POST: Broncos in position to draft elite player in first two picks Read more: Broncos in position to draft elite player in first two picks

[Cugel]

This article from the Post states what we've all been saying:

If the season ended today, the Broncos would have the No. 2 draft pick. Hello, Da'Quan Bowers! (http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16916377?source=rsssimplepiebroncos)

"He's the best defensive player by far on the board. By far," Mel Kiper Jr., ESPN's draft guru, said of Clemson's star pass rusher. "He and (Stanford quarterback) Andrew Luck are the stick-out guys in this draft. You can debate three, four and five. You can't debate one and two. Luck is the best offensive player, and everybody's going to have Bowers as the best defensive player."

Well, then.

The Broncos need to finish the deal to finish No. 2 and get Bowers. At 3-11, they are tied with the Cincinnati Bengals for the NFL's second-worst record, one game behind the Carolina Panthers (2-12).

The Broncos' position at No. 2 is further bolstered by the fact that opponents' strength of schedule breaks any ties. In the draft, it's the team with the weakest schedule that gains the higher draft pick. . . . The Broncos, by virtue of their combined opponents' record of 103-93, hold the tiebreaker over Carolina (106-90) and Cincinnati (113-83). . . .

Neither Carolina nor Cincinnati can weaken their opponents' schedule enough to catch the Broncos in these final two games.

But, first the Broncos have to lose out! Unfortunately, they're playing at home against the woeful Texans.

The question is: assuming that the Broncos lose out and finish with the #2 pick, will the Broncos GM & new coach think that Bowers can move to LOLB in a 3-4 (he'd need to revamp his coverage skills), or will they keep the 3-4, in which case they might pass on Bowers?

If Kiper and other draft experts are right and Bowers really IS an immediate IMPACT player then maybe they find some way to switch to a 4-3. Right now, outside Dumervil and Champ Bailey (who is likely gone) there are ZERO impact players on the defense, and NONE on offense (unless Tebow becomes one next season).

If you have the chance to draft a Mario Williams type player and then sit back and watch him become an All-Pro DE as Williams has done, then by God you take it!

And worry about the scheme later. Perhaps he can make the switch to 3-4 just the way Dumervil did, when he'd never played in such a defense in his life.

Perhaps, the Broncos use the base 3-4 but switch to a 4-3 on certain plays. They tried that a bit during the last 2 seasons but the lack of talent on defense made it pretty much irrelevant what formation they were in.

If you have scrubs and re-treads manning the defense, then you can be in the right formation, but the offense still makes big plays on you. That happened to Denver all season!

I say, LOSE OUT, take Bowers as the BEST DEFENSIVE PLAYER available -- then worry about what formation you are going to use later!

There doesn't seem to be an equally good NT in the draft. Last year there was Suh, just waiting at the #2 spot. But, there's nobody like that out there this year.

That leaves DE as the one obvious choice. I don't care how good a CB is, #2 is simply too high to take one! We've seen from having Champ Bailey all these years that the Best CB in football is helpless if DL can't rush the passer and he has all day to throw! :coffee:

[BroncoStud]

Once again, we aren't going to beat the Texans (who will drop 40 on us) or the Chargers (who will drop 40 on us)...

Does anyone really think STUDS, McCoy, and Wink can put together a gameplan that will beat anyone?

[Juriga72]

Once again, we aren't going to beat the Texans (who will drop 40 on us) or the Chargers (who will drop 40 on us)...

Does anyone really think STUDS, McCoy, and Wink can put together a gameplan that will beat anyone?

This might be the best thing that can happen to us..... WOOT!!!!! We're #2!!!

[Northman]

I still want Fairly. We have to be able to stop the run.

[Traveler]

Once again, we aren't going to beat the Texans (who will drop 40 on us) or the Chargers (who will drop 40 on us)...

I'm guessing the Foster is going to have a record day against our *efense.

[silkamilkamonico]

F--k switching back to the 4-3 just because of one elite defensive prospect. Draft Luck if he is available, or get Fairley.

[jhildebrand]

This town is still drunk on the legacy of John Elway. The fact is this team is more than a QB away. Drafting Luck or Newton would all but force this team to play them right away and the expectation would be for them to be the "savior" for this franchise. That is too much pressure to put on them! They would have a better chance of being more like David Carr than Matt Ryan. I just think this team has too many holes to worry about a #1 or #2 overall QB right now.

So I went through some numbers last night because of all the talk around town about taking Luck or even Cam Newton.

San Diego going into the 04 draft (Eli/Rivers) was much like Denver is now. The previous season they were 4-12, 8-8. In fact one could argue they were worse because the two seasons prior to the 8-8 record saw a 1-15 team. In 04 8 of 11 of their picks were front 7 guys! Hardwick and Olivea a rookie C and G (sound familiar) went on to be starters as rookies. Going back to the 04 draft, 27 of 53 total picks were used on the front 7! 51%

Furthermore, SD had a QB in Brees who had has many questions surrounding him as Tebow does. I know it doesn't seem like it now because he won a SB but many questioned Brees. The important thing to note is SD drafted him and played him while they built the team. They didn't draft or PLAY Rivers until the front 7 was established and playing well.

Baltimore-Going back to 2005 21 of 47 total picks have gone to front 7 guys 45%. Out of 21 total picks in the first three rounds, 13 of them were front 7 65%! Joe Flacco didn't come until they were halfway through that.

25 of 51 total picks on the front 7! Out of 24 picks in the first 4 rounds 14 on front 7! Matt Ryan wasn't drafted until 2008-after drafting front 7 early and often for 3 years!

St Louis-40% of their picks going back to 2005 have been front 7 including 1st and 2nd round tackles-prior to drafting Bradford.

Denver--going back to 2005, 19 of 45 total picks on front 7. Not bad. However, the team didn't hold on to 8 of those players-some for even one season! 11 out of 45 when it is all said and done!

This team needs front 7 guys. The good news is McD started with the O line last year. I hope this team spends the top half of their draft, at a minimum, on defensive front 7.

I am not saying this team doesn't or wont need a QB. I am just saying Tebow and his mechanics don't really matter right now. He should be good enough as a QB for this team to focs builiding in other places a la SD and Brees. Tebow will either do ok and have some trade value or he wont. Even if he doesn't, it would be far better off failing with a QB who had so many questions coming into the NFL about his game than drafting a "can't miss" prospect like LUCK or NEWTON and RUINING them!

The blueprint is there-follow it! SD has been winning the division since 2005.

Stay put or trade down, I don't care! Just draft front 7!!!!

[NightTrainLayne]

This town is still drunk on the legacy of John Elway. The fact is this team is more than a QB away. Drafting Luck or Newton would all but force this team to play them right away and the expectation would be for them to be the "savior" for this franchise. That is too much pressure to put on them! They would have a better chance of being more like David Carr than Matt Ryan. I just think this team has too many holes to worry about a #1 or #2 overall QB right now.

So I went through some numbers last night because of all the talk around town about taking Luck or even Cam Newton.

San Diego going into the 04 draft (Eli/Rivers) was much like Denver is now. The previous season they were 4-12, 8-8. In fact one could argue they were worse because the two seasons prior to the 8-8 record saw a 1-15 team. In 04 8 of 11 of their picks were front 7 guys! Hardwick and Olivea a rookie C and G (sound familiar) went on to be starters as rookies. Going back to the 04 draft, 27 of 53 total picks were used on the front 7! 51%

Furthermore, SD had a QB in Brees who had has many questions surrounding him as Tebow does. I know it doesn't seem like it now because he won a SB but many questioned Brees. The important thing to note is SD drafted him and played him while they built the team. They didn't draft or PLAY Rivers until the front 7 was established and playing well.

Baltimore-Going back to 2005 21 of 47 total picks have gone to front 7 guys 45%. Out of 21 total picks in the first three rounds, 13 of them were front 7 65%! Joe Flacco didn't come until they were halfway through that.

25 of 51 total picks on the front 7! Out of 24 picks in the first 4 rounds 14 on front 7! Matt Ryan wasn't drafted until 2008-after drafting front 7 early and often for 3 years!

St Louis-40% of their picks going back to 2005 have been front 7 including 1st and 2nd round tackles-prior to drafting Bradford.

Denver--going back to 2005, 19 of 45 total picks on front 7. Not bad. However, the team didn't hold on to 8 of those players-some for even one season! 11 out of 45 when it is all said and done!

This team needs front 7 guys. The good news is McD started with the O line last year. I hope this team spends the top half of their draft, at a minimum, on defensive front 7.

I am not saying this team doesn't or wont need a QB. I am just saying Tebow and his mechanics don't really matter right now. He should be good enough as a QB for this team to focs builiding in other places a la SD and Brees. Tebow will either do ok and have some trade value or he wont. Even if he doesn't, it would be far better off failing with a QB who had so many questions coming into the NFL about his game than drafting a "can't miss" prospect like LUCK or NEWTON and RUINING them!

The blueprint is there-follow it! SD has been winning the division since 2005.

Stay put or trade down, I don't care! Just draft front 7!!!!

One of the best BroncosTalk posts I've read in months.

[Northman]

I dont care how good everyone THINKS that Luck will be we do not need a Qb right now without knowing what we have in Tebow. You just dont wrap up that much money in two 1st round QB's. And as Jhilde has pointed out we need to concentrate on the defensive line more than any other position right now.

[nevcraw]

If Luck is there you take him. you then trade him for more picks and player(s) who can come in build the defense. His aftermarket value will be higher than just trading the pick or picking BDPA. and then pray to Tebow he pans out..

[SOCALORADO.]

I still want Fairly. We have to be able to stop the run.

I think Fairley will be there at the bottom of the top 10 picks. If DEN could somehow trade down, and aquire a 2nd in the process, it would go along way to getting more quality players ala NE.

DEN trades #2 pick to MIN for #41(2nd),#105(4th)
1st
#8 DE Nick Fairley AUB
#34 DE JJWatt WISC
#41 RB Mickel LeShoure ILLINI
#48 NT Sione Fua STAN
#105 CB Shareece Wright USC


There. Completely revamped the D, and even had a bonus pick for the offense.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

It all depends who we decide to bring in at DC. If he's a 3-4 guy we take Fairley, if he's a 4-3 guy we take Bowers. Frankly, I don't give a shit what defensive front we decide to run because it's obvious over the past 10 years WE SUCK AT BOTH!!! Keeping the 3-4 around without the people to properly run it (personnel and coaching) is just as bad as running the man/power blocking scheme without the right O-line or RB. Obviously, IT DON'T WORK! Shit, some of our best games this year defensively vs the run were played when we switched back to the 4-3 due to injuries to Ayers.

I don't think people would really care if we ran a 4-3 if it was like the Giants or Bears 4-3 (effective) or 3-4 if it was like the Sparklers or Jets 3-4 (effective). Just run a damned defense that works! Just like I don't give a rats ass about the name on the back of the jersey as long as he produces, or the name on the coach's polo... just produce! Why do we HAVE to run a 3-4? Is it better? The Colts, Saints, Ravens, Bucs, and Giants (all Superbowl teams of the last decade) say no. Why do we have to run the 4-3? Is it better? The Patriots and Steelers say no. See what I mean? why don't we run WHAT WORKS FOR US instead of WHAT'S POPULAR????

I'll be happy just to take a D-lineman with our first round pick... and second, and third, etc. Who gives a shit about scheme, anyway as long as it WORKS!? :defense::defense:

[Nomad]

The blueprint is there-follow it! SD has been winning the division since 2005.

!!

Good take jhil!! Ron Rivera knows the blueprint of the SD Chargers!!

[jhildebrand]

Good take jhil!! Ron Rivera knows the blueprint of the SD Chargers!!

I like Rivera but am scared that he has never been a coach before.

Give me Marty who will come on the cheap, knows the AFCW, can bring a big name DC in like Wade who is the league expert on the 3-4, and most importantly has coached and demonstrated time and again that he can rebuild a team!

He is the architect of the Chargers blueprint and is just sitting there. Why not? :confused:

Maybe more importantly, he has shown that he can get proven front 7 guys in the later rounds!

[silkamilkamonico]

Marty would be good to get this organization on the right track, but then Bowlen would need to hire someone who could win in the playoffs.

[Dirk]

I like Rivera but am scared that he has never been a coach before.

Give me Marty who will come on the cheap, knows the AFCW, can bring a big name DC in like Wade who is the league expert on the 3-4, and most importantly has coached and demonstrated time and again that he can rebuild a team!

He is the architect of the Chargers blueprint and is just sitting there. Why not? :confused:

Maybe more importantly, he has shown that he can get proven front 7 guys in the later rounds!

One reason
Marty Ball - A team that does well in the regular season but falls short every time in the post season.

Marty would be good as a personnel guy but as a HC I would pass.

[jhildebrand]

One reason
Marty Ball - A team that does well in the regular season but falls short every time in the post season.

Marty would be good as a personnel guy but as a HC I would pass.

Not hiring Marty based solely on the "he can't win in the playoffs" is a mistake in my opinion. So many here clamor for Cowher. Cowher couldn't win the big one either! Not to mention Cowher is a Marty disciple :lol:

Coughlin couldn't win the big one.

I think it is only a matter of time before Marty wins in the playoffs and wins big. It isn't his fault the idiot DB in SD fumbled the INT against NE instead of getting down. He is one of the winningest coaches of all time.

Like Silk mentioned, at the worst, keep him around long enough to rebuild and if he proves once again that he cannot win in the PO's then find a replacement.

I would much rather know we have someone at the helm that has rebuilt time and again and have confidence than having a shot in the dark and prayer.

[SOCALORADO.]

Not hiring Marty based solely on the "he can't win in the playoffs" is a mistake in my opinion. So many here clamor for Cowher. Cowher couldn't win the big one either! Not to mention Cowher is a Marty disciple :lol:

Coughlin couldn't win the big one.

I think it is only a matter of time before Marty wins in the playoffs and wins big. It isn't his fault the idiot DB in SD fumbled the INT against NE instead of getting down. He is one of the winningest coaches of all time.

Like Silk mentioned, at the worst, keep him around long enough to rebuild and if he proves once again that he cannot win in the PO's then find a replacement.

I would much rather know we have someone at the helm that has rebuilt time and again and have confidence than having a shot in the dark and prayer.

:beer:

[Cugel]

This town is still drunk on the legacy of John Elway. The fact is this team is more than a QB away. Drafting Luck or Newton would all but force this team to play them right away and the expectation would be for them to be the "savior" for this franchise. That is too much pressure to put on them! They would have a better chance of being more like David Carr than Matt Ryan. I just think this team has too many holes to worry about a #1 or #2 overall QB right now.

There's no right or wrong answer right now. It's all just opinion. Nothing wrong here. But, I would point out that Elway was thrown in his rookie season when he wasn't ready (by his own admission). It didn't hurt him any!


So I went through some numbers last night because of all the talk around town about taking Luck or even Cam Newton.

San Diego going into the 04 draft (Eli/Rivers) was much like Denver is now. The previous season they were 4-12, 8-8. In fact one could argue they were worse because the two seasons prior to the 8-8 record saw a 1-15 team. In 04 8 of 11 of their picks were front 7 guys! Hardwick and Olivea a rookie C and G (sound familiar) went on to be starters as rookies. Going back to the 04 draft, 27 of 53 total picks were used on the front 7! 51%

Drafting DL IS the way to go -- unless we get the chance for Luck (unlikely). If the choice is Tebow or Newton, then keep Tebow and see what he can do!


Furthermore, SD had a QB in Brees who had has many questions surrounding him as Tebow does. I know it doesn't seem like it now because he won a SB but many questioned Brees. The important thing to note is SD drafted him and played him while they built the team. They didn't draft or PLAY Rivers until the front 7 was established and playing well.

When they drafted Rivers, Brees had been to the Pro-bowl before, but he was seriously injured and there were questions about his durability.

There was a bitter front office dispute between Coach Marty Shottenheimer (who wanted to keep Brees and use the pick on another player), and Smith the GM who wanted to trade Brees and draft a QB with the top overall pick. Smith won. Marty left and they got a new coach in Norv Turner.

Adding complication, Eli Manning, the top overall QB prospect publicly refused to play in SD and said he'd hold out if drafted by the Chargers. There were NO negotiations between him and the Chargers, but they drafted him anyway -- and then traded him to the Giants in return for a #1 draft pick (which turned out to be #12 next season IIRC).

So, the situation in Denver with Tebow is MUCH different because Brees had previously PROVEN himself as a Pro-bowl QB. Tebow is a complete unknown, and is very raw by every estimation.


Baltimore-Going back to 2005 21 of 47 total picks have gone to front 7 guys 45%. Out of 21 total picks in the first three rounds, 13 of them were front 7 65%! Joe Flacco didn't come until they were halfway through that.

That certainly wasn't by DESIGN! Billick kept insisting that Kyle Boller was "my QB of the future." He kept hoping that Boller would put it together and it cost him his job! The Ravens had the best defense in the NFL for years but only managed to win 1 championship -- the year they had the best defense in NFL History (2000).


25 of 51 total picks on the front 7! Out of 24 picks in the first 4 rounds 14 on front 7! Matt Ryan wasn't drafted until 2008-after drafting front 7 early and often for 3 years!

After they gave up on Boller ever being any good and got rid of Billick!


St Louis-40% of their picks going back to 2005 have been front 7 including 1st and 2nd round tackles-prior to drafting Bradford.

I wouldn't quote the Rams as an example of success! They utterly SUCKED from the time Kurt Warner left until they got Bradford. Now they've risen to mediocre and they are poised to rise higher -- because they finally have a Franchise QB!


I am not saying this team doesn't or wont need a QB. I am just saying Tebow and his mechanics don't really matter right now. He should be good enough as a QB for this team to focus builiding in other places a la SD and Brees. Tebow will either do ok and have some trade value or he wont. Even if he doesn't, it would be far better off failing with a QB who had so many questions coming into the NFL about his game than drafting a "can't miss" prospect like LUCK or NEWTON and RUINING them!

Putting them into a tough situation shouldering the burden of leading a losing franchise isn't necessarily "ruining" them -- any more than it "ruined" Elway or Peyton Manning, both of whom went through very tough rookie seasons for very BAD teams. :coffee:

That's what NORMALLY happens to top 5 QBs! They go to Really BAD teams where they are expected to save the franchise. Normally, they can't do it because the rest of the team sucks. Bad. Carson Palmer, Matt Ryan, Mark Sanchez, Michael Vick, Eli Manning, etc., etc. they were all expected to come in and "save the franchise." Sometimes they can't do it.

That's life in the NFL baby! Virtually EVERY single top QB (outside perhaps Ben Roethlisberger) had to endure being thrown into a bad situation to start out. Their teams sucked. The fans expected miracles. Goes with the territory of life as a top draft pick in the NFL because the team is NOT going to pay them $50 million guaranteed and let them sit on the bench all year! It might be better for their development, but economic reality and fan expectations in the NFL forbid it! :coffee:

[Northman]

Not hiring Marty based solely on the "he can't win in the playoffs" is a mistake in my opinion. So many here clamor for Cowher. Cowher couldn't win the big one either! Not to mention Cowher is a Marty disciple :lol:

Coughlin couldn't win the big one.

I think it is only a matter of time before Marty wins in the playoffs and wins big. It isn't his fault the idiot DB in SD fumbled the INT against NE instead of getting down. He is one of the winningest coaches of all time.

Like Silk mentioned, at the worst, keep him around long enough to rebuild and if he proves once again that he cannot win in the PO's then find a replacement.

I would much rather know we have someone at the helm that has rebuilt time and again and have confidence than having a shot in the dark and prayer.

Meh, not really the same in my opinion. Marty always got ultra conservative come playoff time thats why you see a moment between Elway and Shanahan in the playoff game where John tells Mike to just punt the ball and beat him at his own game. Cowher was never really conservative when it came to the playoffs only that he got beat by better teams. Cowher at least made it too two SB's while Marty is still wishing he had just made one.

[red98]

Not hiring Marty based solely on the "he can't win in the playoffs" is a mistake in my opinion. So many here clamor for Cowher. Cowher couldn't win the big one either! Not to mention Cowher is a Marty disciple :lol:

Coughlin couldn't win the big one.

I think it is only a matter of time before Marty wins in the playoffs and wins big. It isn't his fault the idiot DB in SD fumbled the INT against NE instead of getting down. He is one of the winningest coaches of all time.

Like Silk mentioned, at the worst, keep him around long enough to rebuild and if he proves once again that he cannot win in the PO's then find a replacement.

I would much rather know we have someone at the helm that has rebuilt time and again and have confidence than having a shot in the dark and prayer.

In 21 years Marty is 5-18 in the playoffs with his last win in 1993.

In 15 years Cowher is 12-9 in the playoffs with 1 SB win and 2 appearances.

There is no comparison.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Say no to martyball!

He might make a good GM though he would be sure to hire his son and brother and sundry other relatives.

[jhildebrand]

There's no right or wrong answer right now. It's all just opinion. Nothing wrong here. But, I would point out that Elway was thrown in his rookie season when he wasn't ready (by his own admission). It didn't hurt him any!

The problem is the team Elway stepped into, aside from being a completely different era and game, didn't have near the holes this team does! Elway had a team that was the 9th ranked scoring D the year he stepped in. This team is no where near that. Not only can the team not protect the QB, the D can't keep him off the field long enough either. At some point you are looking to get your shiny new QB hurt.



When they drafted Rivers, Brees had been to the Pro-bowl before, but he was seriously injured and there were questions about his durability.

Brees had questions about him being successful in this league long before he was hurt. He came from a powerful Tiller offense at Purdue which led many people to question. There was also a question at times about his arm strength and his height! The fact is SD took one QB to build around and he wasn't in the first round!



There was a bitter front office dispute between Coach Marty Shottenheimer (who wanted to keep Brees and use the pick on another player), and Smith the GM who wanted to trade Brees and draft a QB with the top overall pick. Smith won. Marty left and they got a new coach in Norv Turner.

Marty wanted to bring in his brother and AJ didn't want any part of it. The balance of power would have favored Schott. That had more to do with it than player personnel. Marty never had much say in SD about the draft. Besides, that only supports my point in keeping and dealing with Tebow for now. If he pans out then you have a #1 pick you haven't wasted on another QB. If he doesn't pan out, at least you have a more solid team in place and increase a new qb's i.e. Luck chances of success.



So, the situation in Denver with Tebow is MUCH different because Brees had previously PROVEN himself as a Pro-bowl QB. Tebow is a complete unknown, and is very raw by every estimation.

Brees didn't start out as a ProBowler. Like I said before and above, MANY questioned him from height, offense in college, and arm strength.



That certainly wasn't by DESIGN! Billick kept insisting that Kyle Boller was "my QB of the future." He kept hoping that Boller would put it together and it cost him his job! The Ravens had the best defense in the NFL for years but only managed to win 1 championship -- the year they had the best defense in NFL History (2000).



After they gave up on Boller ever being any good and got rid of Billick!



I wouldn't quote the Rams as an example of success! They utterly SUCKED from the time Kurt Warner left until they got Bradford. Now they've risen to mediocre and they are poised to rise higher -- because they finally have a Franchise QB!

I am not saying this team doesn't or wont need a QB. I am just saying Tebow and his mechanics don't really matter right now. He should be good enough as a QB for this team to focus builiding in other places a la SD and Brees. Tebow will either do ok and have some trade value or he wont. Even if he doesn't, it would be far better off failing with a QB who had so many questions coming into the NFL about his game than drafting a "can't miss" prospect like LUCK or NEWTON and RUINING them!

Putting them into a tough situation shouldering the burden of leading a losing franchise isn't necessarily "ruining" them -- any more than it "ruined" Elway or Peyton Manning, both of whom went through very tough rookie seasons for very BAD teams. :coffee:

That's what NORMALLY happens to top 5 QBs! They go to Really BAD teams where they are expected to save the franchise. Normally, they can't do it because the rest of the team sucks. Bad. Carson Palmer, Matt Ryan, Mark Sanchez, Michael Vick, Eli Manning, etc., etc. they were all expected to come in and "save the franchise." Sometimes they can't do it.

That's life in the NFL baby! Virtually EVERY single top QB (outside perhaps Ben Roethlisberger) had to endure being thrown into a bad situation to start out. Their teams sucked. The fans expected miracles. Goes with the territory of life as a top draft pick in the NFL because the team is NOT going to pay them $50 million guaranteed and let them sit on the bench all year! It might be better for their development, but economic reality and fan expectations in the NFL forbid it! :coffee:

Matt Ryan wasn't thrown into a shitty team! They had plenty of D line studs. St Louis has been drafting T's and DE's from Long to Carriker. Flacco came into a team that has Oher and Ngata who preceeded him.

My point still remains, if you want to build for today's NFL and ENSURE LONG TERM SUCCESS despite whom the coach may be, you draft front 7 especially on the lines. The fact that those teams have done that, changed coaches, inserted rookie QB's in the middle only supports my point.

[Juriga72]

Marty is proven to be a loser at crunch time...

Cleveland- 2-4 and TWO one and done's...( Of course we know who beat them then...)

KC- 3-7 FIVE one and done's

Washington -0-0

San Diego- 0-2 TWO one and done's...

ONE year won two games, 9 times one and done

thats not "Quality playoff coaching"

[Dirk]

Not hiring Marty based solely on the "he can't win in the playoffs" is a mistake in my opinion. So many here clamor for Cowher. Cowher couldn't win the big one either! Not to mention Cowher is a Marty disciple :lol:

Coughlin couldn't win the big one.

I think it is only a matter of time before Marty wins in the playoffs and wins big. It isn't his fault the idiot DB in SD fumbled the INT against NE instead of getting down. He is one of the winningest coaches of all time.

Like Silk mentioned, at the worst, keep him around long enough to rebuild and if he proves once again that he cannot win in the PO's then find a replacement.

I would much rather know we have someone at the helm that has rebuilt time and again and have confidence than having a shot in the dark and prayer.

Maybe Marty is cursed. :noidea:

[Nomad]

I don't know what kind of HC Rivera would be either, but he seems like a good unknown!

But I know I'll have to get use to seeing Kubiak on the sidelines!

[jhildebrand]

In 15 years Cowher is 12-9 in the playoffs with 1 SB win and 2 appearances.

There is no comparison. .

The problem there, which I have already pointed out, is Cowher had a patient owner in the Rooney's. They had considered firing him at almost the same point Marty had been fired in previous stops.

Furthermore, what did Cowher's team do after their SB win? A win that many feel was given to them by bad make that HORRIBLE officiating!!!! He went 8-8. Many would cite their (steelers) stability at DC and Dick LeBeau with their success than Cowher.

Marty has rebuilt time and again.

Finally, Cowher learned everything from marty.

This isn't about Marty. It was simply a passing suggestion I had made. This is more about how this team is sooooo not ready for a "SAVIOR" QB with all the holes this team has!

Flacco wasn't thrown into a bad team. They had an O and D line as I mentioned. Ryan wasn't. Bradford wasn't.

You know who was? Alex Smith and David Carr. Alex Smith was a sure fire cant' miss guy and he has been in and out as the starter and never really done squat!

[jhildebrand]

Maybe Marty is cursed. :noidea:

Maybe. But his rebuilding isn't. Norval Turner, for God's sakes, has won this division 5 years running on Marty's work. :mad:

I don't believe Norv is too good a HC. He is a great OC but not a good coach!

[Dirk]

Maybe. But his rebuilding isn't. Norval Turner, for God's sakes, has won this division 5 years running on Marty's work. :mad:

I don't believe Norv is too good a HC. He is a great OC but not a good coach!

I will definately give you that! :lol:

[red98]

The problem there, which I have already pointed out, is Cowher had a patient owner in the Rooney's. They had considered firing him at almost the same point Marty had been fired in previous stops.

Furthermore, what did Cowher's team do after their SB win? A win that many feel was given to them by bad make that HORRIBLE officiating!!!! He went 8-8. Many would cite their (steelers) stability at DC and Dick LeBeau with their success than Cowher.

Marty has rebuilt time and again.

Finally, Cowher learned everything from marty.

This isn't about Marty. It was simply a passing suggestion I had made. This is more about how this team is sooooo not ready for a "SAVIOR" QB with all the holes this team has!

Flacco wasn't thrown into a bad team. They had an O and D line as I mentioned. Ryan wasn't. Bradford wasn't.

You know who was? Alex Smith and David Carr. Alex Smith was a sure fire cant' miss guy and he has been in and out as the starter and never really done squat!

21 years and 3 teams is plenty of patience. I don't want Cowher either, there is just no comparing the two.

Finally, Belichek, Payton and Coughlin learned everything from Parcells. I still don't want Parcells.


I was responding to your passing suggestion! PASS ON MARTYBALL!

As to your main point we don't have enough information on our new coach,GM etc. to decide if we should be like SD, NYG and PIT and use our rare top of the round draft pick on a QB or not.

As it stands right now, I'm with you, we have Tebow and desperately need front 7 D, especially Dline.

[Cugel]

Marty wanted to bring in his brother and AJ didn't want any part of it. The balance of power would have favored Schott. That had more to do with it than player personnel. Marty never had much say in SD about the draft. Besides, that only supports my point in keeping and dealing with Tebow for now. If he pans out then you have a #1 pick you haven't wasted on another QB. If he doesn't pan out, at least you have a more solid team in place and increase a new qb's i.e. Luck chances of success.

If Tebow DOESN'T pan out, then Denver would probably have a top 5 to 10 pick anyway. In which case they can probably draft a franchise QB. There's logic to this.

Except:

#1 -- IF Luck really IS as good as NFL GMs think, then he is an Elway, Manning, Brees type QB who can stick around for 10-15 years and lead you to multiple Super-bowls.

If you have a chance to draft a guy like that you take it. Period. And worry about the defense later, because QBs with that kind of promise come around about once every ten years or so. And most teams never have a chance to get them!

And NOLuck is NOT Alex Smith! (Smith was NOWHERE NEAR as highly rated as Luck is now -- in fact in a year with decent QB prospects he wouldn't have been in the top 10 picks.) The 49ers desperately needed a QB and reached -- and they got burned. As it turned out there was only ONE QB worth spit in the 2005 draft -- Aaron Rogers. And he was not such a great prospect. He was taken #24.

On the other hand, it's highly unlikely that Denver will have a chance at Luck anyway. The Panthers should sign him and build around him. And they're very likely to have the top pick.


Matt Ryan wasn't thrown into a shitty team! They had plenty of D line studs. St Louis has been drafting T's and DE's from Long to Carriker. Flacco came into a team that has Oher and Ngata who preceeded him.

Once again. Billick certainly DID ignore getting a Franchise QB and insisted on Kyle Boller. He DID get Ngata and other great players on defense. Their defense was very good and they even went to the playoffs in 2005. But, this policy got Billick FIRED! It was NOT a success!

It was NOT by design. If Billick had had any brains he'd have drafted a franchise QB much earlier and maybe he'd still have a job! So, yes! Flacco came onto a Ravens team with lots of assets. But, that doesn't "prove" anything other than the supreme importance of having a franchise QB. (And that Billick is an arrogant moron).

Now, I'd rather see Tebow given a chance than draft a QB right now (NO! TO! NEWTON!). But, Luck is rated as the best QB prospect in years -- and face it! Tebow is NOT! :coffee:

How will we feel 5 years from now if Luck is in the Pro-bowl and is considered a young Peyton Manning, while Tebow is long gone because he proved to be inconsistent and not terribly accurate passer. :coffee:

I'm perfectly willing to take the risk that Tebow will flame out while Newton will succeed. He's not such a great prospect that you probably can't find a guy equally good in next years' draft.

But, if Luck IS that "once in a decade" type of player then they'd be damn fools NOT to draft him! And you can bet they will if Denver picks second and has the chance. They are going to suck regardless. They can get some good defensive players in the 2nd round (where they have 2 picks).

[Cugel]

You know who was? Alex Smith and David Carr. Alex Smith was a sure fire cant' miss guy and he has been in and out as the starter and never really done squat!

That's because they sucked. NOT because they were "thrown in too early." Once again. Alex Smith was NOT a "sure fire can't miss" guy at all !He was the top prospect in VERY WEAK class of QBs in 2005. There were serious questions at the time whether he wasn't being over-rated because of the lack of competition and because of the position he played.

Does ANYBODY think that "if only Smith hadn't been thrown in so early he'd be great today!" Nobody thinks that! :coffee:

Know who the other QBs were aside from Aaron Rogers in 2005? Jason Campbell, Charlie Frye, Andrew Walther, David Green and, yes, Kyle Orton in round 4. :coffee:

Not exactly a standout class is it? :coffee:

[WARHORSE]

Once again, we aren't going to beat the Texans (who will drop 40 on us) or the Chargers (who will drop 40 on us)...

Does anyone really think STUDS, McCoy, and Wink can put together a gameplan that will beat anyone?

The gameplan will be 16 passes for Tebow.........and about 16 QB draws on third and 42, 18, 22, etc, etc.





:coffee:






And about 42 pts scored against for the d.






:coffee:





If they hold true to form.
;)

[Cugel]

The gameplan will be 16 passes for Tebow.........and about 16 QB draws on third and 42, 18, 22, etc, etc.
And about 42 pts scored against for the d.

:coffee:

If they hold true to form.
;)

Hope you're right! #2 pick, here we come! :beer:

[LTC Pain]

Draft for defense, defense and more defense. We have improve the defense. And trying to fill the needs on defense via the free agency market ain't working.

[Poet]

I dont care how good everyone THINKS that Luck will be we do not need a Qb right now without knowing what we have in Tebow. You just dont wrap up that much money in two 1st round QB's. And as Jhilde has pointed out we need to concentrate on the defensive line more than any other position right now.

Even if Tebow turns into an above average QB and Luck is a world beater, you have a BETTER team with that above average QB and being stout on the defensive line.

It's a team game.

[Rex]

even if tebow turns into an above average qb and luck is a world beater, you have a better team with that above average qb and being stout on the defensive line.

It's a team game.

fat





fat!

[Poet]

fat





fat!

http://www.cheese-burger.net/images/biggest-cheeseburger-4.jpg

[Juriga72]

That's because they sucked. NOT because they were "thrown in too early." Once again. Alex Smith was NOT a "sure fire can't miss" guy at all !He was the top prospect in VERY WEAK class of QBs in 2005. There were serious questions at the time whether he wasn't being over-rated because of the lack of competition and because of the position he played.

Does ANYBODY think that "if only Smith hadn't been thrown in so early he'd be great today!" Nobody thinks that! :coffee:

Know who the other QBs were aside from Aaron Rogers in 2005? Jason Campbell, Charlie Frye, Andrew Walther, David Green and, yes, Kyle Orton in round 4. :coffee:

Not exactly a standout class is it? :coffee:

Smith also has had what..6 OC's in 5 years now?
Carr got shellacked for 76 sacks his rookie year on 233 attempts.... 1 sack every 2.9 pass attempts.......

[TXBRONC]

Since it's Mel Kiper weighing in I think I would hedge my bets.

[weazel]

it will take more than one draft to clean up the mess that hurricane Josh left...

[sneakers]

If the Broncos think this guy is head and shoulders above every other defensive player, they should grab him.

[PAINTERDAVE]

There was some incredible draft analysis in this thread.
Kudos to you guys who spent so much time and shared your insight.

I think the Broncos have missed on so many drafts...
that even though It sounds good to trade down and stockpile picks...
I think it is time to use the dang pick.. take the BEST guy in the draft...
and make him a centerpiece of the new defense.

It is critical to hit on these guys this draft... and it starts with the first pick.

No more Alphonso Smith debacles, please!

[atwater27]

F--k switching back to the 4-3 just because of one elite defensive prospect. Draft Luck if he is available, or get Fairley.

Nuff said, post of the week.

[Medford Bronco]

Once again, we aren't going to beat the Texans (who will drop 40 on us) or the Chargers (who will drop 40 on us)...

Does anyone really think STUDS, McCoy, and Wink can put together a gameplan that will beat anyone?

Answer is no but even if they did, could this horrible defense execute it:confused:

[Medford Bronco]

There was some incredible draft analysis in this thread.
Kudos to you guys who spent so much time and shared your insight.

I think the Broncos have missed on so many drafts...
that even though It sounds good to trade down and stockpile picks...
I think it is time to use the dang pick.. take the BEST guy in the draft...
and make him a centerpiece of the new defense.

It is critical to hit on these guys this draft... and it starts with the first pick.

No more Alphonso Smith debacles, please!

You always have a better chance on hitting on the #2 or 3 pick over trading down IMO

[Juriga72]

How will we feel 5 years from now if Luck is in the Pro-bowl and is considered a young Peyton Manning, while Tebow is long gone because he proved to be inconsistent and not terribly accurate passer. :coffee:

But, if Luck IS that "once in a decade" type of player then they'd be damn fools NOT to draft him! And you can bet they will if Denver picks second and has the chance. They are going to suck regardless. They can get some good defensive players in the 2nd round (where they have 2 picks).

I would feel just like this year watching Jay Cutler play in a playoff game....

sick to my stomach

[Lonestar]

IMO Kiper is an overated joke.

I much prefer Mayock in his "guesses" and ratings.

Not sure about Bowers but only if he could play NT.

I'm not interested in going back to the 4-3.

Since the NFL is going to more and more passing the 3-4 with the right personnel is the right way to go. the oline rarely can block the blitz if is not the same guy every time.

It also for the much part is better against the run.

[Lancane]

I don't like Kiper, I really don't...but I have to admit the man is right as much as he is wrong and unlike Mayock he's never even played the F'n game, that has a lot to do with the animosity against him. Mike Mayock is the better evaluator of talent, he's played the game and he's got a better outgoing attitude.