All this "Trade Tebow " talk...

[PAINTERDAVE]

So...
if a Rookie QB needs to sit and learn for a year or two...

well...

Tebow has not only had a great Training camp...
a good pre-season...
but has also been in actual games and thrown for a TD..
as well as rushed for 2 more.
I beleive he has played 19 downs.

He is near ready no matter how you figure it out..
(these trash games now, or the beginning of next season)

Why on God's green earth would we trade him now...
giving the huge potential of a GREAT QB that WE trained to some other team...

in order to draft a NEW rookie QB and have him sit on our bench?

Just makes ZERO sense to me.

[I Eat Staples]

If you have faith that Josh McDaniels of all people is right while mostly every scout and expert is wrong, then that's you.

[Northman]

So...
if a Rookie QB needs to sit and learn for a year or two...

well...

Tebow has not only had a great Training camp...
a good pre-season...
but has also been in actual games and thrown for a TD..
as well as rushed for 2 more.
I beleive he has played 19 downs.

He is near ready no matter how you figure it out..
(these trash games now, or the beginning of next season)

Why on God's green earth would we trade him now...
giving the huge potential of a GREAT QB that WE trained to some other team...

in order to draft a NEW rookie QB and have him sit on our bench?

Just makes ZERO sense to me.


Just to piss you off.

[PAINTERDAVE]

If you have faith that Josh McDaniels of all people is right while mostly every scout and expert is wrong, then that's you.

You state a false idea as fact.

NOT every scout and expert is against Tebow succeeding.


When an argument relies on the words "experts agree"...
it is a FAILED argument...

Reminds me of Al Gore. LOL.

[PAINTERDAVE]

So... say Luck is available...

we spend yet ANOTHER 1st round pick on a QB who sits...
instead of a D-lineman?

That makes a lot of sense, right? :confused:

[Ravage!!!]

I'm guessing, most teams do NOT sit their 1st round QB for 2 years by choice. NOne have. Rivers would have started his rookie season if he didn't hold out. Rodgers was to sit one season behind Favre, and Favre was thought to retire.

Mannning, Manning, Ryan, Stafford, Sanchez, Bradford, Flacco, Rothlesburger... all started their rookie season.

But I'm telling you now. Someone bought me a Tim Tebow jersey for Christmas, so the odds of us trading him away have just TRIPLED.

[Ravage!!!]

So... say Luck is available...

we spend yet ANOTHER 1st round pick on a QB who sits...
instead of a D-lineman?

That makes a lot of sense, right? :confused:

WHy would Luck sit? There is no reason to sit him. He would be the best QB on the roster from day one, and you would put him in the lineup to learn the NFL as quickly as possible... just as every QB I listed above (although I know Eli didn't start right away, and Roth started because of injury). They all started.

[BroncoStud]

honestly, if Luck is available when Denver is up to draft I would think that it's very hard to pass on him, Tebow or not. The more you see of this guy the more he looks like a badass in the making.

We still need to see how good Tebow is beforehand, which is why the management decision not to play him perplexes me.

[silkamilkamonico]

Why on God's green earth would we trade him now...
giving the huge potential of a GREAT QB that WE trained to some other team...

in order to draft a NEW rookie QB and have him sit on our bench?

Just makes ZERO sense to me.

If he is ready, why on God's green earth would you not play him now, especially in a lost season where you have an opportunity to see what you have? That just makes zero sense to me. WTF is the problem?

[BroncoStud]

If he is ready, why on God's green earth would you not play him now, especially in a lost season where you have an opportunity to see what you have? That just makes zero sense to me. WTF is the problem?

Short Answer: Denver Broncos management

[BigDaddyBronco]

If he is ready, why on God's green earth would you not play him now, especially in a lost season where you have an opportunity to see what you have? That just makes zero sense to me. WTF is the problem?

Either our front office and coaching is dumb as a bag of rocks or Tebow just isn't showing enough in practice, in the film room, etc. to give the coaches enough confidence that he can do it.

I still think he might play in a blowout against the Raiders (if we are down by more than 14 points), and definately will play against the Texans and Chargers. What better way to get fans to come to two meaningless games over the holidays than to have Tebow as the headliner. Makes perfect marketing sense to me.

[PAINTERDAVE]

If Luck comes out...

Carolina will take him..
End of that discussion.

[BigDaddyBronco]

If Luck comes out...

Carolina will take him..
End of that discussion.
No doubt in my mind.

[Northman]

Bottom line, if they traded Tebow it would be because they would see how draft picks or players they could get to help the team. Thats of course if they are sold on Orton or Quinn. But this team has so many needs that its pretty plausble that Tebow would garner more than Orton or even Quinn at this point in terms of trade value.

[PAINTERDAVE]

Either our front office and coaching is dumb as a bag of rocks or Tebow just isn't showing enough in practice, in the film room, etc. to give the coaches enough confidence that he can do it.

I still think he might play in a blowout against the Raiders (if we are down by more than 14 points), and definately will play against the Texans and Chargers. What better way to get fans to come to two meaningless games over the holidays than to have Tebow as the headliner. Makes perfect marketing sense to me.

Yesterday both Lloyd and Coach Stud said

"Tebow is prepared. He looks good. If he needs to go in he is ready".

I get tired of the argument that
(cue scary music)
"They know something we dont know and it is BAD."

That argument is immature... the kind of argument you use to scare young children with.

Tebow is a tough guy. A great competitor.
He can play this game.
Time will tell if he is one of the GREAT ONES or not...
but it is ridiculous to think that this guy is gonna be a weak kneed sister.

[PAINTERDAVE]

Bottom line, if they traded Tebow it would be because they would see how draft picks or players they could get to help the team. Thats of course if they are sold on Orton or Quinn. But this team has so many needs that its pretty plausble that Tebow would garner more than Orton or even Quinn at this point in terms of trade value.

I appreciate you giving one reason why...

yet...

Neither Quinn or Orton is a plausable answer...
that is proved out... not a specious fallacy...

so again...

exactly what I stated in my original post.

[BigDaddyBronco]

Yesterday both Lloyd and Coach Stud said

"Tebow is prepared. He looks good. If he needs to go in he is ready".

I get tired of the argument that
(cue scary music)
"They know something we dont know and it is BAD."

That argument is immature... the kind of argument you use to scare young children with.

Tebow is a tough guy. A great competitor.
He can play this game.
Time will tell if he is one of the GREAT ONES or not...
but it is ridiculous to think that this guy is gonna be a weak kneed sister.

They aren't letting him play for some reason, my guess is marketing for the final 2 games, but do you think that Studesville and Lloyd could just be repeating the company line of not saying anything bad against a player or the team? Most teams behave that way, have you ever heard Bellicheck say anything at all to the press that would give them any insight at all. If Tebow had been looking crappy, there is no need to throw him under the bus at this point of the season. Why further destroy his confidence and/or trade value?

[Krugan]

Think we will know more in the next 2 months.

depends on who is the GM and then who is the next coach.

It wouldnt be a shocker to have a new coach come in and trade away a first round QB before ever working with him.

It will have been 2 years, gotta be time to change the sheets right, right???

[Ravage!!!]

They aren't letting him play for some reason, my guess is marketing for the final 2 games, but do you think that Studesville and Lloyd could just be repeating the company line of not saying anything bad against a player or the team? Most teams behave that way, have you ever heard Bellicheck say anything at all to the press that would give them any insight at all. If Tebow had been looking crappy, there is no need to throw him under the bus at this point of the season. Why further destroy his confidence and/or trade value?

Exactly. STudes, nor Lloyd, are going to say anything negative about a teammate, why would they? What would be gained? What would be the point? Their comments to anyone, at this point, have to be taken at face value and nothing more. It is what it is, a coach and teammate praising a friend on the team.

I would bet 100% of my weekly paycheck, that if they were asked the exact same question about Quinn, we would hear the same answer.

[RebelRocker]

So...
if a Rookie QB needs to sit and learn for a year or two...

well...

Tebow has not only had a great Training camp...
a good pre-season...
but has also been in actual games and thrown for a TD..
as well as rushed for 2 more.
I beleive he has played 19 downs.

He is near ready no matter how you figure it out..
(these trash games now, or the beginning of next season)

Why on God's green earth would we trade him now...
giving the huge potential of a GREAT QB that WE trained to some other team...

in order to draft a NEW rookie QB and have him sit on our bench?

Just makes ZERO sense to me.

Just to add to your point, why would we trade a guy one year after we gave up FOUR draft picks to get him?!!?

[Northman]

I appreciate you giving one reason why...

yet...

Neither Quinn or Orton is a plausable answer...
that is proved out... not a specious fallacy...

so again...

exactly what I stated in my original post.


Although i would agree with you about Quinn and Orton doesnt mean that the new HC or even the FO would agree or do the same. I just watched our last HC rip a very talented offense to shreds so even if we sit here and claim that Tebow is the best option we have it doesnt mean the next HC will see it that way. Im just throwing it out there of what could happen since now we are in worse shape than we were two years ago.

[slim]

Exactly. STudes, nor Lloyd, are going to say anything negative about a teammate, why would they? What would be gained? What would be the point? Their comments to anyone, at this point, have to be taken at face value and nothing more. It is what it is, a coach and teammate praising a friend on the team.

I would bet 100% of my weekly paycheck, that if they were asked the exact same question about Quinn, we would hear the same answer.

You should have heard Llyod's interview on 104.3 the other day. When asked why he has been unable to maintain his early season success, he basically through the o-line and knowshon under the bus. It was pathetic.

[BigDaddyBronco]

Exactly. STudes, nor Lloyd, are going to say anything negative about a teammate, why would they? What would be gained? What would be the point? Their comments to anyone, at this point, have to be taken at face value and nothing more. It is what it is, a coach and teammate praising a friend on the team.

I would bet 100% of my weekly paycheck, that if they were asked the exact same question about Quinn, we would hear the same answer.
When has a coach or player ever thrown a teammate under the bus in a middle of the week interview? If it was right after the game when emotions are high, or it's a guy like TO, you might hear something, but a normal interview is going to be bland with all the right company speak.

[slim]

When has a coach or player ever thrown a teammate under the bus in a middle of the week interview? If it was right after the game when emotions are high, or it's a guy like TO, you might hear something, but a normal interview is going to be bland with all the right company speak.

See post #22 in this thread :welcome:

[Ravage!!!]

You should have heard Llyod's interview on 104.3 the other day. When asked why he has been unable to maintain his early season success, he basically through the o-line and knowshon under the bus. It was pathetic.

Yeah.. but that still doesn't change my opinion. Everyteam is asked about someone on the roster, and you hear the same things from every coaching staff and every teammate.

If you asked them about Quinn, they would say the same thing. "I think he's ready if called upon."

[BigDaddyBronco]

See post #22 in this thread :welcome:
Ok, so Lloyd is TO and Tebow must be ready then.

Thanks, Slim.

[broncofaninfla]

Even with Mcd gone I've lost all faith in the Broncos brass. There is no rational reason Tebow or Quinn for that matter shouldn't have been given reps to evaluate them for next season. Orton has stunk it up yet all we hear is how Orton gives us teh best chance to win. If that's so then why do we keep losing?

As for the Tebow trade talk Mcd created a environment in which talent was routinely traded off of the team, it's only natural to assume others await the same fate.

[robert ethan]

Mannning, Manning, Ryan, Stafford, Sanchez, Bradford, Flacco, Rothlesburger... all started their rookie season.

Those guys all started because of injury or training camp/early season failure by the vet in front of them. That wasn't the case in Denver. Kyle has been healthy all year and played lights out up until the beginning of December. Hell, Roethlisberger was third string in Pitt. It took injuries to Maddox and Batch for him to get a chance to play. It's as false as the "all scouts panned Tebow as a QB" premise. That was largely a couple of media shills like Kuiper and McShay braying away because they wanted to be "edgy" and seperate themselves from all the other couch spuds. Except most of the other couch spuds followed them down the same path.

Andrew Luck has a similar hitch in his windup, doesn't throw the ball nearly as hard as Tebow, and has had one good season in a second rate conference.

[silkamilkamonico]

I'm really glad Denver is messing with the potential winning season they could have next year just so they can get 2-3 meaningless wins this year by playing Kyle Orton.

Maybe the front office should do Tebow a favor, and trade him.

[robert ethan]

Just to add to your point, why would we trade a guy one year after we gave up FOUR draft picks to get him?!!?

So, it's "four" draft picks now?:confused:

If anyone bothers to look at the draft, Denver traded BACK twice with the first round pick they got from the Bears. They had four extra picks from when they started the day by the time they drafted Thomas and Tebow. All they did was package some of them to get the two players they wanted all along.

They went into the draft WITH SIX PICKS. They ended the day WITH NINE PLAYERS. The picks they packaged to draft Tebow, were pretty much exactly the trade value of the #25 overall pick in the draft. Better to get 9 players you really want than 15 you aren't that keen on.

[Northman]

Better to get 9 players you really want than 15 you aren't that keen on.

That quote has some merit but in considering every draft is a crapshoot anyway i would take getting more players as your odds of finding gems goes up dramatically. Although i felt we did much better in last years draft than the first one i still think we could of done better this past year. Drafting a QB in the first round just to sit on the bench is pretty meaningless when your rebuilding.

[rationalfan]

So...
if a Rookie QB needs to sit and learn for a year or two...

well...

Tebow has not only had a great Training camp...
a good pre-season...
but has also been in actual games and thrown for a TD..
as well as rushed for 2 more.
I beleive he has played 19 downs.

He is near ready no matter how you figure it out..
(these trash games now, or the beginning of next season)

Why on God's green earth would we trade him now...
giving the huge potential of a GREAT QB that WE trained to some other team...

in order to draft a NEW rookie QB and have him sit on our bench?

Just makes ZERO sense to me.

because for many people tebow=mcdaniels, and they want all memories of mcd scrubbed from the team.

[Ravage!!!]

because for many people tebow=mcdaniels, and they want all memories of mcd scrubbed from the team.

I don't think thats true. We've already seen what happens when a coach comes in and purges the talent away, and that was proven talent.

[vandammage13]

That quote has some merit but in considering every draft is a crapshoot anyway i would take getting more players as your odds of finding gems goes up dramatically. Although i felt we did much better in last years draft than the first one i still think we could of done better this past year. Drafting a QB in the first round just to sit on the bench is pretty meaningless when your rebuilding.

It's not meaningless if that QB turns out to be a gem.

To say that you shouldn't draft a QB when you are rebuilding is kind of a weak statement. How many #1 overall picks have been spent on QB's over the years? Those teams picking #1 certainly always have more holes to fill than just QB, but yet QB's are constantly picked #1 overall. Some of these QB's start right away and some sit for a while, and sometimes it works out for them and sometimes it doesn't.

But the fact that Tebow wasn't even a #1 overall (a mid 20's pick), even makes it less of a gamble.

[Ravage!!!]

It's not meaningless if that QB turns out to be a gem.

To say that you shouldn't draft a QB when you are rebuilding is kind of a weak statement. How many #1 overall picks have been spent on QB's over the years? Those teams picking #1 certainly always have more holes to fill than just QB, but yet QB's are constantly picked #1 overall. Some of these QB's start right away and some sit for a while, and sometimes it works out for them and sometimes it doesn't.

But the fact that Tebow wasn't even a #1 overall (a mid 20's pick), even makes it less of a gamble.


When you are "rebuilding".... and you spend 4 picks on a 'project' QB... tahts not something rebuilding teams do. Thats something a team that has an established team, and can afford to use the picks that would normally round out your depth. We didn't have that luxury.

It absolutely was a gamble to spend that kind of value on one player, and one that wasn't even ready to get into the lineup.

[silkamilkamonico]

It's not meaningless if that QB turns out to be a gem.

To say that you shouldn't draft a QB when you are rebuilding is kind of a weak statement. How many #1 overall picks have been spent on QB's over the years? Those teams picking #1 certainly always have more holes to fill than just QB, but yet QB's are constantly picked #1 overall. Some of these QB's start right away and some sit for a while, and sometimes it works out for them and sometimes it doesn't.

But the fact that Tebow wasn't even a #1 overall (a mid 20's pick), even makes it less of a gamble.

I have an issue with this, although I understand your agument. If that QB busts, it will be a colassal bonehead mistake. I think that works both ways.

I understand teams want to draft a first round QB, but not if it's the QB you don't want. Everyone knows McDaniels wanted Bradford. He was also set on McCoy before a weekend outing with Tebow changed his plans. Tebow has been considered one of the biggest challenges of a any project QB drafted ion the first round....probably ever. He has a high reward, but also a high risk, that goes both ways too.

SF needed a Qb to rebuild a few years ago. They were enamored with Leinart who didn't come out, so they drafted Smith instead. They weren't even that high on Smith, but they wanted a QB to build around.

If MCDaniels and Denver were 100% sold on Tebow, I don't have an issue with it. If they weren't and just wheeled and dealed just to get a QB because they need to groom one, IMHO big mistake. In the end it doesn't matter either way, because the bottom line is that player has to perform on the field.

[Northman]

It's not meaningless if that QB turns out to be a gem.

To say that you shouldn't draft a QB when you are rebuilding is kind of a weak statement. How many #1 overall picks have been spent on QB's over the years? Those teams picking #1 certainly always have more holes to fill than just QB, but yet QB's are constantly picked #1 overall. Some of these QB's start right away and some sit for a while, and sometimes it works out for them and sometimes it doesn't.

But the fact that Tebow wasn't even a #1 overall (a mid 20's pick), even makes it less of a gamble.


Yea, i did a nice bit of research on this a few weeks back. Out of all the QB's taken in just the last decade in the first round maybe 4 of them sat for more than one year. All the rest were starters from the get go. The constant talk of we are rebuilding by some fans on here is pretty hilarious. When this team was taken over it had already begun that process and then it was stripped down. For every team in the league that is TRULY rebuilding (i.e Detroit, St. Louis) those teams have their rookie QB's playing now building chemistry and getting them experience. If Denver was a playoff contender than yes, having a rookie QB sit on the bench is a great thing but we are not a contender so having Tebow sit is moronic.

[Buff]

Did I miss something? I don't think I've heard one person suggest that we ought to trade Tebow.

[Dirk]

In the end it doesn't matter either way, because the bottom line is that player has to perform on the field.


He has to get on the field first. Just sayin'. ;)

[Ravage!!!]

I have an issue with this, although I understand your agument. If that QB busts, it will be a colassal bonehead mistake. I think that works both ways.

I understand teams want to draft a first round QB, but not if it's the QB you don't want. Everyone knows McDaniels wanted Bradford. He was also set on McCoy before a weekend outing with Tebow changed his plans. Tebow has been considered one of the biggest challenges of a any project QB drafted ion the first round....probably ever. He has a high reward, but also a high risk, that goes both ways too.

SF needed a Qb to rebuild a few years ago. They were enamored with Leinart who didn't come out, so they drafted Smith instead. They weren't even that high on Smith, but they wanted a QB to build around.

If MCDaniels and Denver were 100% sold on Tebow, I don't have an issue with it. If they weren't and just wheeled and dealed just to get a QB because they need to groom one, IMHO big mistake. In the end it doesn't matter either way, because the bottom line is that player has to perform on the field.

Great points.... and I think part of the answer circles back to the Cutler trade. Not changing the topic. But that trade had the domino effect of having to replace that talent. So I think the pressure and the NEED to get "that guy" was big.

[robert ethan]

First of all, AND IT'S THE LAST TIME I SHOULD HAVE TO SAY IT, the Broncos DID NOT TRADE 4 PICKS FOR TEBOW. They traded an EXTRA second rounder (acquired in Marshall deal), an EXTRA third rounder (acquired earlier in draft), and an EXTRA fourth rounder (also acquired earlier in the day) in order to move up to #25 overall. The draft chart value of those three picks is just marginally more (combined), than the value of the pick they got. The average first year production for QBs drafted in the 20s is about the same as Tim has managed this year to date.

[slim]

I still can't believe they traded 4 picks for Tebow.

That was a lot to give up.

[Ravage!!!]

First of all, AND IT'S THE LAST TIME I SHOULD HAVE TO SAY IT, the Broncos DID NOT TRADE 4 PICKS FOR TEBOW. They traded an EXTRA second rounder (acquired in Marshall deal), an EXTRA third rounder (acquired earlier in draft), and an EXTRA fourth rounder (also acquired earlier in the day) in order to move up to #25 overall. The draft chart value of those three picks is just marginally more (combined), than the value of the pick they got. The average first year production for QBs drafted in the 20s is about the same as Tim has managed this year to date.

No such thing as "extra" picks when you are rebuilding. Teams are MADE from 2nd, 3rd, and 4th round picks. This is the LAST TIME I SHOULD HAVE TO SAY THIS :lol:

[robert ethan]

No such thing as "extra" picks when you are rebuilding. Teams are MADE from 2nd, 3rd, and 4th round picks. This is the LAST TIME I SHOULD HAVE TO SAY THIS :lol:

Broncos drafted EIGHT OTHER PLAYERS beside Tebow last season. None of them were QBs, and most of them are still with the team.

[Northman]

I still can't believe they traded 4 picks for Tebow.

That was a lot to give up.


:lol::lol::lol:

[Dzone]

Trading Tebow would be another slap in the face of Bronco fans. That would suck as bad as the Hillis trade. Right now, Tebow is keeping fans interested in this season. And you cant judge a player on a couple games either. Elway had some crappy games his rookie year. He even got replaced by Steve Deberg

[Dzone]

Too bad we dont have the Genius Mcdaniels anymore.

[Traveler]

I was listening to Pat Kirwin on Sirius on the way home yesterday. There was a caller from Colorado asking Pat what he thought about the Broncos not starting Tebow.

Pat basically said he couldn't understand the reasoning for not doing so. Also said what many here, including myself, have said. This is precisely the time to evaluate Tebow and the other younger players, so they have a better idea on how to proceed in personnel acquisition this offseason.

All this talk of possibly trading him is ridiculous IMO. The kid has to get the opportunity to OJT. This team has way too many pressing needs to spend another 1st round draft pick on another QB in consecutive years.

[Lonestar]

So...
if a Rookie QB needs to sit and learn for a year or two...

well...

Tebow has not only had a great Training camp...
a good pre-season...
but has also been in actual games and thrown for a TD..
as well as rushed for 2 more.
I beleive he has played 19 downs.

He is near ready no matter how you figure it out..
(these trash games now, or the beginning of next season)

Why on God's green earth would we trade him now...
giving the huge potential of a GREAT QB that WE trained to some other team...

in order to draft a NEW rookie QB and have him sit on our bench?

Just makes ZERO sense to me.

You do not trade a potential Franchise QB until he has time to prove himself one way or another.

As you said getting another high darft choice get you no farther towards getting a starting Franchise QB than we are today maybe even we are that much farther behind.

I'm not at all interested in newton the only other QB I'd even look at over Tebow is Luck out of stanford and only because he is seen as the first can't miss QB since john.

That said I'd rather have Tebow as we speak. The price is right for now and we would not have to give up other REAL draft choices to get him. Draft choices we need this year to get DLINE help.
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[Lonestar]

Yesterday both Lloyd and Coach Stud said

"Tebow is prepared. He looks good. If he needs to go in he is ready".

I get tired of the argument that
(cue scary music)
"They know something we dont know and it is BAD."

That argument is immature... the kind of argument you use to scare young children with.

Tebow is a tough guy. A great competitor.
He can play this game.
Time will tell if he is one of the GREAT ONES or not...
but it is ridiculous to think that this guy is gonna be a weak kneed sister.

As I said in another post.

Mc Coy was lost calling plays last week many were late coming in to Orton which I suspect did not help him maintain composure.

Just think what that would do to Tebow whether he is "ready" or not.
The rumor is that he has virtually NO reps with the first teamers since TC so his timing with RB and espescialy wr is for crap. If any of that is true it would not help his development at all IMHO.
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[rationalfan]

I don't think thats true. We've already seen what happens when a coach comes in and purges the talent away, and that was proven talent.

do you mean "generic" coach, or mcd. hard to tell.

[Lonestar]

So, it's "four" draft picks now?:confused:

If anyone bothers to look at the draft, Denver traded BACK twice with the first round pick they got from the Bears. They had four extra picks from when they started the day by the time they drafted Thomas and Tebow. All they did was package some of them to get the two players they wanted all along.

They went into the draft WITH SIX PICKS. They ended the day WITH NINE PLAYERS. The picks they packaged to draft Tebow, were pretty much exactly the trade value of the #25 overall pick in the draft. Better to get 9 players you really want than 15 you aren't that keen on.

Thanks for stating the obvious.

Just curious wh those extra 6 players might have been, who on this team would have been cut to make room for them and IF 6 more rookies would have made anymore impact other than on ST.
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[rationalfan]

Thanks for stating the obvious.

Just curious wh those extra 6 players might have been, who on this team would have been cut to make room for them and IF 6 more rookies would have made anymore impact other than on ST.
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don't dare ask such sane questions. some people here simple equate "draft pick" with gold. the hope of a pick that will probably not pan out is more valuable than proven commodities.

[robert ethan]

Thanks for stating the obvious.

Just curious wh those extra 6 players might have been, who on this team would have been cut to make room for them and IF 6 more rookies would have made anymore impact other than on ST.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Apparently "the obvious" is not obvious to all. To repeat, the Broncos ended the 2010 draft with 9 picks. They started with 6. So, with all the wheeling and dealing they came up with 3 EXTRA picks. Not 6 LESS.

[slim]

Apparently "the obvious" is not obvious to all. To repeat, the Broncos ended the 2010 draft with 9 picks. They started with 6. So, with all the wheeling and dealing they came up with 3 EXTRA picks. Not 6 LESS.

What about the 4 picks we traded for Tebow?

[Lonestar]

Yea, i did a nice bit of research on this a few weeks back. Out of all the QB's taken in just the last decade in the first round maybe 4 of them sat for more than one year. All the rest were starters from the get go. The constant talk of we are rebuilding by some fans on here is pretty hilarious. When this team was taken over it had already begun that process and then it was stripped down. For every team in the league that is TRULY rebuilding (i.e Detroit, St. Louis) those teams have their rookie QB's playing now building chemistry and getting them experience. If Denver was a playoff contender than yes, having a rookie QB sit on the bench is a great thing but we are not a contender so having Tebow sit is moronic.

By which you mean cutler was traded we got a LS and couple of ex Pats to help the transition and we dumped all of our worthless RB's and most of the defense. But then the defense needed to be blown up.

So was that what you really meant or was there something I missed.

[I Eat Staples]

You state a false idea as fact.

NOT every scout and expert is against Tebow succeeding.


When an argument relies on the words "experts agree"...
it is a FAILED argument...

Reminds me of Al Gore. LOL.

I didn't say every. I said mostly every, specifically to avoid hyperbole such as that.


Did I miss something? I don't think I've heard one person suggest that we ought to trade Tebow.

:welcome:


don't dare ask such sane questions. some people here simple equate "draft pick" with gold. the hope of a pick that will probably not pan out is more valuable than proven commodities.

It comes down to if you think Tebow can be serviceable, be a star, or not be able to play QB in the NFL at all. If you have my opinion of him, its a wasted pick.

[Northman]

By which you mean cutler was traded we got a LS and couple of ex Pats to help the transition and we dumped all of our worthless RB's and most of the defense. But then the defense needed to be blown up.

So was that what you really meant or was there something I missed.

Yea, you missed a lot. The loss of Marshall, Hillis, etc. All talent that had to be re-addressed when it shouldnt have come to that.

[I Eat Staples]

By which you mean cutler was traded we got a LS and couple of ex Pats to help the transition and we dumped all of our worthless RB's and most of the defense. But then the defense needed to be blown up.

So was that what you really meant or was there something I missed.

Don't forget trading Peyton Hillis, trading Marshall, drafting an RB and some WRs, trading a first for an undersized CB whom we then traded for a TE that should struggle to fill a roster on a decent team, drafting a TE that can't see the field, stockpiling picks and then blowing them on at best a project QB, signing worthless free agents like Bannan, Williams, and Jarvis Green, trading for Maroney.

I can go on and on I'm sure, McDumbass literally blew this team up. Not rebuilt, blew it up. Destroyed it.

[Lonestar]

What about the 4 picks we traded for Tebow?

We did not trade 4 picks for him Josh packaged the extra #2, 3 and 4 four we got from moving around on draft day to move back into the first to get him. IIRC

so the elusive 4 traded picks as fools gold

some think if something is repeated enough it will become true.

[Lonestar]

Yea, you missed a lot. The loss of Marshall, Hillis, etc. All talent that had to be re-addressed when it shouldnt have come to that.

Where they on the team in 09, y'all keep saying that he dismantled the team in the offseason of 09 which is incorrect.

He gave those players a chance to play and prove themselves in the first season. They failed to contribute when in practice or in games except for perhaps marshall and I know of very few if any that thought keeping marshall was a GREAT idea considering his mental status and money status.

Where they gone in 10 sure they were and except for Hillis which was at the time of the trade he was NO sure thing.. Almost everyone I repeat everyone thought getting rid of Simms and getting Quinn as a replacement for Hillis was a good deal.

You can probably count on 2 hands the number of hillis fans on this forum maybe even one hand until he started to rack up the yards in CLE.


hindsight is almost always perfect.

[Ravage!!!]

Where they on the team in 09, y'all keep saying that he dismantled the team in the offseason of 09 which is incorrect.

He gave those players a chance to play and prove themselves in the first season. They failed to contribute when in practice or in games except for perhaps marshall and I know of very few if any that thought keeping marshall was a GREAT idea considering his mental status and money status.

Where they gone in 10 sure they were and except for Hillis which was at the time of the trade he was NO sure thing.. Almost everyone I repeat everyone thought getting rid of Simms and getting Quinn as a replacement for Hillis was a good deal.

You can probably count on 2 hands the number of hillis fans on this forum maybe even one hand until he started to rack up the yards in CLE.


hindsight is almost always perfect.


Except there were TONS of fans that saw the dismantling as it was happening, other than those that chose to 'believe' in McD and his "vision." A lot of people could simply see the exodus of talent that was shoved out the door... some of the most TALENTED players this franchise has ever had.

Believe me... NOT everyone thought the HIllis trade was a good one. I can tell you the ones that tried to tell us that Hillis was "JUST" a 7th round FB.

Just becuse YOUR memory serves your point, and you don't remember people complaining about the shipping of Cutler, Marshall, Scheffler, and Hillis away.... doesn't make it fact. Just because the few people you know, didn't open their eyes and watch the young pro-bowlers and top coaches, being spurned away by McD, doesn't mean you have a valid point.

Also.. there is NEVER "extra" picks when a team is needign as much as we do. How do you figure we just had "extra" draft choices to toss around and spend on one player? You talk about people saying things enough times to believe it... thats it. Spending a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th to obtain a 1st... the you spend the first. Thats like giving a kid 3 quarters for his 1 dollar bill, and then spending the dollar bill. In the end, you still spent 4 quarters.

[Northman]

Where they on the team in 09, y'all keep saying that he dismantled the team in the offseason of 09 which is incorrect.

He gave those players a chance to play and prove themselves in the first season. They failed to contribute when in practice or in games except for perhaps marshall and I know of very few if any that thought keeping marshall was a GREAT idea considering his mental status and money status.

Where they gone in 10 sure they were and except for Hillis which was at the time of the trade he was NO sure thing.. Almost everyone I repeat everyone thought getting rid of Simms and getting Quinn as a replacement for Hillis was a good deal.

You can probably count on 2 hands the number of hillis fans on this forum maybe even one hand until he started to rack up the yards in CLE.


hindsight is almost always perfect.


I was never talking just about the 09' season for myself when it comes to the talent he got rid of. And i always thougth that Hillis had potential (mainly at FB) to be a baller from what i saw him do previously with Shanahan. Marshall was a headcase but still came to play on gameday. Funny thing is, McD was just as much a headcase as they were and it proved to be true when other players admitted he wasnt very good with them on that level. And then of course the issues with the coaching staff. Did i think that getting rid of Simms was a good idea? Yep. Did i think Quinn would work out here? Yep. But not at the expense of getting rid of Hillis especially when the running game needed serious help and depth instead of the retreads that McD tried to drag out there. I know you will never change your stance on McD so i no longer try to convince you but there is no way another coach comes here in 09' and pulls those trades. No way.

[rationalfan]

I can go on and on I'm sure, McDumbass literally blew this team up. Not rebuilt, blew it up. Destroyed it.

true. but i'm of the mindset the team needed to be blown up. shanahan's squad wasn't a few good defensive players from the playoffs. my opinion: the egos and identities of that squad clashed with each other too often and in a negative way. it never felt like a true "team." that's why it needed to be dismantled and a new culture created.

mcd was on the right track. he didn't succeed, but he was on the right track. that 6-0 team last year was the first broncos squad in years that felt like they were fighting FOR each other, rather than for personal glory. i miss that. i also miss victories.

[Ravage!!!]

The offense was fine, and were friends, before McD talked this "everyone else is a headcase" trip that so many bought into. What separated this locker room was McD getting rid of people and simply bringing in players from the Patriots. you think the team bought into his crap after watching how he treated people? They didn't. When you have a coach trading away your best talent, either in players, draft choices, or coaches.... they don't buy into the "you have us going in the right direction." McD never had us going in the right direction... unless you want to be going straight down.

That 6-0 team last year was a fluke, and if thats as long as this 'fighting for one another" lasts.. then thats a waste.

Cutler, Marshall, Scheff, Royal and Hillis.... were friends. Growing up on the team with one another. Working with one another in the offseason. Thats what I miss.

[Lonestar]

I was never talking just about the 09' season for myself when it comes to the talent he got rid of. And i always thougth that Hillis had potential (mainly at FB) to be a baller from what i saw him do previously with Shanahan. Marshall was a headcase but still came to play on gameday. Funny thing is, McD was just as much a headcase as they were and it proved to be true when other players admitted he wasnt very good with them on that level. And then of course the issues with the coaching staff. Did i think that getting rid of Simms was a good idea? Yep. Did i think Quinn would work out here? Yep. But not at the expense of getting rid of Hillis especially when the running game needed serious help and depth instead of the retreads that McD tried to drag out there. I know you will never change your stance on McD so i no longer try to convince you but there is no way another coach comes here in 09' and pulls those trades. No way.


Sorry I guess that I misread you post..


Originally Posted by Northman View Post
Yea, i did a nice bit of research on this a few weeks back. Out of all the QB's taken in just the last decade in the first round maybe 4 of them sat for more than one year. All the rest were starters from the get go. The constant talk of we are rebuilding by some fans on here is pretty hilarious. When this team was taken over it had already begun that process and then it was stripped down. For every team in the league that is TRULY rebuilding (i.e Detroit, St. Louis) those teams have their rookie QB's playing now building chemistry and getting them experience. If Denver was a playoff contender than yes, having a rookie QB sit on the bench is a great thing but we are not a contender so having Tebow sit is moronic.


As I said I was and am a Hillis fan, BUT I do not beleive it was Josh tath kept him off the field I firmly beleive that BT had control of the RB's both under Mike and Josh and taht he told them Hillis was not getting reps in practice becasue BT did not think he was ready.

Now why I have no idea: Because he did not fit into BT mold as a 215 pound RB, he was not "getting" the game plan (weekly change under Josh) or he was a white boy.

Hell maybe the rumors are true about Hillis hittin on the coaches wives.

All I know is he did not get onto the field much and when he did he did not handle it well.

As for the rest of it MOST posters have implied that Josh stripped the team of "offensive" talent the first year. When almost all of the 08 players were still with the team in 09.

Only after it was proved that they could not or DID not perform during the 09 season did they cut players,hillis, hamilton, casey, scheffler and marshall as the "headliners".

They all had a chance in 09 to perform and they failed excepting marshall and again we all know that he had to get out of town, or he would have been a half season suspension waiting to happen. and by his own admission his head was not right since Darrent was killed here.

Your correct I like Josh and the ideas he brought here, The rumors that were flying around about coaches and players are just that to me rumors.

Had Josh had a good relationship with the local press perhaps he would still be the HC. That was a mistake as far as I'm concerned. Had he been more friendly at the beginning of the regime who knows if they would have roasted him like they did in the end.

If I'm wrong about your post I'm sorry.

[Ravage!!!]

How is it these same playrs that "Failed" in '09 were the same one that excelled in '08, yet its the players that are now not "proving" their worth and deserved to be traded?

It wasn't his relationship with the media that made coaches come forth and talk about how badly McD treated people. It wasn't the relationship with the media that made Nolan bolt.

[The Glue Factory]

How is it these same playrs that "Failed" in '09 were the same one that excelled in '08, yet its the players that are now not "proving" their worth and deserved to be traded?

Um... Different coach, different scheme maybe?

McD didn't find much use out of a receiving TE (any receiving TE mind you) so Scheffler is traded. If coach isn't going to use a players particular talents it's in the best interest of EVERYONE to trade that player.

[Lonestar]

Um... Different coach, different scheme maybe?

McD didn't find much use out of a receiving TE (any receiving TE mind you) so Scheffler is traded. If coach isn't going to use a players particular talents it's in the best interest of EVERYONE to trade that player.

:salute:

An amazing concept getting rid of FOR draft choices for warm bodies that do not fit the needs of the club.

All in the while of sending them some place they all wanted to go. They could have all been sent to CIN or BUF .

I would think the fans of these players would commend the FO for accommodating them all.

[BroncoStud]

The offense was dead once Cutler for Orton took place. The numbers don't lie, the Broncos had a top 3 offense in 2008 and fell to middle of the pack, and fell to the bottom of the pack on conversion downs.

Once Cutler was gone, the offense was gone.

[TXBRONC]

I was never talking just about the 09' season for myself when it comes to the talent he got rid of. And i always thougth that Hillis had potential (mainly at FB) to be a baller from what i saw him do previously with Shanahan. Marshall was a headcase but still came to play on gameday. Funny thing is, McD was just as much a headcase as they were and it proved to be true when other players admitted he wasnt very good with them on that level. And then of course the issues with the coaching staff. Did i think that getting rid of Simms was a good idea? Yep. Did i think Quinn would work out here? Yep. But not at the expense of getting rid of Hillis especially when the running game needed serious help and depth instead of the retreads that McD tried to drag out there. I know you will never change your stance on McD so i no longer try to convince you but there is no way another coach comes here in 09' and pulls those trades. No way.

I said similar things myself. I understood why McDaniels made and on the surface it looked like a good trade but that come with caveat that assumes Quinn would actually challenge Orton of course that never materialized. But I finally got off the sauce when McDaniels came and gave his reasoning for shipping Hillis. When he said that he traded Hillis because he doesn't fit his system that was a big pile b.s. to me. When you claim you want a power running but give away a power running back something isn't right.

[Northman]

Um... Different coach, different scheme maybe?

McD didn't find much use out of a receiving TE (any receiving TE mind you) so Scheffler is traded. If coach isn't going to use a players particular talents it's in the best interest of EVERYONE to trade that player.

Unfortuantely, the scheme that McD used didnt work and turned out to be worse in the win column. But again, he's the only coach ive ever seen that cant use talented players like the ones he helped ship out of here.

[Northman]

I said similar things myself. I understood why McDaniels made and on the surface it looked like a good trade but that come with caveat that assumes Quinn would actually challenge Orton of course that never materialized. But I finally got off the sauce when McDaniels came and gave his reasoning for shipping Hillis. When he said that he traded Hillis because he doesn't fit his system that was a big pile b.s. to me. When you claim you want a power running but give away a power running back something isn't right.

There were a LOT of things that he did that dont make sense. And now after his firing a lot of it has come to light. Fact is, he was a failed experiment at a high cost to this organization.

[Lonestar]

The offense was dead once Cutler for Orton took place. The numbers don't lie, the Broncos had a top 3 offense in 2008 and fell to middle of the pack, and fell to the bottom of the pack on conversion downs.

Once Cutler was gone, the offense was gone.
actually it was a #2 offense in yards. MOST if not all where between teh 20's

IIRC it was about #17 in scoring..

and that included lots of Field goals. 34 to be exact.

http://www.nfl.com/players/mattprater/profile?id=PRA143616

Do you really believe that had jay stayed he would have embraced this new offense or just continue to force balls into double coverage?

I mean do you really believe?

I think he would have struggled just as much learning the scheme as Orton did. Just like the rest of the offense did.

Having a cannon arm means nothing if the WR are running the wrong routes.. About the only thing he may have excelled at was being able to scramble after the oline failed in pass protect.

I do not think jay is near the cerebral Qb that Orton is.

Having to hit the open man opposed to strong arming the ball into tight spot for the gusto. I just do not see jay liking that ..

MAybe Y'all do but no way your going to convince me he would have been any better than Orton could have been in this scheme.

[TXBRONC]

actually it was a #2 offense in yards. MOST if not all where between teh 20's

IIRC it was about #17 in scoring..

and that included lots of Field goals. 34 to be exact.

http://www.nfl.com/players/mattprater/profile?id=PRA143616

Do you really believe that had jay stayed he would have embraced this new offense or just continue to force balls into double coverage?

I mean do you really believe?

I think he would have struggled just as much learning the scheme as Orton did. Just like the rest of the offense did.

Having a cannon arm means nothing if the WR are running the wrong routes.. About the only thing he may have excelled at was being able to scramble after the oline failed in pass protect.

I do not think jay is near the cerebral Qb that Orton is.

Having to hit the open man opposed to strong arming the ball into tight spot for the gusto. I just do not see jay liking that ..

MAybe Y'all do but no way your going to convince me he would have been any better than Orton could have been in this scheme.

I would guess you didn't see or hear about the game at Arrowhead. All day long Orton threw the ball into double coverage, when the ball wasn't sailing on, or him throwing it into the dirt. Last week was no different. Orton isn't as accurate as you think and isn't as cerebral as some have made him out to be. Through out the year he's made dumb choices from time by throwing the ball into double coverage.

[robert ethan]

How is it these same playrs that "Failed" in '09 were the same one that excelled in '08, yet its the players that are now not "proving" their worth and deserved to be traded?

So, they "Failed" to an 8-8 record in '09, but "excelled" to an 8-8 record in '08? O.K.

[Ravage!!!]

So, they "Failed" to an 8-8 record in '09, but "excelled" to an 8-8 record in '08? O.K.

way to keep up with the conversation.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

If you have faith that Josh McDaniels of all people is right while mostly every scout and expert is wrong, then that's you.

And yet, you feel the way you do about Orton (who McDaniels brought in)? The guy the bears were so willing to get rid of they traded 2 first rounders, a 3rd rounder, and him to get a QB?

Isn't this the same guy who averaged a 37 QBR his last 2 games?

[claymore]

If you have faith that Josh McDaniels of all people is right while mostly every scout and expert is wrong, then that's you.

Man that kinda sinks my battleship. Thanks staples! :mad:

[nevcraw]

As I said in another post.

Mc Coy was lost calling plays last week many were late coming in to Orton which I suspect did not help him maintain composure.

Just think what that would do to Tebow whether he is "ready" or not.
The rumor is that he has virtually NO reps with the first teamers since TC so his timing with RB and espescialy wr is for crap. If any of that is true it would not help his development at all IMHO.Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

sure hurt John Skleton!?! or any other back up that has played this year..

and if he got rocked, would he lose his knowledge of the game? would his super powers be dimmed? would he forget how to run or throw? Gimme a break.

Botton line is the team felt he was good enough to beat out a former starting QB to be the back-up. if you are the back up then you are only 1 play away from the field so this crap about him not ready is just that.. crap.

[TXBRONC]

Um... Different coach, different scheme maybe?

McD didn't find much use out of a receiving TE (any receiving TE mind you) so Scheffler is traded. If coach isn't going to use a players particular talents it's in the best interest of EVERYONE to trade that player.

But then he traded for Gronkowski who is suppose to be a receiving tight end.

[BroncoStud]

actually it was a #2 offense in yards. MOST if not all where between teh 20's

IIRC it was about #17 in scoring..

and that included lots of Field goals. 34 to be exact.

http://www.nfl.com/players/mattprater/profile?id=PRA143616

Do you really believe that had jay stayed he would have embraced this new offense or just continue to force balls into double coverage?

I mean do you really believe?

I think he would have struggled just as much learning the scheme as Orton did. Just like the rest of the offense did.

Having a cannon arm means nothing if the WR are running the wrong routes.. About the only thing he may have excelled at was being able to scramble after the oline failed in pass protect.

I do not think jay is near the cerebral Qb that Orton is.

Having to hit the open man opposed to strong arming the ball into tight spot for the gusto. I just do not see jay liking that ..

MAybe Y'all do but no way your going to convince me he would have been any better than Orton could have been in this scheme.

Cutler would have been better than Orton, Cutler is better than Orton right now, he was in 2008, he would have been in 2009. The Denver Cutler-led offenses moved the ball at will but struggled in the redzone just like we do now.

I really don't think Cutler was a long-term solution either but he is certainly better than Orton ever will be. If Tebow turns out to be the real deal or if we luck into Luck, and he turns out to be the real deal, then the Cutler trade and 2 years of watching Orton bore us to death with his noodle will have been worth it.

As it stands I am just sick and tired of watching Orton be mediocre. I cannot stand his total lack of athleticism. It's almost an insult to the position he has as a starting QB for the Denver Broncos. This 2 year reign of horror can't end soon enough for me.

[Superchop 7]

Well, it seems to me that you either have a top flight QB to get to the Superbowl.....or a helluva defense.

We spent a first rounder, I'm done drafting QB's.

IMO

FIX THE OTHER SIDE OF THE BALL !!!!!

[cuzz4169]

Denver IS NOT gonna trade Tebow...The kid is one of the most marketable athletes in sports...as soon as he is named the starter lookout. Pat Bowlens eyes $ $. Don't be surprised if Denver is asked to do hard knocks next year bc of Tebow. Even if he starts the last 2 games and struggles Denver will still not trade him...He is not going anywhere.

[Cugel]

Think we will know more in the next 2 months.

depends on who is the GM and then who is the next coach.

It wouldnt be a shocker to have a new coach come in and trade away a first round QB before ever working with him.

It will have been 2 years, gotta be time to change the sheets right, right???

BINGO! We have a winner! First post in this thread to make sense!

Look, generally in the NFL a New Coach and a NEW GM means a NEW QB. We saw it with McDaniels.

The coach is under intense pressure to win quickly, especially when the team went 3-13 and the fans are enraged. He isn't willing to stake his career on somebody else's choice for QB unless the guy has a long-term proven record as a starter.

Sometimes not even then. :coffee:

Think about McDaniels and Cutler! WHY was McDaniels so eager to get rid of Cutler? Even if you grant that Cassel is better than Cutler (doesn't appear so so far in their careers), then it's STILL a risk.

Why take it when the guy you've got is good enough?

ANSWER: New coach wants new QB. All the time. :coffee:

They just want "their players". Every new coach has ZERO commitment to the players he inherited from the old coach. If they were so great, then his predecessor would still have a job!

Normally, he's a lot smarter than McDaniels was and a lot less arrogant, so he'll generally keep the more successful ones.

But, QB is different. They virtually ALL want a change at QB. Seems to be something that goes to their heads when they get the chance to be head-coach for the first time.

So, don't be surprised if the new coach gets rid of Tebow without giving him a chance. And then the OTHER 1/2 of the fan base will be up in arms. A smarter move would be to keep him and draft someone like Luck if they can. Start Tebow for a season and see how he can do.

If you have a QB controversy then FINE! That means you have TWO good QBS like the Chargers did with Rivers & Brees! That's a hell of a good "problem" to have! You can always trade one of them. :coffee:

[I Eat Staples]

We did not trade 4 picks for him Josh packaged the extra #2, 3 and 4 four we got from moving around on draft day to move back into the first to get him. IIRC

so the elusive 4 traded picks as fools gold

some think if something is repeated enough it will become true.

So because McDaniels acquired the picks and then traded them to draft Tebow, he somehow didn't spend them or trade them? What then, may I ask you, did he do with them?

According to your flawed logic, if someone gives me $100 and I purchase an item for $100, I did not spend $100.

[cuzz4169]

QB is not a position you trade away without seeing what one has.

[Cugel]

Denver IS NOT gonna trade Tebow...The kid is one of the most marketable athletes in sports...as soon as he is named the starter lookout. Pat Bowlens eyes $ $. Don't be surprised if Denver is asked to do hard knocks next year bc of Tebow. Even if he starts the last 2 games and struggles Denver will still not trade him...He is not going anywhere.

Pat is NOT going to overrule his GM and new coach. If they decide to get rid of Tebow, just the way McDaniels decided to get rid of Cutler, then fine. It just better work out, that's all!

Remember that Cutler had PROVEN himself with 3 seasons in the league and going to the Pro-Bowl and Bowlen STILL was prepared to trade him because McDaniels didn't want him!

Tebow has proven NOTHING. By comparison it will be an EASY decision.

All that has to happen is for the new GM and Coach to go to Pat and Joe Ellis and say: "we've evaluated Tim's skills based on looking at his practices and we just don't think he's the long-term answer. Josh probably made a mistake with him, just as he did with a number of other picks. We have a chance to get Luck and we want to use that pick to do it. We can probably get a 2nd or 3rd round pick for Tebow and use it to trade up if necessary to get Luck."

Think that can't happen? Think again! :coffee:

[Cugel]

QB is not a position you trade away without seeing what one has.

Wrong. :coffee:

Look. A NEW coach & GM have to get things right from the start. They have to evaluate the talent on the roster and decide who they want to keep and who they want to get rid of. They have to start out and decide whether they think Tebow is the answer or not.

If they look at the practice film of Tebow and perhaps a couple of games footage, and decide he's not the answer, then they WILL trade him whether the fans like it or not.

Just like McDaniels traded Cutler, who was a VASTLY better proven player when he was traded than Tebow is at this point.

Look, YOU may not like it, but lots of fans didn't like the decision to trade Cutler.

But, when the team went 6-0 how many were screaming! "We were right! Good riddance to Cutler Cry-Baby! Whoo! Hoo!"

As long as the team wins, there will be NO PROBLEMS with trading away Tebow. And if they lose, well, they were expected to lose anyway. It's not like in 2009 when the team had just gone 8-8.

And it's rather unlikely that another team really wants Tebow as their starting QB anyway. He was NOT considered a 1st round talent by MOST NFL GMs. So, it's not likely he'll just travel to another team and start lighting the league on fire. He'll probably have a struggle just to win a starting job and it may take a while if he ever does.

A lot of draft experts questioned that decision and they MIGHT BE RIGHT! :coffee:

At least Tebow would probably have to come in and compete with some other QBs for a starting job. Nobody's going to just hand him the job.

Once the guy who drafted you is GONE, there's just ZERO commitment to his draft picks. His draft picks got him fired. Most of them will go. Tebow MIGHT be one of them. Don't be surprised if he is. :coffee:

[cuzz4169]

Wrong. :coffee:

Look. A NEW coach & GM have to get things right from the start. They have to evaluate the talent on the roster and decide who they want to keep and who they want to get rid of. They have to start out and decide whether they think Tebow is the answer or not.

If they look at the practice film of Tebow and perhaps a couple of games footage, and decide he's not the answer, then they WILL trade him whether the fans like it or not.

Just like McDaniels traded Cutler, who was a VASTLY better proven player when he was traded than Tebow is at this point.

Look, YOU may not like it, but lots of fans didn't like the decision to trade Cutler.

But, when the team went 6-0 how many were screaming! "We were right! Good riddance to Cutler Cry-Baby! Whoo! Hoo!"

As long as the team wins, there will be NO PROBLEMS with trading away Tebow. And if they lose, well, they were expected to lose anyway. It's not like in 2009 when the team had just gone 8-8.

And it's rather unlikely that another team really wants Tebow as their starting QB anyway. He was NOT considered a 1st round talent by MOST NFL GMs. So, it's not likely he'll just travel to another team and start lighting the league on fire. He'll probably have a struggle just to win a starting job and it may take a while if he ever does.

A lot of draft experts questioned that decision and they MIGHT BE RIGHT! :coffee:

At least Tebow would probably have to come in and compete with some other QBs for a starting job. Nobody's going to just hand him the job.

Once the guy who drafted you is GONE, there's just ZERO commitment to his draft picks. His draft picks got him fired. Most of them will go. Tebow MIGHT be one of them. Don't be surprised if he is. :coffee:

Sorry I disagree...Cutler was a completely different situation he wanted out. Tebow is a different person..player..marketing..than almost anyone ever in professional sports.

I don't care what draft experts or other GMs say those same experts and GMs had jamarcus russell as a can't miss prospect. Those guys miss more than they hit...trust me. I'm an assistant for a college baseball team and I'm friends with a few pro scouts.
We can both evaluate a player, his different skill sets 1-5 and our evaluation cards could be completely different..It's all opinion and how you evaluate players.

I do agree with you they have to evaluate the talent on the roster but rookie players are tough to trade or cut after one year...If you do that you get fired 23months later. QB is a lot harder to evaluate as a rookie especially if you didn't play...There was a lot invested in this player...and this player will bring a lot to the organization off the field. sorry I don't see it happening with Tebow.

[cuzz4169]

Pat is NOT going to overrule his GM and new coach. If they decide to get rid of Tebow, just the way McDaniels decided to get rid of Cutler, then fine. It just better work out, that's all!


No but Elway will :elefant:

[I Eat Staples]

Sorry I disagree...Cutler was a completely different situation he wanted out.

Lol stopped reading after this misinformed sentence. He wanted out after McDaniels tried to trade him. Now you know.

[cuzz4169]

Lol stopped reading after this misinformed sentence. He wanted out after McDaniels tried to trade him. Now you know.

Was it EVER confirmed Mcdouche tried to trade him? I never heard anyone in the organization say they TRIED to trade Cutler.

[Cugel]

No but Elway will :elefant:
Elway is NOT going to be the GM or coach. He's already said that -- which means he WON'T be in charge of player personnel decisions. He's going to help Pat and Joe Ellis pick the coach and hopefully new GM. Beyond that it's unclear he'll have an ongoing role or what it will be. :coffee:

[cuzz4169]

Elway is NOT going to be the GM or coach. He's already said that -- which means he WON'T be in charge of player personnel decisions. He's going to help Pat and Joe Ellis pick the coach and hopefully new GM. Beyond that it's unclear he'll have an ongoing role or what it will be. :coffee:

I know that but I'm saying If your hall of fame QB comes and says keep a player and that player is a QB he's probably staying.

[Cugel]

Sorry I disagree...Cutler was a completely different situation he wanted out. Tebow is a different person..player..marketing..than almost anyone ever in professional sports.

I don't care what draft experts or other GMs say those same experts and GMs had jamarcus russell as a can't miss prospect. Those guys miss more than they hit...trust me. I'm an assistant for a college baseball team and I'm friends with a few pro scouts.

We can both evaluate a player, his different skill sets 1-5 and our evaluation cards could be completely different..It's all opinion and how you evaluate players.

I do agree with you they have to evaluate the talent on the roster but rookie players are tough to trade or cut after one year...If you do that you get fired 23months later. QB is a lot harder to evaluate as a rookie especially if you didn't play...There was a lot invested in this player...and this player will bring a lot to the organization off the field. sorry I don't see it happening with Tebow.

Virtually everything in this post is just wrong. :coffee:

I won't detail all the criticisms. But, if you think Cutler wanted out BEFORE McDaniels decided to trade him, or BEFORE McDaniels told him in no uncertain terms that his job security in Denver was essentially ZILCH, then you should go back and read all the hundreds of press articles and threads from that time which detailed all the deals and the reactions, etc.

There are plenty of fans here on these boards who retain an indelible memory of those events and how they unfolded. Apparently you aren't one of them. :coffee:

As for your argument about GMs being "hit of miss" evaluators, did you fail to realize that undercuts whatever was left of your argument? :coffee:

[Cugel]

I know that but I'm saying If your hall of fame QB comes and says keep a player and that player is a QB he's probably staying.

Elway ISN'T going to say that! He's NOT going to be in charge of player personnel. He's going to help find a new coach (and hopefully a GM but that's not clear).

He's NOT going to be evaluating film on potential draft picks, and he's NOT going to be responsible for what happens with the decision.

The GM and coach will make that call because their jobs will depend on getting it right. If they feel Tebow isn't they answer they will get rid of him.

Because the price for FAILING to get rid of him if they aren't convinced he is the answer is winding up like Brian Billick in Baltimore who kept insisting that Kyle Boller was the answer. :coffee:

[robert ethan]

Everyone seems to think deals are one way things. The "do we keep him or dump him" sort of viewpoint. But there are a lot of different factors in any deal beside one team or one coach's perspective. The player, the other team, a hole you need to fill on your team, budget, other players on the market from third teams, etc. etc.

To just look at the situation and try to judge if "Tebow is the answer", or "Tebow is not the answer", isn't realistic. It may be a case that the new coach likes him but feels he has bigger needs elsewhere. It may be a case than another team wants him so badly they can't turn the deal down. Or they want to move him but no one is offering anything. Or they covet a particular player, and the only way they get him (perhaps at the draft) is to give up Tebow. Or Tebow says look, the guy who brought me here is gone and I don't feel great about the people that are still here. I'll play as well as I can but my heart won't be in it 100%. Just saying.

[cuzz4169]

Virtually everything in this post is just wrong. :coffee:

I won't detail all the criticisms. But, if you think Cutler wanted out BEFORE McDaniels decided to trade him, or BEFORE McDaniels told him in no uncertain terms that his job security in Denver was essentially ZILCH, then you should go back and read all the hundreds of press articles and threads from that time which detailed all the deals and the reactions, etc.

There are plenty of fans here on these boards who retain an indelible memory of those events and how they unfolded. Apparently you aren't one of them. :coffee:

As for your argument about GMs being "hit of miss" evaluators, did you fail to realize that undercuts whatever was left of your argument? :coffee:

Why don't they hire you as the next GM?....What a second are you Ben Mcdaniels?! Show me where the Organization said they tried to trade Cutler. I remember josh and Mr. Bowlen both saying he's are QB...not we tried to trade him. Goodnight

[I Eat Staples]

Was it EVER confirmed Mcdouche tried to trade him? I never heard anyone in the organization say they TRIED to trade Cutler.

Yes. McDaniels was trying to set up a trade that would send Cutler somewhere (I forget where) and bring Cassell to Denver. Cutler found out that he was being shopped and demanded McD promise him that he won't be traded. McD wouldn't make him any promises, so Cutler put his house up for sale.

This isn't new news.

[EMB6903]

Lol stopped reading after this misinformed sentence. He wanted out after McDaniels tried to trade him. Now you know.

There were "rumors" that Cutler asked to be traded once Jeremy Bates was let go of which Im pretty sure was before The Goodmans were fired and the "trade offer" was leaked.

Who knows?

The one thing I did like about Mcdaniels ending up in Denver was exposing Cutler as a sensitive fraud who only cares about himself.

[I Eat Staples]

There were "rumors" that Cutler asked to be traded once Jeremy Bates was let go of which Im pretty sure was before The Goodmans were fired and the "trade offer" was leaked.

Who knows?

The one thing I did like about Mcdaniels ending up in Denver was exposing Cutler as a sensitive fraud who only cares about himself.

But he was a good QB. That's all that matters to me. I don't care about his personality or who he cares about as long as he helps us win games. Some may feel he didn't, but please don't use the misguided notion that every player has a set, predetermined character that effects how he will perform.

[EMB6903]

But he was a good QB. That's all that matters to me. I don't care about his personality or who he cares about as long as he helps us win games. Some may feel he didn't, but please don't use the misguided notion that every player has a set, predetermined character that effects how he will perform.

He was a good QB who could make every single throw you ask for. Watching Cutler throw that 15 yard dig or 10 yard out was a thing of beauty. He can absolutely sling it.

What I learned from being a fan of Jay Cutler is it takes more then physical talent to win in this league.... Preperation, leadership, mental toughness... the little things...

[I Eat Staples]

He was a good QB who could make every single throw you ask for. Watching Cutler throw that 15 yard dig or 10 yard out was a thing of beauty. He can absolutely sling it.

What I learned from being a fan of Jay Cutler is it takes more then physical talent to win in this league.... Preperation, leadership, mental toughness... the little things...

I completely understand your point, especially for QBs. But none of that stuff matters if the talent isn't there. You can get by with a lot of talent and no work ethic, although you won't ever be as good as you potentially could and that's extremely frustrating as a fan. But you absolutely cannot get by with a good work ethic and good character but not a lot of talent.

[cuzz4169]

But he was a good QB. That's all that matters to me. I don't care about his personality or who he cares about as long as he helps us win games. Some may feel he didn't, but please don't use the misguided notion that every player has a set, predetermined character that effects how he will perform.

Didn't you jump on my post bc I said he asked to be traded? My point is you cant use Cutler as an example of being traded as a QB to Tebow...bc Cutler asked to be traded. We all know the rumor that Denver tried to trade him. But the rumor before that was Cutler wanted to be traded if Denver didn't keep bates. My point is Denver never said that they tried to trade him Bowlen said they wanted him as the QB...He had a chance to stay but forced his way out by not returning Bowlens phone calls.

[EMB6903]

I completely understand your point, especially for QBs. But none of that stuff matters if the talent isn't there. You can get by with a lot of talent and no work ethic, although you won't ever be as good as you potentially could and that's extremely frustrating as a fan. But you absolutely cannot get by with a good work ethic and good character but not a lot of talent.

Kyle Orton is the least talented Quarterback on this roster and he managed to earn a contract extension while putting up impressive numbers.

[Sinthor]

I didn't like McDaniels much, although I was hoping he'd be successful (and therefore the team). However, my biggest fear since the video taping scandal seems to be coming true. What was that fear?

That with all the turmoil, a new head coach and GM, etc. Tebow will be jettisoned without even having a chance. After all, he's very polarizing. People "in the know" either think he'll be ok or that he has no business even being in the league. Can you imagine the irony of Tebow being the one GREAT decision that McDaniels ever made?

What if the Broncos dump him and he goes somewhere else where he is successful. Maybe even in our division? How tragic and ironic would it be if he went somewhere else and lit it up, only to return occasionally or maybe even twice a year to just TRASH the team that didn't even give him a shot? I really fear that.

Now certainly, we don't know if he'll make it or not. He looked pretty good for a rookie in pre-season though and with this guy's history I wouldn't bet against him. That's why I'm almost desperate for him to play THIS year. Hopefully he would show very well, well enough for a new regime to keep him and give him the start he deserves next year. In my mind the team needs to focus on defense first. Period. Tebow needs to start for at least a season unless he ends up playing like Jamarcus Russell consistently. I just don't see how a team could/would pass on a #1 or #2 overall draft pick QB if one's available though and there's no guarantee that Luck will make it in the NFL either or even that he'd be as good as Tebow! The Broncos could end up ditching Tebow and taking a super high paid rookie QB that busts. THEN how bad would it be if Tebow worked out somewhere else? We need to WIN these last three games or at least two so we can focus on defense without the temptation of another QB. Heck, with a good defense even Kyle has proven he can win a lot of games.

Anyway, that's what I'm afraid of, and we seem to keep drifting ever closer to that reality with this weird refusal of the Broncos to play Tebow even in blowout wins/losses or in situations where due to QB play, many other teams have already switched QB's- some more than once! The CARDINALS already yanked Derek Anderson for playing not as badly as Orton has and HE has MADE it to the pro bowl already once!

Another thing hit me just Sunday, watching the game. Usually when you have a young up and coming QB on a team and a veteran starter, you read all about what a great mentor the veteran is, see them all huddling on the sidelines looking at photos and talking, etc. I realized I don't think I've see that this year and I haven't read anything to that effect either.

Is something wrong? These guys don't get along or is Orton maybe of the attitude "I'm not going to help these guys (Tebow and/or Quinn) take my job!" ?? Or have I just missed this?

[vandammage13]

I didn't like McDaniels much, although I was hoping he'd be successful (and therefore the team). However, my biggest fear since the video taping scandal seems to be coming true. What was that fear?

That with all the turmoil, a new head coach and GM, etc. Tebow will be jettisoned without even having a chance. After all, he's very polarizing. People "in the know" either think he'll be ok or that he has no business even being in the league. Can you imagine the irony of Tebow being the one GREAT decision that McDaniels ever made?

What if the Broncos dump him and he goes somewhere else where he is successful. Maybe even in our division? How tragic and ironic would it be if he went somewhere else and lit it up, only to return occasionally or maybe even twice a year to just TRASH the team that didn't even give him a shot? I really fear that.

Now certainly, we don't know if he'll make it or not. He looked pretty good for a rookie in pre-season though and with this guy's history I wouldn't bet against him. That's why I'm almost desperate for him to play THIS year. Hopefully he would show very well, well enough for a new regime to keep him and give him the start he deserves next year. In my mind the team needs to focus on defense first. Period. Tebow needs to start for at least a season unless he ends up playing like Jamarcus Russell consistently. I just don't see how a team could/would pass on a #1 or #2 overall draft pick QB if one's available though and there's no guarantee that Luck will make it in the NFL either or even that he'd be as good as Tebow! The Broncos could end up ditching Tebow and taking a super high paid rookie QB that busts. THEN how bad would it be if Tebow worked out somewhere else? We need to WIN these last three games or at least two so we can focus on defense without the temptation of another QB. Heck, with a good defense even Kyle has proven he can win a lot of games.

Anyway, that's what I'm afraid of, and we seem to keep drifting ever closer to that reality with this weird refusal of the Broncos to play Tebow even in blowout wins/losses or in situations where due to QB play, many other teams have already switched QB's- some more than once! The CARDINALS already yanked Derek Anderson for playing not as badly as Orton has and HE has MADE it to the pro bowl already once!

Another thing hit me just Sunday, watching the game. Usually when you have a young up and coming QB on a team and a veteran starter, you read all about what a great mentor the veteran is, see them all huddling on the sidelines looking at photos and talking, etc. I realized I don't think I've see that this year and I haven't read anything to that effect either.

Is something wrong? These guys don't get along or is Orton maybe of the attitude "I'm not going to help these guys (Tebow and/or Quinn) take my job!" ?? Or have I just missed this?

You already posted this exact short story in another thread.....You must be really proud of it.

[ydave77]

You already posted this exact short story in another thread.....You must be really proud of it.

Good job welcoming a new poster :welcome:

[Ravage!!!]

I didn't like McDaniels much, although I was hoping he'd be successful (and therefore the team). However, my biggest fear since the video taping scandal seems to be coming true. What was that fear?

That with all the turmoil, a new head coach and GM, etc. Tebow will be jettisoned without even having a chance. After all, he's very polarizing. People "in the know" either think he'll be ok or that he has no business even being in the league. Can you imagine the irony of Tebow being the one GREAT decision that McDaniels ever made?

What if the Broncos dump him and he goes somewhere else where he is successful. Maybe even in our division? How tragic and ironic would it be if he went somewhere else and lit it up, only to return occasionally or maybe even twice a year to just TRASH the team that didn't even give him a shot? I really fear that.

Now certainly, we don't know if he'll make it or not. He looked pretty good for a rookie in pre-season though and with this guy's history I wouldn't bet against him. That's why I'm almost desperate for him to play THIS year. Hopefully he would show very well, well enough for a new regime to keep him and give him the start he deserves next year. In my mind the team needs to focus on defense first. Period. Tebow needs to start for at least a season unless he ends up playing like Jamarcus Russell consistently. I just don't see how a team could/would pass on a #1 or #2 overall draft pick QB if one's available though and there's no guarantee that Luck will make it in the NFL either or even that he'd be as good as Tebow! The Broncos could end up ditching Tebow and taking a super high paid rookie QB that busts. THEN how bad would it be if Tebow worked out somewhere else? We need to WIN these last three games or at least two so we can focus on defense without the temptation of another QB. Heck, with a good defense even Kyle has proven he can win a lot of games.

Anyway, that's what I'm afraid of, and we seem to keep drifting ever closer to that reality with this weird refusal of the Broncos to play Tebow even in blowout wins/losses or in situations where due to QB play, many other teams have already switched QB's- some more than once! The CARDINALS already yanked Derek Anderson for playing not as badly as Orton has and HE has MADE it to the pro bowl already once!

Another thing hit me just Sunday, watching the game. Usually when you have a young up and coming QB on a team and a veteran starter, you read all about what a great mentor the veteran is, see them all huddling on the sidelines looking at photos and talking, etc. I realized I don't think I've see that this year and I haven't read anything to that effect either.

Is something wrong? These guys don't get along or is Orton maybe of the attitude "I'm not going to help these guys (Tebow and/or Quinn) take my job!" ?? Or have I just missed this?


The odds are really high against him being traded, although I think its pretty telling that Orton is still the starter. To me, it tells me that (as of right now) the FO is planning on starting Orton next season. I guess, at least it plans on having an open competition for the starter.

I think its a quandry for the Fo. Can they go BACK to Orton after making Tebow the starter? Will the starting of Tebow help or hinder bringing in a new coach? How will this hurt value, help value, help ticket sales. For if we don't start him now, the anticipation of seeing him next season could sell tickets.

However .. if he IS traded.. he wont be traded within the division. We certainly are not going to trade Tebow to the Raiders, and the Chiefs/chargers both have their QB.

Welcome to the boards. :beer:

[Ravage!!!]

Kyle Orton is the least talented Quarterback on this roster and he managed to earn a contract extension while putting up impressive numbers.

but... not so much in the wins.

[BroncoNut]

I think you make a good point Petey. it makes no sense to me at all. It would be stupid, and Tebow may very well be the answer to the position. Another reason to play the man now.

[TXBRONC]

I think you make a good point Petey. it makes no sense to me at all. It would be stupid, and Tebow may very well be the answer to the position. Another reason to play the man now.

Keeping Tebow off the field especially in blowout wins and loses is curious but I'm not sure it's really telling of anything other than both coaches want to stick with Orton at least for the time being. My gut feeling is that their waiting to start him until we start the December 26th.

[I Eat Staples]

Didn't you jump on my post bc I said he asked to be traded? My point is you cant use Cutler as an example of being traded as a QB to Tebow...bc Cutler asked to be traded. We all know the rumor that Denver tried to trade him. But the rumor before that was Cutler wanted to be traded if Denver didn't keep bates. My point is Denver never said that they tried to trade him Bowlen said they wanted him as the QB...He had a chance to stay but forced his way out by not returning Bowlens phone calls.

Well that wasn't the point, in the post you quoted I was just responding to someone who said they wouldn't want a QB with Cutler's character. And McDaniels tried to trade Cutler before Cutler ever asked.


Kyle Orton is the least talented Quarterback on this roster and he managed to earn a contract extension while putting up impressive numbers.

He's a smart QB. I happen to really like Orton's work ethic on top of it, but Orton is able to succeed because of his head.

[cuzz4169]

Well that wasn't the point, in the post you quoted I was just responding to someone who said they wouldn't want a QB with Cutler's character. And McDaniels tried to trade Cutler before Cutler ever asked.

Wrong

[I Eat Staples]

Wrong

Prove it?

[cuzz4169]

Prove it?

Doesn't matter believe what you want. :salute:

[I Eat Staples]

Doesn't matter believe what you want. :salute:

Okay.

[BroncoNut]

guys, c'mon. We're all fans here

[Northman]

guys, c'mon. We're all fans here

Yea! Tell em Nut! Slacker.

[jhildebrand]

Wrong

How is that wrong? :confused: And how does the idea that McD wasn't shopping him continue to persist?

It was made very clear the Broncos were listening to offers as early as the combine-February! I don't recall Cutler asking to be traded until the very end after the second face to face meeting went terribly wrong.

[TXBRONC]

How is that wrong? :confused: And how does the idea that McD wasn't shopping him continue to persist?

It was made very clear the Broncos were listening to offers as early as the combine-February! I don't recall Cutler asking to be traded until the very end after the second face to face meeting went terribly wrong.

Cutler might have stayed had McDaniels handled that situation better than he did. :tsk:

[I Eat Staples]

How is that wrong? :confused: And how does the idea that McD wasn't shopping him continue to persist?

It was made very clear the Broncos were listening to offers as early as the combine-February! I don't recall Cutler asking to be traded until the very end after the second face to face meeting went terribly wrong.

This.


Cutler might have stayed had McDaniels handled that situation better than he did.

And this.

[Cugel]

The odds are really high against him being traded, although I think its pretty telling that Orton is still the starter. To me, it tells me that (as of right now) the FO is planning on starting Orton next season. I guess, at least it plans on having an open competition for the starter.

I think its a quandry for the Fo. Can they go BACK to Orton after making Tebow the starter? Will the starting of Tebow help or hinder bringing in a new coach? How will this hurt value, help value, help ticket sales. For if we don't start him now, the anticipation of seeing him next season could sell tickets.

However .. if he IS traded.. he wont be traded within the division. We certainly are not going to trade Tebow to the Raiders, and the Chiefs/chargers both have their QB.

There won't be any problem with Orton. He's lucky to have a starting job! What other team wants to bring him in and have him be their franchise QB?

*crickets* :coffee:

He'll start or sit on the bench and be glad he's drawing a huge paycheck. If he whines he'll be told to S T F U!

If he were traded he'd wind up being a backup somewhere else when some other team drafted THEIR franchise QB.

I don't think anybody in the league at this point thinks of Kyle Orton as a potential SB winning QB.

And if not, then why bother? You just keep looking.

As for Tebow being traded. That will depend on what the new coach and GM think about his future. My guess is that they won't get the chance for Luck anyway.

Thus they're taking a chance with the 2nd best QB. Or Tebow.

Right now there's an INSANE amount of fan expectation that Tebow will be great somehow. I don't know why anybody would think that when virtually NO NFL GMs think so, but the homers just jump from one hope to another.

Tebow COULD pan out -- but that would be the FIRST McDaniels decision that ever did. So, I'm not holding my breath that the man who was DEAD WRONG about everything else was right about Tebow. :coffee:

[Sinthor]

Appreciate the welcomes. Sorry about the double posting as well. Had several tabs open and wrote that and THOUGHT I posted it but didn't see it go up. So I assumed I hadn't posted it. Obviously, I got crossed up between the tabs. In any case, thanks for the answers and welcomes.

I guess finding out about how the backups haven't done work with the 1st teams and the game plans, etc. all year pretty much answered my question about the QB's not seeming to work together and be in a position to mentor each other. With one set of guys (the backups) just working on the general playbook with 2nd & 3rd teams and only the starter working with the 1st team and going over each week's game plan, not a whole lot of reason for them to be huddled up.

I'd STILL like to know if that's common practice in the league or very unusual. I've never heard or read of that kind of a situation, but I'm obviously not in the football industry.