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View Full Version : Mcd's playcalling cleary cost us the game



broncofaninfla
12-05-2010, 04:16 PM
The run was there and Orton was off yet Mcd kept calling pass plays for Orton. Mcd is an incompitent head coach. Before this game I would have been ok with bring in a real GM and keeping Mcd to just coach but I've lost all faith in him now. Let the kid learn his trade at the expense of some other team.

claymore
12-05-2010, 04:17 PM
The run was there and Orton was off yet Mcd kept calling pass plays for Orton. Mcd is an incompitent head coach. Before this game I would have been ok with bring in a real GM and keeping Mcd to just coach but I've lost all faith in him now. Let the kid learn his trade at the expense of some other team.

Ive never cared as much for another NFL team, but Ive never seen worse playcalling. Im sure there is, but Ive never winessed it or noticed.

Jake Klug
12-05-2010, 04:28 PM
The run was there and Orton was off yet Mcd kept calling pass plays for Orton. Mcd is an incompitent head coach. Before this game I would have been ok with bring in a real GM and keeping Mcd to just coach but I've lost all faith in him now. Let the kid learn his trade at the expense of some other team.

Thats what McDaniels is. When push comes to shove, he reverts back to what he really is...a pass happy offensive coordinator.

camdisco24
12-05-2010, 04:29 PM
The mix of Orton's god awful play and McD continuing to go to him lead to disaster.
Luckily KC was off today as well or the score could have been VERY lopsided.

BroncoNut
12-05-2010, 04:46 PM
The mix of Orton's god awful play and McD continuing to go to him lead to disaster.
Luckily KC was off today as well or the score could have been VERY lopsided.

KC WAS a bit off today, but several players had great games for the Broncos

jhildebrand
12-05-2010, 04:47 PM
Last week I made the comment to Topscribe that Orton only looks as accurate as his numbers represent BECAUSE of his WR's. Today it showed. We saw a ton of dirt balls and passes way off the mark! There were opportunities had the QB been able to hit a WR on the numbers that probably could have scored.

As to the OP. I was screaming the same thing all day. Down by 7 and this team is just flat, predicatble, and terrible. More importantly I think the playbook shrinks down to 1/2 a page.

The McD experiment needs to end.

BroncoStud
12-05-2010, 04:49 PM
KC did everything in their power to hand Denver the game. That's how bad Orton and McD were today.

rationalfan
12-05-2010, 04:50 PM
not sure why the playcalling is perceived as having been terrible. the receivers were open in the second half, orton kept shortballin them - including two longish passes to lloyd. remember, the "good" running plays also came from mcd.

more and more the problems of the second half of the season seem to be coming back to orton. he's not a good quarterback when the blitz is in his face. and he's not a good quarterback when the game's tight in the fourth quarter. it's tough to blame one player on the loss, but orton did a lot to help the broncos lose today.

broncofaninfla
12-05-2010, 04:52 PM
We'd be better off with a interim coach calling plays. Mcd lost us a winnable game.

Mike
12-05-2010, 04:54 PM
not sure why the playcalling is perceived as having been terrible. the receivers were open in the second half, orton kept shortballin them - including two longish passes to lloyd. remember, the "good" running plays also came from mcd.

more and more the problems of the second half of the season seem to be coming back to orton. he's not a good quarterback when the blitz is in his face. and he's not a good quarterback when the game's tight in the fourth quarter. it's tough to blame one player on the loss, but orton did a lot to help the broncos lose today.

Yeah, going away from a RB who is gashing the other team and putting the ball into the hands of a QB who routinely shits the bed is great playcalling. :beer:

jhildebrand
12-05-2010, 04:54 PM
the receivers were open in the second half

Except Orton kept throwing to the WR who was double or triple covered. :rolleyes:

broncofaninfla
12-05-2010, 04:57 PM
not sure why the playcalling is perceived as having been terrible. the receivers were open in the second half, orton kept shortballin them - including two longish passes to lloyd. remember, the "good" running plays also came from mcd.

more and more the problems of the second half of the season seem to be coming back to orton. he's not a good quarterback when the blitz is in his face. and he's not a good quarterback when the game's tight in the fourth quarter. it's tough to blame one player on the loss, but orton did a lot to help the broncos lose today.

Because Orton was having a horrible game and yet Mcd kept calling passing plays. If we pound the ball, we win this game.

rationalfan
12-05-2010, 05:05 PM
Because Orton was having a horrible game and yet Mcd kept calling passing plays. If we pound the ball, we win this game.

you can't just run the ball the entire game or half. that's like asking the defense not to think.

besides, so many of today's successful running games came from passing formations. they worked because the defense had to respect the dual threat (though, not sure why they respected it so much today).

jhildebrand
12-05-2010, 05:08 PM
you can't just run the ball the entire game or half. that's like asking the defense not to think.

besides, so many of today's successful running games came from passing formations. they worked because the defense had to respect the dual threat (though, not sure why they respected it so much today).

You win on the road in the NFL running the ball. You can run it on first down. Do you know how many times McDaniels ran the ball on 1st down in the second half? :confused:

underrated29
12-05-2010, 05:09 PM
not sure why the playcalling is perceived as having been terrible. the receivers were open in the second half, orton kept shortballin them - including two longish passes to lloyd. remember, the "good" running plays also came from mcd.

more and more the problems of the second half of the season seem to be coming back to orton. he's not a good quarterback when the blitz is in his face. and he's not a good quarterback when the game's tight in the fourth quarter. it's tough to blame one player on the loss, but orton did a lot to help the broncos lose today.



Yes, I was thiking this same thing. Orton had one of his worst days ever. What makes me pissed is we did not bench him...yeah- sometimes its just not your day. Today was not. He should have been pulled! That is on Josh all the way.

The play calling was predictable at the beginning and at the end. Once we started running plays were not predictable, and I liked the pass plays we called. As he said above^ guys were open.

W.I.D.E.O.P.E.N

on 3 THRID downs. I can easily recall Moreno being wide open at the first. Also whoever the TE is..-cant remember his number but he was also wide wide wide muther freaking open for a flank pass. No one withing 15 yards and we needed 7. Had We converted those. we would have been able to extend drives and in 1 case FG or perhaps TD position.





It is apparant 1 of 2 things MUST change for the broncos.

option A- New QB

option B- New HC

One of those MUST change for the broncos to become legit. Maybe both, I dont know, I dont care. The OL has been doing well, now that it is healthy and intact (3 time all year). Knowshon is kicking ass and really balling out now that he does not get hit in the backfield and actually has some holes to run through. The defense IMO still sucks on a sweaty sack. But they came to play today. and this time the Offense did not.

Nomad
12-05-2010, 05:10 PM
On the highlights, they showed the Giants running it down the Redskins throats all game!!

rationalfan
12-05-2010, 05:18 PM
On the highlights, they showed the Giants running it down the Redskins throats all game!!

using "highlights" and "all game" together is like saying "tiny giant."

TimTebow15MVP
12-05-2010, 05:58 PM
this shit aint even about a learning curve for a young coach. it doesnt take a old coach to recognize that hey when the run games working and your QB ishaving a off day RUN THE BALL.

mcdaniels totally costed us this loss and the rams loss when he abandoned the run.

TXBRONC
12-05-2010, 07:33 PM
The run was there and Orton was off yet Mcd kept calling pass plays for Orton. Mcd is an incompetent head coach. Before this game I would have been ok with bring in a real GM and keeping Mcd to just coach but I've lost all faith in him now. Let the kid learn his trade at the expense of some other team.

I think that's partially true. Orton also played a big part in this lethargic event. The delay of game penalty which imo set up that sack and strip was a major turning point in the game.

scott.475
12-05-2010, 07:43 PM
not sure why the playcalling is perceived as having been terrible. the receivers were open in the second half, orton kept shortballin them - including two longish passes to lloyd. remember, the "good" running plays also came from mcd.

more and more the problems of the second half of the season seem to be coming back to orton. he's not a good quarterback when the blitz is in his face. and he's not a good quarterback when the game's tight in the fourth quarter. it's tough to blame one player on the loss, but orton did a lot to help the broncos lose today.

Yeah! If only Shanahan hadn't brought in Orton...er, wait...:rolleyes:

claymore
12-05-2010, 08:00 PM
I like the piss pants analogy for Orton. He's fine until the game/season is on the line. Then he locks up like a tard and pisses his pants.

Tned
12-05-2010, 08:50 PM
not sure why the playcalling is perceived as having been terrible. the receivers were open in the second half, orton kept shortballin them - including two longish passes to lloyd. remember, the "good" running plays also came from mcd.

more and more the problems of the second half of the season seem to be coming back to orton. he's not a good quarterback when the blitz is in his face. and he's not a good quarterback when the game's tight in the fourth quarter. it's tough to blame one player on the loss, but orton did a lot to help the broncos lose today.

An example of bad play calling was in the fourth, when we were at the 35 or 40 or so (going by memory) and we run it and pick up 4ish, and we are 2nd and 6 or so. One long, endzone pass to the right followed by one long endzone pass to the left, rather than just moving the chains. It was either crappy play calling or a really crappy choice by Orton if he chose the option.

TXBRONC
12-05-2010, 08:52 PM
An example of bad play calling was in the fourth, when we were at the 35 or 40 or so (going by memory) and we run it and pick up 4ish, and we are 2nd and 6 or so. One long, endzone pass to the right followed by one long endzone pass to the left, rather than just moving the chains. It was either crappy play calling or a really crappy choice by Orton if he chose the option.

Maybe a little of both.

Lancane
12-05-2010, 08:56 PM
Maybe a little of both.

Or maybe the marque symbolism of an idiotic, egotistical coach and his porous, drunkard, system of a choice quarterback.

:whoknows:

HORSEPOWER 56
12-05-2010, 09:02 PM
An example of bad play calling was in the fourth, when we were at the 35 or 40 or so (going by memory) and we run it and pick up 4ish, and we are 2nd and 6 or so. One long, endzone pass to the right followed by one long endzone pass to the left, rather than just moving the chains. It was either crappy play calling or a really crappy choice by Orton if he chose the option.

Still hoping the boy genius gets another shot next year? Are you still convinced sticking with the wunderkind is in our best interest? Isn't he supposed to be an offensive guru? How do you RUSH FOR 160+ Yards and NEVER find the endzone????

Tned
12-05-2010, 09:06 PM
Still hoping the boy genius gets another shot next year? Are you still convinced sticking with the wunderkind is in our best interest? Isn't he supposed to be an offensive guru? How do you RUSH FOR 160+ Yards and NEVER find the endzone????

Hey HP, don't yap at me like a little chihuahua on crack.

I have NEVER been a McDaniels apologist or McD lover. I have pointed out the good and bad (all the personnel moves tearing apart the roster), and said from nearly day one that there would be major growing pains due to his inexperience and ego.

All I have said is that Bowlen and Ellis need to make the decision based on whether or not he's working a rebuild plan they agree with, and not do something simply to appease emotional and angry fans (see your post).

CoachChaz
12-05-2010, 09:08 PM
I'm not saying that McD is The Answer, but at what point are people capable of looking past their hatred for the guy and actually holding players accountable.

We could have ran more, but Moreno might have had a heart attack. 23 carries has to be one of his top 5 days as far as carries go

Lancane
12-05-2010, 09:10 PM
I'm not saying that McD is The Answer, but at what point are people capable of looking past their hatred for the guy and actually holding players accountable.

We could have ran more, but Moreno might have had a heart attack. 23 carries has to be one of his top 5 days as far as carries go

When the dipstick is elsewhere F'n up another franchise rather then our own, then we'll overlook it...not forget, but overlook.

Jake Klug
12-05-2010, 09:11 PM
I'm not saying that McD is The Answer, but at what point are people capable of looking past their hatred for the guy and actually holding players accountable.

We could have ran more, but Moreno might have had a heart attack. 23 carries has to be one of his top 5 days as far as carries go

Its a little surprising that someone with "coach" as part of their name would be exonerating a coach by scapegoating players.

BroncoNut
12-05-2010, 09:11 PM
I'm not saying that McD is The Answer, but at what point are people capable of looking past their hatred for the guy and actually holding players accountable.

We could have ran more, but Moreno might have had a heart attack. 23 carries has to be one of his top 5 days as far as carries go

It's a bit frustrating (the playcalling, esp the passing today), but I just don't hate that much on the guy. he's gotta coach to improvise when necessary I do think.

TXBRONC
12-05-2010, 09:12 PM
I'm not saying that McD is The Answer, but at what point are people capable of looking past their hatred for the guy and actually holding players accountable.

We could have ran more, but Moreno might have had a heart attack. 23 carries has to be one of his top 5 days as far as carries go

Yep the player are responsible but the vast majority of them McDaniels brought in. That's not hatred that's a cold hard fact.

JDL
12-05-2010, 09:37 PM
Anyone consider that Orton may have a dead arm after carrying the team most of the year? Happens to pitchers all the time and nobody ever talks about it for QBs, but it probably happens all the time.

He's 8 passes short of his last year in Chicago and is on pace to have over 600 attempts this season. Elway only did that once in his career and Orton I think may set the team record in pass attempts. His arm looked great early in the season but he may just simply be tired.... 153 pass attempts in the previous 4 games... that's a lot!

At any rate, who knows but you can't judge a QB who's had a Pro Bowl season by 1 game where he just didn't have it.

rationalfan
12-05-2010, 11:46 PM
Yeah! If only Shanahan hadn't brought in Orton...er, wait...:rolleyes:

what? doesn't make sense in the context of your pulled quote.

rationalfan
12-05-2010, 11:47 PM
Its a little surprising that someone with "coach" as part of their name would be exonerating a coach by scapegoating players.

dude, look past the tag of the members. again, if you take them literally one of our fellow members actually eats staples.

scott.475
12-06-2010, 12:49 AM
what? doesn't make sense in the context of your pulled quote.

In the context that robert ethan mcdaniels thinks Josh can do no wrong and was blaming Orton for today, yet Josh was the guy who brought Orton in, it makes it makes perfect sense. Some might call it humor, some sarcasm. Just trying to be a little funny, why you so serious all the time? Loosen up!

I actually don't hate Orton, not sure he can deliver us to the promised land, but I sure don't hate him either. The worn out arm argument above might have some merit.

Ravage!!!
12-06-2010, 01:48 AM
Anyone consider that Orton may have a dead arm after carrying the team most of the year? Happens to pitchers all the time and nobody ever talks about it for QBs, but it probably happens all the time.

He's 8 passes short of his last year in Chicago and is on pace to have over 600 attempts this season. Elway only did that once in his career and Orton I think may set the team record in pass attempts. His arm looked great early in the season but he may just simply be tired.... 153 pass attempts in the previous 4 games... that's a lot!

At any rate, who knows but you can't judge a QB who's had a Pro Bowl season by 1 game where he just didn't have it.

Uhmm.. No. No one has considered that. If thats true, at his age, he needs to quit the game.

I promise you, his year isnt' considered pro-bowl calibur when he's failed so miserably in the 4th when games are on the line.

Ravage!!!
12-06-2010, 01:52 AM
I'm not saying that McD is The Answer, but at what point are people capable of looking past their hatred for the guy and actually holding players accountable.

We could have ran more, but Moreno might have had a heart attack. 23 carries has to be one of his top 5 days as far as carries go

At the same time, when do we finally admit that this coach just doesn't have this team behind him? Just as the entire ESPN staff talked about this morning, he is in WAY over his head. They see it as ex-coaches and ex-players... yo don't think the players on the roster see what everyone else sees??

THe Cowboys started playing better once they had a new coach in the HC seat. Phillips lost that team's respect and thus their playing showed it. I think we are seeing much of the same thing. I dont believe these players have much respect for the coach. 6 points. Can't blame this game on the defense.

TimTebow15MVP
12-06-2010, 03:23 AM
At the same time, when do we finally admit that this coach just doesn't have this team behind him? Just as the entire ESPN staff talked about this morning, he is in WAY over his head. They see it as ex-coaches and ex-players... yo don't think the players on the roster see what everyone else sees??

THe Cowboys started playing better once they had a new coach in the HC seat. Phillips lost that team's respect and thus their playing showed it. I think we are seeing much of the same thing. I dont believe these players have much respect for the coach. 6 points. Can't blame this game on the defense.

please dont compare the broncos to the cowboys. the cowboys flatout quit. it doesnt matter who the coach is if you quit your quiters. this broncos team has not quit. i dont care if there playing for themselves or mcdaniels but they cannot be compared to the cowboys.

you dont think the OL and Moreno was out there playing hard? Or a out manned defense goes out on the road and holds KC to 10 points? they wasnt playing hard? these guys havent quit even though mcdaniels has failed them. I like that.

Lancane
12-06-2010, 03:35 AM
please dont compare the broncos to the cowboys. the cowboys flatout quit. it doesnt matter who the coach is if you quit your quiters. this broncos team has not quit. i dont care if there playing for themselves or mcdaniels but they cannot be compared to the cowboys.

you dont think the OL and Moreno was out there playing hard? Or a out manned defense goes out on the road and holds KC to 10 points? they wasnt playing hard? these guys havent quit even though mcdaniels has failed them. I like that.

I don't think Rav was comparing them due to that...I think he was trying to say that a new coach could be a breath of fresh air for the players in general.

Tned
12-06-2010, 08:34 AM
I don't think Rav was comparing them due to that...I think he was trying to say that a new coach could be a breath of fresh air for the players in general.

With what upside? In Dallas, Garret was the heir apparent, until the struggles of the last two years. This is a chance for Jones to see him in the role he wanted for Garret when he resigned him to BIG time OC money a few years back.

Who is that person on the Broncos? Wink? Other than him, I'm not sure who could be even close to that same guy.

Don't get me wrong, the Broncos might be close to caving to fan pressure, but if they can him in season, that will be the only reason.

TXBRONC
12-06-2010, 08:54 AM
With what upside? In Dallas, Garret was the heir apparent, until the struggles of the last two years. This is a chance for Jones to see him in the role he wanted for Garret when he resigned him to BIG time OC money a few years back.

Who is that person on the Broncos? Wink? Other than him, I'm not sure who could be even close to that same guy.

Don't get me wrong, the Broncos might be close to caving to fan pressure, but if they can him in season, that will be the only reason.

No it wouldn't be the only reason he gets canned. How many times have you gone through the litany of mistakes McDaniels has made? No one mistake is enough to get him fired but there is an accumulative affect along with the failures on the field.

Tned any coach who has three four game streaks and is well on his way to his fourth in less than two seasons will have a very hard time keep their job. If at the end of the season if Bowlen makes the decision to fire McDaniels I'm sure he'll take the fans views into consideration but by means will be the only reason or even the main reason he makes a move like that. Bowlen has already said that he's going to wait for end season to make his decision and given his m.o. in situations where he's fired the head coach they have all come after the seasson was over.

Tned
12-06-2010, 08:57 AM
No it wouldn't be the only reason he gets canned. How many times have you gone through the litany of mistakes McDaniels has made? No one mistake is enough to get him fired but there is an accumulative affect along with the failures on the field.

Tned any coach who has three four game streaks and is well on his way to his fourth in less than two seasons will have a very hard time keep their job. If at the end of the season if Bowlen makes the decision to fire McDaniels I'm sure he'll take the fans views into consideration but by means will be the only reason or even the main reason he makes a move like that.

Again, for the 20th time or so, I'm referring to an in-season firing, as I said in the post you quoted.

Every game, he's making it harder and harder for Bowlen and Ellis to bring him back, but it makes no sense to fire him before the season is over, which is what many fans want.

TXBRONC
12-06-2010, 09:09 AM
Again, for the 20th time or so, I'm referring to an in-season firing, as I said in the post you quoted.

Every game, he's making it harder and harder for Bowlen and Ellis to bring him back, but it makes no sense to fire him before the season is over, which is what many fans want.

I know you did that's why I said Bowlen made it clear that he''ll make his decison at the end of the year. His previous history in situations like this shows that he waits until the season is before he makes a move.

HORSEPOWER 56
12-06-2010, 09:16 AM
With what upside? In Dallas, Garret was the heir apparent, until the struggles of the last two years. This is a chance for Jones to see him in the role he wanted for Garret when he resigned him to BIG time OC money a few years back.

Who is that person on the Broncos? Wink? Other than him, I'm not sure who could be even close to that same guy.

Don't get me wrong, the Broncos might be close to caving to fan pressure, but if they can him in season, that will be the only reason.

Mike McCoy. He's the only one on the roster with any type of pro-ball resume. mcDaniels pretty much does his job because he won't let his offensive coordinator (McCoy) do it and Josh can't let go, but I think McCoy could be a fine interim HC.

I have a lot of respect for John Fox (McCoy's old boss) because he believes in the same things I do - smashmouth running game and defense and I think McCoy believes the same things. The bottom line is, we can't get any worse. With McDaniels at the helm I fully expect us to win maybe one more game. 4-12 is a disaster. A fresh face might light a spark. I'd be willing to bet that McCoy could call a better offense, based on the players he has, too. Also, it would probably remove a lot of the anxiety the other assistants feel about the continued tongue lashings and verbal degradation at the hands of McDaniels. I think guys that weren't always getting screamed at would probably coach and play better. Just saying.

Tned
12-06-2010, 09:16 AM
I know you did that's why I said Bowlen made it clear that he''ll make his decison at the end of the year. His previous history in situations like this shows that he waits until the season is before he makes a move.

Unlike baseball and other sports, rarely do NFL teams fire in season, because of the extreme differences between the NFL and other sports. The NFL doesn't have many games, and very often the 'scheme' is as important as the players and takes a great deal of time to implement.

In Baseball, a new manager can fire up the team, and his differences in strategy can almost always be implemented on the fly with the guys on the team. Same with hockey and baseball. The NFL is a different beast.

Dreadnought
12-06-2010, 09:17 AM
No it wouldn't be the only reason he gets canned. How many times have you gone through the litany of mistakes McDaniels has made? No one mistake is enough to get him fired but there is an accumulative affect along with the failures on the field.

Tned any coach who has three four game streaks and is well on his way to his fourth in less than two seasons will have a very hard time keep their job. If at the end of the season if Bowlen makes the decision to fire McDaniels I'm sure he'll take the fans views into consideration but by means will be the only reason or even the main reason he makes a move like that. Bowlen has already said that he's going to wait for end season to make his decision and given his m.o. in situations where he's fired the head coach they have all come after the season was over.

Its not just the past mistakes; all coaches make them, even the greatest. Its the lack of any indicators that the mistakes will stop that most bugs me.


you dont think the OL and Moreno was out there playing hard? Or a out manned defense goes out on the road and holds KC to 10 points? they wasnt playing hard? these guys havent quit even though mcdaniels has failed them. I like that.

Excellent point. This game could have been (was predicted by many analysts would be) a horrible blowout. It was not. This team isn't good, but they are still game. I did not get to see the game, but it looks like one of the better performances of the season with one big caveat - Orton's play. Figures that the one part of the team that hasn't been broke-dick in 2010, the passing attack, chooses this week to go south on us when the rest of the team more or less gets their act together

Tned
12-06-2010, 09:22 AM
Excellent point. This game could have been (was predicted by many analysts would be) a horrible blowout. It was not. This team isn't good, but they are still game. I did not get to see the game, but it looks like one of the better performances of the season with one big caveat - Orton's play. Figures that the one part of the team that hasn't been broke-dick in 2010, the passing attack, chooses this week to go south on us when the rest of the team more or less gets their act together

Two caveats. Orton's play and McDaniels play calling.

Dreadnought
12-06-2010, 09:34 AM
Two caveats. Orton's play and McDaniels play calling.

As I said, I didn't see the game. The fact that McDaniels called a poor game I pretty much take as a given, but I can't personally attest to it this time.

TXBRONC
12-06-2010, 09:38 AM
Unlike baseball and other sports, rarely do NFL teams fire in season, because of the extreme differences between the NFL and other sports. The NFL doesn't have many games, and very often the 'scheme' is as important as the players and takes a great deal of time to implement.

In Baseball, a new manager can fire up the team, and his differences in strategy can almost always be implemented on the fly with the guys on the team. Same with hockey and baseball. The NFL is a different beast.

I understand I don't disagree with you entirely. I believe if Bowlen makes a move it will not come until end of the season that just the way he operates and I'm ok with that.

I'm an Atlanta Braves fan so I understand analogy and appreciate it but I don't think it necessarily applies. I can not think of one interim head coach that has ever takeover once a season has gotten underway and changed schemes especially in situation like this. If Bowlen bowed to fan pressure and brought in a interim head coach I just can see one making changes like that especially if he has any desire to have the interim tag taken off of his title. The only time I've seen anything like that is when team has been decimated by injury and have the personnel to run the current scheme. Do you know of any interim situations like what you're describing?

For the sake of posterity I don't disagree about not making a change until end season if one is going come at all. The only place we diverge is what kind of impact it would have on the team.

Tned
12-06-2010, 09:41 AM
I understand I don't disagree with you entirely. I believe if Bowlen makes a move it will not come until end of the season that just the way he operates and I'm ok with that.

I'm an Atlanta Braves fan so I understand analogy and appreciate it but I don't think it necessarily applies. I can not think of one interim head coach that has ever takeover once a season has gotten underway and changed schemes especially in situation like this. If Bowlen bowed to fan pressure and brought in a interim head coach I just can see one making changes like that especially if he has any desire to have the interim tag taken off of his title. The only time I've seen anything like that is when team has been decimated by injury and have the personnel to run the current scheme. Do you know of any interim situations like what you're describing?

For the sake of posterity I don't disagree about not making a change until end season if one is going come at all. The only place we diverge is what kind of impact it would have on the team.

You misunderstood my point. The fact that they can't, and don't, change schemes in-season, means that it puts the interim head coache (unless he would implement the same scheme long-term) in a tough position to 'prove' he's a better coach.

It's just a different beast, which is why unlike in other sports, almost all of the firings happen after the season.

jhildebrand
12-06-2010, 11:56 AM
at what point are people capable of looking past their hatred for the guy and actually holding players accountable.


I always start with the players and playcalling. But then I always come to the realization of WHO brought the players here and WHO prepares them week in and week out-Josh McDaniels.

TXBRONC
12-06-2010, 12:27 PM
I always start with the players and playcalling. But then I always come to the realization of WHO brought the players here and WHO prepares them week in and week out-Josh McDaniels.

Yep. Certainly the players are accountable who was the one that turned over more than 80% of the roster?



Q&A: Responsibility for Broncos' performance is on McDaniels
By Jeff Legwold
The Denver Post
Posted: 12/04/2010 01:00:00 AM MST



That said, McDaniels is the Broncos' coach. He is the team's designated face and voice of the franchise. That's the job he wanted when the Broncos interviewed him twice, and it's the job that was given to him. It's why he's scheduled to earn more than $3 million next season as well as in 2012.

He also calls plays on offense, is hands-on in the defensive game-planning and has final authority on the team's personnel matters. That puts him in the hub of the wheel in both good times and bad.

Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse


http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16771875

vandammage13
12-06-2010, 01:36 PM
This was actually one of the few games where I don't think too much blame can be placed on McD. The team was actually competitive and looked more than ready to play. This time, the blame can soley be placed on Orton.

Schematically, the plays were there to be made, as there were countless times that WRs were more than open enough to move the chains. McD called the game well, and left it in the hands of the players to make the plays. Orton is the one who failed this time.

The only blame I can put on McD is that even though the plays being called were resulting in WRs being open, Orton was playing horridly, so perhaps he should not have allowed Orton to keep throwing the ball and relied more on Moreno since Orton was playing so badly. However, those are plays that your QB should be expected to make, so I'm not going to crucify McD this time for his playcalling, because the plays were there, but Orton just let him down.

CoachChaz
12-06-2010, 01:47 PM
Just want to make sure I have this right.

If Orton goes out and plays a great game, as he has done most of this year, and we lose...it's because McD doesnt have the right plays to help Orton flourish.

But if Orton goes out and has a bad game...it's because McD brought in horrible players like him. Thus, if the players fail...it's McD's fault and if they play well and still lose...it's McD's fault and the players busted their buts.

Interesting. I wish everything in life allowed us to have things both ways.

Dreadnought
12-06-2010, 01:54 PM
Just want to make sure I have this right.

If Orton goes out and plays a great game, as he has done most of this year, and we lose...it's because McD doesnt have the right plays to help Orton flourish.

But if Orton goes out and has a bad game...it's because McD brought in horrible players like him. Thus, if the players fail...it's McD's fault and if they play well and still lose...it's McD's fault and the players busted their buts.

Interesting. I wish everything in life allowed us to have things both ways.

Not quite how I'd put it, Coach. My own version is much simplified, and goes like this - If the Broncos consistently lose it eventually becomes McDaniels fault. They have consistently lost, so now its his fault. Doesn't absolve some players on the team, which is not now exactly a goldmine of talent. They kind of suck too.

topscribe
12-06-2010, 01:57 PM
Just want to make sure I have this right.

If Orton goes out and plays a great game, as he has done most of this year, and we lose...it's because McD doesnt have the right plays to help Orton flourish.

But if Orton goes out and has a bad game...it's because McD brought in horrible players like him. Thus, if the players fail...it's McD's fault and if they play well and still lose...it's McD's fault and the players busted their buts.

Interesting. I wish everything in life allowed us to have things both ways.

For the first time this season, I can say that Orton clearly was responsible
for the loss of this game. He admitted as much himself. Had he hit one of
those passes that would have resulted in a TD or close to it, that would
have been enough. Let's face it: The running game was superb, the defense
allowed only 10 points, and the ST allowed no big plays. Yes, there was
some pressure on the QB, but Orton did have some one-on-ones, and he
just plain missed. Period.

-----

BeefStew25
12-06-2010, 01:58 PM
Not quite how I'd put it, Coach. My own version is much simplified, and goes like this - If the Broncos consistently lose it eventually becomes McDaniels fault. They have consistently lost, so now its his fault. Doesn't absolve some players on the team, which is not now exactly a goldmine of talent. They kind of suck too.

Exactly. I can't eat Taco Bell everyday and then wonder why I have smelly gas.

topscribe
12-06-2010, 01:59 PM
Exactly. I can't eat Taco Bell everyday and then wonder why I have smelly gas.

Wow, Beef, is that what your your problem was?

-----

BeefStew25
12-06-2010, 02:00 PM
Wow, Beef, is that what your your problem was?

-----

I was speaking in hypotheticals. Lets keep this on topic. And drink your prune juice.

TXBRONC
12-06-2010, 02:01 PM
Just want to make sure I have this right.

If Orton goes out and plays a great game, as he has done most of this year, and we lose...it's because McD doesnt have the right plays to help Orton flourish.

But if Orton goes out and has a bad game...it's because McD brought in horrible players like him. Thus, if the players fail...it's McD's fault and if they play well and still lose...it's McD's fault and the players busted their buts.

Interesting. I wish everything in life allowed us to have things both ways.

There is nothing that's been said here I think would indicate trying to have it both ways.

McDaniels brought in 80% of the players that are here today and even though some of them are doing great we're 3-9. That's not trying to have both ways it's a fact.

topscribe
12-06-2010, 02:03 PM
I was speaking in hypotheticals. Lets keep this on topic. And drink your prune juice.

Last time I drank prune juice, I shit my pants . . .

-----

jhildebrand
12-06-2010, 02:03 PM
Just want to make sure I have this right.

If Orton goes out and plays a great game, as he has done most of this year, and we lose...it's because McD doesnt have the right plays to help Orton flourish.

But if Orton goes out and has a bad game...it's because McD brought in horrible players like him. Thus, if the players fail...it's McD's fault and if they play well and still lose...it's McD's fault and the players busted their buts.

Interesting. I wish everything in life allowed us to have things both ways.

I don't see how it is having it both ways when the players make the same mistakes or elementary mistakes week in and week out.

Every press conference we hear McD make a statement along the lines of "we were expecting them to do that and we were prepared for it but we just didn't execute." If you know it is coming, you practice for it and still fail.....

Ultimately losing 7 of 8 or whatever it is and not seeing a whole lot of progress is what it boils down to for me.

BeefStew25
12-06-2010, 02:04 PM
Last time I drank prune juice, I shit my pants . . .

-----

That is an excuse.

topscribe
12-06-2010, 02:10 PM
That is an excuse.

I know. Stinks, doesn't it?

-----

NightTrainLayne
12-06-2010, 02:16 PM
I don't see how it is having it both ways when the players make the same mistakes or elementary mistakes week in and week out.

Every press conference we hear McD make a statement along the lines of "we were expecting them to do that and we were prepared for it but we just didn't execute." If you know it is coming, you practice for it and still fail.....

Ultimately losing 7 of 8 or whatever it is and not seeing a whole lot of progress is what it boils down to for me.

In this particular case though, Orton has played pretty much lights out all season. There's little indication prior to yesterday that Orton would be incapable of completing the easy passes that he missed yesterday.

Yes, McD brought Orton in, but for the most part Orton has played very well. If Orton had played this badly all season long, then by all means this criticism fits, but he hasn't.

Personally, I would have liked to seen a couple more runs mixed in during those last 2 drives, but the plays that were called had the potential of working very well had Orton simply completed the easy completions. One-hopping it multiple times to guys is not something the McD could have expected to happen.

BeefStew25
12-06-2010, 02:21 PM
In this particular case though, Orton has played pretty much lights out all season. There's little indication prior to yesterday that Orton would be incapable of completing the easy passes that he missed yesterday.

Yes, McD brought Orton in, but for the most part Orton has played very well. If Orton had played this badly all season long, then by all means this criticism fits, but he hasn't.

Personally, I would have liked to seen a couple more runs mixed in during those last 2 drives, but the plays that were called had the potential of working very well had Orton simply completed the easy completions. One-hopping it multiple times to guys is not something the McD could have expected to happen.

Except Moreno was in the midst of running his ass off.

Ravage!!!
12-06-2010, 02:26 PM
Since week 4 of the season, Orton has come back down to where we expect Orton to be. He's terrible in the clutch and can't seem to take the team by the horns and drive them to win. This is why Orton will always be a back-up type of guy, and not the guy you want as your starter.

LordTrychon
12-06-2010, 02:30 PM
Since week 4 of the season, Orton has come back down to where we expect Orton to be. He's terrible in the clutch and can't seem to take the team by the horns and drive them to win. This is why Orton will always be a back-up type of guy, and not the guy you want as your starter.

In his defense... I think he's AWESOME for a backup QB. :cool:

I like him, I think he tries hard, and plays well under the right circumstances. I will even say he's played better than I or most have hoped.

He just doesn't have the carry-the-team in him... and that's what we need right now.

LordTrychon
12-06-2010, 02:32 PM
If we'd managed to turn around / keep the defense turned around with Nolan the way we started off last year... Orton could still be putting up good numbers and good w/l records. IMO.

topscribe
12-06-2010, 02:33 PM
In his defense... I think he's AWESOME for a backup QB. :cool:

I like him, I think he tries hard, and plays well under the right circumstances. I will even say he's played better than I or most have hoped.

He just doesn't have the carry-the-team in him... and that's what we need right now.

No, that is not what the Broncos need. They are shaping up to where they
have everything they need on offense, including Orton. What they need is
an upgrade in defensive talent. Regardless of what happened yesterday,
the defense has been the primary reason for Denver's losses throughout
the season (well, that and the running game, but they seem to be getting
the running game portion finally solved).

IMHO.

-----

jhildebrand
12-06-2010, 02:34 PM
In this particular case though, Orton has played pretty much lights out all season. There's little indication prior to yesterday that Orton would be incapable of completing the easy passes that he missed yesterday.

Yes, McD brought Orton in, but for the most part Orton has played very well. If Orton had played this badly all season long, then by all means this criticism fits, but he hasn't.

Personally, I would have liked to seen a couple more runs mixed in during those last 2 drives, but the plays that were called had the potential of working very well had Orton simply completed the easy completions. One-hopping it multiple times to guys is not something the McD could have expected to happen.

I don't disagree with much of what you say NTL. However, I will add to it that many people have been saying this day is coming with Orton.

I was telling Top after last week's game that Orton only looks as good and accurate as he does because his receivers make great plays continually and one of those days would come where they wouldn't. Yesterday was that day.

It wasn't that Orton was off as much as it was his receivers weren't making the awesome plays they have made routine this season.

jhildebrand
12-06-2010, 02:36 PM
No, that is not what the Broncos need. They are shaping up to where they
have everything they need on offense, including Orton. What they need is
an upgrade in defensive talent. Regardless of what happened yesterday,
the defense has been the primary reason for Denver's losses throughout
the season (well, that and the running game, but they seem to be getting
the running game portion finally solved).

IMHO.

-----

Ysterday goes square on the shoulders of McD and Orton. People have cried that Orton would win easier if he had a D and running game. He had both yesterday and he still had that shit the bed look down by a whopping 7 points.

topscribe
12-06-2010, 02:37 PM
I don't disagree with much of what you say NTL. However, I will add to it that many people have been saying this day is coming with Orton.

I was telling Top after last week's game that Orton only looks as good and accurate as he does because his receivers make great plays continually and one of those days would come where they wouldn't. Yesterday was that day.

It wasn't that Orton was off as much as it was his receivers weren't making the awesome plays they have made routine this season.

Yes, even the great Peyton Manning lately has found out what happens to a
QB when receivers aren't making plays . . .

-----

topscribe
12-06-2010, 02:38 PM
Ysterday goes square on the shoulders of McD and Orton. People have cried that Orton would win easier if he had a D and running game. He had both yesterday and he still had that shit the bed look down by a whopping 7 points.

Please understand I was not taking generally about Orton's game. I was
talking about yesterday, specifically. Orton has had a good year. Only the
hard core bashers and Tebow groupies would deny that . . .

-----

jhildebrand
12-06-2010, 02:42 PM
Yes, even the great Peyton Manning lately has found out what happens to a
QB when receivers aren't making plays . . .

-----
The difference being Manning brought his team back and gave them a chance. Only the Orton admirers would deny that :coffee:

jhildebrand
12-06-2010, 02:43 PM
Please understand I was not taking generally about Orton's game. I was
talking about yesterday, specifically. Orton has had a good year. Only the
hard core bashers and Tebow groupies would deny that . . .

-----

Its hard to pin anything directly on the D when Orton and his 3 and outs directly affect the D. It is much easier to see the O's deficiencies.

I don't really care trying to pin blame though because this team is bad across the board.

When was the last time Denver was eliminated from PO contention this early?

topscribe
12-06-2010, 02:46 PM
Its hard to pin anything directly on the D when Orton and his 3 and outs directly affect the D. It is much easier to see the O's deficiencies.

I don't really care trying to pin blame though because this team is bad across the board.

When was the last time Denver was eliminated from PO contention this early?

It's hard to pin anything on the three-and-outs when the majority of third
downs have been 8 to 15 yards. That has been covered ad nauseam . . .

-----

Dreadnought
12-06-2010, 02:47 PM
Please understand I was not taking generally about Orton's game. I was
talking about yesterday, specifically. Orton has had a good year. Only the
hard core bashers and Tebow groupies would deny that . . .

-----

I think there is some room for interpretation for what Orton's year means Top, though I don't think anyone in good faith can say he hasn't played his ass off most of the year. Its not necessary to think Orton = the Future to concede that the guy has lived up to and sometimes beyond expectation. Yesterday he stunk. It happens.

Personally, I think if he is the starter you have some problems. If he is your 2nd QB you are a lucky team, because he is fully competent to win games during a playoff run while a First Stringer recovers. To me that's the measure of a good backup (see also, Bubby Brister, 1998)

Ravage!!!
12-06-2010, 02:51 PM
It's hard to pin anything on the three-and-outs when the majority of third
downs have been 8 to 15 yards. That has been covered ad nauseam . . .

-----

Ok.. so he creates 3rd and longs and can't convert. He has had a terrible time converting on ALL third downs. When I see our team get to 3rd down.. I've already resigned that we are going to punt. THird and 8 is where you are suppposed to rely on the QB to make a play.

topscribe
12-06-2010, 02:53 PM
I think there is some room for interpretation for what Orton's year means Top, though I don't think anyone in good faith can say he hasn't played his ass off most of the year. Its not necessary to think Orton = the Future to concede that the guy has lived up to and sometimes beyond expectation. Yesterday he stunk. It happens.

Personally, I think if he is the starter you have some problems. If he is your 2nd QB you are a lucky team, because he is fully competent to win games during a playoff run while a First Stringer recovers. To me that's the measure of a good backup (see also, Bubby Brister, 1998)

Well, if the team were to continue to have 2nd- and 3rd-and-longs, they
would have problems - with any QB, in fact. And Orton is better than Bubby
Brister ever was.

-----

topscribe
12-06-2010, 02:56 PM
Ok.. so he creates 3rd and longs and can't convert. He has had a terrible time converting on ALL third downs. When I see our team get to 3rd down.. I've already resigned that we are going to punt.

There you go with your garbage again, Rav. Is it that hard for you to
understand? A team that cannot run the ball, and has penalty problems, as
that O-line so often had, ends up in 2nd- and 3rd-in-longs. Period. I don't
know how you can feel you can misrepresent the facts that way with those
who have actually seen the games.

Moreover, if Orton had such trouble converting ALL downs, how in the world
could he get to where he was leading the league in yardage with a 60+%
completion rate, a 7.9 YPC, and a 96.0 QBR? He had to convert somethng
somewhere? That is just a silly presumption . . .

-----

topscribe
12-06-2010, 03:01 PM
Screw this. I'm not here to get baited into an Orton debate as some of you
quasi-trolls want. I said my piece: I said Orton had a bad game. That is all I
wanted to do. I don't know how I could have given Orton a worse criticism
than I did.

I'm out of here. Sometimes, I just don't enjoy this board anymore . . .

-----

Ravage!!!
12-06-2010, 03:08 PM
1st Quarter:

3-13 (11:16) incomplete...Punt

3-8 (8:18) Sacked... Punt

2ND:

3-2 (15:00) complete to Lloyd...1st Down

3-4 (13:04) incomplete...Punt

3-12 (3:21) complete to Decker...1st Down

3-3 (1:27) Incomplete...Field Goal

3RD:

3-8 (6:48) Incomplete... Punt

3-8 (2:49) Incomplete...Punt

4TH:

3-6 (13:52) Incomplete...Field Goal

3-5 (10:57) Moreno run...1st Down

3-10 (7:59) Incomplete...Punt

3-18 (3:14) Complete to Moreno...Punt

BeefStew25
12-06-2010, 03:09 PM
Screw this. I'm not here to get baited into an Orton debate as some of you
quasi-trolls want. I said my piece: I said Orton had a bad game. That is all I
wanted to do. I don't know how I could have given Orton a worse criticism
than I did.

I'm out of here. Sometimes, I just don't enjoy this board anymore . . .

-----

No Top. Stay. I will protect you.

Ravage!!!
12-06-2010, 03:13 PM
Screw this. I'm not here to get baited into an Orton debate as some of you
quasi-trolls want. I said my piece: I said Orton had a bad game. That is all I
wanted to do. I don't know how I could have given Orton a worse criticism
than I did.

I'm out of here. Sometimes, I just don't enjoy this board anymore . . .

-----

What you want, is for us to accept your over-hyping of ORton's play, listen to you tell us that you watched "all his games"... reviewed the game tape, and tell us how good of a player he is, but get upset when people don't buy into your overly zealous opinion of his play.

Yes, the message board can be tough when you have an opinion that lies in the minority opinion.

This was a bad game by Orton....but the truth is, he's failed at the biggest times in the games over and over again. Can't tell me how good he is, brag about his yardage, talk about how good the receivers have been... and then say that its the "3rd and 8+ is what he struggles with." Thats when we need the "Yard passing" QB to step it up and complete a pass.

Dzone
12-06-2010, 03:14 PM
When this team gets to 3rd and long with Orton at QB, it is safe to go take a restroom break, unless you want to see Orton bounce a pass off the turf or send one flying out of bounds

BroncoStud
12-06-2010, 03:15 PM
Screw this. I'm not here to get baited into an Orton debate as some of you
quasi-trolls want. I said my piece: I said Orton had a bad game. That is all I
wanted to do. I don't know how I could have given Orton a worse criticism
than I did.

I'm out of here. Sometimes, I just don't enjoy this board anymore . . .

-----

Geez relax, it's just forum discussion TOP. However, my take is this, and it should be hard for even YOU to defend Orton on this one...

Last 2 games

Vs Rams
119 yards rushing
1-9 on 3rd down or 11% conversions

Vs Chiefs
161 yards rushing
3-12 on 3rd down or 25% conversions

In total, last 2 games,
180 yards rushing
4-21 on 3rd down or 19% conversions


That's just pitiful, absolutely pitiful. It's so mind-boggling obvious it's time for a change at QB. The season is lost, let Tebow play and see what value he has going forward.

BeefStew25
12-06-2010, 03:16 PM
All of you leave Top alone. Now.

BroncoStud
12-06-2010, 03:20 PM
All of you leave Top alone. Now.

Are there personal attacks going on? All I see if Pro vs Anti Orton posts like always.

BeefStew25
12-06-2010, 03:31 PM
Are there personal attacks going on? All I see if Pro vs Anti Orton posts like always.

Top is a national asset. lay off

GEM
12-06-2010, 03:31 PM
Screw this. I'm not here to get baited into an Orton debate as some of you
quasi-trolls want. I said my piece: I said Orton had a bad game. That is all I
wanted to do. I don't know how I could have given Orton a worse criticism
than I did.

I'm out of here. Sometimes, I just don't enjoy this board anymore . . .

-----

Sorry Top....just because other people have different opinions than you on Orton doesn't make them quasi trolls. Anytime anyone says anything negative about Orton, you feel you have to jump in to save him. That is all well and good, but that is your opinion. Just like some have the opposite opinion. That is debate, not trolling.

BroncoStud
12-06-2010, 03:32 PM
Top is a national asset. lay off

I enjoy debate with TOP, he needs to log on and give some back.

vandammage13
12-06-2010, 03:43 PM
There you go with your garbage again, Rav. Is it that hard for you to
understand? A team that cannot run the ball, and has penalty problems, as
that O-line so often had, ends up in 2nd- and 3rd-in-longs. Period. I don't
know how you can feel you can misrepresent the facts that way with those
who have actually seen the games.

Moreover, if Orton had such trouble converting ALL downs, how in the world
could he get to where he was leading the league in yardage with a 60+%
completion rate, a 7.9 YPC, and a 96.0 QBR? He had to convert somethng
somewhere? That is just a silly presumption . . .
-----

A good portion of Orton's stats are the result of piling on yards after the team is down 2+ scores in the second halves of games. I know you watch the games, so how can you not see that he's racking up all these numbers when the opposing defense goes into prevent mode, and then once Orton brings the team within striking distance, the opposing D turns it on again and Orton goes back to mediocrity?

I know this has been covered before, but how long are you going to continue to ignore the fact that his stats are way inflated because the Broncos are playing from behind so often? His stats aren't neccesarily as good as they appear. Don't take them at face value.

(Also, you do realize that 60% completion ain't what it used to be, don't you?...Orton's 60% completions is good for 21st in the league....Dare I say, Ortonary?)

topscribe
12-06-2010, 03:57 PM
Sorry Top....just because other people have different opinions than you on Orton doesn't make them quasi trolls. Anytime anyone says anything negative about Orton, you feel you have to jump in to save him. That is all well and good, but that is your opinion. Just like some have the opposite opinion. That is debate, not trolling.

Please, let's don't get you into the hyperbole. I don't jump in anytime
someone says something about Orton. That is hogwash. Did you read my
negative post about Orton in this thread?

Now, if I disagree with what someone says about Orton, or about any other
player, I just might "jump in" and respond. That is the definition of a message
board.

My "troll" remark was knee-jerk, I admit. But take a look at how I respond
to Dread, for instance. He is not an Orton fan, but he doesn't make stupid
exaggerated comments. So take a look at my discussions with him.

BTW, we do have a PM facility on this board. Just saying . . .

-----

topscribe
12-06-2010, 03:58 PM
Dare I say, Ortonary?

Might as well.

That's what I would expect out of you . . . :coffee:

-----

topscribe
12-06-2010, 03:59 PM
I enjoy debate with TOP, he needs to log on and give some back.

I enjoy discussing with you, too.

You don't like Orton, but you don't ordinarily make stupid remarks.

-----

vandammage13
12-06-2010, 04:00 PM
Might as well.

That's what I would expect out of you . . . :coffee:

-----

I would also expect this response from you, rather than you refuting the evidence.

topscribe
12-06-2010, 04:05 PM
I would also expect this response from you, rather than you refuting the evidence.

See, this is what I mean, GEM. No one, but NO ONE, posted a more scathing
rebuke against Orton than I did in this thread. And still I have people such as
this jumping on me.

And so that is why I said screw it. So screw it. I gave it a second chance.
Didn't work. So you can all drive everyone out of here except for the Orton
haters. "He sucks." "Yup, he sure sucks." "Yessir, I agree with both of you."

That's it for this thread.

:wave:

-----

vandammage13
12-06-2010, 04:11 PM
See, this is what I mean, GEM. No one, but NO ONE, posted a more scathing
rebuke against Orton than I did in this thread. And still I have people such as
this jumping on me.

And so that is why I said screw it. So screw it. I gave it a second chance.
Didn't work. So you can all drive everyone out of here except for the Orton
haters. "He sucks." "Yup, he sure sucks." "Yessir, I agree with both of you."

:wave:

-----

Actually, the only rebuke you've posted is that Orton played bad this week. I think that was obvious to everyone, so that wasn't much of a rebuke. It's the fact that he's just not really that good anyway, regardless of what happened yesterday, but yet you continue to post this nonsense citing is "great stats."

arapaho2
12-06-2010, 05:41 PM
you can't just run the ball the entire game or half. that's like asking the defense not to think.

besides, so many of today's successful running games came from passing formations. they worked because the defense had to respect the dual threat (though, not sure why they respected it so much today).

you can if they cant stop it:lol:

topscribe
12-06-2010, 05:54 PM
The run was there and Orton was off yet Mcd kept calling pass plays for Orton. Mcd is an incompitent head coach. Before this game I would have been ok with bring in a real GM and keeping Mcd to just coach but I've lost all faith in him now. Let the kid learn his trade at the expense of some other team.

You know, you may have a partial point there. Orton's accuracy wasn't there
yesterday, and the pass rush was pretty heavy, yet they continued to pass
downfield. You know, it may have been wise to peel it back to the old dink-
and-dunk for just one game?

-----

arapaho2
12-06-2010, 06:03 PM
It's hard to pin anything on the three-and-outs when the majority of third
downs have been 8 to 15 yards. That has been covered ad nauseam . . .

-----

lets examine passing plays on 3rd down

1..... 3-13 ...following a sack and incom on 2nd

2..... 3-8 following a sack and incom

3..... 3-2...comp

4..... 3-4...incom

5..... 3-12...after incom on 2nd down

6..... 3-8..after incom 2nd down

7......3-8 after incom on 2nd down

8. ....3-6 ...after incom on 1st down

9......3-10 after incompletes on 1st and 2nd

10....3-18 after a incom and a sack

sure he had some long third downs to complete...typically after wasting a down or two with his inaccuracys

GEM
12-06-2010, 06:05 PM
You know, you may have a partial point there. Orton's accuracy wasn't there
yesterday, and the pass rush was pretty heavy, yet they continued to pass
downfield. You know, it may have been wise to peel it back to the old dink-
and-dunk for just one game?

-----

Or just go the route that was working....let Moreno build on that 7 ypc stat. :shrugs: I mean if he can get around 7 yards every carry on each of 22, increase the number of run plays to 35 and see where it can come out. My hope would that you would trust your #12 pick at some point to carry the ball a decent amount of times per game. 22 is ridiculous....especially when each 22 is nearly netting you a 1st down.

vandammage13
12-06-2010, 06:06 PM
lets examine passing plays on 3rd down

1..... 3-13 ...following a sack and incom on 2nd

2..... 3-8 following a sack and incom

3..... 3-2...comp

4..... 3-4...incom

5..... 3-12...after incom on 2nd down

6..... 3-8..after incom 2nd down

7......3-8 after incom on 2nd down

8. ....3-6 ...after incom on 1st down

9......3-10 after incompletes on 1st and 2nd

10....3-18 after a incom and a sack

sure he had some long third downs to complete...typically after wasting a down or two with his inaccuracys

But wait!!...it's not Kyle's fault!!!

Don't you know that presenting facts to support your arguments is not allowed?

TXBRONC
12-06-2010, 06:06 PM
The run was there and Orton was off yet Mcd kept calling pass plays for Orton. Mcd is an incompitent head coach. Before this game I would have been ok with bring in a real GM and keeping Mcd to just coach but I've lost all faith in him now. Let the kid learn his trade at the expense of some other team.

One thing I would like to add to what I said earlier. We still need to pass the ball some but the problem with Orton is that refused to take the shorter routes.

Dirk
12-06-2010, 06:11 PM
Not to jump in here after all this.....wait a minute yes I am. :lol:

Orton has done a pretty good job all year. He didn't have a good game yesterday. Pressure is a bitch no matter if you are Orton or Brady.

Not siding with anyone really, just saying that Orton isn't a bad QB, he just isn't a Great QB. Give him lots of time and he is pretty damn accurate.

But back to the issue of the OP.

Play calling wasn't good at all.

topscribe
12-06-2010, 06:14 PM
lets examine passing plays on 3rd down

1..... 3-13 ...following a sack and incom on 2nd

2..... 3-8 following a sack and incom

3..... 3-2...comp

4..... 3-4...incom

5..... 3-12...after incom on 2nd down

6..... 3-8..after incom 2nd down

7......3-8 after incom on 2nd down

8. ....3-6 ...after incom on 1st down

9......3-10 after incompletes on 1st and 2nd

10....3-18 after a incom and a sack

sure he had some long third downs to complete...typically after wasting a down or two with his inaccuracys

I already said Orton was inaccurate yesterday. Twice, at least.

Or did you forget all about the rest of the season?

-----

vandammage13
12-06-2010, 06:17 PM
I already said Orton was inaccurate yesterday. Twice, at least.

Or did you forget all about the rest of the season?

-----

So if he comes back with similar results from other games are you going to acknowledge that Orton's problems go beyond yesterday, or will you turn up your nose and dismiss the facts like you normally do when they don't fall in line with your theories?

GEM
12-06-2010, 06:23 PM
So if he comes back with similar results from other games are you going to acknowledge that Orton's problems go beyond yesterday, or will you turn up your nose and dismiss the facts like you normally do when they don't fall in line with your theories?

Quit zeroing in on a poster. Post about the topic of the thread instead of making a poster the topic of the thread.

vandammage13
12-06-2010, 06:35 PM
Orton on 3rd down last week vs. St. Louis:

3rd and 10 at STL 35: Orton pass complete for 4 yards short of 1st down (incompletions on 1st and second down).

3rd and 8 at STL 22: Orton pass incomplete short right to B.Lloyd (3 yard run on 1st down, -1 yard pass on 2nd down).

3rd and 10 at DEN 25: Orton pass short right to K.Moreno to DEN 34 for 9 yards (Orton incompletions on 1st and 2nd down).

(NOTICE A PATTERN HERE?)

3rd and 10 at DEN 20: Orton sacked at DEN 16 for -4 yards (Orton incompletions on 1st and 2nd down).

3rd and 15 at STL 41: Orton pass short left to K.Moreno to SL 41 for no gain (-3yd run on 1st, -1 yard pass on 2nd).

3rd and 10 at DEN 24: Orton pass incomplete short right to E.Royal (After a holding call on 1st down, incompletion on 1st, 10 yard completion on 2nd).

3rd and 17 at DEN 43: Orton pass deep left to E.Royal to SL 33 for 24 yards (Sacked on 1st down, 5 yard completion on 2nd down....finally a conversion in garbage time).

3rd and 8 at DEN 43: K.Orton pass incomplete deep left to B.Lloyd (2yd completion on 1st down, incompletion on 2nd down. Did convert the 4th down, although its still garbage time).

3rd and 16 at DEN 28: Orton pass incomplete short middle to E.Royal (sacked on 1st down, incomplete on 2nd down...failed to convert on 4th down too).

This seems to debunk the myth that the 3rd down woes are due to bad running attack on 1st and 2nd down, but rather Orton's failures on 1st and 2nd down.

I see a disturbing trend that isn't just associated to last week. Want me to move onto other games??? Well, I just heard McD got fired, so I'll revisit this thread later.