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View Full Version : 3-4 or 4-3 Next Year?



WARHORSE
12-20-2010, 04:10 PM
This will have a great effect on our team next year depending on the decision.

If the new coach decides 4-3, we are in for a long night.

You need fast athletic LBers, along with great pass rushers along the front.

And how many of each of those do we have.


We are closer to having the personel to have a good 3-4.


Couple of thoughts:

1. We should build for BOTH, and teach both. Its alot to place on a defense but its worth the effort imo. The versatility to do both to a certain extent only favors US.

2. There are some very good DLs in the draft that can project to both. Da Quan, Quinn and Fairley are going to be able to alot. Fairley can play inside and out, and be outstanding at both if he pans out. He can play anywhere along the line and collapse and bring pressure and stoutness. Hes just a baby. Bowers and Quinn would be DEs in the 4-3 and OLBs in the 3-4.

3. Backup LBers like Woodyard are the faster types that can be plugged into the 4-3 dependin on down and distance. Special teams players that can come in, be mean, tackle, speed around and cover would be a versatility that could really help us be dominant.

4. Id say even teaching a 6-2 on certain downs would be paramount to keeping opposing offenses off guard.

5. Versatility is the name of the game in this day and age of NFL football.

6. Opposing offenses come with more and more looks, and its pertinent to be the same on defense in order to keep things in check.



4-3 or 3-4?


Both. And throw in some other junk too.


Broncos or Die.:beer:

underrated29
12-20-2010, 04:16 PM
i DO NOt think it is that big if we such. Probably easier...


we have williams for DT along with thomas, bannan and vickerson.

we have DE with Doom, ayers, mcbean, hunter

WLB- we have DJ, Haggan(both), Woody

MLB- DJ, Mays, Haggan

SLB---not sure who we have but we have the guys.


34- we need a DE desperately. We need a NT Desperately (same with 43), and we could use upgrade at LB.



I personally like the 34 better as we get much better pressure with it and Doom thrives in it. Get him a little help and a couple fatties to keep our LB clean and let them mop up the run.

DenBronx
12-20-2010, 04:20 PM
no, not both. that's how team have no identity. the teams that run a pure 3-4 have been drafting the right type of players for years. we don't need a bunch of 4-3 linebackers/dl trying to play both schemes. that's why guys get caught with their pants down and let a fullback run for 40 yards.

we seriously need to start thinking about a true NT and some pure 3-4 DE's. We whiffed on Orakpo and Clay Matthews, both whom play a 3-4 very very well. our problem is targeting guys too late in the draft to play these positions and not going after guys in free agency that really make an impact on defense. instead of daniel graham years back maybe we should have actually signed patrick kearny. i know he went to seattle but we should have had a bigger offer for him.

once the 3-4 is established then we can tinker around but right now this eam needs an identity and like john lynch said we actually need to stick with a DC for more than 3 years.

Dzone
12-20-2010, 04:30 PM
Oakland Looked pretty good with a 4-3. There are a lot of good defenses in the league who run a 4-3

Grover
12-20-2010, 04:37 PM
Agree with above poster - you can't teach both systems and expect the team to excel. We will most likely have three picks in the top 50 players in the upcoming draft. Let's pick defense, defense and more defense.

I don't follow college ball so I can't choose specific players. But for picks 1 and 2, I'd choose the best available player, whether it be NT or DE. Then pick 3 I'd choose the best Safety on the boards. And I'd plan for the 3-4, and not the 4-3.

DenBronx
12-20-2010, 04:40 PM
Oakland Looked pretty good with a 4-3. There are a lot of good defenses in the league who run a 4-3

yeah but the elite defenses as of late have mainly been a 3-4.

Jake Klug
12-20-2010, 04:47 PM
3-4. The 3-4 allows you to play a 4-3 out of it but its not so much the case when using the 4-3 as a base and playing the 3-4.

xzn
12-20-2010, 04:53 PM
A 4-3 line with:

LDE - Ayers
LDT - Thomas / Williams / Fields
RDT - Rookie / Fields / Mc Bean
RDE - Dumerville

and LBs

Will - DJ / Woodyard
Mike - Mays / Rookie
Sam - Haggan / Hunter

At first I thought we should stay with 34 but it looks like we could easily convert to a 43. I do think we should focus on ONE, not try to run both.

Peace,

XZN

camdisco24
12-20-2010, 04:57 PM
I'm torn on which one we should go with...
As mentioned, the 3-4 is what the majority of the elite defenses run.
I think it would be easier to build on if we stuck with 3-4...

DenBronx
12-20-2010, 04:58 PM
I don't see the fixation on a 4-3 when Dume and Ayers both play OLB's in a 3-4. Elvis was the league leading pass rusher with 17.5 sacks in 2009, a major boost from when we played a 4-3 and he was notching 8 or so sacks. Ayers has played very well stuffing the run when healthy on the other side. Why screw it up and put players that actually have long term contracts in positions they won't excell in?

Fix the line and all will be fine!!!

dogfish
12-20-2010, 05:00 PM
i inherently prefer the 3-4, and i think our personnel is closer-- plus staying with the 3-4 would at least give us a little bit of schematic continuity, even if the terminology and playbook do change again. . .

here's the bottom line, though-- scheme doesn't matter that much. . . personnel and execution are what's important. . . i really don't give a flying **** what scheme we choose, as long as we actually get the right defensive linemen to run it effectively, and stick with it. . . just get a DC in here who will bring an aggressive mentality and actively scheme to create pressure-- then give the guy some talent and let him do his thing. . . we can run the 46 or a nickel base for all i care, as long as we get a defense that works this time. . .

Cugel
12-20-2010, 05:15 PM
There are advantages and drawbacks to each choice.

4-3: Denver lacks the personnel. You need a BIG, POWERFUL, FAST DE who can both stuff the run and rush the passer. Da'Quan is such a player and there will be a chance to get a stud pass-rusher in this year's draft.

But, generally speaking you need at least TWO such players because one guy can't play every down and do it all.

The problem with the NFL is that there are very FEW such two-way players. That's why so many teams are going to the 3-4. That's why Mario Williams was a #1 overall pick!

Because you can find big, run-stuffer, blocker-eating DEs for a 3-4 in later rounds (just as Pittsburgh does very well).

On the other hand, it could be a waste if the BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE was a DE who would fit in best in a 4-3. Do you pass on the talent and take a LESSER player and pay HIM $50 million guaranteed money? :coffee:

On the other hand, Dumervil proved he can't play DE in a 4-3. He's too small and gets eaten up by blockers. Once he shifted to OLB in a 3-4 he suddenly blossomed into the NFL's leading sacker in 2009!

There's no point in trying to use him as a conventional left outside linebacker in a 4-3. That's a waste.

He should be the ROLB in a 3-4. But, that means Denver desperately needs a rookie NT to take over from Jamal Williams who has NOT done much in this defense. He hasn't been horrible, but every week the defense is pushed up and down the field and utterly fails to generate a pass-rush, especially up the middle.

It doesn't appear that Jamal has much left to contribute at this point in his career. He might retire or not be kept by the new coach.

But, it's unclear that any NT is worth the 2nd pick of the draft and the 2nd round is generally too late to grab an impact NT (like a Vince Wilfork).

Overall, if you're going to change Defenses AGAIN, now is the time to do it when the team is almost totally lacking in talent and most of the players can be easily replaced.

Seriously, posters who are creating depth charts which show the team KEEPING most of the current players on defense are ridiculous!

This Defense utterly SUCKS as they prove week in and week out. That's not just because of bad coaching. They SUCK because they are SERIOUSLY LACKING in TALENT.

The defense was built with scrub special-teamers and old cast-offs from other teams and it shows. Most if not all will be GONE in 2011! :coffee:

The new coach will take one look at this roster and conclude that outside of 4 or 5 players (if you count Bailey and Dawkins or 3 players if you don't), the ENTIRE DEFENSE needs to be replaced!!

Cugel
12-20-2010, 05:23 PM
I don't see the fixation on a 4-3 when Dume and Ayers both play OLB's in a 3-4. Elvis was the league leading pass rusher with 17.5 sacks in 2009, a major boost from when we played a 4-3 and he was notching 8 or so sacks. Ayers has played very well stuffing the run when healthy on the other side. Why screw it up and put players that actually have long term contracts in positions they won't excell in?

Fix the line and all will be fine!!!

Clearly, neither Ayers nor anybody else on this defense has ever "stuffed the run." The Broncos can't rush the passer, can't stop anything and give up big plays like Santa giving away toys! I mean, did you watch the opening series in the Oakland game? See any LBs stopping a 60 yard run? :coffee:

While the new coach will have ZERO commitment to Ayers the team just wasted a 1st round draft pick on him in 2009 and they might as well at least try and get some use out of him for 2011. Maybe he can do better with new coaching and some new talent. On the other hand, perhaps he's just Jarvis Moss Part II. :coffee:

Either way, he's not much use in a 4-3. Obviously, that doesn't matter if they're simply going to cut their losses and get rid of him, but it does if they want to try and make some use of him.

They might as well hire a coach who wants a 3-4 if they want to get the most out of Dumervil though.

Juriga72
12-20-2010, 05:24 PM
yeah but the elite defenses as of late have mainly been a 3-4.

Of the top 10 points allowed defenses..... 6 use 3-4

Green Bay
Baltimore
Jets
Pittsburgh
Miami
San Diego

Atlanta
Chicago
Cleveland
New Orleans use 4-3

Most if not all of these will show 3-4 or 4-3 during a game. The key here is injuries and depth. Green Bay has lost 2 players on each level and still are the best D in the NFl right now.

Drafting a good defense player is what makes defenses good, not drafting a running back, quarter back, wideouts.....

Rb
OLB
CB ( Not on team)
Safety
TE


WR
Qb
OG
C
WR
CB!!!!

Does not make a good defense

DenBronx
12-20-2010, 05:40 PM
Clearly, neither Ayers nor anybody else on this defense has ever "stuffed the run." The Broncos can't rush the passer, can't stop anything and give up big plays like Santa giving away toys! I mean, did you watch the opening series in the Oakland game? See any LBs stopping a 60 yard run? :coffee:

While the new coach will have ZERO commitment to Ayers the team just wasted a 1st round draft pick on him in 2009 and they might as well at least try and get some use out of him for 2011. Maybe he can do better with new coaching and some new talent. On the other hand, perhaps he's just Jarvis Moss Part II. :coffee:

Either way, he's not much use in a 4-3. Obviously, that doesn't matter if they're simply going to cut their losses and get rid of him, but it does if they want to try and make some use of him.

They might as well hire a coach who wants a 3-4 if they want to get the most out of Dumervil though.



Ayers has been hurt alot this year. And when McD drafted him the whole league knew he was a one year wonder in Tenn and would be a work in progress/developmental player in the NFL. That is why when you are running a PURE 3-4 like Nolan brought you draft the right players in the first round or it won't show on the field. We need to stop drafting questionable/injury prone players early in the draft. It's ok to take chances later but not early.

No more one trick ponies.

Ziggy
12-20-2010, 05:40 PM
I prefer the 3-4 for the simple fact that you can disguise the pass rush without bringing more than 4. The OLB that is rushing the QB can be coming from anywhere. In the 4-3, you know where all 4 rushers are coming from, unless you use the zone blitz or stunts, and both of those have some serious drawbacks.

BigSarge87
12-20-2010, 05:42 PM
I say we run a 1-4-6. All we need is the Incredible Hulk at NT.

I agree the scheme doesn't matter. I also think we have more talent on the defense than it would seem.

Great defense comes from high intensity play. A couple of play-making leaders in any position on defense combined with a DC that inspires confidence would raise the level of everyone's play and in turn make this a vastly improved defense.

DenBronx
12-20-2010, 05:44 PM
Of the top 10 points allowed defenses..... 6 use 3-4

Green Bay
Baltimore
Jets
Pittsburgh
Miami
San Diego

Atlanta
Chicago
Cleveland
New Orleans use 4-3

Most if not all of these will show 3-4 or 4-3 during a game. The key here is injuries and depth. Green Bay has lost 2 players on each level and still are the best D in the NFl right now.

Drafting a good defense player is what makes defenses good, not drafting a running back, quarter back, wideouts.....

Rb
OLB
CB ( Not on team)
Safety
TE


WR
Qb
OG
C
WR
CB!!!!

Does not make a good defense

terrible drafts!!! we didnt even need offense when josh came here. the one thing he did right was bring in nolan to coach the 3-4 but he couldnt keep his nose out of nolans plan to build it.

G_Money
12-20-2010, 05:48 PM
I don't understand people saying "well, Doom was best in a 3-4, so we need to keep it." He was best UNDER A GOOD DC. Playing for Slowik, why would we think he was being used to his best potential anyway? Is he better suited for rushing the passer in a 3-4? Maybe so. I don't see why that makes the 3-4 a requirement for us even if true.

I also don't think you build a defense around Dumervil. You don't build an offense around Brandon Lloyd, right? The spread has obviously been very good to Brandon, but nobody's gonna gripe if we go in a different direction on offense.

I know we owe Doom a lot of money. That's not a good enough reason to go 3-4.

If we can get the players for a 3-4 and the coach for a 3-4, go for it.

If the players and coach are more suitable for a 4-3, that's fine too.

I have no pre-determined preference. 3-4 is nice in some ways, 4-3 is nice in other ways. Add the coach, figure out what he does best, and staff the team accordingly.

There's nobody good enough on D to mandate playing one way or the other, and as more teams go to the 3-4 and the quality of NTs drops, teams will go back to a 4-3 just because that's what the available talent pool mandates. If we're not there yet we're getting close.

I just want a decent defense.

~G

Day1BroncoFan
12-20-2010, 05:51 PM
I wish they'd just make up their minds, stick to it long enough for it to start working and get the people needed for whatever system they decide to use. Stop the merry-go-round BS.

Cugel
12-20-2010, 07:14 PM
Ayers has been hurt alot this year. And when McD drafted him the whole league knew he was a one year wonder in Tenn and would be a work in progress/developmental player in the NFL. That is why when you are running a PURE 3-4 like Nolan brought you draft the right players in the first round or it won't show on the field. We need to stop drafting questionable/injury prone players early in the draft. It's ok to take chances later but not early.

No more one trick ponies.

Moss was a 1 trick pony too! Yet we gave up TWO draft picks to actually MOVE UP and get him. :coffee:

That's why I mentioned Moss, because Ayers right now is Jarvis Moss II. He still has a chance to avoid that fate, but he's got to stay healthy and produce a lot more than he has so far (which is very little).

It still burns me that McIdiot insisted on drafting Knowshon Moreno when Brian Orakpo was sitting right there! :Tsk:

SmilinAssasSin27
12-20-2010, 07:21 PM
I'm cool w/ whichever can be legit the quickest. Elvis hurts us at DE in a 3-4 on run downs. We'd need some damn good DT and LB prospects to cover his ass. I believe Ayers can excel in a 4-3 DE rotation w/ Elvis, a rookie like Bowers and whoever else we use for depth. He could likely also play a little at DT like the Giants do w/ their DEs.

Either way, we need to draft front 7 heavy. If we stay 3-4, we get a whole new DLine. If we go 4-3, we need some stud OLBs after we draft Bowers.

SmilinAssasSin27
12-20-2010, 07:23 PM
Moss was a 1 trick pony too! Yet we gave up TWO draft picks to actually MOVE UP and get him. :coffee:

That's why I mentioned Moss, because Ayers right now is Jarvis Moss II. He still has a chance to avoid that fate, but he's got to stay healthy and produce a lot more than he has so far (which is very little).

It still burns me that McIdiot insisted on drafting Knowshon Moreno when Brian Orakpo was sitting right there! :Tsk:

Moss is also learning a whole new scheme. He has made some plays, and has looked bad at times. He's done much more than Moss has so far IMHO. I'm STILL mad we didn't draft Posluszny.

Cugel
12-20-2010, 07:26 PM
I don't understand people saying "well, Doom was best in a 3-4, so we need to keep it." He was best UNDER A GOOD DC. Playing for Slowik, why would we think he was being used to his best potential anyway? Is he better suited for rushing the passer in a 3-4? Maybe so. I don't see why that makes the 3-4 a requirement for us even if true.

Because Doom was the best pass rusher in the NFL in 2009, that's why. On this defense he stands out like Jessica Alba at a high-school reunion!


I also don't think you build a defense around Dumervil. You don't build an offense around Brandon Lloyd, right? The spread has obviously been very good to Brandon, but nobody's gonna gripe if we go in a different direction on offense.

I know we owe Doom a lot of money. That's not a good enough reason to go 3-4.

If we can get the players for a 3-4 and the coach for a 3-4, go for it.

If the players and coach are more suitable for a 4-3, that's fine too.

They've got to start SOMEWHERE! And starting with possibly the NFL's best pass-rusher is a pretty good place to begin!

Who else are they going to keep? Champ clearly wants out. The Broncos are in full scale rebuilding mode and he wants to win a championship BEFORE his career ends. He only has a few more years and he doesn't like all the coaching changes.

Dawkins same thing. He didn't come to be part of a failed experiment. You can bet he regrets coming here.

D.J. -- Assuming he stays out of trouble off the field, he's the ONE other player who's actually worth anything on this defense. He needs a LOT of help, but at least he has some talent.

So, if you subtract Champ and Dawkins, basically you have 2 players out of 11 starters who would get starting jobs on any decent team in the league! The rest are mediocre at best and totally worthless Scrubs who should be relegated to special teams at worst.

That's not a lot of talent to build from!

Why would you get rid of the NFL's best pass rusher? Or stick him in a defense where he can't excel, because he's forced to play DE!

He's too small to wrestle with 330 lbs. OTs all day in run defense. It wears him down and limits his productivity. He needs some DEs up front to take up the blockers and let him make plays. He's great at that. That means a 3-4.


I have no pre-determined preference. 3-4 is nice in some ways, 4-3 is nice in other ways. Add the coach, figure out what he does best, and staff the team accordingly.

There's nobody good enough on D to mandate playing one way or the other, and as more teams go to the 3-4 and the quality of NTs drops, teams will go back to a 4-3 just because that's what the available talent pool mandates. If we're not there yet we're getting close.

Actually it's a LOT harder to find TWO (minimum) great DEs who are 6'5" and quick and agile enough to rush the passer, yet strong enough to fight off blockers and stuff the run.

That's Bill Parcells "Big Planet Theory" -- there are only so many men that big and athletic on the planet, it's tough to find these guys and, like Mario Williams, the really good ones tend to be drafted in the top 5 picks of the draft. These days, it's often the top 2 or 3 picks. (Think Julius Peppers #3).

It's always going to be easier to find ONE NT than TWO DEs. There are close to enough NTs to go around the entire league (i.e. about 15 to 20 men big and athletic enough to play starting NT -- even if only a handful of them are like Casey Hampton or Vince Wilfork).

But the same 20 teams would need a minimum of 40 DEs like Mario Williams to have a decent 4-3! And there are MAYBE two or three in any draft! And if you don't have a top 5 or 6 pick, forget it! :coffee: