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View Full Version : Poll: Do You Want Tim Tebow Moving Forward?



CHARLIEADAMSFAN
12-09-2010, 01:32 AM
Do you want him on this roster? Plain and simple.

I want him as a Bronco not a doubt in my mind. This kid has a hell of a work ethic. You haze the living life out of him and he loves it, he wants it so bad. If you put Tebow's motor in a talent like Jay Cutler, wow imagine what you'd have. He will work as hard as he can, if we give him his shot at quarterback and he doesn't work out he will change positions. He wants to win, he's a hell of a competitor. That's something you cannot teach, something that I'm not willing to give up so easily. I agree he is not John Elway, or even Kyle Orton for that matter, he's something different. My feeling is we drafted this guy, he wants to win, he wants to play, and will do anything to prove he belongs as a Denver Bronco. He hasn't been asked to do much yet, but can you say he's really let you down? I'm not even saying bench Orton play Tebow, I'm just saying I think we could have something very special on this team, and I am by no means rushing to get rid of it.

BroncoWave
12-09-2010, 01:35 AM
Absolutely yes. I have seen nothing to suggest he won't have a bright future in the NFL. All of the criticisms of him are the nit-pickiest criticisms of an NFL prospect I have seen in my entire life. He has all the tools to be a great pro QB IMO.

dogfish
12-09-2010, 01:44 AM
do you mean "want" in the biblical sense?

:huh:

sneakers
12-09-2010, 01:47 AM
I hate the phrase "moving forward".....I can't stand it!! :mad:

CHARLIEADAMSFAN
12-09-2010, 02:02 AM
I hate the phrase "moving forward".....I can't stand it!! :mad:

in the future?

Kapaibro
12-09-2010, 02:05 AM
do you mean "want" in the biblical sense?

:huh:

Yes yes yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

dogfish
12-09-2010, 02:07 AM
I hate the phrase "moving forward".....I can't stand it!! :mad:

what did that phrase ever do to you?

:noidea:

Lancane
12-09-2010, 03:01 AM
Let's be honest, Tim Tebow has in a capacity, indeed neutered this organization. Depending on how the front office wants to go forward, it will in fact play a huge factor in the coming months!

A head coach, at least a smart, proven head coach will not want to be told that this is your franchise quarterback, end of story. Gruden might run with it, but I don't see Denver dishing out 6 million a year for his salary or for that matter on another proven, big name coach.

Some of the hot offensive coordinators will be the same way in that regard, they're not going to want to come to a city where the fans are already in an uproar, already lost a franchise-esque quarterback, forced to use a quarterback they're not comfortable with and try and win, because if it doesn't work, it's their careers that will be damaged. Even above average defensive coordinators know the quarterback is usually the figurehead of a franchise, that's why Spagnuolo went out and got Bradford, Cowher drafted Roethlisberger and so on. No respectable or experienced coach is going to bank their careers on Tebow, they'll give him a shot...but it also depends on what they see, because they will be looking at film of him and determining if he is capable or if they need to go in another direction.

If I was Pat Bowlen, I would take Tebow aside and tell him, "Hey, sorry things have turned out this way...but, I can not guarantee that you'll be the starting quarterback in the future or at anytime with this team. You may be asked to try another position and be utilized on trick plays...but, we have to do what is best for us, and that's up to the coach and the staff. If you want, I'll try and trade you to another team, but I'm sure they'll give no guarantees either."

And if we look at the top candidates for the head coach position, most of them will want a big armed quarterback that fits their ideal quarterback for the position. Kubiak, Harbaugh, Fassel, Dennison, Phillips, Rivera all like strong armed quarterbacks, or have been part of winning teams led by such players, that is etched into their psyche. If Bowlen and the front office brass are dead set on Tebow being the future, then look for us to possibly have issues and have coaches that are as inexperienced as those we have now on the staff, or worse.

I personally have watched hours of tape on Tebow and am willing to admit that I like his physical toughness, he's got the physique and size that is ideal for a starting quarterback at this level...but his arm is not the greatest, his release and accuracy are at best questionable, he doesn't throw a tight spiral and he seems to lack velocity on his throws. I like his drive to win...but that is not enough in my opinion. And Denver fans are not going to wait a year or two to see what this kid can do, the fans have been robbed of a franchise quarterback, few if any believe in Orton as the future. And if Denver is stubborn, we could be stuck with a questionable coaching staff and remain a gutter franchise for a couple more years.

If Bowlen wants to win, he needs experienced coaches and has to be willing to let them get the players that fit their schemes to give them a chance to win. Otherwise, firing McDaniels was absolutely fruitless and we'll just continue to be mediocre.

BroncoBJ
12-09-2010, 03:16 AM
I want him not only because I think he can be a legit QB for us but also because I think hes hott and will attract all the lil hoochies to our team. :elefant:

Lancane
12-09-2010, 03:20 AM
I want him not only because I think he can be a legit QB for us but also because I think hes hott and will attract all the lil hoochies to our team. :elefant:

It's sad really that fan logic has come to this...sad indeed.

And it really doesn't matter what we think, but what can he do. The majority of the fans want Tebow to play and are not going to wait another year or two. If it seems he can not play at the position...he'll be the next one booed out of town.

;)

SR
12-09-2010, 04:32 AM
I didn't like the pick at first, but through the season I've come to the conclusion that Tebow is our future at QB.

sneakers
12-09-2010, 04:35 AM
in the future?

yes, much better.

SR
12-09-2010, 04:36 AM
I personally have watched hours of tape on Tebow and am willing to admit that I like his physical toughness, he's got the physique and size that is ideal for a starting quarterback at this level...but his arm is not the greatest, his release and accuracy are at best questionable, he doesn't throw a tight spiral and he seems to lack velocity on his throws. I like his drive to win...but that is not enough in my opinion. And Denver fans are not going to wait a year or two to see what this kid can do, the fans have been robbed of a franchise quarterback, few if any believe in Orton as the future. And if Denver is stubborn, we could be stuck with a questionable coaching staff and remain a gutter franchise for a couple more years.


All of that is correctable and I believe through the coaching and attention that he's had since he was drafted that a lot of those things have been corrected. I believe Tebow can be a solid #1 QB and I think he will be successful in doing so.

SR
12-09-2010, 04:39 AM
It's sad really that fan logic has come to this...sad indeed.

And it really doesn't matter what we think, but what can he do. The majority of the fans want Tebow to play and are not going to wait another year or two. If it seems he can not play at the position...he'll be the next one booed out of town.

;)

I'd rather lost a few games with Tebow but have it be exciting football and watch someone do everything he can to win even if he loses versus watching Orton play the same, boring game for four quarters regardless of what the score is.

bcbronc
12-09-2010, 04:51 AM
I'm not convinced Tebow will ever be an every down QB in the NFL, but that doesn't mean you just walk away from him. terrible asset management to get rid of Tebow, unless you were getting a 1st rounder back (doubt it).

if nothing else, Tebow has already shown he can be effective as a goalline QB. the game has become so specialized that it almost seems inevitable every team will have a multi-threat run/throw "qb" on their roster, and Tebow can be that guy.

if he develops into more than that, even better. but even as just a guy that converts short yardage and goal line opportunities, he's worth keeping on the roster. if you're talking trade, obviously there's deals you take for him--as there is for every player--so it would depend completely on the offer.

SR
12-09-2010, 04:53 AM
Tebow can win games for this team as the starting QB.

Lancane
12-09-2010, 05:33 AM
All of that is correctable and I believe through the coaching and attention that he's had since he was drafted that a lot of those things have been corrected. I believe Tebow can be a solid #1 QB and I think he will be successful in doing so.

Believing Red is one thing...I can believe elephants can fly given the right dimensions, weight and ear size...if I found that elephant and pushed it's ass off a cliff, is there a literal chance it could fly? No...and then I would end up being the dumbass who killed an elephant.

People believed that Tim Couch would be a good quarterback, the same with Ryan Leaf, Andre Ware, Kelly Stouffer, Terry Baker, Akili Smith, Rick Mirer, Byron Leftwich, David Carr, Joey Harrington, JaMarcus Russel, Heath Shuler, Matt Leinart, Jim Drunkenmiller, Jerry Tagge, Todd Blackledge, David Klingler, Rich Campbell, Art Schlichter, Brady Quinn, Vince Young, Alex Smith, Cade McNown, Dan McGwire and Todd Marinovich to name a few.

Point being is that everyone of those athletes were thought to be good quarterback prospects, not only by the General Managers and Coaches that drafted them, but by the fans as well...it doesn't make it so. You mentioned that some of the issues can be corrected by coaching, and I agree...but who had Tebow been coached by that has that insight and is a good evaluator of such things?

Josh McDaniels? Orton isn't better, he's in a system he's always flourished in, we saw that this past Sunday...he is nowhere better then he was before. Cassel is doing well, but he too is benefiting from a system, if you really watch him, he plays like shit and depends on those around him. And Brady had developed into an elite quarterback long before Josh was near him, Charlie Weiss is who made Tom Brady. So who? Mike McCoy? The guy who coached Jake Delhomme and Matt Moore? Ben McDaniels...who hasn't developed anyone or anything? Sorry...but I wouldn't trust one of those idiots with Andrew Luck and he won't need that much coaching. Orton is a better coach then anyone of those guys.

And from a talent standpoint, Tebow has everything you look for in prototypical size, smarts, drive to win and better himself, physical toughness...but he lacks talent, his mechanics are questionable, he doesn't plant himself correctly, he doesn't turn with his hips well, he throws high from above his head...good quarterbacks with sharp accuracy throw from ear level, not from the back of the cranium over extending their arms lobbing it high...it makes for wobbly balls, less velocity and the release and motion cause inaccuracy, the same with wrist motion for a tight spiral. Have you seen any film on him to suggest he can throw a bullet pass into tight space or enough accuracy to throw it into coverage without the receiver needing to make a play? Let's not forget that he's a South-Paw either, very few left-handed quarterbacks have been solid starters in the NFL, those few who were better then average were Steve Young, Boomer Esiason, Kenny Stabler, Michael Vick and Mark Brunell...

I'm not saying he will not be a good quarterback, I really don't know at this point, or how well he's developed...if McDaniels did coach him right. But, from what I've seen...if I had to pick between Kyle Orton and Tim Tebow on who has the better skill-set to be a pro quarterback, then I'd have to go with Orton...and I don't think he's that good, just ask anybody. So I am concerned, because we are banking on this kid, there is a lot of controversy surrounding him if he can or can not be a franchise quarterback, we should all be worried. Because if he is not, then we are going to continue to lose, and continue to go through coaching changes and continue to need a person for that position. And what is worse, is that we may be in a position to nab one of two quarterbacks that look like franchise capable quarterbacks. So, yeah...I am concerned, I knew Cutler had all that, but now he's gone. People need to realize just how bad this could be if he isn't that guy.

Not to mention that it could effect who is willing to coach here, most solid coaches will want to draft their ideal quarterback, that's why the position was a hot commodity before McDaniels, they would be inheriting a team with a young franchise quarterback in place! That doesn't happen often, and some will not see Tebow in the same light as you do or even as good as I do even though I question him.

Lancane
12-09-2010, 05:42 AM
I'm not convinced Tebow will ever be an every down QB in the NFL, but that doesn't mean you just walk away from him. terrible asset management to get rid of Tebow, unless you were getting a 1st rounder back (doubt it).

if nothing else, Tebow has already shown he can be effective as a goalline QB. the game has become so specialized that it almost seems inevitable every team will have a multi-threat run/throw "qb" on their roster, and Tebow can be that guy.

if he develops into more than that, even better. but even as just a guy that converts short yardage and goal line opportunities, he's worth keeping on the roster. if you're talking trade, obviously there's deals you take for him--as there is for every player--so it would depend completely on the offer.

But that is a hinders things as well, he's being paid first rounder money to be a back-up, third down or goal-line trick pony? And it would be alright if say he would be willing to be a tight end, then you could utilize him in the passing game cause he has the physical ability to play the position, and could cause more havoc in audible situations.

But to keep him as a back-up quarterback if he doesn't fit the needs at the quarterback position is ludicrous when you figure out how much he is costing the team. If he isn't the answer, I have no problem with him being a tight end/quarterback, but if management forces the issue...it could cause problems in regards to finding the right coaching staff and head coach. Who after all wants to coach a team when you have to use someone your not comfortable with and doesn't fit your system? It's like being set-up to fail, I wouldn't want it and no respectable coach would. After all, look what happened to McDaniels being a loser, the fans wanted to lynch his ass!

BroncoBJ
12-09-2010, 06:27 AM
It's sad really that fan logic has come to this...sad indeed.

And it really doesn't matter what we think, but what can he do. The majority of the fans want Tebow to play and are not going to wait another year or two. If it seems he can not play at the position...he'll be the next one booed out of town.

;)

:lol: I just want to see what he can do first and have a shot. If he fails miserably here then he can go. But I just want to see what he can do with us. And I hope whoever the new coach is gives him a chance. I also hope we win some games over the next 4 so we wont be in position to draft a qb high this year. Hoping they all go ahead of us. Guess we'll know more over the next 4 games and in January when we have our coach.

Nomad
12-09-2010, 07:15 AM
Tebow can win games for this team as the starting QB.

Get him a great defense and solid run game......yes he can just like most QBs !! I want to see what he can do now with a struggling team! Can he be the difference maker? No one knows this until he proves it on the field, and that's why I'd like to see him start the next 4 games!

I know Orton starts Sunday, but if he struggles I hope Studesville doesn't hesitate to put in Tebow! I expect Tebow to struggle a little but I also expect him to play good!

MasterShake
12-09-2010, 07:40 AM
Sure...

Lancane
12-09-2010, 08:03 AM
Found this article that some should find interesting...


There are concerns about Tebow’s delivery and whether or not he will be successful in the NFL.

From just one look at the way he throws a football it is immediately obvious what is wrong—he’s left-handed!

Now don’t get me wrong, I am a part of the seven to 10 percent of the population known as "Southpaws," who are said to be in their right-mind.

There are numerous references that suggest being left-handed is less than desirable.

It’s not a good thing to have two left feet, or be given a left-handed compliment.

The English word sinister comes from the Latin word sinestra , which originally meant "left" but took on meanings of "evil" or "unlucky."

The opposite of left is right, which has all kind of positive connotations attached to it.

So what does all this mean for Tebow?

There have only been 27 left-handed quarterbacks in the NFL. If 10 percent of the population is left-handed, and there are three quarterbacks on each NFL depth chart, that computes to nine left-handers that should be in the league at any given time.

There must be a reason for the disparity. Could it be another slight from a right-handed world?

The answer could simply be that with the majority of quarterbacks being right-handed, teams naturally take on a right-handed approach.

Typically, the best tackle is placed on the left side of the line to protect a right-handed quarterback’s blind side.

Plays are designed to roll a quarterback to the right, as this is easier than rolling to the left and having to throw back across one’s body.

The odds appear to be stacked against Tebow from the start.

I looked into the careers of the 27 lefties that have thrown a pass in the NFL. Eight were drafted in the first round, averaging the eighth pick overall. Their careers averaged 5.1 seasons, spanning one to 15 years.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/421550-tim-tebow-ranking-the-top-left-handed-qbs-of-the-nfl

How many left handed quarterbacks have won more then one Super Bowl? Absolutely zero...that's right, only two have won it...but that's all. How long did it take for Steve Young to become a starter? Try seven seasons...hope we don't have to wait that freaking long!

Let's face it...the chances of Tebow being a successful quarterback in the NFL are at best 100 to 1 odds. I know that many fans will keep putting their faith in him, but if history is anything to go by...then it don't look to good Lucy!

Lancane
12-09-2010, 08:12 AM
:lol: I just want to see what he can do first and have a shot. If he fails miserably here then he can go. But I just want to see what he can do with us. And I hope whoever the new coach is gives him a chance. I also hope we win some games over the next 4 so we wont be in position to draft a qb high this year. Hoping they all go ahead of us. Guess we'll know more over the next 4 games and in January when we have our coach.

So, you hope we win the next four games so we have absolutely no chance to draft Luck or Mallett? Even though, they look to be the next Elway and Marino...correct? Instead, your banking that Tebow will become the first left-handed quarterback (in history) to win more then one Super Bowl, let alone one...because only two have ever done it, in what? 90 years...

Okay, sure...can I get a bucket of BBQ'd pig ears with super power ingredients, like X-ray vision and oh, a million dollars while were at it...I'd also like to have sex with all the playboy bunnies from the last two decades, please?...pretty, pretty please?

;)

Dirk
12-09-2010, 08:19 AM
How long did it take for Steve Young to become a starter? Try seven seasons...hope we don't have to wait that freaking long!


That's not a fair assessment. Look who was in front of him...Montana.


I don't go for the lefty's don't have as good a chance theory. So instead of having that blind side tackle on the left...you have him on the right.

Otherwise I see where you are coming from. I don't know if you are trying to soften a potential blow to the fans if Tebow doesn't get to start or he fails, or if you just don't have faith that Tebow can be a quality QB in the NFL.

Either way, I still say we play him for the rest of the year to see what we have. He will struggle of course, but then again, he may not. Unless we utilize him in game situations, we will never know.

The thought of us getting rid of Tebow before we even see what he is capable of makes me sick to my stomach. It would be completely ignorant of the Broncos to do such a thing IMO.

Tned
12-09-2010, 08:22 AM
I voted neutral, but I'm half asleep and didn't read the question, only the title of the thread, so I would probably have voted yes if I had properly read it as "do you want him on the roster".

The neutral was based simply on we don't yet know if he is a starting QB, so long term, I don't know if he's the solution. I believe that could take some time (easily another year or two) before the team will know whether or not he's capable of being their franchise QB, and he needs to be with the team at least through that time.

chazoe60
12-09-2010, 08:32 AM
Let's be honest, Tim Tebow has in a capacity, indeed neutered this organization. Depending on how the front office wants to go forward, it will in fact play a huge factor in the coming months!

A head coach, at least a smart, proven head coach will not want to be told that this is your franchise quarterback, end of story. Gruden might run with it, but I don't see Denver dishing out 6 million a year for his salary or for that matter on another proven, big name coach.

Some of the hot offensive coordinators will be the same way in that regard, they're not going to want to come to a city where the fans are already in an uproar, already lost a franchise-esque quarterback, forced to use a quarterback they're not comfortable with and try and win, because if it doesn't work, it's their careers that will be damaged. Even above average defensive coordinators know the quarterback is usually the figurehead of a franchise, that's why Spagnuolo went out and got Bradford, Cowher drafted Roethlisberger and so on. No respectable or experienced coach is going to bank their careers on Tebow, they'll give him a shot...but it also depends on what they see, because they will be looking at film of him and determining if he is capable or if they need to go in another direction.

If I was Pat Bowlen, I would take Tebow aside and tell him, "Hey, sorry things have turned out this way...but, I can not guarantee that you'll be the starting quarterback in the future or at anytime with this team. You may be asked to try another position and be utilized on trick plays...but, we have to do what is best for us, and that's up to the coach and the staff. If you want, I'll try and trade you to another team, but I'm sure they'll give no guarantees either."

And if we look at the top candidates for the head coach position, most of them will want a big armed quarterback that fits their ideal quarterback for the position. Kubiak, Harbaugh, Fassel, Dennison, Phillips, Rivera all like strong armed quarterbacks, or have been part of winning teams led by such players, that is etched into their psyche. If Bowlen and the front office brass are dead set on Tebow being the future, then look for us to possibly have issues and have coaches that are as inexperienced as those we have now on the staff, or worse.

I personally have watched hours of tape on Tebow and am willing to admit that I like his physical toughness, he's got the physique and size that is ideal for a starting quarterback at this level...but his arm is not the greatest, his release and accuracy are at best questionable, he doesn't throw a tight spiral and he seems to lack velocity on his throws. I like his drive to win...but that is not enough in my opinion. And Denver fans are not going to wait a year or two to see what this kid can do, the fans have been robbed of a franchise quarterback, few if any believe in Orton as the future. And if Denver is stubborn, we could be stuck with a questionable coaching staff and remain a gutter franchise for a couple more years.

If Bowlen wants to win, he needs experienced coaches and has to be willing to let them get the players that fit their schemes to give them a chance to win. Otherwise, firing McDaniels was absolutely fruitless and we'll just continue to be mediocre.

Lancane, how do you think Tebow would fare in the PA/Bootleg driven offense we had that Plummer ran? I happen to think that offense could be well suited to Tebow, but I have not studied him as much as you.
I am of the belief that Pat wants to go back to what he knows and I think the next HC is going to be Rick Dennison when all is said and done. Or at the very least it will be someone from that tree. I have been wrong once before though.

Lancane
12-09-2010, 08:33 AM
That's not a fair assessment. Look who was in front of him...Montana.


I don't go for the lefty's don't have as good a chance theory. So instead of having that blind side tackle on the left...you have him on the right.

Otherwise I see where you are coming from. I don't know if you are trying to soften a potential blow to the fans if Tebow doesn't get to start or he fails, or if you just don't have faith that Tebow can be a quality QB in the NFL.

Either way, I still say we play him for the rest of the year to see what we have. He will struggle of course, but then again, he may not. Unless we utilize him in game situations, we will never know.

The thought of us getting rid of Tebow before we even see what he is capable of makes me sick to my stomach. It would be completely ignorant of the Broncos to do such a thing IMO.

Steve Young sucked so bad in Tampa Bay that the fans were throwing crap at him! Then he sat what, five seasons before getting a shot.

I'm softening the blow...though a lot of fans are not going to buy it...fans are if anything passionate and due to that at times unreasonable. But the odds are stacked against Tebow, I think the organization knows this and that is why I feel that Bowlen hasn't made an issue out of it. Let's face it, the papers and NFL analysts have all brought it up, that it should be time to put Tebow in for valuable experience, the fans are chanting his name almost every game...it will get worse now because they can't express their irritation towards McDaniels anymore.

Depending on who we hire to be the next General Manager and the next Head Coach, I would not be surprised one bit if our first round pick ended up being Ryan Mallett...and that's just being honest!

Lancane
12-09-2010, 08:46 AM
Lancane, how do you think Tebow would fare in the PA/Bootleg driven offense we had that Plummer ran? I happen to think that offense could be well suited to Tebow, but I have not studied him as much as you.
I am of the belief that Pat wants to go back to what he knows and I think the next HC is going to be Rick Dennison when all is said and done. Or at the very least it will be someone from that tree. I have been wrong once before though.

I think that it would suit him better then some of the other offenses out there, especially the pass proficient offenses like the Pistol or Air Coryell variant systems or a more pass orientated West Coast offense. We have to remember that he's been in two different spread offensive systems for the better part of six years, one under Urban Meyer, the other under Josh McDaniels. He wants to be a pocket passing quarterback, I just don't know. The problem is that he's not patient and loves to run the ball, he's better at it then throwing. And I'm starting to get this distinct feeling that Tebow will be a bust at the pro-level.

Rick Dennison could well be the next Head Coach, and if what Pat has said is true, then Tebow doesn't fit well into the plans. After all, Broncos' football is a balance of a tough running game and a high powered passing attack. Kubiak and Dennison would both probably want a strong armed gunslinger at quarterback and that is not Tebow.

chazoe60
12-09-2010, 08:52 AM
I think that it would suit him better then some of the other offenses out there, especially the pass proficient offenses like the Pistol or Air Coryell variant systems or a more pass orientated West Coast offense. We have to remember that he's been in two different spread offensive systems for the better part of six years, one under Urban Meyer, the other under Josh McDaniels. He wants to be a pocket passing quarterback, I just don't know. The problem is that he's not patient and loves to run the ball, he's better at it then throwing. And I'm starting to get this distinct feeling that Tebow will be a bust at the pro-level.

Rick Dennison could well be the next Head Coach, and if what Pat has said is true, then Tebow doesn't fit well into the plans. After all, Broncos' football is a balance of a tough running game and a high powered passing attack. Kubiak and Dennison would both probably want a strong armed gunslinger at quarterback and that is not Tebow.

I can see what you're saying. The one thing I will say though is that I noticed a concerted effort on Tebow's part in the preseason to scramble out of the pocket and look to pass first. It was something that impressed and shocked me because I knew that was probably not his instinct and it probably speaks to his coachability.

Obviously he had the run that resulted in the rib injury, but that was the last play of a game and should probably be looked at differently. I honestly took a lot of confidence away from his preseason performance.

Elevation inc
12-09-2010, 08:54 AM
Lancane, how do you think Tebow would fare in the PA/Bootleg driven offense we had that Plummer ran? I happen to think that offense could be well suited to Tebow, but I have not studied him as much as you.
I am of the belief that Pat wants to go back to what he knows and I think the next HC is going to be Rick Dennison when all is said and done. Or at the very least it will be someone from that tree. I have been wrong once before though.

i think dennison as a HC is a closer option than many realize, I actually would have been fine with him as a HC before the MCD saga.....maybe a Kubiak as OC/ Dennison HC tandem even.....doubtful kubiak gets a HC job right after being let go even in denver most fired coaches have to go the cordinator route before getting a HC gig again....

people laugh at the dennison thing, but it may be a reality, although i really hope if he did come we dont go back to a full ZBS scheme, the scheme we run now is a power scheme with the ZBS sprinkled in and I think that would still work for those guys and the OL we have now I have big hopes in....im seeing huge improvment from beadles and walton, and clady and harris are returning to healthy form, and kuper also looks to be over his injuries as well....

chazoe60
12-09-2010, 08:56 AM
i think dennison as a HC is a closer option than many realize, I actually would have been fine with him as a HC before the MCD saga.....maybe a Kubiak as OC/ Dennison HC tandem even.....doubtful kubiak gets a HC job right after being let go even in denver most fired coaches have to go the cordinator route before getting a HC gig again....

people laugh at the dennison thing, but it may be a reality, although i really hope if he did come we dont go back to a full ZBS scheme, the scheme we run now is a power scheme with the ZBS sprinkled in and I think that would still work for those guys and the OL we have now I have big hopes in....im seeing huge improvment from beadles and walton, and clady and harris are returning to healthy form, and kuper also looks to be over his injuries as well....

The thing about Dennison is that he is uber smart. He's the kind of smart that knows how to adapt. He will see what we have on our OL and adapt accordingly, IMHO.

Lancane
12-09-2010, 09:02 AM
i think dennison as a HC is a closer option than many realize, I actually would have been fine with him as a HC before the MCD saga.....maybe a Kubiak as OC/ Dennison HC tandem even.....doubtful kubiak gets a HC job right after being let go even in denver most fired coaches have to go the cordinator route before getting a HC gig again....

people laugh at the dennison thing, but it may be a reality, although i really hope if he did come we dont go back to a full ZBS scheme, the scheme we run now is a power scheme with the ZBS sprinkled in and I think that would still work for those guys and the OL we have now I have big hopes in....im seeing huge improvment from beadles and walton, and clady and harris are returning to healthy form, and kuper also looks to be over his injuries as well....

Good point Elevation,

Actually the three names that are becoming more frequently mentioned as the next possible Head Coach are Dennison, Kubiak and Fassel. I wouldn't be surprised at all to hear we hired one as the head coach and the other as the offensive coordinator. But, if anyone of those three are named HC, then Tebow is likely done in Denver, they all three like the big arm gunslingers and run balanced offenses but have high powered passing attacks.

And yes, the zone blocking scheme is very likely to return, but like you...I don't see that as a problem for the guys we have.

Dirk
12-09-2010, 09:10 AM
Steve Young sucked so bad in Tampa Bay that the fans were throwing crap at him! Then he sat what, five seasons before getting a shot.

I'm softening the blow...though a lot of fans are not going to buy it...fans are if anything passionate and due to that at times unreasonable. But the odds are stacked against Tebow, I think the organization knows this and that is why I feel that Bowlen hasn't made an issue out of it. Let's face it, the papers and NFL analysts have all brought it up, that it should be time to put Tebow in for valuable experience, the fans are chanting his name almost every game...it will get worse now because they can't express their irritation towards McDaniels anymore.

Depending on who we hire to be the next General Manager and the next Head Coach, I would not be surprised one bit if our first round pick ended up being Ryan Mallett...and that's just being honest!

The time Young spent in Tampa isn't really fair. He was on a Tampa team that sucked so bad. That is a mulligan to me. Besides, it was his first 2 years in the league on a terrible team.

And yeah, he sat behind Montana because....well, Montana was Montana.

I think that Tebow should be given a shot for the rest of the season. I want to SEE IT for myself before I pass ANY judgement on if he can or cannot become and NFL QB. Analysts/Pundits are wrong all the time. Not too many thought Rivers would be as good as he is either.

Lancane
12-09-2010, 09:21 AM
The time Young spent in Tampa isn't really fair. He was on a Tampa team that sucked so bad. That is a mulligan to me. Besides, it was his first 2 years in the league on a terrible team.

And yeah, he sat behind Montana because....well, Montana was Montana.

I think that Tebow should be given a shot for the rest of the season. I want to SEE IT for myself before I pass ANY judgement on if he can or cannot become and NFL QB. Analysts/Pundits are wrong all the time. Not too many thought Rivers would be as good as he is either.

Like I said before...I'm softening the blow. And everyone wants to see Tebow play before really deciding one way or another, but if we don't see him start a single game in the next four, then that tells me that what the pundits have said, is actually true. And they may be wrong more then they are right, but history speaks for itself, and all signs point to him being a bust.

;)

Dirk
12-09-2010, 09:28 AM
Like I said before...I'm softening the blow. And everyone wants to see Tebow play before really deciding one way or another, but if we don't see him start a single game in the next four, then that tells me that what the pundits have said, is actually true. And they may be wrong more then they are right, but history speaks for itself, and all signs point to him being a bust.

;)

I hear what you are saying. I am just of the mind that I give a man a shot at his dreams if there is a potential for that dream to come true.

It might not come true, but he has everything a team needs in a franchise QB except NFL field experience...and to throw it all away without even giving the kid a shot is rediculous.

Tned
12-09-2010, 09:28 AM
Like I said before...I'm softening the blow. And everyone wants to see Tebow play before really deciding one way or another, but if we don't see him start a single game in the next four, then that tells me that what the pundits have said, is actually true. And they may be wrong more then they are right, but history speaks for itself, and all signs point to him being a bust.

;)

If he doesn't play, it won't tell us anything. Until Tommy Maddox got hurt, the plan was that Big Ben would spend the entire first season on the bench. The plan with Palmer was to spend the entire first season on the bench.

Many organizations have the belief that rookie QBs should not be started. If it's true that Tebow will have a longer learning curve than QBs coming from a more pass happy offense, it might make that even more true in his case.

I would like to see him start at least a couple games, or at least get playing time, but even if he doesn't, I can't buy into that telling us anything about Tebow's long term prospects as an NFL QB.

TXBRONC
12-09-2010, 09:43 AM
Let's be honest, Tim Tebow has in a capacity, indeed neutered this organization. Depending on how the front office wants to go forward, it will in fact play a huge factor in the coming months!

A head coach, at least a smart, proven head coach will not want to be told that this is your franchise quarterback, end of story. Gruden might run with it, but I don't see Denver dishing out 6 million a year for his salary or for that matter on another proven, big name coach.

Some of the hot offensive coordinators will be the same way in that regard, they're not going to want to come to a city where the fans are already in an uproar, already lost a franchise-esque quarterback, forced to use a quarterback they're not comfortable with and try and win, because if it doesn't work, it's their careers that will be damaged. Even above average defensive coordinators know the quarterback is usually the figurehead of a franchise, that's why Spagnuolo went out and got Bradford, Cowher drafted Roethlisberger and so on. No respectable or experienced coach is going to bank their careers on Tebow, they'll give him a shot...but it also depends on what they see, because they will be looking at film of him and determining if he is capable or if they need to go in another direction.

If I was Pat Bowlen, I would take Tebow aside and tell him, "Hey, sorry things have turned out this way...but, I can not guarantee that you'll be the starting quarterback in the future or at anytime with this team. You may be asked to try another position and be utilized on trick plays...but, we have to do what is best for us, and that's up to the coach and the staff. If you want, I'll try and trade you to another team, but I'm sure they'll give no guarantees either."

And if we look at the top candidates for the head coach position, most of them will want a big armed quarterback that fits their ideal quarterback for the position. Kubiak, Harbaugh, Fassel, Dennison, Phillips, Rivera all like strong armed quarterbacks, or have been part of winning teams led by such players, that is etched into their psyche. If Bowlen and the front office brass are dead set on Tebow being the future, then look for us to possibly have issues and have coaches that are as inexperienced as those we have now on the staff, or worse.

I personally have watched hours of tape on Tebow and am willing to admit that I like his physical toughness, he's got the physique and size that is ideal for a starting quarterback at this level...but his arm is not the greatest, his release and accuracy are at best questionable, he doesn't throw a tight spiral and he seems to lack velocity on his throws. I like his drive to win...but that is not enough in my opinion. And Denver fans are not going to wait a year or two to see what this kid can do, the fans have been robbed of a franchise quarterback, few if any believe in Orton as the future. And if Denver is stubborn, we could be stuck with a questionable coaching staff and remain a gutter franchise for a couple more years.

If Bowlen wants to win, he needs experienced coaches and has to be willing to let them get the players that fit their schemes to give them a chance to win. Otherwise, firing McDaniels was absolutely fruitless and we'll just continue to be mediocre.

This is a sticky wicket. On the one hand I don't think a new head coach should be saddle with trying make a square peg fit into a round hole. But I don't think a new head coach should just blindly cast the kid to the side without a real thoughtful evaluation. If he comes to the determination that Tebow wont be able to cut it then fine. What you saying about a new head coach being saddled with guy that doesn't fit his scheme is at it's core McDaniels/Cutler saga. I know there are plenty other dynamics that were at work in that mess like the fact Cutler was already an experienced starter but again at it's core I think is what happened. McDaniels wanted his guy and was willing to deal Cutler to get him.

I see something a little different than you do about Tebow. I was under the impression he didn't throw with a lot of velocity and that he could throw a tight spiral but from what I saw he does both of those things. He has goofy assed delivery to be sure but so does Philip Rivers. Our new head coach whomever that will be should common sense and not try and re-invent the wheel like McDaniels did.

Dreadnought
12-09-2010, 09:52 AM
If he doesn't play, it won't tell us anything. Until Tommy Maddox got hurt, the plan was that Big Ben would spend the entire first season on the bench. The plan with Palmer was to spend the entire first season on the bench.

Many organizations have the belief that rookie QBs should not be started. If it's true that Tebow will have a longer learning curve than QBs coming from a more pass happy offense, it might make that even more true in his case.

I would like to see him start at least a couple games, or at least get playing time, but even if he doesn't, I can't buy into that telling us anything about Tebow's long term prospects as an NFL QB.

I tend towards that old school approach myself.

In Tebow's favor? He's bright. He'll work his ass off. He's physically gifted (unlike, say, Griese). He's tough. He'll put in crazy hours in the film room and practice field if that's what it takes (unlike, say, Plummer). Plus, he's pretty unlikely to show up on a Police blotter. He has proven leadership abilities

Against? Questionable mechanics and a sometimes wobbly ball. Big Freakin' Deal. He's more than worth a shot.

Krugan
12-09-2010, 10:08 AM
This is why the FO needs to force the coaches hand the next 3 weeks(not counting this week) to play tebow.

The record isnt important anymore, but seeing if the investment that was made into this frist round pick is worth persuing.

Also it would be critical to have that information out there for whomever the next group of coaches and what ever GM( I hope) that comes to town.

Just tossing away the investment without ever seeing the live product is just stupid.

Traveler
12-09-2010, 10:11 AM
Let me preface what I'm about to say by first admittting I wasn't thrilled with the selection of Tebow in the first place. I do have doubts that Tebow can become an elite or even servicable QB, but I'm not ready to declare him a failure.

Having said that, Tebow has a skill set that any new coach worth his salt should try to develop. My preference would be the new HC has a background running a spread offense so as not to completely start from scratch with a new scheme, but tweak it to better fit Tebow's strengths.

I would like to see the team get him more involved now to see if indeed they might have to draft another QBOTF. Then, and only then, would I be willing to see them scrap everything and go back to the WCO everyone is familiar with.

Dreadnought
12-09-2010, 10:15 AM
Let me preface what I'm about to say by first admittting I wasn't thrilled with the selection of Tebow in the first place. I do have doubts that Tebow can become an elite or even servicable QB, but I'm not ready to declare him a failure.

Having said that, Tebow has a skill set that any new coach worth his salt should try to develop. My preference would be the new HC has a background running a spread offense so as not to completely start from scratch with new new scheme, but tweak it to better fit Tebow's strengths.

I would like to see the team get him more involved now to see if indeed they might have to draft another QBOTF. Then, and only then, would I be willing to see them scrap everything and go back to the WCO everyone is familiar with.

I will only disagree insofar as you kind of imply that Tebow couldn't work in and thrive in a WCO or some variant. Give him a projector and a playbook and he'll learn it. Can he execute same? Million $ queston of course, but I really don't want to sell him short.

TXBRONC
12-09-2010, 10:21 AM
I tend towards that old school approach myself.

In Tebow's favor? He's bright. He'll work his ass off. He's physically gifted (unlike, say, Griese). He's tough. He'll put in crazy hours in the film room and practice field if that's what it takes (unlike, say, Plummer). Plus, he's pretty unlikely to show up on a Police blotter. He has proven leadership abilities

Against? Questionable mechanics and a sometimes wobbly ball. Big Freakin' Deal. He's more than worth a shot.

I hope Tebow gets a chance to succeed.

OrangeHoof
12-09-2010, 10:40 AM
I hate the phrase "moving forward".....I can't stand it!! :mad:

The history on Tebow is that he's more effective moving forward than he is moving backwards so I voted yes.

PAINTERDAVE
12-09-2010, 11:31 AM
Let's be honest, Tim Tebow has in a capacity, indeed neutered this organization. Depending on how the front office wants to go forward, it will in fact play a huge factor in the coming months!

A head coach, at least a smart, proven head coach will not want to be told that this is your franchise quarterback, end of story. Gruden might run with it, but I don't see Denver dishing out 6 million a year for his salary or for that matter on another proven, big name coach.

Some of the hot offensive coordinators will be the same way in that regard, they're not going to want to come to a city where the fans are already in an uproar, already lost a franchise-esque quarterback, forced to use a quarterback they're not comfortable with and try and win, because if it doesn't work, it's their careers that will be damaged. Even above average defensive coordinators know the quarterback is usually the figurehead of a franchise, that's why Spagnuolo went out and got Bradford, Cowher drafted Roethlisberger and so on. No respectable or experienced coach is going to bank their careers on Tebow, they'll give him a shot...but it also depends on what they see, because they will be looking at film of him and determining if he is capable or if they need to go in another direction.

If I was Pat Bowlen, I would take Tebow aside and tell him, "Hey, sorry things have turned out this way...but, I can not guarantee that you'll be the starting quarterback in the future or at anytime with this team. You may be asked to try another position and be utilized on trick plays...but, we have to do what is best for us, and that's up to the coach and the staff. If you want, I'll try and trade you to another team, but I'm sure they'll give no guarantees either."

And if we look at the top candidates for the head coach position, most of them will want a big armed quarterback that fits their ideal quarterback for the position. Kubiak, Harbaugh, Fassel, Dennison, Phillips, Rivera all like strong armed quarterbacks, or have been part of winning teams led by such players, that is etched into their psyche. If Bowlen and the front office brass are dead set on Tebow being the future, then look for us to possibly have issues and have coaches that are as inexperienced as those we have now on the staff, or worse.

I personally have watched hours of tape on Tebow and am willing to admit that I like his physical toughness, he's got the physique and size that is ideal for a starting quarterback at this level...but his arm is not the greatest, his release and accuracy are at best questionable, he doesn't throw a tight spiral and he seems to lack velocity on his throws. I like his drive to win...but that is not enough in my opinion. And Denver fans are not going to wait a year or two to see what this kid can do, the fans have been robbed of a franchise quarterback, few if any believe in Orton as the future. And if Denver is stubborn, we could be stuck with a questionable coaching staff and remain a gutter franchise for a couple more years.

If Bowlen wants to win, he needs experienced coaches and has to be willing to let them get the players that fit their schemes to give them a chance to win. Otherwise, firing McDaniels was absolutely fruitless and we'll just continue to be mediocre.

Disagree.

You saying this stuff does NOT make it so.

Why are you so invested in Tebow's failure/departure?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpS50GBFDpg

You claim you have wached all the film on him...
and use that as an argument to slam him...
but I think this video speaks volumes..
while your words are like the buzzing of a fly on a window screen.

BroncoJoe
12-09-2010, 11:33 AM
I personally have watched hours of tape on Tebow

Seriously - who does this unless you have a job in the NFL?

Never quite understood that.

PAINTERDAVE
12-09-2010, 11:36 AM
Like I said before...I'm softening the blow. And everyone wants to see Tebow play before really deciding one way or another, but if we don't see him start a single game in the next four, then that tells me that what the pundits have said, is actually true. And they may be wrong more then they are right, but history speaks for itself, and all signs point to him being a bust.

;)

More claptrap and smackery.

shank
12-09-2010, 11:44 AM
Seriously - who does this unless you have a job in the NFL?

Never quite understood that.

i don't know joe. i once got a job as a special education teacher because i put that i had seen forrest gump on my resume.

TXBRONC
12-09-2010, 12:10 PM
Seriously - who does this unless you have a job in the NFL?

Never quite understood that.

Top said he watched hours of game film on Orton.

BroncoStud
12-09-2010, 12:14 PM
I think Tebow will be a good NFL QB. To get rid of him at this point would be the dumbest decision this front office has made since neglecting to hire a GM 2 years ago.

McDaniels knows how to develop QB's, it's what he does. He saw something in Tebow, the same thing that Gruden saw, and he has spent this season grooming him for the job. I would REALLY like to see how well McDaniels has prepared Tim. There are so many things you can do with Tebow and he gets rid of the ball so quickly. His arm is solid, his legs are solid, his leadership is off the charts... I think only the ignorant and close-minded don't see a winner in this kid.

He has 100X the physical and leadership tools that Matt Cassel does, and Cassel has his team in 1st place. The guy is a football player, he is the Peyton Hillis of QB's.

BroncoStud
12-09-2010, 12:15 PM
Top said he watched hours of game film on Orton.

OMG, talk about a BORING way to spend your time. At least Tebow is fun to watch, hell, I get sick to my stomach watching Orton play every Sunday let alone watching his vomit-inducing gamefilm from Chicago and Purdue...

chazoe60
12-09-2010, 12:28 PM
OMG, talk about a BORING way to spend your time. At least Tebow is fun to watch, hell, I get sick to my stomach watching Orton play every Sunday let alone watching his vomit-inducing gamefilm from Chicago and Purdue...

No kidding. I didn't think it would be possible to make 3000+yards passing in 12 games look boring but somehow Orton has managed to do so.

dogfish
12-09-2010, 12:42 PM
How many left handed quarterbacks have won more then one Super Bowl? Absolutely zero...that's right, only two have won it...but that's all. How long did it take for Steve Young to become a starter? Try seven seasons...hope we don't have to wait that freaking long!



how many super bowls did dan marino win with his right arm?

meaningless stat. . .

TXBRONC
12-09-2010, 12:42 PM
OMG, talk about a BORING way to spend your time. At least Tebow is fun to watch, hell, I get sick to my stomach watching Orton play every Sunday let alone watching his vomit-inducing gamefilm from Chicago and Purdue...

I don't sick to my stomach but when it's late in a game and we're behind haven't been very hopeful that Orton can pull the game out of the fire.

Tned
12-09-2010, 01:05 PM
I will only disagree insofar as you kind of imply that Tebow couldn't work in and thrive in a WCO or some variant. Give him a projector and a playbook and he'll learn it. Can he execute same? Million $ queston of course, but I really don't want to sell him short.

I know I'm a little guilty of nostalgic thinking here, but can you imagine Tebow running the misdirection/bootleg type offense that Shanahan/Kubiak ran with Elway and Plummer? That would create fits for defensive coordinators.

Ravage!!!
12-09-2010, 01:09 PM
It will be interesting.

I know that if I have a commodity, that has some high value because of the unknown factor, then I wouldn't show it off in fear that it might lower the value.

It might be good business sense, NOT to play Tebow at this point, until we have a new coaching staff in place.

If they (the new staff) want Tebow, and plan to use him, then the only thing Tebow has lost if 4 games. If the coaching staff would rather move in a different direction and spend that pick on Mallet, then Tebow has more value without stepping onto the field as a starter, purely because of the "unknown" factor.

Reasons for getting rid of him are obvious for everyone in football. New staff wanting to draft their own guy.

Ravage!!!
12-09-2010, 01:10 PM
I know I'm a little guilty of nostalgic thinking here, but can you imagine Tebow running the misdirection/bootleg type offense that Shanahan/Kubiak ran with Elway and Plummer? That would create fits for defensive coordinators.

Depends if Tebow evolves into a good pocket passer. If he doesn't, then the defense treats him as they did Plummer.

T.K.O.
12-09-2010, 01:11 PM
well.....i dont want "tim tebow moving backward":beer:

Ravage!!!
12-09-2010, 01:12 PM
how many super bowls did dan marino win with his right arm?

meaningless stat. . .

uhmmm.. dog. Thats not exactly comparing oranges to oranges. If you were, you would ask how many of the right handed QBs, that have won Super Bowls, have won more than one.

Dreadnought
12-09-2010, 01:14 PM
It will be interesting.

I know that if I have a commodity, that has some high value because of the unknown factor, then I wouldn't show it off in fear that it might lower the value.

It might be good business sense, NOT to play Tebow at this point, until we have a new coaching staff in place.

If they (the new staff) want Tebow, and plan to use him, then the only thing Tebow has lost if 4 games. If the coaching staff would rather move in a different direction and spend that pick on Mallet, then Tebow has more value without stepping onto the field as a starter, purely because of the "unknown" factor.

Reasons for getting rid of him are obvious for everyone in football. New staff wanting to draft their own guy.

Rav, didn't we just blessedly get rid of a doosh who was willing to tank his team's prospects so he could get "his" guy? Why basically ran out a promising QB sight unseen for no better reason than that?

I would as Bowlen demand that the new coach give Tebow a fair look and opportunity as a condition of employment. If he's that stubborn as to think he can judge the guy without having had him put in any meaningful game time I don't want him!

jhildebrand
12-09-2010, 01:17 PM
At this point it is hard not to say YES I WANT TEBOW on the roster going forward based on the draft picks this team has wrapped up in him alone!

Draft picks aside, I have no idea! I haven't seen enough. I know the guy can scramble for 1 yard. GREAT! I know he can throw an ugly duckling 2 yard TD pass. GREAT!

I want to see Tebow get significant playing time as a starter and with the full offense not a dialed down affair. Once that happens I would be more inclined to say whether or not my perception leads me to believe he is worth keeping.

EDIT: I posted in another thread yesterday, if there is any chance this team might try to trade Tim Tebow then you don't play him under any circumstances! You let the intrigue of the little bit of film the league has on him pique their interest. However, Brady Quinn was drafted in much the same manner as Tebow. We all saw what Quinn was worth to his team just a few short years later. Our chances of getting a stud RB from the 7th round is slim and none.

Ravage!!!
12-09-2010, 01:24 PM
Rav, didn't we just blessedly get rid of a doosh who was willing to tank his team's prospects so he could get "his" guy? Why basically ran out a promising QB sight unseen for no better reason than that?

I would as Bowlen demand that the new coach give Tebow a fair look and opportunity as a condition of employment. If he's that stubborn as to think he can judge the guy without having had him put in any meaningful game time I don't want him!

I somewhat agree. But this isn't a situation where we have a pro-bowl QB, 3 year vet, sitting on the roster. We have a QB that's thrown one (1) NFL pass. SO I don't quite look at it the same way.

I'm not one that is 100% behind the idea of getting rid of Tebow. But I can see how it could happen, and why. He's a BIG project. Most coaches don't use 4 picks on projects like that, and when a new coaching staff comes in... they may not want someone ELSE's project.

I see what you are saying, but this isn't a proven commodity. Its an unknown. An unknown that not even the coaches would have a clue about. They could look at that as a blessing, or look at it as a crap shoot.... and when your career and MILLIONS of dollars are on the line, that may not be a crap-shoot you want to hitch your wagon too. Who could blame them for not?

Tned
12-09-2010, 01:29 PM
Depends if Tebow evolves into a good pocket passer. If he doesn't, then the defense treats him as they did Plummer.

The "myth" of the league wide blueprint to stop Plummer, is much greater than the reality. The reality is that no team, with the possible exception of the Steelers in the AFCCG was ever able to prevent the Broncos from running their misdirection offense, which included designed roll outs/boot legs. The ONLY team that was truly successful in stopping that offense was a team called the Broncos, when Kubiak left and they brought in Heimerdinger to implement a new, higher flying offense in preparation for Cutler, which failed miserably and resulted in Shanahan having to fire his good friend, Heimerdinger.

BroncoStud
12-09-2010, 01:30 PM
how many super bowls did dan marino win with his right arm?

meaningless stat. . .

Isn't like 90% of the population right-handed? So wouldn't that likely transition to sports as well? Of course more right-handers have won multiple Super Bowls becase there are a LOT MORE OF THEM.

Lan we reaching on that one.

D1g1tal j1m
12-09-2010, 01:39 PM
Without seeing Tebow perform as a starter from the beginning of an NFL game until the final whistle nobody can say what we have. Tebow may well become a solid # 1 starter in the NFL or may become Couch or Carr but without seeing him perform for an entire game it's impossible to tell what he will be.
You can watch all the game tape of the preseason you want that is not a good enohgh barometer of how he will play/perform in a regular season game.
I will make my opinion after I see he on the field as the starting QB in an actual game (or two). Until then, I'm neutral/undecided on the issue...

dogfish
12-09-2010, 01:44 PM
The "myth" of the league wide blueprint to stop Plummer, is much greater than the reality. The reality is that no team, with the possible exception of the Steelers in the AFCCG was ever able to prevent the Broncos from running their misdirection offense, which included designed roll outs/boot legs. The ONLY team that was truly successful in stopping that offense was a team called the Broncos, when Kubiak left and they brought in Heimerdinger to implement a new, higher flying offense in preparation for Cutler, which failed miserably and resulted in Shanahan having to fire his good friend, Heimerdinger.

more to the point, people STILL can't stop that shit in houston. . . misdirection WCO with a ZBS running attack, and their offense is doing just fine. . . if we end up hiring a defensive-minded HC, or a HC that runs the WCO, i'd be plenty happy to see kubiak brought back as assistant HC/offense-- i think a lot of the bootleg stuff that we used to get plummer out on the edge and then reduce his reads to one half of the field would be ideal to ease tim into the starting role. . . lots of run plays, including some designed QB stuff, and lots of play-action roll-outs with maybe two reads and then take off if it's not there. . . give him a comfort level by working out of shotgun in any obvious passing situation. . .

maybe even keep mike mccoy around to help implement elements of the spread, since tim's comfortable in it and already has a year in it at this level. . .

in any case, i've always thought kubes is a great QB coach, and i think he could find plenty of ways to use tebow. . .

jhildebrand
12-09-2010, 01:49 PM
The "myth" of the league wide blueprint to stop Plummer, is much greater than the reality. The reality is that no team, with the possible exception of the Steelers in the AFCCG was ever able to prevent the Broncos from running their misdirection offense, which included designed roll outs/boot legs. The ONLY team that was truly successful in stopping that offense was a team called the Broncos, when Kubiak left and they brought in Heimerdinger to implement a new, higher flying offense in preparation for Cutler, which failed miserably and resulted in Shanahan having to fire his good friend, Heimerdinger.

Huh? :confused:

I recall the next season had us opening in St Louis and Plummer gave up 5 turnovers in large part due to the fact St Louis copied Pitt's D to a T. They had a DL or LB who had the discipline to stay home and Plummer suffered. Teams did that the rest of the season.

SR
12-09-2010, 01:58 PM
Steve Young sucked so bad in Tampa Bay that the fans were throwing crap at him! Then he sat what, five seasons before getting a shot.

I'm softening the blow...though a lot of fans are not going to buy it...fans are if anything passionate and due to that at times unreasonable. But the odds are stacked against Tebow, I think the organization knows this and that is why I feel that Bowlen hasn't made an issue out of it. Let's face it, the papers and NFL analysts have all brought it up, that it should be time to put Tebow in for valuable experience, the fans are chanting his name almost every game...it will get worse now because they can't express their irritation towards McDaniels anymore.

Depending on who we hire to be the next General Manager and the next Head Coach, I would not be surprised one bit if our first round pick ended up being Ryan Mallett...and that's just being honest!

Troy Aikman won ONE game his rookie year and ended up winning three Super Bowls afterward.

Give the dude a frickin chance. Just because you have your opinion doesn't make it gospel, doesn't make our opinions any less valid, and doesn't mean Tebow won't do what you think he can't.

Tned
12-09-2010, 02:00 PM
Huh? :confused:

I recall the next season had us opening in St Louis and Plummer gave up 5 turnovers in large part due to the fact St Louis copied Pitt's D to a T. They had a DL or LB who had the discipline to stay home and Plummer suffered. Teams did that the rest of the season.

You my friend, don't have a very good memory. That's not what happened at all.

Tned
12-09-2010, 02:04 PM
Huh? :confused:

I recall the next season had us opening in St Louis and Plummer gave up 5 turnovers in large part due to the fact St Louis copied Pitt's D to a T. They had a DL or LB who had the discipline to stay home and Plummer suffered. Teams did that the rest of the season.


You my friend, don't have a very good memory. That's not what happened at all.

Here you go, rather than you telling me how I'm wrong, and me proving you wrong, we'll just jump past the dance.

Here is a play-by-play break down of the St. Louis game, week 1, 2006. Heimerdinger removed the Shanahan/Kubiak, misdirection/boot leg offense, not St. Louis.




Notice the move to traditional drop back passing, behind an o-line completely incapable of straight pass blocking.

Blast from the past, Part III
Originally posted 09-11-2006

1. drop back, pass to Alexander left.
2. drop back, pass to Walker left sideline
3. drop back, pass intended for Scheffler, over back shoulder/behind him- incomplete
x sack given up by foster.
4. drop back, in defenders grasp, left handed underhand toss to M. bell completed
5. play action drop, over middle to Smith
x drop back, sack (beat mike Bell) - fumble
6. drop back, under pressure and back peddling, intended for Smith, intercepted, Smith had no play on ball
x. Playaction, boot leg left, sacked by unblocked DB.
7. Screen pass to M. Bell to right side.
8. Play action, straight drop, hit Smith at right numbers
9. screen to left, M. Bell
10. play action, straight drop, screen to Scheffler to left
11. straight drop, under pressure, spins out of sack, hits Alexander near left sideline

End of half Summary

Plummer 9-11 94 0/1 (td/ind) 64.4 (rating)
3 sacks
9 completions, all but one was well placed for receiver (the left handed flip was both ill advised and high)
2 incompletions, both bad throws (one was behind Scheffler, the other was intercepted and Smith had no play on the ball)
1 fumble (sack, Plummer never looked in direction of rusher and never saw the hit coming)


12. short drop, pass intended for Walker at left numbers on slant, throw low and off walkers hands
13. straight drop, short lob intended for walker on sideline who jumped over defender, pass bounced out of hands and off face mask, a little long.
14. short drop, pass intended for walker near left numbers on slant, pass hit Walker in hands and dropped.
x. straight drop, sacked by three defenders before reaching his 5 step drop point.
15. short drop. Short pass intended for Smith near left numbers, badly overthrown, no chance of being caught. (appeared to be mixup on what route was being run).
16. STraight drop, pass intended for Smith at right sideline, thrown behind smith
17. straight drop, screen pass to M. Bell to left side.
18. Short drop, short lob to left sideline, catch made over back of defender (PI declined), pass was high.
19. Play action straight drop, converted to rollout because of pressure, throw intended for Scheffler who was interfered with and knocked off his feet, but flag was picked up with claim that defender was also going for ball. Pass appeared to be offline, but no good camera angle to tell if it was catchable if Scheffler hadn't had his feet cut out from underneath him.
20. Bootleg right, Devoe seperates from defender and is wide open on left side of field coming across middle, Jake throws high, floating 40 yard pass over Devoe and intercepted at 5 yard line.
21. Straight drop, lob pass intended for Smith at right sideline, pass a little long/high, and off Smiths fingers as it was batted away by defender running in stride with Smith.
22. Straight drop, pass to Smith at near left numbers on short curl route, slightly high (reach up, no jump)
23. Straight drop, throwin while back peddling because of pressure, pass intended for Walker, low and in front of Walker, who dove but the ball bounced.
x24x. Straight drop, pass intended for Walker on left sideline, lob pass, knocked away by defender, PI called.
24. Straight drop, screen attempt to T. Bell on right side, pass high and off Tatum's one outstretched hand.
25. short drop, pass to Walker between right numbers and hash mark on right side, pass hit Walker in stride.
26. Bootleg left, pass intended for Smith near left numbers, who was covered by defender. Defender tips ball which is intercepted by another defender.

Second half summary:

11 incompletions, of those:
1 dead on target, but dropped
2 slightly off target, but very catchable
5 poorly thrown, catchable with good to great effort by receiver (one INT)
2 impossible for receiver to catch (one INT)
1 not known (catch where Scheff was interfered with, but flag picked up, it is impossible to tell if ball was catchable from camer angles available).

4 completions, of those:
2 on target
2 slightly off target

Lancane
12-09-2010, 02:27 PM
Disagree.

You saying this stuff does NOT make it so.

Why are you so invested in Tebow's failure/departure?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpS50GBFDpg

You claim you have wached all the film on him...
and use that as an argument to slam him...
but I think this video speaks volumes..
while your words are like the buzzing of a fly on a window screen.

Youtube counts as video?...look Painter, you and the rest of those that disagree, that's all fine and dandy. But watching a two-minute clip from pre-season is not film. And before people start running their mouths, I've already said the kids got the physical gifts to succeed, not that he won't...the odds are stacked against him, including history and I hope he can change that. I've only said what he has or had issue with. And yes, some coaches are not going to say, "Joy, I have to work with a kid I don't want to" that can effect hiring someone of considerable note. Those getting anal and are acting up...but that doesn't help anything.

I pointed out the worst scenario, I didn't vote no in the poll either. All I did was simply mentioned what could happen and what issues there are with his play that needed fixed, the odds are stacked against him succeeding...but posters should remember that I also said Denver would draft him and I could see why.

:coffee:

Tned
12-09-2010, 02:29 PM
^^^ What does that prove? I am not saying you are wrong Tned. I am simply saying that is was shown time and again teams were becoming more disciplined against our O and making sure a DL or LB maintained the backside of the play.



Try reading it.

However, I will explain. I'm not sure if you watched or remember the game, so hopefully it will make sense.

From the very first play called in week 1 of 2006, there was a clear move away from the bootleg/misdirection offense. They didn't call the first bootleg until the 9th passing play of the game. That was not stopped by a disciplined LB or DL, but instead a blown blocking assignment. A DB lined up opposite the LT came in completely unblocked on Plummer's blind side and hit him as he was about to make the turn to the right on a bootleg.

They didn't attempt another bootleg play until the 24th pass play of the game (well into the 2nd half). The bootleg play was there, was NOT covered by a disciplined LB or DL, and Jake simply made an awful throw to a wide open Devoe and it was picked.

The third and final bootleg attempt was the final pass attempt of the game (31st passing play), again, the Bootleg itself was fully effective and not blocked by a disciplined LB or DL. The ball was tipped (by a defender that came over the top of and contacted Rod Smith before the ball arrived and should have been PI) and was intercepted by a DB or LB that almost dropped the ball out of surprise.

Anyway, as to what "it proves", that should be very obvious. St. Louis did not "take away" the bootlegs and forced Jake into the pocket. Mike Heimerdinger "took away" the bootlegs and forced Jake to stay in the pocket.


Don't you find it a bit curious that following the Pitt loss the season before Shanahan opened this season up with substantially less boots?

No. Kubiak was gone, and they had drafted Cutler. Heimderdinger was brought in to create a more wide open passing offense that would better suit Jay's skill set.

Ravage!!!
12-09-2010, 02:32 PM
I pointed out the worst scenario, I didn't vote no in the poll either. All I did was simply mentioned what could happen and what issues there are with his play that needed fixed, the odds are stacked against him succeeding...but posters should remember that I also said Denver would draft him and I could see why. [/COLOR]

:coffee:

yes you did.. and I still blame you!! :laugh:

Lancane
12-09-2010, 04:41 PM
yes you did.. and I still blame you!! :laugh:

Thanks a lot Rav, blaming me...I wasn't the one making the draft picks! :tsk:

If you remember, I said I could see why Tebow appealed to McDaniels; he's smart, physical and tough, has a good disposition, well versed in the spread offensive system and has an uncanny drive to succeed. And do you remember who I compared him with? Joe Montana, he has a lot of the same questions surrounding him that Joe had coming into the NFL, especially in regards to mechanics, but he's got a better physique then Montana or Young to be honest. So don't blame me...sheesh, I wanted us to draft Sanchez the year before. But I do hope Tebow succeeds, and people need to realize that instead of labeling me as Anti-Tebow or some other crap and simply getting pissed because I bring up valid points.

I was the same way with Plummer, Griese, Brandstater, Jackson, Mauck and Van Pelt, Orton, Simms and Quinn...I don't buy into the whole, we drafted him so he's going to be special psyche. The only quarterback that we've drafted that I haven't been that way with was Cutler and that's because in him I saw the potential and talent to be up there with the upper echelon of quarterbacks.

;)

Juriga72
12-09-2010, 04:45 PM
I have a feeling Tebow will remind many here of one Tommy Maddux

Lancane
12-09-2010, 05:11 PM
I have a feeling Tebow will remind many here of one Tommy Maddux

It's a possibility Juriga, I've said it a couple times...but there is a vast difference between believing and being. We can all believe something, that doesn't mean it will be so...it's on him to prove one way or another. And people need to realize that there is a chance - odds are in favor of this, that he will be a bust. But if he is a bust at quarterback, I still would like to see him utilized, maybe at the tight end position or as a safety, he's physically gifted enough.

chazoe60
12-09-2010, 05:16 PM
I have a feeling Tebow will remind many here of one Tommy Maddux

Bad comparison becaus that would make Orton, John Elway and Orton is no John Elway.

Juriga72
12-09-2010, 05:28 PM
Bad comparison becaus that would make Orton, John Elway and Orton is no John Elway.

ouch... yea he's not even Gary Kubiak

Northman
12-09-2010, 05:29 PM
Im pretty much indifferent. I can live with Orton and trade Tebow if it brings a bunch of draft picks or players that can improve the team. If we keep him, great, i hope he turns out like he is supposed too.

Dzone
12-09-2010, 05:48 PM
Top said he watched hours of game film on Orton.

For real? Hours? Man, thats a dedicated fan. Watching hours of Orton game film would be pretty boring I would think

BroncoBJ
12-09-2010, 06:21 PM
So, you hope we win the next four games so we have absolutely no chance to draft Luck or Mallett? Even though, they look to be the next Elway and Marino...correct? Instead, your banking that Tebow will become the first left-handed quarterback (in history) to win more then one Super Bowl, let alone one...because only two have ever done it, in what? 90 years...

Okay, sure...can I get a bucket of BBQ'd pig ears with super power ingredients, like X-ray vision and oh, a million dollars while were at it...I'd also like to have sex with all the playboy bunnies from the last two decades, please?...pretty, pretty please?

;)

Well I'd never root for us to lose. ANd :lol: Thats all what scouts and analysts say. They are an analyst for a reason. They can say who they think is the best all day long. I don't want last year to go to waste by trading 3 picks to move back up and get him.

Plus, just cause its never happened, doesn't mean it cant happen. Tebow can be the 1st ;) ... I've never liked left handed qbs though. Still would be cool if Tebow got a shot and became very successful.

Another reason there hasn't been many succesful left handed qbs is because left handers are rare. Majority of people are right handers.

vandammage13
12-09-2010, 06:48 PM
Well I'd never root for us to lose. ANd :lol: Thats all what scouts and analysts say. They are an analyst for a reason. They can say who they think is the best all day long. I don't want last year to go to waste by trading 3 picks to move back up and get him.

Plus, just cause its never happened, doesn't mean it cant happen. Tebow can be the 1st ;) ... I've never liked left handed qbs though. Still would be cool if Tebow got a shot and became very successful.

Another reason there hasn't been many succesful left handed qbs is because left handers are rare. Majority of people are right handers.

Studies show that approximately 8% of the world's population is left handed....27 different qb's have won superbowls (2 of which are left handed).

So 7.5% of superbowl winning qb's were left handed in a world where 8% of the population is left handed. Sounds about right to me....

Cugel
12-09-2010, 07:25 PM
If you put Tebow's motor in a talent like Jay Cutler, wow imagine what you'd have.

That's the problem. He doesn't have elite talent. He's a great RUNNING QB, which is great if you're going to run the "wild-horses" offense -- but they're not.

The new coach probably will find little use for Tebow and will want a QB more like Orton -- a drop back passer, but with more talent to groom.

I would bet that Tebow will be replaced and the new GM will keep Orton around to start for next season while drafting a QB with the #1 pick.

That would be the long-term best move for the Broncos.

Lancane
12-09-2010, 07:28 PM
Studies show that approximately 8% of the world's population is left handed....27 different qb's have won superbowls (2 of which are left handed).

So 7.5% of superbowl winning qb's were left handed in a world where 8% of the population is left handed. Sounds about right to me....

And that is a fair argument, however...if you look at the rate of successful left-handed quarterbacks in the NFL, the numbers are staggering. The most noteworthy left-handed quarterback in the league at this time is Michael Vick.

Let's just hope he's better then any other left-handed quarterback that has played the game.

;)

chazoe60
12-09-2010, 07:28 PM
That's the problem. He doesn't have elite talent. He's a great RUNNING QB, which is great if you're going to run the "wild-horses" offense -- but they're not.

The new coach probably will find little use for Tebow and will want a QB more like Orton -- a drop back passer, but with more talent to groom.

I would bet that Tebow will be replaced and the new GM will keep Orton around to start for next season while drafting a QB with the #1 pick.

That would be the long-term best move for the Broncos.

You just described a recurring nightmare of mine. That scenario makes me want to puke.

Cugel
12-09-2010, 07:29 PM
ouch... yea he's not even Gary Kubiak

Anybody who thinks Tebow is "better" is living on pure hope and fantasy because there's absolutely NO evidence that he is.

The ONLY evidence we have is that McDaniels thought so little of Tebow's development that he didn't even throw him in when his job was almost gone. That means he didn't think Tebow was better than Kyle Orton at this point.

He was probably right. I think you'll see a BIT of Tebow, but he WON'T start this season. He's just not ready.

Whether he ever WILL be ready is another matter. :coffee:

shank
12-09-2010, 07:31 PM
Anybody who thinks Tebow is "better" is living on pure hope and fantasy because there's absolutely NO evidence that he is.

The ONLY evidence we have is that McDaniels thought so little of Tebow's development that he didn't even throw him in when his job was almost gone. That means he didn't think Tebow was better than Kyle Orton at this point.

He was probably right. I think you'll see a BIT of Tebow, but he WON'T start this season. He's just not ready.

Whether he ever WILL be ready is another matter. :coffee:

peyton hillis.

Lancane
12-09-2010, 07:38 PM
That's the problem. He doesn't have elite talent. He's a great RUNNING QB, which is great if you're going to run the "wild-horses" offense -- but they're not.

The new coach probably will find little use for Tebow and will want a QB more like Orton -- a drop back passer, but with more talent to groom.

I would bet that Tebow will be replaced and the new GM will keep Orton around to start for next season while drafting a QB with the #1 pick.

That would be the long-term best move for the Broncos.

And that is the basis of the argument that I've been implying...he has a lot of what you look for in a quarterback prospect, he lacks the natural talent and mechanics of the position, it doesn't mean I want him to fail...which seems to be what a large number of posters on here seem to think of me.

And what you're saying is very plausible, depending on who is hired...most of them will want to get the quarterback they want, the only reason the position was a 'sexy' position two years ago was in fact because we had a franchise-esque Pro-Bowl quarterback on the roster. I could easily see a new General Manager and Head Coach deciding to go in another direction, especially if they have not seen enough from him to believe he is the future, that is just being honest...not hateful.

Lancane
12-09-2010, 07:49 PM
peyton hillis.

John Riggins 71' - 85'
Jim Taylor 58' - 67'
Paul Hornung 57' - 66'
Larry Csonka 68' - 79'
Hugh McElhenny 52' - 64'
Red Grange 25' - 34'
Mike Alstott 96' - 07'

Most white running backs that were successful have been before the modern era, give Alstott, Csonka and Riggins. I mentioned Young, Esiason and Stabler as the most notable left-handed quarterbacks in NFL history. There is always a chance to find the next great white running back, but most times your left holding your johnson. There is a chance, but odds are distinctive for one reason, history repeats itself...betting against the odds like that, most of the time you'll lose to the house.

Dzone
12-09-2010, 08:09 PM
Rocky Bleier

dogfish
12-09-2010, 08:26 PM
maa tanuvasa

Cugel
12-09-2010, 08:32 PM
peyton hillis.

If you mean by this that McDaniels couldn't spot talent if it came up and bit him on the ass (or hit on his wife), well there's no argument.

But, the LACK OF EVIDENCE is not evidence. Unfortunately, the ONLY evidence we have is this:

1. McDaniels was reportedly desperate towards the end, but he still didn't throw Tebow in. Obviously he didn't think he was ready for whatever that's worth.

2. The NEW coach doesn't think Tebow's ready either -- since he's starting Kyle Orton Sunday.

Unless you want to leap to the conclusion that Tebow hit on Studesville's wife, we have a concurring opinion! :laugh:

robert ethan
12-09-2010, 08:38 PM
Do you want him on this roster? Plain and simple.

I want him as a Bronco not a doubt in my mind. This kid has a hell of a work ethic. You haze the living life out of him and he loves it, he wants it so bad. If you put Tebow's motor in a talent like Jay Cutler, wow imagine what you'd have. He will work as hard as he can, if we give him his shot at quarterback and he doesn't work out he will change positions. He wants to win, he's a hell of a competitor. That's something you cannot teach, something that I'm not willing to give up so easily. I agree he is not John Elway, or even Kyle Orton for that matter, he's something different. My feeling is we drafted this guy, he wants to win, he wants to play, and will do anything to prove he belongs as a Denver Bronco. He hasn't been asked to do much yet, but can you say he's really let you down? I'm not even saying bench Orton play Tebow, I'm just saying I think we could have something very special on this team, and I am by no means rushing to get rid of it.

Tebow has more natural talent than Neckblubber. Tim beat him in every Combine test including the ball speed of his passes.

horsepig
12-09-2010, 08:39 PM
Let's be honest, Tim Tebow has in a capacity, indeed neutered this organization. Depending on how the front office wants to go forward, it will in fact play a huge factor in the coming months!

A head coach, at least a smart, proven head coach will not want to be told that this is your franchise quarterback, end of story. Gruden might run with it, but I don't see Denver dishing out 6 million a year for his salary or for that matter on another proven, big name coach.

Some of the hot offensive coordinators will be the same way in that regard, they're not going to want to come to a city where the fans are already in an uproar, already lost a franchise-esque quarterback, forced to use a quarterback they're not comfortable with and try and win, because if it doesn't work, it's their careers that will be damaged. Even above average defensive coordinators know the quarterback is usually the figurehead of a franchise, that's why Spagnuolo went out and got Bradford, Cowher drafted Roethlisberger and so on. No respectable or experienced coach is going to bank their careers on Tebow, they'll give him a shot...but it also depends on what they see, because they will be looking at film of him and determining if he is capable or if they need to go in another direction.

If I was Pat Bowlen, I would take Tebow aside and tell him, "Hey, sorry things have turned out this way...but, I can not guarantee that you'll be the starting quarterback in the future or at anytime with this team. You may be asked to try another position and be utilized on trick plays...but, we have to do what is best for us, and that's up to the coach and the staff. If you want, I'll try and trade you to another team, but I'm sure they'll give no guarantees either."

And if we look at the top candidates for the head coach position, most of them will want a big armed quarterback that fits their ideal quarterback for the position. Kubiak, Harbaugh, Fassel, Dennison, Phillips, Rivera all like strong armed quarterbacks, or have been part of winning teams led by such players, that is etched into their psyche. If Bowlen and the front office brass are dead set on Tebow being the future, then look for us to possibly have issues and have coaches that are as inexperienced as those we have now on the staff, or worse.

I personally have watched hours of tape on Tebow and am willing to admit that I like his physical toughness, he's got the physique and size that is ideal for a starting quarterback at this level...but his arm is not the greatest, his release and accuracy are at best questionable, he doesn't throw a tight spiral and he seems to lack velocity on his throws. I like his drive to win...but that is not enough in my opinion. And Denver fans are not going to wait a year or two to see what this kid can do, the fans have been robbed of a franchise quarterback, few if any believe in Orton as the future. And if Denver is stubborn, we could be stuck with a questionable coaching staff and remain a gutter franchise for a couple more years.

If Bowlen wants to win, he needs experienced coaches and has to be willing to let them get the players that fit their schemes to give them a chance to win. Otherwise, firing McDaniels was absolutely fruitless and we'll just continue to be mediocre.

This Bullshit drives me ******* crazy. Have you not heard of a guy named Steve Young? Why does everybody seem to think Tebow can't p[lay?

Did anybody besides me see him in preseason? I saw flashes of a player that makes everybody around him better, makes them step their game up a notch.

I saw a QB that seemed to have a certain "surety" to some of his throws. Some of that old magic that we've been missing.

Bad mechanics? Horseshit! Ask Kenny Stabler about bad "mechanics". The guy is a ******* "PLAYER"!

Lancane
12-09-2010, 09:08 PM
This Bullshit drives me ******* crazy. Have you not heard of a guy named Steve Young? Why does everybody seem to think Tebow can't p[lay?

Did anybody besides me see him in preseason? I saw flashes of a player that makes everybody around him better, makes them step their game up a notch.

I saw a QB that seemed to have a certain "surety" to some of his throws. Some of that old magic that we've been missing.

Bad mechanics? Horseshit! Ask Kenny Stabler about bad "mechanics". The guy is a ******* "PLAYER"!

Again, another irrational post from member who doesn't comprehend what has been discussed nor glanced through the other important parts of other posts regarding the matter at hand. And for your information, I have mentioned Steve Young, Kenny Stabler, Boomer Esiason and others in some of my posts...the odds are against him if history has anything to do with it.

I do question him on a few things...but at the same time I have praised him as well, maybe not to your liking, but then I really don't give a shit, I'm allowed my opinion, something someone who's over-irrational and can not debate in a mature fashion wouldn't seem to understand.

Regarding the Pre-Season, I saw a lot of positive things from Tebow, everyone did. But I also saw several things that are still iffy as far as mechanics are concerned and a few other small issues, or did you miss part of the Minnesota game? Yeah, you can gleam highlights on Youtube, but that's a far cry from watching each individual play and descrying what is wrong. That's as pathetic as arguing in favor of Orton by utilizing stats, it doesn't show the whole picture.

Funny, I remember a lot of people in Arizona making similar arguments on behalf of Matt Leinart after he was drafted, another promising left-handed quarterback that had tremendous support of the fans, he played rather solidly in pre-season and where did that lead? I'm not against Tebow, but I won't lie and say there is nothing I see for cause to be concerned, because there is...if he surpasses his limitations and works out at least the majority of the issues with his mechanics, then he'll do well.

The surety comes from confidence, something he's always exuded to others who play with him, he has a strong drive to succeed...even when the odds are stacked against him. I hope he is overcomes everything and becomes a solid franchise quarterback, I never said I wished him to fail.

:coffee:

FanInAZ
12-09-2010, 10:03 PM
Tebow has not done anything that would cause me to not want him.

robert ethan
12-09-2010, 10:15 PM
.

:coffee:

Take it easy on the coffee, it's giving you acid reflux.

Dzone
12-09-2010, 10:20 PM
Tebow is a cash cow for the Broncos. He doesnt even need to play much and people still go berserk over him. That would be stupid to unload him..would hate to see him become a star for some other team
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/538485-tim-tebow-10-reasons-hell-still-be-a-star-even-without-josh-mcdaniels#page/1

horsepig
12-09-2010, 11:23 PM
Again, another irrational post from member who doesn't comprehend what has been discussed nor glanced through the other important parts of other posts regarding the matter at hand. And for your information, I have mentioned Steve Young, Kenny Stabler, Boomer Esiason and others in some of my posts...the odds are against him if history has anything to do with it.

I do question him on a few things...but at the same time I have praised him as well, maybe not to your liking, but then I really don't give a shit, I'm allowed my opinion, something someone who's over-irrational and can not debate in a mature fashion wouldn't seem to understand.

Regarding the Pre-Season, I saw a lot of positive things from Tebow, everyone did. But I also saw several things that are still iffy as far as mechanics are concerned and a few other small issues, or did you miss part of the Minnesota game? Yeah, you can gleam highlights on Youtube, but that's a far cry from watching each individual play and descrying what is wrong. That's as pathetic as arguing in favor of Orton by utilizing stats, it doesn't show the whole picture.

Funny, I remember a lot of people in Arizona making similar arguments on behalf of Matt Leinart after he was drafted, another promising left-handed quarterback that had tremendous support of the fans, he played rather solidly in pre-season and where did that lead? I'm not against Tebow, but I won't lie and say there is nothing I see for cause to be concerned, because there is...if he surpasses his limitations and works out at least the majority of the issues with his mechanics, then he'll do well.

The surety comes from confidence, something he's always exuded to others who play with him, he has a strong drive to succeed...even when the odds are stacked against him. I hope he is overcomes everything and becomes a solid franchise quarterback, I never said I wished him to fail.

:coffee:

For Christ's sake Lanane, take a break. Do you want to just overanalyze everything? I'm just asking to see the kid play.

I saw several tendancies from him that made me think he just might be a great QB, not just run of the mill, but we won't know until they let him play.

Lancane
12-10-2010, 12:33 AM
For Christ's sake Lanane, take a break. Do you want to just overanalyze everything? I'm just asking to see the kid play.

I saw several tendancies from him that made me think he just might be a great QB, not just run of the mill, but we won't know until they let him play.

Horsepig, the point is that I was simply making an analytical point of observation...

I've been backing up Tebow since before the draft, and that's the truth...so when people act like I'm a 'hater' I get a tad defensive. I think the world of the kid, I said that he has a lot of what people look for in a franchise quarterback and has a tremendous upside with the right 'coaching', but I worry that the coaching he had isn't enough...come on let's face it, Josh and Ben McDaniels, nor Mike McCoy are a Joe Lombardi, Brian Shottenheimer or even a Jim Fassel in that respect.

I just want to see the kid plant his feet better, use the rotation of his waist and shoulder motion more fluently and develop a more solid throwing motion. Notice how he pulls back high near the back of the cranium before he throws? He needs to keep his elbow level with his armpit using his waist and shoulder throwing forward not overhead, his accuracy would be better, the balls would have more velocity. It's a correctable quirk, but someone has to make the effort to fix it. We had a kid like that at Michigan State, the coaches used bungee-cords to limit the movement of his arm, even around campus so he got use to having his arm that way, but especially in practice. Difference is that he had a noodle arm, so fixing his mechanics only helped part of the problem, I think with Tebow having the right coaching...we'd likely be surprised how far he could throw it and the accuracy in which he did.

The only other things I'd like to see is him having a better pocket presence, we all remember the big hit he took against Pittsburgh, but part of that is the offensive line...I think were going to possibly have to draft another big tackle to play on the right side, Harris is likely gone after the year...oh, and I would also like to see someone teach him how to pump-fake, I think it would be of great help as he develops more into a pocket quarterback.

SR
12-10-2010, 05:16 AM
Again, another irrational post from member who doesn't comprehend what has been discussed nor glanced through the other important parts of other posts regarding the matter at hand. And for your information, I have mentioned Steve Young, Kenny Stabler, Boomer Esiason and others in some of my posts...the odds are against him if history has anything to do with it.

I do question him on a few things...but at the same time I have praised him as well, maybe not to your liking, but then I really don't give a shit, I'm allowed my opinion, something someone who's over-irrational and can not debate in a mature fashion wouldn't seem to understand.

Regarding the Pre-Season, I saw a lot of positive things from Tebow, everyone did. But I also saw several things that are still iffy as far as mechanics are concerned and a few other small issues, or did you miss part of the Minnesota game? Yeah, you can gleam highlights on Youtube, but that's a far cry from watching each individual play and descrying what is wrong. That's as pathetic as arguing in favor of Orton by utilizing stats, it doesn't show the whole picture.

Funny, I remember a lot of people in Arizona making similar arguments on behalf of Matt Leinart after he was drafted, another promising left-handed quarterback that had tremendous support of the fans, he played rather solidly in pre-season and where did that lead? I'm not against Tebow, but I won't lie and say there is nothing I see for cause to be concerned, because there is...if he surpasses his limitations and works out at least the majority of the issues with his mechanics, then he'll do well.

The surety comes from confidence, something he's always exuded to others who play with him, he has a strong drive to succeed...even when the odds are stacked against him. I hope he is overcomes everything and becomes a solid franchise quarterback, I never said I wished him to fail.

:coffee:

Your "know it all" and holier-than-thou attitude toward football is irrational.

Tebow is a rookie. He's not Peyton Manning and he hasn't been in the league for five years. You act like he's not coachable and he can't improve. You think that just because the odds might be mathematically against him that it's not worth it to give him a chance. He's not gonna do any worse than Orton has the past two seasons. He's not going to lose more games than Orton has. Jesus dude. If everyone thought like you no one would get a chance in this league except for those that are mathematically good and whom the odds favor right out of college.

Oh, and :coffee:

SR
12-10-2010, 05:18 AM
Horsepig, the point is that I was simply making an analytical point of observation...

I've been backing up Tebow since before the draft, and that's the truth...so when people act like I'm a 'hater' I get a tad defensive. I think the world of the kid, I said that he has a lot of what people look for in a franchise quarterback and has a tremendous upside with the right 'coaching', but I worry that the coaching he had isn't enough...come on let's face it, Josh and Ben McDaniels, nor Mike McCoy are a Joe Lombardi, Brian Shottenheimer or even a Jim Fassel in that respect.

I just want to see the kid plant his feet better, use the rotation of his waist and shoulder motion more fluently and develop a more solid throwing motion. Notice how he pulls back high near the back of the cranium before he throws? He needs to keep his elbow level with his armpit using his waist and shoulder throwing forward not overhead, his accuracy would be better, the balls would have more velocity. It's a correctable quirk, but someone has to make the effort to fix it. We had a kid like that at Michigan State, the coaches used bungee-cords to limit the movement of his arm, even around campus so he got use to having his arm that way, but especially in practice. Difference is that he had a noodle arm, so fixing his mechanics only helped part of the problem, I think with Tebow having the right coaching...we'd likely be surprised how far he could throw it and the accuracy in which he did.

The only other things I'd like to see is him having a better pocket presence, we all remember the big hit he took against Pittsburgh, but part of that is the offensive line...I think were going to possibly have to draft another big tackle to play on the right side, Harris is likely gone after the year...oh, and I would also like to see someone teach him how to pump-fake, I think it would be of great help as he develops more into a pocket quarterback.

Then quit acting like his career is over before it already starts...

:coffee:

Lancane
12-10-2010, 06:39 AM
Your "know it all" and holier-than-thou attitude toward football is irrational.

Tebow is a rookie. He's not Peyton Manning and he hasn't been in the league for five years. You act like he's not coachable and he can't improve. You think that just because the odds might be mathematically against him that it's not worth it to give him a chance. He's not gonna do any worse than Orton has the past two seasons. He's not going to lose more games than Orton has. Jesus dude. If everyone thought like you no one would get a chance in this league except for those that are mathematically good and whom the odds favor right out of college.

Oh, and :coffee:

I'm irrational because I've brought up distinctively substantial points on a very debatable issue? Excuse me for actually speaking my honest perspective of what's being discussed. I guess, having an opinion should be a matter best regulated by the mods and the site's administrators. Never knew that sharing one's opinion, whether wrong or indifferent was indeed a heinous act on the boards. Better to sensor the outside world here and now, because it's being discussed not only with the local media, but other sport and message board sites as well -


With Josh McDaniels out in Denver, the future of Tim Tebow in Denver has been put in question. - Bill Williamson of ESPN


With Denver firing Josh McDaniels on Monday, the future of the former Florida phenom is extremely uncertain. Denver owner Pat Bowlen should hire the best possible candidate, not the best possible candidate who will want to develop Tebow. - Hays Carlyon of The Florida Times Union


With Josh McDaniels Out, Will Tim Tebow Stay in Denver? - Blackchristiannews.com


Turmoil in Denver hurts Tebow the most - Gregg Doyle of CBS Sports

It's not just this board...and everyone is chiming in on the subject. Most of the more respected analytical minds suggest a wait and see approach with him, after all the team is paying him 33 million dollars between this year and the next four, that's with the 11 million dollar signing bonus, so roughly 6.6 million a year. But don't expect it to die down anytime soon...because the basis of the argument is readily debatable and will be a hot subject. Most NFL Analysts agree that a new regime usually means a new starting quarterback, that's been the trend as of late, only one new regime has traded someone considered a very good talented young quarterback upon arrival. Holmgren got rid of Quinn and Anderson, Carson Palmer could be done in Cincinnati, Smith is almost likely to be gone from San Fran, Henne in Miami, Romo in Dallas...it's not just here, and some of them have been solid starters. The difference is that Tebow is a controversial figure, especially with the mixed analytical reviews of him coming into the draft.

So is there a chance a new regime might not be willing to give Tebow a shot, we've already seen Pat Bowlen allow a Pro-Bowl quarterback to be traded. What if the next head coach and general manager feel that Mallett is a better choice or Orton? I can see both sides of the argument, where as you are being bias, even incomprehensible about the possibility of it because, the majority want to believe that Tebow is the future, when statistically there is a chance, whether you agree or not...but a chance he is not. After all, Matt Leinart was according to those same analysts be the best left-handed quarterback to ever be drafted...whoops! I hope the kid can prove everyone wrong, but I see several different sides of the argument and until he proves otherwise he could be the victim of a new regime and that's just me sharing an honest opinion.

If you don't like it, don't read my posts...it's rather simple.

Oh and...

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/holymusic55/Holidays%20and%20Special%20Occasions/Good%20Morning/Smileywithcoffeecup.jpg

SR
12-10-2010, 07:16 AM
Agree to disagree then. Not worth my time.