maybe save a baby from a burning building as part of the halftime show.

Sheesh.

Uh.. IF you could get off of Kyles jock for just a second here.... WHAT I said was:

A previous poster showed that Elways stats are not as good as Kyles 2010 stats are. Just his wins, comefrom behind wins, Pro Bowls, Playoff record, Super Bowl wins..... td, passing yards, heck..everything exxcept THIS years passing totals for Kyle.

BECAUSE you cannot figure that the NFL football has changed into a pass happy stat glorified league. Do you REALLY think Phillip Rivers is a better QB than say Joe Montana? Becasue Rivers qb rating is much higher than Joe's.

Please... step away from your "Fantasy football forums" and try to watch a real game once.

As with the rest of the 90 million people who do watch NFL games, you wills see that Kyle does indeed suck.

Kyle sucks at 3rd downs
He sucks at close games
He sucks at playing with a lead
He sucks at leading a team

BUT man ...can he get FF points!!!!! Because I know you love this.....Passing yards > wins. right?

This is the third (3rd) time Kyle has been benched... Another stat he leads the NFL for...ROTFLMAO

Juriga72
12-29-2010, 09:08 AM
Would fans here be more optimistic about playing the Chargers this Sunday, if Orton was starting? Or Tebow?

Tebow.... by far.

I am done seeing brown stuff run down Kyle's leg this year

zbeg
12-29-2010, 09:25 AM
Would fans here be more optimistic about playing the Chargers this Sunday, if Orton was starting? Or Tebow?

Assuming Orton's healthy, I think the Broncos have the best chance at winning this particular game with Orton behind center.

But since this is really a three game audition for Tebow and the season's a wash, I think it's much more important to have Tebow out there to evaluate what he can do. Not to mention the fan revolt that would occur if Orton was under center.

But if we needed this game to make the playoffs? Orton, for sure. The coaching staff wouldn't have to simplify the offense for Orton the way they have done for Tebow (the degree of simplification might have been a little high for Tebow, but it's unlikely that any rookie would be able to grasp the full offense, so some simplification would have to occur). Tebow looked pretty good against the Texans, but they're one of the worst passing defenses in NFL history. The Chargers will be a different deal entirely.

Also, given that I'd prefer to have the #2 overall pick rather than the #5 or #6, Tebow makes more sense on all fronts. We get to see more of what he can do, the Broncos are probably more likely to lose the game as a result (sorry Tim!), and we don't have to have a riot at Mile High.


Uh.. IF you could get off of Kyles jock for just a second here.... WHAT I said was:

A previous poster showed that Elways stats are not as good as Kyles 2010 stats are. Just his wins, comefrom behind wins, Pro Bowls, Playoff record, Super Bowl wins..... td, passing yards, heck..everything exxcept THIS years passing totals for Kyle.

BECAUSE you cannot figure that the NFL football has changed into a pass happy stat glorified league. Do you REALLY think Phillip Rivers is a better QB than say Joe Montana? Becasue Rivers qb rating is much higher than Joe's.



Which is, of course, why the whole point of what I was saying earlier is that you can't look at stats alone and have to look at the player in context. So, you know, the opposite of what you think I said.

"I think the sky is blue"
"LISTEN MORON, THE SKY IS BLUE YOU IDIOT"

Juriga72
12-29-2010, 09:35 AM
Assuming Orton's healthy, I think the Broncos have the best chance at winning this particular game with Orton behind center. Sure... just like against San Fran, Arizona, Oakland.... right?

Because Kyle did so well against them IN San Diego right? Now sitting TWO weeks he'll do better? WOW...But if we needed this game to make the playoffs? Orton, for sure. The coaching staff wouldn't have to simplify the offense for Orton the way they have done for Tebow (the degree of simplification might have been a little high for Tebow, but it's unlikely that any rookie would be able to grasp the full offense, so some simplification would have to occur). Tebow looked pretty good against the Texans, but they're one of the worst passing defenses in NFL history. The Chargers will be a different deal entirely.

Also, given that I'd prefer to have the #2 overall pick rather than the #5 or #6, Tebow makes more sense on all fronts. We get to see more of what he can do, the Broncos are probably more likely to lose the game as a result (sorry Tim!), and we don't have to have a riot at Mile High.



Which is, of course, why the whole point of what I was saying earlier is that you can't look at stats alone and have to look at the player in context. So, you know, the opposite of what you think I said.

"I think the sky is blue"
"LISTEN MORON, THE SKY IS BLUE YOU IDIOT"

LOOK MORON!!!!! Just like a Ortonite....

"Kyle sucks!!!!! I want him to start tho!!!!" ( WHAT you just said)

Of course "Its better to lose with Kyle than have a chance with Tim"..

we get it..... really we do.

"Kyle is our best chance to win..except when he plays"

zbeg
12-29-2010, 09:46 AM
LOOK MORON!!!!! Just like a Ortonite....

"Kyle sucks!!!!! I want him to start tho!!!!" ( WHAT you just said)

Of course "Its better to lose with Kyle than have a chance with Tim"..

we get it..... really we do.

"Kyle is our best chance to win..except when he plays"

Well, I'm not going to get into a prolonged effort to clarify every misinterpretation of every post I make. You think Orton sucks, good for you, congrats, etc. It's likely moot, since the Broncos will probably trade him in the offseason, since other teams are less likely to think he sucks and will be willing to offer up draft compensation for him.

gator_fan
12-29-2010, 10:45 AM
Assuming Orton's healthy, I think the Broncos have the best chance at winning this particular game with Orton behind center.


I'm surprised that you still really believe that. It tells me that one of us is sorely mislead in our conclusions. At this point, it's hard to be certain.

However, I think Sunday's game will go a ways to clarify which.

GEM
12-29-2010, 10:52 AM
Well, I'm not going to get into a prolonged effort to clarify every misinterpretation of every post I make. You think Orton sucks, good for you, congrats, etc. It's likely moot, since the Broncos will probably trade him in the offseason, since other teams are less likely to think he sucks and will be willing to offer up draft compensation for him.

If he were so good...the Broncos wouldn't be looking to trade him. :shrugs:

If he were so good...his big stats would have led to a Pro Bowl appearance, he isn't even an alternative...that means that in the eyes of fans, players and coaches, he's not even 5th best in the AFC. :shrugs:

JaxBroncoGirl
12-29-2010, 11:12 AM
Statistically, he was good. If you watch him, he's not good. He eats sacks, makes bad throws, doesn't ever turn up his game to try to win it or bury teams because he knows how to play one brand of football and one brand of football only with complete disregard to the score, and he's boring. If he thinks he's going to be here next year and start, he's high. You don't get benched in favor of Tebow 13 games in to the season, then start next year.

That is it. He is a good QB but you have great points. He could still be a Bronco next year and start. We do not know yet, it is just the things you post are so on point. I like him, does the team perform for him? Does he inspire? Does he will the team to win? Is he a leader?

G_Money
12-29-2010, 11:20 AM
Okay.

Orton was throwing the ball everywhere, all the time. He was third in attempts per game. He had the worst running attack in the league while he was QB. That made it easy to gameplan against us. Our formations were so predictable I could shout run or pass before the play and be right 9 times out of ten. You'd think that would drop a QB's efficiency and lead to more errors on his part.

He threw an INT every 55 attempts, good for 8th in the league, and the dropoff after 9 is pretty severe.

He was 11th in TD/INT rate.

Orton did what Orton does: manage a game, don't throw the big pick, move the ball well as long as he's not under pressure.

He's a fine game manager. He was not and never will be a dynamic game changer. If we had last year's defense we would have been a .500 team again easily. If we'd had last year's defensive coordinator with better talent, we'd have been competing for the AFC West title. The Dolphins are 3rd in yards and 9th in points, by the way. Maybe we should send Orton there and let him manage those games with defense that can control field position.

I'm not an Orton fan. I think he's not a leader, and that he folds in big situations when it's all on his shoulders.

But that doesn't mean he is at fault for the year, or that because he started off hot he somehow needs to be brought back to earth in order for Tebow to be viewed as the right choice for the job. He did what we asked him to do, and was about the best version of Orton he could be.

I wish I could say the same about the coaches and some of the other talent on the team.

~G

Superchop 7
12-29-2010, 11:41 AM
I will just tell you what I saw with my own eyes.

From last year to this year he improved quite a bit.

The o-line went to hell.

The defense is in shambles.

If "we" don't improve greatly in those areas.....Tebow is in trouble too.

I want Tebow because his upside (mobility in the pocket, running ability) is much higher than Kyles.

However, if a team was pretty solid, (not us), Orton is a middle of the pack "starting" QB.

Which (for some teams) would be an improvement.

Since we aren't going to fix everything overnight, I would rather develop Tebow.

arapaho2
12-29-2010, 12:43 PM
orton is history unless he stays as a back up...which is unlikely


ortons is orton...most of us knew this from the start...some thought he could be more...he couldnt

as long as the game is controllable....as long as he's in a comfort zone..orton can be a great qb

but shit goes down hill fast after that...he isnt a playmaker...he isnt that take charge..raa raa leader, he cant carry a team from behind and just find a fn way to win

sure he got alot of yards...but alot were cherrypicking blowout yards against soft zones...alot were more fantastic circus catch than great throw


this season isnt the fault of orton...we didnt lose because of orton...but we didnt win because of him either

he is what he is...and we are moving on

BroncoStud
12-29-2010, 01:05 PM
Assuming Orton's healthy, I think the Broncos have the best chance at winning this particular game with Orton behind center.

But since this is really a three game audition for Tebow and the season's a wash, I think it's much more important to have Tebow out there to evaluate what he can do. Not to mention the fan revolt that would occur if Orton was under center.

But if we needed this game to make the playoffs? Orton, for sure. The coaching staff wouldn't have to simplify the offense for Orton the way they have done for Tebow (the degree of simplification might have been a little high for Tebow, but it's unlikely that any rookie would be able to grasp the full offense, so some simplification would have to occur). Tebow looked pretty good against the Texans, but they're one of the worst passing defenses in NFL history. The Chargers will be a different deal entirely.

Also, given that I'd prefer to have the #2 overall pick rather than the #5 or #6, Tebow makes more sense on all fronts. We get to see more of what he can do, the Broncos are probably more likely to lose the game as a result (sorry Tim!), and we don't have to have a riot at Mile High.



Which is, of course, why the whole point of what I was saying earlier is that you can't look at stats alone and have to look at the player in context. So, you know, the opposite of what you think I said.

"I think the sky is blue"
"LISTEN MORON, THE SKY IS BLUE YOU IDIOT"

It's amazing that people STILL think Orton gives any team a chance to win...

Tebow running QB draws all day long gives the Broncos a better chance to beat the Dolts than Orton running a full playbook does.

TXBRONC
12-29-2010, 01:13 PM
Let's see what the numbers say...


Completion Percentage: 58.8% (25th in NFL)

Josh Freeman, Sam Bradford, Jon Kitna, David Garrard, Matt Cassel, Shaun Hill (LoL), and the amazing Chad Henne ALL finished better than Kyle.


QB Rating: 87.5 (18th in NFL)

Josh Freeman, Matt Cassel, Jon Kitna, and David Garrard ALL finished better than Kyle.


Touchdowns: 20 (14th in NFL)

David Garrard, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Carson Palmer, and Matt Cassel ALL finished better than Kyle.


Average Yards Per Completion: 7.3 (12th in NFL)

Jason Campbell, David Garrard, and Jon Kitna ALL finished better than Kyle.


Interceptions: 9 (11th in NFL)

Not too bad, there are a lot of guys between 8-12 interceptions. Eli has the most with 20.


Yards: 3,653 (5th in NFL)

Clearly his best stat and pretty much the only GOOD stat he has. This is what Orton supporters hang their hats on. Orton averages 38.3 passing attempts per game.


3rd down conversions: 31% (30th in NFL)

Only the Redskins and Cardinals are worse, and both of their starting QBs are benched and probably done on those teams.


Points Per Game: 20.9 (20th in NFL)

Hey, at least we aren't Carolina (13.1 Points Per Game)...



So I keep hearing that Mr. Orton had a great season, his personal statistics were solid, he was the bright spot in the lineup, etc, etc.

The numbers don't lie, do they?

Some of the would probably be hire if he and continued to play. The points per game and 3rd down percentage probably would have gotten better because those numbers were bad all season long. But missing all but one game of the last quarter of season is going skew the stats.

TXBRONC
12-29-2010, 01:20 PM
Why get on Orton's jock? I think he is a legit top 10 QB in the league on a decent team. He still has a better winning percentage than Tebow or Cutler for his career, and I'd venture to say the Bears of the past were at least as bad as the Broncos. All those numbers are just a snapshot in his career. The guy just turned 28, he could have a decade in the league ahead of him.

No he's not considered a legitimate top ten quarterback. He ranks somewhere between 15 and 20. Which he's adequate but he also the kind of starter that you're looking to replace.


Broncos Mailbag: Tebow seizing starting job
Tod from Arizona observes rookie QB begin to quiet doubters, competition
By Mike Klis
The Denver Post
Posted: 12/28/2010 01:00:00 AM MST


Kyle Orton has worked his backside off to be the starter and has proven he can play (very pleasant surprise in a dismal season). Why doesn't he get more respect? Even the press seems to rag on him, but he takes it and just keeps working harder. This work ethic seems to me something that the Broncos could use more of right now.
-- Deborah, Ventura, Calif.

Deborah - I mean this as a compliment when I say Orton may be about to mirror the career of Jon Kitna. The Cowboys are Kitna's fifth team in 14 seasons. Orton in a few months could well move to his third team in what will be his seventh season.

Kitna has five seasons of more than 3,000 passing yards, including two that surpassed 4,000. Orton just had back-to-back seasons of 3,600-plus yards.

Both are considered top 15 to 20 quarterbacks, which makes them better than backups, but not quite good enough to prevent a team from trying to find better. Kitna has made way for Matt Hasselbeck in Seattle, Carson Palmer in Cincinnati and Matthew Stafford in Detroit before agreeing to become a 37-year-old backup to Tony Romo in Dallas last year.

Orton has been replaced by Rex Grossman and then Jay Cutler in Chicago, and it appears Tebow will push him aside in Denver. It's not an ideal situation for Orton, but don't feel too sorry for him, Deborah. There's a good chance Orton will get $8.4 million to be a starting quarterback next year, if not in Denver.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncosmailbag/ci_16953021

chazoe60
12-29-2010, 01:34 PM
We're still debating Orton vs. Tebow? Really? Just watch the games with your eyes and it is plain to see that Tebow is the future and Orton is the past. Orton is uninspiring, inaccurate, infinitely sackable (I swear my 6 yr old could bring Orton down), and most of all boring.

Has anyone in history ever uttered these words? "Thank God we have Orton as our QB"

Most fans say this: "when will we upgrade our QB? This Orton fella is just so blah."

Bye bye Orton, it's Ben fun.....except it really hasn't been.

Poet
12-29-2010, 01:55 PM
Elway- 5 Super Bowls
14-7 playoff record
9 Pro Bowls
47- 4th quarter comebacks
Pro Football Hall of Fame-2004

Yeah... I'd say numbers do LIE a heck of alot too

Here are Kyle's numbers....

0- plays during Bears Super Bowl season Kyle played
0-Playoff games Kyle started
0-Pro Bowls
3- Times benched for OTHER quarterback on team
1,000,000- Excuses why "Kyle was hurt when he played, he's a gamer"


Let go slowly again- NO ONE outside of here thought Kyle was good enough for the Pro Bowl...NO ONE. The voting was during Kyle's "Dream season".. and he didnt make it

89 MILLION people voted and guess what..... "Kyle still sucks" What will the "Next Kyle Orton excuse" be?
So to prove how bad he is you compare him to a first ballot hall of famer?

Every wideout ever sucks compared to Jerry Rice, therefore all other WR's are bad. :laugh:

Ravage!!!
12-29-2010, 02:58 PM
So to prove how bad he is you compare him to a first ballot hall of famer?

Every wideout ever sucks compared to Jerry Rice, therefore all other WR's are bad. :laugh:

No.. saying that stats don't matter.

Elway's fantasy stats aren't very good. His QB rating isn't one you would compare to the QBs of today. So simply judging a QB based on some meaningless (and I think absolutely absurd) QB rating stat, or ypc stat.. or any fantasy number stat tht is used today is how people are trying to judge QBs, doesn't really hold up to the fact that some of the best QBs in NFL history don't look "Good" if you put their "fantasy numbers" side-by-side to some of the NFL QBs of today.... even if that QB is Orton.

BroncoStud
12-29-2010, 05:59 PM
No.. saying that stats don't matter.

Elway's fantasy stats aren't very good. His QB rating isn't one you would compare to the QBs of today. So simply judging a QB based on some meaningless (and I think absolutely absurd) QB rating stat, or ypc stat.. or any fantasy number stat tht is used today is how people are trying to judge QBs, doesn't really hold up to the fact that some of the best QBs in NFL history don't look "Good" if you put their "fantasy numbers" side-by-side to some of the NFL QBs of today.... even if that QB is Orton.

Elway didn't post good fantasy stats until we hired Wade as HC and he opened up the playbook. His stats really got solid with Shanahan's system.

Joe Montana might not be a Hall of Famer if he had to run the Dan Reeves convservative system that rarely spreads the field. Elway was amazing because he was able to overcome Dan Reeves and will the Broncos to 3 Super Bowls as a young QB.

Juriga72
12-29-2010, 06:16 PM
So to prove how bad he is you compare him to a first ballot hall of famer?

Every wideout ever sucks compared to Jerry Rice, therefore all other WR's are bad. :laugh:

Nope not at all...

Saying Kyle has had a better year than Elway ever has is what Ortonites are saying.... "except for all those bad games...he's REALLY good"

The very first time Orton plays in a playoff game will be his first.