McDaniels paid price for Broncos' lack of commitment to change

[arapaho2]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81cba03b/article/mcdaniels-paid-price-for-broncos-lack-of-commitment-to-change?module=HP_cp2


normaly i like the guy but this is a piece of crap



eliminating the free-spending of the past, the move signaled to me that they wanted to try the Patriot Way, which centers on building a total team through the draft, cut spending in free agency and develop coaches and players from within.


cut spending in free agency??? the very first move mcdoush did was bring in a high priced F.A LS when we had a perfectly good one already


building a team through the draft....is that why he threw around picks like they were worthless...a 1st rnd 14th overall reduced to a 7th rnd pick in a year?

marony?

three high picks on a qb that was well known a multiyear project at best?

jarvis green ring a bell there lombardi?

[TXBRONC]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81cba03b/article/mcdaniels-paid-price-for-broncos-lack-of-commitment-to-change?module=HP_cp2


normaly i like the guy but this is a piece of crap

eliminating the free-spending of the past, the move signaled to me that they wanted to try the Patriot Way, which centers on building a total team through the draft, cut spending in free agency and develop coaches and players from within.


cut spending in free agency??? the very first move mcdoush did was bring in a high priced F.A LS when we had a perfectly good one already


building a team through the draft....is that why he threw around picks like they were worthless...a 1st rnd 14th overall reduced to a 7th rnd pick in a year?

marony?

three high picks on a qb that was well known a multiyear project at best?

jarvis green ring a bell there lombardi?

He needs to get a clue McDaniels was let go because of his actions not the actions of anyone else.

[arapaho2]

yep ben mcdanials certainly came from within:rolleyes:

[BroncoStud]

Mike Lombardi is a big Belichek fan and seems to have a biased opinion on this situation. All he keeps talking about is how McDaniels wasn't given enough time, that he's a great coach, and that he is the next Belichek. He seems to forget that McDaniels did a great deal of damage in the little time he was given and the prospect of him screwing up another offseason was scaring the hell out of the PAYING Denver fans.

Lombardi thinks that Bowlen was too quick to listen to the "fans"... What the douchebag doesn't grasp is that the "fans" pay the bills.

So Lombardi can piss off. There's a reason he is talking about football and not serving as a GM somewhere.

[TXBRONC]

Mike Lombardi is a big Belichek fan and seems to have a biased opinion on this situation. All he keeps talking about is how McDaniels wasn't given enough time, that he's a great coach, and that he is the next Belichek. He seems to forget that McDaniels did a great deal of damage in the little time he was given and the prospect of him screwing up another offseason was scaring the hell out of the PAYING Denver fans.

Lombardi thinks that Bowlen was too quick to listen to the "fans"... What the douchebag doesn't grasp is that the "fans" pay the bills.

So Lombardi can piss off. There's a reason he is talking about football and not serving as a GM somewhere.

If McDaniels is such a or great coach in the making then why did his one staff turn on him? I guess Lombardi didn't hear about McDaniels dressing down his entire coaching staff in front of the owner. Or how Josh told Bowlen and rest of the world that he knew nothing about Spygate yet a little more than a year later after similar a incident all of the sudden he can spell out in detail the difference between Spygate and Spygate II.

[Dreadnought]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81cba03b/article/mcdaniels-paid-price-for-broncos-lack-of-commitment-to-change?module=HP_cp2


normaly i like the guy but this is a piece of crap



cut spending in free agency??? the very first move mcdoush did was bring in a high priced F.A LS when we had a perfectly good one already


building a team through the draft....is that why he threw around picks like they were worthless...a 1st rnd 14th overall reduced to a 7th rnd pick in a year?

marony?

three high picks on a qb that was well known a multiyear project at best?

jarvis green ring a bell there lombardi?

I think I detected sniffling in that piece, I really did. Talk about mailing it in. I can name @ 22+ guys and gals on this Board alone could have written a far better analysis, and for less money too.

Fire Mike Lombardi, Hire Claymore

[rationalfan]

i don't expect anyone to agree with me, but this column is an example of why i've always been pro-mcdaniels. i still believe he'll be a very good coach. and i do believe he would have been a very good coach in denver, given the time.

perhaps i have too much patience, but i always thought mcdaniels' tenure would be suffering through the early years that laid the foundation for long-term success. we'll never know.

flame on haters.

[Northman]

i don't expect anyone to agree with me, but this column is an example of why i've always been pro-mcdaniels. i still believe he'll be a very good coach. and i do believe he would have been a very good coach in denver, given the time.

perhaps i have too much patience, but i always thought mcdaniels' tenure would be suffering through the early years that laid the foundation for long-term success. we'll never know.

flame on haters.

Nope, dont agree with you.

Watching what coaches like Spags and Morris have done with much less tells me that McDaniels was not the right guy for this job. Now, he might be good 6-7 years down the road like BB was after starting crappy but thats a BIG if. Thats part of the problem with guys like Lombardi. They think that every person that works under BB is going to be just like him.

[claymore]

Mike Lombardi is a big Belichek fan and seems to have a biased opinion on this situation. All he keeps talking about is how McDaniels wasn't given enough time, that he's a great coach, and that he is the next Belichek. He seems to forget that McDaniels did a great deal of damage in the little time he was given and the prospect of him screwing up another offseason was scaring the hell out of the PAYING Denver fans.

Lombardi thinks that Bowlen was too quick to listen to the "fans"... What the douchebag doesn't grasp is that the "fans" pay the bills.

So Lombardi can piss off. There's a reason he is talking about football and not serving as a GM somewhere.

I have more respect for Bowlen than i ever had before, and I held him in pretty high regard. He loves the Broncos and the fans too.

[Day1BroncoFan]

McDaniels and paying anything at all for this fiasco.

[Dirk]

i don't expect anyone to agree with me, but this column is an example of why i've always been pro-mcdaniels. i still believe he'll be a very good coach. and i do believe he would have been a very good coach in denver, given the time.

perhaps i have too much patience, but i always thought mcdaniels' tenure would be suffering through the early years that laid the foundation for long-term success. we'll never know.

flame on haters.

I have to partly agree with you.

I do believe that McD will be a great coach in this league if someone gives him that chance again. But only if he has a GM making the calls. He doesn't have what it takes to handle the whole enchilada. Maybe in 10 or 15 years but not now. As far as game planning and coaching up players I think he has that and then some. He is just not a good people person and not a good personnel guy.

If Pat would have hired a good GM and let McD handle the coaching, I think it would have all worked out different and we would be saying...damn that kid is bright.

But alas, Pat didn't and McD blew up the team and pissed everyone off to boot. It is a very painful and strong lesson to learn. For both McD and Pat.

[BeefStew25]

Joe Ellis is the problem. We have a CPA hiring football people.

[Bosco]

That's a pretty good piece. Joe Ellis essentially admitted in his interview that they gave Josh too much on his plate and not enough of a support structure to succeed. I'm hoping that's a mistake we don't make with our next coach.

[Grover]

The thing that upsets me about this whole franchise in the past few years, is that it's all a case of Fire ------------> Aim ----------------> Ready.

Too many decisions have been made in a seemingly knee-jerk fashion, and with no real plan in place. Bowlen says he's going to do one thing, and a few days or weeks later he does something radically differently. Two years ago they said they would not give the coach ultimate power, and bring in a good GM. Weeks later it was the same old power structure.

It's his prerogative to change his mind, but it just doesn't inspire any confidence that anyone in power has a plan and knows how to move towards accomplishing it.

Hopefully Elway's influence will be a turning point and we will see the new power structure making decisions that move the team along a path of success. I am not trusting the combination of Bowlen and Ellis knowing what's best any longer, and I hope they do have a commitment to change the power structure and give Elway and a new GM a large part of forming the future of the franchise.

[Bosco]

The thing that upsets me about this whole franchise in the past few years, is that it's all a case of Fire ------------> Aim ----------------> Ready.

Too many decisions have been made in a seemingly knee-jerk fashion, and with no real plan in place. Bowlen says he's going to do one thing, and a few days or weeks later he does something radically differently.

It's his prerogative to change his mind, but it just doesn't inspire any confidence that anyone in power has a plan and knows how to move towards accomplishing it.

Hopefully Elway's influence will be a turning point and we will see the new power structure making decisions that move the team along a path of success. I am not trusting the combination of Bowlen and Ellis knowing what's best any longer, and I hope they do have a commitment to change the power structure and give Elway and a new GM a large part of forming the future of the franchise.

I've been a huge Bowlen defender but this turn of events has me concerned as well. I'm worried that he's simply getting antsy to win another title and that never ends well.

I hope I'm wrong though.

[tomjonesrocks]

If McD's playcalling had shown just the slightest bit of "wow" I might agree he could one day recover and be a quality HC but I really don't see it. Dude showed me nothing but what you don't want in a coach.

Maybe he matures and changes one day but for now I don't see any reason why another franchise should give him another chance to do anything. And then there's the whole spygate II thing....

[claymore]

If McD's playcalling had shown just the slightest bit of "wow" I might agree he could one day recover and be a quality HC but I really don't see it. Dude showed me nothing but what you don't want in a coach.

Maybe he matures and changes one day but for now I don't see any reason why another franchise should give him another chance to do anything. And then there's the whole spygate II thing....

I agree a 100%. I missed the genius part. He was the worst play caller ive ever seen. I didnt think he did anything well.

SO glad he is gone.

[Dzone]

After he dismantled this team and turned us into ano0ther Buffalo, why would any team want to put him in charge? He is a loser as a HC. Not to mention how reviled he was by his teams fans. He will also carry the stain of "cheater"...he might get a hc job in canada, but thats a bout it

[pnbronco]

i don't expect anyone to agree with me, but this column is an example of why i've always been pro-mcdaniels. i still believe he'll be a very good coach. and i do believe he would have been a very good coach in denver, given the time.

perhaps i have too much patience, but i always thought mcdaniels' tenure would be suffering through the early years that laid the foundation for long-term success. we'll never know.

flame on haters.

You're not alone here. I know I have too much patience, but it's the way I'm wired.

It was interesting that Peter King was interviewed during McD first camp. He said that he could see McD being a really good coach, but he wasn't sure that it would be here in Denver. It would not surprise him if the same thing would happen to him as did Belichick. I had that feeling in the pit of my stomach ah dang it then.

So I hope the Broncos find a good GM, put him in place and find someone to Coach our team.

[I Eat Staples]

i don't expect anyone to agree with me, but this column is an example of why i've always been pro-mcdaniels. i still believe he'll be a very good coach. and i do believe he would have been a very good coach in denver, given the time.

perhaps i have too much patience, but i always thought mcdaniels' tenure would be suffering through the early years that laid the foundation for long-term success. we'll never know.

flame on haters.

The fact that he drove this franchise into the ground in less than two seasons just shows that he was doomed to be nothing but an epic fail.

Something that should have been obvious from the start, mind you, and some people are still having trouble grasping it.

[Dzone]

I think I detected sniffling in that piece, I really did. Talk about mailing it in. I can name @ 22+ guys and gals on this Board alone could have written a far better analysis, and for less money too.

Fire Mike Lombardi, Hire Claymore

I agree. That was pathetic. LombARdi blames everyone but Mcdaniels

[TXBRONC]

i don't expect anyone to agree with me, but this column is an example of why i've always been pro-mcdaniels. i still believe he'll be a very good coach. and i do believe he would have been a very good coach in denver, given the time.

perhaps i have too much patience, but i always thought mcdaniels' tenure would be suffering through the early years that laid the foundation for long-term success. we'll never know.

flame on haters.

Unless he can learn to get alone with people the chances of him actually being a good head coach are greatly diminished.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

i don't expect anyone to agree with me, but this column is an example of why i've always been pro-mcdaniels. i still believe he'll be a very good coach. and i do believe he would have been a very good coach in denver, given the time.

perhaps i have too much patience, but i always thought mcdaniels' tenure would be suffering through the early years that laid the foundation for long-term success. we'll never know.

flame on haters.

I also agree with you. Great post :salute:

[NameUsedBefore]

If McD's playcalling had shown just the slightest bit of "wow" I might agree he could one day recover and be a quality HC but I really don't see it. Dude showed me nothing but what you don't want in a coach.

Maybe he matures and changes one day but for now I don't see any reason why another franchise should give him another chance to do anything. And then there's the whole spygate II thing....

Definitely. I never got any inkling that McDaniels knew how to call a game. He never found any balance even when it was handed to him. His last game against Kansas City was just atrocious on so many levels. He never took any real risks. Not to drag out old spirits, but I think Shanahan's bomb to Lelie on 4th and 1 and the going for two with the exact same, but reversed, play against San Diego are some of the most impressive play calls I've seen. They show guts, creativity and an understanding of what the defense is giving.

All McDaniels could do was call shorts and screens all damn day. 3rd and seven? Go with a screen. Ah shit they snuffed it out again. Unbelievable! Then we watch the little bastage go bonkers on the sidelines yelling at the offense for not executing his brilliant playcalls.

[rationalfan]

The fact that he drove this franchise into the ground in less than two seasons just shows that he was doomed to be nothing but an epic fail.

Something that should have been obvious from the start, mind you, and some people are still having trouble grasping it.

though, many would - and have - argued that shanahan's personnel decisions didn't give mcd a foundation he could build upon. one could also argue that shanahan's tendencies to allow his "star" players to get away with more troublesome behavior created a culture that undercut the new coach before he was hired (regardless of whether it would have been mcd or spags or obama).

it's hard to argue with mcdaniels' record. but i find it just as hard to pretend there weren't real problems in denver before he came aboard.

[Northman]

though, many would - and have - argued that shanahan's personnel decisions didn't give mcd a foundation he could build upon. one could also argue that shanahan's tendencies to allow his "star" players to get away with more troublesome behavior created a culture that undercut the new coach before he was hired (regardless of whether it would have been mcd or spags or obama).

it's hard to argue with mcdaniels' record. but i find it just as hard to pretend there weren't real problems in denver before he came aboard.

There were problems on Denver, just not the ones that McD decided to address.

[scott.475]

Kiszla and Lombardi have lost their minds. I really can't believe how pathetic Lombardi sounded about all this on NFLN. Heaven forbid a doctor should decide to staunch the bleeding from a femoral wound instead of completing a hair transplant, geez! :rolleyes:

[TXBRONC]

it's hard to argue with mcdaniels' record. but i find it just as hard to pretend there weren't real problems in denver before he came aboard.

That's true, and that's part of the reason why Shanahan was fired and McDaniels was hired.

[Dreadnought]

Definitely. I never got any inkling that McDaniels knew how to call a game. He never found any balance even when it was handed to him. His last game against Kansas City was just atrocious on so many levels. He never took any real risks. Not to drag out old spirits, but I think Shanahan's bomb to Lelie on 4th and 1 and the going for two with the exact same, but reversed, play against San Diego are some of the most impressive play calls I've seen. They show guts, creativity and an understanding of what the defense is giving.

All McDaniels could do was call shorts and screens all damn day. 3rd and seven? Go with a screen. Ah shit they snuffed it out again. Unbelievable! Then we watch the little bastage go bonkers on the sidelines yelling at the offense for not executing his brilliant playcalls.

Agreed. Shanahan in his prime was the single best play caller I've ever seen. The Bronco offense would line up, and you frequently had no idea what had been called, run, pass, short, long, inside, outside. He very often surprised the crap out of me. The McD offense by contrast was usually as predictable as dawn. You could often predict the play call just from formation and personnel. If I could do it, defenses could too, and it showed. I saw none of that alleged genius he supposedly was bringing

[Dreadnought]

There were problems on Denver, just not the ones that McD decided to address.

Agreed. Not firing Bob Slowick within 5 minutes after the 2008 SD game was a firing offense IMO. I hated it, but I totally got why Bowlen pulled the plug.

[Day1BroncoFan]

There were problems in Denver before McD came and now there are oh so many more.

He did nothing for this team and I totally agree with the predictable play calling Dread.

[rationalfan]

Agreed. Shanahan in his prime was the single best play caller I've ever seen. The Bronco offense would line up, and you frequently had no idea what had been called, run, pass, short, long, inside, outside.

totally agree. but most of the memories of his great play calling coincide with great players on the roster (even back to the 49ers days). the more time goes on, it's easier for me to believe shanahan is like most coaches: his schemes look great with great players; give him average players and his schemes look average.

[bcbronc]

i don't expect anyone to agree with me, but this column is an example of why i've always been pro-mcdaniels. i still believe he'll be a very good coach. and i do believe he would have been a very good coach in denver, given the time.

perhaps i have too much patience, but i always thought mcdaniels' tenure would be suffering through the early years that laid the foundation for long-term success. we'll never know.

flame on haters.

I agree with you.

I can't believe now how many people are pining for the glory days of 8-8, season after season. like the article said, "repair, don't rebuild." before you build a new deck, you have to tear down the old one.

I'm one of the few that actually likes the direction this team (was) going on the field. sure we're losing games this year, but we weren't actually that far away.

now that Moreno is healthy and our oline has had a couple of games with the same starters, we've started to see the inside power running game develop. get our five starters some time to develop chemistry and we should have a top notch oline.

This will only help our red zone offense. Add a Lendale White-type back to a Moreno who finally seems to have "got" it, and our red zone should get even better. and DT, Decker and Tebow should all bring even more help to our O in red zone and short yardage next season.

Defense, now that we'll probably be going on ,what, our 7th d-coordinator in seven seasons? awesome.

There are some good signs, assuming we stay 3-4, which of course who knows now. our LB depth has improved in a hurry. Mays, Haggan and Hunter have all had pretty good seasons, as has DJ. Add in a double-digit sack Dumervil and all four of them get even better. Ayers was looking good before he got hurt, hasn't shown much since he got back, but he's also coming off a long term injury, so we'll see. Either way, decent crew in need of Doom coming back and being effective.

Secondary, Cox and Thompson have had good rookie campaigns. Looked like rookies at times, for sure, but still plenty to be optimistic about. Need to upgrade on Dawkins on the field. Just doesn't have it anymore. Injuries to Goodman, Dawkins, Hill and McBath have affected the season, but McDaniel's plan of solid vets to allow youth to develop looks to on target, more or less.

Dline is the issue. As it has been in Denver for way too long. I'll be really happy if our new regime passes on dline help in the first to get himself a new QB. JWill hasn't really panned out imo. Good idea though--but would have been a better idea if there was a rookie on the squad learning the ropes.

as is, depth guys like Bannan and Vickerson have been okay, but we have no playmaker in our front 3. but the simple reality is, you can't address all issues in one off-season. or even two. I feel McDaniels should have got one more season to finish rebuilding the team. Big holes on Dline and S, but there's quality youth pretty much everywhere else, all getting valuable experience this season due in part to injuries. if we capitalize on what should be good draft position this year, I felt we should be contending for the playoffs next season.

I guess for me the biggest thing was what ultimately was the reason Pat pulled the trigger when he did. if it was Spygate, okay fine. If it was because McDaniel's is a jerk, I don't really like that. I could care less if no one on the planet likes our coach if he wins games. obviously he hasn't been doing that...yet.

But if it was because we lost a few games in a rebuilding year, then I'm really worried about where this franchise is going. impatient owners that expect coaches to turn things around over night are never good for fans. in a way it's like the Alphonso Smith debacle--if you're going to go off the board like Pat/McD did, then at least trust your system of evaluating and don't panic at the first hiccup.

I guess to summarize, what I'm really saying right now is "Go Canucks Go".

[Elevation inc]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81cba03b/article/mcdaniels-paid-price-for-broncos-lack-of-commitment-to-change?module=HP_cp2


normaly i like the guy but this is a piece of crap



cut spending in free agency??? the very first move mcdoush did was bring in a high priced F.A LS when we had a perfectly good one already


building a team through the draft....is that why he threw around picks like they were worthless...a 1st rnd 14th overall reduced to a 7th rnd pick in a year?

marony?

three high picks on a qb that was well known a multiyear project at best?

jarvis green ring a bell there lombardi?


um that is the patriot Belicheck way...he never said MCD did that, he just said when we wanted the patriot way, that was what the patriot way actually was, not the craziness josh pulled......

the patriot way is great for team building if you actually know what your doing...i think New england for example has 5 picks in rds 1-2 this year and a total of like ten, this is all after they have a 9-2 record and will make the playoffs as well....the patriots know how to build a team.....they just dont know what a good secondary is:lol:, but clearly thats a minute issue for them....

[BroncoStud]

How can anyone defend a cheater? Regardless of his personnel moves, his lack of balance on offense, or the pitiful play of the defense the year following his firing of Mike Nolan...

Once he was busted cheating, he was done, and he should have been done. Spygate 2 made this franchise look bad, made Bowlen look bad, made us look bad.

[Dreadnought]

totally agree. but most of the memories of his great play calling coincide with great players on the roster (even back to the 49ers days). the more time goes on, it's easier for me to believe shanahan is like most coaches: his schemes look great with great players; give him average players and his schemes look average.

I disagree. Shanny Offenses looked great with Elway and TD...but also frequently with tandems like Griese and Mike Anderson, and Plummer and Reuben Droughns, and Cutler and Selvin Young. I think there are a good number of guys listed there who are pretty average* in and of themselves


* Of course, exactly which of those guys were "average" is fodder for plenty of other arguments :D

[Elevation inc]

I disagree. Shanny Offenses looked great with Elway and TD...but also frequently with tandems like Griese and Mike Anderson, and Plummer and Reuben Droughns, and Cutler and Selvin Young. I think there are a good number of guys listed there who are pretty average* in and of themselves


* Of course, exactly which of those guys were "average" is fodder for plenty of other arguments :D

never did selvin young look good here in denver..never....:lol:

[Tned]

I disagree. Shanny Offenses looked great with Elway and TD...but also frequently with tandems like Griese and Mike Anderson, and Plummer and Reuben Droughns, and Cutler and Selvin Young. I think there are a good number of guys listed there who are pretty average* in and of themselves


* Of course, exactly which of those guys were "average" is fodder for plenty of other arguments :D

I don't think Kubiak called quite as good a game as Shanahan, although I think it got better towards the end of Kubes time with Denver (might have been Jake's athleticism helping).

The offense didn't really tank until they went away from the Shanahan/Kubiak offense when Heimerdinger changed things in '06.

[Dreadnought]

never did selvin young look good here in denver..never....:lol:

2007. 5.2 YPC, over 700 yards. That's just freakin' good, anyways you slice it. Now, that leads us back to, was it that Selvin was an excellent back, or was a he stiff benefitting from a creative offense with excellent play calling?

[TXBRONC]

I disagree. Shanny Offenses looked great with Elway and TD...but also frequently with tandems like Griese and Mike Anderson, and Plummer and Reuben Droughns, and Cutler and Selvin Young. I think there are a good number of guys listed there who are pretty average* in and of themselves


* Of course, exactly which of those guys were "average" is fodder for plenty of other arguments :D

Even with Elway and TD how long did we remain in the top ten in offense? Pretty much the entire time Shanahan was the coach.

[Dreadnought]

Even with Elway and TD how long did we remain in the top ten in offense? Pretty much the entire time Shanahan was the coach.

Yards Points

2008 2 16 Cutler and Hillis/Young/T.Bell/Pittman, etc.
2007 11 21 Cutler and Young
2006 21 17 Plummer and T.Bell/M.Bell
2005 5 7 Plummer and Anderson/T. Bell
2004 5 9 Plummer and Droughns
2003 7 10 Plummer and Portis
2002 3 7 Griese and Portis
2001 22 10 Griese and TD/Anderson
2000 2 2 Griese and Anderson
1999 14 18 Griese and Gary
1998 3 2 Elway and TD
1997 1 1 Elway and TD
1996 1 4 Elway and TD
1995 3 9 Elway and TD

A couple of bad years really stand out. 1999 and 2001 were marred by early injuries to key skill position guys (1999 TD and Sharpe, plus Elways retirement; 2001 Eddie Mac and TD) 2006 saw Heimerdinger's terrible offense and Plummers's collapse in it.

[tomjonesrocks]

Shanahan's bomb to Lelie on 4th and 1 and the going for two with the exact same, but reversed, play against San Diego are some of the most impressive play calls I've seen. They show guts, creativity and an understanding of what the defense is giving.

Yep--Shanahan plenty of flashes of genius. Not just in taking advantages of mismatches in playcalling, but things like the timeout he invented in the middle of the kicker's windup which won the team one game. We should be able to spot genius as Denver fans--I didn't see any from McD.

[tomjonesrocks]

2007. 5.2 YPC, over 700 yards. That's just freakin' good, anyways you slice it. Now, that leads us back to, was it that Selvin was an excellent back, or was a he stiff benefitting from a creative offense with excellent play calling?

As good as he looked for a time it was kind of surprising how fast he flamed out. He certainly thought he was the next TD--2,000 yard proclamations, etc. He did look impressive for a brief stretch.

[rationalfan]

I disagree. Shanny Offenses looked great with Elway and TD...but also frequently with tandems like Griese and Mike Anderson, and Plummer and Reuben Droughns, and Cutler and Selvin Young. I think there are a good number of guys listed there who are pretty average* in and of themselves


* Of course, exactly which of those guys were "average" is fodder for plenty of other arguments :D

don't forget about the guys in the trenches. those post-elway teams still had great o-lines. shanahan's dominance/brilliance faded as his o-line got older.

[TXBRONC]

don't forget about the guys in the trenches. those post-elway teams still had great o-lines. shanahan's dominance/brilliance faded as his o-line got older.

The offense was starting to come back by the end of his tenure because he had refurbished the offensive with young talent. Unfortunately he didn't make enough good moves on the other side of the ball.

[Dreadnought]

don't forget about the guys in the trenches. those post-elway teams still had great o-lines. shanahan's dominance/brilliance faded as his o-line got older.

2005 Line

RT George Foster
RG Cooper Carlisle
C Tom Nalen
LG Ben Hamilton
LT Matt Lepsis

1998 Line

RT Harry Swayne
RG Dan Neil
C Tom Nalen
LG Mark Schlereth
LT Tony Jones

Matt Lepsis was a reserve in '98. In any event, they retooled that O Line pretty well by '05, and had nearly turned the entire thing over again by '08. All in all they held up pretty well throughout IMO

[rcsodak]

Mike Lombardi is a big Belichek fan and seems to have a biased opinion on this situation. All he keeps talking about is how McDaniels wasn't given enough time, that he's a great coach, and that he is the next Belichek. He seems to forget that McDaniels did a great deal of damage in the little time he was given and the prospect of him screwing up another offseason was scaring the hell out of the PAYING Denver fans.

Lombardi thinks that Bowlen was too quick to listen to the "fans"... What the douchebag doesn't grasp is that the "fans" pay the bills.

So Lombardi can piss off. There's a reason he is talking about football and not serving as a GM somewhere.
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[rcsodak]

Mike Lombardi is a big Belichek fan and seems to have a biased opinion on this situation. All he keeps talking about is how McDaniels wasn't given enough time, that he's a great coach, and that he is the next Belichek. He seems to forget that McDaniels did a great deal of damage in the little time he was given and the prospect of him screwing up another offseason was scaring the hell out of the PAYING Denver fans.

Lombardi thinks that Bowlen was too quick to listen to the "fans"... What the douchebag doesn't grasp is that the "fans" pay the bills.

So Lombardi can piss off. There's a reason he is talking about football and not serving as a GM somewhere.
sure havent seen any teams win the SB when coached by the fans. This could very well come back and bite the organization in the ass, down the road.
why not just bring in a football dude to take over that aspect? Now, we get to watch new coaches, new schemes, etc.....ALLL OVER AGAIN!. yay. :rolleyes:
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[rcsodak]

i don't expect anyone to agree with me, but this column is an example of why i've always been pro-mcdaniels. i still believe he'll be a very good coach. and i do believe he would have been a very good coach in denver, given the time.

perhaps i have too much patience, but i always thought mcdaniels' tenure would be suffering through the early years that laid the foundation for long-term success. we'll never know.

flame on haters.
you n me, rational. Last of a dying breed.
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[rcsodak]

After he dismantled this team and turned us into ano0ther Buffalo, why would any team want to put him in charge? He is a loser as a HC. Not to mention how reviled he was by his teams fans. He will also carry the stain of "cheater"...he might get a hc job in canada, but thats a bout it
reviled? Only because:
1. Smacked lips
2. Came from NE
3. Wasnt shanny
thats before he coached a game
4. Got rid of fan favs
5. Brought in ex-pats
6. Had a hotter wife than his haters
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[HORSEPOWER 56]

reviled? Only because:
1. Smacked lips
2. Came from NE
3. Wasnt shanny
thats before he coached a game
4. Got rid of fan favs
5. Brought in ex-pats
6. Had a hotter wife than his haters
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You forgot the easy ones:
6. Chased the DC that took us from 29th to top 10 out of town because he thought he knew defense better
7. Was 5-17 in our last 22 games
8. Was directly involved in a cheating scandal which tarnished the reputation of an owner who is on the COMPETITION COMMITTEE
9. Couldn't play call himself out of a paper bag and his lack of commitment to the run was costing us games

How easy it is to gloss over the faults of this guy when you really like him and how easy it is to find them when you really like the Broncos.

[TXBRONC]

You forgot the easy ones:
6. Chased the DC that took us from 29th to top 10 out of town because he thought he knew defense better
7. Was 5-17 in our last 22 games
8. Was directly involved in a cheating scandal which tarnished the reputation of an owner who is on the COMPETITION COMMITTEE
9. Couldn't play call himself out of a paper bag and his lack of commitment to the run was costing us games

How easy it is to gloss over the faults of this guy when you really like him and how easy it is to find them when you really like the Broncos.

This actually related to number 9. The same coach when asked about the original spygate said he didn't know anything but then it gets reported that in staff meeting he was detailing the differences between Spygate and Spygate II.

[Dzone]

This actually related to number 9. The same coach when asked about the original spygate said he didn't know anything but then it gets reported that in staff meeting he was detailing the differences between Spygate and Spygate II.
Yes, in doing so threw his old HC under the bus to try to make himself look better

[Dzone]

[

1998 Line

RT Harry Swayne
RG Dan Neil
C Tom Nalen
LG Mark Schlereth
LT Tony Jones


Pretty amazing. They lose a HOF left tackle to retirement and still win another super bowl

[Cugel]

The fact that he drove this franchise into the ground in less than two seasons just shows that he was doomed to be nothing but an epic fail.

Something that should have been obvious from the start, mind you, and some people are still having trouble grasping it.

It's called "cognitive dissonance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance)" the tension that is created by a disconnect between facts and strongly held beliefs. In the face of mounting evidence that the strongly held beliefs were WRONG FROM THE START, the believers become MORE STRONGLY attached to their beliefs, not less, going so far as to make up evidence and deny the obvious.

Some fans latched onto the McDaniels bandwagon early on. Then came the Cutler fiasco, followed by draft fiasco, the season fiasco, the Sheffler, Marshall, Torain and Hillis Fiascoes, an endless series of fiascoes in fact.

As these failures mounted the critics cried "see!" The believers responded by holding more and more firmly to their denial of reality.

There are STILL some people on these boards who really think it was wrong to fire McDaniels, even though it was obvious to the entire world (including finally Bowlen) that it wasn't going to work out.

For most, there was a breaking point somewhere along the way. But for the most deeply deluded, there's still a wall of denial they will never breach. :coffee:

[Northman]

You forgot the easy ones:
6. Chased the DC that took us from 29th to top 10 out of town because he thought he knew defense better
7. Was 5-17 in our last 22 games
8. Was directly involved in a cheating scandal which tarnished the reputation of an owner who is on the COMPETITION COMMITTEE
9. Couldn't play call himself out of a paper bag and his lack of commitment to the run was costing us games

How easy it is to gloss over the faults of this guy when you really like him and how easy it is to find them when you really like the Broncos.


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[arapaho2]

you n me, rational. Last of a dying breed.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums


ahhh thee last two elusive doo doo birds:rolleyes:

[Ravage!!!]

It's called "cognitive dissonance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance)" the tension that is created by a disconnect between facts and strongly held beliefs. In the face of mounting evidence that the strongly held beliefs were WRONG FROM THE START, the believers become MORE STRONGLY attached to their beliefs, not less, going so far as to make up evidence and deny the obvious.

Some fans latched onto the McDaniels bandwagon early on. Then came the Cutler fiasco, followed by draft fiasco, the season fiasco, the Sheffler, Marshall, Torain and Hillis Fiascoes, an endless series of fiascoes in fact.

As these failures mounted the critics cried "see!" The believers responded by holding more and more firmly to their denial of reality.

There are STILL some people on these boards who really think it was wrong to fire McDaniels, even though it was obvious to the entire world (including finally Bowlen) that it wasn't going to work out.

For most, there was a breaking point somewhere along the way. But for the most deeply deluded, there's still a wall of denial they will never breach. :coffee:

QFT... nice post. I think the only ones defending McD at this point, are the ones that tried so hard to defend his horrible actions time and time and time again as they were going on.

They feel attached purely because they've spent so much time cradling and protecting.

[bcbronc]

QFT... nice post. I think the only ones defending McD at this point, are the ones that tried so hard to defend his horrible actions time and time and time again as they were going on.

They feel attached purely because they've spent so much time cradling and protecting.

or, possibly, just the ones that didn't get butt hurt by McDaniel's personal decisions. I think a lot of posters took things like Cutler and Marshall etc a bit too personally, as if McDaniels was personally insulting YOU.

what-evs though...I'm not looking to "defend" McDaniels. I just want what's best for the orange and blue (not what's best for Cutler, or Marshall, or Shanny, or McDaniels, or even Pat Bowlen). But of course, As the World Turns in Bronco Nation means many posters make their judgement on how the coach treated their favourite player etc.

Nothing wrong with that...we're all fanatics after all...but don't try to pretend you guys are using dispassionate logic to form your stance on McDaniels...cuz imo for many of the haters (certainly not all, but the more vocal ones) McDaniels was done from the beginning (for being a Patriot) or as soon as Cutler got dealt.

Hopefully Pat Bowlen can bring someone in that can get us back to mediocracy! and if the next guy takes more than a year and 3/4s to do it, kick his ass out the door. 8-8 forever!

[Cugel]

reviled? Only because:
1. Smacked lips
2. Came from NE
3. Wasnt shanny
thats before he coached a game
4. Got rid of fan favs
5. Brought in ex-pats
6. Had a hotter wife than his haters
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1. loser had worst record in over 40 years -- blowout losses at home to crappy division foes.
2. Cheater-gate II
3. Wasn't any good at drafting.
4. Got rid of superior players and brought in stiffs to replace them.
5. Brought in ex-pat cast-offs who couldn't do the job.
6. Got rid of Hillis because he hit on his wife only to watch him run to the Pro-bowl while his offense is dead-last at running the ball.

There I've fixed it for you. :coffee:

[Cugel]

don't try to pretend you guys are using dispassionate logic to form your stance on McDaniels...cuz imo for many of the haters (certainly not all, but the more vocal ones) McDaniels was done from the beginning (for being a Patriot) or as soon as Cutler got dealt.

Speaking as one who learned to loath McDaniels from the Cutler fiasco, I WAS being "dispassionate."

In that scandal McDaniels:

1. Told blatantly obvious lies repeatedly and expected the fans to swallow them (which all too many did).
2. Demonstrated serious immaturity and troubling personality defects.
3. Forced the trade of a franchise QB he ultimately couldn't replace.
4. Then proceeded to utterly squander all the draft picks the homers claimed made the deal a good one.

Today Denver lacks a franchise QB. Few fans would argue Orton is going to lead this team to a SB (ever) and Tebow is a pure cipher. Not many NFL GMs think he's ever going to be an elite NFL QB but we can't tell yet. SO far he's McDaniels' project who's not ready to start -- which makes him highly likely to be traded by the new coach rather than to stick around for any length of time (he's earning too much money to stay unless he's going to become the starter and the new coach may not WANT to link his fate to Tebow's).

So don't pretend your hating of Cutler is "dispassionate." As he's proving this season he's a long-term good QB who is leading his team to the playoffs. Orton meanwhile couldn't find the end-zone with a seeing-eye-dog. :coffee:

[bcbronc]

Speaking as one who learned to loath McDaniels from the Cutler fiasco, I WAS being "dispassionate."

In that scandal McDaniels:

1. Told blatantly obvious lies repeatedly and expected the fans to swallow them (which all too many did).
2. Demonstrated serious immaturity and troubling personality defects.
3. Forced the trade of a franchise QB he ultimately couldn't replace.
4. Then proceeded to utterly squander all the draft picks the homers claimed made the deal a good one.

Today Denver lacks a franchise QB. Few fans would argue Orton is going to lead this team to a SB (ever) and Tebow is a pure cipher. Not many NFL GMs think he's ever going to be an elite NFL QB but we can't tell yet. SO far he's McDaniels' project who's not ready to start -- which makes him highly likely to be traded by the new coach rather than to stick around for any length of time (he's earning too much money to stay unless he's going to become the starter and the new coach may not WANT to link his fate to Tebow's).

So don't pretend your hating of Cutler is "dispassionate." As he's proving this season he's a long-term good QB who is leading his team to the playoffs. Orton meanwhile couldn't find the end-zone with a seeing-eye-dog. :coffee:

lol, my hate for Cutler? I think Cutler is an extraordinarily talented young man with some maturity issues/toolbox issues that aren't uncommon in young players. the pure football fan in me hopes he puts it together because he does have oodles of talent (the Broncos fan, not so much). I wasn't impressed with the way Cutler handled not being coddled, but again, that's a maturity issue that can be (and usually is) over come.

but thanks for proving my point.

:coffee:

[GEM]

i don't expect anyone to agree with me, but this column is an example of why i've always been pro-mcdaniels. i still believe he'll be a very good coach. and i do believe he would have been a very good coach in denver, given the time.

perhaps i have too much patience, but i always thought mcdaniels' tenure would be suffering through the early years that laid the foundation for long-term success. we'll never know.

flame on haters.

I'm not doubting that at some point McD will be a good coach. It just wasn't here and not under Denver's circumstances. There was just too much that went wrong in too short of time to give him a long term chance, one that in the long run could have gotten much much worse.

[Ravage!!!]

or, possibly, just the ones that didn't get butt hurt by McDaniel's personal decisions. I think a lot of posters took things like Cutler and Marshall etc a bit too personally, as if McDaniels was personally insulting YOU.

what-evs though...I'm not looking to "defend" McDaniels. I just want what's best for the orange and blue (not what's best for Cutler, or Marshall, or Shanny, or McDaniels, or even Pat Bowlen). But of course, As the World Turns in Bronco Nation means many posters make their judgement on how the coach treated their favourite player etc.

Nothing wrong with that...we're all fanatics after all...but don't try to pretend you guys are using dispassionate logic to form your stance on McDaniels...cuz imo for many of the haters (certainly not all, but the more vocal ones) McDaniels was done from the beginning (for being a Patriot) or as soon as Cutler got dealt.

Hopefully Pat Bowlen can bring someone in that can get us back to mediocracy! and if the next guy takes more than a year and 3/4s to do it, kick his ass out the door. 8-8 forever!

People got upset that those players were dealt away because it hurt the BRONOS, not the player's feelings.

I've heard posters on here TRY and tell me that McD intentionally traded these players to their favorite team, because he's such a 'good' guy. :lol:

Trading away Cutler, Marshall, Hillis, Scheffler, and then using picks to get allll the players to replace these that were traded away HURT this team. That has nothing to do with how McD "treated" any said player. HUGE difference. HUGE.

[Ravage!!!]

lol, my hate for Cutler? I think Cutler is an extraordinarily talented young man with some maturity issues/toolbox issues that aren't uncommon in young players. the pure football fan in me hopes he puts it together because he does have oodles of talent (the Broncos fan, not so much). I wasn't impressed with the way Cutler handled not being coddled, but again, that's a maturity issue that can be (and usually is) over come.

but thanks for proving my point.

:coffee:

See. I don't get how it was Cutler wanting to be "coddled" as opposed to just wanting to feel wanted. Thats another GIANT difference. EVERY employee in the world wants to feel wanted. I don't care if you are making 8 buck an hour or 4 million a year.

McDaniels did NOTHING to make anyone feel wanted, and it started with Cutler. Cutler was just the FIRST to have that thrown upon him. Trying to trade him behind his back, and then lie about it to everyone to make him look bad. Then they meet, and you know damn well what happened at that meeting, the same thing the coaches that have worked for McD know..... he's an ass that simply REFUSED to simply take a step (or say a word) that could be perceived as him backing down. McD was Wayyy too stubborn and feels he knows more than EVERYONE.

I think McD has more immaturity problems than Cutler does. That was the biggest problems and reasons for his colossal failure.

[rationalfan]

you n me, rational. Last of a dying breed.
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south dakota minds think alike, apparently.

[rationalfan]

Speaking as one who learned to loath McDaniels from the Cutler fiasco, I WAS being "dispassionate."

In that scandal McDaniels:

1. Told blatantly obvious lies repeatedly and expected the fans to swallow them (which all too many did).
2. Demonstrated serious immaturity and troubling personality defects.
3. Forced the trade of a franchise QB he ultimately couldn't replace.
4. Then proceeded to utterly squander all the draft picks the homers claimed made the deal a good one.



responses:
1. every coach lies, why don't fans realize this? coaches don't care about fans. at all.
2. true, they're growing pains. i could live with them , and the reality the team was bad.
3. cutler was burning bridges before mcd arrived. my opinion: he wouldn't have been a lifetime bronco regardless of the coaches.
4. sounds like a typical broncos coach - ha.

also, here's a list of reasons why no coach could have turned this season into a winning campaign:
1. o-line ravaged with injuries during preseason, first half of season.
2. top running backs injured during entire preseason, early regular season.
3. team's most penetrating pass rusher lost for entire season.
4. team member commits suicide in preseason - believe me, the pall cast from that act hung over the team for months.
5. team's second most penetrating pass rusher injured in preseason and season.
6. fans, and apparently owner, failed to realize that an offense full of rookies and a defense with several starters injured wouldn't compete for division title.

as this whole mcd situation is digested, it feels like most fans and the organization didn't realize the reality of the team. they're bad, beaten up and young. it's a losing combination.

surely, mcd made some bad personnel decisions, but every team dose. yet, he was crucified for it. almost every player he jettisoned had an attitude problem. yet, ironically, all those fans who scream for "team players" on the roster conveniently forget that maxim when it applies to player they adore.

again, this doesn't mean anything because it's all over, but mcd was a scapegoat for fans who failed to believe the truth of their favored franchise. feel free to disagree, of course.

[Northman]

coaches don't care about fans. at all.


Pnbronco will be devastated.

[Ravage!!!]

They were bad BECAUSE of McDaniels moves/trades/choices. We were bad, defensively, bfore McD got here. Not otherwise. McD just made us bad all the way around.

[Ravage!!!]

surely, mcd made some bad personnel decisions, but every team dose. yet, he was crucified for it. almost every player he jettisoned had an attitude problem. yet, ironically, all those fans who scream for "team players" on the roster conveniently forget that maxim when it applies to player they adore.



Funny that we just had alllllll those bad attitudes, yet McD and his 'great' attitude wasn't a problem at all. McD was the one with the bad attitude. Ask the coaches that work with him. The "irony" here is after all the proof, people still think it was ALlll the "other" people with the attitude problems, and McD was just doing his part to "fix" it.

[Dzone]

Heres a good article about Mcdaniels
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/12/09/sports/football/AP-FBN-On-Football-Belichick-Disciples.html?_r=1&WT.mc_id=SP-PS-E-OB-PS-TXT-TH-ROS-1010-NA&WT.mc_ev=click

[rationalfan]

Funny that we just had alllllll those bad attitudes, yet McD and his 'great' attitude wasn't a problem at all. McD was the one with the bad attitude. Ask the coaches that work with him. The "irony" here is after all the proof, people still think it was ALlll the "other" people with the attitude problems, and McD was just doing his part to "fix" it.

perhaps. i've never spoken or worked with mcd. he might have had a bad attitude. i'd believe it. i just don't know. if you do, please share your sources/stories.

on that note, i imagine almost every coach has an "attitude" problem in that he assumes his theories are correct and he wants the people working for him to do his bidding. i want that personality in a coach. he has to be a leader, not a person who submits to the will of the people he's instructing.

[rationalfan]

Heres a good article about Mcdaniels
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/12/09/sports/football/AP-FBN-On-Football-Belichick-Disciples.html?_r=1&WT.mc_id=SP-PS-E-OB-PS-TXT-TH-ROS-1010-NA&WT.mc_ev=click

good article. thanks for the share. but, it's also an interesting Rorschach test; you see it as an article about how terrible mcd is/was, i see it as an article about trying to pick off the bellichick tree.

[Ravage!!!]

perhaps. i've never spoken or worked with mcd. he might have had a bad attitude. i'd believe it. i just don't know. if you do, please share your sources/stories.

on that note, i imagine almost every coach has an "attitude" problem in that he assumes his theories are correct and he wants the people working for him to do his bidding. i want that personality in a coach. he has to be a leader, not a person who submits to the will of the people he's instructing.

I'm referring to the coach that came forward and talked about how McD pulled them in front of the owner to berate them and call them down. The coach (whom remained anon for obvious reasons) made it VERY clear that McD didn't know how to delegate, didn't know how to motivate, and blamed everything on everyone else.

I also am in agreement with you on what makes a good coach. There is a difference between confidence and arrogance, and there is a difference between leading and pushing. I believe McD doesn't know how to lead, but only knows how to push. His confidence is overboard to the point of arrogance.

There is a difference between submitting to the "will" of ones you are instructing, and purely instructing them while still offering respect.

[Dzone]

One player spoke anonymously said that Mcdaniels was always screaming...not saying it is true, but it was said...Mcdaniels sucked as a head couch...
Anyone who thinks Kubiak is the answer here must be smokin crack...Kubiak has been a disaster in houston

[rationalfan]

They were bad BECAUSE of McDaniels moves/trades/choices. We were bad, defensively, bfore McD got here. Not otherwise. McD just made us bad all the way around.

this team hasn't been good for a long time. it's been declining for years. we were just too hopeful to realize it.

of course, it's easy to look back with clarity, but i think one of the biggest problems with the broncos is that neither shanahan or mcd could replenish the exodus of team leaders. the serious decline of the broncos started when al wilson, john lynch, tom nalen and rod smith left. sure, they were talented. but more importantly those guys kept the team together, diffused bad situations and helped move it forward. both coaches became too enamored with talent, even at the expense of poor attitude.

you might argue dawkins has been a good leader, but i'm not too sure of that. he hasn't been here long enough to instill a culture of command.

[Cugel]

See. I don't get how it was Cutler wanting to be "coddled" as opposed to just wanting to feel wanted. Thats another GIANT difference. EVERY employee in the world wants to feel wanted. I don't care if you are making 8 buck an hour or 4 million a year.

McDaniels did NOTHING to make anyone feel wanted, and it started with Cutler. Cutler was just the FIRST to have that thrown upon him. Trying to trade him behind his back, and then lie about it to everyone to make him look bad. Then they meet, and you know damn well what happened at that meeting, the same thing the coaches that have worked for McD know..... he's an ass that simply REFUSED to simply take a step (or say a word) that could be perceived as him backing down. McD was Wayyy too stubborn and feels he knows more than EVERYONE.

I think McD has more immaturity problems than Cutler does. That was the biggest problems and reasons for his colossal failure.

Once again you hit the nail on the head.

Cutler had just gone to the Pro-Bowl. There were at least 20 teams in the NFL that would LOVE him to come be their franchise QB and would offer him a BIG guaranteed contract to do it, if he were a FA.

In addition, there were about 10 teams that were willing to offer draft picks for Cutler and 2 or 3 that actually were EAGER to enter into a bidding war, trying to top the other team because they were convinced that experienced QBs with Cutler's proven ability just are NEVER traded. It just doesn't happen in the NFL.

Cutler was probably the most desirable QB traded in the last 20 years. I can't think of anything remotely similar where a young third year QB with a TON of talent who'd just gone to his first Pro-bowl is traded like that.

Here was a unique opportunity and they were willing to offer multiple high-round draft picks to prove it. (Jets and Redskins were two such teams).

McDaniels actually got the Jets MAD at him because he wouldn't even return their calls (he wanted Orton and was willing to take MUCH WORSE draft picks from the Bears).

That was the reality.

A QB who just went to the Pro-bowl in only his 3rd season is NOT a reserve LB desperate to make the team and forced to accept a backup role to "prove himself" if that's what it takes.

There's NO reason why Cutler should sit there waiting for McDaniels to find some way to trade him (probably in a few months).

IN TRUTH, Cutler would have been GONE no matter WHAT he said or did. McDaniels didn't want him, and proved it. He wanted a "game manager" QB who would fit into his "scheme."

Well, we can now see with absolute clarity what that "scheme" was worth. :coffee:

[rationalfan]

I'm referring to the coach that came forward and talked about how McD pulled them in front of the owner to berate them and call them down. The coach (whom remained anon for obvious reasons) made it VERY clear that McD didn't know how to delegate, didn't know how to motivate, and blamed everything on everyone else.

I also am in agreement with you on what makes a good coach. There is a difference between confidence and arrogance, and there is a difference between leading and pushing. I believe McD doesn't know how to lead, but only knows how to push. His confidence is overboard to the point of arrogance.

There is a difference between submitting to the "will" of ones you are instructing, and purely instructing them while still offering respect.

could be true, but i'm always wary of anonymous sources - especially from sports "writers" on the radio or tv.

regardless, i agree mcd needs to improve as a leader. his team didn't respond well to adverse situations. and, frankly, they played like they were afraid of being yelled at; at least, that's how i explain the constant run of penalties this season. though, i find it hard to believe tom coughlin isn't yelling at everyone in the building all the time. the difference between him and mcd; a good stable of defensive linemen.

[rationalfan]

Once again you hit the nail on the head.

Cutler had just gone to the Pro-Bowl. There were at least 20 teams in the NFL that would LOVE him to come be their franchise QB and would offer him a BIG guaranteed contract to do it, if he were a FA.

In addition, there were about 10 teams that were willing to offer draft picks for Cutler and 2 or 3 that actually were EAGER to enter into a bidding war, trying to top the other team because they were convinced that experienced QBs with Cutler's proven ability just are NEVER traded. It just doesn't happen in the NFL.

Here was a unique opportunity and they were willing to offer multiple high-round draft picks to prove it. (Jets and Redskins were two such teams).

McDaniels actually got the Jets MAD at him because he wouldn't even return their calls (he wanted Orton and was willing to take MUCH WORSE draft picks from the Bears).

That was the reality.

A QB who just went to the Pro-bowl in only his 3rd season is NOT a reserve LB desperate to make the team and forced to accept a backup role to "prove himself" if that's what it takes.

There's NO reason why Cutler should sit there waiting for McDaniels to find some way to trade him (probably in a few months).

IN TRUTH, Cutler would have been GONE no matter WHAT he said or did. McDaniels didn't want him, and proved it. He wanted a "game manager" QB who would fit into his "scheme."

Well, we can now see with absolute clarity what that "scheme" was worth. :coffee:

it's not that black and white, man. plus, QB is the weakest argument against mcd as the players he's coached in that position play beyond their potential. they're not all great, but they're better after working with him than before.

a question for everybody: if bowlen hired gruden or cowher rather than mcd (i'm not even sure they were available), and either of those coaches traded cutler would you have hated that coach with as much passion?

personal opinion: much of the mcd hatred is agism (he's "too young" "too immature" to do his job) and the carryover of hating the patriots (for whatever reason).

i say this because almost all of the arguments against him are "proven" by citing the players he traded away whom were fan favorites, or his attitude. yet, the mcd detractors rarely cite his inability to prepare his team properly (penalties all the time, players don't know how to react to being behind, etc.) or the fact that he didn't win. if they do cite the losing, it's always paired with poor personnel decisions reaping nostalgia for favored players of the past.

[Northman]

a question for everybody: if bowlen hired gruden or cowher rather than mcd (i'm not even sure they were available), and either of those coaches traded cutler would you have hated that coach with as much passion?



For me, it boils down to how it went down. If it played out exactly the same way i would say yes. But, i can guarantee neither of those coaches would of done that. Its just not in their persona and with their experience they would of known how to deal with ego's. But it also goes beyond the Cutler ordeal to me. I could of lived with Orton but there were too many other problems that McD had that added to my hatred for him. You have to remember, it wasnt just his attitude problem with Cutler. He had one with Nolan and some other coaches. Even some of the players who think he was a great coaching mind said he didnt know how to treat players socially. That speaks volumes to me.

[rationalfan]

For me, it boils down to how it went down. If it played out exactly the same way i would say yes. But, i can guarantee neither of those coaches would of done that. Its just not in their persona and with their experience they would of known how to deal with ego's. But it also goes beyond the Cutler ordeal to me. I could of lived with Orton but there were too many other problems that McD had that added to my hatred for him. You have to remember, it wasnt just his attitude problem with Cutler. He had one with Nolan and some other coaches. Even some of the players who think he was a great coaching mind said he didnt know how to treat players socially. That speaks volumes to me.

you're right. as this info comes out, it paints mcd as a loudmouth who might not respect the people around him. that happens when you're the smartest guy in the room. and, personally, i've always like smart people. that's why i supported mcd.

[Northman]

you're right. as this info comes out, it paints mcd as a loudmouth who might not respect the people around him. that happens when you're the smartest guy in the room. and, personally, i've always like smart people. that's why i supported mcd.

Well, evidently not smart enough to know how to manage and succeed with his staff and players. Maybe that was BB's problem early on in his career and he learned from it. Time will tell with McD but he wasnt brought in to completely rebuild and ultimately that falls on him.

[Ravage!!!]

could be true, but i'm always wary of anonymous sources - especially from sports "writers" on the radio or tv.

regardless, i agree mcd needs to improve as a leader. his team didn't respond well to adverse situations. and, frankly, they played like they were afraid of being yelled at; at least, that's how i explain the constant run of penalties this season. though, i find it hard to believe tom coughlin isn't yelling at everyone in the building all the time. the difference between him and mcd; a good stable of defensive linemen.

Coughlin WAS losing his locker room until he changed. He formed a group of leaders for the team, and listened to them as mediators. He relaxed on his approaches and fines, and stopped being so militant. What happened? The first year he started relaxing, he won the Super Bowl.

[Cugel]

it's not that black and white, man. plus, QB is the weakest argument against mcd as the players he's coached in that position play beyond their potential. they're not all great, but they're better after working with him than before.

That's true. He gets a mediocrity and has him playing above his natural talent level.

And thus proceeds to lose 17 out of his last 23 games. :coffee:


a question for everybody: if bowlen hired gruden or cowher rather than mcd (i'm not even sure they were available), and either of those coaches traded cutler would you have hated that coach with as much passion?

If they essentially THREW AWAY their franchise QB then FAILED MISERABLY to get the most for him, then utterly WASTED the draft picks they did manage to get, then YES!

There's ZERO chance of that happening because Cowher and Gruden know better than to tell Cutler "I'm looking forward to working with you" and then go out behind his back and try and engineer a trade -- then fail miserably, then lie about it and refuse to acknowledge any responsibility.

Gruden is pretty arrogant, but nobody gets that level of SB success without having an ability to spot talent and handle players. And McDaniels couldn't do either one.


personal opinion: much of the mcd hatred is agism (he's "too young" "too immature" to do his job) and the carryover of hating the patriots (for whatever reason).

Your "personal opinion is wrong. :coffee: We hate McDaniels because he drove the team into the ground. Not because he's "too young." He started screwing up the minute he got here and never let up for a minute. He got virtually NOTHING right during his entire tenure and his HORRIBLE decision-making actually FORCED Bowlen, much against his will, to actually FIRE the SOB with 4 games left on the season!

Our opinion has been PROVEN BY THE FACT of McIdiots UTTER FAILURE and being FIRED! Yours in support of him was WRONG!


i say this because almost all of the arguments against him are "proven" by citing the players he traded away whom were fan favorites,

This is PURE B.S.! You say "Fan favorites" as if these players were old sentimental favorites who couldn't do the job instead of extremely talented young players who should never have been traded -- and who were NOT replaced by equally talented players.

Who cares if Cutler plays for the Broncos? What matters is that Cutler's TALENT was thrown away instead of developed. What matters is that Orton isn't a long-term solution and Tebow is utterly a cipher at this point.

What matters is that Torain and Hillis would have been USEFUL to a team that was dead last in the NFL in running the ball!

What matters is that Brandon Marshall PLUS Brandon Lloyd would be a DEADLY combination at WR who would put the fear of God into other teams and instead we lost Marshall.

What matters is that Daniel Graham can't catch passes and Sheffler can.


or his attitude.

His attitude alienated his players and drove them away, alienated his coaches and undermined their loyalty, alienated the fans, alienated everybody. His "attitude" was a HUGE REASON for his failure and not some "irrelevant" fact.


yet, the mcd detractors rarely cite his inability to prepare his team properly (penalties all the time, players don't know how to react to being behind, etc.) or the fact that he didn't win. if they do cite the losing, it's always paired with poor personnel decisions reaping nostalgia for favored players of the past.


I asked three personnel people, from three different teams, in the last week to rank the team's roster at the moment. None of the three put the Broncos above 27th.

Football people don't like the team's depth chart, and they see an older team without reinforcements, especially on defense. That is usually the first sign of a longer rebuilding process.

They also see a team with just six picks in the 2011 draft and financial limitations in free agency, another difficult aspect of the rebuilding. (http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16828467)

According to NFL player directors the Broncos have LESS talent than all but FIVE teams in the league! Could anybody have even imagined this two years ago when McDaniels was hired and the roster was stocked with good young talent like Cutler, Sheffler, Marshall, etc.?

An almost TOTAL LACK OF TALENT is the biggest problem with the Broncos right now. Fixing minor coaching problems (penalties) is peanuts compared with the daunting, long-term problem of a TALENTLESS aging roster that will take YEARS to fix!

[Ravage!!!]

you're right. as this info comes out, it paints mcd as a loudmouth who might not respect the people around him. that happens when you're the smartest guy in the room. and, personally, i've always like smart people. that's why i supported mcd.

He's the one that thinks he's the smartest one in the room. I'm not so sure everyone else believes this. Thats one of the reasons I disliked him. He always thought he was the smartest guy around, and could coach everyone else and didn't let the other coaches do their job. McD thought he could be the HC, OC, and DC.

[frauschieze]

you're right. as this info comes out, it paints mcd as a loudmouth who might not respect the people around him. that happens when you're the smartest guy in the room. and, personally, i've always like smart people. that's why i supported mcd.

The smartest guy without the requisite people skills will NEVER be a good coach. Coaching requires more leadership capabilities than smarts.

And that's why I was never fond of McD. His skill set is much better suited for a top coordinator position than the one running the show.

[Cugel]

He's the one that thinks he's the smartest one in the room. I'm not so sure everyone else believes this. Thats one of the reasons I disliked him. He always thought he was the smartest guy around, and could coach everyone else and didn't let the other coaches do their job. McD thought he could be the HC, OC, and DC.

True. Of course we'll see tomorrow and over the next four games, whether the assistant coaches actually CAN coach or whether McDaniels simply picked losers there too!

[Lonestar]

responses:
1. every coach lies, why don't fans realize this? coaches don't care about fans. at all.
2. true, they're growing pains. i could live with them , and the reality the team was bad.
3. cutler was burning bridges before mcd arrived. my opinion: he wouldn't have been a lifetime bronco regardless of the coaches.
4. sounds like a typical broncos coach - ha.

also, here's a list of reasons why no coach could have turned this season into a winning campaign:
1. o-line ravaged with injuries during preseason, first half of season.
2. top running backs injured during entire preseason, early regular season.
3. team's most penetrating pass rusher lost for entire season.
4. team member commits suicide in preseason - believe me, the pall cast from that act hung over the team for months.
5. team's second most penetrating pass rusher injured in preseason and season.
6. fans, and apparently owner, failed to realize that an offense full of rookies and a defense with several starters injured wouldn't compete for division title.

as this whole mcd situation is digested, it feels like most fans and the organization didn't realize the reality of the team. they're bad, beaten up and young. it's a losing combination.

surely, mcd made some bad personnel decisions, but every team dose. yet, he was crucified for it. almost every player he jettisoned had an attitude problem. yet, ironically, all those fans who scream for "team players" on the roster conveniently forget that maxim when it applies to player they adore.

again, this doesn't mean anything because it's all over, but mcd was a scapegoat for fans who failed to believe the truth of their favored franchise. feel free to disagree, of course.

outstanding post :salute:

clear and concise and very logically thought out.

[Lonestar]

That's true. He gets a mediocrity and has him playing above his natural talent level.

And thus proceeds to lose 17 out of his last 23 games. :coffee:



If they essentially THREW AWAY their franchise QB then FAILED MISERABLY to get the most for him, then utterly WASTED the draft picks they did manage to get, then YES!

There's ZERO chance of that happening because Cowher and Gruden know better than to tell Cutler "I'm looking forward to working with you" and then go out behind his back and try and engineer a trade -- then fail miserably, then lie about it and refuse to acknowledge any responsibility.

Gruden is pretty arrogant, but nobody gets that level of SB success without having an ability to spot talent and handle players. And McDaniels couldn't do either one.



Your "personal opinion is wrong. :coffee: We hate McDaniels because he drove the team into the ground. Not because he's "too young." He started screwing up the minute he got here and never let up for a minute. He got virtually NOTHING right during his entire tenure and his HORRIBLE decision-making actually FORCED Bowlen, much against his will, to actually FIRE the SOB with 4 games left on the season!

Our opinion has been PROVEN BY THE FACT of McIdiots UTTER FAILURE and being FIRED! Yours in support of him was WRONG!



This is PURE B.S.! You say "Fan favorites" as if these players were old sentimental favorites who couldn't do the job instead of extremely talented young players who should never have been traded -- and who were NOT replaced by equally talented players.

Who cares if Cutler plays for the Broncos? What matters is that Cutler's TALENT was thrown away instead of developed. What matters is that Orton isn't a long-term solution and Tebow is utterly a cipher at this point.

What matters is that Torain and Hillis would have been USEFUL to a team that was dead last in the NFL in running the ball!

What matters is that Brandon Marshall PLUS Brandon Lloyd would be a DEADLY combination at WR who would put the fear of God into other teams and instead we lost Marshall.

What matters is that Daniel Graham can't catch passes and Sheffler can.



His attitude alienated his players and drove them away, alienated his coaches and undermined their loyalty, alienated the fans, alienated everybody. His "attitude" was a HUGE REASON for his failure and not some "irrelevant" fact.




According to NFL player directors the Broncos have LESS talent than all but FIVE teams in the league! Could anybody have even imagined this two years ago when McDaniels was hired and the roster was stocked with good young talent like Cutler, Sheffler, Marshall, etc.?

An almost TOTAL LACK OF TALENT is the biggest problem with the Broncos right now. Fixing minor coaching problems (penalties) is peanuts compared with the daunting, long-term problem of a TALENTLESS aging roster that will take YEARS to fix!

you forgot to preface this with IMHO.

Just as you feel so strongly about this just does not make it true, it makes it YOUR opinion and what you think..

[atwater27]

you forgot to preface this with IMHO.

Just as you feel so strongly about this just does not make it true, it makes it YOUR opinion and what you think..

Not really. He's right. You're wrong. Nuff said.

[Dreadnought]

you're right. as this info comes out, it paints mcd as a loudmouth who might not respect the people around him. that happens when you're the smartest guy in the room. and, personally, i've always like smart people. that's why i supported mcd.

A really smart guy always makes sure he finds assistants who are smarter than him, then makes sure he makes them look as smart as they are. Second raters make sure they remain the smartest kid around by surrounding themselves with stooges and flunkies. Thats why I am not especially impressed with people who are merely smart themselves. They are a dime a dozen and frequently make piss poor leaders.

[Dreadnought]

you forgot to preface this with IMHO.

Just as you feel so strongly about this just does not make it true, it makes it YOUR opinion and what you think..

Best English teacher I ever had would slam anything anyone ever wrote if they included phrases like "In my opinion." Its bad sloppy writing. If somebody writes something it stands to reason that its their opinion, so there is no need to restate the obvious.

Its a rule I forget myself sometimes and I then have to kick myself in the ass on behalf of Miss Hart :D

[TXBRONC]

you're right. as this info comes out, it paints mcd as a loudmouth who might not respect the people around him. that happens when you're the smartest guy in the room. and, personally, i've always like smart people. that's why i supported mcd.

Being smart doesn't mean you can lead hungry troops to a mess hall.

[Ravage!!!]

A really smart guy always makes sure he finds assistants who are smarter than him, then makes sure he makes them look as smart as they are. Second raters make sure they remain the smartest kid around by surrounding themselves with stooges and flunkies. Thats why I am not especially impressed with people who are merely smart themselves. They are a dime a dozen and frequently make piss poor leaders.

EXACTLY. THose that doubt themselves, are sure to group themselves with with those that aren't as good looking, aren't as smart, or aren't as financially secure. ALways being sure to be the top of the heap, by eliminating the competition.

The most successful people I've ever known, search to hang with those that are MORE successful.

[rcsodak]

You forgot the easy ones:
6. Chased the DC that took us from 29th to top 10 out of town because he thought he knew defense better
7. Was 5-17 in our last 22 games
8. Was directly involved in a cheating scandal which tarnished the reputation of an owner who is on the COMPETITION COMMITTEE
9. Couldn't play call himself out of a paper bag and his lack of commitment to the run was costing us games

How easy it is to gloss over the faults of this guy when you really like him and how easy it is to find them when you really like the Broncos.

WAA WAA WAA

Ya'll despised him from the moment he was announced!

He was the HC, and I supported him. He's no longer the HC, and I wish him well.

Now I will support Studdesville.

I can't wait until his new nick-names become common use. :coffee:

[BroncoJoe]

There's a difference between being intelligent and smart. McD is intelligent, just not too smart.

JMHO. (for Dread :) )

[rcsodak]

It's called "cognitive dissonance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance)" the tension that is created by a disconnect between facts and strongly held beliefs. In the face of mounting evidence that the strongly held beliefs were WRONG FROM THE START, the believers become MORE STRONGLY attached to their beliefs, not less, going so far as to make up evidence and deny the obvious.

Some fans latched onto the McDaniels bandwagon early on. Then came the Cutler fiasco, followed by draft fiasco, the season fiasco, the Sheffler, Marshall, Torain and Hillis Fiascoes, an endless series of fiascoes in fact.

As these failures mounted the critics cried "see!" The believers responded by holding more and more firmly to their denial of reality.

There are STILL some people on these boards who really think it was wrong to fire McDaniels, even though it was obvious to the entire world (including finally Bowlen) that it wasn't going to work out.

For most, there was a breaking point somewhere along the way. But for the most deeply deluded, there's still a wall of denial they will never breach. :coffee:

....sour grapes.... :coffee:

Same can be said for the shanny backers. They couldn't see the mediocrity of his ways until he was gone. They couldn't see the shit for players he had assembled, until he was gone.

[rcsodak]

ahhh thee last two elusive doo doo birds:rolleyes:

How typical of you. :coffee:

[rcsodak]

Orton meanwhile couldn't find the end-zone with a seeing-eye-dog. :coffee:


Orton-20TD/6int

cutler-17TD/10int

I don't think it's Orton that is in need of the dog. :coffee:

[Tned]

Orton-20TD/6int

cutler-17TD/10int

I don't think it's Orton that is in need of the dog. :coffee:

No, it's the fans that are blinded by their hate ex-players and coaches that are in need of a seeing eye dog.

[rcsodak]

south dakota minds think alike, apparently.

Only the 'rational' ones. :D

[arapaho2]

Orton-20TD/6int

cutler-17TD/10int

I don't think it's Orton that is in need of the dog. :coffee:

Cutler 8 wins.....orton 3.......simple

[Softskull]

Being smart doesn't mean you can lead hungry troops to a mess hall.

Yep, George McClellan and Jimmy Carter were both really smart people.

[rcsodak]

you're right. as this info comes out, it paints mcd as a loudmouth who might not respect the people around him. that happens when you're the smartest guy in the room. and, personally, i've always like smart people. that's why i supported mcd.

Exactly! I've YET to hear one person, be it a player, ex-player, FO, ex-FO, that has said McD didn't have the acumen to coach. In fact, ALL the people that have opined on his abilities has said he's intelligent beyond his years.

I guess to me, if a coach/player, has a deficiency, you work on that one trait, while hanging onto their positives. In other words, send him to anger management classes, and take away his personnel responsibilities and have him do what he do best! :D

Coughlin was always considered a hothead. Players despised him, didn't like playing for him, blah blah blah. He corrected that fault and is winning games. I look for the same from McD when he gets his next chance.

Ellis screwed the pooch on this. He should be the one to get axed but is too close to Mr B.

[GEM]

....sour grapes.... :coffee:

Same can be said for the shanny backers. They couldn't see the mediocrity of his ways until he was gone. They couldn't see the shit for players he had assembled, until he was gone.

It's really entertaining watching some dump on Shanahan while standing up for McDaniels. Like McDaniels did one single good thing for this franchise, while all Shanahan did was win a couple Super Bowls, coached to the team to the best home record in the last couple decades, coached the franchise to being one of the best teams in the W-L column during his tenure.

But hey throw that guy under the bus while sticking up for a guy who dismantled this franchise and caused 5+ years worth of damage in a mere 22 mos.

[rcsodak]

According to NFL player directors the Broncos have LESS talent than all but FIVE teams in the league! Could anybody have even imagined this two years ago when McDaniels was hired and the roster was stocked with good young talent like Cutler, Sheffler, Marshall, etc.?

An almost TOTAL LACK OF TALENT is the biggest problem with the Broncos right now. Fixing minor coaching problems (penalties) is peanuts compared with the daunting, long-term problem of a TALENTLESS aging roster that will take YEARS to fix!

Using Cutler/Shefler/Marshall as examples as good young talent, when they were replaced with younger good talent is funny. I like Gronk better than shefler...at least he can block. I like DT better than Marshall, as he's not a walking time-bomb. As for cutler, he still hasn't proven to be anything to write home about, so I'll reserve judgement on the young Jeff George clone.

As for the rest of the team, it was ALREADY considered short of talent, long on age. The Oline was ancient and on the decline. The Dline was in constant flux and the rest of the D was Champ and his underlings. In other words, what you're seeing now is no different than when shanny was there. Though I will say the FA's brought in under McD are looking to be of better quality than what was there before.

[frauschieze]

WAA WAA WAA

Ya'll despised him from the moment he was announced!

He was the HC, and I supported him. He's no longer the HC, and I wish him well.

Now I will support Studdesville.

I can't wait until his new nick-names become common use. :coffee:

Awesome solid argument. That really refutes what the previous poster said, what with his list of facts.

[GEM]

Using Cutler/Shefler/Marshall as examples as good young talent, when they were replaced with younger good talent is funny. I like Gronk better than shefler...at least he can block. I like DT better than Marshall, as he's not a walking time-bomb. As for cutler, he still hasn't proven to be anything to write home about, so I'll reserve judgement on the young Jeff George clone.

As for the rest of the team, it was ALREADY considered short of talent, long on age. The Oline was ancient and on the decline. The Dline was in constant flux and the rest of the D was Champ and his underlings. In other words, what you're seeing now is no different than when shanny was there. Though I will say the FA's brought in under McD are looking to be of better quality than what was there before.

Who replaced Cutler and Scheffler? You spoke of someone younger and better. I don't see it on our roster.

You only like Gronk better because of McD. If it weren't McD that pulled that trigger you would say it was a dumb freaking move. He got a tight end that fit his blocking scheme, when most teams in the NFL are using their TE's as a receiver. Now we don't have a single TE that can catch a long, beautiful ball over 20 yards. Daniel Graham....hahahahaha...that guy is a blocker that drops anything thrown long ball to him. Not to mention he is one of the highest paid TE's and can't catch a freaking ball. I like the guy and I like his blocking skills, but he ain't no Sharpe. Now McD is gone and we can add TE to the needs list AGAIN.

Thomas can't stay healthy long enough to make an impact. I really like the kid as well, he does show flashes. But he does us no good sitting on the bench.

Cutler is leading his team to a 9-3 record on his way to the playoffs. Orton is leading his team ....ugh 3-9 and he's getting worse as the season goes on.

[Tned]

It's really entertaining watching some dump on Shanahan while standing up for McDaniels. Like McDaniels did one single good thing for this franchise, while all Shanahan did was win a couple Super Bowls, coached to the team to the best home record in the last couple decades, coached the franchise to being one of the best teams in the W-L column during his tenure.

But hey throw that guy under the bus while sticking up for a guy who dismantled this franchise and caused 5+ years worth of damage in a mere 22 mos.

Not only that, those talking about how 'ugly' and 'negative' fans have been regarding McDaniels, were the ones doing the same thing regarding Shanahan while mikey was still the HC in Denver.

[Northman]

Not only that, those talking about how 'ugly' and 'negative' fans have been regarding McDaniels, were the ones doing the same thing regarding Shanahan while mikey was still the HC in Denver.

So much for their "Ill support the HC no matter what" speech they keep giving. :lol:

[Tned]

So much for their "Ill support the HC no matter what" speech they keep giving. :lol:

No, it's true, as long as it's 'their HC'. That was in the fine print that you missed. Gotta read the fine print, Missy.

[turftoad]

No, it's true, as long as it's 'their HC'. That was in the fine print that you missed. Gotta read the fine print, Missy.

I think thats Mr. Missy. :listen:

[Tned]

I think thats Mr. Missy. :listen:

It's all very confusing.