Orton isn't the only NFL quarterback struggling to convert third-down plays

[topscribe]

Guess who else is not converting 3rd downs. Joe Flacco, Eli Manning, Donovan
McNabb, and . . . yes, Peyton Manning.





So while it's a quarterback's universe in football, no quarterback, even a
future Hall of Fame quarterback such as Manning, can overcome an
offense that can't run the ball and a defense that can't stop anybody.


So it shouldn't be shocking that Orton hasn't done well on third down. No
quarterback on a team with the 31st-ranked running game and the
32nd-ranked scoring defense is going to look good on third down.



Read the entire article here:

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16736759

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[BroncoWave]

This is like when the kid who gets in trouble with his parents says "but everybody else is doing it!". I doubt that excuse flew with you top and it doesn't fly here either.

[BroncoNut]

boy, I feel a whole lot better. thanks top

[topscribe]

boy, I feel a whole lot better. thanks top

I know, I know. That doesn't make the Broncos' record look any better.

But it should shed some light on what is behind the 3rd down issue - that is,
to those with an open mind . . .

-----

[TXBRONC]

Flacco, P. Manning, and E. Manning are all on teams in playoff contention. McNabb's team may not make the playoffs but they are competitive at 5-6.

Kyle Orton and the Broncos are 3-8.

Legwold's argument is weak imho.

[chazoe60]

Yay, we're not the only ones with a sucky QB this season. Whew, I feel so much better now.

[sanluis]

The 2010 3-8 record is not Kyle Orton's fault. Just like the 2009 6-0 start wasn't . :D

It's a team game.... :shocked:

[topscribe]

Yay, we're not the only ones with a sucky QB this season. Whew, I feel so much better now.

Yup, the Colts have one, too, don't they?

Far be it from that guy to be considered for the Hall of Fame . . . :coffee:

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[chazoe60]

No no, it's a perfect example of typical Orton fan excuses. Explain away Orton's failures by pointing out the failures of others. It's exactly how you explain the play of any elite player.

[TXBRONC]

The 2010 3-8 record is not Kyle Orton's fault. Just like the 2009 6-0 start wasn't . :D

It's a team game.... :shocked:

It's a team game , he's the starting quarterback, and he has no responsibilty in what the record is? :confused:

[sanluis]

It's a team game , he's the starting quarterback, and he has no responsibilty in the record is? :confused:

sure ! As he is a part of the team TX. But he can't do it alone... and neither can most QBs.

[Northman]

Like i said, this board never ceases to amaze me.

[topscribe]

No no, it's a perfect example of typical Orton fan excuses. Explain away Orton's failures by pointing out the failures of others. It's exactly how you explain the play of any elite player.

Below Legwold's article, there is a place where "fans" such as you can respond.
I suggest you go there. Don't take it up with me. I'm the messenger. Legwold
wrote it . . .

-----

[TXBRONC]

sure ! As he is a part of the team TX. But he can't do it alone... and neither can most QBs.

Who said he could?

[BroncoWave]

Below Legwold's article, there is a place where "fans" such as you can respond.
I suggest you go there. Don't take it up with me. I'm the messenger. Legwold
wrote it . . .

-----

Oh please, give me a break. Unless you are saying you disagree with his analysis you are every bit as open to take criticism for it as he is. We're not as stupid as you make us out to be top, we know you agree with that article 100%. Why don't you man up and defend your stance instead of hiding behind the author of the article?

[chazoe60]

Below Legwold's article, there is a place where "fans" such as you can respond.
I suggest you go there. Don't take it up with me. I'm the messenger. Legwold
wrote it . . .

-----

Why did you put fans in quotation marks? Because I don't care for Orton as our QB I am not a real fan?

[topscribe]

sure ! As he is a part of the team TX. But he can't do it alone... and neither can most QBs.

I can't read the posts of the poster to whom you responded, except when he
is quoted, such as you did here. (I usually ignore the quotes, but I just
happened to catch this one.) This is a good reason why I have such a poster
on Ignore. Where is it that Legwold or I mentioned anywhere that Orton has
nooooooooooo responsibility toward the team's record?

The article talked about one thing, and one thing only: Third down conversions.
Anything else is off-topic and an effort to derail the thread . . .

-----

[TXBRONC]

Like i said, this board never ceases to amaze me.

Wouldn't you rather be amazed than bored to tears? :D

[UrbanBounca]

The major difference is they're still winning games. They're not 3-8.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[Northman]

Wouldn't you rather be amazed than bored to tears? :D

Oh, i think its comical. This shit gets funnier everyday. Im guessing since Jay wasnt listed he is doing fine on 3rd downs for Chi-town and when he was here our 3rd down conversions were better including record. So, take that for what its worth i guess. :lol:

[TXBRONC]

The major difference is they're still winning games. They're not 3-8.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

That's why I think Legwold's argument is weak.

[topscribe]

The major difference is they're still winning games. They're not 3-8.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

That is not the point. And you know it.

-----

[topscribe]

Oh, i think its comical. This shit gets funnier everyday. Im guessing since Jay wasnt listed he is doing fine on 3rd downs for Chi-town and when he was here our 3rd down conversions were better including record. So, take that for what its worth i guess. :lol:

Yes. That is because Jay is a better QB than Manning . . .

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[Northman]

Yes. That is because Jay is a better QB than Manning . . .

-----

If you say so.

[BroncoWave]

I can't read the posts of the poster to whom you responded, except when he
is quoted, such as you did here. (I usually ignore the quotes, but I just
happened to catch this one.) This is a good reason why I have such a poster
on Ignore. Where is it that Legwold or I mentioned anywhere that Orton has
nooooooooooo responsibility toward the team's record?

The article talked about one thing, and one thing only: Third down conversions.
Anything else is off-topic and an effort to derail the thread . . .

-----

Translation: No one is allowed to disagree with me and doing so is off topic. I bet you did great in high school debate! :lol:

[Northman]

Translation: No one is allowed to disagree with me and doing so is off topic. I bet you did great in high school debate! :lol:

Especially when it comes to Orton. Sorry, it isnt just about 3rd downs because there are other factors including how those teams perform overall in the w/l column, etc. Cherry picking is weak sauce.

[TXBRONC]

Oh, i think its comical. This shit gets funnier everyday. Im guessing since Jay wasnt listed he is doing fine on 3rd downs for Chi-town and when he was here our 3rd down conversions were better including record. So, take that for what its worth i guess. :lol:

No one can deny with any sense of credibility that Orton isn't having a career year but we're still 3-8 with him at the helm. And facts are facts we have had four games where we have had the ball for the last meaningful series and in all four instances we've fallen short. Three times by turnover and once on downs.

[WARHORSE]

Like it or not, the article is true.

No run game, behind in the score.....you will find it hard to convert.



Doesnt mean we cant.....but it is harder.

Obviously, the immobility of Orton adds to the problem vs a mobile QB, but I like Ortons fire and moxy. Hes a tough guy, and I just hope he doesnt get hurt.

[topscribe]

Especially when it comes to Orton. Sorry, it isnt just about 3rd downs because there are other factors including how those teams perform overall in the w/l column, etc. Cherry picking is weak sauce.

No, this thread is about third downs, and third downs only. That should be
very obvious. Neither the OP nor the article mentioned anything else. Just
third downs, and third downs only.

If you and others want to discuss other things about Orton, this board is just
loaded with threads to that effect. This thread is about third downs, and
third downs only.

BTW, did I mention this thread is about third downs?

-----

[Northman]

Like it or not, the article is true.

No run game, behind in the score.....you will find it hard to convert.



Doesnt mean we cant.....but it is harder.

Obviously, the immobility of Orton adds to the problem vs a mobile QB, but I like Ortons fire and moxy. Hes a tough guy, and I just hope he doesnt get hurt.

He couldnt convert 3rd downs last year either and we had a running game.

[Northman]

This thread is not about Top. It is about third downs and third downs only.

BTW, did I mention this thread is about third downs?

-----

Dont start crying because we are poking holes through your arguement. Did i mention there is more to that than just 3rd downs? Cant handle the debate than leave.

[Ravage!!!]

Peyton has had HOW many WRs down with injury this year? Eli has had injuries to their WRs, Flacco just isn't above average, anyway.. and Donovan is at the last couple years of his declining career.

I think I feel like most have already posted.... it doesn't make me feel better to see that other teams have the same struggles. Would be nicer to actually see us compared to the GOOD things that other teams are doing.

[topscribe]

Dont start crying because we are poking holes through your arguement. Did i mention there is more to that than just 3rd downs? Cant handle the debate than leave.

What argument? I posted an article from the Denver Post. Now, what
argument are you talking about?

As I suggested to the another poster, go to the DP and take it up with the
person who wrote the article. All I did here was to post the article. So you
tell me, what argument are you "poking holes" in?

BTW, this is MY thread. I am the OP. YOU leave.

-----

[Northman]

What argument? I posted an article from the Denver Post. Now, what
argument are you talking about?

As I suggested to the another poster, go to the DP and take it up with the
person who wrote the article. All I did here was to post the article. So you
tell me, what argument are you "poking holes" in?

-----

The article. I thought it was pretty clear what i was debating. Sorry i had to actually spell it out for you.

[topscribe]

The article. I thought it was pretty clear what i was debating. Sorry i had to actually spell it out for you.

What you were saying had nothing to do with the article. Sorry you can't see that . . .

-----

[Northman]

What you were saying had nothing to do with the article. Sorry you can't see that . . .

-----

It has everything to do with the article because im challenging his viewpoint. Its not up to you to determine what my stance or arguement is on that subject. Like i said, if you cant handle it or challenge my viewpoints on it than leave. When i look at 3rd down conversions i look at the total package and not cherry pick one little thing.

[TXBRONC]

Like it or not, the article is true.

No run game, behind in the score.....you will find it hard to convert.



Doesnt mean we cant.....but it is harder.

Obviously, the immobility of Orton adds to the problem vs a mobile QB, but I like Ortons fire and moxy. Hes a tough guy, and I just hope he doesnt get hurt.

Just off the top of my head I know for sure Peyton Manning's team has the same problems we do yet the Colts are still tied for first place.

I don't think you'll find many people who will disagree with you about Orton's toughness.

That being it said it doesn't change the team record with him at the helm. Other quarterbacks who have come through Denver have criticized incessantly about their wins and losses but now because Orton is having a career year the record doesn't matter?

[BroncoWave]

He couldnt convert 3rd downs last year either and we had a running game.

Funny how the one post that mentions 3rd downs, Top COMPLETELY glosses over! Funny how he whines about us not being on topic but only responds to those posts he considers off-topic and ignores the ones that are on-topic.

(BTW, top has me on ignore but I'd appreciate it if someone quoted this so he could see what a hypocrite he is being)

[topscribe]

It has everything to do with the article because im challenging his viewpoint. Its not up to you to determine what my stance or arguement is on that subject. Like i said, if you cant handle it or challenge my viewpoints on it than leave. When i look at 3rd down conversions i look at the total package and not cherry pick one little thing.

The article addresses one topic and one topic only. To drag a general argument
on Orton into this thread is derailing that topic. I'm not going to allow that. There
are plenty of other Orton threads out there if you want to discuss things such as
"his" record or other aspects of his game.

The article and this thread are about third downs. Anything else is irrelevant.

-----

[Mike]

Orton isn't losing games...and he isn't winning games. He is not the Broncos biggest problem, but neither is he the long-term solution. I don't see what is worth arguing about.

[Northman]

In the grand scheme of things its never been about Orton's character, toughness, or him having an elite year or should i say "stellar" year because he isnt an elite QB because of one major factor. The "it" factor. And for the reasons that TX mentioned those QB's can get it done when it counts Orton sadly cannot.

[topscribe]

Orton isn't losing games...and he isn't winning games. He is not the Broncos biggest problem, but neither is he the long-term solution. I don't see what is worth arguing about.

Even that is irrelevant. The article and thread are about third downs.

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[Northman]

Orton isn't losing games...and he isn't winning games. He is not the Broncos biggest problem, but neither is he the long-term solution. I don't see what is worth arguing about.


I didnt start the thread so i agree, pretty pointless. :lol:

[topscribe]

I didnt start the thread so i agree, pretty pointless. :lol:

Then go somewhere else. There are a lot of other threads on this board.

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[Northman]

Then go somewhere else. There are a lot of other threads on this board.

-----

Quit making me the topic.

[Mike]

Even that is irrelevant. The article and thread are about third downs.

-----

You don't own threads, Top. Don't like where things are going...don't make threads.

[topscribe]

You don't own threads, Top. Don't like where things are going...don't make threads.

As a mod, have you read the COC? You don't mind derailing threads? Have
you heard of PMs? If you have something to say about the way I post or
start threads, I suggest you take it up there.

As OP, I posted to discuss a topic. I do not have to tolerate derailing the topic.
And I will start all the threads I want.

-----

[TXBRONC]

Orton isn't losing games...and he isn't winning games. He is not the Broncos biggest problem, but neither is he the long-term solution. I don't see what is worth arguing about.

I was just giving my views on what Legwold wrote.

[BroncoWave]

I like the situation you have set up top. If our post isn't about 3rd downs, we shouldn't post it because it's not on topic. But if it is on topic and disagreeing with the author, we should take it up with him instead of posting it here. You have done a masterful job of setting things up in a way in which you don't actually have to defend your stance with logic and facts. I have to applaud you for that!

[Northman]

I like the situation you have set up top. If our post isn't about 3rd downs, we shouldn't post it because it's not on topic. But if it is on topic and disagreeing with the author, we should take it up with him instead of posting it here. You have done a masterful job of setting things up in a way in which you don't actually have to defend your stance with locig and facts. I have to applaud you for that!

Yea, that pretty much covers it. :lol:

[chazoe60]

Funny how the one post that mentions 3rd downs, Top COMPLETELY glosses over! Funny how he whines about us not being on topic but only responds to those posts he considers off-topic and ignores the ones that are on-topic.

(BTW, top has me on ignore but I'd appreciate it if someone quoted this so he could see what a hypocrite he is being)

Gahahajjdbjzjjsjnznx

[Mike]

As a mod, have you read the COC? You don't mind derailing threads? Have
you heard of PMs? If you have something to say about the way I post or
start threads, I suggest you take it up there.

As OP, I posted to discuss a topic. I do not have to tolerate derailing the topic.
And I will start all the threads I want.

-----

Good grief, you can be so childish at times, Larry. Create your threads, I never said you couldn't...just don't whine when people start taking you to the woodshed.

You are using the thread to defend the criticism of Orton. People are refuting your point. I don't see their posts as derailing but discussing Orton and his stats.

Again...you don't get to decide how and what people respond to your point. People start talking about purple headed monsters and I will consider it as off-topic/derailing.

[topscribe]

Good grief, you can be so childish at times, Larry. Create your threads, I never said you couldn't...just don't whine when people start taking you to the woodshed.

You are using the thread to defend the criticism of Orton. People are refuting your point. I don't see their posts as derailing but discussing Orton and his stats.

Again...you don't get to decide how and what people respond to your point. People start talking about purple headed monsters and I will consider it as off-topic/derailing.

I used the thread to post an article. That is what I used the thread for. That
should have been obvious.

Talking about Orton's record or coming back and accusing me of saying he
bears no responsibility for that record, or making me the topic does not
contribute to the topic of the thread. I don't know how you think it does.

(And you, as MOD, are making me the topic here.)

But there are certain people, after they are through trolling, baiting, flaming,
and derailing, finally do say something relevant, they have me to the point
where I don't even want to discuss the topic with them.

When someone whom I respect comes along and disagrees with me, then I
will discuss it here. The others can go over to Legwold's article, if they
want, and take it up with them.

And I will thank you for no more remarks on my character. I have not liked
some of the things you have posted, either, but I have not said anything.
If I do, it will be by PM, not here. It would be good for you to keep that in
mind . . .

------

[sanluis]

Who could do a better job than Orton on third down and 8 to 10 plus yards to go? The D has their ears pinned back and they know you are going to throw the ball. Who could be successful in that environment? Is Orton responsible for some of the 3rd down failures.. of course!!! But who has done a better job on third down??? not Payton, not Eli... not a lot of QBs. And if you think Tim Tebow would ... well put him in and see what happens... :lol::lol::lol:

[Northman]

Who could do a better job than Orton on third down and 8 to 10 plus yards to go? The D has their ears pinned back and they know you are going to throw the ball. Who could be successful in that environment? Is Orton responsible for some of the 3rd down failures.. of course!!! But who has done a better job on third down??? not Payton, not Eli... not a lot of QBs. And if you think Tim Tebow would ... well put him in and see what happens... :lol::lol::lol:

Thats what makes this so confusing. No one has said that Tebow would do better, in fact i havent seen this issue even discussed in weeks. So why bother bringing it up? The bottom line is the team is just not winning and many know that there are many contributing factors but we have known this all season long. Its just weird that someone would bring this up now when it hasnt been the topic of conversation for quite a while. Even then, seeing how the other QB's are doing in the W/L column makes this article ring very hollow. If Denver was winning ballgames i dont think the 3rd down issue would be a big deal.

[TXBRONC]

Who could do a better job than Orton on third down and 8 to 10 plus yards to go? The D has their ears pinned back and they know you are going to throw the ball. Who could be successful in that environment? Is Orton responsible for some of the 3rd down failures.. of course!!! But who has done a better job on third down??? not Payton, not Eli... not a lot of QBs. And if you think Tim Tebow would ... well put him in and see what happens... :lol::lol::lol:

Again are those quarterbacks and their teams winning games and in contention for the playoffs?

[topscribe]

He couldnt convert 3rd downs last year either and we had a running game.

You see, this is the ONLY post you have made in this thread that addresses
the topic (almost the only post by anybody, in fact).

I would have gladly discussed this with you at one point . . . :coffee:

-----

[Lancane]

Orton has only ever been a system quarterback, and he's a credit to that title. He may not be perfect, but three-quarters of the time he is playing spot on, fairly accurate with a decent arm...and let's be honest, Orton has been trying to carry this team at times, only to utterly fail.

Does Orton deserve the blame for the state of this team and where we are at? Hell no...but he a part of it, and when you lack the tangibles to be more then a system quarterback, then you'll get ridiculed because the fans expect more, especially from that position above all others.

He has no fire, no drive...there is no passion, and a few arm pumps in the fourth quarter when your coach has you padding your stats is not enough. 'Winners always want the football', it may have been a punchline in a movie, but it's true. Rivers may seem a big dumb kid, but he's playing lights out and he's passionate about the game, same with most of the others a top the passer rating charts. Orton may be playing flawless, but I would rather see him making more mistakes and act like he loves the game then just being a tool, doing what he's best at, fitting in a system, and the only one that he's ever fit in.

For those of us who watched Tebow at Florida, it's night and day the difference between the two on just that level alone. The greatest athletes in the NFL are not those who simply have talent or can do well at their respective positions...the greats have a fire in them to win, no matter the cost, to thrive on adversity and make things happen when needed, to cheer their team on, no matter what. Orton is not a franchise quarterback, he's not the answer to our woes, nor is he the cause...he's just another tool McDaniels brought in because he wanted to be the face of this franchise, the reason for wins and losses, well he got his wish.

I don't blame Orton, but I will credit him for flourishing in a system that he always has flourished in, because I've seen what happens out of the system. Because I see the flaws in his character and play that block him from being more...because he is not what some claim him to be, and never will be until he gets out of the system and changes what he needs to in order to surpass that image of him.

[Northman]

Orton has only ever been a system quarterback, and he's a credit to that title. He may not be perfect, but three-quarters of the time he is playing spot on, fairly accurate with a decent arm...and let's be honest, Orton has been trying to carry this team at times, only to utterly fail.

Does Orton deserve the blame for the state of this team and where we are at? Hell no...but he a part of it, and when you lack the tangibles to be more then a system quarterback, then you'll get ridiculed because the fans expect more, especially from that position above all others.

He has no fire, no drive...there is no passion, and a few arm pumps in the fourth quarter when your coach has you padding your stats is not enough. 'Winners always want the football', it may have been a punchline in a movie, but it's true. Rivers may seem a big dumb kid, but he's playing lights out and he's passionate about the game, same with most of the others a top the passer rating charts. Orton may be playing flawless, but I would rather see him making more mistakes and act like he loves the game then just being a tool, doing what he's best at, fitting in a system, and the only one that he's ever fit in.

For those of us who watched Tebow at Florida, it's night and day the difference between the two on just that level alone. The greatest athletes in the NFL are not those who simply have talent or can do well at their respective positions...the greats have a fire in them to win, no matter the cost, to thrive on adversity and make things happen when needed, to cheer their team on, no matter what. Orton is not a franchise quarterback, he's not the answer to our woes, nor is he the cause...he's just another tool McDaniels brought in because he wanted to be the face of this franchise, the reason for wins and losses, well he got his wish.

I don't blame Orton, but I will credit him for flourishing in a system that he always has flourished in, because I've seen what happens out of the system. Because I see the flaws in his character and play that block him from being more...because he is not what some claim him to be, and never will be until he gets out of the system and changes what he needs to in order to surpass that image of him.


I agree and disagree with some of the things you said here. I do believe that Orton is a system QB in the sense that he isnt going to win you ballgames by putting the team on his back. He can help keep you in games like this past weekend but when you need that game winning drive he comes up short more times than not. But, i do think he has passion and drive and cares about winning. I think he is a great leader on the field and tries his best to get the job done according to his ability. But if this team is too win a Championship they will need to go the route of the 2000 Ravens or 2002 Buccaneers because he isnt going to be the catalyst or crutch for this team. His decision making when things break down is his biggest weakness because he will either throw the pick or hold onto the ball too long and get sacked in key situations.

[guitarj]

Even if we had a decent rushing game, there are going to be times when we will need to convert 3rd downs, and times to close on game ending drives where the run game is not an option. Orton has had nearly 2 years to get it done, but has not.

When he has the whole paybook at his disposal, and gets a little time, he does well. He is a good game manager. The only way we go far with him is with a stellar defense.

[chazoe60]

You see, this is the ONLY post you have made in this thread that addresses
the topic (almost the only post by anybody, in fact).

I would have gladly discussed this with you at one point . . . :coffee:

-----

Way to stay on topic.

Orton stinks on 3rd down because like everything with Orton, amp up the pressure and the performance plummets. Just look at his QB rating in the 4th quarter of close games.

[I Eat Staples]

Other QBs failures do not excuse Orton's in any way, but people have said in the past that Orton can't be an elite QB because of his third down conversation rating. If Peyton Manning, who everyone agrees is an elite QB, has also struggled in this area, then the point is that Orton's 3rd down conversation rating should not be used as evidence to suggest he is not, or ever will be, an elite QB.

That is all, I will get my popcorn back out so please continue. :beer:

[topscribe]

Orton has only ever been a system quarterback, and he's a credit to that title. He may not be perfect, but three-quarters of the time he is playing spot on, fairly accurate with a decent arm...and let's be honest, Orton has been trying to carry this team at times, only to utterly fail.

Does Orton deserve the blame for the state of this team and where we are at? Hell no...but he a part of it, and when you lack the tangibles to be more then a system quarterback, then you'll get ridiculed because the fans expect more, especially from that position above all others.

He has no fire, no drive...there is no passion, and a few arm pumps in the fourth quarter when your coach has you padding your stats is not enough. 'Winners always want the football', it may have been a punchline in a movie, but it's true. Rivers may seem a big dumb kid, but he's playing lights out and he's passionate about the game, same with most of the others a top the passer rating charts. Orton may be playing flawless, but I would rather see him making more mistakes and act like he loves the game then just being a tool, doing what he's best at, fitting in a system, and the only one that he's ever fit in.

For those of us who watched Tebow at Florida, it's night and day the difference between the two on just that level alone. The greatest athletes in the NFL are not those who simply have talent or can do well at their respective positions...the greats have a fire in them to win, no matter the cost, to thrive on adversity and make things happen when needed, to cheer their team on, no matter what. Orton is not a franchise quarterback, he's not the answer to our woes, nor is he the cause...he's just another tool McDaniels brought in because he wanted to be the face of this franchise, the reason for wins and losses, well he got his wish.

I don't blame Orton, but I will credit him for flourishing in a system that he always has flourished in, because I've seen what happens out of the system. Because I see the flaws in his character and play that block him from being more...because he is not what some claim him to be, and never will be until he gets out of the system and changes what he needs to in order to surpass that image of him.

Orton says he has been studying Rivers. I do hope he does assume some
of Rivers' drive over time. I think maybe that translates to confidence. To
take over the game and will it to victory in a close game, I believe, involves
just that. Orton is young. Hopefully, that will come because he has a lot of
the rest of it together . . .

-----

[G_Money]

I'd prefer a breakdown of what 3rd downs we're not converting. If Peyton Manning can't get a 3rd and 1 converted because he has no running game, that's one thing. If we can't do it because it's 3rd and 10 instead, that's something else.

I agree, a better running game would make a HUGE difference in 3rd-and-short-yardage. But how many of those are we failing at vs. 3rd-and-long?

Also, here's the list of 3rd down conversion rates:


Rank Team 2010
1 New Orleans (8-3) 49.66%
2 Atlanta (9-2) 47.65%
3 New England (9-2) 45.16%
4 Indianapolis (6-5) 44.76%
5 Miami (6-5) 43.40%
6 Tampa Bay (7-4) 43.05%
7 San Diego (6-5) 42.96%
8 Jacksonville (6-5) 41.91%
9 Houston (5-6) 41.67%
10 Dallas (3-8) 41.30%
11 Philadelphia (7-4) 41.18%
12 Pittsburgh (8-3) 40.82%
13 Green Bay (7-4) 40.74%
14 Buffalo (2-9) 40.40%
15 Detroit (2-9) 39.66%
16 NY Jets (9-2) 39.62%
17 Cleveland (4-7) 39.44%
18 Baltimore (8-3) 38.89%
19 Kansas City (7-4) 37.84%
20 NY Giants (7-4) 37.68%
21 Cincinnati (2-9) 37.34%
22 St Louis (5-6) 36.42%
23 Tennessee (5-6) 36.11%
24 Minnesota (4-7) 35.97%
25 Seattle (5-6) 35.53%
26 San Francisco (4-7) 34.48%
27 Denver (3-8) 34.27%
28 Carolina (1-10) 32.28%
29 Chicago (8-3) 32.17%
30 Oakland (5-6) 32.03%
31 Arizona (3-8) 27.94%
32 Washington (5-6) 27.46%

Now, Peyton Manning is not great on third-down this year...but his TEAM is just fine. That team without a running game. How is his team converting so many 3rd downs if the running game is the thing that is stopping Orton from having success in the same area?

The Giants have an outstanding running game (6th in the league in yards, 5th in YPA). If having a great running game would help Orton, why isn't it helping Eli? Why is their 3rd down % so pedestrian period?

Weird article. If he's gonna make the point that a running attack and stopping the run (?) are the keys to being a good third down passer, then just throwing in the names of decent QBs who are also struggling on third down is not the best way to do it.

IMO, anyway.

Orton's 3rd down issues may be different than Peyton's or Eli's. Just maybe.

~G

[Northman]

I'd prefer a breakdown of what 3rd downs we're not converting. If Peyton Manning can't get a 3rd and 1 converted because he has no running game, that's one thing. If we can't do it because it's 3rd and 10 instead, that's something else.

I agree, a better running game would make a HUGE difference in 3rd-and-short-yardage. But how many of those are we failing at vs. 3rd-and-long?

Also, here's the list of 3rd down conversion rates:



Now, Peyton Manning is not great on third-down this year...but his TEAM is just fine. That team without a running game. How is his team converting so many 3rd downs if the running game is the thing that is stopping Orton from having success in the same area?

The Giants have an outstanding running game (6th in the league in yards, 5th in YPA). If having a great running game would help Orton, why isn't it helping Eli? Why is their 3rd down % so pedestrian period?

Weird article. If he's gonna make the point that a running attack and stopping the run (?) are the keys to being a good third down passer, then just throwing in the names of decent QBs who are also struggling on third down is not the best way to do it.

IMO, anyway.

Orton's 3rd down issues may be different than Peyton's or Eli's. Just maybe.

~G


Definitely puts it in a much clearer perspective.

[topscribe]

Even if we had a decent rushing game, there are going to be times when we will need to convert 3rd downs, and times to close on game ending drives where the run game is not an option. Orton has had nearly 2 years to get it done, but has not.

When he has the whole paybook at his disposal, and gets a little time, he does well. He is a good game manager. The only way we go far with him is with a stellar defense.

There is some truth in what you said. Of course, Orton needs a defense. But
any QB needs at least a respectable defense. This defense has not been
respectable.

But, as Legwold said in his article:



Against the Rams, the Broncos were never in a third-down play that was
shorter than third-and-8. Including penalty snaps, the Broncos were in
third-and-8 twice, third-and-10 four times, third-and-12 once, third-and-15
once, third-and-16 once and third-and-17.

Few quarterbacks would have much success with that.

Against the Chargers, including penalty snaps, the Broncos were in nine
situations of third-and-8 or worse, including three plays of at least third-and-20.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16736759

In other words, Orton has had very few opportunities at normal third down
situations. He can improve in that, yes, but, as Legwold implies, any QB's
performance will suffer under such circumstances.

-----

[topscribe]

I'd prefer a breakdown of what 3rd downs we're not converting. If Peyton Manning can't get a 3rd and 1 converted because he has no running game, that's one thing. If we can't do it because it's 3rd and 10 instead, that's something else.

I agree, a better running game would make a HUGE difference in 3rd-and-short-yardage. But how many of those are we failing at vs. 3rd-and-long?

Also, here's the list of 3rd down conversion rates:



Now, Peyton Manning is not great on third-down this year...but his TEAM is just fine. That team without a running game. How is his team converting so many 3rd downs if the running game is the thing that is stopping Orton from having success in the same area?

The Giants have an outstanding running game (6th in the league in yards, 5th in YPA). If having a great running game would help Orton, why isn't it helping Eli? Why is their 3rd down % so pedestrian period?

Weird article. If he's gonna make the point that a running attack and stopping the run (?) are the keys to being a good third down passer, then just throwing in the names of decent QBs who are also struggling on third down is not the best way to do it.

IMO, anyway.

Orton's 3rd down issues may be different than Peyton's or Eli's. Just maybe.

~G

And that's a good point, one I stress often: Simply glossing over isolated
factors can skew the facts. Good catch.

-----

[Lancane]

Orton says he has been studying Rivers. I do hope he does assume some
of Rivers' drive over time. I think maybe that translates to confidence. To
take over the game and will it to victory in a close game, I believe, involves
just that. Orton is young. Hopefully, that will come because he has a lot of
the rest of it together . . .

-----

I don't believe it can be done here, under such conditions. He has a head coach that if he praises you, then you have to lift a questioning eyebrow. After all, the same said coach said that your his guy only to trade for another possible starter capable quarterback and then use a first round pick on another. I'm sure the pressure is not sitting well with Kyle, he knows the fans or at least the majority don't want him as their quarterback. One thing will always hold true, and that is this town is harsh on quarterbacks - horrid defense...fine, questionable drafts...alright, issues with coaches...getting pissed, issues with the quarterback...'What in the hell, not here, not ever'!

In my opinion, Orton will need to use what all that's happened here and in Chicago and carry that to a new team, turning it into his fuel sort to speak, to light his fire...he needs to then put that passion out there on the field of play. And, it would be good if he could do it in a system that is not a variant of the spread, because that does hinder him and every mistake will be accredited to him, not the system.

[G_Money]

BTW, if it wasn't clear (I'm in a hurry I guess...) the highlighted teams on the list are quarterbacked by the guys mentioned in the article.

Donovan's team is the worst in the league at 3rd down conversions, and he's not helping.

The Ravens have a mediocre running attack somehow, and a mediocre conversion rate, and a mediocre QB conversion rate.

The Elder Manning is not having a good year personally on third down, but his team is a 3rd down juggernaut.

The Younger Manning isn't doing well either, even with a great rushing team, but that rushing game is not bringing up the team conversion rate much.

And then there's us - bottom 6 in conversion rate, no running game, and Orton's struggling in that area as well.

The closest parallel to our situation on that list is probably Washington - their running game is bottom quarter of the league, though not as bad as ours, their QB is struggling in that facet as well, both are trying to make new blocking schemes work with existing personnel...

If we were gonna compare our situation to anyone, IMO, it'd be Washington. The shotgun approach by the article writer of just pulling random QBs with known names and saying "even good QBs struggle with 3rd down %" while posting some half-assed rationale for that is just lazy.

~G

[topscribe]

I don't believe it can be done here, under such conditions. He has a head coach that if he praises you, then you have to lift a questioning eyebrow. After all, the same said coach said that your his guy only to trade for another possible starter capable quarterback and then use a first round pick on another. I'm sure the pressure is not sitting well with Kyle, he knows the fans or at least the majority don't want him as their quarterback. One thing will always hold true, and that is this town is harsh on quarterbacks - horrid defense...fine, questionable drafts...alright, issues with coaches...getting pissed, issues with the quarterback...'What in the hell, not here, not ever'!

In my opinion, Orton will need to use what all that's happened here and in Chicago and carry that to a new team, turning it into his fuel sort to speak, to light his fire...he needs to then put that passion out there on the field of play. And, it would be good if he could do it in a system that is not a variant of the spread, because that does hinder him and every mistake will be accredited to him, not the system.

That may be true, Cane. I would hope that he could realize his potential
here because I do not believe he has yet done that. But for his sake, that
may have to happen elsewhere.

For the sake of our team, I will continue to hold out hopes here, but . . .

-----

[Northman]

BTW, if it wasn't clear (I'm in a hurry I guess...) the highlighted teams on the list are quarterbacked by the guys mentioned in the article.

Donovan's team is the worst in the league at 3rd down conversions, and he's not helping.

The Ravens have a mediocre running attack somehow, and a mediocre conversion rate, and a mediocre QB conversion rate.

The Elder Manning is not having a good year personally on third down, but his team is a 3rd down juggernaut.

The Younger Manning isn't doing well either, even with a great rushing team, but that rushing game is not bringing up the team conversion rate much.

And then there's us - bottom 6 in conversion rate, no running game, and Orton's struggling in that area as well.

The closest parallel to our situation on that list is probably Washington - their running game is bottom quarter of the league, though not as bad as ours, their QB is struggling in that facet as well, both are trying to make new blocking schemes work with existing personnel...

If we were gonna compare our situation to anyone, IMO, it'd be Washington. The shotgun approach by the article writer of just pulling random QBs with known names and saying "even good QBs struggle with 3rd down %" while posting some half-assed rationale for that is just lazy.

~G


Makes sense.

[sanluis]

Again are those quarterbacks and their teams winning games and in contention for the playoffs?

And the other teams have a D that is not ranked last in points allowed as I believe the article pointed out.

I agree with you TX, Orton deserves some blame, not all and that there are other areas much more deserving of the bulk of blame for the season at this time. The solution?? I don't know but Orton is a very good QB IMO and Denver is lucky to have him IMO.

[Northman]

And the other teams have a D that is not ranked last in points allowed as I believe the article pointed out.

I agree with you TX, Orton deserves some blame, not all and that there are other areas much more deserving of the bulk of blame for the season at this time. The solution?? I don't know but Orton is a very good QB IMO and Denver is lucky to have him IMO.

He's servicable and works nicely in this scheme. But, its unfortuante that McD felt the need to draft a mobile QB instead of concentrating on the defense to help Orton out. Simply no direction whatsoever by this HC on what he wants to do.

[G_Money]

In other words, Orton has had very few opportunities at normal third down situations. He can improve in that, yes, but, as Legwold implies, any QB's performance will suffer under such circumstances.-----

And THERE's where I agree with Legwold. That's what not having a running game can do to you. An attempted run and a dropped pass puts you in 3rd and long by default with a running game as bad as ours.

The fact that the offense was working fine when we were willing and able to run it, then sputtered and died for 2 quarters when we went away from the ground game, then came flying back when the Rams started playing prevent defense means something. Orton folding on the last drive once the Rams started playing actual defense again means something too.

Josh's offensive game plans scare me. We're throwing the ball 65% of the time. Top 10 teams in passing plays:


1 Arizona (3-8) 66.93%
2 Indianapolis (6-5) 66.14%
3 Detroit (2-9) 65.97%
4 Denver (3-8) 64.83%
5 New Orleans (8-3) 63.70%
6 Washington (5-6) 63.53%
7 Dallas (3-8) 62.72%
8 Cincinnati (2-9) 62.57%
9 Seattle (5-6) 62.14%
10 Buffalo (2-9) 59.91%

That stat would seem to indicate to me that unless you have an MVP quarterback named Brees or Manning that passing all the time is a good way to lose.

That's not necessarily on Orton - expecting him to be Brees is too much - but it is a problem. Orton is doing everything he CAN do. Asking him to do things he can't do is part of what's got us in this mess.

~G

[topscribe]

He's servicable and works nicely in this scheme. But, its unfortuante that McD felt the need to draft a mobile QB instead of concentrating on the defense to help Orton out. Simply no direction whatsoever by this HC on what he wants to do.

Your posts always seem to piss me off - but not always at you. :laugh:

When I think of the defensive talent still available at that point . . . :mad:

-----

[topscribe]

And THERE's where I agree with Legwold. That's what not having a running game can do to you. An attempted run and a dropped pass puts you in 3rd and long by default with a running game as bad as ours.

The fact that the offense was working fine when we were willing and able to run it, then sputtered and died for 2 quarters when we went away from the ground game, then came flying back when the Rams started playing prevent defense means something. Orton folding on the last drive once the Rams started playing actual defense again means something too.

Josh's offensive game plans scare me. We're throwing the ball 65% of the time. Top 10 teams in passing plays:

That stat would seem to indicate to me that unless you have an MVP quarterback named Brees or Manning that passing all the time is a good way to lose.

That's not necessarily on Orton - expecting him to be Brees is too much - but it is a problem. Orton is doing everything he CAN do. Asking him to do things he can't do is part of what's got us in this mess.

~G

I know it may be viewed as my blind support of Orton, but the last series
of the Rams game is a case in point. On first down, Walton snapped the
ball prematurely, as Orton was coming up to the line, so Orton was called.
On second down, Graham bricked the pass that went right to his hands.
The third down pass looked like a horrible throw, but replays showed that
Chris Long hit Orton's arm as Orton was passing.

Orton is just like other QBs . . . he needs help.


Regarding the play-calling, not one run was called in all the second quarter,
IIRC. That was after all that success running in the first quarter. :confused:

-----

[Northman]

Your posts always seem to piss me off - but not always at you. :laugh:

When I think of the defensive talent still available at that point . . . :mad:

-----

I can admit that Orton is better than i thought he would ever be. And i can see that had there been some moves (keeping Hillis, not drafting Tebow) that this team probably would be in better shape and winning more with Orton behind center. It just pisses me off that McD has no real direction and doesnt understand what it takes to utilize his current roster to their full potential and what it takes to help them succeed. Its frustrating.

[topscribe]

I can admit that Orton is better than i thought he would ever be. And i can see that had there been some moves (keeping Hillis, not drafting Tebow) that this team probably would be in better shape and winning more with Orton behind center. It just pisses me off that McD has no real direction and doesnt understand what it takes to utilize his current roster to their full potential and what it takes to help them succeed. Its frustrating.

Orton is not Elway. Who is? He could convert more of those third-and-longs
than Orton can. Whom couldn't he?

We have witnessed maybe three of four QBs, if that, over our entire lives,
who could quarterback bad teams to any level of the playoffs. Madden
once said, "Elway is the closest thing to a one-man gang I have ever
seen."

Orton can be a good QB - everything we need, IMO. But not without at
least a respectable defense . . .

-----

[Lancane]

That may be true, Cane. I would hope that he could realize his potential
here because I do not believe he has yet done that. But for his sake, that
may have to happen elsewhere.

For the sake of our team, I will continue to hold out hopes here, but . . .

-----

I don't see it happening Top, not now...the damage is done, McDaniels has been marred with criticism for padding Orton's stats by his peers, many will question the stats more and more, and if by chance Orton get's into the Pro-Bowl, a lot of analytical minds will question if he's deserving of that honor, including looking at the system and the coach, who is now marred by cheating allegations, and what factor they played in his success.

Top, you played College ball like me, remember what we called quarterbacks like Orton? 'Cool Hand Lukes', because they're calm, collected and play to be mistake free, a typical system quarterback usually falls into that category. Whereas the wild gunslingers are referred to as 'Lone Rangers', because they'll try to do whatever it takes to win, even if they have to do it themselves. The ultimate quarterbacks are the combination of those two; the passionate, deadliness of the gunslinger mixed with the poise and almost mechanical flawlessness of the system quarterbacks. What's worse is that the majority of Denver fans love gunslingers, we love that wildness and the passion they bring, but it wasn't till Elway met the west coast offense under Shanahan that the two mixed and the pieces were in place, but he still was more of a gunslinger. We had a new one in Cutler, but McDaniels ruined that...so the resentment had already begun, and so when we look at Orton we think about Cutler, and we get more pissed.

McDaniels may one day be a good coach, but in my honest opinion it will not be here, because the damage is done, and some of that damage has marred Orton, he's a 'Cool Hand Luke', has he reached his ceiling? Who knows, you may be right on the money with your assessment of him, that he can still grow...but the fans or the majority don't support your opinion, they want passion, they miss the gunslinger and Orton as he is now is not that quarterback. I wish him luck, but not here in Denver...after all, I have an affinity for the 'Lone Rangers' over the 'Cool Hand Lukes', and always have.

[G_Money]

Orton isn't any worse than Eli Manning. He is probably better. If the Giants can win a Super Bowl with Eli Manning then the Broncos can win one with Neckbeard Orton.

But they have to make a CHOICE. Do you continue with Orton and see if you can win with the type of QB he is, or do you go with the rookie Tebow and see if you can mold him into a pro QB?

My problem with leaving McDaniels in charge of personnel and this team is that you NEVER want the guy on the cusp of leaving to have a chance to handicap the next guy coming in.

If he trades Orton OR Tebow he's removed that choice for the next guy.

We could conceivably run with Orton at QB for next year or several years. We could start Tebow this weekend and Orton could never take another snap for us.

Tebow was a first round pick and he cost us a couple of defenders to sign. We could get back draftpicks by trading Orton to Arizona or some other QB-needy team and recoup what we spent on Tebow. Or we could let Tebow be the backup - he's not signed to an expensive contract for that position at 5 years/11.25 million - and roll with Orton while sucking up the draftpick losses.

The call on Orton is not "Which QB can win" because both have that chance. The call is on which fits the offense for the 2011-2015 Broncos, and how best to deploy the one who loses out.

I want the NEXT guy to make that call, not the current guy that I expect to be gone by half-way through next year at latest. Nor is he the guy I want making a defense-heavy draft to fit a scheme that may not be around once he's gone, to fit a coach's scheme who will not be here either.

~G

[Northman]

Orton is not Elway. Who is? He could convert more of those third-and-longs
than Orton can. Who can't?

We have witnessed maybe three of four QBs, if that, over our entire lives,
who could quarterback bad teams to any level of the playoffs. Madden
once said, "Elway is the closest thing to a one-man gang I have ever
seen."

Orton can be a good QB - everything we need, IMO. But not without at
least a respectable defense . . .

-----


For me, im not really wanting him to be Elway. Frankly, im ready for Denver to have a new "hero" and have for a while. I gave Brian, Jake, Jay, etc all the support to be the guy. But all in their own way have crumbled to some degree or failed in one aspect or another just on their own merits. Im all for allowing Kyle to be the guy but deep down i know its not only going to take a much better defense but a lot more help than say a Manning or Brady type of player of which neither one of those guys compares to Elway in my book despite their own greatness.

Thing is, i was one of the few that was extremely pissed off on draft day when we took Tebow because McD said that Orton needed more time in the system and that he felt he did fine in 09'. So i was scratching my head as too why he would draft a QB especially after he traded Hillis for Quinn. Shit just didnt make sense. Now, we have Orton playing very well and a 1st round QB sitting on the bench. Orton is not old so the move made zero sense to me. I can live with Orton being the QB for Denver, just so as long as the HC does what he needs to surround him with the right players to achieve that success. So far, i dont have much faith in McD for that job.

[Elevation inc]

jay cutler was harrassed because of his pretty stats, bad 3rd down% and crucial int's and turnovers in key moments and win record......how is kyle different right now??? kyle is simply finding out how life as jay cutler was here...without a run game and defense....

the dude is like 11-16 as a starter in denver.....thats like brady quinn bad in clevland

[KCL]

I may be speaking out of line...in fact I probably am but I don't care...but you guys argue about the dumbest shit..this isn't directed at everyone that posted in this thread.

okay...tell me to shut up if you feel the need...I also don't care about that.

I tend to agree with what SanLuis has posted in here about Orton.

[topscribe]

jay cutler was harrassed because of his pretty stats, bad 3rd down% and crucial int's and turnovers in key moments and win record......how is kyle different right now??? kyle is simply finding out how life as jay cutler was here...without a run game and defense....

the dude is like 11-16 as a starter in denver.....thats like brady quinn bad in clevland

Word.

-----

[Elevation inc]

I may be speaking out of line...in fact I probably am but I don't care...but you guys argue about the dumbest shit..this isn't directed at everyone that posted in this thread.

okay...tell me to shut up if you feel the need...I also don't care about that.

I tend to agree with what SanLuis has posted in here about Orton.

SHUSH KCL...hahaha

[Northman]

I may be speaking out of line...in fact I probably am but I don't care...but you guys argue about the dumbest shit..this isn't directed at everyone that posted in this thread.

okay...tell me to shut up if you feel the need...I also don't care about that.

I tend to agree with what SanLuis has posted in here about Orton.

You know, we dont need you poking your snooty nose in our bickering. Do you mind? ;)

[KCL]

SHUSH KCL...hahaha


You know, we dont need you poking your snooty nose in our bickering. Do you mind? ;)

KMA....:lol:

[BroncoNut]

I may be speaking out of line...in fact I probably am but I don't care...but you guys argue about the dumbest shit..this isn't directed at everyone that posted in this thread.

okay...tell me to shut up if you feel the need...I also don't care about that.

I tend to agree with what SanLuis has posted in here about Orton.

who, might I ask, is it specifically directed at?

[I Eat Staples]

I can live with Orton being the QB for Denver, just so as long as the HC does what he needs to surround him with the right players to achieve that success. So far, i dont have much faith in McD for that job.

Exactly how I feel, only I have a higher view of Orton than you do. I'd like Orton signed long-term, Tebow gone, and a real HC that can build a real team around Orton, who I feel is an upper-tier starting QB.


I may be speaking out of line...in fact I probably am but I don't care...but you guys argue about the dumbest shit..this isn't directed at everyone that posted in this thread.

okay...tell me to shut up if you feel the need...I also don't care about that.

I tend to agree with what SanLuis has posted in here about Orton.

Shut up.

[topscribe]

Exactly how I feel, only I have a higher view of Orton than you do. I'd like Orton signed long-term, Tebow gone, and a real HC that can build a real team around Orton, who I feel is an upper-tier starting QB.


Well, Orton is posting upper-tier numbers, even w/o a running game (which
has gotten better over the last 2-3 games) and w/o a decent defense.

He does, however, need to improve, even in his third-and-longs, IMO. But I'm
with you in that he has not seen his ultimate upside yet.

-----

[TXBRONC]

His decision making when things break down is his biggest weakness because he will either throw the pick or hold onto the ball too long and get sacked in key situations.

This is why I'm not convinced that Orton can get the job done even if we have great defense like that of the Ravens or the Buccaneers. The Ravens and Buccaneers hit just right winning it all with a journeyman quarterback but they only did it once each. Since each team won it they haven't been back since.

[BroncoNut]

I may be speaking out of line....

You should have stopped right there ^

[Northman]

This is why I'm not convinced that Orton can get the job done even if we have great defense like that of the Ravens or the Buccaneers. The Ravens and Buccaneers hit just right winning it all with a journeyman quarterback but they only did it once each. Since each team won it they haven't been back since.


Yea, its not that i blame Orton for not having great mobility (at times he can get out) because Manning and Brady dont have much either. But those guys can read defenses very well and have quick releases. Bronconut could probably attest when watching the game Sunday that i was screaming at the TV when Orton got sacked on that last drive. He was holding onto the ball for way to long and thats part of the inconsistency that ive seen from him throughout his career. But, i can live with that so as long as we build around him because you can get away with it when you have a great defense, etc. But as you said, those are generally one and done teams but as a fan im desperate and i would take another title right now even if it was just for one year. :lol:

[KCL]

You should have stopped right there ^

Maybe but I didn't so there............................................. .........

[Ravage!!!]

MUCh harder to build a defense to support a QB.

[KCL]

who, might I ask, is it specifically directed at?

Maybe you...maybe not you!

[topscribe]

Yea, its not that i blame Orton for not having great mobility (at times he can get out) because Manning and Brady dont have much either. But those guys can read defenses very well and have quick releases. Bronconut could probably attest when watching the game Sunday that i was screaming at the TV when Orton got sacked on that last drive. He was holding onto the ball for way to long and thats part of the inconsistency that ive seen from him throughout his career. But, i can live with that so as long as we build around him because you can get away with it when you have a great defense, etc. But as you said, those are generally one and done teams but as a fan im desperate and i would take another title right now even if it was just for one year. :lol:

North, Manning and Brady get sacked, too. And they have had better O-lines
(although the Broncos' O-line is starting to come together now).

But if you're talking about the play where Chis Long came around and
Harris whiffed on him, Long came up from behind Orton. Sometimes, a QB
has to wait to get somebody open, and apparently Orton thought he had
the time, not seeing Long.

When a rusher puts an outside move on the tackle, it often takes the play
behind the QB. At that point, the QB just has to trust the tackle because
he can't be looking behind him and downfield, too.

-----

[Northman]

MUCh harder to build a defense to support a QB.

I dont know if its harder but it does take longer so as long as your making the right choices.

[Northman]

North, Manning and Brady get sacked, too. And they have had better O-lines
(although the Broncos' O-line is starting to come together now).

But if you're talking about the play where Chis Long came around and
Harris whiffed on him, Long came up from behind Orton. Sometimes, a QB
has to wait to get somebody open, and apparently Orton thought he had
the time, not seeing Long.

When a rusher puts an outside move on the tackle, it often takes the play
behind the QB. At that point, the QB just has to trust the tackle because
he can't be looking behind him and downfield, too.

-----

All understandable (god i wish we had Long) but that is something that Orton needs to be aware of. In fact, all QB's need to be aware of that. And with the state of the youth on the Oline Orton needs to understand he's not going to have that 5-7 second cushion you might get with a veteran Oline. I understand that not every sack is his fault but in cases like those with the game on the line the decision making has just got to improve. Maybe it will but right now i havent seen an improvement in that aspect of his game.

[G_Money]

I view Orton like I view Jake Plummer. Can he win games with a half-decent defense and a running game? Yes. Can he win a championship? I don't think so.

At this point, would I just like to win games again? Yes.

I don't think Orton is the guy I want running the show when we're trying for the Super Bowl. Maybe Tebow is, maybe he isn't. Odds are he's not any better than Orton, just different, but you never know.

I do know that unless you have 2 of 3 key ingredients (a HOF-level QB, a HOF coach and a world-class defense) that you probably haven't won a SB since the 70s. If you're only gonna have one, then you need a world-class defense, potentially an all-time defense, and we don't have that. I doubt we'll ever have that.

So we need a great QB and a great coach, and a "good enough" defense. Right now I don't think Orton qualifies and I'm positive that McDaniels doesn't. I'm more worried about the coach than the QB right now, though.

~G

[BroncoStud]

I know, I know. That doesn't make the Broncos' record look any better.

But it should shed some light on what is behind the 3rd down issue - that is,
to those with an open mind . . .

-----

You don't have an open mind about this Orton situation either... You can have Orton, I'll take Flacco or Peyton Manning all day long. You can keep McNabb as well, he's done.

[BroncoStud]

North, Manning and Brady get sacked, too. And they have had better O-lines
(although the Broncos' O-line is starting to come together now).

But if you're talking about the play where Chis Long came around and
Harris whiffed on him, Long came up from behind Orton. Sometimes, a QB
has to wait to get somebody open, and apparently Orton thought he had
the time, not seeing Long.

When a rusher puts an outside move on the tackle, it often takes the play
behind the QB. At that point, the QB just has to trust the tackle because
he can't be looking behind him and downfield, too.

-----

5 years in the NFL and not ONE signature victory for Orton... You praise him like he's the 2nd coming of Unitas... Orton held on to that ball on the Long sack for WAY, count it WAY too long. Get rid of the ball when you don't have timeouts to take, period. If you don't get rid of it you had better step up in the pocket and start running to throw - oh wait, Kyle can't run...

I wasn't alive when the Broncos played in the AFL, I was barely old enough to remember Elway's debut, but I've watched enough football in my life to know a DECENT QB, and a really GOOD QB. Orton is decent, he doesn't suck, he tries his hardest - but that's all he is.

As usual, right on time, Orton leads yet another unsuccessful 4th quarter drive. I know, I know, it's not his fault. Forces are working against him that he can't control. No timeouts and less than 2 minutes to go his coach isn't running the triple option to help him on 3rd downs. Things that Elway NEVER complained about when he was leading comebacks against all odds. I don't remember many of the greats having all day long to throw the football to wide open WRs. Watch Tom Brady now, he moves around in the pocket and avoids the pass rush, he buys himself and his WRs time to get open. Why can't Orton be expected to do the same?

Meanwhile, turn the channel over to the Bills/Steelers game and you watch an inexperienced Ryan Fitzpatrick toss a PERFECT 50 yard bomb to Steve Johnson and it's dropped. Fitzpatrick didn't look flustered or nervous on that last drive against the scariest defense in the NFL, he looked poised and actually moved around to avoid defenders.

Putting Orton in the company of Manning/Brady is a joke when he isn't even in the company of Ryan Fitzpatrick. If meaningless passing yards between the 20's put players in the NFL, Orton would be a 1st ballot HOF, but since TDs, wins, conversions, poise, leadership, improvision, all of those things go into making a QB great, Orton proves to be what he is, a decent QB.

Nothing more, nothing less. Like Kerry Collins, he is a very solid passer if he has all day to throw, if not, he's not good.

Orton has a good attitude and he has picked up the offense well, but he's the 3rd best starting QB in the AFC West, behind Rivers and Cassel. Cassel is doing a hell of a job buying time and making plays. Cassel flourished in this system leading his team to an 11-5 record. I can't wait for the day that this Harry High School offense, this Harry High School Coach, and Kyle Orton are a distant memory for this organization. Mediocrity never won any team a Super Bowl, and this day and age it won't even keep stadiums full.

[sanluis]

Here's what some of your rival fans think of Orton and what not...


JCdavey

Kyle Orton
even though denver sucks, their oline has degraded into poop, their running game has abandoned them most of the season, and their defense is horrible.... how about kyle orton

look at these numbers in his 27 game denver career thus far :


27 games played, 41 tds, 18 ints, 7172 yards, 6 fumbles, 4 lost (not bad for as much as he gets hit in his 58 sacks) and a 7.39 yards per attempt

this year alone, orton is leading the nfl in yardage, i think 2nd in yards per attempt (a full yard in back of rivers but rivers is amazing in that stat) and he's already only 1 td back of his entire 2009 td total, with 6 less ints than all of 2009

the guy is soooo much more efficient than jay cutler, and can often get his team back in contention unlike jay cutler's denver experience. the thing that seperates him from rivers right now is, his lack of comeback wins, he can get his team back in the game at times, but he just can't seal the deal, i saw a stat where his 4th qtr qb rating with the game within 7 points, is 64.9 or something....that's ass, but damn are his numbers impressive

it's a shame that anyone would lay denver's woes at that guys feet, he's been solid.

http://forums.chargers.com/showthread.php?t=85728

[BroncoStud]

(Same thread)

CHARGERBOMB

"Orton hasn't been good in the clutch and he's not a leader.

I respect the guy and he does well statistically in McDaniels' pass-happy offense, but he is limited in what he can do for you. He can complete a million bubble screens and even showed a little ability to stretch the field, but he doesn't elevate his play when it counts and he doesn't inspire his team to victory.

Tebow will ultimately be a better QB for them because he is a natural leader, like Rivers. That is the biggest thing they are missing"

So who's right?

[sanluis]

So who's right?

They could both be right. When Tim gets his chance, and he is ready , he could be a better QB that Orton. I would trust the coaches, who's jobs depend on the results,to know when Tim is going to be ready.

[BroncoStud]

They could both be right. When Tim gets his chance, and he is ready , he could be a better QB that Orton. I would trust the coaches, who's jobs depend on the results,to know when Tim is going to be ready.

Dude we can't trust McDaniels. He doesn't have this team prepared half the time and he is battling demons in the front office and among his coaching staff.

It's making a lot of sense now... Regardless of what happened it seems like Cuter met this guy and knew he didn't want to be here. When your own coaches are leaking information to the public it's time to make a change.

I don't know how good Tebow is/isn't but we all know what Orton is capable of. He's been the best producer this season for the Broncos but he isn't winning games. He's blown 3 possible comebacks. Denver's record and McDaniels job would look a lot better right now if the Broncos had 6 wins.

[Jake Klug]

Here is our problem. Orton has a one year contract and we're looking at a rebuild on defense that is longer than one year. We're old on defense and we've been putting off investing in defensive linemen since Methuzeleh was a boy. We need to invest in some defensive linemen through the draft. Face the facts. The league has so thoroughly disarmed DBs on pass defense over the past 10 years that defending the pass is almost exclusively about pressuring the QB. And this has actually always been sound reasoning.

But if you rely on FA, other teams value good linemen so much that you typically see better DBs in FA than you find quality defensive linemen. This year it seems Shaun Rogers might be an option but he will be costly and is north of 30. We need to invest in quality defensive linemen in the draft and this might take a couple of years to pay dividends. Again, Orton is on a one year contract.

But we also have an aging secondary...but thats secondary compared to drafting front 7 help. Its really inexplicable how McDaniels hasnt drafted more quality defensive linemen with all the draft picks he's had. Its inexcusable really. We werent at a rebuild 2 years ago, but we are now. Maybe it would be better to trade Orton for a 2nd and help the defense?

The idea to trade Orton, is actually as much about improving the defense as it is about Tebow...maybe moreso.

[sanluis]

Dude we can't trust McDaniels. He doesn't have this team prepared half the time and he is battling demons in the front office and among his coaching staff.

It's making a lot of sense now... Regardless of what happened it seems like Cuter met this guy and knew he didn't want to be here. When your own coaches are leaking information to the public it's time to make a change.

I don't know how good Tebow is/isn't but we all know what Orton is capable of. He's been the best producer this season for the Broncos but he isn't winning games. He's blown 3 possible comebacks. Denver's record and McDaniels job would look a lot better right now if the Broncos had 6 wins.


OK, but why get rid of or blame the best thing you have going? === Orton

He is the only bright spot I see for Denver this year.

[chazoe60]

I think it's telling that a lot of fans of rival teams really want us to keep Orton. :laugh:

[topscribe]

They could both be right. When Tim gets his chance, and he is ready , he could be a better QB that Orton. I would trust the coaches, who's jobs depend on the results,to know when Tim is going to be ready.

That's just the point. Tebow apparently is nowhere near ready, at least to
win games. Otherwise, why hasn't he been trusted to throw a pass, other
than a little 3-yarder down at the goal line?

He may be better than Orton. It's going to be tough, when you consider Orton
is #2 in yardage, #3 DVOA, #6 DYAR, with a 96.0 QBR, while dealing with one
of the worst defenses the Broncos have ever had, plus no running game, up
until the last 2-3 (and then McDaniels doesn't let them run one time in the
2nd quarter in this last one).

The only real weakness that can be pointed out is 3rd down conversions.
What the author of the article in the OP was pointing out was simply that
even the best QBs struggle when faced with 3rd-and-longs.

And when we played you, Orton had only two plays as short as 3rd & 8,
IIRC, and in this last game the story was the same. Legwold pointed that
out, McDaniels pointed that out, and Orton pointed that out.

When good veteran QBs have a problem with it, I don't know how a rookie
QB, who has thrown all of one pass, for 3 yards, is going to do any better . . .

-----

[Jake Klug]

OK, but why get rid of or blame the best thing you have going? === Orton

He is the only bright spot I see for Denver this year.

Was Herschel Walker not the best thing the Cowboys had going when they traded him? Wasnt that why they traded him?

[topscribe]

Was Herschel Walker not the best thing the Cowboys had going when they traded him? Wasnt that why they traded him?

They traded Walker because they got eight draft choices back for him, IIRC.

If they can get eight choices for Orton, then maybe they should go for it.

Or not . . . QB is the most important position on the team, and Orton is the
only proven commodity at that position.

-----

[G_Money]

Here's what some of your rival fans think of Orton and what not...


the guy is soooo much more efficient than jay cutler, and can often get his team back in contention unlike jay cutler's denver experience.
http://forums.chargers.com/showthread.php?t=85728

Um...

Perhaps people forgot about Jay's driving us up and down the field in Cleveland or other games to single-handedly bring games back into reach with our atrocious defense.

As far as "more efficient" goes:


Completion percentage:

Kyle Orton: 61.8%
Jay Cutler: 61.6%

Average per completion:

Orton: 7.9
Cutler: 7.9

TD/INT:

Orton: 20/6
Cutler: 16/10

Sacks:

Orton: 29
Cutler: 37 (leading the league)

Rating:

Orton: 96.0
Cutler: 90.4

He does turn the ball over less. Maybe that's what they meant by "more efficient." Though the pick differential is from one game, Washington.

Orton is doing great in the offense. I don't think he's doing anything Cutler couldn't do, or a few other QBs.

I might still be under-rating Orton though. He's too much like Plummer for me, while for some people that would be considered a compliment. He IS pretty careful with the ball, and he's been finding his targets better on 10+ yard passes than ever before, two very good things.

~G

[sanluis]

Was Herschel Walker not the best thing the Cowboys had going when they traded him? Wasnt that why they traded him?

interesting... and if you can get what Dallas did for Orton, Tebow or anyone on your roster --- I would jump on that deal!! :shocked::lol::D

[Jake Klug]

They traded Walker because they got eight draft choices back for him, IIRC.

If they can get eight choices for Orton, then maybe they should go for it.

Or not . . . QB is the most important position on the team, and Orton is the
only proven commodity at that position.

-----

Im well aware Walker netted a ton of choices. But Dallas made the decision to make the trade because they needed more draft choices to turn the corner. If keeping Walker would have meant they were closer to turning the corner, they would have kept him.

Thats where Denver is now on defense.

[Jake Klug]

interesting... and if you can get what Dallas did for Orton, Tebow or anyone on your roster --- I would jump on that deal!! :shocked::lol::D

Id take a 2nd for Orton, unless theyre going to commit to him beyond one year, in which case, Tebow becomes moveable.

[topscribe]

Id take a 2nd for Orton, unless theyre going to commit to him beyond one year, in which case, Tebow becomes moveable.

Well, that's just it. Before I traded a QB, I would want to know for sure I had another one . . .

-----

[sanluis]

Id take a 2nd for Orton, unless theyre going to commit to him beyond one year, in which case, Tebow becomes moveable.

That's cool. I understand you want picks to get the D back on track. With Denver's current front office, I wouldn't put to much hope in their ability to find talent. And Looking back at the picks they got for Jay they seem wasted to me now. That might not be true , but it seems that way to me.

[GEM]

Well, that's just it. Before I traded a QB, I would want to know for sure I had another one . . .

-----

Won't know that unless Orton sits on the bench. I don't want to know what Tebow can do in camp or on a practice field. Seems now would be the time to figure that out.

[G_Money]

The only real weakness that can be pointed out is 3rd down conversions.
What the author of the article in the OP was pointing out was simply that
even the best QBs struggle when faced with 3rd-and-longs.-----

Actually, the stat that most people want changed:


Behind by 1-8 points: 59 of 100, 699 yards, 2 TD, 5 INT, 66.2 QB rating

Last two minutes of a half: 46-of-80, 540 yards, 5 TD, 2 INT, 88.5 QB rating

Close or late, Orton is pretty average. When trailing by a lot or ahead by a lot he's a monster.

That "other guy" Cutler:

Behind by 1-8 points: 77 of 123, 1,044 yards, 8 TD, 5 INT, 94.4 QB rating

Last 2 minutes of a half: 26-of-39, 390 yards, 6 TD, 1 INT, 128.2 QB rating

Valid or not, Orton gives that perception that he's not the guy to lead you to victory if you're down by a score with a few secon ds on the clock. The numbers back it up this year. Maybe it's small sample size. Last year he was more mediocre when ahead by a score and far less good when down by a lot.

Last year he was better when within 7 in the 4th, this year he's at his worst in that scenario. Maybe it's playcalling, or an illusion, but it's THAT number that makes me question whether Orton can succeed long-term as a viable champion.

It reminds me too much of The No-Mistake version of Jake. Not screwing anything up is fine until you need a score or you lose the game. Then the willingness to take risks is important, crucial even.

Maybe we're beating that risk-taking out of Orton (not that he ever had a lot of it) in order to make him better in the rest of the game. It's not helping us win, though.

~G

[Jake Klug]

Well, that's just it. Before I traded a QB, I would want to know for sure I had another one . . .

-----

It doesnt matter. Orton isnt going to make us win without a lot of help. If trading Orton can help us get that kind of a defense, then they should do it. That kind of a defense would help a lot of Qbs win.

[topscribe]

Won't know that unless Orton sits on the bench. I don't want to know what Tebow can do in camp or on a practice field. Seems now would be the time to figure that out.

It's not important for us to find out. It's important for the coaches. And they
have seen both players every single day through camp, preseason, and now
regular season. I'm sure they have a pretty good feel for when Tebow will or
will not be ready. If he is still a project, then he's still a project. If it is close,
then they might have to put him in to find out. As it stands, it must not be
close . . .

-----

[G_Money]

Right - we NEED to know if Tebow is capable of replacing Orton. To know that you have to start a QB controversy by benching a guy on pace for 5000 yards and letting the rookie play once we've been eliminated from the playoffs. That should be Sunday.

The only reason not to do that, other than to avoid hurting Orton's feelings and/or pocketbook, is because you plan to run with Orton in 2011 and beyond, and Tebow was a mistake that you're just going to eat and play as a backup QB until Orton gets hurt.

But based on Josh's past actions, I would absolutely believe he would play Orton through the last play of the season, then start 2011 with Tebow at the help and no real game reps to work the kinks out.

That seems like his planning style.

~G

[Jake Klug]

That's cool. I understand you want picks to get the D back on track. With Denver's current front office, I wouldn't put to much hope in their ability to find talent. And Looking back at the picks they got for Jay they seem wasted to me now. That might not be true , but it seems that way to me.

Well, relying on Orton has proven not to be the answer. And you make solid points about the recent drafts. But Im not assuming the same people will be drafting.

Pats infatuation with New England was/is so stupid. Tom Brady is/was an elite QB. Orton isnt. To assume you can have what NE had without Brady is questionable reasoning. The better model to follow would have been something that doesnt require finding a needle in a haystack (like finding an elite QB with a low round pick). Baltimore would have been a better model to blueprint off of.

[topscribe]

It doesnt matter. Orton isnt going to make us win without a lot of help. If trading Orton can help us get that kind of a defense, then they should do it. That kind of a defense would help a lot of Qbs win.

Nobody is going to win without help. It's a team game. Elway is retired. Everyone
else needs help. (Actually, he needed help, too.) No QB is going to do any good
with the team at the bottom of the league in the running game and on defense.

(Well, now Knowshon is showing up, and he has close to a 5.0 YPC. If only
McDaniels will call some running plays now . . . )

-----

[G_Money]

Tebow's getting second-team reps, top, against 2nd team defenders. On this team that makes them like 5th team defenders on other teams.

How do you tell if he's ready by playing him against our defense in practice? We make everyone look good.

~G

[Jake Klug]

It's not important for us to find out. It's important for the coaches. And they
have seen both players every single day through camp, preseason, and now
regular season. I'm sure they have a pretty good feel for when Tebow will or
will not be ready. If he is still a project, then he's still a project. If it is close,
then they might have to put him in to find out. As it stands, it must not be
close . . .

-----

Backups typically get limited reps in practice and coaches (especially floundering ones) are focused on their next opponent in a way that they dont necessarily see Tebow as an option.

[Jake Klug]

Nobody is going to win without help. It's a team game. Elway is retired. Everyone
else needs help. (Actually, he needed help, too.) No QB is going to do any good
with the team at the bottom of the league in the running game and on defense.

(Well, now Knowshon is showing up, and he has close to a 5.0 YPC. If only
McDaniels will call some running plays now . . . )

-----

Yeah, but what Im pointing out to you is that Orton needs the kind of help that a lot of QBs can win with. Orton has done a good job in a pass happy offense that has padded his stats with meaningless yards.


Teams that have everything but a QB is where he would fit in well and who we should look to trade him to because thats where his value is enhanced.

[topscribe]

Tebow's getting second-team reps, top, against 2nd team defenders. On this team that makes them like 5th team defenders on other teams.

How do you tell if he's ready by playing him against our defense in practice? We make everyone look good.

~G

Guess you'll have to take that up with the coaches. But more goes into
practice than playing against defenses. Accuracy is accuracy. How
comfortable a player is in the pocket can be assessed at that time. In fact,
that might be a good reason we haven't seen Tebow: If he isn't doing as well
as he should against the Broncos defenses in practice, how is he going to do
against real defenses in the real world?

Crap. It just might be worse than we thought . . .

-----

[topscribe]

Yeah, but what Im pointing out to you is that Orton needs the kind of help that a lot of QBs can win with. Orton has done a good job in a pass happy offense that has padded his stats with meaningless yards.


Teams that have everything but a QB is where he would fit in well and who we should look to trade him to because thats where his value is enhanced.

Such as? Like a running game? Defense? I don't know of a QB who would win
a lot of games with a running game and a defense at the bottom of the
league. And I have 50+ years of football to see all the QBs.

And I don't buy this "padding" business. I have seen too much accuracy
out of Orton for that. Defenses aren't left just scratching their heads over
the Broncos' schemes. They are pros against pros. If Orton isn't good, he
does not produce, no matter the system or the scheme. It's that simple.
And he has produced. Big time.

-----

[G_Money]

Orton has thrown 248 of his 429 passes either behind the line of scrimmage or within 10 yards of it. Just how accurate does Tebow need to be to throw 60% of his passes that distance, like Orton does? :huh:

And since he's not facing pressure in Broncos practice, since no one's allowed to even touch him, how would we assess his response to real defenses?

I'm okay with a decision to run with Orton as the starter for the foreseeable future, but that's what it has to be - a decision for this year and next, not a desire to win now. If you want to have Tebow even compete for the job next year, then you need to decide that this year as well and get him in some meaningless games. It would give them meaning for our 2011 season.

~G

[TXBRONC]

Won't know that unless Orton sits on the bench. I don't want to know what Tebow can do in camp or on a practice field. Seems now would be the time to figure that out.

It's a catch-twenty. I've heard people say things like "I need see more from Tebow before I would be comfortable turning the keys to the car over to him." or "Tebow needs more experience before he becomes the starter." In either case I haven't figured out how a guy is suppose to get experience when he doesn't play. What am I missing GEM?

[sanluis]

Well, relying on Orton has proven not to be the answer. And you make solid points about the recent drafts. But Im not assuming the same people will be drafting.

Pats infatuation with New England was/is so stupid. Tom Brady is/was an elite QB. Orton isnt. To assume you can have what NE had without Brady is questionable reasoning. The better model to follow would have been something that doesnt require finding a needle in a haystack (like finding an elite QB with a low round pick). Baltimore would have been a better model to blueprint off of.

First, I think you are forgetting the success Josh had with that QB that went to KC... Mat someone?? So Josh was successful with someone other than Brady. Someone that didn't even play a game in college IIRC!

And Second, New England had and has a very solid D. So does Jay Cutler. (Maybe Denver should have gone after Peppers?? )= more could of should of.

Nothing wrong with your point to build a champion you must have the D. That we are in perfect agreement. :salute:

[topscribe]

Orton has thrown 248 of his 429 passes either behind the line of scrimmage or within 10 yards of it. Just how accurate does Tebow need to be to throw 60% of his passes that distance, like Orton does? :huh:

And since he's not facing pressure in Broncos practice, since no one's allowed to even touch him, how would we assess his response to real defenses?

I'm okay with a decision to run with Orton as the starter for the foreseeable future, but that's what it has to be - a decision for this year and next, not a desire to win now. If you want to have Tebow even compete for the job next year, then you need to decide that this year as well and get him in some meaningless games. It would give them meaning for our 2011 season.

~G

Orton's YPC is close to 8 yards. That is the second longest in the league,
behind Rivers. We're talking averages. If the averages of alllllll the others
are less, that means that large percentages of theirs are also for short
yardage.

On the other hand, Orton is #1 in the league at 40+ yards and near the
top at 30+. But it involves more than just chucking the ball here and there,
and you know that. It involves reading defenses, pocket awareness,
calling blocking signals, orchestrating the offenses etc., etc.

Shanahan once said it takes three years for a QB coming in to fully
assimilate his offensive system. McDaniels' system is just as complex, if not
more.

Now, sitting out here in front of our computer monitors, we really do not
know how good or not good Tebow is going to be on the field. Having seen
him every day, day after day, for nine months now, I'm sure the coaches
have a far better idea of this. And they are the ones who have not allowed
him onto the field up to this point . . .

-----

[turftoad]

No, this thread is about third downs, and third downs only. That should be
very obvious. Neither the OP nor the article mentioned anything else. Just
third downs, and third downs only.
If you and others want to discuss other things about Orton, this board is just
loaded with threads to that effect. This thread is about third downs, and
third downs only.

BTW, did I mention this thread is about third downs?
-----

What??? :confused: :confused:


:D :D

[Jake Klug]

Such as? Like a running game? Defense? I don't know of a QB who would win
a lot of games with a running game and a defense at the bottom of the
league. And I have 50+ years of football to see all the QBs.

Well, a couple of years ago, with Cutler, Denver went 8-8 with an equally bad defense and being down to a 7th string RB. The point is, Orton isnt really enhancing winning by his performence alone. Also, it would be easier to have an elite defense and running game than it would be to find an elite QB with a low round pick. With that in mind, Orton becomes more expendable.



And I don't buy this "padding" business. I have seen too much accuracy
out of Orton for that. Defenses aren't left just scratching their heads over
the Broncos' schemes. They are pros against pros. If Orton isn't good, he
does not produce, no matter the system or the scheme. It's that simple.
And he has produced. Big time.


I dont care if you buy it. I have Orton on my fantasy team. He's been FF gold this year. I picked him up around the 10th round and I often have my FF matchup on while the games are going. Several times it has been the case where Orton starts piling up points as I see the game is out of hand. Its something I pay attention to through having him on my FF team and Im telling you that he pads his stats a lot in garbage time. Its something I pay attention to on a weekly basis.

I mean, how many times can you really think of where Denver won because Orton went off? Kansas City? Thats the only game I can really think of but even in that game, it was one of the few times Denver had the running game going.

Im sorry to break it to you but Orton is just not as good as youre making him out to be. Im OK with how he has performed for the most part but lets not get carried away with Orton.

[topscribe]

Orton's YPC is close to 8 yards. That is the second longest in the league,
behind Rivers. We're talking averages. If the averages of alllllll the others
are less, that means that large percentages of theirs are also for short
yardage.

On the other hand, Orton is #1 in the league at 40+ yards and near the
top at 30+. But it involves more than just chucking the ball here and there,
and you know that. It involves reading defenses, pocket awareness,
calling blocking signals, orchestrating the offenses etc., etc.

Shanahan once said it takes three years for a QB coming in to fully
assimilate his offensive system. McDaniels' system is just as complex, if not
more.

Now, sitting out here in front of our computer monitors, we really do not
know how good or not good Tebow is going to be on the field. Having seen
him every day, day after day, for nine months now, I'm sure the coaches
have a far better idea of this. And they are the ones who have not allowed
him onto the field up to this point . . .

-----

Just getting this post to the other side . . .

-----

[GEM]

It's a catch-twenty. I've heard people say things like "I need see more from Tebow before I would be comfortable turning the keys to the car over to him." or "Tebow needs more experience before he becomes the starter." In either case I haven't figured out how a guy is suppose to get experience when he doesn't play. What am I missing GEM?

I am resigned to the fact that there are more losses than wins to end this season. Let Tebow play. The games are meaningless at this point....well, except to the coach who is trying to save his job...:sigh:

[Jake Klug]

First, I think you are forgetting the success Josh had with that QB that went to KC... Mat someone?? So Josh was successful with someone other than Brady. Someone that didn't even play a game in college IIRC!

And Second, New England had and has a very solid D. So does Jay Cutler. (Maybe Denver should have gone after Peppers?? )= more could of should of.

Nothing wrong with your point to build a champion you must have the D. That we are in perfect agreement. :salute:

I think youre forgetting that Im not assuming Josh will be the head coach. I dont really care about his work with Cassel. Thats water under the bridge. He had a bigger job to do in Denver than being a QB coach and he hasnt done it.

Its time to move on.

[G_Money]

Orton's YPC is close to 8 yards. That is the second longest in the league,
behind Rivers. We're talking averages. If the averages of alllllll the others
are less, that means that large percentages of theirs are also for short
yardage.

On the other hand, Orton is #1 in the league at 40+ yards and near the
top at 30+. But it involves more than just chucking the ball here and there,
and you know that. It involves reading defenses, pocket awareness,
calling blocking signals, orchestrating the offenses etc., etc.

Shanahan once said it takes three years for a QB coming in to fully
assimilate his offensive system. McDaniels' system is just as complex, if not
more.

Now, sitting out here in front of our computer monitors, we really do not
know how good or not good Tebow is going to be on the field. Having seen
him every day, day after day, for nine months now, I'm sure the coaches
have a far better idea of this. And they are the ones who have not allowed
him onto the field up to this point . . .

-----

I'm not saying Orton hasn't been great, just that 60% or so of his passes are little flip jobs that any QB in the league can throw. The offense is designed to get those open. Maybe Tebow can't throw a deep ball, but several beautiful spirals 40 yards downfield in the preseason to hit a receiver in stride would bely that statement.

The idea of the offense is to make good, quick decisions, throw the ball a lot, and don't turn it over. Understanding the offense and reading the defense are big keys to that. Maybe Tebow can do it, maybe he can't. He won't get better at reading defenses by studying ours though, I can tell you that.

And watching guys like Hillis go out the door because "they couldn't succeed here" and then tear it up leaves me dubious about the coaching staff's ability to understand what they see in practice.

If I were Pat Bowlen I would order Josh to play Tebow once we're mathmatically eliminated, just so that he and prospective future coaches could see what they need to see on him. That's just me. He seems perfectly content with the way that Josh is running things, so maybe for him it's not a big deal.

~G

[TXBRONC]

Orton has thrown 248 of his 429 passes either behind the line of scrimmage or within 10 yards of it. Just how accurate does Tebow need to be to throw 60% of his passes that distance, like Orton does? :huh:

And since he's not facing pressure in Broncos practice, since no one's allowed to even touch him, how would we assess his response to real defenses?

I'm okay with a decision to run with Orton as the starter for the foreseeable future, but that's what it has to be - a decision for this year and next, not a desire to win now. If you want to have Tebow even compete for the job next year, then you need to decide that this year as well and get him in some meaningless games. It would give them meaning for our 2011 season.

~G

If may I just looked up the average yard per attempt for both Cutler and Orton they both are sitting at 7.9 yard per attempt and just for laughs and giggles their respective career averages Cutler 7.3 per attempt and Orton 6.6 per attempt.

[sanluis]

I think youre forgetting that Im not assuming Josh will be the head coach. I dont really care about his work with Cassel. Thats water under the bridge. He had a bigger job to do in Denver than being a QB coach and he hasnt done it.

Its time to move on.

What would you do if the new coach, assuming Josh is gone, keeps Orton? Because he is very good. Adds some high impact player like Peppers to the D line , gets doom back and fixes the O-line. Denver is looking pretty good with just few moves and better luck with health.

Sorry , I have to hope Josh stays!!! :shocked::D

[claymore]

What would you do if the new coach, assuming Josh is gone, keeps Orton? Because he is very good. Adds some high impact player like Peppers to the D line , gets doom back and fixes the O-line. Denver is looking pretty good with just few moves and better luck with health.

Sorry , I have to hope Josh stays!!! :shocked::D
This is why we need to play Tebow now. To See if we need "Capt okie doke" (orton).

[chazoe60]

Orton's accuracy is a bit of a mirage actually. I can't even count the times I've seen wide open WRs have to dive to the ground to make a catch. If he hits the receivers in stride more often he would have even more yards. He also overthrows quite often. He's missed wide open WRs in the endzone two weeks in a row now.

Orton's completion % has been aided greatly by some awesome WR play this season. Now, with that said there are times when Orton is deadly accurate but mostly I think he leaves a lot of yards on the field because of slightly off the mark throws.

[topscribe]

Well, a couple of years ago, with Cutler, Denver went 8-8 with an equally bad defense and being down to a 7th string RB. The point is, Orton isnt really enhancing winning by his performence alone. Also, it would be easier to have an elite defense and running game than it would be to find an elite QB with a low round pick. With that in mind, Orton becomes more expendable.

Given, the Broncos had a bad defense in 2008. About the same as this year.


Regarding the running game:

Denver finished 2008 with a 4.8 average yards-per-carry and ended up 18th in yards gained on the ground.

Denver has spent most of this season at #32 and at one time was averaging 1.7 YPC.

The rest of your post was not worthy of a response, IMO . . .

-----

[topscribe]

I think youre forgetting that Im not assuming Josh will be the head coach..

You don't know that, either. Mr. Bowlen has indicated he doesn't even know . . .

-----

[Jake Klug]

You don't know that, either. Mr. Bowlen has indicated he doesn't even know . . .

-----

How does, "Im not assuming..." correspond to your response? What youre saying doesnt even make sense considering what I said.

But, pretty much every forward looking conversation has one foot in "what should happen" and the other in "what will likely happen". Put another way, its not purely predictive. Again, your response makes no sense.

[Jake Klug]

Given, the Broncos had a bad defense in 2008. About the same as this year.


Regarding the running game:

Denver finished 2008 with a 4.8 average yards-per-carry and ended up 18th in yards gained on the ground.

Denver has spent most of this season at #32 and at one time was averaging 1.7 YPC.

The rest of your post was not worthy of a response, IMO . . .

-----

Im not really sure what youre arguing about. Saying that Culter had help in going 8-8 only bolsters my argument. Its true that the running game was a lot better but its also true the passing yards then were more meaningful. They translated into wins more often.

But this isnt even a Cutler vs. Orton vs. Tebow debate. Again, its more about the other parts, namely the defense. Orton has the biggest body of work to suggest he's not "elite".

And, again, it would be easier to have an elite defense and/or running game than it would be to acquire an elite QB given where we pick.

What I think they should do, is fully commit to getting as many quality defenders as they can through the draft and otherwise...even if that means trading Orton. When you rely on multiple players being good, you hedge your bets somewhat. You know not everyone may be a fit but if you get enough good guys, soon enough you have a credible defense.

[topscribe]

Im not really sure what youre arguing about. Saying that Culter had help in going 8-8 only bolsters my argument. Its true that the running game was a lot better but its also true the passing yards then were more meaningful. They translated into wins more often.

But this isnt even a Cutler vs. Orton vs. Tebow debate. Again, its more about the other parts, namely the defense. Orton has the biggest body of work to suggest he's not "elite".

And, again, it would be easier to have an elite defense and/or running game than it would be to acquire an elite QB given where we pick.

And I'm not sure what you're arguing about. I have never engaged in a
Orton/Cutler, Orton/Tebow, Cutler/Tebow, or whatever debate. Ever.

And I have never claimed Orton is "elite," whatever that is.

But the passing yards back then were not considered "meaningful." In fact,
their Red Zone performance was despicable. In further fact, Cutler was
criticized for the same thing: lots of yards, a dearth of points.

But both years accentuate just what you seemed to allude to: Improving
the defense and running game will solve a whole lot of the QB problems.
Especially 3rd down production . . .

-----

[Jake Klug]

And I'm not sure what you're arguing about. I have never engaged in a
Orton/Cutler, Orton/Tebow, Cutler/Tebow, or whatever debate. Ever.

And I have never claimed Orton is "elite," whatever that is.


-----

Thats all you needed to say. The end.

[topscribe]

How does, "Im not assuming..." correspond to your response? What youre saying doesnt even make sense considering what I said.

But, pretty much every forward looking conversation has one foot in "what should happen" and the other in "what will likely happen". Put another way, its not purely predictive. Again, your response makes no sense.

Okay. If I make no sense to you, I will not waste my time further responding to you.

Have a nice day. :coffee:

-----

[BroncoStud]

OK, but why get rid of or blame the best thing you have going? === Orton

He is the only bright spot I see for Denver this year.

Because he isn't really doing anything to win the Broncos games and he might have trade value for a team that is close to competing for the postseason. Denver is so far away on defense that a Super Bowl is a unicorn right now...

Orton is just a system guy, he puts up good numbers but he isn't winning when the game is on the line. If you can get a 3rd or 4th rounder for him then it has to be worth the loss.

[BroncoStud]

It's not important for us to find out. It's important for the coaches. And they
have seen both players every single day through camp, preseason, and now
regular season. I'm sure they have a pretty good feel for when Tebow will or
will not be ready. If he is still a project, then he's still a project. If it is close,
then they might have to put him in to find out. As it stands, it must not be
close . . .

-----

You mean the same coaches that watched Peyton Hillis practice every single day? The ones who went out and got Maroney? The same coach that wanted Matt Cassel over Cutler when just about everyone knew Cutler had far more upside?

It's hard to put much faith in this coaching staff when we see the results on Sundays and the scandals through the week.

[sanluis]

Because he isn't really doing anything to win the Broncos games and he might have trade value for a team that is close to competing for the postseason. Denver is so far away on defense that a Super Bowl is a unicorn right now...

Orton is just a system guy, he puts up good numbers but he isn't winning when the game is on the line. If you can get a 3rd or 4th rounder for him then it has to be worth the loss.

Well, you have to forgive me. I lived through years of shit QB play in SD and nothing sets your franchise back more than a Ryan Leaf , John freeze, type QB. Orton is a hall of fame QB compared to those guys. :lol:

I don't see throwing him out for a 4th rounder?? You would probably get that high of a comp pick for him IMO. Trade Quinn for a forth, trade Timmy Tebow for a 2nd rounder. Keep Orton and his 5000 yard pace. Just my 2 cents.

[sanluis]

You mean the same coaches that watched Peyton Hillis practice every single day? The ones who went out and got Maroney? The same coach that wanted Matt Cassel over Cutler when just about everyone knew Cutler had far more upside?

It's hard to put much faith in this coaching staff when we see the results on Sundays and the scandals through the week.

Playing Devils advocate

Cutler is a Douche bag baby.

Hills is a HGH suspension about to happen and Mat Cassel is in first place.

There are always other ways of seeing things.:D

[BroncoStud]

Well, you have to forgive me. I lived through years of shit QB play in SD and nothing sets your franchise back more than a Ryan Leaf , John freeze, type QB. Orton is a hall of fame QB compared to those guys. :lol:

I don't see throwing him out for a 4th rounder?? You would probably get that high of a comp pick for him IMO. Trade Quinn for a forth, trade Timmy Tebow for a 2nd rounder. Keep Orton and his 5000 yard pace. Just my 2 cents.

I see what you're saying. Orton's numbers look all nice and shiny but let us not forget that this system has helped make Tom Brady a first ballot HoF QB and made Matt Cassel a rich and wanted man. I don't think this offense varies much from the one Orton ran at Purdue, tons of bubbles, quick-picks, etc... The same offense Drew Brees ran.

The difference is clear when you watch Orton perform under pressure. He falls apart and looks completely overwhelmed. The other guys in this sytem play well or actually peak in crunch time.

Orton isn't that sort of talent and he is not a "young" QB. 5 year pro and still doesn't have a win that defines him. I love his accuracy from 15 in, but I really can't stand to watch him try to mount a comeback. At 3-8 and losing 15 of 21, I don't really see how he escapes so much blame for his failures in critical times.

[topscribe]

You mean the same coaches that watched Peyton Hillis practice every single day? The ones who went out and got Maroney? The same coach that wanted Matt Cassel over Cutler when just about everyone knew Cutler had far more upside?

It's hard to put much faith in this coaching staff when we see the results on Sundays and the scandals through the week.

Were Hillis still here, he would still be a backup, probably behind Ball. In
Denver's system, they need RBs who can not only run, but catch, block, and
pick up blitzes, too. Hillis was and is a miserable blocker, which is why even
Larsen beat him out at FB.

And Cassel and Orton have both outplayed Cutler since the trade. Cutler
has begun to come on lately, but both Cassel and Orton are still red hot.

I was not initially happy with either personnel move, but as I have learned
more of the facts, I have developed more understanding toward them.

Nonetheless, they are football people. We are not. So I will continue to
lend more credence to their judgment than I will yours or mine . . .



I see what you're saying. Orton's numbers look all nice and shiny but let us not forget that this system has helped make Tom Brady a first ballot HoF QB and made Matt Cassel a rich and wanted man. I don't think this offense varies much from the one Orton ran at Purdue, tons of bubbles, quick-picks, etc... The same offense Drew Brees ran.

The difference is clear when you watch Orton perform under pressure. He falls apart and looks completely overwhelmed. The other guys in this sytem play well or actually peak in crunch time.

Orton isn't that sort of talent and he is not a "young" QB. 5 year pro and still doesn't have a win that defines him. I love his accuracy from 15 in, but I really can't stand to watch him try to mount a comeback. At 3-8 and losing 15 of 21, I don't really see how he escapes so much blame for his failures in critical times.

I love Orton's accuracy from 15 in, too. And I also love his accuracy beyond
that - everywhere. Few seem to realize that Orton is #1 in the league at
40+ yards and near the top at 30+. The old "can't complete passes further
than 10 yards" garbage is obsolete. You need a new area to attack . . .

And Orton is in only his fourth year, actually on the field. He is a "young"
QB, still developing. Contrary to most other positions on a football team,
QBs tend to reach their prime in their 30s.

-----

[sanluis]

I see what you're saying. Orton's numbers look all nice and shiny but let us not forget that this system has helped make Tom Brady a first ballot HoF QB and made Matt Cassel a rich and wanted man. I don't think this offense varies much from the one Orton ran at Purdue, tons of bubbles, quick-picks, etc... The same offense Drew Brees ran.

The difference is clear when you watch Orton perform under pressure. He falls apart and looks completely overwhelmed. The other guys in this sytem play well or actually peak in crunch time.

Orton isn't that sort of talent and he is not a "young" QB. 5 year pro and still doesn't have a win that defines him. I love his accuracy from 15 in, but I really can't stand to watch him try to mount a comeback. At 3-8 and losing 15 of 21, I don't really see how he escapes so much blame for his failures in critical times.


Not being able to come-back was my knock on Drew Brees when he was in SD. Funny, I think Orton and Drew both came from Purdue IIRC...

Place blame on Orton, that's fine! I would place more blame on the D, the o-line , the running backs....

[Mike]

Place blame on Orton, that's fine! I would place more blame on the D, the o-line , the running backs....

Plenty blame to go around. Defense being primary.

However, having a chance to get your team to a tie or a win when it is in your grasp and then crapping the bed is a big problem at the QB position.

Like I said, I like Orton, just like I liked Plummer. I think he is having a statistically great year and has been one of the best players on the team. Orton isn't the biggest problem on the team...but he isn't the long term solution because he can't get it done in the clutch.

[topscribe]

Not being able to come-back was my knock on Drew Brees when he was in SD. Funny, I think Orton and Drew both came from Purdue IIRC...

Place blame on Orton, that's fine! I would place more blame on the D, the o-line , the running backs....

I think that maybe Orton is a principle target because the whole show has
been a comedy of errors. One thing after another happens, and it just never
seems to be from the same cause.

Take last Sunday, for instance. In the minds of many around here, Orton
seems the goat for the failure of the last offensive series of the game - the
one that would have produced a win, in the case of a TD, or a tie with a FG.

However, going back and reviewing, I saw a few things. (Play by play,
including highlights, can be found here (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010112810/2010/REG12/rams@broncos#tab:analyze/analyze-channels:cat-post-playbyplay).)

The first pass of that series fell incomplete, but we soon found why. Pass
interference was called. Unfortunately, Walton snapped the ball prematurely,
which resulted in offsetting penalties.

Then there was the sack, which some felt Orton hung onto the ball too
long. He did have the ball for 3 seconds, but the replay shows that Long
ran around Harris' block behind Orton, giving Orton the impression that the
pocket was secure, so he was waiting for a receiver to get open. Three
seconds is not a long time for that.

On an ensuing pass play, Graham bricked the ball that had come right into
his hands. (Graham has done this increasingly. They ought to take note.)

The final pass attempt looked terrible - like a dying quail. However, the
replay shows that Chris Long hit Orton's arm, just as Orton was throwing.

In all that final series, Orton had one incompletion that was his own, a pass
down the middle to Royal. All the rest happened to him, not by him.

Meanwhile, people also forget that it was Orton's three TD passes in the
fourth quarter that brought the Broncos back to where they even had a
chance to win the game.

It hasn't always been someone else's fault. There have been a couple
fourth down INTs. But it has not always been Orton's, either. For a QB to
come back, he needs the help of others on his team. I don't care if his
name is Orton, Rivers, Manning, or Elway . . .

-----

[topscribe]

Excerpt of an article published yesterday (Nov. 30) on the NFL.com site (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81c8b0bc/article/littleknown-players-producing-alltime-statistical-seasons?module=HP_cp2):



Orton has defied critics who feel he is a serviceable stopgap and not much
else. He has shown toughness, good footwork moving around the pocket,
while throwing one of the better deep balls in the game. If he keeps his (http://www.nfl.com/stats/milestone)
current pace up (http://www.nfl.com/stats/milestone), he'll finish with 4,902 yards and 29 touchdowns.

Entire article can be read here: http://tinyurl.com/2d5ejn7

Included in the article, BTW, is an interesting piece on Brandon Lloyd.

-----

[BroncoStud]

Were Hillis still here, he would still be a backup, probably behind Ball. In
Denver's system, they need RBs who can not only run, but catch, block, and
pick up blitzes, too. Hillis was and is a miserable blocker, which is why even
Larsen beat him out at FB.

And Cassel and Orton have both outplayed Cutler since the trade. Cutler
has begun to come on lately, but both Cassel and Orton are still red hot.

I was not initially happy with either personnel move, but as I have learned
more of the facts, I have developed more understanding toward them.

Nonetheless, they are football people. We are not. So I will continue to
lend more credence to their judgment than I will yours or mine . . .




I love Orton's accuracy from 15 in, too. And I also love his accuracy beyond
that - everywhere. Few seem to realize that Orton is #1 in the league at
40+ yards and near the top at 30+. The old "can't complete passes further
than 10 yards" garbage is obsolete. You need a new area to attack . . .

And Orton is in only his fourth year, actually on the field. He is a "young"
QB, still developing. Contrary to most other positions on a football team,
QBs tend to reach their prime in their 30s.

-----

Yeah, I agree about the Hillis issue, he WOULD be a backup here, which is insanity and just goes to show how feeble McDaniels tends to be at personnel decisions. Hillis can catch and run better than any RB on this roster and he can block just as well as anyone of them. He is a football player, he can do it all. At Arkansas when McFadden and Jones were getting all the press Hillis was the one that kept the chains moving and made the tough yards.

As far as Orton goes, I don't doubt he is still in somewhat of a developmental phase. Still, 5 years in the NFL and a lot of starts he hasn't shown that "special" or "it" factor one time. He has a good grasp of this offense and knows how to protect the football, but he just isn't a guy that can carry a team, he also lacks a serious leadership quality that often defins a QB.

I'm happy with his play when things are going good but I dread the inevitable failure when he has to make the play...

Sam Bradford showed us Sunday what having "it" is. He's started 11 games in his rookie season and has his team poised for the playoffs and winning their division. Bradford has NO WRs to throw to, has a shaky offensive line, and has a suspect defense, yet he has been magnificent.

I think a good comparison (at least to me) is Marc Bugler and Kyle Orton. Both play/ed in very friendly systems and put up great fantasy football numbers but lack sound leadership and the "it" factor. They're both just limited in their upside based on physical merits and intangibles. Both can excel in the right system with the right supporting cast.

[BroncoStud]

Not being able to come-back was my knock on Drew Brees when he was in SD. Funny, I think Orton and Drew both came from Purdue IIRC...

Place blame on Orton, that's fine! I would place more blame on the D, the o-line , the running backs....

I remember watching Brees play on Sunday Night Football and thinking he was the worst starting QB I ever watched play a game. I don't remember who they were playing but he was simply awful.

It seemed to "click" for him the next season and the rest is history. Think of the talent the Chargers had at one time... Brees/Rivers/Tomlinson/Turner/Gates... :shocked:

[topscribe]

Yeah, I agree about the Hillis issue, he WOULD be a backup here, which is insanity and just goes to show how feeble McDaniels tends to be at personnel decisions. Hillis can catch and run better than any RB on this roster and he can block just as well as anyone of them. He is a football player, he can do it all. At Arkansas when McFadden and Jones were getting all the press Hillis was the one that kept the chains moving and made the tough yards.

As far as Orton goes, I don't doubt he is still in somewhat of a developmental phase. Still, 5 years in the NFL and a lot of starts he hasn't shown that "special" or "it" factor one time. He has a good grasp of this offense and knows how to protect the football, but he just isn't a guy that can carry a team, he also lacks a serious leadership quality that often defins a QB.

I'm happy with his play when things are going good but I dread the inevitable failure when he has to make the play...

Sam Bradford showed us Sunday what having "it" is. He's started 11 games in his rookie season and has his team poised for the playoffs and winning their division. Bradford has NO WRs to throw to, has a shaky offensive line, and has a suspect defense, yet he has been magnificent.

I think a good comparison (at least to me) is Marc Bugler and Kyle Orton. Both play/ed in very friendly systems and put up great fantasy football numbers but lack sound leadership and the "it" factor. They're both just limited in their upside based on physical merits and intangibles. Both can excel in the right system with the right supporting cast.

Of course, I don't agree with everything here. But I view it as a good
attempt at balance, which is why I saluted it.

Sorry I can't continue in the discussion, but I'm buried in a project I can't
get out of. So I'm going to have to log off BF altogether to do away with
the temptation this board presents.

Enjoy your day! http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thdrink.gif

-----

[BroncoStud]

Of course, I don't agree with everything here. But I view it as a good
attempt at balance, which is why I saluted it.

Sorry I can't continue in the discussion, but I'm buried in a project I can't
get out of. So I'm going to have to log off BF altogether to do away with
the temptation this board presents.

Enjoy your day! http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thdrink.gif

-----

Haha, I know the feeling. I have so much work to do and all I want to do is talk football. Take it easy. :salute:

[I Eat Staples]

Trade Quinn for a forth, trade Timmy Tebow for a 2nd rounder. Keep Orton and his 5000 yard pace. Just my 2 cents.

We won't get picks that high for those players, but otherwise you're spot on.

[BroncoStud]

We won't get picks that high for those players, but otherwise you're spot on.

Orton won't throw for 5,000 yards in a more conventional NFL offense under a new coach. I highly doubt whoever replaces McDaniels is going to run the High School Spread.

In a traditional running/ball-control offense in Chicago Orton struggled mightily. He doesn't have the wheels or arm to drop back conventionally and decimate defenses.

Throwing out of shotgun and playaction is what has saved him this season.

[topscribe]

Orton won't throw for 5,000 yards in a more conventional NFL offense under a new coach. I highly doubt whoever replaces McDaniels is going to run the High School Spread.

In a traditional running/ball-control offense in Chicago Orton struggled mightily. He doesn't have the wheels or arm to drop back conventionally and decimate defenses.

Throwing out of shotgun and playaction is what has saved him this season.

I don't get where you think Orton doesn't have the arm. He is #1 in the
league so far this year in 40+ yards. I have read from some football experts
where he is one of the better deep passers in the league this year. As a high
school senior, Orton threw the ball 74 yards in a QB contest, defeating Jon
Kitna, who was already in the pros, on that day.

In the NE game last year, his "hail Mary" pass at the end of the first half
went 65 yards in the air. Several of his 40+ yard passes this year have gone
for more than 50 yards in the air. He has plenty of arm.

Your comment about Orton's "wheels" in the "traditional" offense of Chicago
indicates you lack some knowledge about Orton's history. Orton played much
of the 2008 season in a high ankle sprain, which affected both his mobility
- and his passing ability, BTW.

Again, you are bringing up obsolete and thoroughly debunked arguments
regarding Orton.

BTW, the spread offense is far more than a "high school" offense. It can be
quite sophisticated and has quite a history behind it. For starters, you can
go here (http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/the-elways-and-the-spread-part-1) to begin reading up on it . . .

-----

[Jake Klug]

I don't get where you think Orton doesn't have the arm. He is #1 in the
league so far this year in 40+ yards. I have read from some football experts
where he is one of the better deep passers in the league this year. As a high
school senior, Orton threw the ball 74 yards in a QB contest, defeating Jon
Kitna, who was already in the pros, on that day.

In the NE game last year, his "hail Mary" pass at the end of the first half
went 65 yards in the air. Several of his 40+ yard passes this year have gone
for more than 50 yards in the air. He has plenty of arm.

Your comment about Orton's "wheels" in the "traditional" offense of Chicago
indicates you lack some knowledge about Orton's history. Orton played much
of the 2008 season in a high ankle sprain, which affected both his mobility
- and his passing ability, BTW.

Again, you are bringing up obsolete and thoroughly debunked arguments
regarding Orton.

BTW, the spread offense is far more than a "high school" offense. It can be
quite sophisticated and has quite a history behind it. For starters, you can
go here (http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/the-elways-and-the-spread-part-1) to begin reading up on it . . .

-----

cool story, bro

[BroncoStud]

I don't get where you think Orton doesn't have the arm. He is #1 in the
league so far this year in 40+ yards. I have read from some football experts
where he is one of the better deep passers in the league this year. As a high
school senior, Orton threw the ball 74 yards in a QB contest, defeating Jon
Kitna, who was already in the pros, on that day.

In the NE game last year, his "hail Mary" pass at the end of the first half
went 65 yards in the air. Several of his 40+ yard passes this year have gone
for more than 50 yards in the air. He has plenty of arm.

Your comment about Orton's "wheels" in the "traditional" offense of Chicago
indicates you lack some knowledge about Orton's history. Orton played much
of the 2008 season in a high ankle sprain, which affected both his mobility
- and his passing ability, BTW.

Again, you are bringing up obsolete and thoroughly debunked arguments
regarding Orton.

BTW, the spread offense is far more than a "high school" offense. It can be
quite sophisticated and has quite a history behind it. For starters, you can
go here (http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/the-elways-and-the-spread-part-1) to begin reading up on it . . .

-----

I know that the spread offense has a good and long history, it's a great equalizer of talent in the college ranks and it allows non-traditional QBs to excel in the system. Denver's version of the spread is Harry High School. All bubble screens and quick-picks.

Orton is hitting wide open WRs (Brandon Lloyd) on these deep balls, EVERY NFL QB can throw a football 50 yards, most 60. That isn't saying anything.

John Kitna has never been known for having a very good arm. In fact, the same things were said about him that are said about Orton... Tough player, smart player, doesn't suck, but is limited on his upside, hence he has been a journeyman.

As far as the high ankle sprain goes, more of the excuses. I'm not saying Orton sucks, quite the contrary, he does a great job with his limited athleticism and he isn't the reason the Denver Broncos suck.

But if you are implying that he has the athleticism or arm of a Jay Cutler, Peyton Manning, Tony Romo, Mike Vick, etc, etc, you are WAY off. So you READ that he threw a ball deep one time to beat Kitna in a contest - and? Kyle Boller threw a ball 65 yards on one knee through the uprights at a Cal Pro Day and had only an average arm for NFL standards.

Orton is smart, accurate (within 15 yards), very tough, and protects the football, those are very good aspects to his game. What he lacks is leadership, athleticism, the arm to throw a 25 yard strike with much velocity, and the ability to perform well in pressure situations.

I haven't studied the life and history of Kyle Orton, I watched him at Purdue, where he essentially almost lost his job due to an injury and performance, I watched him in Chicago struggle to convert and score like he does now, and he had a very good running attack and an opportunistic defense then. I don't really want to study every aspect of Kyle Orton, I've watched enough of him since his days at Purdue to know he isn't the future of the Denver Broncos now was he ever intended to be.

I'm sure I would like to go out and drink some Jack Daniels with Kyle and have some fun, but it is my opinion that he isn't a franchise QB, he simply lacks the intangibles and athleticism.

[topscribe]

I know that the spread offense has a good and long history, it's a great equalizer of talent in the college ranks and it allows non-traditional QBs to excel in the system. Denver's version of the spread is Harry High School. All bubble screens and quick-picks.

Orton is hitting wide open WRs (Brandon Lloyd) on these deep balls, EVERY NFL QB can throw a football 50 yards, most 60. That isn't saying anything.

You haven't been paying attention. Many of those deep balls have been
pinpoint throws into tight coverage. I've been watching the games, too.



John Kitna has never been known for having a very good arm. In fact, the same things were said about him that are said about Orton... Tough player, smart player, doesn't suck, but is limited on his upside, hence he has been a journeyman.74 yards is 74 yards. It doesn't matter if it was against my mother. Just
for comparison, BTW, Manning threw the ball 68 yards, Brady 67, and
Plummer 66 in the 2002 QB Challenge.



As far as the high ankle sprain goes, more of the excuses. I'm not saying Orton sucks, quite the contrary, he does a great job with his limited athleticism and he isn't the reason the Denver Broncos suck.You can draw the "excuse" card if you want. But maybe that is because
you have never played with an injury. Try getting a high (not a normal,
but a high) ankle sprain and then see if you have your usual mobility. See
if you can throw a ball as hard, as far, and as accurate as normal. Than
come back to me with the "excuse" card.



But if you are implying that he has the athleticism or arm of a Jay Cutler, Peyton Manning, Tony Romo, Mike Vick, etc, etc, you are WAY off. So you READ that he threw a ball deep one time to beat Kitna in a contest - and? Kyle Boller threw a ball 65 yards on one knee through the uprights at a Cal Pro Day and had only an average arm for NFL standards.Of course, Orton doesn't have Cutler's or Vick's athleticism. I don't know
where in my writings you possibly could have picked that up. Would you let
me know where you saw that? - Because if I said that, I recant.

But Orton is more mobile than Peyton Manning. I'll just attribute your
inclusion of Manning's name to an oversight.

And if you are going to dwell solely on the 74-yard throw, then you are
glossing over several other examples I provided - and I did not provide
them all. For instance, in the spread offense, a QB's success depends on
his ability to throw deep outs. The deep out is the throw probably most
dependent on velocity. Orton has excelled in deep outs this year. (He
didn't quite so much last year because of *ahem* two (2) high ankle
sprains at the same time - one on each leg.)



Orton is smart, accurate (within 15 yards), very tough, and protects the football, those are very good aspects to his game. What he lacks is leadership, athleticism, the arm to throw a 25 yard strike with much velocity, and the ability to perform well in pressure situations.Again, you haven't paid attention. Nor have you considered the mechanics
of a QB's pass. One reason Cutler, for instance, is intercepted so much is
that he has not learned the art of putting an arch in his passes.

The pass is much like shooting a basketball: Putting more of an arch into it
increases the accuracy and widens the window (hoop) through which the
ball can go. Moreover, the QB can drop the football at an angle that is
more difficult for the defender to get to.

When Orton first came to the pros, he was regarded as a strong-armed QB,
and that he was. He was told he was throwing the ball too hard. The arch
he puts into his longer passes were cultivated. Lloyd put it succinctly: He
said Tebow throws the ball harder, but Orton throws it more accurately.



I haven't studied the life and history of Kyle Orton, I watched him at Purdue, where he essentially almost lost his job due to an injury and performance, I watched him in Chicago struggle to convert and score like he does now, and he had a very good running attack and an opportunistic defense then. I don't really want to study every aspect of Kyle Orton, I've watched enough of him since his days at Purdue to know he isn't the future of the Denver Broncos now was he ever intended to be.I'm most concerned as to what Orton has done after his rookie year.
Nearly every QB - even the superstars - have stunk up the joint in their
rookie years. So that doesn't count in my book. Neither does college.
College is college, and the NFL is the NFL. Two different worlds. Just ask
Tim Couch, Steve Spurrier, Ryan Leaf . . . oh yes, and Tom Brady.

The next year after that was 2008 (except for three games in 2007). Orton
did not have a particularly good running game that year, which averaged
3.9 YPC. He also did not have a good defense: The Bears' passing defense
ranked #30 that year. So Orton did not have the benefit of a very good
running game or defense.



I'm sure I would like to go out and drink some Jack Daniels with Kyle and have some fun, but it is my opinion that he isn't a franchise QB, he simply lacks the intangibles and athleticism.I have no desire to knock around with Orton. I don't think he and I have
much in common in that area. But stand the opposite of you: I believe he
does have what it takes to be a franchise QB. I don't know about "elite,"
whatever that is, or the "it" factor, whatever that is. But he has the arm,
accuracy, pocket awareness, leadership, enough mobility, and certainly
the smarts to make it, IMO. And, like it or not, he is playing at a level that
rivals the "elites" this year . . .


P.S. This has been enjoyable. It's fun knocking heads in a friendly debate.
Thanks for that. But I really do have to go now. I am thoroughly trashing
my work day. :tsk:

-----

[BroncoStud]

You haven't been paying attention. Many of those deep balls have been
pinpoint throws into tight coverage. I've been watching the games, too.


74 yards is 74 yards. It doesn't matter if it was against my mother. Just
for comparison, BTW, Manning threw the ball 68 yards, Brady 67, and
Plummer 66 in the 2002 QB Challenge.


You can draw the "excuse" card if you want. But maybe that is because
you have never played with an injury. Try getting a high (not a normal,
but a high) ankle sprain and then see if you have your usual mobility. See
if you can throw a ball as hard, as far, and as accurate as normal. Than
come back to me with the "excuse" card.


Of course, Orton doesn't have Cutler's or Vick's athleticism. I don't know
where in my writings you possibly could have picked that up. Would you let
me know where you saw that? - Because if I said that, I recant.

But Orton is more mobile than Peyton Manning. I'll just attribute your
inclusion of Manning's name to an oversight.

And if you are going to dwell solely on the 74-yard throw, then you are
glossing over several other examples I provided - and I did not provide
them all. For instance, in the spread offense, a QB's success depends on
his ability to throw deep outs. The deep out is the throw probably most
dependent on velocity. Orton has excelled in deep outs this year. (He
didn't quite so much last year because of *ahem* two (2) high ankle
sprains at the same time - one on each leg.)


Again, you haven't paid attention. Nor have you considered the mechanics
of a QB's pass. One reason Cutler, for instance, is intercepted so much is
that he has not learned the art of putting an arch in his passes.

The pass is much like shooting a basketball: Putting more of an arch into it
increases the accuracy and widens the window (hoop) through which the
ball can go. Moreover, the QB can drop the football at an angle that is
more difficult for the defender to get to.

When Orton first came to the pros, he was regarded as a strong-armed QB,
and that he was. He was told he was throwing the ball too hard. The arch
he puts into his longer passes were cultivated. Lloyd put it succinctly: He
said Tebow throws the ball harder, but Orton throws it more accurately.


I'm most concerned as to what Orton has done after his rookie year.
Nearly every QB - even the superstars - have stunk up the joint in their
rookie years. So that doesn't count in my book. Neither does college.
College is college, and the NFL is the NFL. Two different worlds. Just ask
Tim Couch, Steve Spurrier, Ryan Leaf . . . oh yes, and Tom Brady.

The next year after that was 2008 (except for three games in 2007). Orton
did not have a particularly good running game that year, which averaged
3.9 YPC. He also did not have a good defense: The Bears' passing defense
ranked #30 that year. So Orton did not have the benefit of a very good
running game or defense.


I have no desire to knock around with Orton. I don't think he and I have
much in common in that area. But stand the opposite of you: I believe he
does have what it takes to be a franchise QB. I don't know about "elite,"
whatever that is, or the "it" factor, whatever that is. But he has the arm,
accuracy, pocket awareness, leadership, enough mobility, and certainly
the smarts to make it, IMO. And, like it or not, he is playing at a level that
rivals the "elites" this year . . .


P.S. This has been enjoyable. It's fun knocking heads in a friendly debate.
Thanks for that. But I really do have to go now. I am thoroughly trashing
my work day. :tsk:

-----

Yeah always good debate. I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one. I give Orton credit for what he's done, he's having a great statistical season. I don't see the franchise QB qualities you do but we'll see what happens. I will be suprised if he or McDaniels are here next year to be honest. I think Orton would be a great fit for Minnesota or a team like that who isn't very far away.