Tebow asked Ellis if he was done in Denver?

[Lancane]

According to an article by Woody Paige; All we are saying is give Tebow a chance.


Tim Tebow's run was the Broncos' longest and best of the Broncos' longest and second-worst day of the season.


It also was Tebow's only rush of the game. He threw a few passes . . . on the sideline late in the third quarter after Kyle Orton injured his ribs.


For the second time in three weeks, the Broncos were humiliated by a rookie quarterback. But the Broncos' rookie quarterback didn't draw a business breath.


Then I asked how he would feel if he doesn't play in the remaining three games.

Get ready for some serious controversy.

"It would be a lost opportunity," Tebow said.


A lost opportunity for him? For the Broncos? For interim coach Eric Studesville? For the multitude of Broncos' and Tebow fans? For his detractors? For Pat Bowlen?

A lost opportunity forever?


A couple of days after Josh McDaniels was fired, Tebow politely requested a meeting with Broncos COO Joe Ellis and wanted to know if he would be "out" too.


In the conversation with Ellis, Tebow wondered aloud about his future with the Broncos — considering that McDaniels had swapped a fistful of draft choices to pick the quarterback. Tebow was told not to worry, to be patient.

Obviously, he does worry and he is patient. Could he be one-and-one in Denver?


The Broncos need to do that — go to Tebow.

Why not? Maybe because McDaniels never switched to Tebow in the earlier blowouts. Maybe Studesville was doing Tebow a favor by not throwing him to the birds.

Or maybe he has been ordered by those above him (Bowlen and Ellis) not to play Tebow. "He wouldn't make this decision on his own," asserted someone closely associated with the Broncos.


As a Broncos fan asked NFL commissioner Roger Goodell in London, "Why don't you have a mercy rule?"

Have mercy on the Broncos, commish. Cancel the remainder of the season.

Meanwhile, a discouraged Tebow just keeps on running toward uncertainty.

http://www.denverpost.com/paige/ci_16843834

This leaves room for doubt if nothing else has...

[Elevation inc]

there idiots to not play him, even the vets like champ want tebow to play......orton needs to go period!!!!!!

[Dirk]

I think they are idiots if they don't use the last 3 games to evaluate him. Give the new regime some film before heading into the draft. They should have sat Orton for the 2nd half of the Cardinals game and started evaluating.

I hope that they don't think Orton is the future. I like Orton a lot, but I know he isn't the answer.

[Lancane]

there idiots to not play him, even the vets like champ want tebow to play......orton needs to go period!!!!!!

You have to wonder what was said between Ellis and Tebow, the insecurity that's being mentioned and the fact that Tebow let the press know.


Then I asked how he would feel if he doesn't play in the remaining three games.

Get ready for some serious controversy.

"It would be a lost opportunity," Tebow said.

A lost opportunity for him? For the Broncos? For interim coach Eric Studesville? For the multitude of Broncos' and Tebow fans? For his detractors? For Pat Bowlen?

A lost opportunity forever?

That statement by Tebow seems to be from a quality young man who is always positive but right now is in doubt, at least let's see what the kid has before we really decide to ship him off. But, the team may hold off, if he plays like complete crap or get's hurt then he loses a lot of value...could this be a move to not damage a future trade? And who would want him, and then I though of Miami, the Florida Fans, how well he's beloved there, the wildcat offense they like to use and more...I could see him being traded to Miami in light of Henne's horrid play.

I just don't know what to think...

[Bosco]

Keeping him on the bench is the right move, but I can't say I blame him for being concerned about his future as I've had those same concerns since Josh was let go. I'm glad to see he brought it to Joe's attention though. Maybe they will give that a little thought when searching for their next coach.

[Lancane]

I think they are idiots if they don't use the last 3 games to evaluate him. Give the new regime some film before heading into the draft. They should have sat Orton for the 2nd half of the Cardinals game and started evaluating.

I hope that they don't think Orton is the future. I like Orton a lot, but I know he isn't the answer.

Right now we have the third overall pick? We may not be in the hunt for Luck or maybe we may be? Harbaugh to Denver?...I dunno, but we would be in a position to nab Mallett as well. Maybe Bowlen wants another young Elway, after all...John on his radio show the other day was asked if Luck was the next Elway, he stated he thought he was, that he was something special.

But, we saw Cutler traded...maybe Bowlen was never sold on the kid...leaves a lot of questions though.

[Lancane]

Keeping him on the bench is the right move, but I can't say I blame him for being concerned about his future as I've had those same concerns since Josh was let go. I'm glad to see he brought it to Joe's attention though. Maybe they will give that a little thought when searching for their next coach.

I thought about that Bosco, I really have...but the way he stated things...that's not usually Tebow's style.

And I know some will argue the money, he was given a five year, 33 million dollar deal with an 11 million dollar signing bonus, which besides this year if traded is not of our concern, but we've wasted money before, Shanahan was good at overpaying at times, which we shouldn't even go into...that's painful enough!

[Bosco]

I thought about that Bosco, I really have...but the way he stated things...that's not usually Tebow's style. I agree it's not really Tebow's style, but he strikes me as a fiercely loyal kind of guy. I also think he's smart enough to know that he had alot of work ahead of him to be ready for the pros, and dismissing the coach who is a well known developer of QBs and ran an offense he was comfortable with probably has him a little concerned about his future.

I personally think the work he did with Gruden and in 9 months or so with McDaniels probably laid a good foundation for him, but the Broncos shouldn't rest on those laurels if you ask me.

[Lancane]

I agree it's not really Tebow's style, but he strikes me as a fiercely loyal kind of guy. I also think he's smart enough to know that he had alot of work ahead of him to be ready for the pros, and dismissing the coach who is a well known developer of QBs and ran an offense he was comfortable with probably has him a little concerned about his future.

I personally think the work he did with Gruden and in 9 months or so with McDaniels probably laid a good foundation for him, but the Broncos shouldn't rest on those laurels if you ask me.

Look at everything though Bosco, all of it...does it make sense? I don't care what Champ Bailey says, we tend to forget that he's the consummate professional, remember Slowik was the best defensive coordinator he ever worked under, so was about three others! And Bailey seems to think he's done here as well it sounds like.

Studesville would have had to have called Bowlen and Ellis for permission to stick Tebow in? He's suppose to be the backup...is he not? Something stinks in Dove Valley. Maybe no one beyond McDaniels really believed in him? Maybe they didn't feel he was better then Quinn? Maybe he really is not ready and is a long-term project that the team doesn't want to deal with?

As I said, I don't know...but everything we're hearing seems to leave more and more questions.

[Bosco]

Who knows. Guess we'll have to see how it plays out, but I definitely have my concerns about Tebow too.

[silkamilkamonico]

IMHO, and I'm completely speculating, but this could be absolutely great news, or dreadful news.

First of all, I find it hard to believe they aren't playing him because "he isn't ready". That's complete rubbish (IMHO). I would be more inclined to think they are just being morons about the situation than that.

Second of all, maybe they want Luck. That's the good news.....no, great news!

..or are they buying into the Cam Newton hype? Does he have NFL hype (I don't know). That would be absolutely dreadful news.

If we somehow end up with Cam Newton, I will flip shit on this organization.

This is all just IMHO, ofcourse.

[SR]

IMHO, and I'm completely speculating, but this could be absolutely great news, or dreadful news.

First of all, I find it hard to believe they aren't playing him because "he isn't ready". That's complete rubbish (IMHO). I would be more inclined to think they are just being morons about the situation than that.

Second of all, maybe they want Luck. That's the good news.....no, great news!

..or are they buying into the Cam Newton hype? Does he have NFL hype (I don't know). That would be absolutely dreadful news.

If we somehow end up with Cam Newton, I will flip shit on this organization.

This is all just IMHO, ofcourse.

I agree with that 100%. I don't buy in to all the conspiracy stuff about the back door wheeling and dealing that's going on with the team. I may be blind, but I refuse to believe that my team is participating in that kind of shit and letting it happen. I think the coaching staff has to give Tebow some serious consideration to play this week. I know a lot of Broncos fans who, as sad and awful as it sounds, hope Orton doesn't come back in after he takes a hit or gets sacked.

And if Denver tried to draft Cam Newton I'd probably go apeshit.

[Dirk]

I agree with that 100%. I don't buy in to all the conspiracy stuff about the back door wheeling and dealing that's going on with the team. I may be blind, but I refuse to believe that my team is participating in that kind of shit and letting it happen. I think the coaching staff has to give Tebow some serious consideration to play this week. I know a lot of Broncos fans who, as sad and awful as it sounds, hope Orton doesn't come back in after he takes a hit or gets sacked.

And if Denver tried to draft Cam Newton I'd probably go apeshit.

I have no idea why they won't start him. Or give him some playing time. It's not like we have a shot at the playoffs. (queue Jim Mora video)

If indeed Tebow is done in Denver, then they better do whatever it takes to get Luck IMO. I don't care if the defense is the main priority. If they are not going into the future with Tebow, then they better go after a franchise QB in this draft.

But in all fairness to Tebow, The fans and to the new regime coming in. They need to find out what Tebow has to offer. To hell with possibly ruining Tebow's trade value if he sucks it up. We need to know.

[Bosco]

I have no idea why they won't start him. Or give him some playing time. It's not like we have a shot at the playoffs. (queue Jim Mora video) They aren't starting him because there is a very real concern on the effect it could have on his mechanics (something John Elway specifically agreed with when he was on Vic and Gary's show awhile back) and since the season is lost, any potential benefit is small.

I know alot of Denver fans want to take out their shiny new toy, but it's just not a good idea.

[Dirk]

They aren't starting him because there is a very real concern on the effect it could have on his mechanics (something John Elway specifically agreed with when he was on Vic and Gary's show awhile back) and since the season is lost, any potential benefit is small.

I know alot of Denver fans want to take out their shiny new toy, but it's just not a good idea.

I hear what you are saying and I understand completely.

But if they are scared that they will "ruin" Tebow by playing him now, he isn't going to be good later. He has had all season to work on his mechanics.

And yeah....I would like for the shiny new toy to get some playing time. Only for the sake of knowing what we have.

What I am thinking is after the last 2 games and the way Orton has played, Tebow should get some reps with the first team this week. If only to get ready for the Houston game at home.

[Lancane]

I have no idea why they won't start him. Or give him some playing time. It's not like we have a shot at the playoffs. (queue Jim Mora video)

If indeed Tebow is done in Denver, then they better do whatever it takes to get Luck IMO. I don't care if the defense is the main priority. If they are not going into the future with Tebow, then they better go after a franchise QB in this draft.

But in all fairness to Tebow, The fans and to the new regime coming in. They need to find out what Tebow has to offer. To hell with possibly ruining Tebow's trade value if he sucks it up. We need to know.

It could mean a lot of things...

However, if he's not the future, then this is a good year to find a replacement...the 2012 class is looking rather weak unless Berkley comes out, and this year could be bad if Luck and Mallett return for another year. But, it seems to me that the organization doesn't have the faith McDaniels did in Tebow.

[Dirk]

It could mean a lot of things...

However, if he's not the future, then this is a good year to find a replacement...the 2012 class is looking rather weak unless Berkley comes out, and this year could be bad if Luck and Mallett return for another year. But, it seems to me that the organization doesn't have the faith McDaniels did in Tebow.

Who knows? Hell McD wouldn't even play Tebow after the KC game. I understand why he stood by Orton because Orton had been playing lights. However Orton can't seem to put a game winning drive together unless someone tips a ball to Stokes. And Stokes is gone. :tsk:

[spikerman]

I'm really getting a sinking feeling in my gut about Tebow. If, after the last two weeks, the coaches still think Orton gives them a better chance to win than Tebow that leads me to believe that he is MUCH more of a project than we thought.

[Traveler]

I don't understand all the tak of getting rid of Tebow. The kid has a contract the guarantees him $11.25 million. Bowlen might well be paying three coaches- 2 former, one new- and possibly an entirely new coaching staff.

And some folk seemingly believe Bowlen's so well off financially that he can jettison Tebow and replace him with another QB to be selected in the top 5 picks of the draft.
What's that? Another 30-40 million in guaranteed money? Puhleeeeze!

Let Tebow begin next season as the Bronco starting Qb and learn on the job. Don't have him associated in any way with this crappy team.

[Dirk]

I don't understand all the tak of getting rid of Tebow. The kid has a contract the guarantees him $11.25 million. Bowlen might well be paying three coaches- 2 former, one new- and possibly an entirely new coaching staff.

And some folk seemingly believe Bowlen's so well off financially that he can jettison Tebow and replace him with another QB to be selected in the top 5 picks of the draft.
What's that? Another 30-40 million in guaranteed money? Puhleeeeze!

Let Tebow begin next season as the Bronco starting Qb and learn on the job. Don't have him associated in any way with this crappy team.

If indeed it is their plan for him to start and play all next season, I can agree with you. But I would still like to see him play this year. It will at least add a little excitement to the remaining 3 games.

[Lancane]

I don't understand all the tak of getting rid of Tebow. The kid has a contract the guarantees him $11.25 million. Bowlen might well be paying three coaches- 2 former, one new- and possibly an entirely new coaching staff.

And some folk seemingly believe Bowlen's so well off financially that he can jettison Tebow and replace him with another QB to be selected in the top 5 picks of the draft.
What's that? Another 30-40 million in guaranteed money? Puhleeeeze!

Let Tebow begin next season as the Bronco starting Qb and learn on the job. Don't have him associated in any way with this crappy team.

Traveler, coaching salaries nor the salaries of personnel other then that of players count against the cap. So the money owed to Shanahan and McDaniels, even Xanders and Ellis come from ownership, in this case Denver Broncos LTD which is owned and operated by Bowlen Sports, Inc. so in other words Pat Bowlen his family and the investors.

And Tebow's contract only would count against the cap if they released him, if he's traded the contract and money owed to him for the remainder of the contract are then picked up by the team that trades for him. And you forget all the high dollars we spent before Tebow...Walker, Lelie, Nash, O'Neil, George, Henry, Gardner. Plus you're forgetting that if we do cut him, then the remainder of guaranteed money will be divided over the next three years, so say it's 9 million it becomes 3 million a year for that three years. Tebow's contract is rather friendly in some terms.

But, you could be right about waiting till next year. What's disconcerting is that he asked Ellis about his job security and whatever he heard, it shook his confidence, whether he was told there would be no guarantees or what not, he was not his usual confident self and that is cause for concern when you put it into perspective.

[Tned]

And Tebow's contract only would count against the cap if they released him, if he's traded the contract and money owed to him for the remainder of the contract are then picked up by the team that trades for him. And you forget all the high dollars we spent before Tebow...Walker, Lelie, Nash, O'Neil, George, Henry, Gardner. Plus you're forgetting that if we do cut him, then the remainder of guaranteed money will be divided over the next three years, so say it's 9 million it becomes 3 million a year for that three years. Tebow's contract is rather friendly in some terms.



You're describing somethiong I've never heard of. Unless there is a specific change for this uncapped year, or you're assuming a change to the CBA, the way it actually works is:

If he's traded, all of the prorated money counts against the current cap.

IF he's cut, all of the prorated money counts against the current cap (or is split over two years, depending on when it's done).


In terms of cap, releasing and trading has the same effect, with the exception that if he is released after June 1st, the cap hit can be spread over two years (not sure if a trade after June 1st can also be spread).

[Lancane]

You're describing somethiong I've never heard of. Unless there is a specific change for this uncapped year, or you're assuming a change to the CBA, the way it actually works is:

If he's traded, all of the prorated money counts against the current cap.

IF he's cut, all of the prorated money counts against the current cap (or is split over two years, depending on when it's done).

In terms of cap, releasing and trading has the same effect, with the exception that if he is released after June 1st, the cap hit can be spread over two years (not sure if a trade after June 1st can also be spread).

It's actually two years, you were right Tned...the prorated can be spread over two years, no matter because it is an uncapped year I believe. So, he's due 11 million, means he received a little over 2 million already, so he's owed almost 9 million so it would be roughly 4.5 million over the next two years, but we would not have to pay his salary of 4.4 million a year or earned bonuses as part of the contract. I'm not sure what the difference would be if it was after June 1st, but they hope to have a new CBA in place before that time, so it would be likely done before then.

Anyways the point I was trying to make was that coaches and staff do not count against the cap, and that trading him wouldn't be the worst thing we'd have to endure if we traded him or cut him by chance, especially when you calculate the money we have wasted elsewhere.

[Tned]

It's actually two years, you were right Tned...the prorated can be spread over two years, no matter because it is an uncapped year I believe. So, he's due 11 million, means he received a little over 2 million already, so he's owed almost 9 million so it would be roughly 4.5 million over the next two years, but we would not have to pay his salary of 4.4 million a year or earned bonuses as part of the contract. I'm not sure what the difference would be if it was after June 1st, but they hope to have a new CBA in place before that time, so it would be likely done before then.

I think the big difference that you were trying to point out is not cap hit, but out of pocket money.

If he's released, the Broncos both have to pay the guaranteed money, and it will count against the cap.

If he's traded, the Broncos will have to count all of the pro-rated signing bonus against the cap, but any unpaid guaranteed money will transfer to the new team.

[GEM]

Orton looked like absolute horse shit yesterday and last week. I think they are saving Tebow for the home game to make sure the stands are filled. Without that, the stadium will look deserted.

[Dirk]

Orton looked like absolute horse shit yesterday and last week. I think they are saving Tebow for the home game to make sure the stands are filled. Without that, the stadium will look deserted.

Quite possible.

[Northman]

I think they are idiots if they don't use the last 3 games to evaluate him. Give the new regime some film before heading into the draft. They should have sat Orton for the 2nd half of the Cardinals game and started evaluating.

I hope that they don't think Orton is the future. I like Orton a lot, but I know he isn't the answer.

Pretty much spot on. I just dont get it. What is there to lose at this point? Just see what the guy has already. Its getting beyond ridiculous.

[Lancane]

Pretty much spot on. I just dont get it. What is there to lose at this point? Just see what the guy has already. Its getting beyond ridiculous.

If that is it, and that is an if at this point...who would you rather throw him in against, the brutal rivals in the Black Hole or at home against the Texans?

[Tned]

Orton looked like absolute horse shit yesterday and last week. I think they are saving Tebow for the home game to make sure the stands are filled. Without that, the stadium will look deserted.

Plus he would be going up against Houston's so/so defense.

[Dzone]

The Houston home game will be a good place to start. If we are getting pummeled in oakland I say put him in there

[pnbronco]

Orton looked like absolute horse shit yesterday and last week. I think they are saving Tebow for the home game to make sure the stands are filled. Without that, the stadium will look deserted.

I'm thinking that they put him in for the Texans to fill up the stands. Although as nuts as people go when the kid stands up IMO it would of made sense to stick his toe in the water more yesterday.

[TXBRONC]

Orton looked like absolute horse shit yesterday and last week. I think they are saving Tebow for the home game to make sure the stands are filled. Without that, the stadium will look deserted.

It still would have been to see Tebow get his feet wet. Our last possesion all Orton did was hand the ball off. Something is rotten in Denmark if Studesville wont even let Tebow do a few simple handoffs.

[BroncoStud]

They aren't starting him because there is a very real concern on the effect it could have on his mechanics (something John Elway specifically agreed with when he was on Vic and Gary's show awhile back) and since the season is lost, any potential benefit is small.

I know alot of Denver fans want to take out their shiny new toy, but it's just not a good idea.

Not a good idea? So with the draft coming up and Denver owning a very high pick, we still have NO IDEA how good or bad our "shiny new toy" QB is? Mechanics? Seriously?

Ok fine, if not Tebow put in Brady Quinn. Make a change, see what the newer players can do. We have PLENTY of gamefilm on Orton, we know how much he sucks under pressure, we know how feeble his athletic ability is. Evaluate Quinn, evaluate ALL the young players.

To go into this draft with no real evaluation of the young QBs on this roster would be absolute insanity and pretty much the dumbest situation possible. We used 4 picks to get Tebow last year and we don't even want to see if it was worth the move????

You've got to be kidding me trying to defend that rubbish.

[rocks]

Not a good idea? So with the draft coming up and Denver owning a very high pick, we still have NO IDEA how good or bad our "shiny new toy" QB is? Mechanics? Seriously?

Ok fine, if not Tebow put in Brady Quinn. Make a change, see what the newer players can do. We have PLENTY of gamefilm on Orton, we know how much he sucks under pressure, we know how feeble his athletic ability is. Evaluate Quinn, evaluate ALL the young players.

To go into this draft with no real evaluation of the young QBs on this roster would be absolute insanity and pretty much the dumbest situation possible. We used 4 picks to get Tebow last year and we don't even want to see if it was worth the move????

You've got to be kidding me trying to defend that rubbish.

I agree... Mechanics? You really think his "mechanics" are going to be hurt by playing in two games that mean nothing?

Get real man...

Tebow could literally do no worse than Orton. He has a freaking QB rating of a third grade pee-wee player.

[red98]

I agree... Mechanics? You really think his "mechanics" are going to be hurt by playing in two games that mean nothing?

Get real man...

Tebow could literally do no worse than Orton. He has a freaking QB rating of a third grade pee-wee player.

I agree. How does putting him in hurt his mechanics? He played in the pre-season did that hurt his mechanics?

We are basically playing 3 exhibition games. Tebow can't play in an exhibition game?

Something is not right here.

[lgenf]

I agree. How does putting him in hurt his mechanics? He played in the pre-season did that hurt his mechanics?

We are basically playing 3 exhibition games. Tebow can't play in an exhibition game?

Something is not right here.

that was the point I made in another post

we was good enough to push out there with limited training and put him against pre-season Defenses with our pre-season offense

why can't he get going with the first team O - it's not like the kid never played QB in his life and just joined the team, he's played QB all his life and is a gamer, he wins, he does things others can't, won't or are scared to.

Maybe it's just so McD doesn't look like he knew something no one else did - if they play TT and he plays well, maybe even wins a game or two out of the last three - does getting rid of McD before the end of year two of his project make the owner look stupid? that he wouldn't even give it the third year it needed?

[GEM]

Let me just say....I was cursing the tv to high heavens yesterday for Tebow to get it. Orton was called a quitting hunk of shit numerous times. I want Tebow in, but I think there are ulterior motives for him not going in. As I said before...I think it has more to do with filling up our stadium for the last 2 home games.

BTW....Orton is a quitting hunk of shit.

[honz]

Everyone in this thread needs to take a deep breath and calm the **** down.

[BroncoStud]

Everyone in this thread needs to take a deep breath and calm the **** down.

No we don't, we need our front office to stop sucking and to start making some sound decisions.

[GEM]

Everyone in this thread needs to take a deep breath and calm the **** down.

Honz, you have it backwards. We're all ok, you should get a bit more excited.

Look around you for anyone that is going to jump if you scream. Warn them in advance as to avoid being hit with a lawsuit. Take a deep breathe and scream....Damn you Broncos! Then go to the window, threaten to jump and then look at the person whose eyes are bulged out of their head and say...just kidding. :D

[Northman]

If that is it, and that is an if at this point...who would you rather throw him in against, the brutal rivals in the Black Hole or at home against the Texans?

Honestly, it doesnt matter. There's no real hope that the team will win anyway but if he is a baller we will find out. This continued concern that somehow Tebow will shatter by playing is just ridiculous. Either he is what he is supposed to be or he isnt. But i would like for this team to have some idea before going into the draft next year. If we need another QB i want to make sure the guy we have is garbage before going and drafting another one. We have so many needs and too waste a pick on Luck if we already have a guy is ******* moronic to 10th degree.

[CoachChaz]

One thing I enjoyed about psychology is studying the human brains ability to entertain itself. When a person is bored or has nothing else to do, it can take a simple scenario and blow it completely out of proportion, simply based on the fact that it isnt challenged by any other element.

Kind of like when Broncos fans with no hope for a post-season cant understand why Tebow isnt playing. I'm curious to see how many conspiracy theories rear their ugly heads between now and the time he gets to play. Should be fun.

[GEM]

One thing I enjoyed about psychology is studying the human brains ability to entertain itself. When a person is bored or has nothing else to do, it can take a simple scenario and blow it completely out of proportion, simply based on the fact that it isnt challenged by any other element.

Kind of like when Broncos fans with no hope for a post-season cant understand why Tebow isnt playing. I'm curious to see how many conspiracy theories rear their ugly heads between now and the time he gets to play. Should be fun.

Coach, head over to the Black Hole. The latest conspiracy is that the liberals are keeping Tebow off the field. :D

[I Eat Staples]

I'd be happy if Tebow was gone. Then we could hire a coach without the restriction of having to develop a gimmick QB.

As for Cam Newton, I feel the same way about him that I do about Tebow. He won't make it in the NFL.

[BroncoStud]

I'd be happy if Tebow was gone. Then we could hire a coach without the restriction of having to develop a gimmick QB.

As for Cam Newton, I feel the same way about him that I do about Tebow. He won't make it in the NFL.

Vick is a "gimmick QB" who is doing just fine in the NFL. I think Cam Newton is going to be a decent pro. I think Tebow is going to be a decent pro. Anyone who is willing to work hard and already has the necessary physical tools can succeed. Tebow has all the tools and he lives football and wants to win on a Peyton Manning competitive scale...

I think you guys sell Tebow too short. How can anyone condemn him before he plays a meaningful down? Mel Kiper said that Jimmy Clausen was the best QB in this draft at one point, and he looks HORRIBLE. He isn't 1/10th the competitor Tebow is.

Colt McCoy is a "gimmick QB" and he is by far the best QB on the Browns roster.

This isn't 1980. Spread offenses have made their way to the NFL, and as such so have spread QBs. People should have a more open mind to a guy who is willing to work harder than anyone and who wants to win more than anyone else. That's what separates the great from the good.

[tomjonesrocks]

I agree the only thing that makes sense as to why we did not see Tebow yesterday is fear that he would be unimpressive in the away games--and that fewer people would then show up for the home games because some of the hype and excitement would be spoiled.

If that's the case I think it's a *very* shortsighted view because the more Tebow plays the more information the team will have going into the draft.

I also don't think the last few weeks have helped Orton's trade value at all. We may have seen a 2nd or 3rd round pick for him if he'd been benched a couple weeks ago. He's killing his stats and QB rating right now. I think we just lost a round or two for him after yesterday's performance.

Just highly questionable thinking all around.

[I Eat Staples]

Vick is a "gimmick QB" who is doing just fine in the NFL.

Have you watched Vick at all? This entire year he's been mainly a pocket passer and only runs when he needs to. Not to mention you can't even compare Tebow to Vick athletically. Vick is faster and has more acceleration than Adrian Peterson.


I think Cam Newton is going to be a decent pro. I think Tebow is going to be a decent pro. Anyone who is willing to work hard and already has the necessary physical tools can succeed. Tebow has all the tools and he lives football and wants to win on a Peyton Manning competitive scale...

Tebow has amazing physical tools...just not for a QB. Same for Cam Newton.


I think you guys sell Tebow too short. How can anyone condemn him before he plays a meaningful down? Mel Kiper said that Jimmy Clausen was the best QB in this draft at one point, and he looks HORRIBLE. He isn't 1/10th the competitor Tebow is.

I also thought that Jimmy Clausen was the best QB in the draft, but I never thought he'd be very far above average. I felt this draft lacked any star QBs. The only player proving me wrong is Bradford.


Colt McCoy is a "gimmick QB" and he is by far the best QB on the Browns roster.

He's not a gimmick QB, and you're comparing him to a QB in Seneca Wallace that should be playing receiver and a QB in Jake Delhomme that should retire. McCoy looked okay in a few games, but what has he shown to make anyone think he can be anything more than average? He's a much better pro prospect than Tebow or Newton but I doubt he'll ever be more than average.


This isn't 1980. Spread offenses have made their way to the NFL, and as such so have spread QBs. People should have a more open mind to a guy who is willing to work harder than anyone and who wants to win more than anyone else. That's what separates the great from the good.

Work ethic doesn't mean shit compared to talent and ability. If me or you worked harder than everyone and wanted to win more than anyone we still wouldn't be NFL QBs. Now, if you think Tebow has the ability to be an NFL QB, we'll just have to disagree.

[BroncoStud]

Yeah, we're going to have to disagree. Mr. Joe Montana had an average arm, average legs, and an small-ish frame. What he didn't have physically he made up for mentally. He was 100% cool under pressure - the ANTI-Orton.

Those intangibles can be seen in guys like Tebow. The sheer will to win a game and carry your team to do it. Preseason (all we have to go on) has shown us that Tebow can pass accurately at the NFL level, he has a good NFL arm, he is very mobile, and he gets rid of the ball very quickly. I don't see a TE, I see a QB.

Vick was absolutely a "gimmick QB" coming out of college. He didn't throw a lot at Virginia Tech, in fact, he ran an option-based attack. He might be learing to be a pocket passer THIS YEAR, but during his time in Atlanta he was anything but. You can't overlook that when comparing him.

Randall Cunningham would be another good example. Good arm, fast legs, very athletic. He had a good NFL career. Another good comparison might be Roger Staubach, he ran the option in college yet he worked hard and had the intangibles to win at the NFL level.

Of all the former players in the NFL that made it, Staubach might be the best comparison to what Tebow offers.

[Lonestar]

Look at everything though Bosco, all of it...does it make sense? I don't care what Champ Bailey says, we tend to forget that he's the consummate professional, remember Slowik was the best defensive coordinator he ever worked under, so was about three others! And Bailey seems to think he's done here as well it sounds like.

Studesville would have had to have called Bowlen and Ellis for permission to stick Tebow in? He's suppose to be the backup...is he not? Something stinks in Dove Valley. Maybe no one beyond McDaniels really believed in him? Maybe they didn't feel he was better then Quinn? Maybe he really is not ready and is a long-term project that the team doesn't want to deal with?

As I said, I don't know...but everything we're hearing seems to leave more and more questions.

IIRC Champ said slowick was one of the best DB coach he had been under. Right after he was promoted to DC. It was NOT that he was the best DC.

But I might be wrong and it was said much later. I do not get all of the quote living where I do.

[Northman]

Have you watched Vick at all? This entire year he's been mainly a pocket passer and only runs when he needs to.

Yea, i agree. Vick isnt a gimmick but until this year he was always a run first type of QB. Even his passing was very average before going to jail. Since then though he has become a more complete QB.


McCoy looked okay in a few games, but what has he shown to make anyone think he can be anything more than average? He's a much better pro prospect than Tebow or Newton but I doubt he'll ever be more than average.

Silly arguement on your part here. Colt has only played in 5 games this year. That coming with a team still trying to find an identity and continue building for the future. I think Colt has shown some serious promise but my main concern for him is health. And this dates back to the Championship game in College.

[Lonestar]

I'm really getting a sinking feeling in my gut about Tebow. If, after the last two weeks, the coaches still think Orton gives them a better chance to win than Tebow that leads me to believe that he is MUCH more of a project than we thought.

FWIW. Not one source I'd seen had Tebow for anything less than a 2-3 year project.

Now everyone is pissed that he is not thrown to the wolves after 13 games.

Should he be getting some reps IMO yes should he get the starts just to destroy the progress he is making. IMO NO.

Especially if it is only to calm the impaicient in the stands or MOSTLY press area.

IIRC simms was the darling of everyone last year till he had to play. Then they had to rush Orton back into the line up before his ankles where quite ready.

While studs does not impress me whatsoever, I do not think he the one making a career making decision for a young QB.

In case no one has figured out this season is toast. A victory here or there is not going to make a bit of difference and playing some kiddies before their time will probably not make any difference either.

If you are going to play someone make it for the right reasons winning.
Not just to see your new toys before they are assmebled correctly yet.

[Dzone]

This begs the question:Is Tebow so obviously bad in practice that the coaching staff has NO Confidence in him? Do they know something we dont know?
I love Tebow and want him to play, but something smells fishy here

[arapaho2]

FWIW. Not one source I'd seen had Tebow for anything less than a 2-3 year project.

Now everyone is pissed that he is not thrown to the wolves after 13 games.

Should he be getting some reps IMO yes should he get the starts just to destroy the progress he is making. IMO NO.

Especially if it is only to calm the impaicient in the stands or MOSTLY press area.

IIRC simms was the darling of everyone last year till he had to play. Then they had to rush Orton back into the line up before his ankles where quite ready.

While studs does not impress me whatsoever, I do not think he the one making a career making decision for a young QB.

In case no one has figured out this season is toast. A victory here or there is not going to make a bit of difference and playing some kiddies before their time will probably not make any difference either.

If you are going to play someone make it for the right reasons winning.
Not just to see your new toys before they are assmebled correctly yet.


bull...there is a reason...the reason is we are going to draft top 5...we need to know if tebow is the answer or just another one of the mcd mistakes

[Dzone]

It still would have been to see Tebow get his feet wet. Our last possesion all Orton did was hand the ball off. Something is rotten in Denmark if Studesville wont even let Tebow do a few simple handoffs.

I agree. Something is very weird here

[jhildebrand]

This team has no choice but to find out what they have in Tebow IMHO!

You can't tell me and expect me to believe the kid isn't ready. If that is the case, McDaniels should have been fired for cause for drafting the kid in the first let alone throwing a 2, 3, and 4 at Baltimore to do it. In today's NFL even late round first picks are expected to contribute even for teams that were just in the Super Bowl. The bottom line is not playing Tebow does nothing for this team even in protecting trade value. This team paid such a steep cost I don't see them making even half of that back.

As for his mechanics, I don't worry about that either. I am not one to believe that he would have successfully and permanently changed them. It is hard for me to think of even one QB who has managed to completely alter their mechanics. Byron Leftwhich still has the long wind up, Rivers still has his goofy shot put, etc...

So at this point we need to find out if the kid is a winner here like he has been everywhere else, if he has the right stuff, if he can lead this team.

[BroncoStud]

Woody Paige nailed it, STUDS is coaching for some delusion he thinks he is going to possibly win a gig, he doesn't care about the Broncos future, he cares about his. It was a horrible idea to fire Josh and NOT tell the interim he is going to start Tebow, end of story.

Bowlen has got to step in here and see what is happening. Bowlen was at the game, he had to see how pathetic the Broncos offense was.

[jhildebrand]

FWIW. Not one source I'd seen had Tebow for anything less than a 2-3 year project.

Which still makes it bad! Its one thing to draft a 2-3 year project QB late in the first round if you have a QB. It's a wholly different deal to do it when you dont, when you have so many holes as all the McD proponents argued, and to throw a 2,3, and 4 into the mix.


Should he be getting some reps IMO yes should he get the starts just to destroy the progress he is making. IMO NO.


What progress? :confused: Do you really think he is progressing sitting on the sidelines? Jay Cutler, like him or hate him, showed progress once he was thrown in the fire. I would rather Tebow learn in live games that all but dont count than trash half of another season just to find out later.


IIRC simms was the darling of everyone last year till he had to play. Then they had to rush Orton back into the line up before his ankles where quite ready.

Simms was a vet. Simms was a FA. Simms was another financial disaster of McDaniels! NOt even apples to apples.



In case no one has figured out this season is toast. A victory here or there is not going to make a bit of difference and playing some kiddies before their time will probably not make any difference either.

If you are going to play someone make it for the right reasons winning.
Not just to see your new toys before they are assmebled correctly yet.

But at some point this team needs to truly assess where it stands so that it can build appropriately for the future. I don't see how you can do that without knowing what you truly have in Tebow.

[I Eat Staples]

Yeah, we're going to have to disagree. Mr. Joe Montana had an average arm, average legs, and an small-ish frame. What he didn't have physically he made up for mentally. He was 100% cool under pressure - the ANTI-Orton.

I completely agree, and I believe a QB's mind is just as important as, if not more important than his arm. That's actually one of my biggest concerns about Tebow, his intelligence and ability to read defenses.


Those intangibles can be seen in guys like Tebow. The sheer will to win a game and carry your team to do it. Preseason (all we have to go on) has shown us that Tebow can pass accurately at the NFL level, he has a good NFL arm, he is very mobile, and he gets rid of the ball very quickly. I don't see a TE, I see a QB.

Hard to judge in preseason, but he did look decent throwing the ball. He had quite a few inaccurate throws as well, though, and most of his success came against backups.


Vick was absolutely a "gimmick QB" coming out of college. He didn't throw a lot at Virginia Tech, in fact, he ran an option-based attack. He might be learing to be a pocket passer THIS YEAR, but during his time in Atlanta he was anything but. You can't overlook that when comparing him.

I completely agree, but this is the first year I've been impressed with Vick as more than just a fun player to watch.


Randall Cunningham would be another good example. Good arm, fast legs, very athletic. He had a good NFL career. Another good comparison might be Roger Staubach, he ran the option in college yet he worked hard and had the intangibles to win at the NFL level.

I don't know enough about Staubach to comment, but Randall Cunningham was more like Daunte Cullpepper or Donavan McNabb. He was athletic, but he could throw.

I feel like Tebow is a completely different type of QB than any of those players. Even his fans and supporters have acknowledged it, usually in a positive way. I just don't feel that it's a good thing when a team has to set up a game plan to adjust to a QB's skill set, and the chances of Tebow becoming an elite QB are extremely slim IMO.


Yea, i agree. Vick isnt a gimmick but until this year he was always a run first type of QB. Even his passing was very average before going to jail. Since then though he has become a more complete QB.

I completely agree, the Eagles' coaching staff has done a wonderful job with him. Either that or he had nothing else to do in jail but work on his mechanics.


Silly arguement on your part here. Colt has only played in 5 games this year. That coming with a team still trying to find an identity and continue building for the future. I think Colt has shown some serious promise but my main concern for him is health. And this dates back to the Championship game in College.

I know he has only played 5 games, that's why my projections for him are based almost entirely on how I felt about him entering the draft. I'm not calling him a bust, I just don't think he was even supposed to be that good. Like you said, he hasn't played enough to pass judgment on him, so what I don't understand are the people who are already claiming he's a great young QB. If that's your opinion, fine, but he hasn't proven anything on the field.

[vandammage13]

But at some point this team needs to truly assess where it stands so that it can build appropriately for the future. I don't see how you can do that without knowing what you truly have in Tebow.

The only problem is that the Broncos have waited so long to see what they have with Tebow, that 2 games(or even 3 if they unexpectedly decide to play him this week) is not really enough of a sample do decide if you can move on with him as your QB or need to get another QB.

This inept FO has painted themselves into a corner and now there isn't even enough time to evaluate Tim, even if he were to start this week. They wasted about 3 weeks IMHO by sticking with Orton. Tebow should have been starting after the SF loss in London, because in all honesty, we were way out of the playoff picture even at that point.

[horsepig]

Honestly, it doesnt matter. There's no real hope that the team will win anyway but if he is a baller we will find out. This continued concern that somehow Tebow will shatter by playing is just ridiculous. Either he is what he is supposed to be or he isnt. But i would like for this team to have some idea before going into the draft next year. If we need another QB i want to make sure the guy we have is garbage before going and drafting another one. We have so many needs and too waste a pick on Luck if we already have a guy is ******* moronic to 10th degree.

Can't say it any better North. And I've tried, a lot.

[jhildebrand]

The only problem is that the Broncos have waited so long to see what they have with Tebow, that 2 games(or even 3 if they unexpectedly decide to play him this week) is not really enough of a sample do decide if you can move on with him as your QB or need to get another QB.

This inept FO has painted themselves into a corner and now there isn't even enough time to evaluate Tim, even if he were to start this week. They wasted about 3 weeks IMHO by sticking with Orton. Tebow should have been starting after the SF loss in London, because in all honesty, we were way out of the playoff picture even at that point.

It still is enough to give you a good idea. I would rather have some knowledge about Tebow and what he might be capable of going into the draft than none!

[Lonestar]

Which still makes it bad! Its one thing to draft a 2-3 year project QB late in the first round if you have a QB. It's a wholly different deal to do it when you dont, when you have so many holes as all the McD proponents argued, and to throw a 2,3, and 4 into the mix.



What progress? :confused: Do you really think he is progressing sitting on the sidelines? Jay Cutler, like him or hate him, showed progress once he was thrown in the fire. I would rather Tebow learn in live games that all but dont count than trash half of another season just to find out later.



Simms was a vet. Simms was a FA. Simms was another financial disaster of McDaniels! NOt even apples to apples.



But at some point this team needs to truly assess where it stands so that it can build appropriately for the future. I don't see how you can do that without knowing what you truly have in Tebow.

I do not share your outrage on the Tebow pick sometimes you just bite the bullet and do what it takes to get the guy you want.

Now whether that was a mistake or not, time will tell. I have the patience to see it out.

Guess we will have to agree to disagree.

I have seen way to many QB's get flushed by throwing them into the game to soon.

That is how I feel.

Guess we will have to agree to disagree.

[jhildebrand]

I do not share your outrage on the Tebow pick sometimes you just bite the bullet and do what it takes to get the guy you want.

I have no problem with that. But at the cost the team spent on Tebow, when, in your opinion is the right time to play him if not now?

PS: outrage? :lol: I guess I have been told for so long that this team had too many holes to fill for McDaniels to be effective and that we are rebuilding. One draft pick seems to debunk both of those theories.



I have seen way to many QB's get flushed by throwing them into the game to soon.

I just think a QB will make it in this league or they wont-they aren't made of glass. They have been playing this game their entire life.

I don't buy into the sitting a guy really helps or hurts one way or another. It sure would be a lot easier to sell if Tebow was sitting behind a guy like Rodgers, Steve Young, Kevin Kolb, and others have sat behind-but he isn't.

[slim]

I do not share your outrage on the Tebow pick sometimes you just bite the bullet and do what it takes to get the guy you want.

Now whether that was a mistake or not, time will tell. I have the patience to see it out.

Guess we will have to agree to disagree.

I have seen way to many QB's get flushed by throwing them into the game to soon.

That is how I feel.

Guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Hi lonestar. Welcome to the forums.

Good 29,087th post.

[horsepig]

What is Tebow going to learn in practice, does he even run the scout team? I do not give very many coaches much credit for evaluating talent after training camp and the backups only get work in drills and STs. There are a lot of very good players starting because somewhere along the line it became simply necessary to play them.

There are so many intangibles to finding a great player. Hell, even Oppenheimer wasn't sure about the Abomb until they actually blew one up.

As an example that continues to baffle me----can't they find a better cover guy on the roster than Cox? The answer, IMO, is that they fixate on a guy early on and then are afraid to try anything else. What if they play Vaughn and he gets toasted? Well, what if? Cox is a step and a half behind his man on every play. He gets schooled every Sunday, yet they stubbornly continue start him.

Hillis never got a shot 'til injuries forced the issue.

[vandammage13]

It still is enough to give you a good idea. I would rather have some knowledge about Tebow and what he might be capable of going into the draft than none!

Oh, I totally agree that they should not compound the problem even futher by continuing not to play him...I'm just saying that they've wasted so much time getting him in there that now we won't have as good of a sample to evaluate Tim as we should have.

But yeah....Even a little bit of evaluation is better than none.

[horsepig]

Tebow cannot possibly be so ridiculous that he can't at least perform as well as guys like Skelton. His ream won by 30, BTW.

[Lonestar]

I have no problem with that. But at the cost the team spent on Tebow, when, in your opinion is the right time to play him if not now?

PS: outrage? :lol: I guess I have been told for so long that this team had too many holes to fill for McDaniels to be effective and that we are rebuilding. One draft pick seems to debunk both of those theories.



I just think a QB will make it in this league or they wont-they aren't made of glass. They have been playing this game their entire life.

I don't buy into the sitting a guy really helps or hurts one way or another. It sure would be a lot easier to sell if Tebow was sitting behind a guy like Rodgers, Steve Young, Kevin Kolb, and others have sat behind-but he isn't.

Just got this as an email seems like it came just in time for this response.


It's Tebow Time

DENVER, CO. (Vic Lombardi, CBS4) - If you're wondering whether it's wise to expose Tim Tebow to the chaos that is the Black Hole, ask yourself this question: He couldn't possibly do any worse than 59-14, could he?

The time is now.

I could understand resisting the urge to play him in Arizona yesterday, especially since he was stuck practicing with the scout team all week. He didn't get the necessary reps. He would not have been able to properly execute the playbook since most of those plays, if not all, were designed for Orton. Tim Tebow, in case you haven't noticed, is a completely different quarterback. Then again, how would we know?

Here's what needs to happen this week. Orton needs to be told, "Listen Kyle, thanks for everything you've done. You're a true pro. But we need to see what the kid can do."

Orton won't be happy. So what. The Broncos haven't given the fans much to be happy about all year. What's another disappointed customer?

First thing Monday, Tebow needs to hit the film room with offensive coordinator Mike McCoy. Just lock the two of them in the smallest room you can find. Send in the occasional pizza and water. They're not allowed out until practice time on Wednesday.

Throw out the current playbook. McCoy needs to craft a game plan specifically suited to Tebow's talents. We need to see zone reads, roll outs, QB keepers, quick hitches, in-the-huddle prayers, whatever it takes! And then Tebow - and Tebow alone - needs to get every single rep with the starters this week.


Does anyone here believe that Mc Coy is the answer to fixing the playbook and getting the most out of Tebow IF what he said is true?

Like I said Time will Tell.

https://app.e2ma.net/app/view:CampaignPublic/id:38894.8907541820/rid:a24c11d41b63c04e46d596abc207f7f5

[I Eat Staples]

Tebow cannot possibly be so ridiculous that he can't at least perform as well as guys like Skelton. His ream won by 30, BTW.

If Tebow played against the Broncos, I have no doubt he would perform as well as Skelton.

[jhildebrand]

Just got this as an email seems like it came just in time for this response.



Does anyone here believe that Mc Coy is the answer to fixing the playbook and getting the most out of Tebow IF what he said is true?

Like I said Time will Tell.

https://app.e2ma.net/app/view:CampaignPublic/id:38894.8907541820/rid:a24c11d41b63c04e46d596abc207f7f5

Vic is calling for the same thing as me-PLAYING TEBOW THIS WEEKEND. How does that help your argument at all? While I am not happy tebow has not played in mop up duty these past couple weeks, that isn't my bitch. My bitch is play the kid GOING FORWARD.

[Lonestar]

Vic is calling for the same thing as me-PLAYING TEBOW THIS WEEKEND. How does that help your argument at all? While I am not happy tebow has not played in mop up duty these past couple weeks, that isn't my bitch. My bitch is play the kid GOING FORWARD.

Guess I misunderstood your position


Sorry I got involved..

[Cugel]

And Tebow's contract only would count against the cap if they released him, if he's traded the contract and money owed to him for the remainder of the contract are then picked up by the team that trades for him.

That's not correct. Normally, the signing bonus and any other guarantee is pro-rated against the length of the contract (Tebow = 5 years so 1/5th of the bonus has been earned this year and 4/5th counts against the cap in future years).

If a player is traded his entire unmet signing bonus, as well as any other guaranteed money is immediately accelerated against the cap THIS year (2011). Unless the other team agrees to pick up the tab, which they normally don't. IF, however, the player is designated as a June 2 trade or cut, then the signing bonus counts against THIS year's cap and the next year.

That's under the current CBA of course, which will expire in January. 2011 will be uncapped unless there's a new CBA (which we all hope there will be, or else there's NO SEASON and a bitter LOCKOUT dispute).

Normally, what happens when a player is traded is that an entirely NEW contract is negotiated with the new team and a NEW signing bonus paid. That's because traded players are normally veterans and will be able to demand a performance raise in pay.

Here's Tebow's contract:


Tim Tebow Quarterback 7/29/2010: Signed a five-year, $9.75 million contract. (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/clubhouse_contracts.aspx?sport=NFL&majteam=DEN)The deal includes $8.7 million guaranteed. Another $23.25 million is available through incentives, though $9 million of them are "unlikely to be earned." $1.5375 million of the incentives are available through a "likely to be earned" onetime escalator. 2010-2014: Under Contract, 2015: Free Agent

If you want an analysis of Tebow's contract, I believe that incentives that are designated as "likely to be earned" [the NFL has rules about what constitutes a "likely to be earned" incentive] DO count against the cap same as guaranteed money. This prevents teams from making unrealistically easy incentive clauses to get around the cap (ex: a "roster bonus" --being designated "unlikely to be earned").

If correct, that means there's another $14.25 million that would be pro-rated against the cap.

That means if they decide to trade him next season the cap hit should be about $23 million.

If the incentives DON'T count then 4/5s of the roster bonus, or $6.94 million would be accelerated against the cap in 2011 and that would be the cap hit.

Once again though, if there's NO CAP then none of this applies -- and the Broncos can cut or trade Tebow without penalty. If the cap is in the new CBA, but is much HIGHER than the current cap, then it won't matter.

Obviously, if there's NO CAP, then THIS IS THE YEAR for teams to jettison unwanted player contracts without penalty. The Redskins for instance could cut Albert Haynesworth, without triggering his truly MASSIVE guaranteed money being accelerated against the cap in 2011.

In fact, they would have to pay him off, but they would suffer NO CAP HIT. Nor would the Broncos for cutting Tebow.

Since Bowlen is a leading figure on the owners' negotiating committee for the new CBA, he may know things we don't -- such as the owners are anticipating NO SEASON in 2011 and a lockout -- in which case they will use 2011 to get rid of any unwanted player contract without penalty.

[BroncoJoe]

Yeah, we're going to have to disagree. Mr. Joe Montana had an average arm, average legs, and an small-ish frame. What he didn't have physically he made up for mentally. He was 100% cool under pressure - the ANTI-Orton.

Those intangibles can be seen in guys like Tebow. The sheer will to win a game and carry your team to do it. Preseason (all we have to go on) has shown us that Tebow can pass accurately at the NFL level, he has a good NFL arm, he is very mobile, and he gets rid of the ball very quickly. I don't see a TE, I see a QB.

Vick was absolutely a "gimmick QB" coming out of college. He didn't throw a lot at Virginia Tech, in fact, he ran an option-based attack. He might be learing to be a pocket passer THIS YEAR, but during his time in Atlanta he was anything but. You can't overlook that when comparing him.

Randall Cunningham would be another good example. Good arm, fast legs, very athletic. He had a good NFL career. Another good comparison might be Roger Staubach, he ran the option in college yet he worked hard and had the intangibles to win at the NFL level.

Of all the former players in the NFL that made it, Staubach might be the best comparison to what Tebow offers.

Staubach / Tarkenton. Those are the best comparisons, yet even those two don't come close to the athletic ability of Tebow.

Let him play.

Please?

[jhildebrand]

RE: Tebow

Argument: He isn't ready!
Really? John Skelton wasn't ready. He played at football powerhouse Fordham and was drafted in the 5th round. If he can come in and play and play well, why can't Tebow?

Argument: Orton gives us the best chance to win!
Really? His third down conversion rate has been atrocious going back to the Jets game. He seems to have regressed horribly. 27.1. I just don't see it. A guy who appears, to many, to have checked out gives us the best chance to win? I dont buy it.

If this team is looking for a high draft pick, then fine. But give us something to look forward to and play Tebow.

[Bosco]

I hear what you are saying and I understand completely.

But if they are scared that they will "ruin" Tebow by playing him now, he isn't going to be good later. He has had all season to work on his mechanics.

That's not really true though. It takes time to change muscle memory and sticking him in too early, especially on a team with questionable pass blocking the last couple weeks, could undo alot of the progress he's made.

It may not do any damage either, but why risk it for a couple meaningless games?

[BroncoStud]

That's not really true though. It takes time to change muscle memory and sticking him in too early, especially on a team with questionable pass blocking the last couple weeks, could undo alot of the progress he's made.

It may not do any damage either, but why risk it for a couple meaningless games?

Dude, our pass blocking is questionable because Orton is a freaking statute. Go watch Big Ben or Peyton Manning play to see "questionable pass blocking"...

This whole "mechanics" argument is ignorant. He's had a full season to learn mechanics, to practice them, to watch from the sideline, it's time. No one can make a valid and reasonable argument to keep Orton in the game at this point. He sucks. Not only does he suck, but he's boring to watch suck.

[TXBRONC]

Dude, our pass blocking is questionable because Orton is a freaking statute. Go watch Big Ben or Peyton Manning play to see "questionable pass blocking"...

This whole "mechanics" argument is ignorant. He's had a full season to learn mechanics, to practice them, to watch from the sideline, it's time. No one can make a valid and reasonable argument to keep Orton in the game at this point. He sucks. Not only does he suck, but he's boring to watch suck.

Our offensive line has been doing a pretty solid job since Harris came so agreed it's Orton's lack of mobility that the hindrance.

I've had quite bit of anatomy and physiology and I have never seen anything that would remotely support that notion about Tebow's mechanics.

[Bosco]

This whole "mechanics" argument is ignorant. He's had a full season to learn mechanics, to practice them, to watch from the sideline, it's time. Are you calling John Elway ignorant? He sure agreed with that theory. Jon Gruden has too. So did Josh McDaniels and apparently Studesville and McCoy.

If you want to argue that point, be my guest, but consider the company you're debating.

[Bosco]

I've had quite bit of anatomy and physiology and I have never seen anything that would remotely support that notion about Tebow's mechanics. Are you saying that muscle memory is not real?

[TXBRONC]

Are you calling John Elway ignorant? He sure agreed with that theory. Jon Gruden has too. So did Josh McDaniels and apparently Studesville and McCoy.

If you want to argue that point, be my guest, but consider the company you're debating.

None those guys hold a medical do they? As you said it's theory not fact.

[TXBRONC]

Are you saying that muscle memory is not real?

I didn't say that. I said your theory that it would ruin what ever work Tebow has done isn't based on medical fact.

[BroncoStud]

Are you calling John Elway ignorant? He sure agreed with that theory. Jon Gruden has too. So did Josh McDaniels and apparently Studesville and McCoy.

If you want to argue that point, be my guest, but consider the company you're debating.

Ok, fine, play Quinn. If Tebow's mechanics are still so poor that he can't complete 40% of his passes, for 0 TDs and 3 INTs, while fumbling 2 times, so be it. I'm not buying it and it's an illogical argument.

Kyle Orton is playing like a 3rd string NFL QB now that teams have figured out what Denver is trying to do. Give him the short stuff, blitz, take away deep wide open Brandon Lloyd's and Orton is simply a garbage QB.

Tebow or Quinn could produce like he is and give the Broncos a chance to evaluate. But no, let's listen to your argument and head into the offseason without a clue how good or bad our 1st rounder (who used 4 draft picks to obtain) is or how good our other young backup (who we gave up a draft pick and Peyton Hillis to obtain) is...

Yep, you win. :rolleyes:

[Bosco]

None those guys hold a medical do they? As you said it's theory not fact.

Why would they need to have a "medical" (I assume you meant to say "medical degree" here) for developing quarterbacks? Muscle memory is a well established fact so that can't even be debated. All that needs to be done is properly correct the throwing motions and help the player develop that into muscle memory. It's exactly rocket science and anyone who has taught someone to ride a bike or play guitar has helped someone develop muscle memory.

[TXBRONC]

Ok, fine, play Quinn. If Tebow's mechanics are still so poor that he can't complete 40% of his passes, for 0 TDs and 3 INTs, while fumbling 2 times, so be it. I'm not buying it and it's an illogical argument.

Kyle Orton is playing like a 3rd string NFL QB now that teams have figured out what Denver is trying to do. Give him the short stuff, blitz, take away deep wide open Brandon Lloyd's and Orton is simply a garbage QB.

Tebow or Quinn could produce like he is and give the Broncos a chance to evaluate. But no, let's listen to your argument and head into the offseason without a clue how good or bad our 1st rounder (who used 4 draft picks to obtain) is or how good our other young backup (who we gave up a draft pick and Peyton Hillis to obtain) is...

Yep, you win. :rolleyes:

Bite your tongue about Quinn, even with Tebow's unorthodox throwing motion he has a better chance of hitting the broad side of barn than Quinn. :D

[Bosco]

I didn't say that. I said your theory that it would ruin what ever work Tebow has done isn't based on medical fact.

Actually it is fact. It's well established that during the process of developing new muscle memory that reverting to the old way can have any level of adverse effect on the learning process. How much and if any damage is done is totally dependent on the subject and therefor you can't establish a hard and fast rule. This is why I said in the previous post that even though Tebow may be fine, there is significantly more risk than reward involved to make the change.

That's not even going into the possible ramifications in the locker room.

[TXBRONC]

Why would they need to have a "medical" (I assume you meant to say "medical degree" here) for developing quarterbacks? Muscle memory is a well established fact so that can't even be debated. All that needs to be done is properly correct the throwing motions and help the player develop that into muscle memory. It's exactly rocket science and anyone who has taught someone to ride a bike or play guitar has helped someone develop muscle memory.

Again I didn't say muscle memory isn't real. What I said is your theory that if Tebow played it ruin the work he has already done. That's a bogus theory that is not basis in fact.

[Bosco]

Ok, fine, play Quinn. If Tebow's mechanics are still so poor that he can't complete 40% of his passes, for 0 TDs and 3 INTs, while fumbling 2 times, so be it. I'm not buying it and it's an illogical argument. You're not buying it because that's not the argument. I don't know how you twisted that around, but you sure managed to do it.


Kyle Orton is playing like a 3rd string NFL QB now that teams have figured out what Denver is trying to do. Give him the short stuff, blitz, take away deep wide open Brandon Lloyd's and Orton is simply a garbage QB. Teams have known that all season, and yet he's just had his first two real bad games of the year. Granted they were REAL bad games, but I think it's far from the point where you pull him.


Tebow or Quinn could produce like he is and give the Broncos a chance to evaluate. But no, let's listen to your argument and head into the offseason without a clue how good or bad our 1st rounder (who used 4 draft picks to obtain) is or how good our other young backup (who we gave up a draft pick and Peyton Hillis to obtain) is...

Yep, you win. :rolleyes: What are you going to evaluate by throwing those guys in for a meaningless game or two? The team as a whole appears to basically be going through the motions and not really playing hard. You got an offensive coordinator and his system that likely aren't going to be here next year along with the head coach. Seriously, where is the benefit?

[red98]

Are you calling John Elway ignorant? He sure agreed with that theory. Jon Gruden has too. So did Josh McDaniels and apparently Studesville and McCoy.

If you want to argue that point, be my guest, but consider the company you're debating.

I can't find where Elway says that.

I did find this from back in July:


Let 'er rip, Tim Tebow.

Such is the recommendation of Broncos quarterback legend John Elway, who has no problem with Tebow's highly scrutinized throwing motion.

In simple terms, most quarterbacks have a short, compact throwing motion, much like a catcher's in baseball. Tebow's delivery can seem more like an outfielder's.

"The thing about Tebow is they're focusing too much on his release," Elway said Thursday afternoon after shooting a disappointing 11-over-par 82 in the opening round in the HealthOne Colorado Open golf tournament.

"As long as he can get it in a timely manner, I think he has plenty of arm there. ... He's not going to change his release. He may get better. Obviously, by throwing you get more accurate and more accurate and you may shorten it up as time goes on but if it's long and quick, that's OK."



Read more: Elway talks Tebow and Broncos predictions at Colorado Open - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_15578084#ixzz181wonUlV

Hopefully the coaches didn't ruin everything they taught him when they played him in the preseason.

[TXBRONC]

Actually it is fact. It's well established that during the process of developing new muscle memory that reverting to the old way can have any level of adverse effect on the learning process. How much and if any damage is done is totally dependent on the subject and therefor you can't establish a hard and fast rule. This is why I said in the previous post that even though Tebow may be fine, there is significantly more risk than reward involved to make the change.

That's not even going into the possible ramifications in the locker room.

No it's not fact. If it is show us medical data.

We have no idea what would happen in the locker room. At 3-10 I doubt the veterans will complain.

[Bosco]

I can't find where Elway says that.

I did find this from back in July: That's because you're not looking in the right place. It was from the Vic and Gary show, not the Denver Post.


Hopefully the coaches didn't ruin everything they taught him when the played him in the preseason. No risk to ruin it there. That was like riding a bike without training wheels for the first time. It was a rather controlled situation against guys who would be lucky to be NFL backups if that.

[JDL]

Please, this is ludicrous... let's just throw a young QB to the wolves for the sake of doing it... how many teams and QBs have been ruined by being thrown in too early and losing their confidence? Too many to count... miracle that Steve Young was salvaged.

I don't disagree with leaving him on the bench entirely, but the right approach I believe is to let him get comfortable with a handful of plays and design a couple of series for him and see how he does.

The other point is that winning now means nothing... the point is to find things that work and can be built upon next year... you may or may not find that if you just throw Tebow in there... but, if you just manage his reps and start from there you'll probably realize far more upside. The other issue people need to realize is that Orton may very well be the starter next year too... he hasn't played well in two games.. but he played out of his mind in the games before that... fans are just impatient and bored with the team and ready to tear down any player that has done well for them, but isn't the flashy new thing.

There is ZERO need to throw any player under the bus and the organization is trying to keep Orton's confidence steady as they know they'll need him next year in all likelihood. There is not much to be gained starting Tebow for 4 games versus 2 except D Coordinators figuring out what he can do right now and decimating him. He had a lot to learn about being a Pro style QB and I'm not sure why fans can't grasp that reality... 3/4 of season is not all you need coming from where he was.... It was and always has been a two year timetable, let him get some series in for sure... but no need to throw him to the wolves... you've seen how quickly everyone turned on Orton after a couple performances... a couple bad games from a rookie QB and they'll be chanting for the next damn rookie QB who they can salivate over before throwing under the bus... get real people. It would be one thing if Tebow was stepping into a situation where there was some actual stability... but he's not... the team is a cluster and he really doesn't need his name attached to any part of it.

[Bosco]

No it's fact. If it is show us medical data. Seriously, do you even understand what you're arguing right now? You're taking the stance that during the development of a new set of muscle memory that allowing yourself to revert back to old ways would not in any way be detrimental?

Do I really need to work my Google Foo to debunk that which fails at any level of common sense?


We have no idea what would happen in the locker room. At 3-10 I doubt the veteran will complain. We also don't know for sure if we'd FUBAR Tebow's mechanics, but why risk it for a meaningless game?

[Bosco]

Please, this is ludicrous... let's just throw a young QB to the wolves for the sake of doing it... how many teams and QBs have been ruined by being thrown in too early and losing their confidence? Too many to count... miracle that Steve Young was salvaged.

I don't disagree with leaving him on the bench entirely, but the right approach I believe is to let him get comfortable with a handful of plays and design a couple of series for him and see how he does.

The other point is that winning now means nothing... the point is to find things that work and can be built upon next year... you may or may not find that if you just throw Tebow in there... but, if you just manage his reps and start from there you'll probably realize far more upside. The other issue people need to realize is that Orton may very well be the starter next year too... he hasn't played well in two games.. but he played out of his mind in the games before that... fans are just impatient and bored with the team and ready to tear down any player that has done well for them, but isn't the flashy new thing.

There is ZERO need to throw any player under the bus and the organization is trying to keep Orton's confidence steady as they know they'll need him next year in all likelihood. There is not much to be gained starting Tebow for 4 games versus 2 except D Coordinators figuring out what he can do right now and decimating him. He had a lot to learn about being a Pro style QB and I'm not sure why fans can't grasp that reality... 3/4 of season is not all you need coming from where he was.... It was and always has been a two year timetable, let him get some series in for sure... but no need to throw him to the wolves... you've seen how quickly everyone turned on Orton after a couple performances... a couple bad games from a rookie QB and they'll be chanting for the next damn rookie QB who they can salivate over before throwing under the bus... get real people. It would be one thing if Tebow was stepping into a situation where there was some actual stability... but he's not... the team is a cluster and he really doesn't need his name attached to any part of it.

Good post.

[red98]

That's because you're not looking in the right place. It was from the Vic and Gary show, not the Denver Post.

No risk to ruin it there. That was like riding a bike without training wheels for the first time. It was a rather controlled situation against guys who would be lucky to be NFL backups if that.

I looked on Google news. What I posted of course contradicts what Elway said to you and vic and gary. Maybe Elway thinks Elway is ignorant?

[TXBRONC]

Seriously, do you even understand what you're arguing right now? You're taking the stance that during the development of a new set of muscle memory that allowing yourself to revert back to old ways would not in any way be detrimental?

Do I really need to work my Google Foo to debunk that which fails at any level of common sense?

We also don't know for sure if we'd FUBAR Tebow's mechanics, but why risk it for a meaningless game?

This argument is over because once you start insulting people you lose.

[slim]

I looked on Google news. What I posted of course contradicts what Elway said to you and vic and gary. Maybe Elway thinks Elway is ignorant?

If there is anyone that has earned the right to think that, it is Elway

[Bosco]

I looked on Google news. What I posted of course contradicts what Elway said to you and vic and gary. Maybe Elway thinks Elway is ignorant?

No, it doesn't contradict everything. In that piece, Elway is saying he believes the throwing motion was fine as it is. The interview I referenced is about 4 months later when the change had already begun.

[red98]

No, it doesn't contradict everything. In that piece, Elway is saying he believes the throwing motion was fine as it is. The interview I referenced is about 4 months later when the change had already begun.

What change?

Have you been sneaking in to watch Tebow practice or something?

In July Elway says you don't try to change it, now he says "well they changed it and playing will make him revert so don't play him"? I don't believe it.

None of this makes sense, least of all the idea that if Tebow plays he will revert to his old ways regardless of what he's been taught.

[Bosco]

What change?

Have you been sneaking in to watch Tebow practice or something? Are you trying to be funny, or did you miss the fact that correcting Tebow's mechanics has been pretty widely reported on since before he even left college?


In July Elway says you don't try to change it, now he says "well they changed it and playing will make him revert so don't play him"? I don't believe it.

None of this makes sense, least of all the idea that if Tebow plays he will revert to his old ways regardless of what he's been taught. I don't know what to tell you. Elway is the one who said it, not me, so you'd have to take the issue up with him.

[TXBRONC]

Are you trying to be funny, or did you miss the fact that correcting Tebow's mechanics has been pretty widely reported on since before he even left college?

I don't know what to tell you. Elway is the one who said it, not me, so you'd have to take the issue up with him.

And you have no proof that Elway said it correct?

[BroncoJoe]

Are you calling John Elway ignorant? He sure agreed with that theory. Jon Gruden has too. So did Josh McDaniels and apparently Studesville and McCoy.

If you want to argue that point, be my guest, but consider the company you're debating.

Actually, John Elway and Jon Gruden have publically stated they have no problem with his throwing motion.

[Bosco]

Actually, John Elway and Jon Gruden have publically stated they have no problem with his throwing motion.

That's funny considering Tebow spent alot of time with Gruden changing his throwing motion pre-draft.

[BroncoJoe]

That's funny considering Tebow spent alot of time with Gruden changing his throwing motion pre-draft.

Wrong.

[Bosco]

And you have no proof that Elway said it correct? I'm pretty sure Vic and Gary archive all their radio interviews. You're welcome to look, but I'll be damned if I'm going to waste an hour during through that shit to prove a point in an argument you guys have already lost.

[Bosco]

Wrong.

Yeah?

http://www.tampabay.com/sports/college/article1077579.ece

[red98]

Are you trying to be funny, or did you miss the fact that correcting Tebow's mechanics has been pretty widely reported on since before he even left college?

I don't know what to tell you. Elway is the one who said it, not me, so you'd have to take the issue up with him.

I guess I'm not spending enough time on these boards because I haven't seen any reports that Broncos are working on fixing Tebow's release.

I have seen him throw a pass in a live game. His release was the same as always.

At least we should agree that backing up your theory by semi-quoting Elway, and claiming people who disagree must think Elway is ignorant, is a non-starter since it's now shown he's contradicted himself.

But really Bosco. Aside from your point about mechanics, which I disagree with. How would playing Tebow in these games negatively affect him?

[TXBRONC]

I'm pretty sure Vic and Gary archive all their radio interviews. You're welcome to look, but I'll be damned if I'm going to waste an hour during through that shit to prove a point in an argument you guys have already lost.

You have no proof yet we've lost the argument? No I don't think so.

[Bosco]

But really Bosco. Aside from your point about mechanics, which I disagree with. How would playing Tebow in these games negatively affect him?

That's the thing. There is no way to know if it would effect him or not. He may have completely committed his new throwing style to muscle memory and would be completely fine. There is just as much chance that the opposite is true. Since there is nothing left to really play for this season, starting him now would be a senseless risk IMO.

Maybe the coaching staff will feel differently and give him the last start of the season. I certainly wouldn't bet on it, but it's possible.

[BroncoJoe]

Yeah?

http://www.tampabay.com/sports/college/article1077579.ece

Yeah.


Q: The spread is being run in high schools and colleges, is it possible it could be a base offense in the NFL one day?

A: “No question. The hard part is, you have to isolate the option. That’s why Tim Tebow is so interesting to me. He’s like Brandon Jacobs playing quarterback. He’s 250 pounds. He’s the strongest human being who’s ever played the position. Ever. He will kick the living [expletive] out of a defensive lineman. He’ll fight anybody. He is rare. Tebow is the kind of guy who could revolutionize the game. He’s the ‘wildcat’ who can throw. Most of the teams that have the wildcat back there, it’s Ronnie Brown, it’s Jerious Norwood, it’s whoever you want to say it is. This guy here is 250 pounds of concrete cyanide, man. And he can throw. He throws well enough at any level to play quarterback.”


or,


"Nothing really surprises me other than there are a lot more doubters than maybe I expected," Gruden said. "Tim's transition to more of a conventional NFL style has drawn a lot of questions from people, whether he can make the modifications in his passing delivery and adapt to playing under center. ... What I'm really impressed with is the way he sits on the edge of his chair and his work ethic and relentlessness to become great is really second to nobody."

[BroncoJoe]

That's funny considering Tebow spent alot of time with Gruden changing his throwing motion pre-draft.

From your posted article:


For about an hour Thursday at the northwest Tampa school, Tebow worked on the NFL's most scrutinized passing delivery under the direction of former Bucs coach Jon Gruden.



Guess "about an hour" is a lot of time...

[Bosco]

Yeah.



or,

I'm looking for your point here, but I'm not seeing it.


From your posted article:



Guess "about an hour" is a lot of time... One of several meetings. Again, what is your point?

[red98]

That's the thing. There is no way to know if it would effect him or not. He may have completely committed his new throwing style to muscle memory and would be completely fine. There is just as much chance that the opposite is true. Since there is nothing left to really play for this season, starting him now would be a senseless risk IMO.

Maybe the coaching staff will feel differently and give him the last start of the season. I certainly wouldn't bet on it, but it's possible.

Well I understand that position.

I know Tebow starting 3 meaningless games won't tell us what we have in him. It's not near enough of a sample and with a rookie interim coach no less.

But I do believe the team would gain some knowledge and insight and that Tebow would gain some experience. Absent a clear negative risk I say it's worth starting him.

Right now I don't believe Tebow will take another snap this year, but we'll see.

[BroncoJoe]

From Elway:


The legendary former Broncos quarterback was asked a couple of token questions about his golf game. Then he was asked about Tim Tebow.



As for Tebow, Elway likes him. Likes him a lot. Elway even thinks Tebow's highly scrutinized throwing motion is an overblown concern.

In simple terms, most quarterbacks have a short, compact throwing motion, much like a catcher's in baseball. Tebow's delivery more resembles an outfielder's release.

"I think they're focusing too much on his release," Elway said. "As long as he can get it out of there in a timely manner, I think he has plenty of arm there.

[claymore]

I was originally all for starting Tebow, but this coaching staff that McD assembled is worse than I imagined. I mean, I didnt like a majority of the choices, but holy shit these guys are bad.

I dont want them to screw Tebow up. In fact, Id be cool if they didnt play Clady, Royal, Moreno, Bailey or Tebow. Dont even make those guys go to practice.

[BeefStew25]

Great point Clay. It would be like Nub teaching you how to scare up ass. Totally worthless.

[BroncoJoe]

I'm looking for your point here, but I'm not seeing it.

Go see an optometrist then.



One of several meetings. Again, what is your point?

Several meetings lasting "about an hour" equate to him working with him a lot?

Again, what is your point?

[vandammage13]

I was originally all for starting Tebow, but this coaching staff that McD assembled is worse than I imagined. I mean, I didnt like a majority of the choices, but holy shit these guys are bad.

I dont want them to screw Tebow up. In fact, Id be cool if they didnt play Clady, Royal, Moreno, Bailey or Tebow. Dont even make those guys go to practice.

That is a good point that I was thinking as well. Many ppl on these boards are saying they aren't letting Tebow play because perhaps he's just looking really bad or just not ready.

I think maybe the FO doesn't want this inept, ragtag coaching staff ruining him these last few games, so they are a little gun shy.

[TXBRONC]

I was originally all for starting Tebow, but this coaching staff that McD assembled is worse than I imagined. I mean, I didnt like a majority of the choices, but holy shit these guys are bad.

I dont want them to screw Tebow up. In fact, Id be cool if they didnt play Clady, Royal, Moreno, Bailey or Tebow. Dont even make those guys go to practice.

McCoy and Ben McDaniels have been working with Tebow for eight months now. So if you're worried about them screwing Tebow up then it might be to late.

[vandammage13]

McCoy and Ben McDaniels have been working with Tebow for eight months now. So if you're worried about them screwing Tebow up then it might be to late.

Probably moreso to do with devising a gameplan for him than anything else...

[slim]

McCoy and Ben McDaniels have been working with Tebow for eight months now. So if you're worried about them screwing Tebow up then it might be to late.

This may explain why he has failed to outperform Orton in practice :eek:

[TXBRONC]

This may explain why he has failed to outperform Orton in practice :eek:

Nah Tebow has the archangel Gabriel on his side. If McCoy and Ben McDaniels attempt to harm him in any way God will strike them down.

[claymore]

McCoy and Ben McDaniels have been working with Tebow for eight months now. So if you're worried about them screwing Tebow up then it might be to late.

Ive been very worried about it. Man Mcd fugged this place up.

[TXBRONC]

Ive been very worried about it. Man Mcd fugged this place up.

Mike McCoy has been in the NFL for awhile and he has experience working with quarterbacks I don't think he could hurt Tebow's progress.

[spikerman]

I would just like to see if the Broncos need to look at QBs with their top 3 pick ini the draft.

[claymore]

Mike McCoy has been in the NFL for awhile and he has experience working with quarterbacks I don't think he could hurt Tebow's progress.

I'll pass. Tebow is a winner, and a leader... Thats the most important thing. Id rather get Kubiak or some other stallion in here to coach up Tebow.

Have Tebow work with the greek, blessing groin pulls on the sidline for the rst of the season..

[dogfish]

I would just like to see if the Broncos need to look at QBs with their top 3 pick ini the draft.

but realistically, how can we determine that this year?

three games with this high school coaching staff can't prove anything, unless tebow comes in and looks like montana. . . don't get me wrong, i'd also like to see him play-- but NO WAY do i want those games to be used as a determining factor regarding his fate here. . . the new coaching staff needs to work with tebow for a year (and preferrably with orton as well) to determine what they have-- no more coming in and replacing productive and/or highly talented players without even evaluating them. . . that's the mcdaniels way, that's what got us in this mess in the first place. . .

we aren't getting luck, and the other guys aren't so special that we can't live without one of them. . . the new regime needs to focus on fixing the ****in' defense, finally-- if they come in and immediately start investing high picks on offensive skill position players, it'll tell me everything i need to know about their odds of success here. . .

[spikerman]

but realistically, how can we determine that this year?

three games with this high school coaching staff can't prove anything, unless tebow comes in and looks like montana. . . don't get me wrong, i'd also like to see him play-- but NO WAY do i want those games to be used as a determining factor regarding his fate here. . . the new coaching staff needs to work with tebow for a year (and preferrably with orton as well) to determine what they have-- no more coming in and replacing productive and/or highly talented players without even evaluating them. . . that's the mcdaniels way, that's what got us in this mess in the first place. . .

we aren't getting luck, and the other guys aren't so special that we can't live without one of them. . . the new regime needs to focus on fixing the ****in' defense, finally-- if they come in and immediately start investing high picks on offensive skill position players, it'll tell me everything i need to know about their odds of success here. . .

I agree with a lot of what you say here and you're right it's tough based on three games, but it's better than nothing. What if the next staff comes in and has nothing on tape to evaluate? They'll have to decide on whether to draft a potential franchise QB or trust that they already have one. It would be easier if they had at least some film on him.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Probably moreso to do with devising a gameplan for him than anything else...

Let him run the current playbook! What's so damned hard about that? Snap the ball, hand off to Knowshon. Snap the ball, throw to a double covered Lloyd. Snap the ball, throw ball into dirt on 3rd and long or take a sack if you really don't feel like making a play. Rinse, repeat.

Shit, maybe Tebow can use his legs and extend the play a little and even "scramble"... QBs are still allowed to do that, right? Since Orton has been here I figured it had been outlawed our something since he never does it.

[dogfish]

I agree with a lot of what you say here and you're right it's tough based on three games, but it's better than nothing. What if the next staff comes in and has nothing on tape to evaluate? They'll have to decide on whether to draft a potential franchise QB or trust that they already have one. It would be easier if they had at least some film on him.

yea, i don't think we're really disagreeing on anything here. . .

i just get so gat damn frustrated watching the same dance year after year. . . it took shanahan a damn decade to figure out that it's good to have actual talent at offensive tackle, and you'd probably have to go back to theorange crush days to find a denver team with top talent in the defensive front seven. . .

it's not an accident that teams like baltimore and the jets can plug in a rookie QB and win games, and it's NOT just that guys like flacco and sanchez are such great QBs. . . those teams play nasty defense and pound the ball-- they don't NEED that elusive all-world quarterback. . . of course you'd still rather have that guy, but if you aren't willing to pay the price (we could've moved up for bradford last year, especially if we hadn't wasted a pick on phonse) to get a true blue-chipper, you're just SO much better off building your lines than constantly throwing away picks chasing the mythical franchise-changing QB. . .

we shoulda just ****in' stuck with cutler and dealt with the immaturity. . .:tsk:

we spent quite a bit to trade up for him, sign and develop him-- and then as soon as he's becoming a vet we trade him off. . . then spend two years reclaiming orton, and invest a high pick in tebow. . . only to spend another high pick the following year? and then we're going to go into the season still not knowing whether the position is solved?

i'm going to stab puppies if we draft a quarterback next year! i don't even care if tebow is the answer or not. . . between a reliable vet who was very productive this year before falling apart down the stretch, and a talented top pick rookie, there damn well better be enough there for someone to work with for a year or two. . . find a way to ****in' make do for a year or two if need be-- if our scoring defense wasn't at the bottom of the league, there would be a hell of a lot less pressure on whoever the QB is. . .

i'll be beyond furious if we spend a high pick on a quarterback short of luck falling in our lap unexpectedly. . . but WTF do i know?

[robert ethan]

Maybe Tim doesn't want to stay in Denver. Obviously there is considerable corruption in the organization if assistant coachs are ratting out the head coach to ownership in order to improve their own standing. Tebow is an up front straight shooter and I don't think he would want to be part of that, regardless of the personal price he had to pay to relocate.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

yea, i don't think we're really disagreeing on anything here. . .

i just get so gat damn frustrated watching the same dance year after year. . . it took shanahan a damn decade to figure out that it's good to have actual talent at offensive tackle, and you'd probably have to go back to theorange crush days to find a denver team with top talent in the defensive front seven. . .

it's not an accident that teams like baltimore and the jets can plug in a rookie QB and win games, and it's NOT just that guys like flacco and sanchez are such great QBs. . . those teams play nasty defense and pound the ball-- they don't NEED that elusive all-world quarterback. . . of course you'd still rather have that guy, but if you aren't willing to pay the price (we could've moved up for bradford last year, especially if we hadn't wasted a pick on phonse) to get a true blue-chipper, you're just SO much better off building your lines than constantly throwing away picks chasing the mythical franchise-changing QB. . .

we shoulda just ****in' stuck with cutler and dealt with the immaturity. . .:tsk:

we spent quite a bit to trade up for him, sign and develop him-- and then as soon as he's becoming a vet we trade him off. . . then spend two years reclaiming orton, and invest a high pick in tebow. . . only to spend another high pick the following year? and then we're going to go into the season still not knowing whether the position is solved?

i'm going to stab puppies if we draft a quarterback next year! i don't even care if tebow is the answer or not. . . between a reliable vet who was very productive this year before falling apart down the stretch, and a talented top pick rookie, there damn well better be enough there for someone to work with for a year or two. . . find a way to ****in' make do for a year or two if need be-- if our scoring defense wasn't at the bottom of the league, there would be a hell of a lot less pressure on whoever the QB is. . .

i'll be beyond furious if we spend a high pick on a quarterback short of luck falling in our lap unexpectedly. . . but WTF do i know?

All I can say is.... Yep. :duck:

[red98]

I would just like to see if the Broncos need to look at QBs with their top 3 pick ini the draft.

Same here. I don't think 3 games would be enough to know what we have in Tebow. But It would give the us an idea at least.

[spikerman]

Maybe Tim doesn't want to stay in Denver. Obviously there is considerable corruption in the organization if assistant coachs are ratting out the head coach to ownership in order to improve their own standing. Tebow is an up front straight shooter and I don't think he would want to be part of that, regardless of the personal price he had to pay to relocate.

Ben, Ben, Ben, Ben, Ben ......... :tsk:

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Maybe Tim doesn't want to stay in Denver. Obviously there is considerable corruption in the organization if assistant coachs are ratting out the head coach to ownership in order to improve their own standing. Tebow is an up front straight shooter and I don't think he would want to be part of that, regardless of the personal price he had to pay to relocate.

:deadhorse:

Who cares how McDaniels got caught? He was a dirty piece of shit cheater that brought disgrace on my favorite team. I wish Tebow would've beaten his ass for being a dirty cheat. I can't see Tebow condoning anything McDaniels did in regards to spygate II.

[red98]

but realistically, how can we determine that this year?

three games with this high school coaching staff can't prove anything, unless tebow comes in and looks like montana. . . don't get me wrong, i'd also like to see him play-- but NO WAY do i want those games to be used as a determining factor regarding his fate here. . . the new coaching staff needs to work with tebow for a year (and preferrably with orton as well) to determine what they have-- no more coming in and replacing productive and/or highly talented players without even evaluating them. . . that's the mcdaniels way, that's what got us in this mess in the first place. . .

we aren't getting luck, and the other guys aren't so special that we can't live without one of them. . . the new regime needs to focus on fixing the ****in' defense, finally-- if they come in and immediately start investing high picks on offensive skill position players, it'll tell me everything i need to know about their odds of success here. . .

That's one possible plus of Tebow playing. If he does well it could tamp down the Luck talk so the team and all of Broncofandom can start debating the best front 7 player at pick 3 in the draft. :D

[robert ethan]

:deadhorse:

Who cares how McDaniels got caught? He was a dirty piece of shit cheater that brought disgrace on my favorite team. I wish Tebow would've beaten his ass for being a dirty cheat. I can't see Tebow condoning anything McDaniels did in regards to spygate II.

Yeah right. Josh twisted Scarnecchia's arm to go break into a football stadium in London, film 6 minutes of useless walkthrough time, and rush it back to the hotel so he could gain UNFAIR ADVANTAGE OVER THE OPPOSITION.

Hienous crime.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Yeah right. Josh twisted Scarnecchia's arm to go break into a football stadium in London, film 6 minutes of useless walkthrough time, and rush it back to the hotel so he could gain UNFAIR ADVANTAGE OVER THE OPPOSITION.

Hienous crime.

Dude, believe what you want, but there's a frickin' reason McDouchebag isn't here anymore and it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more than wins and losses.

[claymore]

Maybe Tim doesn't want to stay in Denver. Obviously there is considerable corruption in the organization if assistant coachs are ratting out the head coach to ownership in order to improve their own standing. Tebow is an up front straight shooter and I don't think he would want to be part of that, regardless of the personal price he had to pay to relocate.
Whoever told on McDaniels is a hero.

[silkamilkamonico]

Whoever told on McDaniels is a hero.

Whoever knocks some sense into Bowlen, who is the main culprit in this organization's demise, will be Denver' hero!

[claymore]

Whoever knocks some sense into Bowlen, who is the main culprit in this organization's demise, will be Denver' hero!

We will be fine. McD was a terrible investment. Bowlen had alot invested in McD. It took some balls cutting him off when he did.

Give Pat some credit.

Ive never had more respect for the guy.

[Lancane]

but realistically, how can we determine that this year?

three games with this high school coaching staff can't prove anything, unless tebow comes in and looks like montana. . . don't get me wrong, i'd also like to see him play-- but NO WAY do i want those games to be used as a determining factor regarding his fate here. . . the new coaching staff needs to work with tebow for a year (and preferrably with orton as well) to determine what they have-- no more coming in and replacing productive and/or highly talented players without even evaluating them. . . that's the mcdaniels way, that's what got us in this mess in the first place. . .

we aren't getting luck, and the other guys aren't so special that we can't live without one of them. . . the new regime needs to focus on fixing the ****in' defense, finally-- if they come in and immediately start investing high picks on offensive skill position players, it'll tell me everything i need to know about their odds of success here. . .

Dog, I think most of us would tend to agree with you - I know I do. McDaniels neglected the defense, but let's be honest...he did as much damage to the offensive side of the ball. And we're paying for it now, he's paid for it and so will the rest of his handpicked staff here rather soon. But, while defense is important, this is Denver and in Denver no one is more important then the quarterback, no matter the argument we see the success of teams with franchise quarterbacks, not all but most have continual chances every year to make the playoffs.

Elway is coming back in an advisory - executive role, Kubiak is likely the top choice to replace McDaniels. Elway has talked about Luck, he's seen the sort of talent big armed quarterbacks that fit such roles. Kubiak was willing to get rid of a first round pick who had not lived up to his potential to get Shaub a big armed prolific passer somewhat already established, plus it's become the trend for a new regime to want their own franchise quarterback, none more evident that what we went through with Cutler. It's something to think about, especially when there is some insecurity and lingering questions about the kid we have that was suppose to be the future for us. It also raises the question of why so many believe or believed that he was a future NFL quarterback? Were they right or were they wrong.

I'd love to see us go heavy defensively in this draft, but we are going to have to spend a high pick on offense. If Tebow is the future, then we need an upgrade at the right tackle position and unless we're willing to pay big money in free agency, the draft would be the best place to grab Harris' replacement. If Tebow is not the future then we're likely to spend a pretty high draft pick on another kid that can possibly be that sooner rather then later, there has also been talk about using a higher to mid round pick on a tight end...so at this time...I just don't know, no one really does but it seems that the team has no clue either and there is something else at play in the mix that we as fans are unaware of.

[silkamilkamonico]

We will be fine. McD was a terrible investment. Bowlen had alot invested in McD. It took some balls cutting him off when he did.

Give Pat some credit.

Ive never had more respect for the guy.

I can't give Pat credit until he changes this mess on the field with actual results. It was his boneheaded business plan that employed McDaniels in the first place. It was his inability to allow a virgin 32 year old HC to purge the only talent this organization had. It is currently his boneheaded decision to not play Tebow, who is only going to be good for the organizaiton.

IMHO, if Tebow doesn't play at all this year so the organization can see where they are at with him, Bowlen's decision will continue to set this god forsaken organization back even longer.

We have holes all over the place. We do not need to go into next year with a humongous question mark at QB, when we can at least see what we have with him this year. Not starting Tebow the minute Denver was eliminated from the playoffs is a huge mistake. how long will Bowlen continue to let that mistake grow?

[claymore]

I can't give Pat credit until he changes this mess on the field with actual results. It was his boneheaded business plan that employed McDaniels in the first place. It was his inability to allow a virgin 32 year old HC to purge the only talent this organization had. It is currently his boneheaded decision to not play Tebow, who is only going to be good for the organizaiton.

IMHO, if Tebow doesn't play at all this year so the organization can see where they are at with him, Bowlen's decision will continue to set this god forsaken organization back even longer.

We have holes all over the place. We do not need to go into next year with a humongous question mark at QB, when we can at least see what we have with him this year. Not starting Tebow the minute Denver was eliminated from the playoffs is a huge mistake. how long will Bowlen continue to let that mistake grow?
Mistakes were made. He manned up and admitted it. Starting Tebow is the easy answer. Waiting until we have a set of quality coaches is the hard right.

We have huge question marks at QB. We cant change that. We can draft another question mark... Maybe sign a scrub FA... Bottom line is if Tebow sucks ass, Orton will get us to 6 wins next year with a good coach.

[dogfish]

If Tebow is not the future then we're likely to spend a pretty high draft pick on another kid that can possibly be that sooner rather then later

i completely get this-- understand it, accpet it, expect it. . . but here's my thing-- are we getting bill walsch?

because i don't know who else is gonna walk through that door and tell me whether tebow is the future or not when the kid hasn't played. . . i'm cool with spending a high pick on a quarterback-- i would have been thrilled if we'd traded up to number one for bradford last year. . .if tebow isn't the future, we do need to go after another blue chip QB, no question-- i just want us to take a year or two to figure out whether tebow can be that guy, since we've already paid to get him. . .

i may not be a pro personnel exec, but it doesn't require staying at a holiday inn or playing a doctor on TV to determine that it makes some sense to fix what we KNOW beyond any doubt is broken first. . .

i'm not saying we have an answer at QB on the roster-- but there are at least some parts to work with. . . nosetackle is a barren wasteland of nothingness, and safety is right there if mcglass can't stay healthy. . . if the new regime doesn't fix THAT, they'll end up where the old one is now pretty quick. . .

i don't care if we do get luck. . . ask him to go out there with that year's version of marlon mccree and dewayne robertson (or jason hunter and kevin vikerson, whoever), and he's just going to fail. . . matty ice wouldn't be winning all those games in atlanta if they hadn't also acquired guys like curtis lofton, peria jerry, mike peterson and dunta robinson to go along with jon abraham. . .

now, if you can convince me that we're going to go out and acquire some guys like cullen jenkins and david harris, then i might be able to get on board with drafting a quarterback. . . otherwise, not at all. . .

and i'm not saying you're wrong, cane-- i'm in no position to speak about what the front office is thinking, IF they even know themselves. . . let alone what our new hires will want to do. . .

i'm just giving my opinion, and i for one am gonna be absolutely ****ing livid if we spend any high draft picks for offensive skill positions outside of possibly a stud RB in the 2nd or 3rd. . . if we want a better TE, cut graham's one-dimensional ass and spend that money on a FA-- this year's class features plenty of decent TEs, along with vernon davis and marcedes lewis. . .

i can stomach spending a pick on tackle if we don't re-sign harris, and we absolutely need better depth there even if we do. . . i understand that a fairly high pick needs to be spent there one of the next two years if we don't get a competent vet in FA. . .

i'm most certainly not opposed to spending resources to fill legitimate holes anywhere on the team-- it's just the redundancy of continuing to invest on certain positions where we already have usable options while other go unaddressed that makes my blood boil. . .

if the new regime continues our moronic "tradition" of trotting out entire D-lines composed of nothing but journeyman stiffs and late round crap, i'm fairly certain we'll continue to get beat like a drum on a regular basis. . . KC and oakland have both put together strong running games-- if we don't build a defense that can honestly and legitimately stop the run, we're going to be an afterthought in our own division unless the new savior QB really is the next john elway. . .

you can't just talk about that shit-- "we want to be more physical," "we want to stop the run". . . you either draft to back it up, or you keep ending up doing pressers making excuses and talking about how you "want" to do those things. . . you don't hear guys like tomlin and harbaugh doing a lot of pressers talking about how they need to be more physical, and there's a reason for that. . .

this shit ain't rocket science-- i hope we can get somebody in charge that gets it. . .

[dogfish]

Bottom line is if Tebow sucks ass, Orton will get us to 6 wins next year with a good coach.

orton got us to 8 wins when we had a defensive coordinator that knew the difference between a cover-2 and a zero blitz. . . and that was with like two good players to work with on defense. . .

[claymore]

orton got us to 8 wins when we had a defensive coordinator that knew the difference between a cover-2 and a zero blitz. . . and that was with like two good players to work with on defense. . .

When its all said and done Axing Nolan was McD's downfall. Hopefully the next coach is ok with delegation .

[I Eat Staples]

I understand people wanting to see what we have in Tebow during the last few weeks of a lost season, and I wouldn't be mad at all if Tebow started the rest of the year. But for those saying that Orton "sucks" because he had two really bad games, that just seems like frustration and overreacting.

[jhildebrand]

I understand people wanting to see what we have in Tebow during the last few weeks of a lost season, and I wouldn't be mad at all if Tebow started the rest of the year. But for those saying that Orton "sucks" because he had two really bad games, that just seems like frustration and overreacting.

It goes all the way back to the Jets game and last season IES! His third down conversion rate is atrocious. His splits down by 7, a common deficit, is terrible.

I just think we have seen the ceiling with Orton. He has a better team around him this season from a personnel standpoint but our record will be substantially worse-further proof that Nolan had more to do with 6-0 than McD ever did.

At the end of the day Orton isn't going to win us any games or carry this team.

[TXBRONC]

It goes all the way back to the Jets game and last season IES! His third down conversion rate is atrocious. His splits down by 7, a common deficit, is terrible.

I just think we have seen the ceiling with Orton. He has a better team around him this season from a personnel standpoint but our record will be substantially worse-further proof that Nolan had more to do with 6-0 than McD ever did.

At the end of the day Orton isn't going to win us any games or carry this team.

Four times this season we've had a chance to win in the end and three times we turned the ball over and once we punted it away on our last truly meaningful possession.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

This thread has grown pretty large and a lot of opinions have been kicked around but I was just sitting here looking at the title and realized how F'ed up it is.


"Tebow asked Ellis if he was done in Denver?"

Let me get this straight Tebow asked ELLIS if he was done?

Who the hell is Ellis? Obviously, he's the man making all the important decisions in Denver these days. This statement just proves it. Tebow didn't go to his interim HC. Tebow didn't go to his "GM" in Brian Xanders (the guy you'd think he'd talk to) and he didn't go to the OWNER... he went to the owner's... crony?

This in itself should tell everyone here the sad-ass state of this franchise when a guy like Joe Ellis is the guy our players seek out when they have a question about their future. Not a football guy, not the owner... a pencil pushing, number crunching, press conference giving businessman. The one guy in the organization about as far removed from the field as there is.

Sad... just sad... we're f'n doomed. :tsk:

[dogfish]

i hope the "we're doomed" is a little overly dramatic :laugh:, but astute observation nonethleless. . .

[HORSEPOWER 56]

i hope the "we're doomed" is a little overly dramatic :laugh:, but astute observation nonethleless. . .

Not really. I just realized that Joe f'n Ellis has ALL the power and he will be deciding who we get to run this organization from GM on down this off-season. The guy sucks at football decisions. Maybe we'll get lucky and Elway will choke him to death or something, but just the fact that players even talk to this guy - who should have NO CONTACT with the players at all - is disturbing and really makes me doubt Bowlen's mental state completely. Joe Ellis is now the de-facto owner of the Broncos. Bowlen is a feeble old man who probably can't tie his own shoes anymore and Joe Ellis is making the decisions. It couldn't be any more obvious than this...

[TXBRONC]

Not really. I just realized that Joe f'n Ellis has ALL the power and he will be deciding who we get to run this organization from GM on down this off-season. The guy sucks at football decisions. Maybe we'll get lucky and Elway will choke him to death or something, but just the fact that players even talk to this guy - who should have NO CONTACT with the players at all - is disturbing and really makes me doubt Bowlen's mental state completely. Joe Ellis is now the de-facto owner of the Broncos. Bowlen is a feeble old man who probably can't tie his own shoes anymore and Joe Ellis is making the decisions. It couldn't be any more obvious than this...

HP I think you're being a just a little bit of a :drama:. :lol:

[Lancane]

This thread has grown pretty large and a lot of opinions have been kicked around but I was just sitting here looking at the title and realized how F'ed up it is.


"Tebow asked Ellis if he was done in Denver?"

Let me get this straight Tebow asked ELLIS if he was done?

Who the hell is Ellis? Obviously, he's the man making all the important decisions in Denver these days. This statement just proves it. Tebow didn't go to his interim HC. Tebow didn't go to his "GM" in Brian Xanders (the guy you'd think he'd talk to) and he didn't go to the OWNER... he went to the owner's... crony?

This in itself should tell everyone here the sad-ass state of this franchise when a guy like Joe Ellis is the guy our players seek out when they have a question about their future. Not a football guy, not the owner... a pencil pushing, number crunching, press conference giving businessman. The one guy in the organization about as far removed from the field as their is.

Sad... just sad... we're f'n doomed. :tsk:

But it's makes sense Horse, I would agree with you that most would have gone to the general manager or asked to speak with the owner. But consider the fact that Josh was use to dealing with Ellis, remember the whole internal coup statement that I have made before. Why go to Ellis? Maybe because Xanders was the low man on the totem pole? Ellis was who McDaniels usually turned to instead of the owner when problems arose? May he's on the outs with Bowlen and Tim feels that with Josh gone, the rumors of Xanders being given restricted power that Ellis was his best bet to get an answer?

It is a sad state that we're in, Bowlen is unsure of what to do...that's why I really think he turned to Elway, no coach given the power that Bowlen gave to Josh has ever F'd things up as bad, this is all different, Reeves and Shanahan knew what they were doing...they thought McDaniels did, but they were wrong. Ellis has to be sweating bullets, because the more and more we are hearing the more it sounds like Elway will be Bowlen's right hand man. One rumor we've heard is saying the Pat's kids are telling their dad to fire Joe Ellis...that's F'n sorry, when your own children may be telling you what is the right thing to do.

That's why I've been saying that something stinks in Dove Valley.

[red98]

Not really. I just realized that Joe f'n Ellis has ALL the power and he will be deciding who we get to run this organization from GM on down this off-season. The guy sucks at football decisions. Maybe we'll get lucky and Elway will choke him to death or something, but just the fact that players even talk to this guy - who should have NO CONTACT with the players at all - is disturbing and really makes me doubt Bowlen's mental state completely. Joe Ellis is now the de-facto owner of the Broncos. Bowlen is a feeble old man who probably can't tie his own shoes anymore and Joe Ellis is making the decisions. It couldn't be any more obvious than this...

Dude, there's a reason people call Ellis "wormtounge". He's the guy many believe chased away Shanny, the Goodmans, etc. and the one who gave McFired control of personnel.

[Lonestar]

Not really. I just realized that Joe f'n Ellis has ALL the power and he will be deciding who we get to run this organization from GM on down this off-season. The guy sucks at football decisions. Maybe we'll get lucky and Elway will choke him to death or something, but just the fact that players even talk to this guy - who should have NO CONTACT with the players at all - is disturbing and really makes me doubt Bowlen's mental state completely. Joe Ellis is now the de-facto owner of the Broncos. Bowlen is a feeble old man who probably can't tie his own shoes anymore and Joe Ellis is making the decisions. It couldn't be any more obvious than this...

Did anyone stop to think it may have been Eliis that called him in. Or just maybe they bumped into each other in the break room, work out area or coming in the building.

Sometimes the simplest things are the way most likely to have happened.

Way to many conspiracy theories going around, with everyone wanting to think the worst.


Maybe it it time for everyone to step back and take a deep breath and then exhale.

Get that blood pressure down. Stop from stroking out.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

My opinion...this is now a finish out the season and then back to the drawing board situation. I will be shocked if we see any of our young playmakers on the field again this year. Keep em safe. The ship is just about sunk. Our line is suspect and could get Tebow killed. It'd be a shame for that to happen in a dead season. Especially if we would consider trading him to Buffalo (jersey sales can't be underestimated in a town like Buffalo). We will regroup the day after week 17 is done. Until then, just show up and don't get anyone else hurt.

[dogfish]

My opinion...this is now a finish out the season and then back to the drawing board situation. I will be shocked if we see any of our young playmakers on the field again this year. Keep em safe. The ship is just about sunk. Our line is suspect and could get Tebow killed. It'd be a shame for that to happen in a dead season. Especially if we would consider trading him to Buffalo (jersey sales can't be underestimated in a town like Buffalo). We will regroup the day after week 17 is done. Until then, just show up and don't get anyone else hurt.

what, you don't think studesville's the right guy to develop tebow?


:noidea:

[SmilinAssasSin27]

ummmm...no

[dogfish]

ummmm...no

well, come on, dude. . . he's the running backs coach from buffalo, and uhh. . . he looks pretty stoic. . . okay, i guess that's all i've got. . .

i honestly don't think it matters, though. . . tim's a grownup, he could probably drive the freakin' clown car as well as the next guy. . .

this season is a joke. . .

[pnbronco]

My opinion...this is now a finish out the season and then back to the drawing board situation. I will be shocked if we see any of our young playmakers on the field again this year. Keep em safe. The ship is just about sunk. Our line is suspect and could get Tebow killed. It'd be a shame for that to happen in a dead season. Especially if we would consider trading him to Buffalo (jersey sales can't be underestimated in a town like Buffalo). We will regroup the day after week 17 is done. Until then, just show up and don't get anyone else hurt.

Considering we've put 3 players on IR from the last 2 games, I think it's just better to protect the our young ones. The last 3 games are meaningless, less than pre-season. However the Raiders and SD are still fighting for playoff spots, so there is no way to control plays like pre-season.

I have no idea where Tim is on working on his mechanics, but muscle memory is very real. It's why people that have had serious brain trauma and can't remember their children can still do things like play a piano if they knew how to do that before the trauma.

I've always heard that football is as much mental as physical so why risk that part of his development on games that are that meaningless.

I can't remember when TD got hurt that ruined his career, but it seemed like that game was meaningless and man I wish he had been on the bench that day.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

TD was an early season game. Griese threw an INT and TD tried to make a tackle. Matt Lepsis did too and blew up TD's knee.

Ironically enough, Lepsis was the first to congratulate TD when he reached 2000 yards the year b4.

[BroncoStud]

I guess what is troublesome is that Tebow had to go to "management" if anyone can really call that clown Joe Ellis that, and ask his status. He was so in the dark about his role with this franchise that HE had to go to THEM and ask...

WTF is that all about?

[Clipworthy]

This is crazy...we can't predict anything until we do see Tebow...which will happen eventually


and why would we draft Newton if we have Tebow? unless Tebow is an absolute mess when he plays, Cam is basically the same sort of qb with a slight improvement at a few things. But again, we don't even know what Tebow is throwing like right now.

Tebow IS the future of this team, too much of an investment and way too many things that need to be addressed high in the draft. With the exception of Luck (who we won't get), Tebow is the best chance we have.

Dumervil comes back next year. Champ gets re-signed.

We draft CB Peterson in 1st, and get a good 3-4 DE in 2nd, safety in 3rd.

^ That would be one hell of a defense. Champ & petey.

The team can have a lot of promise if we give Tebow the chance he deserves and not panic and draft a new qb

[Lancane]

This is crazy...we can't predict anything until we do see Tebow...which will happen eventually


and why would we draft Newton if we have Tebow? unless Tebow is an absolute mess when he plays, Cam is basically the same sort of qb with a slight improvement at a few things. But again, we don't even know what Tebow is throwing like right now.

Tebow IS the future of this team, too much of an investment and way too many things that need to be addressed high in the draft. With the exception of Luck (who we won't get), Tebow is the best chance we have.

Dumervil comes back next year. Champ gets re-signed.

We draft CB Peterson in 1st, and get a good 3-4 DE in 2nd, safety in 3rd.

^ That would be one hell of a defense. Champ & petey.

The team can have a lot of promise if we give Tebow the chance he deserves and not panic and draft a new qb

As it's been explained a thousand times over, usually a new regime wants a new quarterback, not one forced on them and it's become a trend within the league. You start telling head coaches that they have no say whatsoever and that they have to use this or that kid, and they don't feel he could be effective on his team...then you have a blueprint for disaster and even fewer will want to take the on the staff. I'm not saying that it's a guaranteed thing, but don't bet against anything at this point.

Champ Bailey is most likely gone after this season, we're rebuilding and he wants to win and win now, he doesn't have many years left in the game and as fans, most of us understand...he's done a lot for us, so I say let him go and sign up with someone that has a continual shot for a championship and is not rebuilding. As for Peterson, it would be an imbecilic move to draft a corner, you have to be able to get to the quarterback to even be worth a damn. No, it's time to focus on the defensive line the only skill position we should consider in the first should be a quarterback if, and only if the team feels Tebow is not the answer for this franchise.

[BroncoStud]

It sure would be nice if Joe Ellis had to ask Pat Bowlen if he was gone? Ellis is a joke, simply a joke, and the only one's laughing are the Raiders, Chiefs, and Chargers.

[rcsodak]

I think they are idiots if they don't use the last 3 games to evaluate him. Give the new regime some film before heading into the draft. They should have sat Orton for the 2nd half of the Cardinals game and started evaluating.

I hope that they don't think Orton is the future. I like Orton a lot, but I know he isn't the answer.

They can sit Orton now that he's injured. Before, though, it would have just split the locker room, hurt his value, et al.

Or, they could have said Orton lacked 'conditioning', sat him 3rd, and not worried about a thing, ala Shanny. :laugh: