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View Full Version : Bill Williamson: McDaniels forced Denver's hand



scott.475
12-06-2010, 11:19 PM
"The Broncos went from one of the more attractive organizations in the NFL to one in total disarray. McDaniels will go down as one of the most reviled figures in Denver sports history."

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/21281/mcdaniels-force-denvers-hand

I have no doubt he wanted to win, just not capable as a head coach in any respect. Sad what he did to our Broncos.

tomjonesrocks
12-06-2010, 11:31 PM
"The Broncos fired McDaniels before even deciding who would be the interim coach." :D :beer:

Dzone
12-06-2010, 11:41 PM
good article. thanks for posting this link

Dzone
12-06-2010, 11:44 PM
I still cant believe we lost Cutler...now we caN see him become great at Chicago...I was a big Cutler fan...He wasnt nearly as immature as mcdaniels

SmilinAssasSin27
12-06-2010, 11:50 PM
I still think Cutler is a bum. Still fumbles. Still tosses INTs. You'll again see over the next 4 weeks when he faces real opposition. He'll crumble due to his inability to audible or check down beyond his first option. He's looked good lately, but he also had these moments in Denver. The defense he's faced lately haven't made him have to think. Even Philly, whose CBs are a wreck right now.

Tned
12-06-2010, 11:50 PM
"The Broncos went from one of the more attractive organizations in the NFL to one in total disarray. McDaniels will go down as one of the most reviled figures in Denver sports history."

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/21281/mcdaniels-force-denvers-hand

I have no doubt he wanted to win, just not capable as a head coach in any respect. Sad what he did to our Broncos.

Other than trading away virtually all the talent the Broncos had and throwing away draft picks like he had an unlimited supply, I though he did a pretty good job.

turftoad
12-06-2010, 11:51 PM
This is my favorite part of the article.

"Cutler is probably heading to the playoffs with the Bears this season while McDaniels is heading to the unemployment line.

Other famous McDaniels gaffes include trading running back Peyton Hillis to Cleveland for No. 3 quarterback Brady Quinn and trading Denver’s No. 1 pick in 2010 to take cornerback Alphonso Smith in the second round in 2009 -- only to give up on Smith this year.

McDaniels also parted ways with successful defensive coordinator Mike Nolan after one season and changed Shanahan’s patented zone-blocking running scheme to a more traditional power scheme. Denver’s run game has been at the bottom of the NFL nearly all season.

The Broncos went from one of the more attractive organizations in the NFL to one in total disarray. McDaniels will go down as one of the most reviled figures in Denver sports history.

The timing of his firing may have been a surprise, but in the end it was deserved."

turftoad
12-06-2010, 11:54 PM
I still think Cutler is a bum. Still fumbles. Still tosses INTs. You'll again see over the next 4 weeks when he faces real opposition. He'll crumble due to his inability to audible or check down beyond his first option. He's looked good lately, but he also had these moments in Denver. The defense he's faced lately haven't made him have to think. Even Philly, whose CBs are a wreck right now.

Cutler is 9-3 and well on the way to playoffs my friend.

Tned
12-06-2010, 11:57 PM
Cutler is 9-3 and well on the way to playoffs my friend.

Yea, but he pouts on the bench after he throws an int. That bum....

broncophan
12-07-2010, 12:02 AM
Cutler is 9-3 and well on the way to playoffs my friend.

Cutler didn't want to be here.....I don't want anyone on the broncos who doesn't want to be there........regardless of who the head coach is.....cutler may very well be going to the playoffs....and maybe not....hopefully there are better days ahead....and sooner rather than later...for the broncos...I know I sure don't want a new head coach every 2 or 3 years.

Dzone
12-07-2010, 12:19 AM
wait up here, Cutler saw what an assclown Mcdaniels is way before any of us did. Cant blame him. He saw this dude was not someone he wanted to be around...Thats a lot different than not wanting to be here. Cutler got out before the whole place collapsed. He got lucky

Dzone
12-07-2010, 12:25 AM
Hillis, the same thing...He knew what an idiot Mcdaniels is...this is a guy who gets rid of a #1 pick (that became the twelfth overall pick) to get a guy alphonso smith who got schooled on national tv on turkey day, shown as a worthless player...man, that did a lot of damage to this teams ability to succeed. That Pick could have been used on a starting safety or rolando mclain type

Northman
12-07-2010, 12:30 AM
wait up here, Cutler saw what an assclown Mcdaniels is way before any of us did.

Thats certainly one way to look at it. :lol:

Im ok with Jay not being here. It sucks but it is what it is. As for the INT's and silly nitpicking just look at Favre and Manning. They are turnover machines too. Did i happen to mention Elway had more INT's his first 5 years compared to Jay's? And John had the luxury of being in the same system no less. Is Jay perfect? No. but lets drop the silly "turnover" BS already. All gunslingers have the knack for looking pretty crappy from time to time.

scott.475
12-07-2010, 12:41 AM
Know what I think is a little frightening, and shows how really bad a head coach McD was? Of all those trades, the only one made before last season was Cutler. Down the stretch, still loaded with talent, he still was not able to win. Even with Hillis, Marshall, and the others still here I STILL don't think McD could have worked out. Too rigidly married to his system to make it fit really talented players.

Day1BroncoFan
12-07-2010, 12:47 AM
I'm glad cutler is gone, I'm glad mcd is gone.

Now lets fix it and move on. :2thumbs:

SmilinAssasSin27
12-07-2010, 01:42 PM
Cutler is 9-3 and well on the way to playoffs my friend.

avatar bet that they miss the playoffs...

You set the terms.

broncogirl7
12-07-2010, 01:58 PM
Cutler didn't want to be here.....I don't want anyone on the broncos who doesn't want to be there........regardless of who the head coach is.....cutler may very well be going to the playoffs....and maybe not....hopefully there are better days ahead....and sooner rather than later...for the broncos...I know I sure don't want a new head coach every 2 or 3 years.

Cutler didn't want to be here because of that douch McDaniels. McDaniels made sure Cutler didn't want to be here. Don't think McDaniels was telling the truth for one minute in regards to the Cutler situation!!!!

TXBRONC
12-07-2010, 02:09 PM
Cutler didn't want to be here.....I don't want anyone on the broncos who doesn't want to be there........regardless of who the head coach is.....cutler may very well be going to the playoffs....and maybe not....hopefully there are better days ahead....and sooner rather than later...for the broncos...I know I sure don't want a new head coach every 2 or 3 years.

Just because he said it doesn't mean they had to cave to the demand. The grown up thing to do for the coach to put his dick back his pants and try to smooth things out with Cutler rather than go down the path he choose. We are undoubtedly worse off as a team because McDaniels chose to get into pissing contest with three player and one very good defensive coordinator. The same mantra was used in all three cases "they didn't want to be here" so lets get rid of them. Maybe if McDaniels had done better being a grown up maybe we wouldn't be so depleted of talent.

TXBRONC
12-07-2010, 02:10 PM
Cutler didn't want to be here because of that douch McDaniels. McDaniels made sure Cutler didn't want to be here. Don't think McDaniels was telling the truth for one minute in regards to the Cutler situation!!!!

Yes and the same with Marshall, Scheffler and Nolan.

Dreadnought
12-07-2010, 02:13 PM
Cutler didn't want to be here because of that douch McDaniels. McDaniels made sure Cutler didn't want to be here. Don't think McDaniels was telling the truth for one minute in regards to the Cutler situation!!!!

Pretty much my take as well. I eventually came to the conclusion that you could tell McDaniels was lying when his lips were moving - e.g. "Lamont Jordan gives us our best chance to win" and such statements. All nonsense. If you then apply that same template to pretty much all personnel situations of the past two years it explains nearly all of them. Doesn't make it better, but at least there is some closure and some peace.

Juriga72
12-07-2010, 02:27 PM
Ok..... Here's the thing about Jay I really liked.

LAST year in the first game of the year they lose 2/3 of the staring linebackers including Urlacher. The Bears defense dives all the way to 17th overall and 21st scoring and they STILL win 7 games with 27 ints thrown.

WHAT was it that people were saying about Kyle??? "Give him just a average D and he'd be AWESOME!!!!" Jay took two crappy defenses and went 1 game under .500 for two years.

GEM
12-07-2010, 03:13 PM
Hillis, the same thing...He knew what an idiot Mcdaniels is...this is a guy who gets rid of a #1 pick (that became the twelfth overall pick) to get a guy alphonso smith who got schooled on national tv on turkey day, shown as a worthless player...man, that did a lot of damage to this teams ability to succeed. That Pick could have been used on a starting safety or rolando mclain type

They said on the radio this morning that McD was all over Hillis ass. So much so that Hillis considered quitting football all together. He was stopped in the parking lot of Dove Valley by teammates.

Ravage!!!
12-07-2010, 03:17 PM
avatar bet that they miss the playoffs...

You set the terms.

I'll take that bet

Dreadnought
12-07-2010, 03:20 PM
They said on the radio this morning that McD was all over Hillis ass. So much so that Hillis considered quitting football all together. He was stopped in the parking lot of Dove Valley by teammates.

What a total douche. I've always suspected this kind of stuff was behind Scheff's muttering that he wished the season was over - which, by the way, isn't exactly a case of outrageous insubordination. It was ridiculous case of overreaction on top of it by McDaniels. All part and parcel of a shabby little man way out of his depth. Who here, working for a petty arsewipe of a boss, hasn't counted down the days to vacation and commented to that effect?

I also suspect more stories will follow

Ravage!!!
12-07-2010, 03:20 PM
Cutler didn't want to be here because of that douch McDaniels. McDaniels made sure Cutler didn't want to be here. Don't think McDaniels was telling the truth for one minute in regards to the Cutler situation!!!!

Exactly. The difference was, Cutler was just the first. After that, we see that McDoosh couldn't get along with anyone... including coaches. He treated people like shit, and lied any/every time he talked. People at the time, didn't have a pattern set by McD and believed the coach. But from everything we've seen since, shows me a guy that gives Cutler a HELL of a lot more clout as far as how things went down. People forget that Cutler came to Denver to meet with McD face-to-face and commented on McD's attitude during the meeting. Now we absolutely MUST see that the truth has to lie closer to Cutler's version than McD, based on every piece of evidence that's happened since.

Ravage!!!
12-07-2010, 03:22 PM
What a total douche. I've always suspected this kind of stuff was behind Scheff's muttering that he wished the season was over - which, by the way, isn't exactly a case of outrageous insubordination. It was ridiculous case of overreaction on top of it by McDaniels. All part and parcel of a shabby little man way out of his depth. Who here, working for a petty arsewipe of a boss, hasn't counted down the days to vacation and commented to that effect?

I also suspect more stories will follow

Not to mention the Marshall/Scheffler benching last year. Who really believes the version given by McD? Anyone? Bueller?

GEM
12-07-2010, 03:34 PM
My favorite part of the article...

That isn't going to happen. Ellis done ****** any chance of that up.

TXBRONC
12-07-2010, 03:35 PM
What a total douche. I've always suspected this kind of stuff was behind Scheff's muttering that he wished the season was over - which, by the way, isn't exactly a case of outrageous insubordination. It was ridiculous case of overreaction on top of it by McDaniels. All part and parcel of a shabby little man way out of his depth. Who here, working for a petty arsewipe of a boss, hasn't counted down the days to vacation and commented to that effect?

I also suspect more stories will follow

So did I. Scheffler up to that point had ALWAYS be model citizen. I asked the question more than once for someone show me where Scheffler been habitual locker room cancer. I have yet to find even one taker. Even with what he said never did view it as being a cancer and not wanting be their.

I try to avoid call players and coaches names but I honestly this discriptive of the kind of boss McDaniel. He was a ***** from the word go.

GEM
12-07-2010, 03:37 PM
So did I. Scheffler up to that point had ALWAYS be model citizen everything we. I asked the question more than once for someone show me where Scheffler been habitual locker room cancer. I have yet to find even one taker. Even with what he said never did view it as being a cancer and not wanting be their.

I try to avoid call players and coaches names but I honestly this discriptive of the kind of boss McDaniel. He was a ***** from the word go.

Most coaches see talent and say OOOOOH!!!

McD saw talent and said....You're fired!

:(

Tned
12-07-2010, 03:38 PM
That isn't going to happen. Ellis done ****** any chance of that up.

Very, very unlikely that Ellis' comment in that press conference changed anything. The contract, not Ellis' comment, would determine whether or not he could be fired for cause.

TXBRONC
12-07-2010, 03:38 PM
That isn't going to happen. Ellis done ****** any chance of that up.

More than likely. But with a staffer outing McDaniels about his talk about the differences between Spygate and SpygateII in detail it means he lied to both the public and worse yet to Bowlen.

frauschieze
12-07-2010, 03:38 PM
Just because he said it doesn't mean they had to cave to the demand. The grown up thing to do for the coach to put his dick back his pants and try to smooth things out with Cutler rather than go down the path he choose. We are undoubtedly worse off as a team because McDaniels chose to get into pissing contest with three player and one very good defensive coordinator. The same mantra was used in all three cases "they didn't want to be here" so lets get rid of them. Maybe if McDaniels had done better being a grown up maybe we wouldn't be so depleted of talent.

Combine this with the fact that McD was known as a "player's coach" and being on the same level as the players, I don't believe it's a coincidence that 3 of the 4 major trades resulted in those players going to their favorite team growing up. Smacks of trying to cover up a signficant lack of people skills with bending over backwards to make himself look like a nice guy.

TXBRONC
12-07-2010, 03:40 PM
Most coaches see talent and say OOOOOH!!!

McD saw talent and said....You're fired!

:(

First question to all potential players:

How are you at kissing?

GEM
12-07-2010, 03:47 PM
Very, very unlikely that Ellis' comment in that press conference changed anything. The contract, not Ellis' comment, would determine whether or not he could be fired for cause.

The contract itself does have a "cause" clause. The fact that Ellis came out in the press and stated that it was not a fireable offense and that they didn't claim the firing was with cause when they released McD are their biggest stumbling blocks in enforcing the clause.

GEM
12-07-2010, 03:50 PM
I'm just stating what has been all over the radio all day. They can't build a case for firing with cause because they basically admitted it wasn't a fireable offense and because they didn't state that to McD when they released him of duties last night. Bowlen went as far as to say that he would have the termination paperwork with the the settlement to McD on Tuesday.

Hard to fight all of that. Mortenson and a few others have said that because of those things, it wouldn't hold up in a grievance hearing.

Tned
12-07-2010, 03:55 PM
The contract itself does have a "cause" clause. The fact that Ellis came out in the press and stated that it was not a fireable offense and that they didn't claim the firing was with cause when they released McD are their biggest stumbling blocks in enforcing the clause.

Not doing it when he was actually fired, could create a problem, I was just saying in contract law, the comments by Ellis would be a fairly minor factor. The facts of whether or not it was "cause" would stand on their own, and the only argument Josh's lawyer would have is that Ellis' comments indicated the Broncos knew and waived their right to fire him for cause.

However, not knowing what happened behind the scenes or what facts they actually have, it's pure speculation (fancy word for talking out my ass) on this.

arapaho2
12-07-2010, 04:51 PM
could be more info came to light?....as in when ellis said it wasnt a dismissable offense it wasnt...but recent info like maybe mcd did know, ordered it..or has been doing it...came into thier hands...and now its a dismissable offense?

rationalfan
12-07-2010, 04:56 PM
typical williamson article: stating the obvious with virtually no original information.

SmilinAssasSin27
12-09-2010, 12:19 AM
I'll take that bet

turf has dibs, but i'll keep ya in mind if i don't here from him by sunday.

dogfish
12-09-2010, 12:25 AM
turf has dibs, but i'll keep ya in mind if i don't here from him by sunday.

missing your shirtless tebow avatar, smiley?


:heh:

SmilinAssasSin27
12-09-2010, 12:38 AM
never

turftoad
12-09-2010, 12:45 AM
turf has dibs, but i'll keep ya in mind if i don't here from him by sunday.

Ah ha....... OK, you're on my friend.

Chi ( at home) just might beat NE this week. GB has a tough game at Det. and the Vikes host the Giants who have been playing well.


GB loses to Det, the Giants come into the Dome and beat the Vikes and Chi pulls one out vs NE, the Bears have a 3 game lead in the Div, they should take it. Hey, stranger things have happened. :shocked:

dogfish
12-09-2010, 01:41 AM
detroit beating green bay? toad, you're still drunk from celebrating the mcdaniels firing. . .:laugh:

turftoad
12-09-2010, 11:36 AM
detroit beating green bay? toad, you're still drunk from celebrating the mcdaniels firing. . .:laugh:

Hey, I'm just sayin theres a chance. Det has been playing tough and they are at home. That said, GB has been playing very also. I don't think it's going to be a cake walk for the Pack.

WARHORSE
12-09-2010, 01:45 PM
Cutler SUCKS. And the Chicago Beers with him.


Marshall SUCKS. And the Miami Fish Machine with him.


Scheffler SUCKS. And the Detroit Trash Dump with him.


Alphonso Smith SUCKS. And Tony Scheffler with him.




Tim Tebow is da BOMB, and the Denver Broncos with him.




:salute::salute::salute:

SmilinAssasSin27
12-09-2010, 01:57 PM
Ah ha....... OK, you're on my friend.

Chi ( at home) just might beat NE this week. GB has a tough game at Det. and the Vikes host the Giants who have been playing well.


GB loses to Det, the Giants come into the Dome and beat the Vikes and Chi pulls one out vs NE, the Bears have a 3 game lead in the Div, they should take it. Hey, stranger things have happened. :shocked:

cool...we can PM eachother for the specific avatars we each have in mind.

Cugel
12-10-2010, 01:37 AM
Cutler didn't want to be here.....I don't want anyone on the broncos who doesn't want to be there........regardless of who the head coach is.....cutler may very well be going to the playoffs....and maybe not....hopefully there are better days ahead....and sooner rather than later...for the broncos...I know I sure don't want a new head coach every 2 or 3 years.



Who "didn't want" Cutler to be here first? Hmmmn?

Who said:

"I don't regret anything" and "given similar circumstances I'd do it again" and "nothing's guaranteed" (in response to Cutler's legitimate question about whether he was going to be the Broncos QB in the future.

That's right McDaniels said all those things in the 20 minute tirade he delivered in the "reconciliation" meeting between him and Cutler. Cutler walked in thinking that McDaniels wanted to patch things up, admit his role in trying to trade Cutler, and then they'd move forward together.

Nothing of the sort. McDaniels brazenly LIED, and denied all responsibility -- a pattern he would demonstrate again and again with distressing regularity.

Cutler didn't have to take that kind of crap, and he didn't.

Now he's going to the playoffs while Denver watches on TV and McDaniels collects his unemployment checks.

Guess Cutler had the last laugh. :coffee:

Denver27og
12-10-2010, 11:53 PM
I still think Cutler is a bum. Still fumbles. Still tosses INTs. You'll again see over the next 4 weeks when he faces real opposition. He'll crumble due to his inability to audible or check down beyond his first option. He's looked good lately, but he also had these moments in Denver. The defense he's faced lately haven't made him have to think. Even Philly, whose CBs are a wreck right now.



keep on saying that kind of stuff about cutler guys... whatever makes u feel better

Lonestar
12-11-2010, 01:12 AM
Who "didn't want" Cutler to be here first? Hmmmn?

Who said:

"I don't regret anything" and "given similar circumstances I'd do it again" and "nothing's guaranteed" (in response to Cutler's legitimate question about whether he was going to be the Broncos QB in the future.

That's right McDaniels said all those things in the 20 minute tirade he delivered in the "reconciliation" meeting between him and Cutler. Cutler walked in thinking that McDaniels wanted to patch things up, admit his role in trying to trade Cutler, and then they'd move forward together.

Nothing of the sort. McDaniels brazenly LIED, and denied all responsibility -- a pattern he would demonstrate again and again with distressing regularity.

Cutler didn't have to take that kind of crap, and he didn't.

Now he's going to the playoffs while Denver watches on TV and McDaniels collects his unemployment checks.

Guess Cutler had the last laugh. :coffee:

yep all $7,000,000.00. who has the last laugh?

face it cutler could not handle being told the best QB or for that matter player would play (something that everyone else understood) or that if there was a chance to UPGRADE the team NO one was exempt 9Something that every player understands).

Yep cutler may get to the playoffs But then he may choke again, like he did in 08 when we had a three game lead with three to go. And in the final game River bitch slapped him. :salute:

Lonestar
12-11-2010, 01:15 AM
sorry did not follow the thread completely and just saw this..



Originally Posted by SmilinAssasSin27
I still think Cutler is a bum. Still fumbles. Still tosses INTs. You'll again see over the next 4 weeks when he faces real opposition. He'll crumble due to his inability to audible or check down beyond his first option. He's looked good lately, but he also had these moments in Denver. The defense he's faced lately haven't made him have to think. Even Philly, whose CBs are a wreck right now.
:salute::salute:

After I posted much the same thing.

they all forget Rivers was so far inside his skull he would have never beat SAN again while PR was playing there..

BeefStew25
12-11-2010, 01:21 AM
never

Heheheheheheh

Tned
12-11-2010, 01:24 AM
Yea, McDaniels just picked up the phonee and said no

arapaho2
12-11-2010, 01:58 AM
yep all $7,000,000.00. who has the last laugh?

face it cutler could not handle being told the best QB or for that matter player would play (something that everyone else understood) or that if there was a chance to UPGRADE the team NO one was exempt 9Something that every player understands).

Yep cutler may get to the playoffs But then he may choke again, like he did in 08 when we had a three game lead with three to go. And in the final game River bitch slapped him. :salute:

talk about a selective memory :lol::lol:

cutler couldnt stand haveing a coaach not be able to say he wont be traded...there was not gonna be a battle between cutler and caassel :lol: because cassel being here would have meant mcd dooshes trade worked and cutler was gone

and cutler choked?....not the defense?

so it was cutler averging 282 ypg...4 total TDS 3 to's
all while having to pass ...33...45...49 times in those games...with a rb pulled from the cell phone booth

and the defense allowing 37.3 points per game ....and you blame cutler?:lol:


tell me...whats rivers record of wins when his def allows over 30 points? P manning? marino? elway? favre?

:lol: this is me laughing at you...not with you

BroncoNut
12-11-2010, 09:33 AM
wait up here, Cutler saw what an assclown Mcdaniels is way before any of us did. Cant blame him. He saw this dude was not someone he wanted to be around...Thats a lot different than not wanting to be here. Cutler got out before the whole place collapsed. He got lucky

Actually, Cutler's pre-trade behaviour is kinda admirable right now

BroncoNut
12-11-2010, 09:36 AM
Yea, but he pouts on the bench after he throws an int. That bum....

:lol:

Denver27og
12-11-2010, 10:42 AM
from what I remember of cutler... yea he locked in on wrs... hes not the best at reading defenses blitzes... freakin MLB spys... but.... he played hard for us...

Cugel
12-11-2010, 12:42 PM
yep all $7,000,000.00. who has the last laugh?

face it cutler could not handle being told the best QB or for that matter player would play (something that everyone else understood) or that if there was a chance to UPGRADE the team NO one was exempt 9Something that every player understands).

Yep cutler may get to the playoffs But then he may choke again, like he did in 08 when we had a three game lead with three to go. And in the final game River bitch slapped him. :salute:

B.S. highlighted in Yellow. :coffee:

Teams make a commitment to their starting QB to make that guy the franchise QB or else they trade them. Period. Starting QBs make too much money to hang around if the coach doesn't believe in them.

What McDaniels was telling Cutler was "I'm STILL going to trade you just as soon as I can."

It was all part of McDaniels arrogance and anger management issues. The deal blew up in McIdiot's face because he thought Belicheck would have to agree to the trade -- and he didn't.

So, there's McMoron with egg on his face and Cutler wants an explanation.

Well, the explanation is: "I screwed up! I thought I could ship you off for Matt Cassel and now I'm stuck with you and the fans are mad at me. So, it's obviously YOUR fault for making me look bad."

That's a sign of a serious personality defect and anger management issues.

All he had to do wast admit the truth and patch things up and move forward. He couldn't do that. Instead he was FORCED into a meeting during which he delivered a 20 minute monologue where he basically:

1. Repeated the same lying cover-up he told over and over again.

2. Said he regretted NOTHING.

3. Said he'd do it again in a heart-beat.

4. Said that Cutler's position with the team was insecure.

Since Cutler had around 20 teams that wanted him to be their starting QB and at least 10 that were willing to trade high round draft picks for him, and 3 or 4 that were willing to engage in a BIDDING WAR for the right to land him (including the Jets and a Redskins team notorious for over-paying for players), WHY should he tolerate that kind of crap?

Only a complete IDIOT would sit there and say: "OK, I'll just sit here and twist slowly in the wind and wait for the axe."

He demanded a trade. He was RIGHT to do so.

And by NOW all the Cutler haters have to admit, McDaniels was FLAT WRONG about this deal JUST as he was about EVERYTHING HE DID! You haven't got a LEG to stand on in defending McDaniels at this point! He's proven over and over that his judgment is pure crap.

His record is undeniable proof that he SCREWED UP! Orton's record is undeniable proof that he SCREWED UP!

So, pull your head out of the sand or wherever and take a look at the RECORD: 5-17 over the last 22 games. Period. :coffee:

Northman
12-11-2010, 12:49 PM
from what I remember of cutler... yea he locked in on wrs... hes not the best at reading defenses blitzes... freakin MLB spys... but.... he played hard for us...

He was also just in his third year with a lot of things around him not working at full capacity namely defense, special teams, and injuries to RB's. For the last 2 years i kept hearing how important it was for McD to have all his pieces in place but those same people had no problem throwing Jay under the bus and calling him a failure. Funny how that works.

atwater27
12-11-2010, 12:49 PM
Thats certainly one way to look at it. :lol:

Im ok with Jay not being here. It sucks but it is what it is. As for the INT's and silly nitpicking just look at Favre and Manning. They are turnover machines too. Did i happen to mention Elway had more INT's his first 5 years compared to Jay's? And John had the luxury of being in the same system no less. Is Jay perfect? No. but lets drop the silly "turnover" BS already. All gunslingers have the knack for looking pretty crappy from time to time.

Post of the week! Absolutely annihilates the Cutler haters.

GEM
12-11-2010, 12:54 PM
Oh YAY!!!! Another Cutler love/hate thread. Weeeee weeeeee weeeeee! :lol:

GEM
12-11-2010, 12:57 PM
B.S. highlighted in Yellow. :coffee:

Teams make a commitment to their starting QB to make that guy the franchise QB or else they trade them. Period. Starting QBs make too much money to hang around if the coach doesn't believe in them.

What McDaniels was telling Cutler was "I'm STILL going to trade you just as soon as I can."

It was all part of McDaniels arrogance and anger management issues. The deal blew up in McIdiot's face because he thought Belicheck would have to agree to the trade -- and he didn't.

So, there's McMoron with egg on his face and Cutler wants an explanation.

Well, the explanation is: "I screwed up! I thought I could ship you off for Matt Cassel and now I'm stuck with you and the fans are mad at me. So, it's obviously YOUR fault for making me look bad."

That's a sign of a serious personality defect and anger management issues.

All he had to do wast admit the truth and patch things up and move forward. He couldn't do that. Instead he was FORCED into a meeting during which he delivered a 20 minute monologue where he basically:

1. Repeated the same lying cover-up he told over and over again.

2. Said he regretted NOTHING.

3. Said he'd do it again in a heart-beat.

4. Said that Cutler's position with the team was insecure.

Since Cutler had around 20 teams that wanted him to be their starting QB and at least 10 that were willing to trade high round draft picks for him, and 3 or 4 that were willing to engage in a BIDDING WAR for the right to land him (including the Jets and a Redskins team notorious for over-paying for players), WHY should he tolerate that kind of crap?

Only a complete IDIOT would sit there and say: "OK, I'll just sit here and twist slowly in the wind and wait for the axe."

He demanded a trade. He was RIGHT to do so.

And by NOW all the Cutler haters have to admit, McDaniels was FLAT WRONG about this deal JUST as he was about EVERYTHING HE DID! You haven't got a LEG to stand on in defending McDaniels at this point! He's proven over and over that his judgment is pure crap.

His record is undeniable proof that he SCREWED UP! Orton's record is undeniable proof that he SCREWED UP!

So, pull your head out of the sand or wherever and take a look at the RECORD: 5-17 over the last 22 games. Period. :coffee:

We'd be better with Cutler than not, but I still don't like the kid. :lol: Didn't much like him when he was here, but that's neither here nor there. McDaniels ****** up on all accounts.

Ravage!!!
12-11-2010, 01:06 PM
The Cutler trade will always be a topic for a number of years. I said it then, and I'll say it now..... that trade could set this team back a decade.

Not only did we trade the most talented QB we've had since Elway.. but we have used a TON of picks, since, to try and replace that talent. Teams draft for years and years and years before they finally have a chance to get the QB that they need to move up. Look how long it took the Steelers to find one after Bradshaw. The Cowboys just now think they have one after Aikman. THe Niners are still looking after Young. Miami and Buffalo are still looking.

Green Bay chose to use a 1st round pick on a QB when they already had Brett Favre (new coach coming in, wanted his own guy, and thought Favre was retiring).

Cleveland is STILL looking. These are teams that have had a TON of high round draft picks over the years. Before Brees, the Chargers had very average QBs, and how was their team?

The Cutler move will be looked upon as one of the VERY VERY VERY worst moves in Franchise history. It has a domino effect on everything around it.

Cugel
12-11-2010, 01:44 PM
The Cutler trade will always be a topic for a number of years. I said it then, and I'll say it now..... that trade could set this team back a decade.

Not only did we trade the most talented QB we've had since Elway.. but we have used a TON of picks, since, to try and replace that talent. Teams draft for years and years and years before they finally have a chance to get the QB that they need to move up. Look how long it took the Steelers to find one after Bradshaw. The Cowboys just now think they have one after Aikman. THe Niners are still looking after Young. Miami and Buffalo are still looking.

Green Bay chose to use a 1st round pick on a QB when they already had Brett Favre (new coach coming in, wanted his own guy, and thought Favre was retiring).

Cleveland is STILL looking. These are teams that have had a TON of high round draft picks over the years. Before Brees, the Chargers had very average QBs, and how was their team?

The Cutler move will be looked upon as one of the VERY VERY VERY worst moves in Franchise history. It has a domino effect on everything around it.

I went back and deleted my previous post because yours says it so much better. Not only did McDaniels screw up in trading Cutler (because the QBs he got instead were WORSE), but he also completely WASTED the draft picks he got as well.

It was just horrible all around.

1. Throw away franchise QB and get Orton.

2. Fail to get the most picks for the trade because you want Orton. Fail even to ALLOW the Jets and Redskins to try and outbid each other for Cutler when they are chomping at the bit to top the other in the Cutler sweepstakes.

3. Waste all the draft picks you get for Cutler, thus multiplying the fiasco into a total disaster.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_QjuzUIuGxF4/TIlJKXg2yPI/AAAAAAAAAmM/5zqNoIBYeMo/s1600/titanic3.jpg

Lonestar
12-11-2010, 02:42 PM
B.S. highlighted in Yellow. :coffee:

Teams make a commitment to their starting QB to make that guy the franchise QB or else they trade them. Period. Starting QBs make too much money to hang around if the coach doesn't believe in them.

What McDaniels was telling Cutler was "I'm STILL going to trade you just as soon as I can."

It was all part of McDaniels arrogance and anger management issues. The deal blew up in McIdiot's face because he thought Belicheck would have to agree to the trade -- and he didn't.

So, there's McMoron with egg on his face and Cutler wants an explanation.

Well, the explanation is: "I screwed up! I thought I could ship you off for Matt Cassel and now I'm stuck with you and the fans are mad at me. So, it's obviously YOUR fault for making me look bad."

That's a sign of a serious personality defect and anger management issues.

All he had to do wast admit the truth and patch things up and move forward. He couldn't do that. Instead he was FORCED into a meeting during which he delivered a 20 minute monologue where he basically:

1. Repeated the same lying cover-up he told over and over again.

2. Said he regretted NOTHING.

3. Said he'd do it again in a heart-beat.

4. Said that Cutler's position with the team was insecure.

Since Cutler had around 20 teams that wanted him to be their starting QB and at least 10 that were willing to trade high round draft picks for him, and 3 or 4 that were willing to engage in a BIDDING WAR for the right to land him (including the Jets and a Redskins team notorious for over-paying for players), WHY should he tolerate that kind of crap?

Only a complete IDIOT would sit there and say: "OK, I'll just sit here and twist slowly in the wind and wait for the axe."

He demanded a trade. He was RIGHT to do so.

And by NOW all the Cutler haters have to admit, McDaniels was FLAT WRONG about this deal JUST as he was about EVERYTHING HE DID! You haven't got a LEG to stand on in defending McDaniels at this point! He's proven over and over that his judgment is pure crap.

His record is undeniable proof that he SCREWED UP! Orton's record is undeniable proof that he SCREWED UP!

So, pull your head out of the sand or wherever and take a look at the RECORD: 5-17 over the last 22 games. Period. :coffee:


Just as you think I'm wrong I believe you are.

We all know that jay has enourmous talent potential, but what has been proven over the years it is so far just potential.

he has been a head case from almost day one, he has not taken care of him self at least while in DEN.

I suspect that Josh laid down the facts when he got here that he wanted to work with him but it would be his way a controlled passing game no more going for the kill shot when they are double or more covered and taking the shot to the open receiver.

When Josh got less than hey that is a great idea you can make me a better Qb .. ill bet even money that put the idea in Joshes head that he was going to have issues with him.

What would you h=rather have on your team a head case qb that is going to fight you every chance he gets while trying to teach him a new very complicated scheme as well as fixing his throwing flaw (mechanics)..

Or a guy that stepped in with ZERO starting experience either in college or the pros and did extremely well that already knows the playbook day one.

Not a hard decision is it. IF you are not fanatically obsessed with the former.

so lets just agree to disagree.

Tned
12-11-2010, 03:58 PM
Just as you think I'm wrong I believe you are.

We all know that jay has enourmous talent potential, but what has been proven over the years it is so far just potential.

he has been a head case from almost day one, he has not taken care of him self at least while in DEN.

I suspect that Josh laid down the facts when he got here that he wanted to work with him but it would be his way a controlled passing game no more going for the kill shot when they are double or more covered and taking the shot to the open receiver.

When Josh got less than hey that is a great idea you can make me a better Qb .. ill bet even money that put the idea in Joshes head that he was going to have issues with him.

What would you h=rather have on your team a head case qb that is going to fight you every chance he gets while trying to teach him a new very complicated scheme as well as fixing his throwing flaw (mechanics)..

Or a guy that stepped in with ZERO starting experience either in college or the pros and did extremely well that already knows the playbook day one.

Not a hard decision is it. IF you are not fanatically obsessed with the former.

so lets just agree to disagree.

First, there is zero evidence to support your theory. That's on par with "Hillis hit on McDaniels wife". You have simply concocted a possible scenario, that supports your dislike of Jay Cutler.

As to controlled passing game and double/triple coverage, I take it you haven't been able to get many Denver games, since you haven't seen Orton routinely throwing into double or triple coverage in the controlled passing game.

There are many areas where Cutler deserves criticism, including his reported drinking problems, but simply making stuff up can't be taken serious.

WARHORSE
12-11-2010, 03:59 PM
Er......I thought it was Bowlen who ordered Cutler be traded?


Yeah. Im sure about it.

Not gonna be a McD apologist, but those are the facts.

Lonestar
12-11-2010, 04:12 PM
First, there is zero evidence to support your theory. That's on par with "Hillis hit on McDaniels wife". You have simply concocted a possible scenario, that supports your dislike of Jay Cutler.

As to controlled passing game and double/triple coverage, I take it you haven't been able to get many Denver games, since you haven't seen Orton routinely throwing into double or triple coverage in the controlled passing game.

There are many areas where Cutler deserves criticism, including his reported drinking problems, but simply making stuff up can't be taken serious.

Your correct I have only seen a few games that I could tape and rewatch.

I guess the key to Orton doing it is his WR are catching the ball and cutlers were not and are NOT.

Your perceived thought of my disliking jay is not totally on the mark. While he was starting I supported him.DID not love him, But once he whined his way out of DEN well then I guess I'll agree I do not understand the love for him here.

We all know that him and Josh would have been at each others throat.

Not sure what your talking about making stuff up. comes from.. maybe you can explain but I'll be off for a few days as mama will be in town unexpectedly .

see y'all

Lonestar
12-11-2010, 04:13 PM
Er......I thought it was Bowlen who ordered Cutler be traded?


Yeah. Im sure about it.

Not gonna be a McD apologist, but those are the facts.
:salute:
conveniently overlooked by the cutler fans.

Dzone
12-11-2010, 04:22 PM
I thoroughly enjoy watching Cutler play for Chicago. It sucks that he isnt our QB anymore. I was a Cutler critic but now that I know what a jackass Mcdaniels is, I can now understand Cutlers point of view when it all went down.

Tned
12-11-2010, 04:26 PM
Er......I thought it was Bowlen who ordered Cutler be traded?


Yeah. Im sure about it.

Not gonna be a McD apologist, but those are the facts.


:salute:
conveniently overlooked by the cutler fans.

To attempt to play the "McDaniels did nothing wrong, Cutler without provocation forced Bowlen to trade him" card is so ludicrous it doesn't warrant any further response than this.


Your correct I have only seen a few games that I could tape and rewatch.

I guess the key to Orton doing it is his WR are catching the ball and cutlers were not and are NOT.

Your perceived thought of my disliking jay is not totally on the mark. While he was starting I supported him.DID not love him, But once he whined his way out of DEN well then I guess I'll agree I do not understand the love for him here.

We all know that him and Josh would have been at each others throat.

Not sure what your talking about making stuff up. comes from.. maybe you can explain but I'll be off for a few days as mama will be in town unexpectedly .

see y'all

Well, it's convenient to hop off after posting fabricated facts. There is no facts to justify your 'theories' (word used very loosely) about how Cutler wanted out because he was told that the QB spot would be an open competition, or any of the other stuff you made up.

frauschieze
12-11-2010, 06:17 PM
Just as you think I'm wrong I believe you are.

We all know that jay has enourmous talent potential, but what has been proven over the years it is so far just potential.

he has been a head case from almost day one, he has not taken care of him self at least while in DEN.

I suspect that Josh laid down the facts when he got here that he wanted to work with him but it would be his way a controlled passing game no more going for the kill shot when they are double or more covered and taking the shot to the open receiver.

When Josh got less than hey that is a great idea you can make me a better Qb .. ill bet even money that put the idea in Joshes head that he was going to have issues with him.

What would you h=rather have on your team a head case qb that is going to fight you every chance he gets while trying to teach him a new very complicated scheme as well as fixing his throwing flaw (mechanics)..

Or a guy that stepped in with ZERO starting experience either in college or the pros and did extremely well that already knows the playbook day one.

Not a hard decision is it. IF you are not fanatically obsessed with the former.

so lets just agree to disagree.

Stuff in yellow is all made up with no factual basis, as supported by words in red.

The second red bit.....well, that is COMPLETELY made up as Cutler wasn't even around for a mini-camp under McD. There is no indication that he would have fought with McD on anything on the field.

Before you start accusing me of being a Cutler lover, I've got enough second and third hand proof on Cutler's drinking problem to be perfectly happy without him here in Denver. There's a good reason why he played better on the road.

But making things up to justify his departure? It's unnecessary and it really makes you seem illogical, especially when you argue it.

Lonestar
12-11-2010, 06:40 PM
Originally Posted by Lonestar View Post
Just as you think I'm wrong I believe you are.

We all know that jay has enourmous talent potential, but what has been proven over the years it is so far just potential.

he has been a head case from almost day one, he has not taken care of him self at least while in DEN.

I suspect that Josh laid down the facts when he got here that he wanted to work with him but it would be his way a controlled passing game no more going for the kill shot when they are double or more covered and taking the shot to the open receiver.

When Josh got less than hey that is a great idea you can make me a better Qb .. ill bet even money that put the idea in Joshes head that he was going to have issues with him.

What would you rather have on your team a head case qb that is going to fight you every chance he gets while trying to teach him a new very complicated scheme as well as fixing his throwing flaw (mechanics)..

Or a guy that stepped in with ZERO starting experience either in college or the pros and did extremely well that already knows the playbook day one.

Not a hard decision is it. IF you are not fanatically obsessed with the former.

so lets just agree to disagree.


Stuff in yellow is all made up with no factual basis, as supported by words in red.

The second red bit.....well, that is COMPLETELY made up as Cutler wasn't even around for a mini-camp until McD. There is no indication that he would have fought with McD on anything on the field.

Before you start accusing me of being a Cutler lover, I've got enough second and third hand proof on Cutler's drinking problem to be perfectly happy without him here in Denver. There's a good reason why he played better on the road.

But making things up to justify his departure? It's unnecessary and it really makes you seem illogical, especially when you argue it.

Not making things up when I said I suspect, that means it is a logical thing to do when they were together face to face. I know that I would have done so in an employee meeting when they had their first set down right after josh arrived.

Now I do not know for sure they talked about it But If I were jay and was concerned on what I'd be doing and what the new scheme was I'd be asking questions. Now I do not know how long they had together but seem to recall after wards Josh had said they talked and they went over the playbook and jay was given one to study.

I could be wrong there but I suspect I'm pretty close to knowing what happened. I know in the years that I was in magaement each time I was transferred inot a location I had a set down with everyone one on one after a general intro meeting usually conducted with my boss to let them know who I was.

In those meetings almost every time there were policy questions that I'd answer.
I know that some times was forewarned by my zone/regional manager or VP that there were problem kids I'd review their file before doing the one on one.


Maybe genreal business conducts their transitsions differnt thatn sports do but I'd doubt it.


as for the red stuff I do not see anywhere that I stated he was in mini camp together. IIRC he never participated in any otas or mini camps, that was a bone of contention also.

I did imply that jay would have fought him over the controlled passing game if that was what you were getting at. I think we can all agree that jay liked to do things his way and is/was very hotheaded. Which we all know would not have been good under Josh.

Maybe I'm just not seeing it but I do not.

frauschieze
12-11-2010, 06:46 PM
You're just drawing conclusions based on scenarios you created and assumptions you made, Jr. That's all anyone's trying to say.

Lonestar
12-11-2010, 06:53 PM
You're just drawing conclusions based on scenarios you created and assumptions you made, Jr. That's all anyone's trying to say.

most likely scenarios IMHO .

Who here has not reported to a new department in a company and not had a set down with one of the bosses or supervisor>

conversely how many managers or supervisor have not talked to each person your responsible for when assuming a new position?

It is a perfectly logical conclusion IMO.

I did for Nye on 40 years in various positions in every company I worked for not to mention each new Military group I reported to.

Like I said maybe it is different in the sports world..

But I'll bet BIG money that the two sat down and talked some time before the combine.

Ravage!!!
12-11-2010, 06:55 PM
theories have some kind of logic basis behind them, these are just fabrications from imagination.

Ravage!!!
12-11-2010, 06:58 PM
But I'll bet BIG money that the two sat down and talked some time before the combine.

Its already a KNOWN fact that they didn't. Its not hard for this to be recorded. Its not hard to kjnow that the two never did meet. This is pure fabrication on your part, based on nothing but your imagination filling in blanks to make a happy lil story for yourself. There is NOTHING behind this to support ANY of your allegations.

I hope you don't bet BIG money on many things using this same set of criteria.

Tned
12-11-2010, 06:59 PM
most likely scenarios IMHO .

Completely made up scenarios, with nothing but your 'management experience' and imagination to support. Your experience in corporate America gives you no insight into what happened behind closed doors in Dove Valley.

frauschieze
12-11-2010, 07:00 PM
most likely scenarios IMHO .

Who here has not reported to a new department in a company and not had a set down with one of the bosses or supervisor>

conversely how many managers or supervisor have not talked to each person your responsible for when assuming a new position?

It is a perfectly logical conclusion IMO.

I did for Nye on 40 years in various positions in every company I worked for not to mention each new Military group I reported to.

Like I said maybe it is different in the sports world..

But I'll bet BIG money that the two sat down and talked some time before the combine.

Yes, they had a short phone conversation at the start. That was publicized.

But it was also publicized that that conversation went very well and both sides reported they were excited to work with the other when it was time to get started.

That's in writing.

What of your scenario, where Cutler was an ass who wouldn't take correction, is in writing?

turftoad
12-11-2010, 07:06 PM
Not making things up when I said I suspect, that means it is a logical thing to do when they were together face to face. I know that I would have done so in an employee meeting when they had their first set down right after josh arrived.

Now I do not know for sure they talked about it But If I were jay and was concerned on what I'd be doing and what the new scheme was I'd be asking questions. Now I do not know how long they had together but seem to recall after wards Josh had said they talked and they went over the playbook and jay was given one to study.

I could be wrong there but I suspect I'm pretty close to knowing what happened. I know in the years that I was in magaement each time I was transferred inot a location I had a set down with everyone one on one after a general intro meeting usually conducted with my boss to let them know who I was.

In those meetings almost every time there were policy questions that I'd answer.
I know that some times was forewarned by my zone/regional manager or VP that there were problem kids I'd review their file before doing the one on one.


Maybe genreal business conducts their transitsions differnt thatn sports do but I'd doubt it.


as for the red stuff I do not see anywhere that I stated he was in mini camp together. IIRC he never participated in any otas or mini camps, that was a bone of contention also.

I did imply that jay would have fought him over the controlled passing game if that was what you were getting at. I think we can all agree that jay liked to do things his way and is/was very hotheaded. Which we all know would not have been good under Josh.

Maybe I'm just not seeing it but I do not.

I would SUSPECT that any other coach comming into the situation in Denver would have been ECSTATIC to come into an organization that had Cutler, Marshall, Hillis, Scheffler etc..... and not try to piss everyone off with egomania.

The next coach? Not so much. Thats what I SUSPECT.

Lonestar
12-11-2010, 07:14 PM
Completely made up scenarios, with nothing but your 'management experience' and imagination to support. Your experience in corporate America gives you no insight into what happened behind closed doors in Dove Valley.


Yes your correct but let me ask you have you ever been promoted or transferred into a pretty significant position with out having a sit down with your next in command?

It is not just corporate America that does this..

Each Coach I have ever played for has set down with me to talk about goals, and what his rules are to follow.

When applying at private school or moving to a new church much the same thing.

I find it impossible to believe that the Head coach that will be calling in the plays to this kid would not have a set down with him and allow interaction between the two of them sometime before the combine.

I just use that time line as your the one that insists that this was when Josh started asking questions about other QB's or took calls or chats then.

Whether it was or was not means nothing to me.

I just want to know if you were josh would you want to talk about the future and explain the play book to the guy that would be the most important guy on the team in that respect.

IF you would have what makes you think that the two of them did not talk about it?

Now we know from pressers that the two of them talked . Why would these things not come out in those conversations?

Tned
12-11-2010, 07:15 PM
I would SUSPECT that any other coach comming into the situation in Denver would have been ECSTATIC to come into an organization that had Cutler, Marshall, Hillis, Scheffler etc..... and not try to piss everyone off with egomania.

The next coach? Not so much. Thats what I SUSPECT.

Based on my decades in management, and seeing interaction between employees, I think the only conclusion is that McDaniels grabbed Cutler's junk and was pissed off when Cutler rejected him. Acting like a spurned lover, he first publicly discredited him and then traded him.

It's really the only logical conclusion and anyone with management experience can see it as such.

turftoad
12-11-2010, 07:18 PM
Yes your correct but let me ask you have you ever been promoted or transferred into a pretty significant position with out having a sit down with your next in command?

It is not just corporate America that does this..

Each Coach I have ever played for has set down with me to talk about goals, and what his rules are to follow.

When applying at private school or moving to a new church much the same thing.

I find it impossible to believe that the Head coach that will be calling in the plays to this kid would not have a set down with him and allow interaction between the two of them sometime before the combine.

I just use that time line as your the one that insists that this was when Josh started asking questions about other QB's or took calls or chats then.

Whether it was or was not means nothing to me.

I just want to know if you were josh would you want to talk about the future and explain the play book to the guy that would be the most important guy on the team in that respect.

IF you would have what makes you think that the two of them did not talk about it?

Now we know from pressers that the two of them talked . Why would these things not come out in those conversations?

If I was Josh (which thank the lord I am not) I wouldn't have tried to trade for Cassell behind Jays back then lie about it. That would piss me off too. Then again, that was just the start of the lying and cheating.

I am SOOOO glad that douch bag is gone.

Lonestar
12-11-2010, 07:22 PM
I would SUSPECT that any other coach comming into the situation in Denver would have been ECSTATIC to come into an organization that had Cutler, Marshall, Hillis, Scheffler etc..... and not try to piss everyone off with egomania.

The next coach? Not so much. Thats what I SUSPECT.

And how do you know he did not?

I seem to remember his intro to the Denver press about him be excited to be coming to DEN and having those players here.

I think we all know that jay is a hothead he has demoed that on many occasions on the sideline and on the field even when Mike was coach.

Anyone want to bet that he thought he was a primadonna after having smoke blown up his skirt the past few years.

Do you suspect that money came up in those sit downs. It was a strong rumor that the terrific trio had been promised new contracts in the spring prior to their final contract year.

Lots of thing could have set off bad feeling besides Josh being an ego maniac as many of you believe.


any way I'm not going to debate this anymore not worth my time nor will it changes anyone's minds, we can agree to disagree. or maybe some can't.

Not my worries.

Tned
12-11-2010, 07:24 PM
Yes your correct but let me ask you have you ever been promoted or transferred into a pretty significant position with out having a sit down with your next in command?

It is not just corporate America that does this..

Each Coach I have ever played for has set down with me to talk about goals, and what his rules are to follow.

When applying at private school or moving to a new church much the same thing.

I find it impossible to believe that the Head coach that will be calling in the plays to this kid would not have a set down with him and allow interaction between the two of them sometime before the combine.

I just use that time line as your the one that insists that this was when Josh started asking questions about other QB's or took calls or chats then.

Whether it was or was not means nothing to me.

I just want to know if you were josh would you want to talk about the future and explain the play book to the guy that would be the most important guy on the team in that respect.

IF you would have what makes you think that the two of them did not talk about it?

Now we know from pressers that the two of them talked . Why would these things not come out in those conversations?

Whether or not it is likely that they met or talked about certain things does NOT in any way support your made up conclusions -- Cutler was told their would be a QB competition and was afraid of such, Cutler was told there would be a controlled passing game and didn't like it, etc.

This is standard logical fallacy stuff. You are throwing out one or two items that 'might' be true, and trying to piggy back a whole load of supposition and/or fabrications and trying to legitimize that supposition and fabrication by pointing to the few 'likely' events you sprinkle in.

As to time lines and what I 'insist', I only rely on what is reported fact. In the case of Josh talking about trading for Cassel, he says he was approached by two teams (I believe it was two) at the combine.

Tned
12-11-2010, 07:26 PM
And how do you know he did not?

I seem to remember his intro to the Denver press about him be excited to be coming to DEN and having those players here.

I think we all know that jay is a hothead he has demoed that on many occasions on the sideline and on the field even when Mike was coach.

Anyone want to bet that he thought he was a primadonna after having smoke blown up his skirt the past few years.

Do you suspect that money came up in those sit downs. It was a strong rumor that the terrific trio had been promised new contracts in the spring prior to their final contract year.

Lots of thing could have set off bad feeling besides Josh being an ego maniac as many of you believe.


any way I'm not going to debate this anymore not worth my time nor will it changes anyone's minds, we can agree to disagree. or maybe some can't.

Not my worries.

You're the one that keeps fabricating make believe scenarios and selling them as "what happened". I'm sure if you stop doing so, this line of discussion will die.

turftoad
12-11-2010, 07:29 PM
And how do you know he did not?



Because he's a lier and a cheater. He proved that over and over. Bowlen realized it and so did Ellis.
I'm glad we don't have to deal with his shit anymore, you should be too. Oh, and read my sig, it's just one mans opinion but a true one.

arapaho2
12-11-2010, 09:56 PM
man lonestars getting beat down worse than the mcd led broncos:lol:

liveing in a fantasy world kinda helps that along i suppose

atwater27
12-12-2010, 01:04 AM
yep all $7,000,000.00. who has the last laugh?

face it cutler could not handle being told the best QB or for that matter player would play (something that everyone else understood) or that if there was a chance to UPGRADE the team NO one was exempt 9Something that every player understands).

Yep cutler may get to the playoffs But then he may choke again, like he did in 08 when we had a three game lead with three to go. And in the final game River bitch slapped him. :salute:

Couldn't have choked worse than McDaniels.

atwater27
12-12-2010, 01:07 AM
I suspect that Josh laid down the facts when he got here that he wanted to work with him but it would be his way a controlled passing game no more going for the kill shot when they are double or more covered and taking the shot to the open receiver.

When Josh got less than hey that is a great idea you can make me a better Qb .. ill bet even money that put the idea in Joshes head that he was going to have issues with him.

.

Please. It's more likely Josh didn't even say Hi to the guy when they first met. He was too busy on the phone with the Pats trying to get Cassell up in here.:laugh:

turftoad
12-12-2010, 01:20 AM
yep all $7,000,000.00. who has the last laugh?

face it cutler could not handle being told the best QB or for that matter player would play (something that everyone else understood) or that if there was a chance to UPGRADE the team NO one was exempt 9Something that every player understands).



What fantasy land are you living in again??? How young was Cutler when he was here?? He's a great talent, period, like it or not. He's led a not great Bears team to the division lead and a possible playoff spot. How much denial can one person (you have)? He's playing great with no "O" line or #1 WR. In a few years, he's gonna be a premier QB with some experience under his belt. But no, McDfired got rid of him. Could have been a premier QB here for years and years to come and will be, just not for us. Whats to like about that??

turftoad
12-12-2010, 01:28 AM
Couldn't have choked worse than McDaniels.

Who is McDaniels??? :confused:

Oh.... is that the guy who's known for totally dismantling an NFL franchise in record time?? :confused:

I think I know of whom you speak. :salute:

turftoad
12-12-2010, 01:31 AM
What fantasy land are you living in again??? How young was Cutler when he was here?? He's a great talent, period, like it or not. He's led a not great Bears team to the division lead and a possible playoff spot. How much denial can one person (you have)? He's playing great with no "O" line or #1 WR. In a few years, he's gonna be a premier QB with some experience under his belt. But no, McDfired got rid of him. Could have been a premier QB here for years and years to come and will be, just not for us. Whats to like about that??

In the mean time, MCd led us to a 3-whatever record, lied about shit and got fired.

LMFAO... and people still support that Richard Noggin.

Canmore
12-12-2010, 01:33 AM
Who is McDaniels??? :confused:

Oh.... is that the gut who's know for totally dismantling an NFL franchise in record time?? :confused:

I think I know of whom you speak. :salute:

At least we got the record.:D

Now we need to set a record for reassembling one.

TXBRONC
12-12-2010, 09:17 AM
Er......I thought it was Bowlen who ordered Cutler be traded?


Yeah. Im sure about it.

Not gonna be a McD apologist, but those are the facts.

No it was McDaniels call and Bowlen supported it.

Ravage!!!
12-12-2010, 09:25 AM
No it was McDaniels call and Bowlen supported it.

or went along with it.... not sure how much support it had.

TXBRONC
12-12-2010, 09:38 AM
or went along with it.... not sure how much support it had.

You don't necessarily have to like a decision to support one. Bowlen may not have liked it but unfortunately he didn't stop it when he could have or maybe should have.

Dreadnought
12-12-2010, 10:34 AM
You don't necessarily have to like a decision to support one. Bowlen may not have liked it but unfortunately he didn't stop it when could have maybe should have.

He really had no choice. At that time he had just been thoroughly boxed in by his new Coach, and he didn't dare castrate him by publicly by second guessing his foolishness, whatever he may or may not have thought privately.

NightTrainLayne
12-12-2010, 11:02 AM
He really had no choice. At that time he had just been thoroughly boxed in by his new Coach, and he didn't dare castrate him by publicly by second guessing his foolishness, whatever he may or may not have thought privately.

Most of the reports don't support this. Every report states quite simply that Bowlen had tried to reach Cutler and he would not return Bowlen's phone call. Bowlen got upset, gave him a deadline ultimatum, Cutler didn't call back, and Bowlen ordered him to be traded.

Did McD open that can of worms? Yes. Did McD handle it poorly? Yes. Without McD putting his foot in it would Cutler still be here? Probably.

But, had Bowlen not said to trade him because he didn't return Bowlen's call, it's likely he would be here too. McD created a mess, but Bowlen could have just as easily told him that Cutler was off limits. In fact, I surmise that Bowlen was trying to get ahold of Cutler to apologize and bring him back in to work with McD (why else was he calling him?) and got supremely pissed off when Cutler wouldn't return his call. That last sentence is conjecture, but I can't for the life of me figure out what else Bowlen could have been trying to call him about at that point.

In other words, both guys together (McD and Bowlen) deserve responsibility for that.

I have a ton of respect for Pat Bowlen. More than a lot of folks I see post here. Over the past 30 years he has proven himself one of the best owners in the league, someone devoted to high-quality coaching staffs, and giving those staffs what they need to succeed.

He's also proven that he won't stick with a sub-par coach for very long, which is a necessary ingredient. However, that doesn't mean that he is immune to any criticism.

If you want to pin the blame on someone for dismantling the Broncos of 2008, it has to land squarely on the shoulders of Pat Bowlen. He not only changed coaching staffs, but gave this talented, but super-young, inexperienced coach all the power over staff and roster. But beyond that, Mr. Bowlen himself traded away Cutler. Is that was McD wanted? Most likely, but it was still Bowlen that not only gave it his blessing but beyond that issued an order for it to be done because he felt slighted.

My confidence in Mr. Bowlen has been shaken beyond anything I would have ever imagined. However, he has earned enough trust from me to give him at least one more chance to get it right, and I'm confident that he will.

Ravage!!!
12-12-2010, 11:20 AM
Most of the reports don't support this. Every report states quite simply that Bowlen had tried to reach Cutler and he would not return Bowlen's phone call. Bowlen got upset, gave him a deadline ultimatum, Cutler didn't call back, and Bowlen ordered him to be traded.

Not every report. Rick Reilly has written that he has THREE sources that said Cutler did call back... more than once. Now, doesn't matter what you think of Reilly's writing, but the honest truth is, he most probably would NOT risk his career simply making that up.


Rick Reilly


http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=4429435

Too Short For A Column: 08/28/09

The Denver Broncos' Pat Bowlen used to be one of the cleverest owners in sports. But now he's being undercut by an insidious opponent -- himself.

...

Bowlen still insists Jay Cutler never called him back during McJay Gate this winter, which left him "no choice" but to trade a dead-lock Pro Bowl 26-year-old quarterback for Kyle Orton and draft choices.

But I've now got it from three different sources -- who choose to remain unidentified -- that Cutler did call Bowlen back.

"Jay called him twice," said one source. "It's unbelievable it came to this."

...



So lets just assume, for a moment, and say that Cutler did call Bowlen back. Then he never hears from Bowlen again...as he said. Lets then say that now Cutler continues to hear reports that "he never has called Bowlen back." Now the only thing Cutler can assume, is that both the coach and the owner are BOTH lying, and saying that neither want him in Denver. Would that make you upset?

Considering what we've learned from McDaniels since, I would say that the 20 minute meeting that went on between Cutler and McD went closer to Cutler's interpretation of the events, than not.

""

BroncoJoe
12-12-2010, 11:25 AM
It's been nearly two years. Can we PLEASE stop talking about the Cutler trade? No one will EVER know exactly what went down.

tia.

Ravage!!!
12-12-2010, 11:29 AM
It's been nearly two years. Can we PLEASE stop talking about the Cutler trade? No one will EVER know exactly what went down.

tia.

That single trade, will be the most significant trade for this franchise in the next 10 years. THe state of our team, as it is RIGHT now.. is encompassed in that trade. Not only was it the marking of the downfall, nearly every move since then has been directly effected by that trade.

That trade won't go away any time soon.

BroncoJoe
12-12-2010, 11:33 AM
It's been talked about ad-nauseam. As to your comment about "the next 10 years", we'll have to revisit in 2020.

Tned
12-12-2010, 11:40 AM
That single trade, will be the most significant trade for this franchise in the next 10 years. THe state of our team, as it is RIGHT now.. is encompassed in that trade. Not only was it the marking of the downfall, nearly every move since then has been directly effected by that trade.

That trade won't go away any time soon.

It won't be the single biggest trade if Tebow is very, very successful and sooner rather than later. If that happens, and if might be a VERY big "if", then even as bad as these past two seasons have been, people will be talking about how we have Tebow, BECAUSE of the Cutler trade.

Ok, as I type this, I find that I just made your point in the other direction. Even if what I says comes true, then it still is the most significant trade for the franchise, because of the domino-effect of moves that followed.

****, we're going to be talking about this for a long time. I better get out of bed and make a bloody Mary.

BroncoJoe
12-12-2010, 11:42 AM
It won't be the single biggest trade if Tebow is very, very successful and sooner rather than later. If that happens, and if might be a VERY big "if", then even as bad as these past two seasons have been, people will be talking about how we have Tebow, BECAUSE of the Cutler trade.

Ok, as I type this, I find that I just made your point in the other direction. Even if what I says comes true, then it still is the most significant trade for the franchise, because of the domino-effect of moves that followed.

****, we're going to be talking about this for a long time. I better get out of bed and make a bloody Mary.

It just get's VERY old rehashing the same old, tired arguments from both sides of the fence.

Ravage!!!
12-12-2010, 11:50 AM
It won't be the single biggest trade if Tebow is very, very successful and sooner rather than later. If that happens, and if might be a VERY big "if", then even as bad as these past two seasons have been, people will be talking about how we have Tebow, BECAUSE of the Cutler trade.

Ok, as I type this, I find that I just made your point in the other direction. Even if what I says comes true, then it still is the most significant trade for the franchise, because of the domino-effect of moves that followed.

****, we're going to be talking about this for a long time. I better get out of bed and make a bloody Mary.

:lol: Exactly. Not only is it effecting the seasons now, its effected all the picks we've used to replace him, and then all the picks we COULD have been using on other positions instead of the ones we spent to replace. Its a domino effect that, as of right now, spirals in all directions for our team.

On that note...I TRULY.. truly.. hope that Tebow makes us look back and "thank" the situation for forcing us to take Tebow. If he becomes that good, I'll be ECSTATIC (surprised, but I love surprises)!

Tned
12-12-2010, 11:51 AM
It just get's VERY old rehashing the same old, tired arguments from both sides of the fence.

Agreed, nobody is going to change their position. Even those that flipped 180* on McDaniels and went from ardent supporter to saying he destroyed the franchise, in most cases aren't budging on their view that Cutler forced his way out of town (typically the general version of the McDaniels supporter), and clearly those that help the opinion that McDaniels forced Cutler out, aren't going to revisit that in light of how things went down with McDaniels and his firing.

So, every time this comes up, it will just be fans talking past each other. Obviously, I say this knowing I have been part of the problem in this regard.

BroncoJoe
12-12-2010, 12:02 PM
All I "know" is what the local sports reporters say here, who are all a lot closer to and more respected by the Broncos organization.

In short, it is widely agreed McDaniels made a mistake in (either initiating or accepting a phone call) thinking of trading Cutler. What is not widely publisized is how McD made every attempt to heal the wounds left by that single mistake. Cutler acted like a woman scorned.

Using Cutler in terms of a "woman scorned", you also have to take into consideration McD "considered" cheating on his woman, but didn't. Does anyone really believe that if he wanted the trade to happen that it wouldn't have? It is widely agreed that McD turned it down, but did consider it. From that point forward, it's all on Cutler.

It would be nice to see both sides here agree that both parties were at fault.

Tned
12-12-2010, 12:18 PM
All I "know" is what the local sports reporters say here, who are all a lot closer to and more respected by the Broncos organization.

In short, it is widely agreed McDaniels made a mistake in (either initiating or accepting a phone call) thinking of trading Cutler. What is not widely publisized is how McD made every attempt to heal the wounds left by that single mistake. Cutler acted like a woman scorned.

Using Cutler in terms of a "woman scorned", you also have to take into consideration McD "considered" cheating on his woman, but didn't. Does anyone really believe that if he wanted the trade to happen that it wouldn't have? It is widely agreed that McD turned it down, but did consider it. From that point forward, it's all on Cutler.

It would be nice to see both sides here agree that both parties were at fault.

See, now you just crossed from, "why are we still talking about it" into let's throw out one side and call it "widely agreed", which it isn't.

Even McDaniels admitted he was late to the game, not that he turned it down.

BroncoJoe
12-12-2010, 12:20 PM
See, now you just crossed from, "why are we still talking about it" into let's throw out one side and call it "widely agreed", which it isn't.

Even McDaniels admitted he was late to the game, not that he turned it down.

My "widely agreed" statement is based on what the local media, in particular the sports writers, have stated.

arapaho2
12-12-2010, 12:29 PM
My "widely agreed" statement is based on what the local media, in particular the sports writers, have stated.

Josh stating...he tried to trade Cutler but was late for the dance....came from the horses mouth...

GEM
12-12-2010, 12:34 PM
Agreed, nobody is going to change their position. Even those that flipped 180* on McDaniels and went from ardent supporter to saying he destroyed the franchise, in most cases aren't budging on their view that Cutler forced his way out of town (typically the general version of the McDaniels supporter), and clearly those that help the opinion that McDaniels forced Cutler out, aren't going to revisit that in light of how things went down with McDaniels and his firing.

So, every time this comes up, it will just be fans talking past each other. Obviously, I say this knowing I have been part of the problem in this regard.

Hey now....I didn't say he forced his way out of town. :P I know McD forced it. I have continually said I didn't like Cutler far before the issues with McD. He always came of as a whiny shit to me. I liked his talent, but couldn't stand seeing him on the sideline by himself with that stupid mopey look on his face.

Dreadnought
12-12-2010, 12:58 PM
Hey now....I didn't say he forced his way out of town. :P I know McD forced it. I have continually said I didn't like Cutler far before the issues with McD. He always came of as a whiny shit to me. I liked his talent, but couldn't stand seeing him on the sideline by himself with that stupid mopey look on his face.

See, and I kind of liked his lack of emotional histrionics. He came across to me as professional and able to overcome his mistakes. The Buffalo Bills had a QB named Joe Ferguson in the 70's, who I got watch (seemingly endlessly) as a teen. He was...OK...but like clockwork he'd "hang his head" first time he made a mistake. Then he'd be worse than useless and throw balls into the dirt or at DB's. The worst was a guy named Lamar Mchan, back in the 50's and 60's. He was a number one draft pick of the Cards who had so little confidence he was known to have benched himself over his coach's objection!

I don't like extreme emotional displays from grown men myself, but then one man's meat is another's poison as they say :D

Tned
12-12-2010, 01:51 PM
Hey now....I didn't say he forced his way out of town. :P I know McD forced it. I have continually said I didn't like Cutler far before the issues with McD. He always came of as a whiny shit to me. I liked his talent, but couldn't stand seeing him on the sideline by himself with that stupid mopey look on his face.


See, and I kind of liked his lack of emotional histrionics. He came across to me as professional and able to overcome his mistakes. The Buffalo Bills had a QB named Joe Ferguson in the 70's, who I got watch (seemingly endlessly) as a teen. He was...OK...but like clockwork he'd "hang his head" first time he made a mistake. Then he'd be worse than useless and throw balls into the dirt or at DB's. The worst was a guy named Lamar Mchan, back in the 50's and 60's. He was a number one draft pick of the Cards who had so little confidence he was known to have benched himself over his coach's objection!

I don't like extreme emotional displays from grown men myself, but then one man's meat is another's poison as they say :D

Wow, you are both so wrong. You just don't get it.

Ok, I'll admit, I don't know why you're wrong, or have an alternate view, but I'm confident that you're both just, well, you know, just wrong...

GEM
12-12-2010, 01:53 PM
As much as I hate Rivers...I love his enthusiasm.

Tned
12-12-2010, 01:59 PM
As much as I hate Rivers...I love his enthusiasm.

Get the rope, wood and matches -- time to burn this ____ at the stake for this comment!

SmilinAssasSin27
12-12-2010, 08:10 PM
Okay...back to the bet. I'm likely gonna lose it due to Rodgers' concussion, but step one of my basic point has been made w/ flying colors. Big game even vs a poor defense=3 turnovers for Jay.

Now let's be clear about sumthin, this is by no means me being a McD apologist. Apparently the dude is a flaming douche. So please don't paint me to be the "whatever makes me feel better" guy or someone who always has the coach's back. I simply agree w/ his assessment of Cutler. Not a winner. Not a smart football mind (even though he went to Vandy) and turns it over way too much...especially in big moments. Today supported that point. Cutler was "well on his way to the playoffs" in Denver a couple of years ago too...what happened?

SmilinAssasSin27
12-12-2010, 08:12 PM
As much as I hate Rivers...I love his enthusiasm.

It's kind of an odd senario. I hate Rivers because he was such a flaming a hole in regards to Cutler. Now it appears that maybe Rivers isn't quite the a-hole I thought him to be...but I still hate him anyways.

Cugel
12-12-2010, 08:37 PM
Most of the reports don't support this. Every report states quite simply that Bowlen had tried to reach Cutler and he would not return Bowlen's phone call. Bowlen got upset, gave him a deadline ultimatum, Cutler didn't call back, and Bowlen ordered him to be traded.

That's a true, if one sided view. Cutler claimed that he left messages for Bowlen, but Bowlen apparently never got them. I never found that plausible, nor did many other people. But, Pat's mental deterioration and disorganization may explain it. No way to know.


Did McD open that can of worms? Yes. Did McD handle it poorly? Yes. Without McD putting his foot in it would Cutler still be here? Probably.

Probably NOT actually. :coffee: McDaniels was CLEARLY trying to find a way to get rid of Cutler and would have engineered a trade prior to the draft. He was miffed that Cutler forced his hand, but at least it gave him an excuse to say that "it's all Cutler's fault."


But, had Bowlen not said to trade him because he didn't return Bowlen's call, it's likely he would be here too. McD created a mess, but Bowlen could have just as easily told him that Cutler was off limits.

He would have had to do that BEFORE he hired McDaniels and probably should have. It also probably never occurred to him that McDaniels would go out and immediately try and trade Cutler away. Bowlen insisted that NO TRADE was ever put to him.

That might be true. McDaniels might have wanted to have a done deal to present to Bowlen before telling him about it. Bowlen would not have dared fire him at that point, so McDaniels was on pretty secure ground.


In fact, I surmise that Bowlen was trying to get ahold of Cutler to apologize and bring him back in to work with McD (why else was he calling him?) and got supremely pissed off when Cutler wouldn't return his call. That last sentence is conjecture, but I can't for the life of me figure out what else Bowlen could have been trying to call him about at that point.

I seriously doubt it was to apologize at all. He simply wanted to clear up communications as things were spiraling out of control into a media war between Cutler and McDaniels. He might have wanted to find out Cutler's view of the meeting and formed his own opinion.

But, the bottom line is that Bowlen was in NO position to force a confrontation with his brand New head-coach and acting GM BEFORE the guy had even had a chance to start!

NO OWNER has ever hired a coach in the NFL, then got buyer's remorse and fired him before the season even started! So, McDaniels could demand the right to trade Cutler and Bowlen would HAVE to back him up no matter WHAT his opinion might be or look like a complete IDIOT for hiring this guy in the first place -- only to fatally undermine him right at the start!


In other words, both guys together (McD and Bowlen) deserve responsibility for that.

I have a ton of respect for Pat Bowlen. More than a lot of folks I see post here. Over the past 30 years he has proven himself one of the best owners in the league, someone devoted to high-quality coaching staffs, and giving those staffs what they need to succeed.

He's also proven that he won't stick with a sub-par coach for very long, which is a necessary ingredient. However, that doesn't mean that he is immune to any criticism.

True.


If you want to pin the blame on someone for dismantling the Broncos of 2008, it has to land squarely on the shoulders of Pat Bowlen. He not only changed coaching staffs, but gave this talented, but super-young, inexperienced coach all the power over staff and roster. But beyond that, Mr. Bowlen himself traded away Cutler. Is that was McD wanted? Most likely, but it was still Bowlen that not only gave it his blessing but beyond that issued an order for it to be done because he felt slighted.

The real problem was in not hiring a top flight GM to come in and take over all player personnel decisions. Pat wanted another Shanahan, when the entire rest of the world was certain that Shanahan's greatest failure was his drafting.

Ellis claims this sorta "just happened" when Xanders was promoted to GM and Jim Goodman left. However, WHY wasn't a real talent evaluator given the final say over player personnel? Pat should have insisted to Ellis that they go out and hire someone and keep the division of responsibility separate between coaching & GM.


My confidence in Mr. Bowlen has been shaken beyond anything I would have ever imagined. However, he has earned enough trust from me to give him at least one more chance to get it right, and I'm confident that he will.

Only if he now goes out and hires a top flight GM and gives him the final authority on all drafting and trades. Otherwise we will have another Al Davis on our hands. A senile old fool who just gets in the way and screws things up. :coffee:

TXBRONC
12-12-2010, 08:39 PM
He really had no choice. At that time he had just been thoroughly boxed in by his new Coach, and he didn't dare castrate him by publicly by second guessing his foolishness, whatever he may or may not have thought privately.

I understand that at juncture the guy even coached one game so Bowlen couldn't publicly embarrass his new head coach. I was thinking more along the lined privately.

Dreadnought
12-12-2010, 09:22 PM
Wow, you are both so wrong. You just don't get it.

Ok, I'll admit, I don't know why you're wrong, or have an alternate view, but I'm confident that you're both just, well, you know, just wrong...

No - YOU just don't get it! I know you spend all day pining for Red Miller to return, but it ain't happening! For one thing, he's 83. Anyways, he took us to one Superbowl, lost it, then tried to run Craig Morton out of town with Matt Robinson!

So stop with the hatin' already!

TXBRONC
12-12-2010, 09:25 PM
No - YOU just don't get it! I know you spend all day pining for Red Miller to return, but it ain't happening! For one thing, he's 83. Anyways, he took us to one Superbowl, lost it, then tried to run Craig Morton out of town with Matt Robinson!

So stop with the hatin' already!

I had a feeling Tned was still in the tank for Red. You would think after 30 plus years he would let it go. :tsk:

BeefStew25
12-12-2010, 09:25 PM
Dread, I once got completely wasted with Matt Robinson.

OrangeHorizon
12-12-2010, 09:27 PM
McDaniels ruined our franchise for years to come with all his stupid moves. I really hope we dont have to pay this schmuck for the remaining 2 years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt2_C9wLNjU

Dreadnought
12-12-2010, 09:34 PM
Dread, I once got completely wasted with Matt Robinson.

I watched him play in 1980, Beef. I think he was wasted then too

TXBRONC
12-12-2010, 09:37 PM
I watched him play in 1980, Beef. I think he was wasted then too

I wish you guys would not have brought up Robinson that was supressed memory I could live without.