What happened to Gruden in Tampa

[gobroncsnv]

Maybe this is a better title for the thread then... so trying again...

Please take this as completely face value... I have no agenda here.

A lot of folks are trying to get a campaign going for Gruden to be the next coach... Again, just a question... For the life of me, I can't figure why he left Tampa so soon. What happened there?
FWIW, I like the guy, think he's a pretty good coach, has a lot of good insights, and has enough out of several good coaching trees to do well... Just not remembering at all why he left the Bucs, and seemingly not long after he got them a SB ring.
Maybe this ain't a "Broncos Talk" thread, so mods, feel free to move, but I wanted to get some traffic on this to see what the deal was.
Thanks all...

[nevcraw]

Maybe this is a better title for the thread then... so trying again...

Please take this as completely face value... I have no agenda here.

A lot of folks are trying to get a campaign going for Gruden to be the next coach... Again, just a question... For the life of me, I can't figure why he left Tampa so soon. What happened there?
FWIW, I like the guy, think he's a pretty good coach, has a lot of good insights, and has enough out of several good coaching trees to do well... Just not remembering at all why he left the Bucs, and seemingly not long after he got them a SB ring.
Maybe this ain't a "Broncos Talk" thread, so mods, feel free to move, but I wanted to get some traffic on this to see what the deal was.
Thanks all...

1. he stopped winning
2. he became obsessed with collecting bad QB's.
3. his looks became a distraction

[gobroncsnv]

Interesting... as much as we might have hated it, he did build a pretty decent Raiders squad. Pretty obvious though that he inherited Dungy's great work in Tampa. But to have done for Oakland what he was able to do all the while fighting Wierd Al... that was an impressive body of work.
But was he fighting the Glazers, or what, that made him part ways in Tampa? Just a curiously short (seemingly) tenure there. Don't at all remember why.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Personally, I think he is/was overrated. He never put a team together. He inherited Dungy's talent. Even in Oakland, it was an older bunch of vets. He has nice offensive schemes, but I feel he lacks the ability to evaluate talent. JMHO.

[Northman]

Maybe this will help.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3839188

[Northman]

Personally, I think he is/was overrated. He never put a team together. He inherited Dungy's talent. Even in Oakland, it was an older bunch of vets. He has nice offensive schemes, but I feel he lacks the ability to evaluate talent. JMHO.

McDaniels isnt any better and at the very least Gruden can use talent that is here without trading it away.

[broncobryce]

He didn't win a playoff game in his last 6 or 7 seasons there.

[gobroncsnv]

Was he really there that long? He was the Raiders coach in like 2003 (02?), and has been out of coaching for 3 years anyway... Wow, seems like it was longer than that.

North, thanks for the article. Brings some interesting info into the discussion.

Was Kiffen the coordinator there when Chucky was the coach? Would have been smart to have kept him. Pretty sure he was coach there when Lynch came west to Denver.
As far as Oakland goes, the Raiders sucked even worse than we do now before he got there. I think he DID put that team together, and at the time, were the best of the AFC west. Lost to NE on the tuck rule in the AFCG. Then Gruden left, Callahan took Gruden's Raiders to the SB to play Dungy's Bucs (but poor Tony never could get them to the big dance). Gruden has to have come closest to having been the coach of both teams in the same super bowl. Not many could say that.
Doing my darndest to just keep this about Gruden here.

[Northman]

Was he really there that long? He was the Raiders coach in like 2003, and has been out of coaching for 3 years anyway...
Was Kiffen the coordinator there when Chucky was the coach? Would have been smart to have kept him. Pretty sure he was coach there when Lynch came west to Denver.
As far as Oakland goes, the Raiders sucked even worse than we do now before he got there. I think he DID put that team together, and at the time, were the best of the AFC west. Lost to NE on the tuck rule in the AFCG. Then Gruden left, Callahan took Gruden's Raiders to the SB to play Dungy's Bucs (but poor Tony never could get them to the big dance). Gruden has to have come closest to having been the coach of both teams in the same super bowl. Not many could say that.
Doing my darndest to just keep this about Gruden here.


He did put that team together and the reason Al got rid of him is because he wasnt a YES man and new what he was doing and Al didnt like that. A lot of people want to give credit to Dungy for the work in Tampa and some of that is correct but Dungy was there a while and couldnt get to the big dance and that is why he was let go. Had Gruden stayed in Oakland he would of easily taken them to the SB that same year. Callahan just got extremely lucky to fall in that situation.

[Bosco]

The general feeling among the populace and apparently in the organization is that despite his initial success, he was simply able to put Dungy's team over the top. Once that core started declining and departing that he was unable to properly repair the issues.

In short, he was like Mike Shanahan-lite with a far less patient owner. If there is one coach who I think could be very good with a powerful GM, it would be Gruden.

[silkamilkamonico]

Gruden wasn't given a chance to succeed in TB.

The Buccaneers were the lowest spending team in the NFL since 2004, the same time they acquired Manchester United. Their commitment from allocating funds to the Bucs transferred to Man U, and Gruden was basically cut off from spending money on free agents so the Glazers could prioritize their precious soccer team. In 2009, when Morris was hired, the organization all of a sudden decides to invest in free agnecy, after years of complaints from the fanbase and local media for accusing them of penny pinching. But hey, when your biggest aquisition in the 4 years span is Center John Wade who wasn't even given any guaranteed bonuses, you'd be complaining too.

When Gruden was fired, TB was around the top third in franchise value, yet was $30 million under the salary cap. When he was "traded", the organization was stripped of the 2 first and second round picks (or whatever), and in the beginning of salary cap hell with old backloaded talent such as Sapp/Lynch/Brooks/Barber/etc.... Kind of ironic that when they retired/lost their edge, the Glazers didn't even bother giving Gruden a chance to replace them via free agency, and no quality draft picks for 2 years. SO given the garbage players he had to work with on offense, he now had garbage players on defense too.

When Gruden revived Antonio Bryant's career, the organization refused to give him more than a 1 year deal.

Gruden was also "forced" to work with Chris Simms who he openly detested and was against drafting.

Also, let's not forget that he was fired after sitting pretty for the playoffs, but then proceeded to lose his final 4 games when Monte Kiffin "checked out" to coach Tennessee for his shady son Lane Kiffin, and TB's heralded defense average over 30 ppg in those 4 losses.

Gruden wasn't even given a chance to succeed, that's a fact.

[gobroncsnv]

Yeah, I KNEW he wasn't given much of a chance in Oakland, because he wasn't winning Al's way. The comparison to him and Shanny sure isn't lost on me for their Oakland tenure, except Shanny was NEVER allowed any traction there. Being out here in Raider territory, many of the folks that are fans of the silver and black speak in hushed tones about Chucky.
And I think for good reason... Only reason he left Oakland is because it's not "just win, baby"... It's "just win MY way, baby".
Appreciate the insights on his Tampa years, I just didn't follow them at all.

[CHARLIEADAMSFAN]

Yeah, I KNEW he wasn't given much of a chance in Oakland, because he wasn't winning Al's way. The comparison to him and Shanny sure isn't lost on me for their Oakland tenure, except Shanny was NEVER allowed any traction there. Being out here in Raider territory, many of the folks that are fans of the silver and black speak in hushed tones about Chucky.
And I think for good reason... Only reason he left Oakland is because it's not "just win, baby"... It's "just win MY way, baby".
Appreciate the insights on his Tampa years, I just didn't follow them at all.

Oakland also traded him and got Warren Sapp and some draft picks back

[Dzone]

this has been a good thread. Thanks. Having Gruden take over this team would be a dream come true. Given the fact that Mcd will be here for a thrid year, hiring Gruden will prob not happen, unfortunately

[hotcarl]

i, too, have never heard of, nor know to use google

[Dreadnought]

i, too, have never heard of, nor know to use google

Hotcarl, your name has been mentioned here and there for our next defensive coordinator. Any interest? What scheme would you install?

[Jake Klug]

Maybe this is a better title for the thread then... so trying again...

Please take this as completely face value... I have no agenda here.

A lot of folks are trying to get a campaign going for Gruden to be the next coach... Again, just a question... For the life of me, I can't figure why he left Tampa so soon. What happened there?
FWIW, I like the guy, think he's a pretty good coach, has a lot of good insights, and has enough out of several good coaching trees to do well... Just not remembering at all why he left the Bucs, and seemingly not long after he got them a SB ring.
Maybe this ain't a "Broncos Talk" thread, so mods, feel free to move, but I wanted to get some traffic on this to see what the deal was.
Thanks all...

He inherited a great defense and he propped up his offense enough for them to win a Super Bowl. But then that defense got old and his GM hit a cold streak so the great players he was losing, werent being replaced. Gruden worked under a GM. After the defense got old and lost parts, Gruden had a hard time finding the quality QB play necessary to win consistently.

[Devilspawn]

Oakland also traded him and got Warren Sapp and some draft picks back
Sapp came via free agency a couple years later. The Raiders received 4 draft picks and $8,000,000 in the Gruden trade.

[Devilspawn]

Yeah, I KNEW he wasn't given much of a chance in Oakland, because he wasn't winning Al's way. The comparison to him and Shanny sure isn't lost on me for their Oakland tenure, except Shanny was NEVER allowed any traction there. Being out here in Raider territory, many of the folks that are fans of the silver and black speak in hushed tones about Chucky.
And I think for good reason... Only reason he left Oakland is because it's not "just win, baby"... It's "just win MY way, baby".
Appreciate the insights on his Tampa years, I just didn't follow them at all.
Shanahan was fired primarily because he wanted to get rid of Art Shell. The Raiders actually improved when Shell took over. At that time, given Shanahan's personality, I don't think he would've succeeded. Shell shaped them up. But who knows if that ZBS would've worked with Hall of Famer Marcus Allen and Hall of Awesomeness Bo Jackson. :shocked:

What no one remembers or probably knew about Gruden is that he would've been fired in 2000 if he didn't make the playoffs. He went 8-8 his first two years and Davis said he liked the improvement but the next year (2000) was his last chance to make the playoffs. Gruden's contract was going to run out after the 2002 season, and Davis didn't want to get into a contract negotiation he would've eventually lost. That along with abandoning the long ball sealed the deal. The Yes Man thing wouldn't have come into play if Gruden won the SB. I think his fortunes were changed when Siragusa sat on Gannon because if we win that game, we would've easily beat the Giants in the SB.

[Northman]

Shanahan was fired primarily because he wanted to get rid of Art Shell. The Raiders actually improved when Shell took over. At that time, given Shanahan's personality, I don't think he would've succeeded. Shell shaped them up. But who knows if that ZBS would've worked with Hall of Famer Marcus Allen and Hall of Awesomeness Bo Jackson. :shocked:

What no one remembers or probably knew about Gruden is that he would've been fired in 2000 if he didn't make the playoffs. He went 8-8 his first two years and Davis said he liked the improvement but the next year (2000) was his last chance to make the playoffs. Gruden's contract was going to run out after the 2002 season, and Davis didn't want to get into a contract negotiation he would've eventually lost. That along with abandoning the long ball sealed the deal. The Yes Man thing wouldn't have come into play if Gruden won the SB. I think his fortunes were changed when Siragusa sat on Gannon because if we win that game, we would've easily beat the Giants in the SB.


:lol:

The Siragusa flop, i remember that like yesterday. So funny. And also Shannon going like 80 yds for a TD didnt help. That year once the Ravens got any kind of lead it was over for the opposition.

[Cugel]

The general feeling among the populace and apparently in the organization is that despite his initial success, he was simply able to put Dungy's team over the top. Once that core started declining and departing that he was unable to properly repair the issues.

In short, he was like Mike Shanahan-lite with a far less patient owner. If there is one coach who I think could be very good with a powerful GM, it would be Gruden.

This is exactly my feeling too. If Gruden had a FIRST rate, really TOP GM with total power over player personnel decisions instead of a guy like Allen in Tampa, (or Ted Sundquist or Brian Xanders here), then I'd like to see what he could do.

The problem is Pat Bowlen. He got the idea from Shanahan that having ONE man responsible for everything is the way to go.

Everybody could see that Shanahan the GM got Shanahan the coach fired. But, Bowlen (after initially making sensible statements) essentially RECREATED the Shanahan regime with Josh McDaniels.

And he STILL thinks it was "the right call." He doesn't think he screwed up by giving McDaniels power over everything and getting rid of the Goodmans who actually knew something about drafting (because reasonably enough they wanted to have the key say on draft day)!

Brian Xanders is a cipher. A numbers guy who handles the financial end of things.

But, you'll notice that McDaniels isn't really getting totally outcoached on the field, his team simply sucks. His players aren't as talented as the teams he's facing and over 4 quarters it's showing up. He's suffered some key injuries and the depth on the Broncos simply isn't good enough to compensate.

There's damn few backups who are adequate to fill in.

That's because of bad drafting, and worse trades.

The dreary list:

Cutler, Sheffler, Marshall, Hillis, Torain, all having success with other teams. The ZBS, coaches like Rick Dennison and Mike Nolan. It just goes on and on. :coffee:

McDaniels inherited a team with some serious weaknesses on defense but a ton of good young talented players on offense who should have been coached and nurtured rather than shown the door.

Two years later you can look up from the smoking crater and see about the only Shanahan starters he's kept have been Ryan Clady, DJ and Champ. Virtually everybody else he's brought in (except Brian Dawkins and Brandon Lloyd) has been a total failure.

And it's better to pass by the endless draft day blunders in silence. When I think we could have Hillis at RB and Brian Orakpo at LB (as well as Colt McCoy instead of Tebow) it makes me upset. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

[I Eat Staples]

3. his looks became a distraction

lolwut? Maybe to Chris Simms.

But seriously, I don't like Gruden and I don't think he's a good coach, he just inherited a superbowl and then drove that team into the ground. He's still better than McDaniels of course, but I hope we get better than Gruden.

[Cugel]

:lol:

The Siragusa flop, i remember that like yesterday. So funny. And also Shannon going like 80 yds for a TD didnt help. That year once the Ravens got any kind of lead it was over for the opposition.
That was one of my favorite plays in NFL history. Tony doing that belly flop on Rich Gannon's shoulder. :laugh: :laugh:

That and the tuck-rule play -- two of my all-time favorites! (I hate the Raiders and want them to fail -- don't expect me to be nice about it).

[G_Money]

Gruden couldn't find a capable QB, and both his GMs weren't the greatest. I wish I knew exactly how much input he had with the GM. When he brought Allen over from the Raiders I assume it was because Allen and he agreed on personnel more than he agreed with McKay. McKay put together the SB team but was destroying the team with salary cap hell.

I don't know how much blame to apportion to Gruden for his inability to locate a QB and get his team restocked after the SB, but whenever he's HAD a real QB he's been a very good offensive head coach with good assistant coaches. Monte Kiffin basically threw the end of Gruden's tenure because he wanted to go coach with his son Lane at Tennessee, and may have cost Jon his job.

They win a couple of those games and make the playoffs and I don't think he gets fired.

Can he hire a defensive coordinator? Monte was there when Gruden got to Tampa, so he doesn't get any points for that. He had Bresnahan and Shaw in Oakland. Bresnahan is in the UFL right now, but how did Shaw do starting the D and how did Bresnahan carry it on?

Defensive rankings:

1997 (year before Shaw and Gruden got there): 28th in points, 30th in yards (seems familiar...)
1998: 20th in points, 5th in yards (Shaw)
1999: 16th in points, 10th in yards (Shaw)
2000: 9th in points, 17th in yards (Bresnahan)
2001: 19th in points, 18th in yards (Bresnahan)

*shrugs* Brez was promoted from within, but I have no idea how much control of the staff Gruden had or what his options were. Working for Davis is always an adventure.

I don't think either DC is stellar, but Gruden's offense was a top 5-ish offense the last 3 years he was there. He's a comparable offensive mind to McDaniels who also likes to RUN the ball (3rd in rushing yards in 99, first in 2000) with his west coast offense.

His Tampa teams though were middle-of-the-pack on offense at best. Now he didn't HAVE a lot on offense there (thanks McKay) for much of his tenure, but they got worse at the end, not better.

Gruden may like to run it, but his system is useless without a good QB. If he can get a competent DC we might make some noise with him as a coach, but we need a GOOD personnel man to complement him.

The answer can't just be Gruden, because he's not the sort of coach to make mediocre offensive talent into an elite unit. We'd also need some more leaders on this team because he tends to let the players police themselves.

I still think it could work, but I'm open to other options. He's not such a slam dunk for me that we can't look anywhere else.

I do think he's a better option than Josh.

~G

[Ravage!!!]

lolwut? Maybe to Chris Simms.

But seriously, I don't like Gruden and I don't think he's a good coach, he just inherited a superbowl and then drove that team into the ground. He's still better than McDaniels of course, but I hope we get better than Gruden.

Same could be said for the team taht inherited the Raiders FROM Gruden. Gruden had that Raiders team at the TOP of the AFC three years running. Gruden proved he could coach when in Oakland, and finished that when in Tampa.

[Devilspawn]

That was one of my favorite plays in NFL history. Tony doing that belly flop on Rich Gannon's shoulder. :laugh: :laugh:

That and the tuck-rule play -- two of my all-time favorites! (I hate the Raiders and want them to fail -- don't expect me to be nice about it).

yeah, this is why I wish we didn't stop piling on the points in the 4th quarter, for moments like these.

[Northman]

It seems Gannon was always on the end of a funny hit. The Siragusa flop and then the Denver/Raider game with Griese when Romo laid out Gannon and Gannon slid like 5 feet on the ground like a limp log. Obviously, him getting hurt is not a good thing but the way those two plays happened and looked on film are just epic and priceless to me.

[G_Money]

yeah, this is why I wish we didn't stop piling on the points in the 4th quarter, for moments like these.

I dunno why you stopped. How often do you get the chance to hang 70 on a "professional" team? ESPECIALLY a rival.

Haley won't make that mistake. :laugh:

~G

[Devilspawn]

I dunno why you stopped. How often do you get the chance to hang 70 on a "professional" team? ESPECIALLY a rival.

Haley won't make that mistake. :laugh:

~G
I think primarily for health reasons since McFadden is injury prone and we had two healthy QBs at the time. Heyward Bey could've passed his stats if he didn't suck so much. I wonder if this SpyGate thing was out then if it would've been different. Bah.

[Northman]

I think primarily for health reasons since McFadden is injury prone and we had two healthy QBs at the time. Heyward Bey could've passed his stats if he didn't suck so much. I wonder if this SpyGate thing was out then if it would've been different. Bah.

I dont know, although by rule it was the right call everyone and their mother knew he fumbled. Just a very unlucky break at the worst possible time.

[Cugel]

yeah, this is why I wish we didn't stop piling on the points in the 4th quarter, for moments like these.

You SHOULD pile on points in the 4th quarter! Hell! Score 100 if you get the chance! I'm not one of those whining weenies who say [little girl voice] "they ran up the score on us! They were mean bullies and now I'm sad."

Yeah, well. This is the NFL baby! No B.S. If we get the chance to run the score up on you we will! Good luck with that division title that's about to slip away again to the Chargers!

This is a BRONCOS forum. We HATE the Raiders. If you don't like it you know where you can go! :coffee:

[Cugel]

Argument against Gruden:

I'm not really pro or against hiring Gruden. There could be better candidates out there (like Rex Ryan was for the Jets).

But, here's the negative argument:

1. Normally it takes a Hall of Fame or consistent Pro-Bowl caliber QB to win a championship. Know who's won the last 18?

1. Troy Aikman (3 and SB MVP) (Hall of Fame)
2. Steve Young (Hall of Fame)
3. Brett Favre (certain future Hall of Fame)
4. John Elway (2) (Hall of Fame)
5. Kurt Warner (certain future Hall of Fame)
6. Tom Brady (3 so far) (certain future Hall of Fame)
7. Ben Roethlisberger (2 so far) (possible future Hall of Fame -- multiple pro-bowls)
8. Peyton Manning (certain future Hall of Fame)
9. Eli Manning (possible future Hall of Fame -- multiple pro-bowls).
10. Drew Brees (possible future Hall of Fame -- multiple pro-bowls).

Basically Roethlisberger, E. Manning & Brees are too early in their careers to say they will make the Hall of Fame, but they've made good starts to their careers and have gone to more than 1 pro-bowl.

The exceptions from that list?

2000 Ravens and 2003 Bucs. The 2000 Ravens had the best defense in modern NFL history giving up the fewest points (the only stat that counts). The Bucs defense was the 2nd best since the 85'-86' Bears and #3 all time.

So, conclusion: If you have one of the top 3 defenses of all time you can win a SB with Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson, or Jim McMahon. But, don't expect to do it numerous times because it's tough to play defense at that level for multiple years in a row. Players get older and retire, players get injured, key players want more money and want to become FAs to get that huge pay-day and it's tough to keep them all within the salary cap.

Because the NFL has changed all the rules to favor the offense, this is a PASSER dominated league. The top teams all have top 5 QBs and multiple talented offenses.

You just aren't going to win the SB with a Brad Johnson at QB very often because not many teams have Simeon Rice and Dexter Jackson and Warren Sapp and a bunch of other guys all having career years. (Or Ray Lewis and Tony Siragusa, etc. for the Ravens).

[I Eat Staples]

Eli Manning should not even be considered for the HoF.

[Devilspawn]

You SHOULD pile on points in the 4th quarter! Hell! Score 100 if you get the chance! I'm not one of those whining weenies who say [little girl voice] "they ran up the score on us! They were mean bullies and now I'm sad."

Yeah, well. This is the NFL baby! No B.S. If we get the chance to run the score up on you we will! Good luck with that division title that's about to slip away again to the Chargers!

This is a BRONCOS forum. We HATE the Raiders. If you don't like it you know where you can go! :coffee:
:lol:

[BroncoStud]

I think Big Ben will be an easy choice for the HoF when his career is over. He can flat out play football. He went from being a game-manager like Kyle Orton (only he is mobile and has a big arm) to attacking defenses with his arms and his legs and winning games when the team needs to be on his shoulders.

Ben is the real deal.

[silkamilkamonico]

1. Normally it takes a Hall of Fame or consistent Pro-Bowl caliber QB to win a championship. Know who's won the last 18?

1. Troy Aikman (3 and SB MVP) (Hall of Fame)
2. Steve Young (Hall of Fame)
3. Brett Favre (certain future Hall of Fame)
4. John Elway (2) (Hall of Fame)
5. Kurt Warner (certain future Hall of Fame)
6. Tom Brady (3 so far) (certain future Hall of Fame)
7. Ben Roethlisberger (2 so far) (possible future Hall of Fame -- multiple pro-bowls)
8. Peyton Manning (certain future Hall of Fame)
9. Eli Manning (possible future Hall of Fame -- multiple pro-bowls).
10. Drew Brees (possible future Hall of Fame -- multiple pro-bowls).


I don't think Hof-like QB's win the SuperBowl, I think the SuperBowl turns good QB's into HoF ones. Obviously it's a wait and see what happens the rest of their career, but Drew Brees had 1 playoff win the year going into winning the SuperBowl. Then he wins the SuperBowl and people are talking about his legacy.

There are plenty of good QB's in the NFL right now, that if they happened to win a SuperBowl and continued to put up Pro Bowl type numbers, they would be in consideration too.

I don't disagree with that per say, but Drew Brees, Eli Manning, Ben Roethlesgerger, and Kurt Warner (exception because he got there so young, but he wasn't stamped in until he got Arizona to the SuperBowl) would not even be in the discussions for HoF if they didn't win the SuperBowl. Roethlesberger is a hard one because he got there so young and everyone knows the defense won his SuperBowls.

[Ravage!!!]

I don't think Hof-like QB's win the SuperBowl, I think the SuperBowl turns good QB's into HoF ones. Obviously it's a wait and see what happens the rest of their career, but Drew Brees had 1 playoff win the year going into winning the SuperBowl. Then he wins the SuperBowl and people are talking about his legacy.

There are plenty of good QB's in the NFL right now, that if they happened to win a SuperBowl and continued to put up Pro Bowl type numbers, they would be in consideration too.

I don't disagree with that per say, but Drew Brees, Eli Manning, Ben Roethlesgerger, and Kurt Warner (exception because he got there so young, but he wasn't stamped in until he got Arizona to the SuperBowl) would not even be in the discussions for HoF if they didn't win the SuperBowl. Roethlesberger is a hard one because he got there so young and everyone knows the defense won his SuperBowls.

I agree with you on Drew Brees, but not Ben Roth or Warner. You look at Warner's stats, and he absolutely is a HoF "caliber" QB that should be considered.

You must not have watched the SB against the cardinals if you think Rothlesburger's defense won his Super Bowls for him. Hell, he was MORE than most that team that year.

But now he's won two. How many QBs are not in the HoF that have two winning Super Bowls?

But I agree. Seems that if a QB wins a Super Bowl, people want to bring up their name. Brees is the perfect example. He was never a "hof" guy until the SB win.

[gobroncsnv]

Not gonna be holding my breath for the unveiling of the HOF bust for Dilfer or Brad Johnson...
Brees might be a different story, because he has put up some good numbers, was kinda washed up for a while, then came back pretty strong. I thought the Chargers were smart to let him go there, since he took a while to get his shoulder back... Maybe they are not bummed so much about Rivers' game, but now Brees has shown he can win a big game. He came back stronger than what I, and many others, thought he would.
So far, Rivers is just a regular season wonder.

[Lancane]

I agree with you on Drew Brees, but not Ben Roth or Warner. You look at Warner's stats, and he absolutely is a HoF "caliber" QB that should be considered.

You must not have watched the SB against the cardinals if you think Rothlesburger's defense won his Super Bowls for him. Hell, he was MORE than most that team that year.

But now he's won two. How many QBs are not in the HoF that have two winning Super Bowls?

But I agree. Seems that if a QB wins a Super Bowl, people want to bring up their name. Brees is the perfect example. He was never a "hof" guy until the SB win.

That's not always true...I don't see Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson headed to Canton, even though they were part of two Super Bowl winning teams.

And of course we have to look at the likes of Jim Kelly and Dan Marino, they never won the big game, but we all knew they were surefire hall of fame bound quarterbacks.

A world championship helps, there is no doubt about that, but who would really dispute that Payton Manning wasn't worthy even if he never won that one Super Bowl ring? Rivers, could very much fall into that category of someone never to win a ring but to be inducted into the hall.

[G_Money]

I've looked at it much the same way, Cugel. Repost from around the time of the Cutler trade:


Yeah, but the odds are against the limited-talent QBs.

Again, Super Bowl winning QBs the last quarter-century:


Joe Montana, San Francisco 49ers - SB XIX - HOF
Jim McMahon, Chicago Bears - SB XX potential greatest defense of all time
Phil Simms, New York Giants - SB XXI great defense, HOF head coach
Doug Williams, Washington Redskins - SB XXII great defense, HOF head coach
Joe Montana, San Francisco 49ers - SB XXIII - HOF
Joe Montana, San Francisco 49ers - SB XXIV - HOF
Jeff Hostetler, New York Giants - SB XXV great defense, HOF head coach
Mark Rypien, Washington Redskins - SB XXVI great defense, HOF head coach
Troy Aikman, Dallas Cowboys - SB XXVII - HOF
Troy Aikman, Dallas Cowboys - SB XXVIII - HOF
Steve Young, San Francisco 49ers - SB XXIX - HOF
Troy Aikman, Dallas Cowboys - SB XXX - HOF
Brett Favre, Green Bay Packers - SB XXXI - HOF
John Elway, Denver Broncos - SB XXXII - HOF
John Elway, Denver Broncos - SB XXXIII - HOF
Kurt Warner, St. Louis Rams - SB XXXIV - HOF candidate and multiple league MVP
Trent Dilfer, Baltimore Ravens - SB XXXV potential greatest defense of all time
Tom Brady, New England Patriots - SB XXXVI - HOF candidate
Brad Johnson, Tampa Bay Buccaneers - SB XXXVII incredible defense
Tom Brady, New England Patriots - SB XXXVIII - HOF candidate
Tom Brady, New England Patriots - SB XXXIX - HOF candidate
Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers - SB XL - Incredible defense, building HOF resume
Peyton Manning, Indianapolis Colts - SB XLI - HOF candidate
Eli Manning, New York Giants - SB XLII - Incredible defense, #1 draft pick
Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers - SB XLIII - Incredible defense, building HOF resume
Of the last 25 world champions, the ones that won without great QBs:

McMahon's Bears - had potentially the greatest defense ever
Simms' and Hostetler's Giants - HOF head coach, Top-2 defense both years.
Williams' and Rypien's Redskins - HOF head coach, #6 scoring D in 87, top 3 in yards and points in 91.
Dilfer's Ravens - had potentially the greatest defense ever
Johnson's Bucs - Best defense in the league in every category, pretty much
Manning's Giants - the one argument on here for a team coming together - gelling, if you will - at the right time and making the most out of a decent team.

So...only 33% of the SB champs of the last quarter century did not have a HOF (or HOF-candidate) QB as their leader.

All of those - ALL - had absolutely world-class defenses, in many cases all-time defenses, except for the 2007 Giants (and maybe the 87 Skins). The Giants and Skins defenses became world-beaters in the playoffs though, and those championships came on the backs of some phenomenal defensive playoff performances.

Nothing on this list says a HOF QB will win you a title without a defense - those Cowboys teams, Niners teams, Pats teams, Steelers teams all ALSO had outstanding defenses. As Coach pointed out, the Foutses and Kellys of the world didn't get that ultimate ring, no matter how good they were.

But if you're gonna try to win a title without a great QB, then you'd better have a Top-2 defense and preferrably a HOF coach while you're at it.

There's no rule that says Cutler has to be our potentially-great QB, or even that he can be.

But if he isn't, we'd better find one, or we're going into the teeth of long odds, because the only thing harder to find around here than a replacement for our HOF QB has been a great defense.

Last year with the Saints...well, Brees is making his HOF resume as well, and we'll see where their head coach gets to. The defense wasn't the greatest ever, but that offense was something else.

I think Brees has a great chance to be a Hall of Fame QB. He's outstanding.

But I'm not sure how the HOF QB problem is a slight on Gruden. Tebow could be a HOFer. ;)

The real slight on him, I would think, is that no head coach has ever won a SB with more than one team. Parcells has gotten to them with different teams, as has Dan Reeves and others, but nobody's won em.

Still, I'm more concerned with fixing the defense than making sure we have a HOF QB in place while we do it. Big Ben has done his fair share in helping out the Steelers, and he's a great QB, but some of his greatness comes from the wins, and the defense helps a lot with those wins. They took him to the first one and he repaid the favor later.

Whether HOF QBs win Super Bowls or winning Super Bowls puts you in the HOF is a good question, but I'd rather just get the winning done, and we're not doing that with this joke of a defense or coach.

I long for the days of Larry Coyer. Sad...

~G

[sneakers]

Gruden Collected quarterbacks like they were Pokemon...he had like 5 on the roster at any given time.

[G_Money]

They may have thrown the ball, but most of them weren't quarterbacks. Whenever he's had a real QB around he's done pretty well. When he hasn't, it's been a huge problem.

~G

[gobroncsnv]

I'll go you one better, G... give me back Coyer with a real Dline... Look at the "team identity" thing again. The Giants ALWAYS have a great 4 man pass rush. Baltimore always has a great front line. It's pretty much a team identity thing. They recognize the importance of the front wall on a D and DO something about it, year in, year out.
I still think that Denver's front office is the team's greatest weakness, which projects onto the field, but that primary weak spot leads to their predominant second greatest weakness, the Dline. Many here would probably argue the coach, but since this trend goes back at least 10 years ('cause Shanny never put one in place), it comes down to whoever has been pulling the trigger (or not) on getting this done.
To me, if you don't have a GREAT front 5 on O, or front 3 or 4 on D, who you have playing behind them won't have NEARLY the success that they could otherwise. Right now, I consider this more of a talent gap than a coaching gap. Nunnely had some great front line play when he was with the Bolts, not so much here. Williams is no longer the presence that he once was when he wore blue and yellow.
Granted, Dumes is out, and Ayers has been out much of the season (and had little impact last Sunday)... but again, these guys are LB's. We need more push out of the guys who start a play with one hand on the ground. Til we solve this, any change of coaches will be just window dressing in my book. Front office needs to do something about this ongoing nightmare, or the next coach (and DC) will be just as ineffective as our past few years. (Unless you like just getting to the playoffs and getting Peyton Manning'd once again)...

[Dreadnought]

I'll go you one better, G... give me back Coyer with a real Dline... Look at the "team identity" thing again. The Giants ALWAYS have a great 4 man pass rush.

Hell, just Coyer and the "Browncos" and I'd be happy at this point. In retrospect those guys weren't that bad, and our defense was pretty respectable. Better than merely respectable in '05 really.