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WARHORSE
08-31-2008, 02:45 PM
Just thought Id take a minute to point out the fact that the almighty Patriots all of a sudden havent been doing too well in the NFL drafts. They cut Chad Jackson today.....but hes not the only one. Or how about the boys in Ravensville? Indy? I mention that because of all the Shanahan critics that used to come in here bleating about now good Belichick or some other team was at drafting and how Shanahan is the draft suckster of the century.

I just had a thought.........a moment in and of itself........but where art thou now, O beleaguered fiends? Where doth thou blame lie now, eh? I havent heard thine belching in some time now..........a shame. Rob me of my crowing will you?;)

OF COURSE its the Goodman clan, you'll say, not wanting to give in to the evidence spanking you in the face in the form of a slab of BEEF formed of Cutler, Scheffler, Marshall, Harris, CLady, Royal, Hillis, Crowder, Moss, Thomas, Lickmystinger, Polumbus, Woodyard, Larsen, Kuper, Foxy, Paymah, and Williams, to name a few.

Give the props to the GMs if you have the nerve, but then at least give the props to Shanny as well, for gettin the job done.

:salute::salute::salute::salute::salute:


BRONCOS OR DIE WHELPS!!!

claymore
08-31-2008, 02:47 PM
Just thought Id take a minute to point out the fact that the almighty Patriots all of a sudden havent been doing too well in the NFL drafts. They cut Chad Jackson today.....but hes not the only one. Or how about the boys in Ravensville? Indy? I mention that because of all the Shanahan critics that used to come in here bleating about now good Belichick or some other team was at drafting and how Shanahan is the draft suckster of the century.

I just had a thought.........a moment in and of itself........but where art thou now, O beleaguered fiends? Where doth thou blame lie now, eh? I havent heard thine belching in some time now..........a shame. Rob me of my crowing will you?;)

OF COURSE its the Goodman clan, you'll say, not wanting to give in to the evidence spanking you in the face in the form of a slab of BEEF formed of Cutler, Scheffler, Marshall, Harris, CLady, Royal, Hillis, Crowder, Moss, Thomas, Lickmystinger, Polumbus, Woodyard, Larsen, Kuper, Foxy, Paymah, and Williams, to name a few.

Give the props to the GMs if you have the nerve, but then at least give the props to Shanny as well, for gettin the job done.

:salute::salute::salute::salute::salute:


BRONCOS OR DIE WHELPS!!!
I think Sundquists departure helped this. Seems our Gems have come out of the SE......

Tned
08-31-2008, 02:58 PM
Yep, good thread. One of the things Broncos fans seem to forget, that amongst all the winning seasons that Shanahan put up, he had to rebuild the team several times without ever going through a true rebuilding (multiple low, single digit wins seasons) period.

What that meant is that the team was always drafting in the high teens to high 20's, and focusing not on building for the future, but winning now, both in its free agent signings and drafting, which also sometimes meant reaching for players to fill a specific need, rather than just taking the best talent available, as teams in rebuildin phases often do.

Once the team got desimated in the AFCCG, and he had the extra draft picks to move up for his franchise QB, he appeared to make a switch in drafting strategy from win now, to build for the future, and as a result we had a couple down years (compounded by the lousy coordinating of Bates and Heimerdinger).

It's still early to call them three very successful draft classes, but so far '06, '07 and '08 are looking pretty good and have the team stocked with young talent in many areas.

On the line, we are going to be starting three first or second year players. If they pan out, then that is a 'young' nucleus to protect Cutler for the next 5-10 years.

DenBronx
08-31-2008, 02:59 PM
good post. a sign of a good drafting team is how many players that you have drafted over the last few years starting? denver has alot of draftees starting yet many of them are there for good depth like jmfw, larsen and woodyard. i must say that shannys last 3 or 4 drafts have been exceptionally well.

mikeys seems to be doing much better without ol ted around these days. however you really wont be able to know for sure if these rookies and last years rookies are really going to make an impact until the play a regular season game. it's sometimes a misconseption when you see them run a 70 int back for a td when they should have been tackled 4 or 5 times. id like to see jmfw do that against 1st teamers and then i'll say he is the real deal. i like royal but lets see what he can do against some top tier corners for 4 quarters.

G_Money
08-31-2008, 03:49 PM
Just thought Id take a minute to point out the fact that the almighty Patriots all of a sudden havent been doing too well in the NFL drafts. They cut Chad Jackson today.....but hes not the only one. Or how about the boys in Ravensville? Indy? I mention that because of all the Shanahan critics that used to come in here bleating about now good Belichick or some other team was at drafting and how Shanahan is the draft suckster of the century.

I just had a thought.........a moment in and of itself........but where art thou now, O beleaguered fiends? Where doth thou blame lie now, eh? I havent heard thine belching in some time now..........a shame. Rob me of my crowing will you?;)

OF COURSE its the Goodman clan, you'll say, not wanting to give in to the evidence spanking you in the face in the form of a slab of BEEF formed of Cutler, Scheffler, Marshall, Harris, CLady, Royal, Hillis, Crowder, Moss, Thomas, Lickmystinger, Polumbus, Woodyard, Larsen, Kuper, Foxy, Paymah, and Williams, to name a few.

Give the props to the GMs if you have the nerve, but then at least give the props to Shanny as well, for gettin the job done.

:salute::salute::salute::salute::salute:


BRONCOS OR DIE WHELPS!!!

1) We've had what appear to be 2 good drafts in the last 3. The DL/OL draft is dependent on several things, because right now our 2nd day DE (Dumervil) from 06 has outperformed all the DL from the 07 draft combined.

2) Before that we had half a decade of ineptitude. In a row. Don't talk to me about drafting 20th in the first round - that doesn't affect getting a 2nd or 3rd or 4th or 5th or 6th or 7th round player. It means we might not get an automatic starter out of the first round, but last season we had ONE of the guys from that series of drafts still on the team. One.

3) Now we're stocking up on kids who are making the team. Now either that's because our recent drafts are WAY better than our inept ones, or because we've failed so severely in both the draft AND FA that any idiot who can run on two legs can make this team. I believe it's the former, but there is some merit to the argument that it's not a sign of competence that college kids like Royal can beat out our FA wideout signings. Competence in the draft, maybe, but our recent FA history is looking as ugly as our earlier draft incompetence was.

4) Shanahan is still here. We couldn't get one contributor a draft for half a decade. And now all of a sudden we're able to draft them with much larger immediate success rates. So Shanahan suddenly figured out what he was doing wrong. Or at least it appears he may have. Whether that problem was Sundquist, or our scouting approach, or our desire for athletes over football players, et al is up for debate. Maybe it was all of them.

But do us all a favor and don't pretend the past didn't happen. I still think that 07 was a dangerous fallback to previous habits. A 3rd down specialist project with what could have been a guaranteed starter in the 1st round at safety if we'd gone another way. Flushing picks away to move around the draft to take these projects. An OL with back issues. Many of the hallmarks of former failed drafts reared their heads in that draft. I hope it turns out to be a successful draft despite that. But if you pretend we didn't squander several years with our drafting habits and that everything is fine now, then you can't figure out how to improve.

NE, Indy, SD, Dallas...they can all mess around in the draft now in certain slots and take risks, because they're chock full of talent, and FAs want to come play there for a chance at the ring. We used to be like that - Neil Smith comes to mind.

They've proven they can add talent through FA and the draft.

Shanahan was bragging a year ago that he NEEDED to flush draft picks down the drain because his team was just tooooooooooooooooo talented - he wouldn't have any place to put those worthless rookies.

A year later and we'd keep more rookies if we could because they're all more talented than the hacks that we had.

We didn't draft a safety because according to Sundquist it was obvious to everyone that we were set with Fergy and Lynch and didn't need to groom a replacement. Same with LB.

Our talent evaluation issues are NOT all in the past. I'm very glad we seem to be better at this drafting thing than we used to be. It's a REALLY good thing. But our rookie WR is better than any of the FA ones we paid good money for. Our undrafted LB might wind up starting sometime this year because our starting FA big-money addition continues to have injury problems. I'm glad we've added the young talent that COULD help us win our next SB, but all is not sunshine and roses just yet as far as the Broncos ability to add consistently good talent is concerned.

I'm glad for our good drafts. I like our young talent. I'm looking forward to this year and all years in the foreseeable future. But pretending all our talent evaluation issues have been solves is disingenuous at best and dangerous at worst.

The work that HAS been done is good and necessary if we ever want to win anything.

There is more work left to do. :salute:

~G

Lonestar
08-31-2008, 04:04 PM
1) We've had what appear to be 2 good drafts in the last 3. The DL/OL draft is dependent on several things, because right now our 2nd day DE (Dumervil) from 06 has outperformed all the DL from the 07 draft combined.

2) Before that we had half a decade of ineptitude. In a row. Don't talk to me about drafting 20th in the first round - that doesn't affect getting a 2nd or 3rd or 4th or 5th or 6th or 7th round player. It means we might not get an automatic starter out of the first round, but last season we had ONE of the guys from that series of drafts still on the team. One.

3) Now we're stocking up on kids who are making the team. Now either that's because our recent drafts are WAY better than our inept ones, or because we've failed so severely in both the draft AND FA that any idiot who can run on two legs can make this team. I believe it's the former, but there is some merit to the argument that it's not a sign of competence that college kids like Royal can beat out our FA wideout signings. Competence in the draft, maybe, but our recent FA history is looking as ugly as our earlier draft incompetence was.

4) Shanahan is still here. We couldn't get one contributor a draft for half a decade. And now all of a sudden we're able to draft them with much larger immediate success rates. So Shanahan suddenly figured out what he was doing wrong. Or at least it appears he may have. Whether that problem was Sundquist, or our scouting approach, or our desire for athletes over football players, et al is up for debate. Maybe it was all of them.

But do us all a favor and don't pretend the past didn't happen. I still think that 07 was a dangerous fallback to previous habits. A 3rd down specialist project with what could have been a guaranteed starter in the 1st round at safety if we'd gone another way. Flushing picks away to move around the draft to take these projects. An OL with back issues. Many of the hallmarks of former failed drafts reared their heads in that draft. I hope it turns out to be a successful draft despite that. But if you pretend we didn't squander several years with our drafting habits and that everything is fine now, then you can't figure out how to improve.

NE, Indy, SD, Dallas...they can all mess around in the draft now in certain slots and take risks, because they're chock full of talent, and FAs want to come play there for a chance at the ring. We used to be like that - Neil Smith comes to mind.

They've proven they can add talent through FA and the draft.

Shanahan was bragging a year ago that he NEEDED to flush draft picks down the drain because his team was just tooooooooooooooooo talented - he wouldn't have any place to put those worthless rookies.

A year later and we'd keep more rookies if we could because they're all more talented than the hacks that we had.

We didn't draft a safety because according to Sundquist it was obvious to everyone that we were set with Fergy and Lynch and didn't need to groom a replacement. Same with LB.

Our talent evaluation issues are NOT all in the past. I'm very glad we seem to be better at this drafting thing than we used to be. It's a REALLY good thing. But our rookie WR is better than any of the FA ones we paid good money for. Our undrafted LB might wind up starting sometime this year because our starting FA big-money addition continues to have injury problems. I'm glad we've added the young talent that COULD help us win our next SB, but all is not sunshine and roses just yet as far as the Broncos ability to add consistently good talent is concerned.

I'm glad for our good drafts. I like our young talent. I'm looking forward to this year and all years in the foreseeable future. But pretending all our talent evaluation issues have been solves is disingenuous at best and dangerous at worst.

The work that HAS been done is good and necessary if we ever want to win anything.

There is more work left to do. :salute:

~G


outstanding post thanks for saving me the time and effort to respond to initial post..

Let me add to what you said by saying when your so bereft of talent due to the really lousy drafts 1999-2005 it has not taken much to fill those spots left almost wide open due to injuries retirements..

As you said if they can walk talk and chew gum at the same time.:laugh::laugh: they could make the team..

The holes created over the past couple of years, because time caught up with the team were and in some cases IS still vast..

We still seem to have an issue at DT (no DEPTH) although it is much better than it was or had been since forever.. DEs leave a lot to be desired and safety is a place where we will have issues until we get some draftees in there next year.. and last but not least unless Niko comes around big time at MLB we will be looking strong next year on day one..

All is still not well in Dove Valley like some do not want to believe.

But then we can address this same thread at the bye week and see how was right and who was wrong..

Time will tell..

hamrob
08-31-2008, 04:27 PM
I've been a Shanny supporter all along and will continue to be until he retires. I think he's done an excellent job drafting recently. I do think that Sunquist was part of the problem the last several years.

Now, for the 2009 draft...I want to see a MLB with our #1...unless Shanny really feels that Larsen can be that guy. I will say, he reminds me somewhat of Gradishar. The guy is always around the ball and make tackles...I'll give him that.

Lonestar
08-31-2008, 04:31 PM
I've been a Shanny supporter all along and will continue to be until he retires. I think he's done an excellent job drafting recently. I do think that Sunquist was part of the problem the last several years.

Now, for the 2009 draft...I want to see a MLB with our #1...unless Shanny really feels that Larsen can be that guy. I will say, he reminds me somewhat of Gradishar. The guy is always around the ball and make tackles...I'll give him that.


Ted was a middle man he did not really make any real decisions..

The scouting system either sucked or someone above them (either Ted, coaching staff or mikey) did not want to listen to what they said that has to be a fact..

it has to be either or..

BTW overall I think he is great Offensive coach.. and probably a decent D coach because in order to play O you have to know how to beat the D.

I'm not all that sure he is a great HC/pseudo GM

hamrob
08-31-2008, 04:36 PM
outstanding post thanks for saving me the time and effort to respond to initial post..

Let me add to what you said by saying when your so bereft of talent due to the really lousy drafts 1999-2005 it has not taken much to fill those spots left almost wide open due to injuries retirements..

As you said if they can walk talk and chew gum at the same time.:laugh::laugh: they could make the team..

The holes created over the past couple of years, because time caught up with the team were and in some cases IS still vast..

We still seem to have an issue at DT (no DEPTH) although it is much better than it was or had been since forever.. DEs leave a lot to be desired and safety is a place where we will have issues until we get some draftees in there next year.. and last but not least unless Niko comes around big time at MLB we will be looking strong next year on day one..

All is still not well in Dove Valley like some do not want to believe.

But then we can address this same thread at the bye week and see how was right and who was wrong..

Time will tell..Yap, yap, Yap! Sure our drafts sucked between 1999 - 2005...but guess what we made it to the AFC Championship. So, in reality...whatever we were doing, we must not have been near as bad at it, as you'd like to believe. No...the sky wasn't falling!

Now, fastforward. We didn't quite get it done in 2005...so Shanny reshuffles and starts to rebuild. What's he do...he goes out and gets a Franchise QB to start with...and guess what...he starts to reload.

Now, here we sit in 2008 with plenty to be optimistic about and a real chance at getting back to the playoffs and staying there for years to come.

Naysay if you want to...you seem to love doing so, but the bottom line is...there haven't been many other coaches that compare to Shanny...not in the past as you like to live...nor in the present!

hamrob
08-31-2008, 04:46 PM
Ted was a middle man he did not really make any real decisions..

The scouting system either sucked or someone above them (either Ted, coaching staff or mikey) did not want to listen to what they said that has to be a fact..

it has to be either or..

BTW overall I think he is great Offensive coach.. and probably a decent D coach because in order to play O you have to know how to beat the D.

I'm not all that sure he is a great HC/pseudo GMI don't think we'll know the real story about Sunquist for many moons. But, if the best he can do is work for PFT...I think it's safe to say, not very many people were overally impressed with Ted.

As far as drafting future players - I'm not so sure we don't compare favorably to most other teams in the NFL. The problem (IMO) has been that we don't stick with the kids we draft. We give up too soon on them. Why? Because, hey we can go out and get a FA that is better than a Spencer Larsen today. The problem is...down the road...we never find out how good a guy like Larsen could have been, because we didn't give him the time necessary to develop.

That's not a poke at Shanny or the Broncos Organization. In fact, it's exactly the way they told us they did things. We want to win now...was the motto!

As soon as we drafted Cutler...that changed! Now, it's about building a team from the bottom up...surrounding Jay with youth that will be around for a while. I like the change. I'm sure you do to. But in a few more years, we'll be back to signing a few FA's here and there and rookies will have a hard time making the team again, because our talent level will have risen. That's the cycle of a well built team.

Lonestar
08-31-2008, 05:11 PM
Yap, yap, Yap! Sure our drafts sucked between 1999 - 2005...but guess what we made it to the AFC Championship. So, in reality...whatever we were doing, we must not have been near as bad at it, as you'd like to believe. No...the sky wasn't falling!

Now, fastforward. We didn't quite get it done in 2005...so Shanny reshuffles and starts to rebuild. What's he do...he goes out and gets a Franchise QB to start with...and guess what...he starts to reload.

Now, here we sit in 2008 with plenty to be optimistic about and a real chance at getting back to the playoffs and staying there for years to come.

Naysay if you want to...you seem to love doing so, but the bottom line is...there haven't been many other coaches that compare to Shanny...not in the past as you like to live...nor in the present!


We did alot with smoke and mirrors for many years everyone here seems to know that but a few..

Yes we did get tot eh AFCCG and got our asses handed to us..

Did mikey rebuild the team in 2006 not he brought ins few players to help get us to the playoffs but we all know that Dinger did not live up to Gary's high standards..

It took 2006 debacle for him to see that the team was crumbling around old timers, a failed DC strategy and nothing on the LOS either side..

that was when it was time to start the rebuilding mikey would have never in a hounded years used 3 of 4 draft choices on DL had it not been so decimated.. nor would he have spent the other choice on OL if he dd not see the hand writing on the wall.. bring in a new ORG holland that was way above the normal weight level was also a huge surprise..

Now think what you want about me and my thought process but open your eyes and go back and look at all of those really stinky choices from almost the inception of mikey coming to town..

The only two year all pros that came out of his DAFTEES were TD a really lucky choice, porti$$$ his replacement, all Wilson and price.. Other first day choices that were good Mobley, Gold, Kennedy, greasy (both debatable) and DJ Williams prior to 2005 that is all folks..

nothing from 2003
almost nothing from 2001

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?teamId=1400&type=team

Sorry but while I;m not Mary sunshine about mikeys DAFTS if you really look at them with a non biased eye you have to wonder how much better this team could have been with a few more quality picks and then being smart enough to keep a few that got away after their first term here.

To his credit he has done well drafting LB's excepting pierce, RB's and OLINE type non day two. But I think we all know that late day TWO OL picks are a thing of the past..

Beyond that he flunked at WR 17 of them, CB 9 prior to 2005, DL 9, QB 6 and many kickers..

Lonestar
08-31-2008, 05:21 PM
I don't think we'll know the real story about Sunquist for many moons. But, if the best he can do is work for PFT...I think it's safe to say, not very many people were overally impressed with Ted.

As far as drafting future players - I'm not so sure we don't compare favorably to most other teams in the NFL. The problem (IMO) has been that we don't stick with the kids we draft. We give up too soon on them. Why? Because, hey we can go out and get a FA that is better than a Spencer Larsen today. The problem is...down the road...we never find out how good a guy like Larsen could have been, because we didn't give him the time necessary to develop.

That's not a poke at Shanny or the Broncos Organization. In fact, it's exactly the way they told us they did things. We want to win now...was the motto!

As soon as we drafted Cutler...that changed! Now, it's about building a team from the bottom up...surrounding Jay with youth that will be around for a while. I like the change. I'm sure you do to. But in a few more years, we'll be back to signing a few FA's here and there and rookies will have a hard time making the team again, because our talent level will have risen. That's the cycle of a well built team.


A drafting study was done a year or so by a independent group and we were rated almost last if not last from 2000-2004.. there was another one by another group also last year in the late fall early winter that had mikey at like number 17 for his time here they are on here somewhere..

Has mikey etal improved over the past 3 years absolutely but frankly when your so bad it is not hard to have big improvement numbers..

The key will be this year while many think we have turned the corner and should be playoff bound I do not see it.. I think unless we have catastrophic injuries again that lose players forever and with a good draft and a couple of great FA pick ups next year we could be a perennial SB contender for 4-6 years..

Hoping for the best preparing for the worst..

omac
09-01-2008, 01:58 AM
On the 2007 draft, I think Marcus Thomas has performed pretty well considering where he was taken in the draft. As a rookie in a weak defensive line, Thomas still led their DTs in tackles. A writer thinks he has Sapp type skills.

No matter, he's at least been more consistent than anyone else at DT last season, so for a rookie to contribute that much for the place he was taken in the draft, that's a win.

Big question marks still on Thomas and Crowder, but this defensive line draft was heavily, heavily, heavily influenced by Bates. We'll find out soon if that was a good thing or a bad thing. Thomas seems good, though.

omac
09-01-2008, 02:09 AM
Right now, I think our offense is pretty okay. Lots of good young talent, and supposedly plugged up weaknesses (brought about by age) in the OL. We've already seen what Cutler, Marshall, and Scheffer can do; we're seeing flashes with Hall and Aldridge, and we have yet to see why Shanny is so impressed with Torrain.

With our defense, the guys we were expecting to work out may or may not ... Moss, Crowder ... Paymah and Foxy probably aren't really working out, so we brought in JMFW. If Moss and Crowder don't pan out this season, I wouldn't be surprised if we went for DE again next draft, even over MLB and safety.

WARHORSE
09-01-2008, 02:36 AM
1) We've had what appear to be 2 good drafts in the last 3. The DL/OL draft is dependent on several things, because right now our 2nd day DE (Dumervil) from 06 has outperformed all the DL from the 07 draft combined.

2) Before that we had half a decade of ineptitude. In a row. Don't talk to me about drafting 20th in the first round - that doesn't affect getting a 2nd or 3rd or 4th or 5th or 6th or 7th round player. It means we might not get an automatic starter out of the first round, but last season we had ONE of the guys from that series of drafts still on the team. One.

3) Now we're stocking up on kids who are making the team. Now either that's because our recent drafts are WAY better than our inept ones, or because we've failed so severely in both the draft AND FA that any idiot who can run on two legs can make this team. I believe it's the former, but there is some merit to the argument that it's not a sign of competence that college kids like Royal can beat out our FA wideout signings. Competence in the draft, maybe, but our recent FA history is looking as ugly as our earlier draft incompetence was.

4) Shanahan is still here. We couldn't get one contributor a draft for half a decade. And now all of a sudden we're able to draft them with much larger immediate success rates. So Shanahan suddenly figured out what he was doing wrong. Or at least it appears he may have. Whether that problem was Sundquist, or our scouting approach, or our desire for athletes over football players, et al is up for debate. Maybe it was all of them.

But do us all a favor and don't pretend the past didn't happen. I still think that 07 was a dangerous fallback to previous habits. A 3rd down specialist project with what could have been a guaranteed starter in the 1st round at safety if we'd gone another way. Flushing picks away to move around the draft to take these projects. An OL with back issues. Many of the hallmarks of former failed drafts reared their heads in that draft. I hope it turns out to be a successful draft despite that. But if you pretend we didn't squander several years with our drafting habits and that everything is fine now, then you can't figure out how to improve.

NE, Indy, SD, Dallas...they can all mess around in the draft now in certain slots and take risks, because they're chock full of talent, and FAs want to come play there for a chance at the ring. We used to be like that - Neil Smith comes to mind.

They've proven they can add talent through FA and the draft.

Shanahan was bragging a year ago that he NEEDED to flush draft picks down the drain because his team was just tooooooooooooooooo talented - he wouldn't have any place to put those worthless rookies.

A year later and we'd keep more rookies if we could because they're all more talented than the hacks that we had.

We didn't draft a safety because according to Sundquist it was obvious to everyone that we were set with Fergy and Lynch and didn't need to groom a replacement. Same with LB.

Our talent evaluation issues are NOT all in the past. I'm very glad we seem to be better at this drafting thing than we used to be. It's a REALLY good thing. But our rookie WR is better than any of the FA ones we paid good money for. Our undrafted LB might wind up starting sometime this year because our starting FA big-money addition continues to have injury problems. I'm glad we've added the young talent that COULD help us win our next SB, but all is not sunshine and roses just yet as far as the Broncos ability to add consistently good talent is concerned.

I'm glad for our good drafts. I like our young talent. I'm looking forward to this year and all years in the foreseeable future. But pretending all our talent evaluation issues have been solves is disingenuous at best and dangerous at worst.

The work that HAS been done is good and necessary if we ever want to win anything.

There is more work left to do. :salute:

~G

True maybe, but you miss the point Im trying to make. The point is the same one made when the drafts havent panned out. One, it doesnt matter how good you think you are, the draft is a crapshoot on so many levels, and you are LIMITED in how well you draft according to the talent available. DUH! Look back in the past, and there were certain drafts where the talent was so substantial, it didnt matter who you picked, you were all but assured a very good player. Yet, there are NO SURE THINGS. For talent evaluation, the fact is you are limited in your ability to choose 'the best players available', according to what the talent level is accross the board. If the top 25 players are pretty much busts, chances are, youre gonna pick a bust no matter your evaluation, based on team needs, and players available.

If you have Andre Ware, Curtis Enis, Gerard Warren, Tim Biakabatuka, and Andre Wadsworth ranked as the top five players.....and you have the second pick.............get the drift? Your success is also dictated by the needs of the teams drafting AROUND you along with the players available, because these are the teams most likely to trade with you.


SO IM SAYING, SINCE THE SHANNY BASHERS FELT THE NEED TO BASH WHEN THE DRAFTING WAS SUCKING, WHERE ARE YOU NOW? These are the same talking heads that were touting the drafting skills of Ozzie Newsome and Belichick, etc. Guess we cant hear that today can we?

Cause pretty much, the only guy left is Shanahan. Drafted well in the beginning, had some bad luck drafting in the following years, and now seems to be getting some dues back..............

The point is, when drafts dont go the best, stop crying about how badly SHanahan sucks, cause it aint all about player evaluation skills come draft day.

WARHORSE
09-01-2008, 03:01 AM
We did alot with smoke and mirrors for many years everyone here seems to know that but a few..

Yes we did get tot eh AFCCG and got our asses handed to us..

Did mikey rebuild the team in 2006 not he brought ins few players to help get us to the playoffs but we all know that Dinger did not live up to Gary's high standards..

It took 2006 debacle for him to see that the team was crumbling around old timers, a failed DC strategy and nothing on the LOS either side..

that was when it was time to start the rebuilding mikey would have never in a hounded years used 3 of 4 draft choices on DL had it not been so decimated.. nor would he have spent the other choice on OL if he dd not see the hand writing on the wall.. bring in a new ORG holland that was way above the normal weight level was also a huge surprise..

Now think what you want about me and my thought process but open your eyes and go back and look at all of those really stinky choices from almost the inception of mikey coming to town..

The only two year all pros that came out of his DAFTEES were TD a really lucky choice, porti$$$ his replacement, all Wilson and price.. Other first day choices that were good Mobley, Gold, Kennedy, greasy (both debatable) and DJ Williams prior to 2005 that is all folks..

nothing from 2003
almost nothing from 2001

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?teamId=1400&type=team

Sorry but while I;m not Mary sunshine about mikeys DAFTS if you really look at them with a non biased eye you have to wonder how much better this team could have been with a few more quality picks and then being smart enough to keep a few that got away after their first term here.

To his credit he has done well drafting LB's excepting pierce, RB's and OLINE type non day two. But I think we all know that late day TWO OL picks are a thing of the past..

Beyond that he flunked at WR 17 of them, CB 9 prior to 2005, DL 9, QB 6 and many kickers..

Once again Jwiz, I challenge you to go back in the drafts we had that werent so good, and tell us who YOU would have drafted, and youre gonna get to do that KNOWING who's careers panned out and whos didnt.

You wont, cause you cant go back in those drafts without picking every good player that came out, going against team needs at the time.

You talk about draft evaluation.........but dont acknowledge the draft equation: Draft position. Team needs. Players available. Teams choosing before and after you. Salary cap space. Free agent aquisitions. Free agent positional availability. Mental makeup of players. The influence of big money on young kids once the money hits their pockets.

There are a TON of factors BEYOND player ability evaluation that determines what happens once a kid hits the NFL, and if you think its college production, which is the biggest factor you have to draw from........youre mistaken. Cause some of the biggest big time college players are NFL busts, and some of the guys who are drafted late end up being big time.

Then you come in and tell us all how Shanahan sucks at it all.

You criticize the same guy who puts Mike Bell in the starting lineup, simply on what hes done come camp time. If anything, Shanahan brings more to the table than anyone around here, simply cause of what hes able to do with players AFTER he drafts them or aquires them. As IF drafting were a sweet science.

Pulease.

Shanny is the man.
Period.

And thats why Bowlen has him employed to date. Not being disillusioned by what Shanahan cannot control, but rather influenced by what the man CAN control.

Shanahan is one of the most thorough coaches ever to walk the NFL fields. And hes about to kick some butt in the next couple of years. The words 'Shanny has done well" coming over your lips would be like dragging a rug over a bed of nails.

To blame him drafting 9 bad corners, you need to go back and tell us which corners to draft. WRs? Tell me one team that has drafted well when it comes to WRs. WRs are the hardest players to evaluate moving into the NFL. Thats a fact. In fact, HALF the teams in the NFL have a problem with WRs right now, simply because there arent a whole lot of good ones out there.

Go ahead. Show us how dumb you can make Shanahan look, by going back in the bad drafts and telling us who Shanahan should have taken.

I dare ya.

(In a nice way.........lol)

WARHORSE
09-01-2008, 03:17 AM
Right now, I think our offense is pretty okay. Lots of good young talent, and supposedly plugged up weaknesses (brought about by age) in the OL. We've already seen what Cutler, Marshall, and Scheffer can do; we're seeing flashes with Hall and Aldridge, and we have yet to see why Shanny is so impressed with Torrain.

With our defense, the guys we were expecting to work out may or may not ... Moss, Crowder ... Paymah and Foxy probably aren't really working out, so we brought in JMFW. If Moss and Crowder don't pan out this season, I wouldn't be surprised if we went for DE again next draft, even over MLB and safety.

This is true. You draft for your scheme. Hopefully, Moss and Crowder pan out.

omac
09-01-2008, 07:16 AM
To add to your point about drafting "in hindsight", check out the 2006 draft rankings of one draft specialist ....

http://www.draftcountdown.com/archive/2006/2006-Rankings.php

According to him scouting college talent, Brandon Marshall was the 18th best WR coming out of the draft, definitely not top 5.

Now if you desperately needed a big-time WR, you might try to get one high up the rankings .... Santonio Holmes, Chad Jackson, Sinorice Moss, Derek Hagan, Demetrius Williams ... and you'd have a 1 in 5 chance of getting a good one; the others haven't really done much, and Chad Jackson, the supposedly 2nd best WR was already cut by NE. Of the top 10, only Holmes and Jennings are turning out to be big time players.

Yet Brandon Marshall is having at least as much success as both, despite being ranked the 18th best WR.

Same thing for 2002 .... http://www.draftcountdown.com/archive/2002/2002-Rankings.php

I hear arguments of why we picked Lelie, when Javon Walker was available. Lelie was ranked the best receiver, while Walker was ranked 6th. SD picked Reche Caldwell over Javon Walker, and it's obvious to anyone who's seen them play in the NFL who the better player was. I read a scouting report before that the knock on Walker was that he did great in his last year, so they weren't sure if he was one hit wonder.

People complained how bad a pick George Foster was for OT. He was the 3rd best OT ranked ... http://www.draftcountdown.com/archive/2003/2003-Rankings.php

Sure, Jordan Gross, the top pick, turned out great, but the next 2, Kwame Harris and George Foster, have been disappointments, despite their high ranking coming out of college. There are guys in the top 10 OTs that aren't even in the NFL anymore. One guy became a minister. At least Harris and Foster are starters, despite not being in their original teams.

The best anyone can do is look at their team needs based on the system they run, and try to use both the draft and free agency/trades to build a winning team.

If Marshall didn't pan out, people would be saying, why did we even draft a WR? Same thing with Scheffler. Ofcourse, now nobody's complaining about Cutler, but I remember ....

You can't draft in hindsight; everyone's a genius there. Also, you can't say "I picked this guy, and look he's doing great in another team, Denver should've gotten him", because you'll also have a bunch of picks you won't admit to that were busts.

NE wasn't a genius getting Tom Brady; if teams knew how good he'd really be in the NFL, he would've been picked #1, not in round 6.

Have some drafts been terrible? Definitely! The Broncos have had some misfires and some success, just like all other teams.

What they have been able to do, with a combination of the draft, free agency, and trades is build one of the most consistently winning teams in the NFL. And the guy at the helm of it all is Mike Shanahan, so criticize him for the bad picks, but give him his props for the good ones.

Scarface
09-01-2008, 07:54 AM
Just thought Id take a minute to point out the fact that the almighty Patriots all of a sudden havent been doing too well in the NFL drafts. They cut Chad Jackson today.....but hes not the only one.

The scary thing is fans wanted us to take him at #15 because he ran a fast 40 and won the skills competition on some made for tv event.:lol:

Fan in Exile
09-01-2008, 10:49 AM
1) We've had what appear to be 2 good drafts in the last 3. The DL/OL draft is dependent on several things, because right now our 2nd day DE (Dumervil) from 06 has outperformed all the DL from the 07 draft combined.

2) Before that we had half a decade of ineptitude. In a row. Don't talk to me about drafting 20th in the first round - that doesn't affect getting a 2nd or 3rd or 4th or 5th or 6th or 7th round player. It means we might not get an automatic starter out of the first round, but last season we had ONE of the guys from that series of drafts still on the team. One.

3) Now we're stocking up on kids who are making the team. Now either that's because our recent drafts are WAY better than our inept ones, or because we've failed so severely in both the draft AND FA that any idiot who can run on two legs can make this team. I believe it's the former, but there is some merit to the argument that it's not a sign of competence that college kids like Royal can beat out our FA wideout signings. Competence in the draft, maybe, but our recent FA history is looking as ugly as our earlier draft incompetence was.

4) Shanahan is still here. We couldn't get one contributor a draft for half a decade. And now all of a sudden we're able to draft them with much larger immediate success rates. So Shanahan suddenly figured out what he was doing wrong. Or at least it appears he may have. Whether that problem was Sundquist, or our scouting approach, or our desire for athletes over football players, et al is up for debate. Maybe it was all of them.

But do us all a favor and don't pretend the past didn't happen. I still think that 07 was a dangerous fallback to previous habits. A 3rd down specialist project with what could have been a guaranteed starter in the 1st round at safety if we'd gone another way. Flushing picks away to move around the draft to take these projects. An OL with back issues. Many of the hallmarks of former failed drafts reared their heads in that draft. I hope it turns out to be a successful draft despite that. But if you pretend we didn't squander several years with our drafting habits and that everything is fine now, then you can't figure out how to improve.

NE, Indy, SD, Dallas...they can all mess around in the draft now in certain slots and take risks, because they're chock full of talent, and FAs want to come play there for a chance at the ring. We used to be like that - Neil Smith comes to mind.

They've proven they can add talent through FA and the draft.

Shanahan was bragging a year ago that he NEEDED to flush draft picks down the drain because his team was just tooooooooooooooooo talented - he wouldn't have any place to put those worthless rookies.

A year later and we'd keep more rookies if we could because they're all more talented than the hacks that we had.

We didn't draft a safety because according to Sundquist it was obvious to everyone that we were set with Fergy and Lynch and didn't need to groom a replacement. Same with LB.

Our talent evaluation issues are NOT all in the past. I'm very glad we seem to be better at this drafting thing than we used to be. It's a REALLY good thing. But our rookie WR is better than any of the FA ones we paid good money for. Our undrafted LB might wind up starting sometime this year because our starting FA big-money addition continues to have injury problems. I'm glad we've added the young talent that COULD help us win our next SB, but all is not sunshine and roses just yet as far as the Broncos ability to add consistently good talent is concerned.

I'm glad for our good drafts. I like our young talent. I'm looking forward to this year and all years in the foreseeable future. But pretending all our talent evaluation issues have been solves is disingenuous at best and dangerous at worst.

The work that HAS been done is good and necessary if we ever want to win anything.

There is more work left to do. :salute:

~G

Anybody who complains about a draft that one year later got us two starters and two back-ups at positions of needs, should seriously check back in with how things work here on earth.

I get your man love for whichever safety you wanted that shanny didn't pick, but Pass Rush is still more important than safety. So I would still say that the Jarvis Moss pick was the right one.

Those back problems you complain about don't seem to be the same ones that have given us fits in the past since he's on the field and he was a third round pick for us.

Those picks weren't flushed away we got Thomas for a third, fifth, and sixth which is a great deal for a starting DT.

I don't think we needed to trade that fifth rounder to the Jags to get Moss, but that's a pretty minor complaint all told.

To say that Dumerville has out performed all the D-Line in that draft put together also shows some seriously unrealistic expectations. Let's at least see how this season plays out before we start throwing people under the bus.

WARHORSE
09-01-2008, 10:51 AM
The scary thing is fans wanted us to take him at #15 because he ran a fast 40 and won the skills competition on some made for tv event.:lol:

Not to mention that the vaunted Pats traded up ahead of us to get Jackson because they thought we were going to take him.:salute:

WARHORSE
09-01-2008, 10:55 AM
To add to your point about drafting "in hindsight", check out the 2006 draft rankings of one draft specialist ....

http://www.draftcountdown.com/archive/2006/2006-Rankings.php

According to him scouting college talent, Brandon Marshall was the 18th best WR coming out of the draft, definitely not top 5.

Now if you desperately needed a big-time WR, you might try to get one high up the rankings .... Santonio Holmes, Chad Jackson, Sinorice Moss, Derek Hagan, Demetrius Williams ... and you'd have a 1 in 5 chance of getting a good one; the others haven't really done much, and Chad Jackson, the supposedly 2nd best WR was already cut by NE. Of the top 10, only Holmes and Jennings are turning out to be big time players.

Yet Brandon Marshall is having at least as much success as both, despite being ranked the 18th best WR.

Same thing for 2002 .... http://www.draftcountdown.com/archive/2002/2002-Rankings.php

I hear arguments of why we picked Lelie, when Javon Walker was available. Lelie was ranked the best receiver, while Walker was ranked 6th. SD picked Reche Caldwell over Javon Walker, and it's obvious to anyone who's seen them play in the NFL who the better player was. I read a scouting report before that the knock on Walker was that he did great in his last year, so they weren't sure if he was one hit wonder.

People complained how bad a pick George Foster was for OT. He was the 3rd best OT ranked ... http://www.draftcountdown.com/archive/2003/2003-Rankings.php

Sure, Jordan Gross, the top pick, turned out great, but the next 2, Kwame Harris and George Foster, have been disappointments, despite their high ranking coming out of college. There are guys in the top 10 OTs that aren't even in the NFL anymore. One guy became a minister. At least Harris and Foster are starters, despite not being in their original teams.

The best anyone can do is look at their team needs based on the system they run, and try to use both the draft and free agency/trades to build a winning team.

If Marshall didn't pan out, people would be saying, why did we even draft a WR? Same thing with Scheffler. Ofcourse, now nobody's complaining about Cutler, but I remember ....

You can't draft in hindsight; everyone's a genius there. Also, you can't say "I picked this guy, and look he's doing great in another team, Denver should've gotten him", because you'll also have a bunch of picks you won't admit to that were busts.

NE wasn't a genius getting Tom Brady; if teams knew how good he'd really be in the NFL, he would've been picked #1, not in round 6.

Have some drafts been terrible? Definitely! The Broncos have had some misfires and some success, just like all other teams.

What they have been able to do, with a combination of the draft, free agency, and trades is build one of the most consistently winning teams in the NFL. And the guy at the helm of it all is Mike Shanahan, so criticize him for the bad picks, but give him his props for the good ones.


I like you.:coffee:


All I know is, we traded up to get Jay Cutler. Its been happy feet ever since. The fact that Brandon came with him........brought in the 'Jazz hands'.:D

ktrain
09-01-2008, 11:00 AM
To add to your point about drafting "in hindsight", check out the 2006 draft rankings of one draft specialist ....

http://www.draftcountdown.com/archive/2006/2006-Rankings.php

According to him scouting college talent, Brandon Marshall was the 18th best WR coming out of the draft, definitely not top 5.

Now if you desperately needed a big-time WR, you might try to get one high up the rankings .... Santonio Holmes, Chad Jackson, Sinorice Moss, Derek Hagan, Demetrius Williams ... and you'd have a 1 in 5 chance of getting a good one; the others haven't really done much, and Chad Jackson, the supposedly 2nd best WR was already cut by NE. Of the top 10, only Holmes and Jennings are turning out to be big time players.

Yet Brandon Marshall is having at least as much success as both, despite being ranked the 18th best WR.

Same thing for 2002 .... http://www.draftcountdown.com/archive/2002/2002-Rankings.php

I hear arguments of why we picked Lelie, when Javon Walker was available. Lelie was ranked the best receiver, while Walker was ranked 6th. SD picked Reche Caldwell over Javon Walker, and it's obvious to anyone who's seen them play in the NFL who the better player was. I read a scouting report before that the knock on Walker was that he did great in his last year, so they weren't sure if he was one hit wonder.

People complained how bad a pick George Foster was for OT. He was the 3rd best OT ranked ... http://www.draftcountdown.com/archive/2003/2003-Rankings.php

Sure, Jordan Gross, the top pick, turned out great, but the next 2, Kwame Harris and George Foster, have been disappointments, despite their high ranking coming out of college. There are guys in the top 10 OTs that aren't even in the NFL anymore. One guy became a minister. At least Harris and Foster are starters, despite not being in their original teams.

The best anyone can do is look at their team needs based on the system they run, and try to use both the draft and free agency/trades to build a winning team.

If Marshall didn't pan out, people would be saying, why did we even draft a WR? Same thing with Scheffler. Ofcourse, now nobody's complaining about Cutler, but I remember ....

You can't draft in hindsight; everyone's a genius there. Also, you can't say "I picked this guy, and look he's doing great in another team, Denver should've gotten him", because you'll also have a bunch of picks you won't admit to that were busts.

NE wasn't a genius getting Tom Brady; if teams knew how good he'd really be in the NFL, he would've been picked #1, not in round 6.

Have some drafts been terrible? Definitely! The Broncos have had some misfires and some success, just like all other teams.

What they have been able to do, with a combination of the draft, free agency, and trades is build one of the most consistently winning teams in the NFL. And the guy at the helm of it all is Mike Shanahan, so criticize him for the bad picks, but give him his props for the good ones.

Well said Awesome post. It is so easy for people to bash away, especially with the benefit of hindsight. Every Franchise has draft busts....we are no different.

What I like about Shanny and Bowlen is that they don't make excuses and always seem to field competitive teams. We are truly fortunate to have such a great owner as Bowlen, he has the vision and foresight to stick with a winner even when a few (half dozen) drafts don't turn out and we have a couple of down years

Lonestar
09-01-2008, 11:19 AM
Once again Jwiz, I challenge you to go back in the drafts we had that werent so good, and tell us who YOU would have drafted, and youre gonna get to do that KNOWING who's careers panned out and whos didnt.

You wont, cause you cant go back in those drafts without picking every good player that came out, going against team needs at the time.

You talk about draft evaluation.........but dont acknowledge the draft equation: Draft position. Team needs. Players available. Teams choosing before and after you. Salary cap space. Free agent aquisitions. Free agent positional availability. Mental makeup of players. The influence of big money on young kids once the money hits their pockets.

There are a TON of factors BEYOND player ability evaluation that determines what happens once a kid hits the NFL, and if you think its college production, which is the biggest factor you have to draw from........youre mistaken. Cause some of the biggest big time college players are NFL busts, and some of the guys who are drafted late end up being big time.

Then you come in and tell us all how Shanahan sucks at it all.

You criticize the same guy who puts Mike Bell in the starting lineup, simply on what hes done come camp time. If anything, Shanahan brings more to the table than anyone around here, simply cause of what hes able to do with players AFTER he drafts them or aquires them. As IF drafting were a sweet science.

Pulease.

Shanny is the man.
Period.

And thats why Bowlen has him employed to date. Not being disillusioned by what Shanahan cannot control, but rather influenced by what the man CAN control.

Shanahan is one of the most thorough coaches ever to walk the NFL fields. And hes about to kick some butt in the next couple of years. The words 'Shanny has done well" coming over your lips would be like dragging a rug over a bed of nails.

To blame him drafting 9 bad corners, you need to go back and tell us which corners to draft. WRs? Tell me one team that has drafted well when it comes to WRs. WRs are the hardest players to evaluate moving into the NFL. Thats a fact. In fact, HALF the teams in the NFL have a problem with WRs right now, simply because there arent a whole lot of good ones out there.

Go ahead. Show us how dumb you can make Shanahan look, by going back in the bad drafts and telling us who Shanahan should have taken.

I dare ya.

(In a nice way.........lol)

I had done this on mania and brought out WHO I'd have drafted when and how it affected the next couple of drafts.

Sorry but right now I do not have time (going out of town this coming weekend and have lots of work pile up that need to clear before doing so.) to go back an dupe it.. nor will I go back to mania to try and retrieve is.. A personal thing..

Your welcome to go over and do a search if you wish.. BUT be for warned that there are ton of posts on the subject over there. Trust me when I say he screwed the pooch on several drafts and had he taken other players IE Walker for ashley things most likely would have worked out differently.. but then hind site is wonderful.. but let me also add that many other fans wanted alot of these players also and many of them would have been a better fit..

For a quick example ashley was a speed merchant that needed a big arm to make him effective.. Now I liked Jake but a big arm was not his strong point.. Javon Walker however did not need a big arm long distance to be effective.. Mikey is obsessed with speed therefore we got ashley instead of Javon. Ashley that was not a great route runner, had trouble shedding LOS coverage, nor blocker, but he was fast at top speed.

That said coupled with a bad cold/bronchitis and my need to get out of town. For the time being we will have to agree to disagree..

It is fine for you to have a man crush on mikey just allow those of us that do not think he walks on water to feel that way..

IMO Pat made stupid statement with the "contract for life" debacle and now is torn because he had to reign in mikey on the draft verses FA way of building a team..

Later..... I will get back to you with how I would have drafted. When I have the time to do, but then you can log in on mania and find it yourself..

Lonestar
09-01-2008, 11:22 AM
Well said Awesome post. It is so easy for people to bash away, especially with the benefit of hindsight. Every Franchise has draft busts....we are no different.

What I like about Shanny and Bowlen is that they don't make excuses and always seem to field competitive teams. We are truly fortunate to have such a great owner as Bowlen, he has the vision and foresight to stick with a winner even when a few (half dozen) drafts don't turn out and we have a couple of down years


for what it worth that is about half of the total drafts he was responsible for..

had he not had such great talent from the super bowl years. Much of which he inherited, would you loved him so?

Retired_Member_001
09-01-2008, 11:23 AM
http://bighugelabs.com/flickr/output/motivator8043794.jpg

hamrob
09-01-2008, 12:30 PM
for what it worth that is about half of the total drafts he was responsible for..

had he not had such great talent from the super bowl years. Much of which he inherited, would you loved him so?Much of which was inherited? John Elway can thank his lucky stars that Bowlen hired Shanny in 95. Shanny went out and got Zim, Stinky, Tony Jones, Neil Smith etc. Shanny was responsible for drafting Terrell Davis and bringing in Eddie Mac. and although santa claus drafted Rod Smith...Shanny molded him into a hall of famer...the same can be said for Shannon Sharpe.

Have you totally lost your mind. Shanny came in and built the team around Elway that Dan Reeves had no clue how to build.

With all due respect to Dan Reeves....if he would have built around Elway...instead of trying to build a team and have Elway play a role...we would probably have 2-3 more championships in our trophy case.

I think it's highly likely that (with Shanny) we get a couple more Championships. It's amazing just how ungreatful some fans can be!

Lonestar
09-01-2008, 12:46 PM
Much of which was inherited? John Elway can thank his lucky stars that Bowlen hired Shanny in 95. Shanny went out and got Zim, Stinky, Tony Jones, Neil Smith etc. Shanny was responsible for drafting Terrell Davis and bringing in Eddie Mac. and although santa claus drafted Rod Smith...Shanny molded him into a hall of famer...the same can be said for Shannon Sharpe.

Have you totally lost your mind. Shanny came in and built the team around Elway that Dan Reeves had no clue how to build.

With all due respect to Dan Reeves....if he would have built around Elway...instead of trying to build a team and have Elway play a role...we would probably have 2-3 more championships in our trophy case.

I think it's highly likely that (with Shanny) we get a couple more Championships. It's amazing just how ungreatful some fans can be!

You forgot Sharpe, Zimmerman was already here and danny boy was indeed a clown not doubt..

Maybe now we will see more championships since mikey is not relying heavily on expensive FA quick fixes to fill the failed holes that prior DAFTING caused..

he got lucky with TD and did not have a clue how good he was until TC when he was all over the filed on ST's.

As far as developing talent he was great no doubt it is PICKING the talent in the first place I have ISSUES with. Have really never said he was not a great coach (except when his team is flat and not prepared)

Get it straight mikey was responsible for screwing the pooch for all of those terrible DAFTS..

if the scouts were bad, he hired them
if they were good then whoever made the evaluations was bad
if it was not scouting or coaches evaluation, then it had to be the guy/guys making the pick, who all reported to mikey..


those are facts .. not something that is debatable..

The only person that does not report to Mikey was Pat and I never heard of him intervening before this year on player acquisitions..

hope this is coherent as I:m on codeine right now for bronchitis..

Fan in Exile
09-01-2008, 01:05 PM
You forgot Sharpe, Zimmerman was already here and danny boy was indeed a clown not doubt..

Maybe now we will see more championships since mikey is not relying heavily on expensive FA quick fixes to fill the failed holes that prior DAFTING caused..

he got lucky with TD and did not have a clue how good he was until TC when he was all over the filed on ST's.

As far as developing talent he was great no doubt it is PICKING the talent in the first place I have ISSUES with. Have really never said he was not a great coach (except when his team is flat and not prepared)

Get it straight mikey was responsible for screwing the pooch for all of those terrible DAFTS..

if the scouts were bad, he hired them
if they were good then whoever made the evaluations was bad
if it was not scouting or coaches evaluation, then it had to be the guy/guys making the pick, who all reported to mikey..


those are facts .. not something that is debatable..

The only person that does not report to Mikey was Pat and I never heard of him intervening before this year on player acquisitions..

hope this is coherent as I:m on codeine right now for bronchitis..

By your logic Pat is still responsible, he's the owner he's the one who should have stepped in. Just because you never heard of it happening doesn't mean that it didn't, but that would really be the problem though, that he didn't step in.

Hope you feel better.

G_Money
09-01-2008, 03:02 PM
Anybody who complains about a draft that one year later got us two starters and two back-ups at positions of needs, should seriously check back in with how things work here on earth.

I get your man love for whichever safety you wanted that shanny didn't pick, but Pass Rush is still more important than safety. So I would still say that the Jarvis Moss pick was the right one.

Those back problems you complain about don't seem to be the same ones that have given us fits in the past since he's on the field and he was a third round pick for us.

Those picks weren't flushed away we got Thomas for a third, fifth, and sixth which is a great deal for a starting DT.

I don't think we needed to trade that fifth rounder to the Jags to get Moss, but that's a pretty minor complaint all told.

To say that Dumerville has out performed all the D-Line in that draft put together also shows some seriously unrealistic expectations. Let's at least see how this season plays out before we start throwing people under the bus.

Our DL WAS the most pathetic part of the team last year, wasn't it? That same DL that we drafted and then brought in a whole lot of guys to try to shore up. The same DL where we have a starter and two backups.

The same DL that cost us 3 picks for Moss (the 1st rounder he was drafted with plus a 3rd rounder and 6th rounder to move up) and 3 picks for Thomas (6th and 7th round picks that year, plus a 3rd rounder this year). If we hadn't traded for Moss we wouldn't have had to trade AGAIN to get Thomas.

Now DL is notoriously hard to judge as far as immediate returns go. I haven't claimed they won't work out. But claiming they HAVE worked out because there is a starter and reserves among them is like claiming Q was a success at RB because he started. He DID start - because everyone else around him fell down and got broken.

Harris is starting for us right now. I think that's great. If he works out that'll be terrific. Pardon me for not jumping up and down because excess jumping could require him to have yet another back surgery. Like the one he had in college, and the one he had while on our team last year.

There is a very realistic chance that 2 years from now nobody from that draft is still on the team. I may not understand how "things work here on earth" but I would consider that "failure." If they're all still here and contributing, or even excelling, then that would be considered "obvious success." In between that is room for argument.

The '06 draft was outstanding by any measure. It's not the standard, because a draft that gets you the QB of the future, a Pro Bowl caliber WR, your starting TE and DE and OG and ANOTHER WR and KR who is playing well in this league...that's totally ridiculous and one of the best drafts anyone could ever have.

The '08 draft definitely shows early promise - before we've ever played a real game obviously, but we kept all our draftpicks and still have them all around the team, which is a far cry from the camp cuts we used to routinely get.

The '07 draft is way more uncertain. Moss could be a Pro-Bowler or he could be cut. Thomas could get suspended by the league for doing more stupid stuff or he could dominate in the middle. Crowder could be a good rotational piece or he could be out on the street in favor of a vet retread. Harris could be the next Lepsis or he could be in surgery, never to see the field again with a fused back.

But I think I'll let that one play out before I add it to Shanahan's recent list of great success (2006) or good promise (2008).

Still, I'm very pleased overall with the last 3 years. We've added a lot of players, many of whom are contributing in major ways.

But you guys who think we've been on top of the mountain the last decade instead of unable to win more than one playoff game since Elway left...you do remember all the failed drafts and big-money FA signings, right? :confused:

Shanahan's a great coach. I hope Kubiak leaving and the subsequent Heimerdinger disaster has provided him with the necessary motivation to remember how to be an innovative coach again, and that the Bates disaster makes him remember that an attacking defense and great offense can still win big in this league.

Topping that with a fix of what appears to me to have been the Sundquist disaster is not just icing on the cake. It gives us a very real chance to be a contender again instead of hoping the other guys fall down in the playoffs and we can sneak past them.

We have a real QB again.
We have legit offensive weapons.
We HOPEFULLY will be a defense that takes it to the other guys instead of bending over.
We still have Shanahan, who has been a great offensive mind. It looks he may be again.

As annoyed as I am some choices in the past, as long as they STAY in the past what's not to like? The present looks good, the future looks bright, and old mistakes look like they're being rectified.

Better late than never. Bring on 2008. I want my Broncos football again - the kind where people are afraid to step on the field against us. Where our running game is unstoppable and our passing attack leads to quick scores. Where our defense plays the last 3 quarters of the game trying to remove the QBs head from his body because nobody runs on us and they have to pass to catch up. Where the stadium makes you deaf and your head rings three days later from all the commotion.

I've had enough of the down time after Elway departed. No more quick starts that fade at the finish line and stumble futilely into the post-season - or home for New Year's.

If we're getting the talent right and we've got the coaching, then bring on Bronco domination. The rest of the league has had it easy for long enough.

~G

omac
09-01-2008, 10:52 PM
Real nice post, G_Money! :salute:

I just wanna make sure that if Shanny gets blamed for the duds, he should get credit for the studs.

Jrwiz said that Shanny got a lucky pick with TD, that he didn't expect him to be that good. Fair enough about being that good, but Shanny's shown that he can spot RB talent better than most teams, so although he might not have thought TD to be that good, he did see some RB talent in him that other teams didn't.

I've already heard how Cutler wasn't Shanny's pick, but Heimerdinger's, even though it was Shanny who was getting a scouting report about him from his friend, Jeff Fischer. I vaguely remember seeing a post where Dumerville was Coyer's pick, not Shanny's. So if it's a good pick, it was someone else's, but if it was a bad pick, it was Shanny's.

Clady is Shanny's pick, and a lot of people complained about the pick (I was one of them in a minor way; I wanted Williams, who's injured now, and has a history of back problems :D ). If Clady turns out great, as he seems to be looking, Shanny should get credit for that pick. If he's a bust, Shanny should get blame too.

I wouldn't wanna hear how Cutler, Marshall, Scheffler, and Dumerville weren't his picks, or that he just got lucky in those picks.

Fan in Exile
09-02-2008, 07:40 AM
Our DL WAS the most pathetic part of the team last year, wasn't it? That same DL that we drafted and then brought in a whole lot of guys to try to shore up. The same DL where we have a starter and two backups.

The same DL that cost us 3 picks for Moss (the 1st rounder he was drafted with plus a 3rd rounder and 6th rounder to move up) and 3 picks for Thomas (6th and 7th round picks that year, plus a 3rd rounder this year). If we hadn't traded for Moss we wouldn't have had to trade AGAIN to get Thomas.

Now DL is notoriously hard to judge as far as immediate returns go. I haven't claimed they won't work out. But claiming they HAVE worked out because there is a starter and reserves among them is like claiming Q was a success at RB because he started. He DID start - because everyone else around him fell down and got broken.

Harris is starting for us right now. I think that's great. If he works out that'll be terrific. Pardon me for not jumping up and down because excess jumping could require him to have yet another back surgery. Like the one he had in college, and the one he had while on our team last year.

There is a very realistic chance that 2 years from now nobody from that draft is still on the team. I may not understand how "things work here on earth" but I would consider that "failure." If they're all still here and contributing, or even excelling, then that would be considered "obvious success." In between that is room for argument.

The '06 draft was outstanding by any measure. It's not the standard, because a draft that gets you the QB of the future, a Pro Bowl caliber WR, your starting TE and DE and OG and ANOTHER WR and KR who is playing well in this league...that's totally ridiculous and one of the best drafts anyone could ever have.

The '08 draft definitely shows early promise - before we've ever played a real game obviously, but we kept all our draftpicks and still have them all around the team, which is a far cry from the camp cuts we used to routinely get.

The '07 draft is way more uncertain. Moss could be a Pro-Bowler or he could be cut. Thomas could get suspended by the league for doing more stupid stuff or he could dominate in the middle. Crowder could be a good rotational piece or he could be out on the street in favor of a vet retread. Harris could be the next Lepsis or he could be in surgery, never to see the field again with a fused back.

But I think I'll let that one play out before I add it to Shanahan's recent list of great success (2006) or good promise (2008).

Still, I'm very pleased overall with the last 3 years. We've added a lot of players, many of whom are contributing in major ways.

But you guys who think we've been on top of the mountain the last decade instead of unable to win more than one playoff game since Elway left...you do remember all the failed drafts and big-money FA signings, right? :confused:

Shanahan's a great coach. I hope Kubiak leaving and the subsequent Heimerdinger disaster has provided him with the necessary motivation to remember how to be an innovative coach again, and that the Bates disaster makes him remember that an attacking defense and great offense can still win big in this league.

Topping that with a fix of what appears to me to have been the Sundquist disaster is not just icing on the cake. It gives us a very real chance to be a contender again instead of hoping the other guys fall down in the playoffs and we can sneak past them.

We have a real QB again.
We have legit offensive weapons.
We HOPEFULLY will be a defense that takes it to the other guys instead of bending over.
We still have Shanahan, who has been a great offensive mind. It looks he may be again.

As annoyed as I am some choices in the past, as long as they STAY in the past what's not to like? The present looks good, the future looks bright, and old mistakes look like they're being rectified.

Better late than never. Bring on 2008. I want my Broncos football again - the kind where people are afraid to step on the field against us. Where our running game is unstoppable and our passing attack leads to quick scores. Where our defense plays the last 3 quarters of the game trying to remove the QBs head from his body because nobody runs on us and they have to pass to catch up. Where the stadium makes you deaf and your head rings three days later from all the commotion.

I've had enough of the down time after Elway departed. No more quick starts that fade at the finish line and stumble futilely into the post-season - or home for New Year's.

If we're getting the talent right and we've got the coaching, then bring on Bronco domination. The rest of the league has had it easy for long enough.

~G

It's amazing you wrote all that stuff after quoting my post and barely respond to any of my points. I never said that we were at the top of any mountain as a matter of fact we've got some serious holes that need to be fixed still, don't lump everyone who says good things about the team into some kind of pie in the sky fantasy group.

Let me repeat the point that I made we are one year out and have two starters and two backups that's great for one draft however those picks were added or combined. were we stand now is great, your point about Q completely doesn't apply to the two guys we've got starting, have you paid any attention to the team?

Your bitching about how they might all fail just shows that your just grasping at straws for reasons to complain.

broncosinindy
09-02-2008, 10:40 AM
Just thought Id take a minute to point out the fact that the almighty Patriots all of a sudden havent been doing too well in the NFL drafts. They cut Chad Jackson today.....but hes not the only one. Or how about the boys in Ravensville? Indy? I mention that because of all the Shanahan critics that used to come in here bleating about now good Belichick or some other team was at drafting and how Shanahan is the draft suckster of the century.

I just had a thought.........a moment in and of itself........but where art thou now, O beleaguered fiends? Where doth thou blame lie now, eh? I havent heard thine belching in some time now..........a shame. Rob me of my crowing will you?;)

OF COURSE its the Goodman clan, you'll say, not wanting to give in to the evidence spanking you in the face in the form of a slab of BEEF formed of Cutler, Scheffler, Marshall, Harris, CLady, Royal, Hillis, Crowder, Moss, Thomas, Lickmystinger, Polumbus, Woodyard, Larsen, Kuper, Foxy, Paymah, and Williams, to name a few.

Give the props to the GMs if you have the nerve, but then at least give the props to Shanny as well, for gettin the job done.

:salute::salute::salute::salute::salute:


BRONCOS OR DIE WHELPS!!!
You know i used to be on the hype that said it was all shanny. I really do believe that shanny is not the tyranical person he is petrayed i think he takes alot of input from everyone on the staff. and impliments it.. you can tell just by the way he has drafted and how diverse it is. i will say this Jarvis Moss wass a total fit for the scheme bates had...

WARHORSE
09-02-2008, 11:29 AM
I had done this on mania and brought out WHO I'd have drafted when and how it affected the next couple of drafts.

Sorry but right now I do not have time (going out of town this coming weekend and have lots of work pile up that need to clear before doing so.) to go back an dupe it.. nor will I go back to mania to try and retrieve is.. A personal thing..

Your welcome to go over and do a search if you wish.. BUT be for warned that there are ton of posts on the subject over there. Trust me when I say he screwed the pooch on several drafts and had he taken other players IE Walker for ashley things most likely would have worked out differently.. but then hind site is wonderful.. but let me also add that many other fans wanted alot of these players also and many of them would have been a better fit..

For a quick example ashley was a speed merchant that needed a big arm to make him effective.. Now I liked Jake but a big arm was not his strong point.. Javon Walker however did not need a big arm long distance to be effective.. Mikey is obsessed with speed therefore we got ashley instead of Javon. Ashley that was not a great route runner, had trouble shedding LOS coverage, nor blocker, but he was fast at top speed.

That said coupled with a bad cold/bronchitis and my need to get out of town. For the time being we will have to agree to disagree..

It is fine for you to have a man crush on mikey just allow those of us that do not think he walks on water to feel that way..

IMO Pat made stupid statement with the "contract for life" debacle and now is torn because he had to reign in mikey on the draft verses FA way of building a team..

Later..... I will get back to you with how I would have drafted. When I have the time to do, but then you can log in on mania and find it yourself..

Your insight is incredible Jrwiz. ;)

I really would hate for you to show up here with those draft hindsights, because I would chew them up like a rabid pitbull..........and then some.:D

I dont want to go there, so yeah.....lets just say we disagree.

But its not a man crush I have, and expect people to critique Shanny which is fair. I just know there is only so much you can do to try and limit the variables that determine whether your draft is a successful one or not, but its all you can do.....limit the variables. There are no sure things in the draft, and there is no sure draft evaluation protocol that is foolproof in determining whether a player makes it on the next level.

Therefore, for those who belittle Shanahans abilities in drafting when we get little in return......do so expecting too much from the mind of the master. But if youre gonna choose to crank on him for draft failure...............then have the class to pump him up with draft success.

PEACE!


:coffee:

NightTrainLayne
09-02-2008, 11:32 AM
I love reading a thread where I can salute both sides of a contenious argument for making good points.

War, I love your enthusiasm, and you (and others) make a great, and valid point that if Shanny gets the blame for poor drafts he has to get the credit for good ones. You can't continually give Shanny all the blame for what goes wrong, and ignore the tremendous amount of success the team has had during his tenure.

G, you're analysis is also right on the money. It's simply too early to know how all of this ('07, '08) drafts will shake out. I know that if they come out well that you will give proper credit where it is due, but if not, you'll hold those responsible's feet to the fire as well.

WARHORSE
09-02-2008, 11:43 AM
I love reading a thread where I can salute both sides of a contenious argument for making good points.

War, I love your enthusiasm, and you (and others) make a great, and valid point that if Shanny gets the blame for poor drafts he has to get the credit for good ones. You can't continually give Shanny all the blame for what goes wrong, and ignore the tremendous amount of success the team has had during his tenure.

G, you're analysis is also right on the money. It's simply too early to know how all of this ('07, '08) drafts will shake out. I know that if they come out well that you will give proper credit where it is due, but if not, you'll hold those responsible's feet to the fire as well.

Did you REALLY salute G and Wiz? ;) lol........


Seriously.....its all good. And I appreciate men like Jrwiz who can come to the conclusion that we simply disagree, and can maturely leave it there.
Broncos or die.........(not really die.....but you know....sounds cool):D

Lonestar
09-02-2008, 11:43 AM
Real nice post, G_Money! :salute:

I just wanna make sure that if Shanny gets blamed for the duds, he should get credit for the studs.

Jrwiz said that Shanny got a lucky pick with TD, that he didn't expect him to be that good. Fair enough about being that good, but Shanny's shown that he can spot RB talent better than most teams, so although he might not have thought TD to be that good, he did see some RB talent in him that other teams didn't.

I've already heard how Cutler wasn't Shanny's pick, but Heimerdinger's, even though it was Shanny who was getting a scouting report about him from his friend, Jeff Fischer. I vaguely remember seeing a post where Dumerville was Coyer's pick, not Shanny's. So if it's a good pick, it was someone else's, but if it was a bad pick, it was Shanny's.

Clady is Shanny's pick, and a lot of people complained about the pick (I was one of them in a minor way; I wanted Williams, who's injured now, and has a history of back problems :D ). If Clady turns out great, as he seems to be looking, Shanny should get credit for that pick. If he's a bust, Shanny should get blame too.

I wouldn't wanna hear how Cutler, Marshall, Scheffler, and Dumerville weren't his picks, or that he just got lucky in those picks.


mikey gets the credit OR discredit for all the picks afterall he is IN charge.. he is responsible for all football operations..

My comments in the past where while some wanted to give credit for all the bad picks to TED. and all for the credit to mikey for the good picks that is wrong..

mikey is the final word so to speak when the decision is made and if anyone doubts that they are sadly mistaken..

Now perhaps his last year when Pat and mikey came to the conclusion that we would go the route of rebuilding this team via the draft VS the old way of FA something in the decision making tree changed..

I believe that Bates had a lot of say in the 2007 draft and I also believe that bringing Bates in was one of Pats ideas more than a mikey idea.. and every sane person has to know that the 2007 draft was totally out of character for mikey 3 of 4 picks being DLINE and a early rounder OT.. SO IMHO Bates had a lot of juice in making those picks. That is not to say he and ONLY he made them..

I also believe that Jay cutler was heavily influenced by having Dinger come on board several months earlier.. I do not believe ANYONE ever said it was solely dingers decision.. Since he spent several years watching this kid in the same city he lived in and since he came to work with his college roommate the logical conclusion here was Dinger was relied upon heavily in the decision making process.

Let me reiterate here mikey is/was responsible for all of the DAFT choices as well as Draft choices... because he makes the FINAL decision on ALL football operations..

WARHORSE
09-02-2008, 11:50 AM
Let me reiterate here mikey is/was responsible for all of the DAFT choices as well as Draft choices... because he makes the FINAL decision on ALL football operations..


Fine.

Then lets hear about how well hes done in the last three drafts from you.

Cause Shanahan has cleared the bases with walk off homeruns in each of the last three drafts.

Lonestar
09-02-2008, 11:50 AM
Your insight is incredible Jrwiz. ;)

I really would hate for you to show up here with those draft hindsights, because I would chew them up like a rabid pitbull..........and then some.:D

I dont want to go there, so yeah.....lets just say we disagree.

But its not a man crush I have, and expect people to critique Shanny which is fair. I just know there is only so much you can do to try and limit the variables that determine whether your draft is a successful one or not, but its all you can do.....limit the variables. There are no sure things in the draft, and there is no sure draft evaluation protocol that is foolproof in determining whether a player makes it on the next level.

Therefore, for those who belittle Shanahans abilities in drafting when we get little in return......do so expecting too much from the mind of the master. But if youre gonna choose to crank on him for draft failure...............then have the class to pump him up with draft success.

PEACE!


:coffee:

lets just say I like the guy as a great offensive minded coach.

His personnel decisions IMO have sucked prior to 2006.

If you think he is great, more power to you..

I am not dodging your challenge I do not have time right now to deal with it..

I have already done it once a year or so ago on mania and since I have not went back since I left there I will probably have to start from scratch to rebuild my thoughts there.

I repeat I'm on codeine for bronchitis and am trying to get ready to go out of town this weekend and have a lot to get caught up on..

until then we will have to agree to disagree..

Buff
09-02-2008, 11:59 AM
Fine.

Then lets hear about how well hes done in the last three drafts from you.

Cause Shanahan has cleared the bases with walk off homeruns in each of the last three drafts.

2007 was hardly a homerun draft. Trading up for Moss was questionable at the time, and it remains questionable to date. Our 2nd rounder can't even crack the 2nd string behind guys like John Engleberger. Harris and Thomas were solid late-round additions, but when you strike out in the 1st two rounds it's hard to classify it as a homerun.

Lonestar
09-02-2008, 12:01 PM
Fine.

Then lets hear about how well hes done in the last three drafts from you.

Cause Shanahan has cleared the bases with walk off homeruns in each of the last three drafts.

at this time other than Jay Marshall and Scheffler it is to early to tell IMO if these were indeed home runs like you think they are..

If they are great it is about damned time after 13 DAFTS it is the law of averages catching up if nothing else..

Two years from now lets talk about if most of these kids are still on the team..

In the past most did not make into the regular season two years after they were drafted..

Right now we have Paymah left from 2005.. out of 6 choices..

topscribe
09-02-2008, 12:06 PM
But do us all a favor and don't pretend the past didn't happen.

By the same token, do us all a favor and stop bringing up the past every
single time someone tries to compliment Shanny and the FO for good drafts
the last two or three years.

It works two ways, doesn't it?

-----

topscribe
09-02-2008, 12:12 PM
at this time other than Jay Marshall and Scheffler it is to early to tell IMO if these were indeed home runs like you think they are..

If they are great it is about damned time after 13 DAFTS it is the law of averages catching up if nothing else..

Two years from now lets talk about if most of these kids are still on the team..

In the past most did not make into the regular season two years after they were drafted..

Right now we have Paymah left from 2005.. out of 6 choices..

Be fair about it, JR. Two of those draft choices were traded for value, after
servicing the Broncos for a few years, not released. And another is not
with us, not because of bust, but because of death. In fact, the reason
the Broncos traded for Bly was because of D-Will's death.

2005 was not a rousing success, but it wasn't the failure I'm inferring from
your post.

-----

omac
09-02-2008, 12:16 PM
mikey gets the credit OR discredit for all the picks afterall he is IN charge.. he is responsible for all football operations..

My comments in the past where while some wanted to give credit for all the bad picks to TED. and all for the credit to mikey for the good picks that is wrong..

mikey is the final word so to speak when the decision is made and if anyone doubts that they are sadly mistaken..

Now perhaps his last year when Pat and mikey came to the conclusion that we would go the route of rebuilding this team via the draft VS the old way of FA something in the decision making tree changed..

I believe that Bates had a lot of say in the 2007 draft and I also believe that bringing Bates in was one of Pats ideas more than a mikey idea.. and every sane person has to know that the 2007 draft was totally out of character for mikey 3 of 4 picks being DLINE and a early rounder OT.. SO IMHO Bates had a lot of juice in making those picks. That is not to say he and ONLY he made them..

I also believe that Jay cutler was heavily influenced by having Dinger come on board several months earlier.. I do not believe ANYONE ever said it was solely dingers decision.. Since he spent several years watching this kid in the same city he lived in and since he came to work with his college roommate the logical conclusion here was Dinger was relied upon heavily in the decision making process.

Let me reiterate here mikey is/was responsible for all of the DAFT choices as well as Draft choices... because he makes the FINAL decision on ALL football operations..

I kind of have a slightly different recollection of those debates, but for the purposes of moving forward, I'll take your word for it. :cheers:

WARHORSE
09-02-2008, 12:17 PM
lets just say I like the guy as a great offensive minded coach.

His personnel decisions IMO have sucked prior to 2006.

If you think he is great, more power to you..

I am not dodging your challenge I do not have time right now to deal with it..

I have already done it once a year or so ago on mania and since I have not went back since I left there I will probably have to start from scratch to rebuild my thoughts there.

I repeat I'm on codeine for bronchitis and am trying to get ready to go out of town this weekend and have a lot to get caught up on..

until then we will have to agree to disagree..

Im not saying youre dodging it. I hope you get well soon, please take care of yourself.

Lonestar
09-02-2008, 12:22 PM
Be fair about it, JR. Two of those draft choices were traded for value, after
servicing the Broncos for a few years, not released. And another is not
with us, not because of bust, but because of death.

2005 was not a rousing success, but it wasn't the failure I'm inferring from
your post.

-----

I'm just looking at the facts MOST of mikeys choices never make it tot eh regular season in their third year FOR WHATEVER reason..

If you going to make choice on someone hoping that 32 years from now this 3rd rounders will get you a 6-7 rounder then something is wrong with your thought process.

Yes darrent died and that is sad . Do we really think he would be with the team this year either.. Most folks were calling for his scalp and foxworthless be inserted late in his last season he played..

had he not been murdered, would he still have went after BLY? no one knows for sure..

you mentioned getting value for TWO players since we all know it was not clarett what else did we get for whom..

WARHORSE
09-02-2008, 12:22 PM
2007 was hardly a homerun draft. Trading up for Moss was questionable at the time, and it remains questionable to date. Our 2nd rounder can't even crack the 2nd string behind guys like John Engleberger. Harris and Thomas were solid late-round additions, but when you strike out in the 1st two rounds it's hard to classify it as a homerun.


Two starters, one of them touted as a landmark for years to come, (Harris) and the other possibly so, (Thomas). Thats two out of four picks, and the other two strike outs? You should play baseball more often. ;)

Far from strike outs, even if they become role players.

MOtorboat
09-02-2008, 12:26 PM
Two starters, one of them touted as a landmark for years to come, (Harris) and the other possibly so, (Thomas). Thats two out of four picks, and the other two strike outs? You should play baseball more often. ;)

Far from strike outs, even if they become role players.

Huh?

Buff
09-02-2008, 12:30 PM
Two starters, one of them touted as a landmark for years to come, (Harris) and the other possibly so, (Thomas). Thats two out of four picks, and the other two strike outs? You should play baseball more often. ;)

Far from strike outs, even if they become role players.

Ok, well I'll meet you in the middle-- not strikeouts, but not homeruns either... I give the draft a C, maybe a B- if Harris and Thomas prove to be solid starters this year.

topscribe
09-02-2008, 12:39 PM
I'm just looking at the facts MOST of mikeys choices never make it tot eh regular season in their third year FOR WHATEVER reason..

If you going to make choice on someone hoping that 32 years from now this 3rd rounders will get you a 6-7 rounder then something is wrong with your thought process.

Yes darrent died and that is sad . Do we really think he would be with the team this year either.. Most folks were calling for his scalp and foxworthless be inserted late in his last season he played..

had he not been murdered, would he still have went after BLY? no one knows for sure..

you mentioned getting value for TWO players since we all know it was not clarett what else did we get for whom..

JR, you go back as far with the Broncos as I do.

Folks were calling for Elway's scalp, if you remember.

Yes, D-Will would have been starting today. I rest assured of that. He had
all the tools. He proved himself as head and shoulders above Foxy and
Paymah. People were calling for his scalp because the idiots did not realize
a rookie and second-year CB is still in a learning curve.

As I said, 2005 was not a rousing success, but it was not a failure, either.

Let's let go of the past. We are viewing at apparently very good drafts,
now. I am tired, frankly, of talking about how good the last couple drafts
have been, and someone bringing up the past every single time, it seems.

I guess I'm looking for a little joy now and then, without rain on the parade.

-----

omac
09-02-2008, 12:41 PM
I repeat I'm on codeine for bronchitis and am trying to get ready to go out of town this weekend and have a lot to get caught up on..

Bronchitis ... that's an addiction to the Broncos, right? (j/k, I know, lame :D )

Get well soon. :cheers:

Lonestar
09-02-2008, 12:44 PM
JR, you go back as far with the Broncos as I do.

Folks were calling for Elway's scalp, if you remember.

Yes, D-Will would have been starting today. I rest assured of that. He had
all the tools. He proved himself as head and shoulders above Foxy and
Paymah. People were calling for his scalp because the idiots did not realize
a rookie and second-year CB is still in a learning curve.

As I said, 2005 was not a rousing success, but it was not a failure, either.

Let's let go of the past. We are viewing at apparently very good drafts,
now. I am tired, frankly, of talking about how good the last couple drafts
have been, and someone bringing up the past every single time, it seems.

I guess I'm looking for a little joy now and then, without rain on the parade.

-----


And frankly I tired of hearing that because of his last 3 drafts he is wiz kid.. that no one want s to acknowledge how bad he was before 2006.

Something changed, I do not know what, but something did..

Let us all HOPE and pray the CHANGE continues forward..

Pardon the obama pun..

topscribe
09-02-2008, 12:45 PM
Ok, well I'll meet you in the middle-- not strikeouts, but not homeruns either... I give the draft a C, maybe a B- if Harris and Thomas prove to be solid starters this year.

If Thomas proves the disruptor they say he is becoming, and Harris continues
to form a wall over at RT, and Moss and Crowder even hang around, then I
will give that draft an A. Hell, that's 100% retention.

It doesn't matter to me whether a player came as a first or a fourth if he
plays like a first. In fact, three of the FAs from that year are still with us,
and one is starting.

Value is value, no matter how the Broncos get it.

-----

Lonestar
09-02-2008, 12:46 PM
Bronchitis ... that's an addiction to the Broncos, right? (j/k, I know, lame :D )

Get well soon. :cheers:

no the codeine is.. Hope you never have it, as whenever I cough it is like trying to bring up part of your lung with the green slimy crap the comes out..

totally disgusting..

Buff
09-02-2008, 12:49 PM
JR, you go back as far with the Broncos as I do.

Folks were calling for Elway's scalp, if you remember.

Yes, D-Will would have been starting today. I rest assured of that. He had
all the tools. He proved himself as head and shoulders above Foxy and
Paymah. People were calling for his scalp because the idiots did not realize
a rookie and second-year CB is still in a learning curve.

As I said, 2005 was not a rousing success, but it was not a failure, either.

Let's let go of the past. We are viewing at apparently very good drafts,
now. I am tired, frankly, of talking about how good the last couple drafts
have been, and someone bringing up the past every single time, it seems.

I guess I'm looking for a little joy now and then, without rain on the parade.

-----


Maybe you should head back to mania and the Orange Colored-Glasses forum. :D

I do see your point though, fans have been extremely cynical of the draft and personnel decisions, so we ought to enjoy our victories as much as we dwell on the losses (personnel-wise, not actual W's and L's). There definitely is some praise to go around with the last few drafts and we ought to recognize that... But at the same time, the franchise's drafting and handling of personnel has long been a point of contention amongst fans and analysts. I think it's only natural that you're going to get opposing viewpoints on a very subjective topic.

omac
09-02-2008, 12:53 PM
no the codeine is.. Hope you never have it, as whenever I cough it is like trying to bring up part of your lung with the green slimy crap the comes out..

totally disgusting..

uuggghhh ... well, hope that clears before the game so you can enjoy it. :beer:

topscribe
09-02-2008, 12:58 PM
And frankly I tired of hearing that because of his last 3 drafts he is wiz kid.. that no one want s to acknowledge how bad he was before 2006.

Something changed, I do not know what, but something did..

Let us all HOPE and pray the CHANGE continues forward..

Pardon the obama pun..

If you are saying I am claiming Shanny is a "whiz kid," I don't know where you
got that. Can you direct me to where I said that?

To me, who cares how bad Shanny was before 2005? All I care about is how
good or bad he is NOW. That's the point. We have been thoroughly
inundated with the failures of the 2001-2004 drafts. We all ought to know
the story well by now: We have been schooled enough in it.

I'm excited about Cutler, Marshall, Fast Eddie, Scheffler, Clady, R. Harris,
Thomas, Kuper, Hillis, J. Williams, and Dumervil, and yet others may have
a future here, such as Barrett, Torain, Powell, Lichtensteiger, and Larsen.
That's what I want to concentrate on. Not the past.

It has nothing to do with the "whiz kid." It's the talent itself that thrills me.

-----

Lonestar
09-02-2008, 12:59 PM
uuggghhh ... well, hope that clears before the game so you can enjoy it. :beer:


Actually I may not get to see the game I'm going to OMA to watch my daughter play at a VB Tourney I will probably be flying home while it is on..

I will however TIVO it..

Lonestar
09-02-2008, 01:06 PM
If you are saying I am claiming Shanny is a "whiz kid," I don't know where you
got that. Can you direct me to where I said that?

To me, who cares how bad Shanny was before 2005? All I care about is how
good or bad he is NOW. That's the point. We have been thoroughly
inundated with the failures of the 2001-2004 drafts. We all ought to know
the story well by now: We have been schooled enough in it.

I'm excited about Cutler, Marshall, Fast Eddie, Scheffler, Clady, R. Harris,
Thomas, Kuper, Hillis, J. Williams, and Dumervil, and yet others may have
a future here, such as Barrett, Torain, Powell, Lichtensteiger, and Larsen.
That's what I want to concentrate on. Not the past.

It has nothing to do with the "whiz kid." It's the talent itself that thrills me.

-----

I was not stating that about you TOP although we all know your a great optimistic cheerleader for the Broncos..

Most of the others on here want only to see and hear that mikey walks on water.. We all know he is a mere mortal mastermind on offensive, past that IMHO he is below average.. We all know if he could hire a whiz bang GM and work with him this combo would be unstoppable.. And maybe Goodman will be that guy right now I'm not all that convinced..


I have always stated I think this team IF the injury bug does not cripple it will be on the of the top teams to pay in 2009 and beyond..

If mikey can resign some of the few good picks he has made and have another great year drafting next year we will be good..

Codeine time..

topscribe
09-02-2008, 01:11 PM
I was not stating that about you TOP although we all know your a great optimistic cheerleader for the Broncos..

Most of the others on here want only to see and hear that mikey walks on water.. We all know he is a mere mortal mastermind on offensive, past that IMHO he is below average.. We all know if he could hire a whiz bang GM and work with him this combo would be unstoppable.. And maybe Goodman will be that guy right now I'm not all that convinced..


I have always stated I think this team IF the injury bug does not cripple it will be on the of the top teams to pay in 2009 and beyond..

If mikey can resign some of the few good picks he has made and have another great year drafting next year we will be good..

Codeine time..

Well, you know very well, I was walking in lockstep with you about Shanny's
drafting before. I was labeling it as "DAFTing" right along with you. And I
am not trying to excuse the past or sweep it under the rug.

In the past four years, we have had two great drafts, a fairly good one,
and an, umm, okay *I guess* one (2005). And from that period, we have
acquired some players. That is what I was trying to point out.

Hope you get to feeling better soon.

-----

WARHORSE
09-02-2008, 02:12 PM
I was not stating that about you TOP although we all know your a great optimistic cheerleader for the Broncos..

Most of the others on here want only to see and hear that mikey walks on water.. We all know he is a mere mortal mastermind on offensive, past that IMHO he is below average.. We all know if he could hire a whiz bang GM and work with him this combo would be unstoppable.. And maybe Goodman will be that guy right now I'm not all that convinced..


I have always stated I think this team IF the injury bug does not cripple it will be on the of the top teams to pay in 2009 and beyond..

If mikey can resign some of the few good picks he has made and have another great year drafting next year we will be good..

Codeine time..

That would be me.

And Jr points out that we dont want to acknowledge the past............I guess hes delirious on that diene.......while he ru-fuses to acknowledge the present.


Bash Shanny and blame him for bad past drafts...........and when we have good drafts...............still bash Shanny for past drafts. For all who have orange and blue sunglasses on in here...................Jrwiz wears the 'Shanny Haters' glasses with fervor................:D

Buff
09-02-2008, 02:21 PM
If Thomas proves the disruptor they say he is becoming, and Harris continues
to form a wall over at RT, and Moss and Crowder even hang around, then I
will give that draft an A. Hell, that's 100% retention.

It doesn't matter to me whether a player came as a first or a fourth if he
plays like a first. In fact, three of the FAs from that year are still with us,
and one is starting.

Value is value, no matter how the Broncos get it.

-----

Yeah, a starter is a starter, value is value. But when you're evaluating a draft, I think it's only fair to factor in draft position and salary tied to said position. Because, a top 20 1st round pick making $8 Mil in guaranteed money as a situational 3rd down pass-rusher is not very good value... Whereas a 4th round pick on a starting DT making $3 million over the life of his 4 year deal is...

Plus, the bottom line is that 1st day picks will get longer to showcase their abilities than late round picks-- So to say evaluate players on retention alone is a little misleading IMO.

topscribe
09-02-2008, 02:38 PM
Yeah, a starter is a starter, value is value. But when you're evaluating a draft, I think it's only fair to factor in draft position and salary tied to said position. Because, a top 20 1st round pick making $8 Mil in guaranteed money as a situational 3rd down pass-rusher is not very good value... Whereas a 4th round pick on a starting DT making $3 million over the life of his 4 year deal is...

Plus, the bottom line is that 1st day picks will get longer to showcase their abilities than late round picks-- So to say evaluate players on retention alone is a little misleading IMO.

I was not evaluating players on retention alone.

When you isolate the factors and consider them out of their context, then
it may look logical. That is the reason you take in the big picture.

Therefore, if Jarvis Moss busts, for instance, yet Thomas comes on as one
of the best DTs in football (not saying he is yet; just providing a scenario),
what is the difference who was #1 and #4, respectively? In its context,
value is value, and it constitutes a successful draft.

But I look at more than just the draft. The big picture includes all around
talent acquisition. For instance, the 2005 draft, as I mentioned, is so-so,
okay, to me. In that analysis, I take in consideration the FA acquisition of
Pears, who is backing up Clady today.

In 2007, we grabbed UFAs Steven Harris, Roderick Rodgers, and Selvin
Young, all who are still with us, which makes that year a "B" in my book,
with Moss and Crowder still having a chance of making that an "A".

I don't care whether the Broncos get a star in the first round, or out of the
popcorn booth at the local movie theatre. Value is value. TD and Rod
Smith both proved that, didn't they?

-----

Buff
09-02-2008, 02:59 PM
I was not evaluating players on retention alone.

When you isolate the factors and consider them out of their context, then
it may look logical. That is the reason you take in the big picture.

Therefore, if Jarvis Moss busts, for instance, yet Thomas comes on as one
of the best DTs in football (not saying he is yet; just providing a scenario),
what is the difference who was #1 and #4, respectively? In its context,
value is value, and it constitutes a successful draft.

But I look at more than just the draft. The big picture includes all around
talent acquisition. For instance, the 2005 draft, as I mentioned, is so-so,
okay, to me. In that analysis, I take in consideration the FA acquisition of
Pears, who is backing up Clady today.

In 2007, we grabbed UFAs Steven Harris, Roderick Rodgers, and Selvin
Young, all who are still with us, which makes that year a "B" in my book,
with Moss and Crowder still having a chance of making that an "A".

I don't care whether the Broncos get a star in the first round, or out of the
popcorn booth at the local movie theatre. Value is value. TD proved that,
didn't he?

-----

I'm in agreement that at the end of the day, it doesn't matter how they got here, it matters how they perform. And I also agree that you have to look at the big picture when evaluating a draft class...

But I also think some isolation is necessary when evaluating a draft. For example, if Thomas plays at a 1st round level while Moss continues to disappoint and plays at roughly a 4th or 5th round level, then I agree that those players essentially cancel one another out. But then you also have to factor in the picks we gave up to get those players, and the salaries that are attached to each player due to their draft slot-- Because if we're talking about a player's actual value, then the bottom line is $$. You never hear the New York Yankees talking about what great value they got, because there is no incentive to curtail spending-- it's all about wins.

In the NFL, it's all about wins, but it's also about staying under the salary cap and being able to stay competitive year in and year out.

I think I got off on a bit of a tangent here, I'm not even sure if I can follow what I just wrote-- but my point is that where you pick a player and how much you pay them DOES play into the success or failure of a draft... Reggie Bush for instance is a pretty solid 3rd down change of pace back, but when you're the #2 overall pick and making truckloads of money, what constitutes good play is all relative.

Does that make any sense? :confused:

G_Money
09-02-2008, 03:56 PM
By the same token, do us all a favor and stop bringing up the past every
single time someone tries to compliment Shanny and the FO for good drafts
the last two or three years.

It works two ways, doesn't it?

-----

I don't think you're talking about me here.

I hated our 05 draft because of the shotgun approach to getting a CB and that idiot Clarett. I adored our 06 draft both at the time and in hindsight. In 07 I was angry about flushing picks away and disliked both Moss and Harris, but liked Crowder and Thomas. And I gave this year's draft a lot of enthusiasm from the start and a solid B rating.

At the same time, our FA class this year was...weak. And filled with many of the mistakes that have hurt us in the past, though thankfully for less money this time around. Last year's was a disaster. All is not sunshine in the talent evaluation field just yet. Let's not get ahead of ourselves in claiming the past to be dead and buried.

But I don't hold past failures over Shanahan's head (or at least I try not to). The great thing about the NFL is that the contracts are not guaranteed - you CAN remake an entire roster in 3 years. But I do watch out for failed strategies of the past reappearing in the present.

I blamed Heimerdinger for our post-Kubes woes. I blamed Bates for that abortion of a defense (though the necessity of his hiring was Shanny's fault from firing Coyer). I blamed Sundquist for some of our drafting issues after his blog came out defending those choices as totally correct and unassailable.

And now all those people hired by Shanahan are gone, and their replacements - one of whom is Shanny himself - will determine what we've learned.

I don't want to luck into the Championship game. I want to earn every step. I don't want to build a team that has a bare chance to get fortunate, but one that has every chance. The way we win means as much to me as the win. And keeping a critical eye - not a hateful one - on the proceedings is the only way to tell if the habits of the past decade are still informing our decisions or if we're on a different path now.

The world has plenty of Shanahan apologists. He doesn't need them. He has very little to apologize for - he's a massively successful head coach of a Super Bowl winner who has gotten the best seasons of their careers from EVERY QB he's ever coached. Young, Elway, Griese, Plummer, Cutler... when you watch how those guys struggled with other coaches it's fascinating to see his Midas touch.

Roster construction has been his bugaboo the last many years. Finding the right QB was a large part of that, but it's been in several areas. The Colts drafted 20ish of their 22 starters on their Super Bowl winning team. You don't HAVE to do it that way, but we were trying to do it all with as few draftees as possible.

Thank God that's changed. I can envision a Super Bowl roster for us now that includes many of our recent draft picks in key positions. Jr's not a believer yet, and that's okay. He's a critic, not a speculator. But he wants us to win as badly as any Shanahan backer does.

I don't hate Shanahan. I just remember what success looks like for a Shanahan-coached team: an overwhelming offense with a fearless QB at the helm and a blitzkrieging defense.

The dumbed-down O of the last couple years isn't it. A QB who is terrified in the face of post-season victory (Plummer) isn't either. A passive defense that lets opponents cram 18 play drives down it's throat can't possibly be it.

And in theory we've addressed all those issues for this season. Recent good drafting is another good indicator that better times are ahead. So in that sense I agree with you guys - the past is the past. Enjoy the present, because it should be good. And the indicators for the future are looking up.

Every draft takes 3-4 years to pan out - or not. I'm willing to wait for the 07 and 08 drafts to prove out and give your argument more weight while we see the apparent recent trend hopefully continue in future drafts.

In the meantime can we both agree to enjoy the thing Shanahan has proven he has a talent for, that coaching offense on the field thing? :beer: I for one am definitely looking forward to less red-zone futility and more dynamic offense. THAT is something Shanny has proved himself capable of no matter what measurement you want to use.

~G

NightTrainLayne
09-02-2008, 04:45 PM
I don't think you're talking about me here.

I hated our 05 draft because of the shotgun approach to getting a CB and that idiot Clarett. I adored our 06 draft both at the time and in hindsight. In 07 I was angry about flushing picks away and disliked both Moss and Harris, but liked Crowder and Thomas. And I gave this year's draft a lot of enthusiasm from the start and a solid B rating.

At the same time, our FA class this year was...weak. And filled with many of the mistakes that have hurt us in the past, though thankfully for less money this time around. Last year's was a disaster. All is not sunshine in the talent evaluation field just yet. Let's not get ahead of ourselves in claiming the past to be dead and buried.

But I don't hold past failures over Shanahan's head (or at least I try not to). The great thing about the NFL is that the contracts are not guaranteed - you CAN remake an entire roster in 3 years. But I do watch out for failed strategies of the past reappearing in the present.

I blamed Heimerdinger for our post-Kubes woes. I blamed Bates for that abortion of a defense (though the necessity of his hiring was Shanny's fault from firing Coyer). I blamed Sundquist for some of our drafting issues after his blog came out defending those choices as totally correct and unassailable.

And now all those people hired by Shanahan are gone, and their replacements - one of whom is Shanny himself - will determine what we've learned.

I don't want to luck into the Championship game. I want to earn every step. I don't want to build a team that has a bare chance to get fortunate, but one that has every chance. The way we win means as much to me as the win. And keeping a critical eye - not a hateful one - on the proceedings is the only way to tell if the habits of the past decade are still informing our decisions or if we're on a different path now.

The world has plenty of Shanahan apologists. He doesn't need them. He has very little to apologize for - he's a massively successful head coach of a Super Bowl winner who has gotten the best seasons of their careers from EVERY QB he's ever coached. Young, Elway, Griese, Plummer, Cutler... when you watch how those guys struggled with other coaches it's fascinating to see his Midas touch.

Roster construction has been his bugaboo the last many years. Finding the right QB was a large part of that, but it's been in several areas. The Colts drafted 20ish of their 22 starters on their Super Bowl winning team. You don't HAVE to do it that way, but we were trying to do it all with as few draftees as possible.

Thank God that's changed. I can envision a Super Bowl roster for us now that includes many of our recent draft picks in key positions. Jr's not a believer yet, and that's okay. He's a critic, not a speculator. But he wants us to win as badly as any Shanahan backer does.

I don't hate Shanahan. I just remember what success looks like for a Shanahan-coached team: an overwhelming offense with a fearless QB at the helm and a blitzkrieging defense.

The dumbed-down O of the last couple years isn't it. A QB who is terrified in the face of post-season victory (Plummer) isn't either. A passive defense that lets opponents cram 18 play drives down it's throat can't possibly be it.

And in theory we've addressed all those issues for this season. Recent good drafting is another good indicator that better times are ahead. So in that sense I agree with you guys - the past is the past. Enjoy the present, because it should be good. And the indicators for the future are looking up.

Every draft takes 3-4 years to pan out - or not. I'm willing to wait for the 07 and 08 drafts to prove out and give your argument more weight while we see the apparent recent trend hopefully continue in future drafts.

In the meantime can we both agree to enjoy the thing Shanahan has proven he has a talent for, that coaching offense on the field thing? :beer: I for one am definitely looking forward to less red-zone futility and more dynamic offense. THAT is something Shanny has proved himself capable of no matter what measurement you want to use.

~G

G$, you make my heart swoon when you handle a post like that.