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itsalloverfatman
12-01-2010, 10:16 AM
Debunktion Junction Comes To Adam Schein’s County (http://onemanfootball.com/2010/11/30/debunktion-junction-comes-to-adam-scheins-county/)

Ted Bartlett Monday Night Thoughts 7 Comments

I’m a total multitasker, and technology has made me worse. Twitter is one of my diversions at times, and I’d say I use it very sporadically, unlike a lot of people who use it all day. Today, I was relaxing in my bathroom, taking care of some things, you know how it is, and I fired up the old Tweetdeck on my iPhone 4 to let my mind have something to do. I happened across the following Tweet from my good pal Adam Schein.

There’s a link there, which we’ll get to in due course. First, a little about Brother Schein. He’s a radio guy, and he writes like one. His tone is confrontational and hyperbolic, his language is basic, the concepts he presents are often oversimplified, and not much attention is paid to evidence. It’s like reading a radio show. I’m way too nuanced to ever be a radio guy, so I shouldn’t and don’t knock their skills in that medium, I really just choose to listen, or not. It’s sort of like why you don’t see the GZA out freestyling on street-corners; his genius comes from somewhere different than random and basic in-the-moment emotional hollering.

Anyway, Schein works for Sirius, and I had an unexepectedly good customer service experience with them this morning, so he’s got that going for him. I also attended the 2008 Pro Football Hall of Fame ceremony with a guy named Matt (last name intentionally withheld, because I don’t know if he wants to be publicly known). Matt was an executive producer for Sirius Sports, and he was a really cool guy, who was from the same hometown as Schein, and took up for him, when I said that I thought Adam sucked. (Matt from Sirius is a friend of Matt_R who used to frequent MHR, if you know him.)

On Saturday, I battled it out on Twitter with a Sirius producer named Nick Kostos, who didn’t turn out to be such a bad guy, despite thinking that his powers of wild-ass speculation were greater than the NFL’s ability to investigate the Broncos’ recent video episode. And finally, Schein knows who I am, and has read this site. I’ve hit a lot of MSM people for saying stupid things over the years, and usually I just get grumpy/stupid Direct Messages on Twitter like these:

Yeah… she really told me. BOO-YAH!!!! Schein, though, openly tweeted me once to tell me he liked this site, which, while I didn’t really believe him, I appreciated. I mean, I slammed him violently the last time I wrote about him here. It’s easy to think that when your readership amounts to a few thousand Broncos fans, that the MSM guys you’re hitting don’t hear the tree fall in the woods. This experience has chastened me some, at least with Adam Schein, and has given me an idea. I m going to operate as if he’s not a bad guy, and as if his utter wrongness is just a function of a lack of knowledge and perspective. In other words, I’m going to try to educate him on the Denver Broncos, which I clearly know a lot better than he does. Sounds like fun, right?

Continued at OMF (http://onemanfootball.com/2010/11/30/debunktion-junction-comes-to-adam-scheins-county/)

Dreadnought
12-01-2010, 10:31 AM
I've read some good stuff at IAOFM, but this piece from OMF left me cold. I simply think he's wrong on virtually all points

G_Money
12-01-2010, 11:25 AM
If only I had an hour to do to his article what he did to the other guy's.

~G

TXBRONC
12-01-2010, 11:31 AM
I've read some good stuff at IAOFM, but this piece from OMF left me cold. I simply think he's wrong on virtually all points

To say the least.

TXBRONC
12-01-2010, 11:32 AM
If only I had an hour to do to his article what he did to the other guy's.

~G

Well if you can find an hour or do it piece meal I would still like see what you have to say.

Dreadnought
12-01-2010, 11:35 AM
Well if you can find an hour or do it piece meal I would still like see what you have to say.

Agreed. ~G can dissect and dismantle a football argument better'n most anyone, and its fun to read it when he does.

TXBRONC
12-01-2010, 11:44 AM
Agreed. ~G can dissect and dismantle a football argument better'n most anyone, and its fun to read it when he does.

Yeah it's writing equivalent giving someone a colostomy without anything to deaden the pain.

NightTrainLayne
12-01-2010, 12:02 PM
Good grief. I don't even have the time to read the whole thing, much less the other post linked, and Schein's piece.

Where do these folks find the time?

Dreadnought
12-01-2010, 12:05 PM
Good grief. I don't even have the time to read the whole thing, much less the other post linked, and Schein's peice.

Where do these folks find the time?

Don't you have someone in your employ that you pay to read Xtra-long pieces like that? If not you should. Have him compose an executive summary

NightTrainLayne
12-01-2010, 12:08 PM
Don't you have someone in your employ that you pay to read Xtra-long pieces like that? If not you should. Have him compose an executive summary

Oh. . .you mean a Joe Ellis type? I'm worried that if I did that before long I would appear to be out of touch with my business and customer base.

:D

TXBRONC
12-01-2010, 12:10 PM
Oh. . .you mean a Joe Ellis type? I'm worried that if I did that before long I would appear to be out of touch with my business and customer base.

:D

Worse yet it might be speculated that you have lose of memory and that you're a lush. :D

topscribe
12-01-2010, 12:39 PM
Converse to Schein's piece, Ted Bartlett documented his article well. I have
followed him from deep into the days of MHR and have found him especially
perspicacious and knowledgeable. Schein's article did have some influence on
me, and I grateful for Bartlett's rebuttal.

-----

Fan in Exile
12-01-2010, 12:49 PM
I've read G's, Dread's and Ted's stuff. Contrary to the love that they're getting because of a shared hatred of McD it would be Ted getting the Cholostomy, it would be them. You guys are far to emotional and blinded by that emotion, whereas Ted has spent enough time writing about the entire league that he uses all the facts.

Don't get me wrong I would still read G's rebuttal, but I'm guessing Ted's response would just be pointing out the things about our system G doesn't understand and the good points he ignored.

G_Money
12-01-2010, 12:58 PM
The guy who pats himself on the back for being right every other paragraph is the Joe Friday just-the-facts type? :lol:

I guess I'll have to take your word for that, because that's not how I read his.

There's nothing wrong with being emotional and sports-talky, but let's not call it something it isn't. That was an agenda article with its own slant. By definition a rebuttal is, otherwise he would have pointed out and underscored the good parts of the article that he agreed with.

Unless the article had zero good points. It wasn't an even-handed assessment of the argument, it was a "you're an idiot for thinking this" piece, complete with self-congratulations and bonus points for extra smarts.

If that's what unbiased, factual assessment has come to...wow.

~G

Fan in Exile
12-01-2010, 01:23 PM
The guy who pats himself on the back for being right every other paragraph is the Joe Friday just-the-facts type? :lol:

I guess I'll have to take your word for that, because that's not how I read his.

There's nothing wrong with being emotional and sports-talky, but let's not call it something it isn't. That was an agenda article with its own slant. By definition a rebuttal is, otherwise he would have pointed out and underscored the good parts of the article that he agreed with.

Unless the article had zero good points. It wasn't an even-handed assessment of the argument, it was a "you're an idiot for thinking this" piece, complete with self-congratulations and bonus points for extra smarts.

If that's what unbiased, factual assessment has come to...wow.

~G

See G, that's what I'm talking about you not understanding stuff. Ted's got his schtick about thinking the MSM are idiots, just like every writer has his perspective. That's doesn't change the fact that what he writes has a broader less biased perspective than what you write. You didn't address the points he brought up you just attacked his person, when that's all you can pull off, he would beat you like a drum.

G_Money
12-01-2010, 01:37 PM
*laughs* I still haven't posted a rebuttal to the article. If I start I won't stop and I have actual work to do.

If I ever reply to his article, you'll know it. Don't worry. :beer:

~G

Northman
12-01-2010, 01:39 PM
*laughs* I still haven't posted a rebuttal to the article. If I start I won't stop and I have actual work to do.

If I ever reply to his article, you'll know it. Don't worry. :beer:

~G

Ill wait. You always have good stuff. :D:salute:

NightTrainLayne
12-01-2010, 02:14 PM
See G, that's what I'm talking about you not understanding stuff. Ted's got his schtick about thinking the MSM are idiots, just like every writer has his perspective. That's doesn't change the fact that what he writes has a broader less biased perspective than what you write. You didn't address the points he brought up you just attacked his person, when that's all you can pull off, he would beat you like a drum.

I have to say, whenever I disagree with G's logic I know I am on shaky ground. Doesn't mean I don't ever disagree with G, but if I think his logic is flawed, then I have to re-check mine.

G is probably my most respected poster on these boards in terms of football analysis. I don't always agree with him, but nobody, and I mean nobody, is going to "beat him like a drum" in a debate.

topscribe
12-01-2010, 03:22 PM
I have to say, whenever I disagree with G's logic I know I am on shaky ground. Doesn't mean I don't ever disagree with G, but if I think his logic is flawed, then I have to re-check mine.

G is probably my most respected poster on these boards in terms of football analysis. I don't always agree with him, but nobody, and I mean nobody, is going to "beat him like a drum" in a debate.

Sometimes I disagree with G, but I have learned to respect his posts because
they are generally always well founded and thought out . . .

-----

Northman
12-01-2010, 03:23 PM
I think mine are the best posts so screw you all.

Fan in Exile
12-01-2010, 03:34 PM
I have to say, whenever I disagree with G's logic I know I am on shaky ground. Doesn't mean I don't ever disagree with G, but if I think his logic is flawed, then I have to re-check mine.

G is probably my most respected poster on these boards in terms of football analysis. I don't always agree with him, but nobody, and I mean nobody, is going to "beat him like a drum" in a debate.

Nothing like being in a small pond...

G_Money
12-01-2010, 03:34 PM
Problems I have with this "rebuttal article:



McDaniels deserves to be fired for sheer incompetence, for awful people skills that have caused talent to leave the building, for some of the worst personnel decisions in the past two years, for losing games at a rapid rate.

This isn’t about whether McDaniels reported Scarnecchia in a timely fashion.

This is about McDaniels single-handedly ruining one of the best franchises in the NFL.

The Josh McDaniels era (actually, let’s go with the Josh McDaniels error) has been two years of slipping on a banana peel, showing he has no clue how to run an organization. It has been an absolute comedy of errors since he walked into the building.

Hello again! How much wrong can fit in one section? What talent left the building due to his people skills? Talent like this?

a. Jay Cutler – A petulant but talented jerk, who has continued to be that in Chicago, by all reports, and throws the ball to his opponents way too much, especially in the scoring area. Outperformed individually by his replacement Kyle Orton, without any question.

b. Brandon Marshall – An immature but talented player, who is one mistake from missing a big part of a season to a suspension. Outperformed individually by his replacement Brandon Lloyd, by an even wider margin than Orton-Cutler.

c. Tony Scheffler - A wildly overrated clown who was heard in the locker room saying that he couldn’t wait for last season to end, while the Broncos still had a shot at making the Playoffs. This was reported to Josh McDaniels by leaders among the players, and that’s what led to the suspension for the last game of last season. On the field, Scheffler fumbled, dropped passes, and missed blocks frequently, and he’s done nothing very noteworthy in Detroit.

The original article stated the bold part. The "refutation" names three players and runs them down. Nolan is talent that has left the building. So is Dennison. So is Turner. That all comes up again later, so we'll get into it more then. And the concern with replacing Cutler, Marshall, Scheffler, Hillis, etc isn't that the replacements might be as good. It's what buying the replacements costs us vs. the delta between their skills and those of the original players. Scheffler still catches passes, Marshall still catches a ton of balls while being double-covered, and Cutler is the QB of an 8-3 team with a 90+ QB rating despite his tendency to throw picks.

If I have Drew Brees and I go get Tom Brady, how much did I help my team? If I have Jay Cutler and I go get Orton PLUS picks, this seems like a great plan, especially if Orton is a little better. But then I need to take advantage of the picks or I spent my trade chip for marginal reward. We flushed Phonz and drafted a RB who's been next to useless. How much better are we for the moves?

Not as much as we should be. Those are "personnel decisions." Ignoring the front 7 of the defense with the vast majority of our draftpicks is a similarly untouched issue. It wasn't just about the three guys that left, it was about the effort through draftpicks and free agency to replace them.

Quinn is here to replace Scheffler since we needed a blocking TE more than a pass-catching one - even though we already had Graham as a blocking TE. We signed Lloyd and then drafted DT in the first round to replace Marshall, even though Gaffney and Royal were already here. We traded Cutler for Orton, but didn't like Orton enough not to hedge our bets with another first rounder in Tebow. High draftpicks that could have been used to reinforce the defense were spent on the offense because we dismissed players with talent and then didn't believe we had solved the issues with our initial replacements.

Personnel decisions and people skills did cost us a lot of unnecessary effort and delay fixing the defense.



Let’s remind everyone Denver owner Pat Bowlen canned Hall of Fame coach Mike Shanahan because of a late-season collapse in 2008, the inability to beat Buffalo and San Diego in the final weeks to make the playoffs. Shanahan refused to change his defensive coordinator (remember that), and Bowlen pulled the trigger on his longtime genius.

It’s worth jogging the mental Rolodex that this was not a rebuilding or retooling situation. The expectations were for McDaniels, part of the Bill Belichick tree, to get the Broncos into the playoffs in 2009. And McDaniels has failed, and failed to epic proportions.

This is absolutely wrong. This has been 100% a rebuilding situation, but the Broncos organization has erred by not making that clear. The 2008 Broncos team was a very bad football team. The defense was literally the worst I’ve ever seen. It was absolutely hopeless in every way. The offense moved the ball well, but committed too many turnovers, and didn’t score points when it had opportunities to do so. Football Outsiders’ pythagorean formula said the 2008 Broncos should have been a 4-12 team, and they were probably right...

The Broncos were one game from the playoffs with the worst Broncos defense of my lifetime. It was a DEFENSIVE rebuilding job, but if your offense can move the ball at will but has trouble scoring then that should be a simple tweak, not a full-scale rebuild on both sides of the ball. I can understand Ted's disbelief that we were expected to make the playoffs in 2009, but if the offense is set and the team brings on a good DC and a bunch of free agents to retool the defense, shouldn't it be be a possibility?

And it WAS a possibility. We finished 8-8, not 2-14 or something.

Cue 5 paragraphs of complaining and speculation about Cutler...skipping...ah, the next bit:



You don’t give away a future first-round pick for a second. And for Alphonso Smith! Smith couldn’t even see the field during his rookie year. He was totally lost. And he was so bad McDaniels was forced to trade him after one season to Detroit for non-factor tight end Dan Gronkowski...

This is just bad logic. You DO give away a future first-round pick for a second, if you think you’re getting a player who is worthy of that first round pick. The rule of thumb for valuing future picks is that you set them to the middle of the round, one round later. It works sort of like the Time Value of Money, where a dollar next year is worth less than a dollar today. In other words, next year’s first round pick is appropriately valued as the middle pick in this year’s second round...

As for the player in question, Alphonso Smith, I covered him in my Monday post that everybody’s read. He was well-regarded by many, including me, and he hasn’t worked out as expected. That happens to every team, where a player doesn’t play up to expectations, for whatever reason. Smith was the seventh best CB in the Broncos’ 2010 training camp, and they didn’t see the improvement they expected, so rather than hang on to him, they cut their losses, and shored up another position. Intelligent people don’t ride a sunk cost into more costs, if it isn’t productive. Divesting Smith was both courageous and correct...

So it is correct to spend a first round pick, in the first half of the draft, on a cornerback if they are worthy of the pick, but when they prove unworthy of the pick then it is courageous and correct to trade them for nothing? :confused:

I agree with the draft valuation scheme that a 1st next year is worth a 2nd this year - that's accepted practice. I disagree vehemently with the player and position valuation that Josh made to arrive at the Smith pick in the first place. There is normally one CB a year, at best, worth a top-15 pick. Smith was not it, and never was gonna be it. McDaniels himself said he didn't prep correctly for the draft and only had a few picks he had identified as being worthy of being Broncos, and he was willing to trade picks to go get them.

That's fine if they're good players who can help you win. Smith and Quinn and others haven't been, and won't be. Have I mentioned that we had Champ Bailey under contract for multiple years at the time and just signed Goodman to an extended deal in free agency? We were dropping a first round pick on a guy who was gonna be a nickel back at best for at least 2-3 seasons.

I don't remember people calling Shanahan courageous when he fired free agents or dumped high draft picks after a year. They called them bad additions and wasted selections. I don't see why this is any different.

Skipping the Hillis section, except for this:


And, as a side-note, let’s forget this stupid narrative that McDaniels somehow hated all Shanahan players, okay? It just doesn’t hold any water at all. Or, maybe Larsen, Eddie Royal, Daniel Graham, Chris Kuper, Ryan Clady, Ryan Harris, Elvis Dumervil, D.J. Williams, Wesley Woodyard, Champ Bailey, and Matt Prater don’t count. That’s also known as every single worthwhile player who was on the 2008 Broncos, who was willing to accept the ways of the new program, as their contracts required them to do. (Hillis seemed not to openly buck against the program like Cutler, Marshall, and Scheffler, although there have been reports of him not practicing at the high tempo desired by this staff.)

He benched Harris this year even when healthy for his hand-picked draftee who was playing out of position and terrible, in order to get Hochstein on the field, where he was atrocious.

Larsen doesn't really play.

Royal was ignored in his first season with Josh, with McDaniels noting afterward that he needed to find a way to get him the ball a little more.

Bailey can't get his contract extended and had Josh trying to draft his replacement with 3 CBs in the last 2 seasons.

DJ has a megahuge contract and can't be moved for a bit even if we wanted to.

Yes, there are Shanahan holdovers here. Yes, Josh gave contracts to Shanahan drafted players like Doom. No, I don't think he hates all Shanahan players, but he certainly does replace them whenever possible. Which is his right as coach/GM. He's just been doing it poorly in some very prominent cases.

~G

Elevation inc
12-01-2010, 03:34 PM
meh i didnt disagree with to much, although i think he is simplifying things a little to much for MCd's benefit.....

TXBRONC
12-01-2010, 03:47 PM
The original article stated the bold part. The "refutation" names three players and runs them down. Nolan is talent that has left the building. So is Dennison. So is Turner. That all comes up again later, so we'll get into it more then. And the concern with replacing Cutler, Marshall, Scheffler, Hillis, etc isn't that the replacements might be as good. It's what buying the replacements costs us vs. the delta between their skills and those of the original players. Scheffler still catches passes, Marshall still catches a ton of balls while being double-covered, and Cutler is the QB of an 8-3 team with a 90+ QB rating despite his tendency to throw picks.

If I have Drew Brees and I go get Tom Brady, how much did I help my team? If I have Jay Cutler and I go get Orton PLUS picks, this seems like a great plan, especially if Orton is a little better. But then I need to take advantage of the picks or I spent my trade chip for marginal reward. We flushed Phonz and drafted a RB who's been next to useless. How much better are we for the moves?

Not as much as we should be. Those are "personnel decisions." Ignoring the front 7 of the defense with the vast majority of our draftpicks is a similarly untouched issue. It wasn't just about the three guys that left, it was about the effort through draftpicks and free agency to replace them.

Quinn is here to replace Scheffler since we needed a blocking TE more than a pass-catching one - even though we already had Graham as a blocking TE. We signed Lloyd and then drafted DT in the first round to replace Marshall, even though Gaffney and Royal were already here. We traded Cutler for Orton, but didn't like Orton enough not to hedge our bets with another first rounder in Tebow. High draftpicks that could have been used to reinforce the defense were spent on the offense because we dismissed players with talent and then didn't believe we had solved the issues with our initial replacements.

Personnel decisions and people skills did cost us a lot of unnecessary effort and delay fixing the defense.



The Broncos were one game from the playoffs with the worst Broncos defense of my lifetime. It was a DEFENSIVE rebuilding job, but if your offense can move the ball at will but has trouble scoring then that should be a simple tweak, not a full-scale rebuild on both sides of the ball. I can understand Ted's disbelief that we were expected to make the playoffs in 2009, but if the offense is set and the team brings on a good DC and a bunch of free agents to retool the defense, shouldn't it be be a possibility?

And it WAS a possibility. We finished 8-8, not 2-14 or something.

Cue 5 paragraphs of complaining and speculation about Cutler...skipping...ah, the next bit:



So it is correct to spend a first round pick, in the first half of the draft, on a cornerback if they are worthy of the pick, but when they prove unworthy of the pick then it is courageous and correct to trade them for nothing? :confused:

I agree with the draft valuation scheme that a 1st next year is worth a 2nd this year - that's accepted practice. I disagree vehemently with the player and position valuation that Josh made to arrive at the Smith pick in the first place. There is normally one CB a year, at best, worth a top-15 pick. Smith was not it, and never was gonna be it. McDaniels himself said he didn't prep correctly for the draft and only had a few picks he had identified as being worthy of being Broncos, and he was willing to trade picks to go get them.

That's fine if they're good players who can help you win. Smith and Quinn and others haven't been, and won't be. Have I mentioned that we had Champ Bailey under contract for multiple years at the time and just signed Goodman to an extended deal in free agency? We were dropping a first round pick on a guy who was gonna be a nickel back at best for at least 2-3 seasons.

I don't remember people calling Shanahan courageous when he fired free agents or dumped high draft picks after a year. They called them bad additions and wasted selections. I don't see why this is any different.

Skipping the Hillis section, except for this:



He benched Harris this year even when healthy for his hand-picked draftee who was playing out of position and terrible, in order to get Hochstein on the field, where he was atrocious.

Larsen doesn't really play.

Royal was ignored in his first season with Josh, with McDaniels noting afterward that he needed to find a way to get him the ball a little more.

Bailey can't get his contract extended and had Josh trying to draft his replacement with 3 CBs in the last 2 seasons.

DJ has a megahuge contract and can't be moved for a bit even if we wanted to.

Yes, there are Shanahan holdovers here. Yes, Josh gave contracts to Shanahan drafted players like Doom. No, I don't think he hates all Shanahan players, but he certainly does replace them whenever possible. Which is his right as coach/GM. He's just been doing it poorly in some very prominent cases.

~G

Wow G, you sure did cram a ton of fail into one post.[/QUOTE]

A ton of fail? :eek:

He just performed the colostomy that I mentioned earlier.

Dreadnought
12-01-2010, 03:47 PM
Wow G, you sure did cram a ton of fail into one post.

Funny, I think he utterly discredited and/or demolished the original article. Oh well.

G_Money
12-01-2010, 03:49 PM
Couple more comments:


Nolan is a good defensive coordinator, but he blitzed more than McDaniels wanted to. It’s always in the purview of the Head Coach to set the overall team strategy, and McDaniels comes from a philosophy of being sound against the run, and balanced on the back end, while favoring ball skills in their DBs. The other part of the story is that Nolan wanted another year of security on his contract, and Miami was offering it. Denver declined to do so. Their parting was mutual, but it’s somehow all pinned on McDaniels by everybody, not just Adam Schein. Meanwhile, Wink Martindale’s scheme has been fine, if the execution hasn’t always been, mostly due to a ton of man-games lost on that side of the ball by key players.

He's right, it is the purview of the Head Coach.

And yes, their parting was mutual.

But no, Wink's scheme has not been fine. If he's losing a ton of man-games with key players, then his scheme shouldn't rely on those players to make plays they obviously cannot make.

You don't slide 20+ spots in defensive ranking with a fine scheme that just has poor execution. Of course, Josh isn't helping. McDaniels wanted the defense run this way even though he didn't provide the players to support it - which is why Nolan didn't run it this way - so it's on him that the defense is this bad.

He took a step down in defensive coordinators, and then handicapped the lesser coordinator in the same way he tried to handicap the better one. The better one left, and this is what we have now. That's a problem for me.

One more:


And, yeah, the Broncos are 3-8, but if a few breaks went another way, they could easily have a winning record. Plus, as mentioned, they’re in a secret rebuilding process, regrettably.

They lost those games because McDaniels wanted to run the defense his way and didn't properly staff that defense. With Nolan here we probably win those close ones. With quality defenders maybe Wink does too.

But if McDaniels wants to part ways with good coaches in favor of mediocre ones and can't judge talent well enough to patch the holes, then we're not in a rebuilding process, secret or otherwise.

We just have unpatched holes that mediocre coaches can't scheme around. According to his article, Shanahan's 8-8 2008 team should have been 4-12. Apparently he did a great coaching job. If this team "could easily have a winning record" then does that mean McDaniels is doing a piss-poor one?

I would guess the article writer would say no. Mileage does vary.

~G

G_Money
12-01-2010, 03:57 PM
I think mine are the best posts so screw you all.

Yours ARE the best. :D

And trust me, I'm not the best football guy here, nor do I think I have more knowledge than the article writer.

I just think his perspective is flawed, and it's not a true encapsulation of the trials the Broncos are going through.

FIE obviously believes it is not a myopic take. Any time you wanna discuss it, m'man, you're always welcome. :beer:

At least it's talking about football instead of name-calling. I'd always rather be talking about football.

~G

TXBRONC
12-01-2010, 03:57 PM
Problems I have with this "rebuttal article:

[quote

Hello again! How much wrong can fit in one section? What talent left the building due to his people skills? Talent like this?

a. Jay Cutler – A petulant but talented jerk, who has continued to be that in Chicago, by all reports, and throws the ball to his opponents way too much, especially in the scoring area. Outperformed individually by his replacement Kyle Orton, without any question.

b. Brandon Marshall – An immature but talented player, who is one mistake from missing a big part of a season to a suspension. Outperformed individually by his replacement Brandon Lloyd, by an even wider margin than Orton-Cutler.

c. Tony Scheffler - A wildly overrated clown who was heard in the locker room saying that he couldn’t wait for last season to end, while the Broncos still had a shot at making the Playoffs. This was reported to Josh McDaniels by leaders among the players, and that’s what led to the suspension for the last game of last season. On the field, Scheffler fumbled, dropped passes, and missed blocks frequently, and he’s done nothing very noteworthy in Detroit.

The original article stated the bold part. The "refutation" names three players and runs them down. Nolan is talent that has left the building. So is Dennison. So is Turner. That all comes up again later, so we'll get into it more then. And the concern with replacing Cutler, Marshall, Scheffler, Hillis, etc isn't that the replacements might be as good. It's what buying the replacements costs us vs. the delta between their skills and those of the original players. Scheffler still catches passes, Marshall still catches a ton of balls while being double-covered, and Cutler is the QB of an 8-3 team with a 90+ QB rating despite his tendency to throw picks.

If I have Drew Brees and I go get Tom Brady, how much did I help my team? If I have Jay Cutler and I go get Orton PLUS picks, this seems like a great plan, especially if Orton is a little better. But then I need to take advantage of the picks or I spent my trade chip for marginal reward. We flushed Phonz and drafted a RB who's been next to useless. How much better are we for the moves?

Not as much as we should be. Those are "personnel decisions." Ignoring the front 7 of the defense with the vast majority of our draftpicks is a similarly untouched issue. It wasn't just about the three guys that left, it was about the effort through draftpicks and free agency to replace them.

Quinn is here to replace Scheffler since we needed a blocking TE more than a pass-catching one - even though we already had Graham as a blocking TE. We signed Lloyd and then drafted DT in the first round to replace Marshall, even though Gaffney and Royal were already here. We traded Cutler for Orton, but didn't like Orton enough not to hedge our bets with another first rounder in Tebow. High draftpicks that could have been used to reinforce the defense were spent on the offense because we dismissed players with talent and then didn't believe we had solved the issues with our initial replacements.

Personnel decisions and people skills did cost us a lot of unnecessary effort and delay fixing the defense.



The Broncos were one game from the playoffs with the worst Broncos defense of my lifetime. It was a DEFENSIVE rebuilding job, but if your offense can move the ball at will but has trouble scoring then that should be a simple tweak, not a full-scale rebuild on both sides of the ball. I can understand Ted's disbelief that we were expected to make the playoffs in 2009, but if the offense is set and the team brings on a good DC and a bunch of free agents to retool the defense, shouldn't it be be a possibility?

And it WAS a possibility. We finished 8-8, not 2-14 or something.

Cue 5 paragraphs of complaining and speculation about Cutler...skipping...ah, the next bit:



So it is correct to spend a first round pick, in the first half of the draft, on a cornerback if they are worthy of the pick, but when they prove unworthy of the pick then it is courageous and correct to trade them for nothing? :confused:

I agree with the draft valuation scheme that a 1st next year is worth a 2nd this year - that's accepted practice. I disagree vehemently with the player and position valuation that Josh made to arrive at the Smith pick in the first place. There is normally one CB a year, at best, worth a top-15 pick. Smith was not it, and never was gonna be it. McDaniels himself said he didn't prep correctly for the draft and only had a few picks he had identified as being worthy of being Broncos, and he was willing to trade picks to go get them.

That's fine if they're good players who can help you win. Smith and Quinn and others haven't been, and won't be. Have I mentioned that we had Champ Bailey under contract for multiple years at the time and just signed Goodman to an extended deal in free agency? We were dropping a first round pick on a guy who was gonna be a nickel back at best for at least 2-3 seasons.

I don't remember people calling Shanahan courageous when he fired free agents or dumped high draft picks after a year. They called them bad additions and wasted selections. I don't see why this is any different.

Skipping the Hillis section, except for this:



He benched Harris this year even when healthy for his hand-picked draftee who was playing out of position and terrible, in order to get Hochstein on the field, where he was atrocious.

Larsen doesn't really play.

Royal was ignored in his first season with Josh, with McDaniels noting afterward that he needed to find a way to get him the ball a little more.

Bailey can't get his contract extended and had Josh trying to draft his replacement with 3 CBs in the last 2 seasons.

DJ has a megahuge contract and can't be moved for a bit even if we wanted to.

Yes, there are Shanahan holdovers here. Yes, Josh gave contracts to Shanahan drafted players like Doom. No, I don't think he hates all Shanahan players, but he certainly does replace them whenever possible. Which is his right as coach/GM. He's just been doing it poorly in some very prominent cases.

~G[/QUOTE]


Funny, I think he utterly discredited and/or demolished the original article. Oh well.


Couple more comments:



He's right, it is the purview of the Head Coach.

And yes, their parting was mutual.

But no, Wink's scheme has not been fine. If he's losing a ton of man-games with key players, then his scheme shouldn't rely on those players to make plays they obviously cannot make.

You don't slide 20+ spots in defensive ranking with a fine scheme that just has poor execution. Of course, Josh isn't helping. McDaniels wanted the defense run this way even though he didn't provide the players to support it - which is why Nolan didn't run it this way - so it's on him that the defense is this bad.

He took a step down in defensive coordinators, and then handicapped the lesser coordinator in the same way he tried to handicap the better one. The better one left, and this is what we have now. That's a problem for me.

One more:



They lost those games because McDaniels wanted to run the defense his way and didn't properly staff that defense. With Nolan here we probably win those close ones. With quality defenders maybe Wink does too.

But if McDaniels wants to part ways with good coaches in favor of mediocre ones and can't judge talent well enough to patch the holes, then we're not in a rebuilding process, secret or otherwise.

We just have unpatched holes that mediocre coaches can't scheme around. According to his article, Shanahan's 8-8 2008 team should have been 4-12. Apparently he did a great coaching job. If this team "could easily have a winning record" then does that mean McDaniels is doing a piss-poor one?

I would guess the article writer would say no. Mileage does vary.

~G

G would you like a new set of scalpuls for Christmas because you obviously where the current set out? :beer:

G_Money
12-01-2010, 04:07 PM
I just think it's a matter of data analysis. I'm a synthetic thinker so I tend to put things together. RARELY will I parse out someone's post to analize it line by line. I view all parts of an issue as inter-related parts of the same problem.

An analytic thinker pulls the issue apart and deals with each problem as its own unique issue. Nolan being let go has nothing to do with Marshall which has nothing to do with Cutler. Those are three individual problems and solutions to an analytical mind, while I view them as three outworkings of the same problem that McDaniels has in dealing with a dissenting voice.

So that's where you get a large difference of opinion. As certain acts stack up revealing (to my mind) character flaws bordering on hubris, someone who doesn't see them stacking just sees one problem, one solution.

Sometimes I wish my brain worked that way. It'd make watching the Broncos easier, I think, because if they are not indications of an inherent character flaw on the part of McDaniels then there's no need for him to keep making these mistakes.

~G

itsalloverfatman
12-01-2010, 04:12 PM
Problems I have with this "rebuttal article:

If I have Drew Brees and I go get Tom Brady, how much did I help my team? If I have Jay Cutler and I go get Orton PLUS picks, this seems like a great plan, especially if Orton is a little better. But then I need to take advantage of the picks or I spent my trade chip for marginal reward. We flushed Phonz and drafted a RB who's been next to useless. How much better are we for the moves?

~G

With all due respect, you're making completely incorrect statements right of the bat, G: Alphonso Smith and Knowshon had absolutely nothing to do with the Cutler trade. We traded our own 2010 1st-rounder for Smith, and Knowshon was selected with our own 2009 1st-rounder.

The Cutler picks have resulted in Ayers, Thomas, Eric Decker and part of Richard Quinn.

topscribe
12-01-2010, 04:12 PM
Funny, I think he utterly discredited and/or demolished the original article. Oh well.

I don't believe he did anything of the sort. G wrote some stuff I thoroughly
agree with and some other stuff not so much. But, as usual, he did do a good
job - I certainly can't take that away from him (but so did Ted).

Rats, I wish I could get into this! But I'm so busy right now, I don't dare. So
you all lucked out . . . :D

-----

Northman
12-01-2010, 04:13 PM
Yours ARE the best. :D

And trust me, I'm not the best football guy here, nor do I think I have more knowledge than the article writer.

I just think his perspective is flawed, and it's not a true encapsulation of the trials the Broncos are going through.

FIE obviously believes it is not a myopic take. Any time you wanna discuss it, m'man, you're always welcome. :beer:

At least it's talking about football instead of name-calling. I'd always rather be talking about football.

~G

I dont know if mine are the best, comical maybe but not best. Every once in a while ill post a gem. :D

Fan in Exile
12-01-2010, 04:13 PM
My problems with Gs posts, I'm not speaking for Ted.

1) Formatting
2) Phonse wasn't a part of the trade, you completely screwed up the value there
3)You of course didn't show anything of the actual value like I said in my previous post you ignored the good
4)You ignore the FA D-line he brought in, as if the draft is the only way to build the D-line
5)You ignore the fact that the past two drafts have been pretty bad for 3-4 d-linemen
6)You seem unaware that Quinn was brought in to catch, McD was pretty clear about that in his press conferences after the draft. Now if you would have talked about how he hasn't caught on to the scheme that might have been appropriate, but you failed to get the right problem.
7)Your points against Thomas and Tebow are both pure hindsight working, and they ignore the fact that McD has been clear that he picks guys for where they are going to be three years from now. You're totally ignoring the BPA draft philosophy, which is fine I mean shanny went that way too, and it clearly worked for him.
8)It wasn't a defensive rebuilding Job the minute that Josh was brought in. If you don't understand that, it's no wonder that you don't like Josh. That was Bowlen's call though.
9)If you don't understand sunk costs try googling it, you'll learn something
10)If you expect every draft pick to be a starter, or even see the field, come back to reality it misses you
11)Quinn still might turn it around, keep your eye on him, I get you're emotional but you wouldn't want to miss it.
12)Josh already said that part of the issue was that he and the scouts weren't on the same page, no one knows what really happened in the FO, but I'm sure you blame McD. However the 2009 has still really helped out the team, so overall (at least for those of us who look at all the picks) He's done good things, and gotten better which is all you can ask for
13)If all you're judging things by is what people said about someone else, dig deeper
14)Harris wasn't healthy, if you think he was rewatch the tape, I mean for crying out loud he isn't really healthy now
15)Larsen didn't play much for shanny, but he has gotten a touch down with McD
16)If you're nitpicking about a FBs playing time you're clutching at straws
17)Bailey's contract was killed by Bowlen, come on pay attention to details man
18)I know some people hate DJ, but we aren't going to want to move him, fans can debate all they want to about it
19)You don't actually have any idea what the CBA will be so it may be possible to move DJ
20) Guy deserves to get paid after moving around all the fricking time
21)He replaces them when possible because they need to be, notice how many are out of the NFL
22)You're right Wink should just magicly come up with a scheme that covers for injuries at D-line, LB, S, and CB I mean what DC can't do that. Or maybe you're just a little unreasonable.
23)You have no idea what rules or handicaps he's got on Wink, but don't let that stop you from blaming McD
24)You're right he didn't properly staff the defense I mean why couldn't he get 11 all pro players backed up by 11 pro-bowlers.:confused: Other teams can deal with injuries when they've had a lot of continuity, it's much harder when you've only been the head coach for 21 months, and live in the real world.

GEM
12-01-2010, 04:15 PM
Wow G, you sure did cram a ton of fail into one post.

Wow FIE....is there a reason you have to be completely and utterly rude?

Our site has a no advertising rule, yet in your signature there is an advertisement link to your site. Since It's All Over Fatman has arrived here, they have joined in ZERO football conversations, only posted articles and more links to drive more traffic to their site, yet when someone questions an OPINION piece with their own opinion, they get a reaction like that?

If you don't want responses to these pieces...don't post them here. As long as they are posted here, they will be responded to. G was respectful in his disagreement, no need for being rude in response.

itsalloverfatman
12-01-2010, 04:17 PM
Problems I have with this "rebuttal article:

We signed Lloyd and then drafted DT in the first round to replace Marshall, even though Gaffney and Royal were already here. We traded Cutler for Orton, but didn't like Orton enough not to hedge our bets with another first rounder in Tebow.

~G

Why no talk of the draft picks acquired for Marshall? One of those picks helped bring back Tebow, and the other second-rounder will come in 2011. Lloyd is probably going to cost Denver $1.5 million this year, while Marshall got $23+ million in guarantees from Miami. Oh, and Marshall is a hangnail away from being suspended for a lengthy period of time, while Lloyd has no issues. Does any of that figure into the equation?

itsalloverfatman
12-01-2010, 04:19 PM
Wow FIE....is there a reason you have to be completely and utterly rude?

Our site has a no advertising rule, yet in your signature there is an advertisement link to your site. Since It's All Over Fatman has arrived here, they have joined in ZERO football conversations, only posted articles and more links to drive more traffic to their site, yet when someone questions an OPINION piece with their own opinion, they get a reaction like that?

If you don't want responses to these pieces...don't post them here. As long as they are posted here, they will be responded to. G was respectful in his disagreement, no need for being rude in response.

GEM, FiE has been a member here for years and is not part of the staff at IAOFM.

Northman
12-01-2010, 04:21 PM
Why no talk of the draft picks acquired for Marshall? One of those picks helped bring back Tebow, and the other second-rounder will come in 2011. Lloyd is probably going to cost Denver $1.5 million this year, while Marshall got $23+ million in guarantees from Miami. Oh, and Marshall is a hangnail away from being suspended for a lengthy period of time, while Lloyd has no issues. Does any of that figure into the equation?

Has Marshall gotten into trouble being in Miami? I havent heard of anything of the sorts from there. Tebow? Yea, a lot of good that guy is doing sitting on the bench, gratz McD for wasting a spot on the bench for a potential DE or NT who could help the team NOW.

GEM
12-01-2010, 04:22 PM
GEM, FiE has been a member here for years and is not part of the staff at IAOFM.

I know that....I have been on the same boards as FiE for a number of years. That's why it's surprising to see something that rude from him.

Since he isn't a part of your staff and hasn't cleared the advertisement in his signature with T, as you have, he will need to remove it.

topscribe
12-01-2010, 04:22 PM
Wow FIE....is there a reason you have to be completely and utterly rude?

Our site has a no advertising rule, yet in your signature there is an advertisement link to your site. Since It's All Over Fatman has arrived here, they have joined in ZERO football conversations, only posted articles and more links to drive more traffic to their site, yet when someone questions an OPINION piece with their own opinion, they get a reaction like that?

If you don't want responses to these pieces...don't post them here. As long as they are posted here, they will be responded to. G was respectful in his disagreement, no need for being rude in response.

I didn't take that as rude. I believe Dread said much the same thing about
Ted's article when he said, " I think he utterly discredited and/or
demolished the original article."

FIE didn't say anything about the poster personally, just the post. I always
took the posts themselves as fair game . . .

-----

Northman
12-01-2010, 04:23 PM
I didn't take that as rude. I believe Dread said much the same thing about
Ted's article when he said, " I think he utterly discredited and/or
demolished the original article."

FIE didn't say anything about the poster personally, just the post. I always
took the posts themselves as fair game . . .

-----

Is Ted a member here?

topscribe
12-01-2010, 04:26 PM
Is Ted a member here?

I have no idea. Haven't asked him. But a post is a post. We can go ahead
and reduce the whole board to a kiddie farm.

Kumbaya . . .

-----

G_Money
12-01-2010, 04:30 PM
Why no talk of the draft picks acquired for Marshall? One of those picks helped bring back Tebow, and the other second-rounder will come in 2011. Lloyd is probably going to cost Denver $1.5 million this year, while Marshall got $23+ million in guarantees from Miami. Oh, and Marshall is a hangnail away from being suspended for a lengthy period of time, while Lloyd has no issues. Does any of that figure into the equation?

Why do I need Tebow if I have Orton?

And I agree, Lloyd saved us a ton of cash for this year over what Marshall would have cost...so why aren't we better?

I personally don't care which picks in the 1st resulted in whom, since draft strategy can change knowing you have another picks in 20 minutes, so I just counted the other first rounders, but sure, you're right:

the Cutler picks have resulted in Ayers, Thomas, Eric Decker and part of Richard Quinn.

Decker can barely get on the field thanks to our glut of WRs. Thomas has been injured as is his wont and similarly has trouble cracking the rotation with Lloyd, Gaffney and Royal out there. Quinn is desperately needed to reinforce the line but it hasn't helped the running game much. And Ayers...

I wasn't a fan of Ayers at Tennessee due to his reluctance to take coaching and inability to live up to his talent until he had to go raise his draft stock. But I admit that he might work out as an OLB. I don't think he's anything special, certainly not a game-changer, but competence is within his grasp if he stays on the field.

I guess eventual competence and massive position redundancy isn't what I was looking for from the 2 first round picks. We needed game-changers, and so far, they haven't shown up. Wasting at least one of our own picks in the process didn't help matters.

I was not opposed to trading Cutler or Marshall in general. They were about to get really expensive, and if you can get draftpicks for them that help your team as well as a QB in return who can achieve his potential in your system, that's fine.

It's a perfectly viable idea that's been exceedingly poorly executed, that's all.

~G

Fan in Exile
12-01-2010, 04:32 PM
Wow FIE....is there a reason you have to be completely and utterly rude?

Our site has a no advertising rule, yet in your signature there is an advertisement link to your site. Since It's All Over Fatman has arrived here, they have joined in ZERO football conversations, only posted articles and more links to drive more traffic to their site, yet when someone questions an OPINION piece with their own opinion, they get a reaction like that?

If you don't want responses to these pieces...don't post them here. As long as they are posted here, they will be responded to. G was respectful in his disagreement, no need for being rude in response.

It's not my site at all, GEM

Neither is it their opinion you'll notice it's from one man football an entirely separate site.

I have nothing to do with either site, except that I read them.

I would also disagree that G along with the other posters were being respectful. If they had posted comments I would have just responded to those.

Fan in Exile
12-01-2010, 04:34 PM
I know that....I have been on the same boards as FiE for a number of years. That's why it's surprising to see something that rude from him.

Since he isn't a part of your staff and hasn't cleared the advertisement in his signature with T, as you have, he will need to remove it.

I can do that GEM, but really let's get back on topic. Should a moderator be hijacking a thread?

G_Money
12-01-2010, 04:35 PM
I didn't take Fan's response as rude. He's absolutely free to not like what I posted, as I was free to have a couple of issues with what he copied over here.

If he wants to post about why exactly my post failed, he will.

And IAOFM - thanks for the postings here. You didn't have to swing by. More clarification is better, and anything that helps me clarify my objections or makes the original posted article clearer in intent is a good thing.

~G

G_Money
12-01-2010, 05:27 PM
Okay, I'll see what I can do.


My problems with Gs posts, I'm not speaking for Ted.

1) Formatting
2) Phonse wasn't a part of the trade, you completely screwed up the value there - right, I explained that later, but you can definitely take issue with it.
3)You of course didn't show anything of the actual value like I said in my previous post you ignored the good. - I was more even-handed with his article than he was with the one he quoted, but I get that complaint. I was doing it in his quoting style, not my monologue style where I give more credit. My bad.
4)You ignore the FA D-line he brought in, as if the draft is the only way to build the D-line - They weren't any good, so if we're building that way we suck at it too.
5)You ignore the fact that the past two drafts have been pretty bad for 3-4 d-linemen - then we should have traded for some, only selected the best 3-4 options, or not gone with a 3-4. It takes years to get draftpicks up to speed on the DL, now we're 2 years behind the curve.
6)You seem unaware that Quinn was brought in to catch, McD was pretty clear about that in his press conferences after the draft. Now if you would have talked about how he hasn't caught on to the scheme that might have been appropriate, but you failed to get the right problem. - I know Josh says he was brought in to catch, but he hasn't done it. All he has done is block, and that only really started happening this year. If he drafts a blocking tight end and uses him as a blocking tight end, why would I judge him as a receiving tight end?
7)Your points against Thomas and Tebow are both pure hindsight working, and they ignore the fact that McD has been clear that he picks guys for where they are going to be three years from now. You're totally ignoring the BPA draft philosophy, which is fine I mean shanny went that way too, and it clearly worked for him. - Thomas wasn't the best receiver available, Dez was, let alone the best player available. Tebow wasn't the best player available either, especially if he's not gonna be ready to play until that 3 years from now that you're talking about. And how is it hindsight when Gaffney, Royal, Lloyd and Orton were all on the roster already?
8)It wasn't a defensive rebuilding Job the minute that Josh was brought in. If you don't understand that, it's no wonder that you don't like Josh. That was Bowlen's call though. - No idea what you mean by this.
9)If you don't understand sunk costs try googling it, you'll learn something - I understand sunk costs fine, but you don't get props for bailing on a sunk cost that you created yourself. If you crash a car and then trade it in for a crappy car, I don't credit you for the swift action, I complain about you crashing the car. The original article explains why the 1st round pick was just compensation for Phonz and then credits McDaniels for his swift action in dumping Phonz. If he wasn't the wrong pick - and while you might believe he was the best player available there too, I don't - then he doesn't have to be thrown overboard as a sunk cost. Again, it's not the cost of selecting a player at that point, it's that THAT player wasn't a good choice for a first round pick, either by himself or by position even at the time.
10)If you expect every draft pick to be a starter, or even see the field, come back to reality it misses you - Nope, but you've got to get your hits among your misses, and so far the studs we've drafted the last 2 years, especially in high rounds, are who exactly?
11)Quinn still might turn it around, keep your eye on him, I get you're emotional but you wouldn't want to miss it. - Love to see it, don't think it'll happen. Sorry.
12)Josh already said that part of the issue was that he and the scouts weren't on the same page, no one knows what really happened in the FO, but I'm sure you blame McD. However the 2009 has still really helped out the team, so overall (at least for those of us who look at all the picks) He's done good things, and gotten better which is all you can ask for. - 2009 draft: Moreno (barely adequate for the worst rush team in the country), Ayers (striving for adequacy when not injured, still learning), Smith (gone), McBath (injured backup), Quinn (occasionally sees the field in a blocking only role), Bruton (special teams only), Olsen (gone), McKinley (sadly gone but was backup to the backups), Brandy (gone) and Schluetlr (gone). Yep, that's really helped us.
13)If all you're judging things by is what people said about someone else, dig deeper - no idea.
14)Harris wasn't healthy, if you think he was rewatch the tape, I mean for crying out loud he isn't really healthy now - You could be right. Maybe Harris was never healthy and Josh was doing all he could with the roster he had. Shame we built the roster without a backup tackle considering the injuries both our Tackles had that were known issues.
15-20) The original article indicated how it wasn't possible that McDaniels played favorites with his guys over Shanny's guys by listing a bunch of names. I was just attempting to show that a bunch of those guys aren't exactly mainstays or expected to be part of future McDaniels-coached teams. It's not as clear as, "they're still here so they're 100% Josh's guys now." That's all.
21)He replaces them when possible because they need to be, notice how many are out of the NFL - There was a lot of crap on the team he inherited. There was a lot that wasn't crap. He replaced both.
22)You're right Wink should just magicly come up with a scheme that covers for injuries at D-line, LB, S, and CB I mean what DC can't do that. Or maybe you're just a little unreasonable. - The last one did a helluva lot better at it than this one. Or have you already forgotten the trials of that defense?
23)You have no idea what rules or handicaps he's got on Wink, but don't let that stop you from blaming McD - The last DC covered by blitzing, then got let go partly for that, and Wink's only successes have been while blitzing or playing a 4 man front, but he doesn't keep doing it. No, I don't know what constraints he's under, but I'll stick with my educated guess instead.
24)You're right he didn't properly staff the defense I mean why couldn't he get 11 all pro players backed up by 11 pro-bowlers.:confused: Other teams can deal with injuries when they've had a lot of continuity, it's much harder when you've only been the head coach for 21 months, and live in the real world. - He could have added a lot more talent to the defense. He could have drafted front-seven instead of back-4 for it as well. He saved money on several players, including Marshall, but what he spent it on didn't work. Sure, there are failures in player selection, both in FA and the draft, but since he picked them, they are his failures. Shanahan routinely won despite his terrible eye for free agents AND draftpicks. McDaniels is obviously not able to do that, so his eye for those selections is very important, and he doesn't have a good one yet.

itsalloverfatman
12-01-2010, 05:44 PM
GEM, FiE has been a member here for years and is not part of the staff at IAOFM.

Sorry, everyone. Looking back, I find my own comment here to be a bit too terse in nature. FiE is not a staff writer for IAOFM, but he is in fact a valued reader. We/I didn't ask him to put our address into his signature, although it is certainly flattering.

GEM, if you take issue with what I've posted recently (and Ted is also not an IAOFM writer) then please send me a message. I am participating here when I get a chance to, but if it's not enough to warrant the number of posts I create here, then let me know. If I am, my apologies.

Northman
12-01-2010, 06:05 PM
So then FIE does have ties to your board. No wonder he went ape shit. Explains a lot.

HORSEPOWER 56
12-01-2010, 06:06 PM
If only I had an hour to do to his article what he did to the other guy's.

~G

THANKS FOR FINDING THE TIME THE TIME, G!

Your average post on this board is typically more logical, well thought out, and fair than Ted's was. It's pretty obvious to me that he has taken exception to people picking on McDaniels and is obviously a supporter, defending even the indisputably bad decisions. Not one point that Schein made in his blog/article (which was scathing and filled with a lot of unnecessary personal venom) was really disputed by Ted at all. Ted did a wonderful McDaniels-esque job of blaming everyone and everything except McDaniels for the Broncos current state of affairs.

I also always enjoy the drama whenever Cutler is brought into a discussion as a McDaniels mistake and people act like he was some petulant child that nobody could work with and was a locker-room cancer, franchise destroyer and therefore he had to go. The Bears seem to be doing okay with him. He hasn't quite thrown enough interceptions or temper tantrums for them not to be leading their division, yet...

Ah well. it is what it is and I can only hope that Josh McDaniels will no longer be the head Coach of my favorite team after this season.

itsalloverfatman
12-01-2010, 06:16 PM
So then FIE does have ties to your board. No wonder he went ape shit. Explains a lot.

Well, not really - again, the article this thread is all based upon did not come from IAOFM. It's Ted Bartlett, of One Man Football - formerly of MHR.

HORSEPOWER 56
12-01-2010, 06:24 PM
Well, not really - again, the article this thread is all based upon did not come from IAOFM. It's Ted Bartlett, of One Man Football - formerly of MHR.

Exactly, MHR... the Bleacher Report of the Broncos world.

Elevation inc
12-01-2010, 07:24 PM
Has Marshall gotten into trouble being in Miami? I havent heard of anything of the sorts from there. Tebow? Yea, a lot of good that guy is doing sitting on the bench, gratz McD for wasting a spot on the bench for a potential DE or NT who could help the team NOW.

yes he has pissed his team mates and coaches off, dropepd balls, gotten sore hammys and complained about targets publicly, there was also the cutler masrhall exchange and marshall punting the ball during a game as well....same shit differen team....

scott.475
12-01-2010, 07:45 PM
I think I can sum up what the OMF writer is saying a lot quicker:

Josh has made no mistakes. He is the perfect coach. We are better than we have been in years. If you disagree, shut up.

Yeah, I think that does it pretty well.

BeefStew25
12-01-2010, 08:00 PM
G money is a super classy guy and I am proud to say I cahtted with him super drunk after a game in the mile high parking lot. He is handsome as he is brilliant.

Fan in Exile
12-01-2010, 09:47 PM
Okay, I'll see what I can do.

Now I'll see too.

1) I can be a jerk
2) Glad you saw that you were wrong
3)Glad you see the shortcomings of your post.
4) Vickerson, Bannan and Williams have done a solid job. The rest do stink. However this is again the type of 20/20 hindsight complaint that is just annoying. There wasn't really anyone better that we could afford to bring in because of how many players we had to replace after Shanahan left. If you really want to rip on Josh, who did you want him to bring in?
5) What's you point about being behind the curve, I hope you're not arguing that we should have brought in any old guy just to have someone learning. As far as trading, teams don't just trade away good d-linemen. Nor could we afford to give up all of our draft picks with all the holes there were to fill. You just have a certain amount of picks, and players that can be traded, and money that can be spent on free agency, given all the holes it's hard to come up with a realistic scenario that would go better.
6) Know you're not following your own argument. You complained about getting Quinn because we already had Graham to block. I'm just saying you were complaining about the wrong thing which you were. Quinn has not lived up to his status yet.
7)Orton, Royal, and Gaffney were all on the team, but they hadn't produced this well yet. That's what makes it hindsight. No one could have known how well they would do. Orton wasn't completing passes beyond ten yards last year, and Lloyd was well known for disappearing in games. So we had every reason to want an upgrade. Thomas is better than Dez IMO, and he hasn't got the drama. YMMV
8) I mean that when Pat brought in McD he knew that McD was going to change the offense. Which meant that we wouldn't be running the Naked bootlegs that help out the running game which meant that we would need some new o-line, and so on. It was Pat's Idea to bring in a coach who was going to run a system that was so different that we would have to rebuild the offense as well.
9) You do get props because it shows there is a good system in place. Other coaches would have held on to him wasted money and a roster spot until there was no value for him at all. Here McD is above average. Props for minimizing the mistakes that everyone makes.
10) This is what I was talking about minimizing the good. I don't think we'll ever agree on this. But my list would be Thomas, Beadles, Walton, McBath, Ayers (of course you have to understand what's being asked of him to get this.) Moreno leading all the rookies in rushing, and finally being healthy with three hundred yard games, also what he's done in the passing game. There's more but clearly he's had hits on players. It's just that fans seem to think coaches can magically tell which player might get hurt and therefore are some kind of idiot when players get hurt.
11) Just remember who told you so. :)
12) Three starters and a back up is actually a good draft. Most teams only average two starters. Actually I think it's about 1.8. You just have to know that scale you're judging on.
13) I was refering to how you condemned Josh because of how everyone talked about Shanahan. You don't have to just go by what everyone else says
14) Again you seem to think that you can just wave your hand and bring in a stud. There were a lot of holes that need to be filled, and he's doing it.
15-20) I'll just take this as you giving up
21) There weren't a lot that were good that got replaced. At best you've got four names. Cutler, Marshall, Scheffler, and Hillis. Pat was the one that booted Cutler, (that's a dead horse though so if you don't agree) Marshall was a problem child, he hasn't been well behaved in Miami. I'm happy he's gone. Scheffler had a bigger following than his play deserved because he had catches but I want a complete TE. Hillis clearly doesn't qualify as a lot of good players that got replaced. But again I never said Josh was perfect.
22) If by last one you mean Nolan, then think back to last year, because we never had the injuries last year that we had this year. If you mean Slowick then there's no hope for you at all.
23) I think here's where the tape isn't going to back you up. We haven't been getting success on the blitz. Rivers for one ate us alive when we did it. So while I'm glad you admitted your ignorance I think your educated guess is just a wild conspiracy theory. Does anyone have a stat on how our blitzing has gone?
24) You keep saying he could have drafted better talent, but at the draft we had a healthy Ayers, and Doom so there wasn't a need to go for OLB. There weren't d-linemen to get in the draft. Seriously look through the guys. You've got a bunch of fat NT guys and not very forceful ends.

This is why I believe that people's responses to Josh have been myopic. They just sit back and say he should have brought in better guys without dealing with the very real problems of bringing guys in.

No he hasn't been perfect but when you compare his work to other people's work he deserves another year, notice to that this is not a ringing endorsement. It's all about the context.

tomjonesrocks
12-01-2010, 10:37 PM
I didn't take Fan's response as rude. He's absolutely free to not like what I posted, as I was free to have a couple of issues with what he copied over here.
~G

I thought it was wildly rude even if technically referring to just a post. Initially I thought it was sarcasm it was so over the top. But I am a small fish in a small pond...

nevcraw
12-02-2010, 12:44 AM
I found Ted's Blog (article my ass) to reek of someone who doth think too much of
his blogging prowess.
All that BS about Adam Schein's writing and "knowing" he will read his crap.
Dude is a pro as is his producer who do a very nice job of making the "listeners" or readers feel like they are part of the story / game but at the same time sometimes create the Ted's (fan experts) of the world when they respond to an online question.

and no we do not need to read about your shitting and tweeting habbits.
TED Blog = Fail

topscribe
12-02-2010, 08:51 AM
So then FIE does have ties to your board. No wonder he went ape shit. Explains a lot.

I like his board, too. Is that supposed to be a character flaw?



I found Ted's Blog (article my ass) to reek of someone who doth think too much of
his blogging prowess.
All that BS about Adam Schein's writing and "knowing" he will read his crap.
Dude is a pro as is his producer who do a very nice job of making the "listeners" or readers feel like they are part of the story / game but at the same time sometimes create the Ted's (fan experts) of the world when they respond to an online question.

and no we do not need to read about your shitting and tweeting habbits.
TED Blog = Fail

Ted ought to think highly of his blogging prowess. He is very good at it and
has been for a long time. But then, he blogs mainly to his friends (such as I).
I don't think he cares about what the others think.



Converse to Schein's piece, Ted Bartlett documented his article well. I have
followed him from deep into the days of MHR and have found him especially
perspicacious and knowledgeable. Schein's article did have some influence on
me, and I grateful for Bartlett's rebuttal.

I'm also grateful for G's rebuttal in this thread. It helps me to develop and
maintain a balance toward the issue in question and keeps the thread from
becoming a piece of garbage from all the nonsensical and worthless
one-liners in it.

-----

Northman
12-02-2010, 09:44 AM
yes he has pissed his team mates and coaches off, dropepd balls, gotten sore hammys and complained about targets publicly,

You have a link to that? I have not heard that at all.


there was also the cutler masrhall exchange and marshall punting the ball during a game as well....same shit differen team....

The Cutler thing was Marshall messing with Jay. It did cost his team a penalty but thats not the first time ive seen players do that.

Northman
12-02-2010, 09:51 AM
I like his board, too. Is that supposed to be a character flaw?




Maybe, but its all about perspective.

Elevation inc
12-02-2010, 11:23 AM
You have a link to that? I have not heard that at all.



The Cutler thing was Marshall messing with Jay. It did cost his team a penalty but thats not the first time ive seen players do that.

lol i never said it wasn't but it was still a immature act that everyone was talking about.....the punting the ball thing was on yahoo and nfl.com during a game and the dropped balls is during games, and the trashing the Qb was a rumor report by glazer.....

you can think what you want, think your own opinion etc etc..its cool.....for me i dont really care anymore that he is gone and i think we scored in trading him like we did...i dont miss him and his antics.....its nice to have 3 humble, quiet respectful Wr's right now playing team ball....in fact its refreshing....

now if we coudl get a defense to play well and our coach to stop being a doosh...we would be set:lol:

Canmore
12-02-2010, 11:25 AM
...now if we coudl get a defense to play well and our coach to stop being a doosh...we would be set:lol:

You're asking for an awful lot. :laugh:

Bosco
12-02-2010, 07:19 PM
Pretty good piece.