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missingnumber7
12-02-2010, 10:32 AM
After all the turmoil that this team has been through the struggles and mistakes, miscues and fumbles, is a .500 season acceptable to this fanbase?

I know that I am going to be accused of drinking spiked Koolaid and being a homer, but to look at the last 5 games I see the opportunity to finish at .500. I know we can beat each of these teams IF and WHEN we play at the best of this teams abilities. The fact that keeps getting pointed out is that we are terribly inconsistent right now. True and I will accept that, but to go into a 5 game set, are there 5 other teams that you would rather face to end the season. We honestly could play spoiler and have fun with it. We could still finish 4-2 in the west. The proving point for that has to be this weekend. This KC team is going to be out for blood...not as if they aren't any other week. But we made them look like fools. If we can start these 5 games out with a win, I think that there is a great chance that this team shows up for the rest of the season and makes its fan base proud. I am moving past what we have seen the previous 11 weeks. We cant change that. I want to see a team on the field giving maximum effort and not giving up. I am not happy about the seasons total results, but giving 100% is all I am asking for and not coming out flat or thinking that the first drive TD is amazing and celebrating like you just won the SB (McD this is you).

Feel free to flame away, but I feel that at this point in teh season 8-8 is acceptable.

MasterShake
12-02-2010, 10:36 AM
8-8 this year would mean a strong finish for once. I would be fine with that. Plus, if we could pull that off that would mean victories against the Chiefs in December at Arrowhead, revenge agianst the Raiders (kind of) and maybe knocking the Chargers out of the playoffs on the last game. I'd like to see that. Probably won't happen, but I'd like to see it! :lol:

Northman
12-02-2010, 10:39 AM
No.

This was the year we were supposed to improve. While 8-8 would mean a strong finish it still comes up short in the grand scheme of things with McD's tenure.

Nomad
12-02-2010, 10:39 AM
8-8 this year would mean a strong finish for once. I would be fine with that. Plus, if we could pull that off that would mean victories against the Chiefs in December at Arrowhead, revenge agianst the Raiders (kind of) and maybe knocking the Chargers out of the playoffs on the last game. I'd like to see that. Probably won't happen, but I'd like to see it! :lol:

That would be a hell of a finish......anything can happen! I can forgive and forget when it comes to winning!!:D Next draft go strong on the defensive line!!

Jake Klug
12-02-2010, 10:44 AM
I dont really think this is the best poll. Asking if 8-8 is OK is going to cause different interpretations. Some will think this is asking if you like the past regime more than this one. Others will think this means winning out this year.

And youre going to get a poll result that doesnt really reflect where people stand.

Maybe Im wrong though...

HORSEPOWER 56
12-02-2010, 10:44 AM
For me, nothing about McDaniels is acceptable. Our record isn't even important anymore.

PAINTERDAVE
12-02-2010, 10:57 AM
That would be a hell of a finish......anything can happen! I can forgive and forget when it comes to winning!!:D Next draft go strong on the defensive line!!

Yeah... a strong finish like that would go along way to stabilizing the team.

But c'mon... we aint gonna go 8 and 8

Reality right now is 3 and 8.

3 wins. That is reality.

___________
The better question is...
what about next year...
after a good draft,
start or dont start Tebow,
yada yada yada...

is 8 and 8 in 2011 acceptable enough for McD to keep his job?

MileHighCrew
12-02-2010, 11:00 AM
An amazing over the top finish to this season, would give the Broncos the same record that got Shanny fired.
Why was he fired, because Bowlen and the fans expect more of the players and the coaches than 8-8. The Denver Broncos were held to a higher standard then normal NFL team, .500 is not good enough and that is the very best Josh can prey for.
No 8-8 is not good enough, not this year not ever.

missingnumber7
12-02-2010, 11:00 AM
No.

This was the year we were supposed to improve. While 8-8 would mean a strong finish it still comes up short in the grand scheme of things with McD's tenure.

I agree 100%. This was the year that we were supposed to improve, and to this date we have stayed the same team that lost to the Ravens. That loss last year, seems to have put this team in hybernate mode. Someone correct me if I am wrong. But I honestly do not think this team has put 2 complete games together since the 6 game winning streak. But you are correct because he said the same things at the end of last season that he is saying now, about having to play better and getting better.

missingnumber7
12-02-2010, 11:05 AM
An amazing over the top finish to this season, would give the Broncos the same record that got Shanny fired.
Why was he fired, because Bowlen and the fans expect more of the players and the coaches than 8-8. The Denver Broncos were held to a higher standard then normal NFL team, .500 is not good enough and that is the very best Josh can prey for.
No 8-8 is not good enough, not this year not ever.

I agree, but when you have inconsistent efforts week in and week out, I think finishing 8-8 would be a glimmer of hope to show me that he might be able to get this team to perform in consecutive weeks.

But I also agree that .500 record is not what Bronco fans want, nor what the organization strives for. Not that we are a spoiled fan base, but we have been treated extremely well since Bowlen has taken over, and have a standard of success that we strive to keep. It hasn't been there since the loss to the Steelers, and there are many reasons for that, which have been discussed. DC turnstile, unstable FO, qustionable personnel moves.

broncofaninfla
12-02-2010, 11:08 AM
It's acceptable as long as the franchise finishes with optimism and Xanders is canned. We need a real GM. I've already seen a 6-0 run by the Mcd/Xanders duo, it won't be enough to see Denver wins a couple of garbage games at the end of the season. This teams needs to be consistent in it's improvment and it will never happen with this duo.

Northman
12-02-2010, 11:10 AM
I agree 100%. This was the year that we were supposed to improve, and to this date we have stayed the same team that lost to the Ravens. That loss last year, seems to have put this team in hybernate mode. Someone correct me if I am wrong. But I honestly do not think this team has put 2 complete games together since the 6 game winning streak. But you are correct because he said the same things at the end of last season that he is saying now, about having to play better and getting better.

Not only that but even if you want to give him somewhat of a pass with the injuries this is something that Shanny had to deal with but didnt save his job either. But the thing that stands out more than that is the discipline of the team in terms penalties, execution, etc. All the things we've seen this team do the last 5 years has not changed. Simply changing out players only to have them perform the same way doesnt mean a thing, especially if your not winning ballgames. One of my biggest gripes about the Broncos right now is the lack of homefield advantage. It used to be that teams HATED to play here and we were one of the better ones with our homefield but alas, that has gone by the wayside now.

Nomad
12-02-2010, 11:13 AM
Yeah... a strong finish like that would go along way to stabilizing the team.

But c'mon... we aint gonna go 8 and 8

Reality right now is 3 and 8.

3 wins. That is reality.

___________
The better question is...
what about next year...
after a good draft,
start or dont start Tebow,
yada yada yada...

is 8 and 8 in 2011 acceptable enough for McD to keep his job?


More than likely it won't happen, but we'll see taking it game to game!! But a strong finish would go a long ways, something we haven't seen in some years now and no way would Bowlen send him down the road!! I understand regardless of wins, not many want to see Mcdaniels touch another draft!!

Ravage!!!
12-02-2010, 11:23 AM
Not for me. Finishing strong after watching an abysmal season means nothing. This season has been horrendous on SOO many levels. Finishing with 5 wins, would only make me pull my hair out, because this would mean that people would ACTUALLY want to give this coach another season.

As of right now, after nearly 2 full seasons and 2 offseasons, I have seen absolutely nothing.. NOTHING.. that makes me think McD is a HC.. in ANY way. It takes the ability to manage PEOPLE to be a good HC. There isn't anything McD is worse at, than managing and dealing with people.

I still think Bowlen would fire McD, regardless.

BroncoJoe
12-02-2010, 11:27 AM
Not only that but even if you want to give him somewhat of a pass with the injuries this is something that Shanny had to deal with but didnt save his job either. But the thing that stands out more than that is the discipline of the team in terms penalties, execution, etc. All the things we've seen this team do the last 5 years has not changed. Simply changing out players only to have them perform the same way doesnt mean a thing, especially if your not winning ballgames. One of my biggest gripes about the Broncos right now is the lack of homefield advantage. It used to be that teams HATED to play here and we were one of the better ones with our homefield but alas, that has gone by the wayside now.

Shanahan's job was "saved" for 10 years...

missingnumber7
12-02-2010, 11:29 AM
Not only that but even if you want to give him somewhat of a pass with the injuries this is something that Shanny had to deal with but didnt save his job either. But the thing that stands out more than that is the discipline of the team in terms penalties, execution, etc. All the things we've seen this team do the last 5 years has not changed. Simply changing out players only to have them perform the same way doesnt mean a thing, especially if your not winning ballgames. One of my biggest gripes about the Broncos right now is the lack of homefield advantage. It used to be that teams HATED to play here and we were one of the better ones with our homefield but alas, that has gone by the wayside now.

The bolded is huge. I cant believe how much it has changed from last year to this year it kinda blows my mind. Last year if I wanted to tailgate in C lot I had to be in line early and then cross my fingers that I was early enough. This year you can roll in whenever and probably still get in C lot. And there are a lot more visiting fans than I remember from before. Even from the Steelers game last year.

Northman
12-02-2010, 11:30 AM
The bolded is huge. I cant believe how much it has changed from last year to this year it kinda blows my mind. Last year if I wanted to tailgate in C lot I had to be in line early and then cross my fingers that I was early enough. This year you can roll in whenever and probably still get in C lot. And there are a lot more visiting fans than I remember from before. Even from the Steelers game last year.

Indeed. Ive never been to the stadium personally but seen it enough throughout the years to know that i thought i would never see the day when there would be that many rival fans in the stadium let alone get lamblasted by scores like 41-3 or 51-14 at home. Just terrible.

BroncoJoe
12-02-2010, 11:32 AM
Indeed. Ive never been to the stadium personally but seen it enough throughout the years to know that i thought i would never see the day when there would be that many rival fans in the stadium let alone get lamblasted by scores like 41-3 or 51-14 at home. Just terrible.

LOL. And yet, you're the expert.

underrated29
12-02-2010, 11:35 AM
I would very much like it. and I hate saying this because I have never said it before...But I hope we do not.


I REALLY REALLY REALLY want us to have a shot at Fairley! If we stay current we will be able to draft him. He is what our defense has been lacking. our team has been lacking. We have an old run down version of it in dawkins, but Fairley is just a mean nasty guy. Other teams do not want to line up against him. He does literally strike fear in opposing offenses and we have not had that in forever. I want attitude on this team. I want pissed off hungry crazed lunatics...I will take the occasional (if its more than that no way) roughing calls. Look at Suh- MAN BEAST. We need ours. If we win out, I do not think we sniff him.

Northman
12-02-2010, 11:35 AM
LOL. And yet, you're the expert.

Expert on what? Where did i claim i was an expert. Do you ever add anything of value to the board or just troll?

BroncoJoe
12-02-2010, 11:39 AM
Expert on what? Where did i claim i was an expert. Do you ever add anything of value to the board or just troll?

Hardly a troll, North. Review your posts on nearly everything Broncos, and perhaps you'll discover my use of the term "expert".

Northman
12-02-2010, 11:40 AM
Hardly a troll, North. Review your posts on nearly everything Broncos, and perhaps you'll discover my use of the term "expert".

So then i guess we are all experts then. Welcome to the internet forum.

Jake Klug
12-02-2010, 11:41 AM
I would very much like it. and I hate saying this because I have never said it before...But I hope we do not.


I REALLY REALLY REALLY want us to have a shot at Fairley! If we stay current we will be able to draft him. He is what our defense has been lacking. our team has been lacking. We have an old run down version of it in dawkins, but Fairley is just a mean nasty guy. Other teams do not want to line up against him. He does literally strike fear in opposing offenses and we have not had that in forever. I want attitude on this team. I want pissed off hungry crazed lunatics...I will take the occasional (if its more than that no way) roughing calls. Look at Suh- MAN BEAST. We need ours. If we win out, I do not think we sniff him.

Could you imagine him on the same side as Doom?

Ravage!!!
12-02-2010, 11:45 AM
Hardly a troll, North. Review your posts on nearly everything Broncos, and perhaps you'll discover my use of the term "expert".

What does being at the stadium have a SINGLE friggin thing with being able to see whats on the field and whats happening with the Broncos?

topscribe
12-02-2010, 11:47 AM
I'm hoping like crazy for a strong finish. It has been evident that a strong
finish in the previous season yields a heavy influence on the next season. So,
if the Broncos can finish on a high note, that could get them to chomping on
the bit for next year.

If there is a next year . . .

-----

Northman
12-02-2010, 11:47 AM
What does being at the stadium have a SINGLE friggin thing with being able to see whats on the field and whats happening with the Broncos?


Dont bother dude.

Ive gotten used to him just coming out of nowhere making crap comments like that. Some people just cant handle differing opinions on the state of the team so they got to try and make it personal for whatever godly reason.

Nomad
12-02-2010, 11:56 AM
I'm hoping like crazy for a strong finish. It has been evident that a strong
finish in the previous season yields a heavy influence on the next season. So,
if the Broncos can finish on a high note, that could get them to chomping on
the bit for next year.

If there is a next year . . .
-----

I keep reading more and more teams are offering a refund to season ticket holders if there isn't a season. Some believe they're bluffing to get the NFLPA to cave in and some believe the situation is more serious!

It'll be interesting as far as draft goes to see who makes themselves eligible or not, if the NFL doesn't have their shit together by the end of Jan!!

BroncoStud
12-02-2010, 12:13 PM
After all the turmoil that this team has been through the struggles and mistakes, miscues and fumbles, is a .500 season acceptable to this fanbase?

I know that I am going to be accused of drinking spiked Koolaid and being a homer, but to look at the last 5 games I see the opportunity to finish at .500. I know we can beat each of these teams IF and WHEN we play at the best of this teams abilities. The fact that keeps getting pointed out is that we are terribly inconsistent right now. True and I will accept that, but to go into a 5 game set, are there 5 other teams that you would rather face to end the season. We honestly could play spoiler and have fun with it. We could still finish 4-2 in the west. The proving point for that has to be this weekend. This KC team is going to be out for blood...not as if they aren't any other week. But we made them look like fools. If we can start these 5 games out with a win, I think that there is a great chance that this team shows up for the rest of the season and makes its fan base proud. I am moving past what we have seen the previous 11 weeks. We cant change that. I want to see a team on the field giving maximum effort and not giving up. I am not happy about the seasons total results, but giving 100% is all I am asking for and not coming out flat or thinking that the first drive TD is amazing and celebrating like you just won the SB (McD this is you).

Feel free to flame away, but I feel that at this point in teh season 8-8 is acceptable.

Jim, what are your thoughts..?

"8-8? 8-8? You kidding me? 8-8? I just hope we win a game!"

BroncoStud
12-02-2010, 12:16 PM
LOL. And yet, you're the expert.

You actually see a LOT more action on TV than you do at Invesco. Watching the game live does not make one an expert as opposed to watching it at home...

I don't go to games anymore, I sit and watch all the games on the NFL Season Ticket. Why watch just 1 game for 3 hours when you can watch 10?

topscribe
12-02-2010, 12:16 PM
Jim, what are your thoughts..?

"8-8? 8-8? You kidding me? 8-8? I just hope we win a game!"

Actually, that comprises thoughts of the players. Just win the next one.

-----

BroncoJoe
12-02-2010, 12:17 PM
Dont bother dude.

Ive gotten used to him just coming out of nowhere making crap comments like that. Some people just cant handle differing opinions on the state of the team so they got to try and make it personal for whatever godly reason.

My comment was probably inappropriate, and for that I apologize.

I realize this is a forum, where people can voice opinions, from ALL perspectives. I also believe it's a shame that many posters that have been around for a long time don't post much anymore because of all the negativity. I'm not an NFL expert - I watch the game for pure enjoyment, and love for my team. Do I particularly like what I'm seeing? Not really. However I also realize I can't change a damn thing, nor do I have the expertise or experience to do so.

Some act like this has been a towering, elite franchise that has been knocked down solely by our current coach. This team has basically been irrelevant since 1998. McDaniel's hasn't destroyed anything that was worth much to begin with. I'm indifferent on him, but based on what I've seen on the field (when you look closer), I wouldn't mind him being back for another year. I'd also like to see a true GM/Personnel guy "helping" him make decisions, primarily on defense.

He's a young dude with a huge (IMO) upside. I don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water.

topscribe
12-02-2010, 12:18 PM
You actually see a LOT more action on TV than you do at Invesco. Watching the game live does not make one an expert as opposed to watching it at home...

I don't go to games anymore, I sit and watch all the games on the NFL Season Ticket. Why watch just 1 game for 3 hours when you can watch 10?

Yes and no. One has the benefit of the analyses of the color man, but the
camera generally follows the ball. If one really wants to evaluate the lines,
for instance, the TV can be rather limiting . . .

-----

BroncoJoe
12-02-2010, 12:19 PM
You actually see a LOT more action on TV than you do at Invesco. Watching the game live does not make one an expert as opposed to watching it at home...

I don't go to games anymore, I sit and watch all the games on the NFL Season Ticket. Why watch just 1 game for 3 hours when you can watch 10?

My comment was taken completely out of context.

JDL
12-02-2010, 12:26 PM
We finish 5-0 down the stretch? Yeah, that's certainly a big step in the right direction as you could sadly win the division with that (you won't because of San Diego and KC will both finish at probably 9-7), but you would sweep KC, beat SD, and take revenge on Oak.... that would be a satisfying finish to the season. I dislike McD, but, if the team responds it responds, and the results are there to some extent... and he is back to .500 as a coach... I doubt it happens, KC is pissed as hell at Denver... you think they aren't going to absolutely punch Denver in the mouth... don't know if respond in Arrowhead in Dec... tough tough environment.

BroncoStud
12-02-2010, 12:41 PM
Yes and no. One has the benefit of the analyses of the color man, but the
camera generally follows the ball. If one really wants to evaluate the lines,
for instance, the TV can be rather limiting . . .

-----

True, but when I go to games I follow the ball as well. One thing you don't see on TV is how Cutler used to stand alone on the sidelines. You can learn a lot about the players through their sideline mannerisms - IMO

topscribe
12-02-2010, 12:42 PM
True, but when I go to games I follow the ball as well. One thing you don't see on TV is how Cutler used to stand alone on the sidelines. You can learn a lot about the players through their sideline mannerisms - IMO

Yes - there are a lot more arguments and fights to see over there, too. :laugh:

-----

TXBRONC
12-02-2010, 12:50 PM
If Denver runs table and finshes 8-8 that's a lot more acceptable than the current trend we are on. We haven't won back to back games in over a year. If we were to finish 8-8 I would just about bet the farm that he will get another year at the very least.

I would be a lot happier with kind of outcome but I would still have grave concerns about McDaniels and direction of this team. Because I don't see that fixing McDaniels inability to work with people. The way he's going about managing the players and the staff will do nothing encourage trust or loyalty. If you can't do that it's almost impossible to develop long term success.

That being said I don't believe he could survive a third straight 8-8 season.

Northman
12-02-2010, 12:58 PM
My comment was probably inappropriate, and for that I apologize.

Accepted. I knew you were better than that.


I realize this is a forum, where people can voice opinions, from ALL perspectives. I also believe it's a shame that many posters that have been around for a long time don't post much anymore because of all the negativity.

Dont know what to tell you in that regard. Do i miss guys like Coachchaz and the such? Yes. But at the same time ive been a fan of this team for a long time through all the ups and downs. Ive been part of Broncos message boards since 2003 and regardless of where the team was good or bad i kept posting. So while i miss those people posting all i can say is for them to grow thicker skin. I know its a bit rash but come on, a lot of people like their postings anyway because as Top would put it, it allows a balance. Its one thing if they are being insulted or picked upon but i dont think thats the case as too why they are leaving. The reality is not everything Bronco related is orange colored glasses and even those who generally have well thought out posts should have to endure the same madness we all do. Simply turning a blind eye and proclaiming this team a success isnt going to make it so. Everyone should have a voice when it comes to their opinions on the state of the team. While it is the boards loss that those individuals dont post anymore its not the boards fault either because it was a choice they made for themselves. If you get my drift.



I'm not an NFL expert - I watch the game for pure enjoyment, and love for my team. Do I particularly like what I'm seeing? Not really. However I also realize I can't change a damn thing, nor do I have the expertise or experience to do so.

But does it really matter? We all watch for enjoyment even in the losses. Its what makes us fans. However, we all (at least most of us) believe we are armchair QB's and that isnt any different than any other team in sports. At the end of the day its just different peoples opinions. When i jump off of this forum i think nothing more about it. I dont let what gets said on here affect my life anyway shape or form. This place is like Vegas, what gets said here stays here.


Some act like this has been a towering, elite franchise that has been knocked down solely by our current coach. This team has basically been irrelevant since 1998. McDaniel's hasn't destroyed anything that was worth much to begin with. I'm indifferent on him, but based on what I've seen on the field (when you look closer), I wouldn't mind him being back for another year. I'd also like to see a true GM/Personnel guy "helping" him make decisions, primarily on defense.

While we may not have been dominate this past decade we were still being far more competitive and winning more games. Although Shanahan's message became stale and it was time to go does not give McDaniels a pass in that regard. Unfortuantely, as you pointed out he has way too much power but there are a slew of other things that are troubling with this young coach in my eyes hence why i dont want to waste anymore time on him. Does what i want actually mean what i get? No. But im just glad that i have a place that i can vent my frustations out otherwise what good is a messageboard?


He's a young dude with a huge (IMO) upside. I don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water.

Maybe, but for me i have yet to see that upside and i guess that is where our differences lie.

TXBRONC
12-02-2010, 10:20 PM
I know a lot of people don't like Woody Paige but I honestly think he's not always in the wrong. Here's the first question from his Mailbag for today.


Woody's Mailbag: McDaniels losing his supporters
Ben from Aurora asks Woody if Josh McDaniels can save his job.
By Woody Paige
The Denver Post
Posted: 12/02/2010 01:00:00 AM MST

Hi, Woody! I enjoyed reading your column on Sunday ("Faith no more for all involved") about Spygate II. I am just old enough to remember the Watergate scandal, and your comparisons were right on the nose. I also love your mailbag (congrats on 100, BTW), and in last week's edition, you wrote: "the total truth is Josh McDaniels has another season in Denver, and there's nothing you, I or anybody else can say that will get Josh fired." How quickly things change! Here's my question: Is there anything Josh McDaniels can do to save his job at the end of this season? I have supported him since he has been here, but after the videotaping story broke, I think it's time to start fresh. Winning and losing is one thing; cheating is on a whole different level. As long as he is here, that stigma will hang over our team.

— Ben, Aurora

Ben: A week ago there was nothing you, I or anybody else could say to get Josh fired. Then, lo and behold, I returned Saturday morning from Lincoln, Neb., and something had been said by the NFL and the Broncos. Everybody knows what happened. On a national conference call with NFL executives, I asked Joe Ellis, COO of the Broncos, if what happened was a fireable offense, and he said: "It is not. No."

But not so fast there, Joe.

There are billowing clouds of smoke hanging over Dove Valley, and the situation has changed dramatically since that last mailbag. Because of what happened with McSpygate, combined with the Broncos' results this season and what went on in McDaniels' first year — if you add it all now — there is a very strong chance that the coach could be fired.

I think he keeps his job with victories over Kansas City, Arizona, Houston and Oakland, and it might take a victory at home over San Diego, as well. An 8-8 record would allow Pat Bowlen, Ellis and McDaniels to say there was vast improvement down the stretch. A 7-9 finish might allow the Broncos' hierarchy to save face and McDaniels to save himself. Losses to K.C., the Raiders and the Chargers, and it's over.

Ellis and Bowlen, Bowlen and Ellis, don't want to take a hit and admit they made a major mistake, and they don't want to take a hit on money. But Ellis used the word "trust" a couple of times in that phone conference, and the Broncos trusted in McDaniels and his decisions, and look what happened. He could have survived with a 6-10 record or so.

But then along came the video dilemma, on top of player personnel decisions, trades, the Peyton Hillis and Jay Cutler successes of this season, and the lack of production from the free-agent signings, particularly on the defensive line. The three defensive linemen were big-cost items. One is gone; one is average and the third is playing well. You can bat .333 in baseball, but not in football.

McDaniels hired his buddy, Steve Scarnecchia, who had been embroiled in the Spygate scandal in New England and then was on the Jets' staff when the Patriots were called out for taping defensive signals. I questioned the (non-publicized) hiring of Scarnecchia after it happened (because I ran across his

name in the new media guide at training camp, and went "hmmm, wasn't he the guy brought up in Congress for being one of the video guys for the Patriots?")

Everybody else in the media, and the Broncos, of course, brushed it off, and nobody paid attention. I thought it was a horrendous move at the time and told McDaniels. What ended up happening, I believe, is that Scarnecchia thought he was doing his pal a favor by taping the 49ers walk-through, and McDaniels, after dinner that night, went all ballistic on him.

McDaniels didn't report it because he didn't want his pal being kicked out of the league, and thought nobody else would know. There were others who were aware, though, and ratted out Scarnecchia because (A) He had broken the integrity rules and (B) He was one of the least popular people out at Dove Valley.

Those who aren't big on McDaniels wanted to oust him and also knew they'd bring down the wrath on McDaniels. Even afterward, when McDaniels held a coaching staff meeting on the matter, someone leaked it to Jay Glazer at Fox Sports and told him what McDaniels said. There's not a lot of loyalty for Josh at Broncos headquarters, and I believe all of that has put Joe Ellis, who had the second hiring interview with McDaniels and was most responsible for his selection, over the edge.

Bowlen has been slow to fire, including both Dan Reeves and Mike Shanahan, and he only fired Wade Phillips because Shanahan became available. Bowlen's not the firing type, although he's become the retiring type this year, rarely saying anything. I think that a majority of people have turned on McDaniels, especially after the Oakland game, or had been against him almost from the beginning, especially after the Cutler debacle.

Those who remained in support of him were like you, Ben. The video violation put them over the edge, or was a convenient reason to say get rid of him. If the Broncos were 8-3 this season, not many people would have cared about what happened. Now, McDaniels is kind of like Nixon in his final days.

The videotape was reminiscent of the tape of Rose Mary Woods, Nixon's secretary. I have told McDaniels on two occasions that his former bosses, Bill Belichick and Nick Saban, could get away with their personalities and their disdain for the public and the press as long as they won, but people would turn on them in a hurry if they lost. That's what's happened here.

http://www.denverpost.com/woodysmailbag/ci_16754902

I Eat Staples
12-02-2010, 10:24 PM
There's only one acceptable answer and I think most of you know what it is.

TXBRONC
12-02-2010, 10:32 PM
There's only one acceptable answer and I think most of you know what it is.

I'm very leery of him being here but I also think finishes with 8-8 record that will give Bowlen reason to keep him for at least one more season.

Dreadnought
12-02-2010, 10:46 PM
Some act like this has been a towering, elite franchise that has been knocked down solely by our current coach. This team has basically been irrelevant since 1998. McDaniel's hasn't destroyed anything that was worth much to begin with. I'm indifferent on him, but based on what I've seen on the field (when you look closer), I wouldn't mind him being back for another year. I'd also like to see a true GM/Personnel guy "helping" him make decisions, primarily on defense.

He's a young dude with a huge (IMO) upside. I don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water.

That kind of sums up the problem. I think the Broncos of the 2000's were frustrating as Hell, but always competitive and always in playoff contention save for 1999. I saw massive potential upside in that 2008 club. They made watching Broncos football enjoyable again, though to be honest my hair went mostly grey from 2006-08, and I blame Plummer, Jim Bates, and Bob Slowick in those consecutive years for that :D.

I watched the Broncs beat the Browns in November 08 sitting in a bar in Orlando FLA with Claymore and Yarddog; the three of us agreed it was the most exciting and flat out fun lineup we had fielded since 1998. Needed work, but all the offensive pieces were in place. I have not really felt all that much of anything about any win or loss since then. Rage over the Raiders losses, but thats about it. I'm either indifferent or furious at all times during the NFL season.

Others don't see it that way; so be it. But that judgement of what we did or did not have in the decade after 1998 will determine almost everything else. I was positive - a damned near wild eyed Optimist once we finally benched Plummer for good.
So is it negativity now? Or passion? Venting?

Final note. There is no baby in that bathwater. A turd in the punchbowl? Yep, but its not a baby.

Bosco
12-02-2010, 11:13 PM
If we finished 8-8 this year, I'd be satisfied. I expect playoffs next year though and anything less should result in Josh being let go.

TXBRONC
12-02-2010, 11:26 PM
That kind of sums up the problem. I think the Broncos of the 2000's were frustrating as Hell, but always competitive and always in playoff contention save for 1999. I saw massive potential upside in that 2008 club. They made watching Broncos football enjoyable again, though to be honest my hair went mostly grey from 2006-08, and I blame Plummer, Jim Bates, and Bob Slowick in those consecutive years for that :D.

I watched the Broncs beat the Browns in November 08 sitting in a bar in Orlando FLA with Claymore and Yarddog; the three of us agreed it was the most exciting and flat out fun lineup we had fielded since 1998. Needed work, but all the offensive pieces were in place. I have not really felt all that much of anything about any win or loss since then. Rage over the Raiders losses, but thats about it. I'm either indifferent or furious at all times during the NFL season.

Others don't see it that way; so be it. But that judgement of what we did or did not have in the decade after 1998 will determine almost everything else. I was positive - a damned near wild eyed Optimist once we finally benched Plummer for good.
So is it negativity now? Or passion? Venting?

Final note. There is no baby in that bathwater. A turd in the punchbowl? Yep, but its not a baby.

I do believe strongly that if we go 8-8 McDaniels saves his job for at least one more season but ultimately I think this will end badly because I don't think he could going through third straight 8-8 season.

Dreadnought
12-02-2010, 11:29 PM
I do believe strongly that if we go 8-8 McDaniels saves his job for at least one more season but ultimately I think this will end badly because I don't think he could going through third straight 8-8 season.

No question IMO that he saves his job with an 8-8 finish, I agree. Odds of that are slim and none however

Northman
12-02-2010, 11:30 PM
I do believe strongly that if we go 8-8 McDaniels saves his job for at least one more season but ultimately I think this will end badly because I don't think he could going through third straight 8-8 season.

I agree except he wont finish 8-8.

TXBRONC
12-02-2010, 11:41 PM
No question IMO that he saves his job with an 8-8 finish, I agree. Odds of that are slim and none however

Another scenario that could work for him is just with a winning record of 4-1 or 3-2 but the team can't blown out of the water.

TXBRONC
12-02-2010, 11:46 PM
I agree except he wont finish 8-8.

I agree it's highly unlikely.

Lancane
12-03-2010, 12:25 AM
Would 8-8 be acceptable? I would have said yes, but I truly feel that McDaniels is detrimental to this organization. He's made too many bad moves that go hand in hand with someone who has a major egotistical problem. And it seems, at least in my eyes that he hasn't learned from them, he continues to make more and more.

If the organization wanted to make this placate-able, 8-8 would be a solid start, but only that. I'd want to see them hire a true General Manager, someone a bit old-school that will not put up with McDaniels bullshit or tantrums, and lastly...I would like to hear McDaniels humbled, having to apologize to the Bronco fans around the world about how he's handled things poorly, that he plans to do better. If not...then fire his F'n ass!

Jake Klug
12-03-2010, 12:29 AM
Would 8-8 be acceptable? I would have said yes, but I truly feel that McDaniels is detrimental to this organization. He's made too many bad moves that go hand in hand with someone who has a major egotistical problem. And it seems, at least in my eyes that he hasn't learned from them, he continues to make more and more.

If the organization wanted to make this placate-able, 8-8 would be a solid start, but only that. I'd want to see them hire a true General Manager, someone a bit old-school that will not put up with McDaniels bullshit or tantrums, and lastly...I would like to hear McDaniels humbled, having to apologize to the Bronco fans around the world about how he's handled things poorly, that he plans to do better. If not...then fire his F'n ass!

Why not just say that there would have to be some form of corporal punishment involved?

Northman
12-03-2010, 12:31 AM
I would have said yes, but I truly feel that McDaniels is detrimental to this organization.

This is my feeling as well. The video controversy was the last straw for me with him not coming to NFL with the info until someone told on him. It just reeks of sneakiness and i have no tolerance for that. Add that too the attitude problems with his assistant coaches and former players and its just too much that this team doesnt need.

Lancane
12-03-2010, 12:39 AM
Why not just say that there would have to be some form of corporal punishment involved?

They can cane his ass in public for all I care, but I think that what I stated above is important if they do somehow go 8-8 and want to placate the fanbase some.

jhildebrand
12-03-2010, 12:41 AM
8-8 is unacceptable. McDaniels came he prepared to win and said he would win. This team was 24-24 prior to his arrival. Being .500 is part of why Shanahan was fired.

McDaniels made his moves, his coaching hires and fires, and had his drafts. It either is progressing or it isn't. I don't see it and I think giving him a 3rd year is akin to giving Dan Hawkins additional time when it was clear he is who we thought he was.

G_Money
12-03-2010, 12:42 AM
8-8 would be great for many people, Bowlen and McDaniels prime among them.

I no longer believe Josh can be a good enough leader of men to go anywhere, so for me it's not important, but 5 wins in a row would be evidence that runs counter to that belief. I'd love to see some things I could put on the "Josh might get his head out from betwixt his butt-cheeks" side of the ledger.

Also, Satan shivering and winged bacon are two of the things I've wanted to see before I die, so it has side benefits as well.

~G

jhildebrand
12-03-2010, 12:44 AM
Would 8-8 be acceptable? I would have said yes, but I truly feel that McDaniels is detrimental to this organization. He's made too many bad moves that go hand in hand with someone who has a major egotistical problem. And it seems, at least in my eyes that he hasn't learned from them, he continues to make more and more.

If the organization wanted to make this placate-able, 8-8 would be a solid start, but only that. I'd want to see them hire a true General Manager, someone a bit old-school that will not put up with McDaniels bullshit or tantrums, and lastly...I would like to hear McDaniels humbled, having to apologize to the Bronco fans around the world about how he's handled things poorly, that he plans to do better. If not...then fire his F'n ass!

I don't need an apology. I just want to see him allow someone else to come in and help in the form of a true GM. If that GM wants new coordinators, than so be it. If McD can't agree to that than it would be clear he is putting his wants and needs above the teams.

I think McD is a heck of a coach. I just think he has had way too much power and responsibility (I have said that since almost day 1).

jhildebrand
12-03-2010, 12:45 AM
It doesn't matter because KC will d-e-s-t-r-o-y us!

Then the posts will be, if McD can go 4-0 in the final quarter, etc. :lol:

Lancane
12-03-2010, 12:45 AM
8-8 is unacceptable. McDaniels came he prepared to win and said he would win. This team was 24-24 prior to his arrival. Being .500 is part of why Shanahan was fired.

McDaniels made his moves, his coaching hires and fires, and had his drafts. It either is progressing or it isn't. I don't see it and I think giving him a 3rd year is akin to giving Dan Hawkins additional time when it was clear he is who we thought he was.

That's why I stipulated the rest of what needed to be done, and that would only buy him the third year. I feel the same way you do, first off...we're not going to win out the remaining five contests, that's near impossible with this squad...but if we did, then there has to be some major ass-kissing going on and changes that need to be made to make it even swallow-able to the fans, that's asking a lot in my opinion.

As of now, I believe he remains a bigger cancer to this organization then any prima-donna player could have been.

Bosco
12-03-2010, 02:21 AM
I don't need an apology. I just want to see him allow someone else to come in and help in the form of a true GM. If that GM wants new coordinators, than so be it. If McD can't agree to that than it would be clear he is putting his wants and needs above the teams.

I think McD is a heck of a coach. I just think he has had way too much power and responsibility (I have said that since almost day 1).

Would you still be pissed about his GM duties if he comes away from this draft with at least two legitimate DL prospects and maybe a safety?

BCJ
12-03-2010, 04:57 AM
Yes, as of right now it is acceptable and what i expected at the beginning of the season. But saying that, these 5 games would need to show me that Josh can manage a game from beg. to end, come back if we are gettting blown out, not be outcoached, put in some plays or players that work, etc. Beating up on our division rivals would be what the fan base ordered.

Dzone
12-03-2010, 06:45 AM
Man, 8-8 this year might be considered an accomplishment. A worse recrd than last year can only be called a failure.
Mcdaniels has flaws that dont get corrected easly, #1 being that he has very poor people skills. Also, there has been rumors that he is a bully.
Show me a winning coach, and I will show you a person with good people skills. Mcdaniels should be relieved of his duties asap to stop the hemorrhaging.
He isnt cut out for the job.

TXBRONC
12-03-2010, 07:46 AM
Would 8-8 be acceptable? I would have said yes, but I truly feel that McDaniels is detrimental to this organization. He's made too many bad moves that go hand in hand with someone who has a major egotistical problem. And it seems, at least in my eyes that he hasn't learned from them, he continues to make more and more.

If the organization wanted to make this placate-able, 8-8 would be a solid start, but only that. I'd want to see them hire a true General Manager, someone a bit old-school that will not put up with McDaniels bullshit or tantrums, and lastly...I would like to hear McDaniels humbled, having to apologize to the Bronco fans around the world about how he's handled things poorly, that he plans to do better. If not...then fire his F'n ass!

Bad personnel moves are imo easier to overcome than losing the trust and respect of your staff. The fact he has people going to the press about confidential meetings and someone willing to out him to the owner about illegal taping of an opponent's walk through is deeper problem than bad player personnel moves.

spikerman
12-03-2010, 07:59 AM
Would you still be pissed about his GM duties if he comes away from this draft with at least two legitimate DL prospects and maybe a safety?

If he did that I would have to ask wtf he was doing the past two years. It's one thing if he doesn't have the ability to judge talent (which is what I think the problem is), it's even worse if he does have that ability, but has been purposely neglecting quality defensive talent even though he recognized it.

TXBRONC
12-03-2010, 08:28 AM
I don't need an apology. I just want to see him allow someone else to come in and help in the form of a true GM. If that GM wants new coordinators, than so be it. If McD can't agree to that than it would be clear he is putting his wants and needs above the teams.

I think McD is a heck of a coach. I just think he has had way too much power and responsibility (I have said that since almost day 1).

I'm not sold on McDaniels as a coach. From all accounts he's very intelligent but I think his play calling has left a lot to be desired. Case in point, against the Rams running game was working Moreno had something like 8 carries for 50 yards or so going into the second quarter but then he abandoned the run why? Imho that's not good play calling.

TXBRONC
12-03-2010, 08:44 AM
If he did that I would have to ask wtf he was doing the past two years. It's one thing if he doesn't have the ability to judge talent (which is what I think the problem is), it's even worse if he does have that ability, but has been purposely neglecting quality defensive talent even though he recognized it.

I read somewhere that McDaniels has been given good advice on players but he's overly focused character and has on passed on better talent just because of character.

Cugel
12-03-2010, 11:34 AM
For me, nothing about McDaniels is acceptable. Our record isn't even important anymore.

That's pretty much how I feel too. But Bowlen clearly does not. If the Broncos were to win out (Ha!) then Bowlen would seize on that as an excuse to keep McDaniels around for another year.

Also 1/2 the fans that loved McDaniels until a few weeks ago would instantly jump back on the ship of fools.

The problem with all this is that a winning streak isn't going to change the long-term outcome. It was clear to clear-headed people even BEFORE last season that there were things seriously wrong with McDaniels as a coach.

His player personnel decisions uniformly sucked.

That just isn't going to change. He went on a 6 game winning streak last year after all, and that changed nothing. Why would a 5 game winning streak now be any more meaningful now?

He'll just revert back to form and lose a bunch more games NEXT season and make even WORSE player personnel decisions that will set the franchise back for even MORE years.

It's like an addicted gambler who gets a few lucky hands and wins a pot or two. That's NOT going to alter the end result at all. He's still going to wind up broke in the end. :coffee:

Ravage!!!
12-03-2010, 11:39 AM
Some have said they think he's a good coach that should have the GM duties. I understood this with Shanahan, because he could/would compete and have winning teams despite the lack of drafted talent on the team.

But WHAT has McD done that has shown to be a good coach? Anything? Offense, defense, special teams, player relations, team relations,..... wins? Where is the good coaching? What about our team says "yay?"

I personally haven't seen a single thing about what he's done that makes me think, for a moment, that he's a good coach. Nothing.

Cugel
12-03-2010, 11:45 AM
I read somewhere that McDaniels has been given good advice on players but he's overly focused character and has on passed on better talent just because of character.

It's not "character" it's that he's arrogant and thinks too much of his own opinions. He doesn't really listen to people. He just likes to hear people who flatter his own ideas and preconceptions.

He's always right. Everybody who disagrees with him is always wrong. And that's just how it is. He'll NEVER change because that's his basic personality. You started to see it in how he handled the Cutler situation. He simply couldn't accept any blame and refused to back down or apologize after the Cassel trade blew up in his face.

There are, after all, millions of people just like him all over the world.

If you're unlucky you've probably worked for one or more of them. Bosses who love to ride everybody and aren't happy unless every one of their subordinates is living in constant fear. And then they get to ride around purely satisfied because they've ground everybody else's nose in WHO'S THE BOSS!


They're the guys who have a "The Boss Is Right Even When He's Wrong!" sign in their office. They're the ones who actually ENJOY a good fight. They get OFF on conflict and "beating" other people.

In a competitive field like the NFL you've got to have a drive to win, but that opens the door to coaches who like to "win" over their own employees and players.

You can see this in the reactions of his assistant coaches. There's ZERO loyalty there with coaches "inside the Broncos organization" gleefully taking their revenge for brow-beating and humiliation by leaking stories to the press.

If they're willing to risk their jobs just to make McDaniels look bad, imagine how low morale must be among the coaching staff.

You must have noticed how INSINCERE McDaniels' press conferences are where he "takes responsibility" for failure. It's clear that he doesn't really believe a word of it. In his mind he's just going through a necessary routine, but in his heart, it's really SOMEBODY ELSE'S FAULT. :coffee:

jhildebrand
12-03-2010, 12:14 PM
Would you still be pissed about his GM duties if he comes away from this draft with at least two legitimate DL prospects and maybe a safety?

Fair question. I would probably be upset going into the draft just based on the fact that he still has the authority he does knowing he has a sketchy record from the past two year's drafts. However, were he to draft to DL and a LB or S, I might change my mind. It would depend on how they were drafted and where. If he spends a 3rd, 4th, and 6th-NO. But if he spent high picks and maneuvered like he did with Tebow and built up some nice mid to late 1st and second round picks and used them on D. I would be willing to see what those players turn out to be like.

I would also want to see him drafting players that are more likely to fit this system as opposed to trying to fit them i.e. Ayers.

The problem for McDaniels is DL take time to grow and mature in this league. Even the best i.e. Ngata take a couple of seasons and some more like Mario Williams. That's why McDaniels would have done himself more favors in the 09 draft to go heavy on D early and often. Those guys would be blossoming right now.

jhildebrand
12-03-2010, 12:21 PM
But WHAT has McD done that has shown to be a good coach? Anything?

I guess I have seen a guy completely dismantle a powerful, young offense and rebuild it in a matter of a season and a half. He even did it with castoffs and scrubs like Lloyd and Gaffney respectively. Now that might not be saying much but I think it can be huge. The 45 million that would have gone to Marshall, doesn't necessarily have to now. That is a lot of money to throw elsewhere. I didn't like the Marshall move but I have to live with it. It is one of the few moves McD made that has gone ok.

Seeing him now enlightened and scripting drives that blow teams back is nice as well. It reminds me of our SB teams. They would march down the field on their first two drives and before the other team could blink it would be 14-0.

Maybe I am being a bit too optimistic but I feel like if a real GM could be brought in, and I am talking an old school hardnosed guy like Thompson/AJ Smith/Ron Wolfe who has final say, maybe Josh can focus on being just the head coach. Maybe with that extra time and separation from being the guy who drafted the player and is now coaching him will allow him to grow as a coach and focus more on winning games. I just think it will free him up to a degree to focus on what matters. Now if the GM brought in two coordinators-and they will be out there this offseason-then all the better.

arapaho2
12-03-2010, 12:59 PM
I guess I have seen a guy completely dismantle a powerful, young offense and rebuild it in a matter of a season and a half. He even did it with castoffs and scrubs like Lloyd and Gaffney respectively. Now that might not be saying much but I think it can be huge. The 45 million that would have gone to Marshall, doesn't necessarily have to now. That is a lot of money to throw elsewhere. I didn't like the Marshall move but I have to live with it. It is one of the few moves McD made that has gone ok.

Seeing him now enlightened and scripting drives that blow teams back is nice as well. It reminds me of our SB teams. They would march down the field on their first two drives and before the other team could blink it would be 14-0.

Maybe I am being a bit too optimistic but I feel like if a real GM could be brought in, and I am talking an old school hardnosed guy like Thompson/AJ Smith/Ron Wolfe who has final say, maybe Josh can focus on being just the head coach. Maybe with that extra time and separation from being the guy who drafted the player and is now coaching him will allow him to grow as a coach and focus more on winning games. I just think it will free him up to a degree to focus on what matters. Now if the GM brought in two coordinators-and they will be out there this offseason-then all the better.

we had a young and powerful offense being run by a 3rd year qb...a rookie LT, WR, RB (with 6 others on IR) two first year starters on oline ...a third yr #1wr and TE....all young all inexpirienced for the most part...in thier first season together...

he dismantled it

and made it worse...

and sure we dont have to pay marshall...and it worked out because of lyod...until you factor in llyods gonna need a new contract this season
and right now he's the leading wr in the entire league...over even andre johnson
leading in
ypg
total yards
tied 3rd in tds
#1 in 40+ plays
#1 in 20+ plays
93.1% of rec are for 1st downs

the mans gonna wanna get paid too !!

as for scripting...yes he has down it in the last three games...and just like the superbowl teams we get out to early leads...but in two of those he quickly took himself away from what worked or couldnt adjust to what the defense did

unlike the forementioned teams that continued to pour it on until a sizable lead was gotten

he isnt a good coach at all

BORDERLINE
12-03-2010, 01:44 PM
if they do finish 8-8 it will be nothing short of a miracle.

this team is not really good.and will have a hard time winning these next games.

arizona is the only game where we have a good shot to win.

8-8, i will take it in a heart beat, but there would have to be major improvements in these next 5 weeks for me too cool the fire McD talks.

Ravage!!!
12-03-2010, 01:59 PM
I guess I have seen a guy completely dismantle a powerful, young offense and rebuild it in a matter of a season and a half. He even did it with castoffs and scrubs like Lloyd and Gaffney respectively. Now that might not be saying much but I think it can be huge. The 45 million that would have gone to Marshall, doesn't necessarily have to now. That is a lot of money to throw elsewhere. I didn't like the Marshall move but I have to live with it. It is one of the few moves McD made that has gone ok.

Seeing him now enlightened and scripting drives that blow teams back is nice as well. It reminds me of our SB teams. They would march down the field on their first two drives and before the other team could blink it would be 14-0.

Maybe I am being a bit too optimistic but I feel like if a real GM could be brought in, and I am talking an old school hardnosed guy like Thompson/AJ Smith/Ron Wolfe who has final say, maybe Josh can focus on being just the head coach. Maybe with that extra time and separation from being the guy who drafted the player and is now coaching him will allow him to grow as a coach and focus more on winning games. I just think it will free him up to a degree to focus on what matters. Now if the GM brought in two coordinators-and they will be out there this offseason-then all the better.

I don't think McD is bogged down the details. Thats the GM job duties of Xander. He's taking care of the minute details during the season.

I guess we'll just have to disagree. I see our offense scoring on the scripted plays, and then get pretty much shut out after that.

Marshall is absolutely missed... look at the 3rd down conversion rate of this offense. Its horrendous. I'm still confused how this team is better with Gaffney over Marshall (and I say that, because it wouldn't be a choice between Lloyd and Marshall, both would be on the field).

This offense is horrendous. The defense is horrendous, and special teams, are bad. I just don't see anything taht the coach is doing, that is making an improvement on this team.

jhildebrand
12-03-2010, 02:00 PM
we had a young and powerful offense being run by a 3rd year qb...a rookie LT, WR, RB (with 6 others on IR) two first year starters on oline ...a third yr #1wr and TE....all young all inexpirienced for the most part...in thier first season together...

he dismantled it

and made it worse...

and sure we dont have to pay marshall...and it worked out because of lyod...until you factor in llyods gonna need a new contract this season
and right now he's the leading wr in the entire league...over even andre johnson
leading in
ypg
total yards
tied 3rd in tds
#1 in 40+ plays
#1 in 20+ plays
93.1% of rec are for 1st downs

the mans gonna wanna get paid too !!

Maybe this is dumb but I don't think Lloyd wants to go anywhere else unless McD ends up gone. He has basically failed everywhere else and he knows this system will keep him paid but nowhere near the level of Marshall or Andre.



as for scripting...yes he has down it in the last three games...and just like the superbowl teams we get out to early leads...but in two of those he quickly took himself away from what worked or couldnt adjust to what the defense did

unlike the forementioned teams that continued to pour it on until a sizable lead was gotten

he isnt a good coach at all

Again, I am simply offering a possibilty here. I think if McDaniels has fewer responsibilities to where he can focus on one thing-being HC- he MIGHT change.

Personally, he doesn't strike me as a guy who will change. I could be wrong but I was simply offering up a possibility in the realm of infinite possibilities :D

jhildebrand
12-03-2010, 02:05 PM
I don't think McD is bogged down the details. Thats the GM job duties of Xander. He's taking care of the minute details during the season.

Fair enough. I don't see it as bogged down in the details as much as I do drunk with power and the inability to see straight because of that when it comes to drafting.



I guess we'll just have to disagree. I see our offense scoring on the scripted plays, and then get pretty much shut out after that.

That's why I think some things could change. You can't tell me that this team couldn't score on their second drives against St Lou or SD duplicating their first drive in their entirety. I just don't believe it. That's why I think he can change. Maybe he will have time to step back and see what we all see that those second posessions don't have to have him trying to throw it deep 3 plays in a row.



Marshall is absolutely missed... look at the 3rd down conversion rate of this offense. Its horrendous. I'm still confused how this team is better with Gaffney over Marshall (and I say that, because it wouldn't be a choice between Lloyd and Marshall, both would be on the field).


Agreed. At the end of the day I still want Marshall here. I am simply saying that from a production standpoint our WR as a corp is much more productive. I am not saying I like it but that is one area he dismantled and seems to have done well rebuilding. Granted the rebuilding isn't done and what happens is anyone's guess. It would be nice if Brandon Marshall II-DT-Glass Gina- could do something worth while.



This offense is horrendous. The defense is horrendous, and special teams, are bad. I just don't see anything taht the coach is doing, that is making an improvement on this team.

Again, why I want a full time GM here. One who has final say on ANYTHING. If we are sticking to the 34 get Wade's ass in here on D. Get me a real OC. That is the only way I would stomach another year from McD. I would stomach it but my wallet and bank account would continue to maintain their frozen status :D

Cugel
12-03-2010, 02:11 PM
Maybe I am being a bit too optimistic but I feel like if a real GM could be brought in, and I am talking an old school hardnosed guy like Thompson/AJ Smith/Ron Wolfe who has final say, maybe Josh can focus on being just the head coach.

That's exactly what everybody said after Shanahan was fired too. And Bowlen refused to do it! He refused because he wanted a new, younger Shanahan!

So, he picked McDaniels whom he (wrongly) assumed would dazzle everybody with his brilliance. He gave the guy complete control over all player personnel decisions.

Ellis and Xanders are financial guys, with no more authority over player personnel moves than Ted Sundquist had.

This is McDaniels' show from A to Z. And it's entirely his failure too.

He can't look to anybody else to explain it away. He had total power and total responsibility from day 1. :coffee:

The $1 billion question is: "Has Bowlen learned his lesson? Or is he going to go out and hire another coach and give HIM total power over player personnel?" because that's just how he operates and because he just doesn't learn from his mistakes.

Seems like he's like the Bourbon Dynasty of France: "they never learn and they never forget."

jhildebrand
12-03-2010, 02:18 PM
That's exactly what everybody said after Shanahan was fired too. And Bowlen refused to do it! He refused because he wanted a new, younger Shanahan!

So, he picked McDaniels whom he (wrongly) assumed would dazzle everybody with his brilliance. He gave the guy complete control over all player personnel decisions.

Ellis and Xanders are financial guys, with no more authority over player personnel moves than Ted Sundquist had.

This is McDaniels' show from A to Z. And it's entirely his failure too.

He can't look to anybody else to explain it away. He had total power and total responsibility from day 1. :coffee:

The $1 billion question is: "Has Bowlen learned his lesson? Or is he going to go out and hire another coach and give HIM total power over player personnel?" because that's just how he operates and because he just doesn't learn from his mistakes.

Seems like he's like the Bourbon Dynasty of France: "they never learn and they never forget."

I agree completely. I am still anti mcdaniels as much as it gets. I am only offering one possibility that would placate me in the slightest.

If the GM thing could be done it could help make any transition to a new coach less turbulent in that subtle changes could be made now whereas if we simply fire McD we could be looking at a new HC coming in here and doing another 85% roster overhaul taking another 2 seasons minimum.

At the end of the day that requires a change in the philosophy at the ownership level. Philosophical changes can be the hardest. I am not sure it will happen.

I just know I don't want another season, let alone game, with things as the status quo around here as they are!

I Eat Staples
12-03-2010, 03:15 PM
I'm very leery of him being here but I also think finishes with 8-8 record that will give Bowlen reason to keep him for at least one more season.

That's why I have mixed feelings about this season. I want the Broncos to win, but if we somehow go 8-8 and McD stays, then we set ourselves back even further. Any success McD might have from this point on is simply fluke.


Would you still be pissed about his GM duties if he comes away from this draft with at least two legitimate DL prospects and maybe a safety?

Yes.

Day1BroncoFan
12-03-2010, 04:40 PM
At this point 8-8 looks better than anything else that could happen but it isn't good enough.

A strong finish would make me happier than a colapse but still 8-8 doesn't cut it.

Krugan
12-03-2010, 05:20 PM
Im on the no boat as well.

I really sat back and thought about this(sad as that is) but I cant see where 8-8 is worthy.

A coach was fired for not getting above that mark. The new coach recieved an 8-8 team and proceeded to duplicate 8-8 while breaking it apart.

And now we have this, I dont even know what to call it.

Maybe next season with a whole new crop of coaches, then getting to 8-8 would be good, at least it showed growth. But it wasnt acceptable before, at least to ownership, why should it be now?

BroncoJoe
12-03-2010, 05:23 PM
we had a young and powerful offense

Stopped reading after that. 100% wrong.

claymore
12-03-2010, 06:12 PM
Stopped reading after that. 100% wrong.

You're angry with Cutler because he has all that hair and doesnt style it. Admit it.

BroncoBJ
12-03-2010, 07:14 PM
Last year, our 2-8 finish was a preview for this years 3 win season at this point and horrible start :fight:

So a 5-0 finish will hopefully be a preview for next year ;)

:elefant:

jhildebrand
12-03-2010, 10:02 PM
Last year, our 2-8 finish was a preview for this years 3 win season at this point and horrible start :fight:

So a 5-0 finish will hopefully be a preview for next year ;)

:elefant:

Funny thing is I was flamed for saying a team's streak can and usually does carry over from one season to the next. I think I even referenced KC finishing strong and us not being likely to continue.

To take it even further, I think this slide is going to continue. I see one maybe 2 wins left at best (depending on if SD can rest their starters in the finale).

I Eat Staples
12-03-2010, 10:31 PM
Stopped reading after that. 100% wrong.

So if you took over a team with a top 10 offense and one of the worst defenses known to man, the first thing you'd do is a complete remodeling of the offense?

At least there's one NFL team that would hire you...

BroncoBJ
12-04-2010, 01:15 AM
Funny thing is I was flamed for saying a team's streak can and usually does carry over from one season to the next. I think I even referenced KC finishing strong and us not being likely to continue.

To take it even further, I think this slide is going to continue. I see one maybe 2 wins left at best (depending on if SD can rest their starters in the finale).

Yea, After last season, I was thinking that it might carry over to the next season. I was hoping I was wrong. So I'm hoping we can win out. :elefant: Don't see it happening though but would like to finish strong for once.