I'm in the Twighlight Zone, I need some help

[Tned]

Ok, I didn't think this would ever be the case, but I find myself being one of only a handful of poeple not calling for McDaniels to be fired. Is that really the case, or are the rest of you just silent?

Now, I do think all you ****s that called me a McDaniels hater should also post your "Oops, I guess you really did just take issue with some of his player moves", but that's an aside.

Really folks, there is zero upside in firing McDaniels right now. Surely I'm not the only person that sees that.

Help me out, convince me I haven't fallen into some alternate universe where everyone has jumped on the fire McDaniels bandwagon.

[Lancane]

Ok, I didn't think this would ever be the case, but I find myself being one of only a handful of poeple not calling for McDaniels to be fired. Is that really the case, or are the rest of you just silent?

Now, I do think all you ****s that called me a McDaniels hater should also post your "Oops, I guess you really did just take issue with some of his player moves", but that's an aside.

Really folks, there is zero upside in firing McDaniels right now. Surely I'm not the only person that sees that.

Help me out, convince me I haven't fallen into some alternate universe where everyone has jumped on the fire McDaniels bandwagon.

Ummmm...I say fire his ass, so I'm of no real help! Sorry...

[Krugan]

There is reason to remove it now Tned.

Its simple, retaining is only prolonging the inevitable.

And the damage that can further be done is mind boggling.

I base this on the extreme decline we have seen in the last 1 1/2 years.

He took an 8-8 team, made them 8-8(which I feel isnt the whole story, we fell hard and havent gotten up) and now has a team that might MIGHT win 5.

That in itself is reason enough to pull the plug early and save yourself from another 16 games of getting kicked around.

This isnt what your were asking, sorry ive been drinking, and comprehension is hard:)

[Fan in Exile]

I'm with you Tned. I don't think we should fire him until at least the end of next season. We just need more time. I know that some people believe that they can already divine the future but constant change is a bad thing.

[Tned]

There is reason to remove it now Tned.

Its simple, retaining is only prolonging the inevitable.

And the damage that can further be done is mind boggling.

I base this on the extreme decline we have seen in the last 1 1/2 years.

He took an 8-8 team, made them 8-8(which I feel isnt the whole story, we fell hard and havent gotten up) and now has a team that might MIGHT win 5.

That in itself is reason enough to pull the plug early and save yourself from another 16 games of getting kicked around.

This isnt what your were asking, sorry ive been drinking, and comprehension is hard:)

In fairness, he's in line to break some records. A couple more losses, and this Broncos team will have the worse 20 game stretch in team history.... Ba Da Boooom

Ok, back to being serious.


I'm with you Tned. I don't think we should fire him until at least the end of next season. We just need more time. I know that some people believe that they can already divine the future but constant change is a bad thing.

Agreed. I am NOT happy by being 5-16 in the last 21, having a fighting chance at the top pick in the NFL draft, if not certainly a top 5.

However, the Broncos brass signed off on the scorched earth approach to rebuilding the roster, and when you go that route, you don't replace 2/3+ of the roster with quality talent in two off seasons. IMO, he's made some huge personnel blunders, but I still think that once you are in this far, you stay the course through next season. The only reason I think Mr. Bowlen and Mr. Ellis should even have pause is because of the embarrassment of this filming thing.

IMHO, if Bowlen/Ellis still believe in his rebuilding plan, they need to keep him on.

This losing streak should not be a real surprise to anyone.

[I Eat Staples]

There's no upside in keeping him. This year is already lost, and if McDaniels is allowed to botch yet another draft, he's going to set us back about another 3 years in addition to how long he's already set us back.

[Cugel]

Anybody who is still defending McDaniels at this point is flat stupid. That's all. :coffee:

Not only a loser, but a cheater as well? I seem to remember all the Denver fan outrage at Belichek when he got caught for videotaping. And now McDaniels insisted on hiring the same guy? And he does it again?

And their response is "whoops?".

The Broncos will be lucky if they don't lose DRAFT picks over this. The Pats lost a #1 draft pick. The Broncos probably won't suffer that severe a penalty because (at least so far) nobody has proved an ONGOING practice of cheating.

But, this is just a flat embarrassment. And anyone who really believes McDaniels "didn't know" is just full of it.

If Bowlen doesn't FIRE this candy-ass fool at seasons' end then it will be only because he's a cheap ******* who doesn't care about anything but his pocket-book and doesn't want to pay an additional salary.

Well, I knew it was a mistake to lock this turd up for another 2 seasons. He could have waited until this off-season to negotiate a new contract. But, NO. He had to give him a "vote of confidence." Well time for Bowlen to man up and admit "I made a mistake."

That's all we want to hear. "I thought Josh McDaniels could do the job. I was mistaken."

[Tned]

There's no upside in keeping him. This year is already lost, and if McDaniels is allowed to botch yet another draft, he's going to set us back about another 3 years in addition to how long he's already set us back.

Even if Bowlen/Ellis believe that, then they should fire him after week 17, not after week 12.

[Ziggy]

I've always maintained that a coach needs 3 years regardless. The problem is McDaniels personnel moves more than his coaching IMO. He has no patience in the draft, or with player development. I am fully supportive of the Marshall and Cutler trades. They needed to go. However, if you don't maximize the draft picks, any trade becomes a loss.

Thus far, McD hasn't been able to stay away from the sexy picks high in the draft. WR, QB, RB, LB, and a trade for a midget corner. No defensive or offensive lineman with those 1st rounders. You can't build a winner in the NFL that way.

My vote would be to bring Parcells in as a GM and let him decide if he wants to keep McD as a coach or not. McD was hired as a coach, not a GM. If Parcells wants to get rid of him, then so be it. If McD decides that he doesn't want to coach under Parcells, then so be it.

[Day1BroncoFan]

I'm not on the fire him now bandwagon but if I heard he was fired tomorrow morning it wouldn't break my heart. I do hope he is not here next season.

[Nomad]

I've always maintained that a coach needs 3 years regardless. The problem is McDaniels personnel moves more than his coaching IMO. He has no patience in the draft, or with player development. I am fully supportive of the Marshall and Cutler trades. They needed to go. However, if you don't maximize the draft picks, any trade becomes a loss.

Thus far, McD hasn't been able to stay away from the sexy picks high in the draft. WR, QB, RB, LB, and a trade for a midget corner. No defensive or offensive lineman with those 1st rounders. You can't build a winner in the NFL that way.

My vote would be to bring Parcells in as a GM and let him decide if he wants to keep McD as a coach or not. McD was hired as a coach, not a GM. If Parcells wants to get rid of him, then so be it. If McD decides that he doesn't want to coach under Parcells, then so be it.

Well said Ziggy!! But this is on Bowlen and IMO he's going to sit on his hands and do nothing!!

[gobroncsnv]

I'm fairly torn, since starting over again would mean we are starting over again, again. At some point, you need to start getting some traction. There are those who are wanting to blow the whole thing up, but at this point, after making such a big change, and now doing another one, we'll look like an expansion team for a WHILE, from my view.
We scored enough points today to get a victory, but for that little problem of being OUT-scored. There were some adjustments made that allowed for the comeback, but there was also some failure on the players' parts that prevented the win, both early AND late.
As with Coyer, I'm curious how Wink (and the rest of the D coordinator parade) would have done with solid dline play.
IF McD stays, and he probably will, (because I don't think Bowlen has enough moneybags to pay 3 coaches in one season), he'll need to have an off-season that won't be forgotten, because this year's In-season is definitely forgettable.
I've said before, Bowlen needs to drive a stake in the ground and keep a consistent program in place. That comment is not about Josh, but a LONG-TERM goal of filling the holes that come with the same type of player that leaves, hopefully improving on them.
Everybody groan together, but look at NE, PITT, B'more, SD, and the other teams who are pretty consistent over the years. They don't have to count on a draft to turn their fortunes around. They have to fill very few positions, because they draft according to a preset philosophy.
So I don't share the vitriol that others have shown, but IF Josh stays, he better start seeing this, and they need to put in a strong GM who has a lot of say in what goes on. Seems like our GM's have been in name only since Shanny came along, and that didn't change after he left.
Then too, the injury string we're going through is not at all helping the cause. I can't so easily dismiss that.

[Tned]

Anybody who is still defending McDaniels at this point is flat stupid. That's all. :coffee:

Anyone that debates points by calling others stupid, is flat stupid. Then again, you probably won't grasp that. Just sayin...


Not only a loser, but a cheater as well? I seem to remember all the Denver fan outrage at Belichek when he got caught for videotaping. And now McDaniels insisted on hiring the same guy? And he does it again?

And their response is "whoops?".


One, there is no evidence that he cheated. Two, I wasn't part of the overzealoous crowd yapping about Belicheat and all that jazz. Anyone, who wasn't stupid, hmmm I wonder who that leaves out ;), could see that the Pats won their SBs based on talent.



The Broncos will be lucky if they don't lose DRAFT picks over this. The Pats lost a #1 draft pick. The Broncos probably won't suffer that severe a penalty because (at least so far) nobody has proved an ONGOING practice of cheating.

While that could happen, the Pats lost the pick, because they did it for seven years, and it was known and encouraged by the HC and execs.


But, this is just a flat embarrassment. And anyone who really believes McDaniels "didn't know" is just full of it.

Glad to see that God is no longer the only all seeing entity, that we can add Cugel to the list.... :rolleyes:


If Bowlen doesn't FIRE this candy-ass fool at seasons' end then it will be only because he's a cheap ******* who doesn't care about anything but his pocket-book and doesn't want to pay an additional salary.

Yea, because if he doesn't agree with the all knowing Cuge, it must be because he's cheap.


Well, I knew it was a mistake to lock this turd up for another 2 seasons. He could have waited until this off-season to negotiate a new contract. But, NO. He had to give him a "vote of confidence." Well time for Bowlen to man up and admit "I made a mistake."

That's all we want to hear. "I thought Josh McDaniels could do the job. I was mistaken."

All I'm looking for is the Broncos to come out of their first true rebuilding period in 27 years with a strong team. Guess we have different needs in all of this.

[Cugel]

In fairness, he's in line to break some records. A couple more losses, and this Broncos team will have the worse 20 game stretch in team history.... Ba Da Boooom

Ok, back to being serious.

This losing streak should not be a real surprise to anyone.

There. Shorter and better. :coffee:

This Broncos team will have a worse record this season than ANY Broncos team since 1967! Think about that one! Most of you weren't even BORN then. That was the BAD OLD DAYS when the Broncos were the laughing stock of the AFL with a cheap-skate owner, a wimp QB and no talent.

And we're back to those sad days? THIS is why Bowlen fired Shanny? This fiasco, this pathetic embarrassment where they lose to the sad-sack 49ers and Rams? And get blown out by the Raiders at home and the Chargers on the road?

Just how bad does it have to get before you pull the plug?

And why would anybody think next season would be different or that the fans will tolerate having that scumbag McDaniels back for another season?

Would YOU buy season tickets to watch this farce? Not me. :coffee:

[MasterShake]

When they showed a list of how many Defensive Coordinators we have had over the past decade, I started to realize that head coach was the least of our problems. The last thing we need right now is another shakeup, and we will know after the dust settles NEXT season what kind of team/coach we have. I told myself when Shanny was fired that we probably wouldn't be ready for the playoffs for a good 2-4 seasons, and that was solidified when Cutler left.

I totally agree, there is zero upside to firing McD right now except to feel better and get rid of the "problem". The problem has been and continues to be turmoil and turnover. John Lynch touched on this in that we seemed to be set on Offense, then losing key players made us refocus our drafting on offense instead of defense. If we can shore up the defense through FA and the Draft and maybe get a good GM, I have absolutely no problem with McDaniels because I think he is a great offensive mind in many ways. But we need healthy players on Defense and a consistent D coordinator in order to start gelling.

If we pull the trigger now, we are definitely starting all over for another 2-3 seasons. I'm sticking to my initial gut instinct back in 2009 when all the changes started coming down that we won't be near ready for a playoff push until 2012 at the earliest. But we HAVE to show major improvement next year or it could get uglier really fast. We start out 2-6 again next year, I have absolutely no problem cutting our ties with McD and forcing the rebuild a little earlier.

[Cugel]

Glad to see that God is no longer the only all seeing entity, that we can add Cugel to the list.... :rolleyes:

I don't need divinity. I've watched the last 2 seasons unfold. Seeing is believing. Apparently your eyes are disconnected from your brain, or your denial skills are very highly polished. Possibly both. :coffee:

What pray, would convince you? A 30 game losing streak? For this employee to come out and admit he videotaped other games, just like he did for the Pats? No less than Bill Cowher has just come out on national TV and in effect called McDaniels a liar. What more do you want?

What would it take for you to come out of your denial?

[Tned]

I'm fairly torn, since starting over again would mean we are starting over again, again. At some point, you need to start getting some traction. There are those who are wanting to blow the whole thing up, but at this point, after making such a big change, and now doing another one, we'll look like an expansion team for a WHILE, from my view.


Not ignoring the rest of your post, it was right on, but wanted to comment on this.

This is what I have said from the day Shanny was hired. The odds are that McDaniels would be fired in 2-3 years, and the Broncos would move on to a new HC, who would start the rebuild process over with his schemes/vision in mind, and your in the dreaded coaching carousel. It's what happens to most teams. Broncos fans say, "but we aren't the ______ (fill in the blank with a losing team), we're the Broncos and we don't lose like that." Fact is that winning is not a Denver birthright. It's been a combination of good coaching, good ownership and great players that have prevented Denver from going through the typical NFL down cycle.

I was on the fence when Shanahan was fired, but only because I knew the odds were that we would be in this spot, just like we are. Not because I am clairvoyant, but because that's what typically happens in the NFL, when a team fires a coach and decides to rebuild, especially with a young HC.

Once you've gone this far, you need to be DAMN sure that it's time to hit the reset switch, because you could be delaying the return to winning by a couple years if your next HC is the wrong guy, and even if he's the right guy, you could be adding years to the turn around.

[girler]

I pretty much said the same thing about zero upside to firing him on the gameday thread, and got this response from Med:


right now it would be addtion by subtaction.

And really, I'm so embarrassed by the spygate thing, that win or lose, I'd rather have the broncos be able to hold their heads up the rest of the season WITHOUT McDaniels. So I think yes, it would be an addition to the team by subtracting him from the Broncos equation.

Cue Rod Serling...

[Tned]

:rolleyes:

I don't need divinity. I've watched the last 2 seasons unfold. Seeing is believing. Apparently your eyes are disconnected from your brain, or your denial skills are very highly polished. Possibly both. :coffee:

What pray, would convince you? A 30 game losing streak? For this employee to come out and admit he videotaped other games, just like he did for the Pats? No less than Bill Cowher has just come out on national TV and in effect called McDaniels a liar. What more do you want?

What would it take for you to come out of your denial?

I finished with you when you called me stupid and claimed to be God like. Run along little boy.

[I Eat Staples]

Even if Bowlen/Ellis believe that, then they should fire him after week 17, not after week 12.

I say the sooner the better, but I'll settle for week 17. All I know is that the more personnel moves McD makes, the further this franchise is set back.

[Tned]

I pretty much said the same thing about zero upside to firing him on the gameday thread, and got this response from Med:



And really, I'm so embarrassed by the spygate thing, that win or lose, I'd rather have the broncos be able to hold their heads up the rest of the season WITHOUT McDaniels. So I think yes, it would be an addition to the team by subtracting him from the Broncos equation.

Cue Rod Serling...

Yea, just like Cutler, Orton, Hillis and Scheffler have been addition by subtraction. There might have been good reasons for all of those moves, but like MS said, it forced them to turn to the draft to attempt replace them rather than focus on what was, and still is, the problem, which is defense.

Now, that's on McDaniels, but if Bowlen/Ellis believed in his plan, and still believe in it (which only they know), then they should let him finish the job.

[claymore]

Anyone that debates points by calling others stupid, is flat stupid. Then again, you probably won't grasp that. Just sayin...

What he said was kinda crass. But, it seems like each week we set a new low. And I too am baffled that some continue to support him.

If you were presented a list of the things McD was going to do before he was hired... you wouldnt have wanted him here.

He is a drama magnet. Things will only get worse. We havent seen the end.

McDaniels is bad for this organization. Very bad.

Bowlen is getting old. We need someone solid in there before it gets worse.

[Tned]

I say the sooner the better, but I'll settle for week 17. All I know is that the more personnel moves McD makes, the further this franchise is set back.

The trade deadline is over, so short of cutting Clady or Doom, there isn't much damage he can do to the roster between now and the end of the season.

[Dreadnought]

First rule of getting out of a hole is stop digging. This means McD should be fired tomorrow AM, because each and every day he occupies that job we get worse. Firing him only applies a tournequet, but we are bleeding out.

Given his character flaws (I don't feel like revisiting them all in this thread) he is unsalvagable. A terrible coach and a terrible leader. A man with no credibility, and that can't be fixed any more.

I never wanted things blown up to begin with, but right about now its where we are. So blow it up. We weren't all that totally screwed after the '08 season, and now we are a joke. Blow it up.

[Tned]

What he said was kinda crass. But, it seems like each week we set a new low. And I too am baffled that some continue to support him.

If you were presented a list of the things McD was going to do before he was hired... you wouldnt have wanted him here.

He is a drama magnet. Things will only get worse. We havent seen the end.

McDaniels is bad for this organization. Very bad.

Bowlen is getting old. We need someone solid in there before it gets worse.

You know very well, I don't think he picked up the phone and said "no". I have not been a fan of most of his player moves. However, I do believe that if that was part of a plan that Bowlen/Ellis signed off on, then the prudent thing is to let him finish it out. You can't turn over 2/3+ of the roster, including your most talented offensive players (save Clady), and expect to fix it in two offseasons.

[Dreadnought]

You know very well, I don't think he picked up the phone and said "no". I have not been a fan of most of his player moves. However, I do believe that if that was part of a plan that Bowlen/Ellis signed off on, then the prudent thing is to let him finish it out. You can't turn over 2/3+ of the roster, including your most talented offensive players (save Clady), and expect to fix it in two offseasons.

Howz about this analogy. The plan, such as it is, is unworkable. All efforts in pursuit of the plan are worse than useless. The correct approach is shitcan the plan, not insist on seeing it through. That can only be done by firing him.

[jhildebrand]

There is zero upside? How about protecting your organization and the very draft picks you will need to rebuild? :confused:

What good will come from keeping him and at what potential cost?

[Day1BroncoFan]

Seems pretty obvious to me McDaniels plan is not working. Nothing he has done so far has made the team better. He has been one controversy after another since he came.

Why should we want him to stay? What has he done since he got here that has made the Broncos better? What has he done that makes anyone think he'll do something positive next year?

[Tned]

Howz about this analogy. The plan, such as it is, is unworkable. All efforts in pursuit of the plan are worse than useless. The correct approach is shitcan the plan, not insist on seeing it through. That can only be done by firing him.

Come on, we all knew once Cutler was trade, and writing was on wall that Marshall would follow and draft was focused on offense, that this would be the likely result.

We are in the first rebuilding period that multiple generations of Broncos fans have seen. Am I convinced that McDaniels can rebuild it? No. He's made a shit load of rookie / ego driven mistakes. However, I think Bowlen and Ellis have a better feel for if the plan is on schedule than we do.

[girler]

Yea, just like Cutler, Orton, Hillis and Scheffler have been addition by subtraction. There might have been good reasons for all of those moves, but like MS said, it forced them to turn to the draft to attempt replace them rather than focus on what was, and still is, the problem, which is defense.

Now, that's on McDaniels, but if Bowlen/Ellis believed in his plan, and still believe in it (which only they know), then they should let him finish the job.

I keep looking at Dread's sig pic... I see that Navy Battle as Josh McDaniels' football team. He is building it by blowing it up! Thus the examples you gave me of his "additions by subtraction." I say it's time to take out the general in charge of that stupidity and put in someone who will fight the enemy, not his own best soldiers.

[Nomad]

Seems pretty obvious to me McDaniels plan is not working. Nothing he has done so far has made the team better. He has been one controversy after another since he came.

Why should we want him to stay? What has he done since he got here that has made the Broncos better? What has he done that makes anyone think he'll do something positive next year?

Good questions Day1! Perhaps Ziggy has the best answer to that, because Mcdaniels won't get fired so I hope Bowlen tries Ziggy's idea!!

[TXBRONC]

Ok, I didn't think this would ever be the case, but I find myself being one of only a handful of poeple not calling for McDaniels to be fired. Is that really the case, or are the rest of you just silent?

Now, I do think all you ****s that called me a McDaniels hater should also post your "Oops, I guess you really did just take issue with some of his player moves", but that's an aside.

Really folks, there is zero upside in firing McDaniels right now. Surely I'm not the only person that sees that.

Help me out, convince me I haven't fallen into some alternate universe where everyone has jumped on the fire McDaniels bandwagon.

I'm not saying fire him like yesterday. If things don't start looking better by the end of season then I really think Bowlen needs to seriously considering letting him go.

I'm sure you have very solid reasons for saying that firing McDaniels right now has no upside but I've missed exactly what that reasoning is. You say there is no upside I don't agree. Since he became the head coach this team has had 3 losing streaks of four games or more, we haven't won back to back games since last year when we beat the Giants and Chiefs our offense has regressed, we haven't made any really substantial improvement on Special Teams and he did nothing to improve the one thing everyone and their dog knew he needed to improve and was the defense. He's really has done ANYTHING different from Shanahan other than fact chanced it from a 4-3 to a 3-4. So I don't agree that a case can not be made for there zero upside to letting him right now.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I hate McDaniels and everything he stands for. This goes way beyond just bad coaching and play calling. He has shown nothing of rebuilding, only of destroying.

Mismanagement of personnel both at the staff and player level, the arrogance, the lying, the false ignorance to the rules, the smug or misleading answers to legitimate questions, the sideline fingernail biting when he's getting his ass kicked, the almost weekly hypocrisy on his part as he preaches a certain type of "team" ethic then repeatedly deviates from that ethic with his alienation and public chastising of players... all of these things and the many more I didn't take the time to mention make me hate him for who he is, not just what he has done to this team.

I don't give a shit if he turns us around and we go 19-0 next year and win a Championship, I'll still loathe him. He has pretty much displayed everything that I find distasteful in a human being.

[I Eat Staples]

The trade deadline is over, so short of cutting Clady or Doom, there isn't much damage he can do to the roster between now and the end of the season.

I understand that, but if he makes it into the offseason we're really screwed. I see no reason to keep him, at this point he should be like a lame duck.

[LordTrychon]

After the news the other day, I posted that I didn't think there was much that could put me on the fire Mcdaniels wagon, but I was now closer than ever or there.

I still think it won't happen though.

And I can't bring myself to be among those who root for us to continue to lose for (insert whatever gain here).

I still want the Broncos to succeed each and every week.

I won't say I'm on the other side of that fence yet to want him gone... but I've started to swing a leg over. It helps that the NFL came out and applauded the handling of the taping incident.

[Dreadnought]

I keep looking at Dread's sig pic... I see that Navy Battle as Josh McDaniels' football team. He is building it by blowing it up! Thus the examples you gave me of his "additions by subtraction." I say it's time to take out the general in charge of that stupidity and put in someone who will fight the enemy, not his own best soldiers.

To change analogies - Union General John Pope, in the American Civil War. Built up a big reputation in the Mississippi Valley, and was brought East by Lincoln to replace the dithering McClellan against Lee. Pope was a big talker. Surrounded himself with Yes-Men, insulted the troops he was brought in to lead by telling them they and their leaders were losers, and he was going to instill the "winning attitude." Lots of tough-guy posing. Lots of stories about his fighhtiong prowess in the press.

And he was taken to the woodshed for a total thrashing by Lee and co. at 2nd Bull Run. It was maybe the worst bit of generalling in a War with plenty of examples of it. Lee and Longstreet made a complete fool of the man. What was even worse, General Fitzjohn Porter watched the flanking movement that was about to destroy Pope's Army, gave Pope regular updates on its progress, and was disregarded because he was a "McClellan Man." He had a losers attitude or something. After the battle, Pope's main focus became blaming everything on Porter in the press. Porter was court martialled and driven from the Army. Pope was sent to Minnesiota to fight Indians for the rest of the War. An act of congress 20 years late finally cleared Porter's name.

Lincoln was smart enough not to let Pope command in a serious situation again. He made a mistake, and fixed it fast. Is Bowlen?

[Tned]

I'm not saying fire him like yesterday. If things don't start looking better by the end of season then I really think Bowlen needs to seriously considering letting him go.

I'm sure you have very solid reasons for saying that firing McDaniels right now has no upside but I've missed exactly what that reasoning is. You say there is no upside I don't agree. Since he became the head coach this team has had 3 losing streaks of four games or more, we haven't won back to back games since last year when we beat the Giants and Chiefs our offense has regressed, we haven't made any really substantial improvement on Special Teams and he did nothing to improve the one thing everyone and their dog knew he needed to improve and was the defense. He's really has done ANYTHING different from Shanahan other than fact chanced it from a 4-3 to a 3-4. So I don't agree that a case can not be made for there zero upside to letting him right now.

Here is why there is zero upside in firing him today.

Broncos are not getting in the playoffs, so it isn't like a "boost" of energy from an interim coach will turn things around and get them in the playoffs.

So, what else could be the postive of firing him immediately? None that would be substantial or lasting.

On the other hand, if they let him finish out the year, it's possible that the plan starts to come together. Maybe he plays Tebow to see what he has. Maybe with Ayers healthy, the defense starts to gel again, play like it did against the Jets and other early games.

All I'm saying is that while I'm not going to sit here and say I believe McDaniels can turn things around, because I'm not sure I do, I can say that there is upside in at least letting him finish the year and no upside in immediately firing him --- other than appeasing the fans.

[UnderArmour]

McDaniels and the entire coaching staff deserve a mulligan on this season. Clady started off injured, Dumervil started off injured, Ayers was gone most of the year, Goodman was hurt, Knowshon was hurt, we were inserting rookies on O-Line/dealing with injuries there as well, and the bad breaks at the end of competitive games. This team has shown flashes this season and today it was pretty clear that the players are still responding to coaching.

McDaniels deserves a chance to build this football team. 2 seasons simply is not long enough to do so. How many times was Shanahan blown out by division rivals? How many years did Shanahan get while we waited on him to build a winner after Elway left? I'm not saying McDaniels should get the length of time that Shanahan got, but at the very least he deserves 3 or 4 years to build a winning franchise. We do not want to be part of the coaching carousel. We will be a better team next year when we get Doom back and have a chance to add some talent on the D-Line after shoring up our trenches last offseason.

Knee jerk reaction of fans is always to fire, fire, fire. How did that work out for our defense?

[Tned]

To change analogies - Union General John Pope, in the American Civil War. Built up a big reputation in the Mississippi Valley, and was brought East by Lincoln to replace the dithering McClellan against Lee. Pope was a big talker. Surrounded himself with Yes-Men, insulted the troops he was brought in to lead by telling them they and their leaders were losers, and he was going to instill the "winning attitude." Lots of tough-guy posing. Lots of stories about his fighhtiong prowess in the press.

And he was taken to the woodshed for a total thrashing by Lee and co. at 2nd Bull Run. It was maybe the worst bit of generalling in a War with plenty of examples of it. Lee and Longstreet made a complete fool of the man. What was even worse, General Fitzjohn Porter watched the flanking movement that was about to destroy Pope's Army, gave Pope regular updates on its progress, and was disregarded because he was a "McClellan Man." He had a losers attitude or something. After the battle, Pope's main focus became blaming everything on Porter in the press. Porter was court martialled and driven from the Army. Pope was sent to Minnesiota to fight Indians for the rest of the War. An act of congress 20 years late finally cleared Porter's name.

Lincoln was smart enough not to let Pope command in a serious situation again. He made a mistake, and fixed it fast. Is Bowlen?

I don't know if that actually is an accurate parallel, but I will :salute: you for the best analogy ever in my book!!

[I Eat Staples]

Here is why there is zero upside in firing him today.

Broncos are not getting in the playoffs, so it isn't like a "boost" of energy from an interim coach will turn things around and get them in the playoffs.

So, what else could be the postive of firing him immediately? None that would be substantial or lasting.

On the other hand, if they let him finish out the year, it's possible that the plan starts to come together. Maybe he plays Tebow to see what he has. Maybe with Ayers healthy, the defense starts to gel again, play like it did against the Jets and other early games.

All I'm saying is that while I'm not going to sit here and say I believe McDaniels can turn things around, because I'm not sure I do, I can say that there is upside in at least letting him finish the year and no upside in immediately firing him --- other than appeasing the fans.

I actually think your post gave me yet another reason to want him fired now. If we have some type of surge this season with him at the helm, it's going to be fools gold. McDaniels is not a good enough coach to win a super bowl. If we start to improve this season and he remains here, it's going to set us back even further. Any success from McD is nothing more than a fluke, and I'm not confident in Bowlen's ability to see through that.

[claymore]

You know very well, I don't think he picked up the phone and said "no". I have not been a fan of most of his player moves. However, I do believe that if that was part of a plan that Bowlen/Ellis signed off on, then the prudent thing is to let him finish it out. You can't turn over 2/3+ of the roster, including your most talented offensive players (save Clady), and expect to fix it in two offseasons.

I dont even think he is a good offensive coordinator yet let alone all the other facets of being a good HC. Not to mention the weird personality issues, and immaturity etc...

His OJT at the expense of the Broncos should be over. We should be seeing some exciting wins by now, not cheating scandles and a seires of losing streaks, coaches that wont shake his hand etc...

He is garbage.

[broncofaninfla]

The only way I would support keeping Mcd would be the Broncos firing Xanders and bringing in a bonfide GM to build the team Mcd could coach. Somebody's head has to roll over what has transpire with Denver since Mcd/Xanders took the helm. If you keep Mcd you haveto fire Xanders IMO. Both are learning thier trades at the expense of the Broncos organization. One has to go....

[Tned]

I dont even think he is a good offensive coordinator yet let alone all the other facets of being a good HC. Not to mention the weird personality issues, and immaturity etc...

His OJT at the expense of the Broncos should be over. We should be seeing some exciting wins by now, not cheating scandles and a seires of losing streaks, coaches that wont shake his hand etc...

He is garbage.

Come on you can't post that without puting a Stink "They're Garbage" youtube clip in your post! :tsk:

[Tned]

The only way I would support keeping Mcd would be the Broncos firing Xanders and bringing in a bonfide GM to build the team Mcd could coach. Somebody's head has to roll over what has transpire with Denver since Mcd/Xanders took the helm. If you keep Mcd you haveto fire Xanders IMO. Both are learning thier trades at the expense of the Broncos organization. One has to go....

I'm definately not one of the people that thought giving McDaniels Shanahan like control of the team was smart. So, bringing in a real GM would be smart in my book.

[BeefStew25]

If he wasn't also our GM, I would maybe be okay for another year. But this jackass also makes roster decisions.

[nevcraw]

McDaniels and the entire coaching staff deserve a mulligan on this season. Clady started off injured, Dumervil started off injured, Ayers was gone most of the year, Goodman was hurt, Knowshon was hurt, we were inserting rookies on O-Line/dealing with injuries there as well, and the bad breaks at the end of competitive games. This team has shown flashes this season and today it was pretty clear that the players are still responding to coaching.

McDaniels deserves a chance to build this football team. 2 seasons simply is not long enough to do so. How many times was Shanahan blown out by division rivals? How many years did Shanahan get while we waited on him to build a winner after Elway left? I'm not saying McDaniels should get the length of time that Shanahan got, but at the very least he deserves 3 or 4 years to build a winning franchise. We do not want to be part of the coaching carousel. We will be a better team next year when we get Doom back and have a chance to add some talent on the D-Line after shoring up our trenches last offseason.

Knee jerk reaction of fans is always to fire, fire, fire. How did that work out for our defense?

I would buy this argument if the team wasn't so badly managed, sloppy, repeating the same mistakes, and own an almost empty cupboard on defense.
I also think Shanny deserved the mulligans for a while because of a stellar body of work and was able to coach away a lot his personell mistakes while providing a competitive team year after year.

[spikerman]

. Surely I'm not the only person that sees that.


You might be the only person........... and don't call me Shirley.

Seriously, as others have mentioned, maybe the solution is to bring in a real General Manager and not a capologist who holds the title right away and let him make the decision.

[jhildebrand]

Here is why there is zero upside in firing him today.

Broncos are not getting in the playoffs, so it isn't like a "boost" of energy from an interim coach will turn things around and get them in the playoffs.

So, what else could be the postive of firing him immediately? None that would be substantial or lasting.

On the other hand, if they let him finish out the year, it's possible that the plan starts to come together. Maybe he plays Tebow to see what he has. Maybe with Ayers healthy, the defense starts to gel again, play like it did against the Jets and other early games.

All I'm saying is that while I'm not going to sit here and say I believe McDaniels can turn things around, because I'm not sure I do, I can say that there is upside in at least letting him finish the year and no upside in immediately firing him --- other than appeasing the fans.

I guess I would counter this with the following.

Following the 2008 season Bowlen fired Shanahan relatively early. The interviews that ensued happened rather quickly and McDaniels was named coach within a reasonable to faster time frame.

Even with all of that, this team has used the turnover as an excuse for being short handed going into that draft. That draft is a hair short of being a nightmare!

Firing McDaniels now ensures that he has zero potential to once again risk the top draft pick this team will have.

It also affords the team much more time to not only interview but lay a stronger more solid foundation. This team needs philosophical changes the kind that can take the longest to implement i.e. going to a tried and true GM.

While this team wont be able to begin interviewing potential coaches before other teams, they can begin interviewing truw GM candidates (my vote goes to Marty Schottenheimer) and preparing the scouting department and making the necessary changes there. If that were to happen, the new GM and new scouting department could then evaluate the current roster and properly prepare for next season as they see fit. We shorten our "learning curve" by almost half a season!

Meanwhile if we keep McDaniels, we allow a mindset and culture continue to sink in. The hardest thing to change in the NFL seems to be culture. The Lions and Bengals are the way they are because so many failed to truly change the culture. We have a chance to minimize that, albeit an unknown amount, to some degree.

[horsepig]

I've stood by McD all along. I've disagreed with a lot of his moves and seeming machinations, but have always held out hope for him to bring some serious improvement and elan to the team.

It's getting harder every week.

[spikerman]

You might be the only person........... and don't call me Shirley.


I hate quoting myself, but I swear I just flipped over to cnn.com and the breaking news is that Leslie Nielson has just died. :( :rip:

[Nomad]

I hate quoting myself, but I swear I just flipped over to cnn.com and the breaking news is that Leslie Nielson has just died. :( :rip:

That definitely sucks!! He was great, remember 'Airplane' one of many hilarious movies he was in!!

[dogfish]

The trade deadline is over, so short of cutting Clady or Doom, there isn't much damage he can do to the roster between now and the end of the season.

sure there is-- his cheating could end up costing us valuable draft picks if he gets caught again. . .

[jhildebrand]

For those in the HIRE GRUDEN camp word is he is close to signing a $3.65 million dollar deal with the University of Miami to become their next head coach.

[I Eat Staples]

For those in the HIRE GRUDEN camp word is he is close to signing a $3.65 million dollar deal with the University of Miami to become their next head coach.

I've heard from different sources that this rumor is false.

I wish it was true though, I think Gruden is an awful coach and I wouldn't want him.

[Nomad]

For those in the HIRE GRUDEN camp word is he is close to signing a $3.65 million dollar deal with the University of Miami to become their next head coach.

Never liked the Hurricane's!!!

[GEM]

I get the bringing up of the DC...but has it been addressed since? Has the defense been addressed (seriously) since? Nope. Instead he went to work on an offense that wasn't really broken and ignored a defense that has been shattered for well over a decade. Bravo Napoleon!!

[jhildebrand]

I've heard from different sources that this rumor is false.

I wish it was true though, I think Gruden is an awful coach and I wouldn't want him.

It is looking more and more true. Gruden contacted Miami. The Shannon firing came almost as soon as he entered the locker room following miami's loss.

I don't want Gruden here but plenty do. It will be interesting to see how this works out.

[Shazam!]

For those in the HIRE GRUDEN camp word is he is close to signing a $3.65 million dollar deal with the University of Miami to become their next head coach.

Jeff Fisher may be available. I like him.

[spikerman]

If Bowlen wants to save money by hiring a guy with no previous HC experience at the NFL level I still like Rob Ryan WITH a qualified GM

[HORSEPOWER 56]

For those of you so scared of firing McDaniels because it means starting over, why are you so scared?

The Miami Dolphins fired Dave Wanstedt and hired Cam Cameron. After one year and 1-15, they hired Sparano and went from worst to first in their division. The Falcons hired Mike Smith and went from last in their division to the playoffs. The Rams hired Spagnuolo and had a down season, they are now tied for 1st place in their division.

Why fear getting rid of a coach that has made us worse? What's the worst that could happen? 5-16 in the last 21 games? 3-8? Maybe even 0-16? I strongly doubt we could possibly be any worse. Nobody is a worse HC than McDaniels.

[Tned]

I get the bringing up of the DC...but has it been addressed since? Has the defense been addressed (seriously) since? Nope. Instead he went to work on an offense that wasn't really broken and ignored a defense that has been shattered for well over a decade. Bravo Napoleon!!

Where were you when I was singing that tune 18 months ago.... :mad:

[Lancane]

Let's be honest...didn't one of his biggest supporters on the forums say the other day that this is a 'What have you done for me now' league?, he utilized it in an argument regarding Brandon Marshall. Well, shouldn't a coach, particularly one that has shown nothing more then circus-esque movement in the not one but two back to back off-seasons, made horrid personnel decisions and even put an even worse product on the field be held accountable by the same said standards?

Let's overlook the whole spy-gate ordeal, what has he done for this organization and the fans thus far in his tenure? He's lied to us, the fans not once but several times. He's made us the laughing stock of the league (while his supporters claim that we were such before he came, though I beg to differ). The only bright spots to a horrific first year are traded (Marshall) whether you like him or not, he was a big part of any offensive success last year and the other (Nolan) decided to leave, I wonder why? He helped in the firing of the one gentleman that had proven to be solid at drafting so he could be replaced with a yes-man in Xanders. That's not including questionable trades and drafts across the board, questionable production and a horrid record that is shameful enough. So how far does he have to go...would we tolerate the same from a player who made a mass amount of mistakes? Not a F'n chance!

[GEM]

Where were you when I was singing that tune 18 months ago.... :mad:

McDaniels bandwagon hit me as I was crossing Broncos Blvd. Temporary stupidity.

[Tned]

For those of you so scared of firing McDaniels because it means starting over, why are you so scared?

The Miami Dolphins fired Dave Wanstedt and hired Cam Cameron. After one year and 1-15, they hired Sparano and went from worst to first in their division. The Falcons hired Mike Smith and went from last in their division to the playoffs. The Rams hired Spagnuolo and had a down season, they are now tied for 1st place in their division.

Why fear getting rid of a coach that has made us worse? What's the worst that could happen? 5-16 in the last 21 games? 3-8? Maybe even 0-16? I strongly doubt we could possibly be any worse. Nobody is a worse HC than McDaniels.

First, it's not being 'scared'

Second, I will say to you what I said to the people asking for Shanahan's head -- "be careful what you wish for, you just might get it."

Third, how many down seasons, high draft picks did those turn around teams get prior to their turn arounds?

There are a HANDFUL of quick turn around stories in the NFL, in almost all cases, they had a wealth of talent (like the Raiders roster right now, except at QB), but still, they have been few and far between. Would you like to also list all of the coaching changes that didn't result in quick, surprising turn arounds?

That's like saying that because Brady and TD were sixth round picks, that sixth round picks are more valuable and more likely to produce stars than first rounders. Yes, it VERY rare circustances, a sixth rounder becomes a super star, but far more of them are out of the league in a couple years.

[Tned]

Let's be honest...didn't one of his biggest supporters on the forums say the other day that this is a 'What have you done for me now' league?, he utilized it in an argument regarding Brandon Marshall. Well, shouldn't a coach, particularly one that has shown nothing more then circus-esque movement in the not one but two back to back off-seasons, made horrid personnel decisions and even put an even worse product on the field be held accountable by the same said standards?

Let's overlook the whole spy-gate ordeal, what has he done for this organization and the fans thus far in his tenure? He's lied to us, the fans not once but several times. He's made us the laughing stock of the league (while his supporters claim that we were such before he came, though I beg to differ). The only bright spots to a horrific first year are traded (Marshall) whether you like him or not, he was a big part of any offensive success last year and the other (Nolan) decided to leave, I wonder why? He helped in the firing of the one gentleman that had proven to be solid at drafting so he could be replaced with a yes-man in Xanders. That's not including questionable trades and drafts across the board, questionable production and a horrid record that is shameful enough. So how far does he have to go...would we tolerate the same from a player who made a mass amount of mistakes? Not a F'n chance!

Yes, and he was completely wrong on Marshall and it was a silly line of reasoning. Lloyd is elite, and Marshall is junk, because Lloyd had one great season in a forgettable career, and Marshall is in the record books to start his career.

If trading Cutler and Marshall are firing offenses, then management shouldn't have let him do it. Since they did, then I don't see how that should be the basis of showing him the door.

Bowlen/Ellis signed off on tearing down the roster, and starting from scratch. I doubt they are naive enough to think that rebuild would happen in two offseasons.

If he gets fired soon (before end of season), it will likely be because of the embarrassment factor and fan outrage.

[Slick]

If he wasn't also our GM, I would maybe be okay for another year. But this jackass also makes roster decisions.

Also, we watched Shanahan go through 5 defensive coordinators in 8 seasons. Josh is already on his second, and neither one of them give these coaches the tools they need to be successful.

[BeefStew25]

Also, we watched Shanahan go through 5 defensive coordinators in 8 seasons. Josh is already on his second, and neither one of them give these coaches the tools they need to be successful.

None. We need Glenn Cadrez.

[GEM]

Another gay youtube.

We need a hero...

OBwS66EBUcY

[NightTrainLayne]

Tned, you're not alone.

There's not much going for any argument to keep him. I can't disagree with much of the criticism McD has rightly earned. It might very well be a mistake to keep him around any longer, but one of the worst mistakes an organization can make is giving up on a chosen leader too quickly in the midst of their changes. That mistake is out-shined primarily the mistake of holding onto someone too long. So it's a balancing act.

I think that it is still too early to give up on McDaniels. I think he actually has the makings of a great NFL HC. Problem is, he is simply too young and without the necessary experience. .. however he seems to be learning from his mistakes. His first draft was horrid, but draft #2 was a huge improvement. Our record doesn't show any improvement this season, but our offense is much more dynamic now that we have all the pieces relatively healthy, and Orton's improvement has been extraordinary.

I think that if we give McD another year to "figure it out" we'll be making a better decision either way. You've got to take the emotion out of the decision, and emotions are high right now.

To drive that emotion point home, I have a feeling that the next time we get close to the summit, we'll look back, and the Third Quarter of the game against the Rams Nov. 28, 2010 just a day after the video allegations came out will be the lowest point of the valley behind us. The Broncos started the uphill climb in that Fourth Quarter imo. We've got one hell of a climb in front of us no matter who's at the helm.

[BeefStew25]

NTL I want to punch you right now.

[Tned]

Another gay youtube.



Yea, kind of like Cleveland even in a losing season is rallying around Hillis.

Right now, Broncos fans need SOMETHING positive to focus on, rally behind. In the absense of anything postive, we will focus on negative.

We aren't going to make the playoffs, we aren't going to have a winning record this season, shit, we may not win another game (I think we will).

Still, we need to get focused on something postive. so yes, we need a hero, or something good.

This franchise, and fan base, has taken a lot of body blows in the last 4-5 years.

[BeefStew25]

I think Bey Bey's mom gets out of prison soon.

[Tned]

Tned, you're not alone.

There's not much going for any argument to keep him. I can't disagree with much of the criticism McD has rightly earned. It might very well be a mistake to keep him around any longer, but one of the worst mistakes an organization can make is giving up on a chosen leader too quickly in the midst of their changes. That mistake is out-shined primarily the mistake of holding onto someone too long. So it's a balancing act.

I think that it is still too early to give up on McDaniels. I think he actually has the makings of a great NFL HC. Problem is, he is simply too young and without the necessary experience. .. however he seems to be learning from his mistakes. His first draft was horrid, but draft #2 was a huge improvement. Our record doesn't show any improvement this season, but our offense is much more dynamic now that we have all the pieces relatively healthy, and Orton's improvement has been extraordinary.

I think that if we give McD another year to "figure it out" we'll be making a better decision either way. You've got to take the emotion out of the decision, and emotions are high right now.

To drive that emotion point home, I have a feeling that the next time we get close to the summit, we'll look back, and the Third Quarter of the game against the Rams Nov. 28, 2010 just a day after the video allegations came out will be the lowest point of the valley behind us. The Broncos started the uphill climb in that Fourth Quarter imo. We've got one hell of a climb in front of us no matter who's at the helm.

I don't use it often, but I'm going to pull out the....

Great post :salute:

[Krugan]

I think the way the Chiefs punched the seahawks today is just a sign of whats to come.

The bottom of this barrel hasnt been touched yet, imho.

[frauschieze]

One of the hardest decisions in business is knowing when to cut bait. Many people often look at the amount of time and money already spent as justification to continue on a project. This is a complete mistake. Those sunk costs are gone. The amount of money guaranteed to McDaniels is a done deal and should not be a consideration in whether or not he stays. Shanahan's money owed him can't be changed either so that should not be a consideration either. The money is gone.

The same goes for the amount of time already spent, the personnel moves already made, what talent is currently on the team. We can't change those so they are a non factor.

So when you eliminate the past decisions made and look to the future, the question is what is it that we (Bowlen) wants? To save money? To win? At what cost? We can't answer those questions.

But to those who say there is no upside to firing McDaniels now, you may be right. But there is also no upside in keeping him to the end of the year either.

I have NEVER seen offseasons as tumultuous and drama filled as the past two. It was a nightmarish mess. This season has been nothing but MORE drama. That is not a good environment for a business in which the strength of a team is so important.

Regardless of if McDaniels is the root cause of the drama or not, the buck stops with him. He is the head coach and de facto general manager. Everything is ultimately his responsibility. He is responsible for the circus like atmosphere which surrounds Mile High and Dove Valley.

And for that reason, I believe continuing with the McDaniels "project" is a mistake without drastic changes. Leaving things as status quo is throwing good money after bad and simply bad for business. We have nothing to gain from leaving him in place because the problems are not primarily X's and O's. It's player management, it's personnel decisions, it's relationship management, it's character. Those things will not get better leaving things as they are.

[spikerman]

I think the way the Chiefs punched the seahawks today is just a sign of whats to come.

The bottom of this barrel hasnt been touched yet, imho.

Yeah... I think next week could get VERY ugly. Luckily I'll be officiating a semi-pro football game so I won't get to watch it live. I'm going to record it, but if I hear the score before I get a chance to watch it and it turns out like I think, I may just delete it.

[sneakers]

I don't care because I don't really have any say...just got to hope he gets his shit together so we can start winning until he is replaced.

[NightTrainLayne]

NTL I want to punch you right now.

Donkey Punch? :elefant:

[Davii]

Ok, I didn't think this would ever be the case, but I find myself being one of only a handful of poeple not calling for McDaniels to be fired. Is that really the case, or are the rest of you just silent?

Now, I do think all you ****s that called me a McDaniels hater should also post your "Oops, I guess you really did just take issue with some of his player moves", but that's an aside.

Really folks, there is zero upside in firing McDaniels right now. Surely I'm not the only person that sees that.

Help me out, convince me I haven't fallen into some alternate universe where everyone has jumped on the fire McDaniels bandwagon.

Like you TNed, I will not call for his firing at this time. There would be absolutely no benefit to the organization if that were to happen.

That doesn't mean that he doesn't deserve to lose his job, he almost certainly does, but canning him at this point would do more harm to the Broncos than good.

[Davii]

I get the bringing up of the DC...but has it been addressed since? Has the defense been addressed (seriously) since? Nope. Instead he went to work on an offense that wasn't really broken and ignored a defense that has been shattered for well over a decade. Bravo Napoleon!!

Agreed. The amusing part in that to me is that if we are to believe the reports of the coaching search, he was hired specifically because he wowed the coach search team by talking entirely about how he would fix Denver's D.

[Northman]

Yes Tned, your a total Noob and knob and way off your rocker. But i accept you for who you are even with those faults. :)

[Day1BroncoFan]

Is McD in there with you yet Tned?

[Tned]

One of the hardest decisions in business is knowing when to cut bait. Many people often look at the amount of time and money already spent as justification to continue on a project. This is a complete mistake. Those sunk costs are gone. The amount of money guaranteed to McDaniels is a done deal and should not be a consideration in whether or not he stays. Shanahan's money owed him can't be changed either so that should not be a consideration either. The money is gone.

The same goes for the amount of time already spent, the personnel moves already made, what talent is currently on the team. We can't change those so they are a non factor.

So when you eliminate the past decisions made and look to the future, the question is what is it that we (Bowlen) wants? To save money? To win? At what cost? We can't answer those questions.

But to those who say there is no upside to firing McDaniels now, you may be right. But there is also no upside in keeping him to the end of the year either.

I have NEVER seen offseasons as tumultuous and drama filled as the past two. It was a nightmarish mess. This season has been nothing but MORE drama. That is not a good environment for a business in which the strength of a team is so important.

Regardless of if McDaniels is the root cause of the drama or not, the buck stops with him. He is the head coach and de facto general manager. Everything is ultimately his responsibility. He is responsible for the circus like atmosphere which surrounds Mile High and Dove Valley.

And for that reason, I believe continuing with the McDaniels "project" is a mistake without drastic changes. Leaving things as status quo is throwing good money after bad and simply bad for business. We have nothing to gain from leaving him in place because the problems are not primarily X's and O's. It's player management, it's personnel decisions, it's relationship management, it's character. Those things will not get better leaving things as they are.

I would simply counter with the fact that while most of us Broncos fans have never seen these tumultuous times, it's simply because we have been among the most fortunate in the league, at least under Bowlen's ownership. Virtually every other team has gone though similar times. Yes, some without the drama, some with more (Spygate II aside), but the fact is that for most of us Broncos fans we are going through our first true rebuilding period.

Many fans argued back and forth whether or not 2006 was a 'rebuilding' year, but that was asinine to even think it was rebuilding. Like him or hate him, Shanahan managed to rebuild rosters on the fly, without losing seasons. Something almost no other coach has done successfully. The downside is that he managed to keep us competitive, but 'just barely' competitive.

Now, we are experiencing what so many other teams experience 2-5 years after a SB win (even more so if they go back to back), a major crash and rebuild.

[Tned]

Is McD in there with you yet Tned?

No, but he did promise to make up any loss in ad revenue by single handedly making half the Broncos fans give up on the team, and as a result the forums....

I thought that was pretty cool of him. I get to keep my Jaguar now.

[turftoad]

Tned, I think you're right, you are in the Twighlight Zone. :listen:

[frauschieze]

I would simply counter with the fact that while most of us Broncos fans have never seen these tumultuous times, it's simply because we have been among the most fortunate in the league, at least under Bowlen's ownership. Virtually every other team has gone though similar times. Yes, some without the drama, some with more (Spygate II aside), but the fact is that for most of us Broncos fans we are going through our first true rebuilding period.

Many fans argued back and forth whether or not 2006 was a 'rebuilding' year, but that was asinine to even think it was rebuilding. Like him or hate him, Shanahan managed to rebuild rosters on the fly, without losing seasons. Something almost no other coach has done successfully. The downside is that he managed to keep us competitive, but 'just barely' competitive.

Now, we are experiencing what so many other teams experience 2-5 years after a SB win (even more so if they go back to back), a major crash and rebuild.

If this was simply rebuilding then I would be inclined to agree. But if a foundation is poured wrong or built on sand, then you can rebuild all you want; the house isn't going to stand.

The status quo is not going to rebuild this franchise. It's not primarily an X's and O's problem. It's not primarily a lack of talent problem. Those are things are what rebuilding fixes. We've got bigger issues that will prevent us from truly rebuilding.

[BeefStew25]

When I see a mature adult like Gene Smith coaching, I get sad.

[Medford Bronco]

There's no upside in keeping him. This year is already lost, and if McDaniels is allowed to botch yet another draft, he's going to set us back about another 3 years in addition to how long he's already set us back.

I do agree, his drafting is what is worse than is coaching.

[cardoso]

Ok, I didn't think this would ever be the case, but I find myself being one of only a handful of poeple not calling for McDaniels to be fired. Is that really the case, or are the rest of you just silent?

Now, I do think all you ****s that called me a McDaniels hater should also post your "Oops, I guess you really did just take issue with some of his player moves", but that's an aside.

Really folks, there is zero upside in firing McDaniels right now. Surely I'm not the only person that sees that.

Help me out, convince me I haven't fallen into some alternate universe where everyone has jumped on the fire McDaniels bandwagon.

dude when you have someone in a position that has shown 100% without a reasonable doubt that he is not capable of holding a position than every day you let him keep him, you just put your organization back further. He needs to be removed! Whats the point in keeping him? What has he done to warrant his position? This was A HUGE MISTAKE by the broncos and they need to accept it, cut ties and move on. They need to bring in someone more capable than mcdumbass to fix this.

you don't fix problems by having the same mentality when you created them.

[Medford Bronco]

I would simply counter with the fact that while most of us Broncos fans have never seen these tumultuous times, it's simply because we have been among the most fortunate in the league, at least under Bowlen's ownership. Virtually every other team has gone though similar times. Yes, some without the drama, some with more (Spygate II aside), but the fact is that for most of us Broncos fans we are going through our first true rebuilding period.

Many fans argued back and forth whether or not 2006 was a 'rebuilding' year, but that was asinine to even think it was rebuilding. Like him or hate him, Shanahan managed to rebuild rosters on the fly, without losing seasons. Something almost no other coach has done successfully. The downside is that he managed to keep us competitive, but 'just barely' competitive.

Now, we are experiencing what so many other teams experience 2-5 years after a SB win (even more so if they go back to back), a major crash and rebuild.

Beicheck has done that as well. One of the few who can rebuild and not go in the toilet.

Even Pitt has had an occasional down year. That is how they got Ben

[Northman]

All i know is Jason Garrett is 2-1 since taking over for Bum Jr. and Leslie Frazier is 1-0 since taking over for childress. This myth that we couldnt at the very least play better and more disciplined football is crazy when i see teams playing better under interim coaches right now. Do i think anyone on this staff is a longterm solution? No, but keeping McD who obviously has serious character flaws and not improving just the basics of football which has plagued this team for the last 5 years needs to go. I have no doubt about that.

[cardoso]

Now, we are experiencing what so many other teams experience 2-5 years after a SB win (even more so if they go back to back), a major crash and rebuild.

what's the most important house of building anything? a team, a car, a house, etc etc........???

THE FOUNDATION! without a solid foundation you have nothing! You can try to build whatever you want b ut without a solid foundation it will always crash! Mcdaniels is a failure and his constant experiment with trades, coaches, and draft pics have been a disaster! he even hired his brother who's previous experience was a damn high school coach. You'd be a fool to build a house on a weak foundation, especially when that same foundation has already collapsed on you once.

[atwater27]

Ok, I didn't think this would ever be the case, but I find myself being one of only a handful of poeple not calling for McDaniels to be fired. Is that really the case, or are the rest of you just silent?

Now, I do think all you ****s that called me a McDaniels hater should also post your "Oops, I guess you really did just take issue with some of his player moves", but that's an aside.

Really folks, there is zero upside in firing McDaniels right now. Surely I'm not the only person that sees that.

Help me out, convince me I haven't fallen into some alternate universe where everyone has jumped on the fire McDaniels bandwagon.

Dude... we lost to the Rams. The Rams!!!

And we got destroyed by the Raiders.... AT HOME!!!

And..... Peyton Hillis!!!

Need I say more?

[Tned]

If this was simply rebuilding then I would be inclined to agree. But if a foundation is poured wrong or built on sand, then you can rebuild all you want; the house isn't going to stand.

The status quo is not going to rebuild this franchise. It's not primarily an X's and O's problem. It's not primarily a lack of talent problem. Those are things are what rebuilding fixes. We've got bigger issues that will prevent us from truly rebuilding.

Remember, I've been one of the most outspoken critics of his personnel moves (actual moves and handling of players). However, in my mind it all depends on whether or not Bowlen/Ellis buy into his plan. If the moves that were made are part of a larger plan they signed off on, then you stay the course.

If he gets fired soon, as in before the season, I think it's purely the embarrassment factor from this camera thing.

[Tned]

Dude... we lost to the Rams. The Rams!!!

And we got destroyed by the Raiders.... AT HOME!!!

And..... Peyton Hillis!!!

Need I say more?

Why do you guys keep pulling the Hillis card with me, you know I have a man crush on The Beast. That's just dirty pool.... :tsk:

Seriously, he has made a LOT of mistakes, but for anyone not high on the koolaid, it was clear from almost day one that he was young, cocky and had a huge ego, and was going to make a LOT of mistakes. Even Mr. Bowlen said publicly that he made rookie mistakes in his early months and the first draft.

It is what it is. The question is whether or he's learned enough on the job in the last 18 months, to go with what appears to be a pretty bright football mind, to be capable of finishing the rebuilding process after he blew the team up.

I honestly don't know if he can. I don't have any belief he can. All I'm saying is that if Mr. Bowlen/Ellis believe that he's executing a plan that will bring us out stronger on the other side, then they shouldn't fire him to appease the fans.

There is no upside to firing him right now, except for fallout/embarrassment from Spygate II.

So, if he makes it past the next week or two, then I give him a 70/30 chance of not being fired after the season, but a lot will depend on how the season finishes.

[jhildebrand]

Now, we are experiencing what so many other teams experience 2-5 years after a SB win (even more so if they go back to back), a major crash and rebuild.

The only problem with that is that assumes we are truly rebuilding. It is hard to argue this team is truly rebuilding with exception to the O line. More of the action taken by the team thus far speaks against rebuilding.

Blowing 3 valuable picks on a project QB is something a SB winning or contending team does with its late first pick let alone three.

Blowing a 4th on a castoff, injured RB from your old watering well doesn't speak to rebuilding.

Fielding a D with 9 of 11 starters most of which from FA doesn't speak to rebuilding.

Blowing picks on Alphonso and Quinn doesn't look like a rebuilding team to me!

Rebuilding teams value and hoard picks, use them, and play those players early on.

[jhildebrand]

By the way Brian Cabral says :hi:

[BroncoStud]

When they showed a list of how many Defensive Coordinators we have had over the past decade, I started to realize that head coach was the least of our problems. The last thing we need right now is another shakeup, and we will know after the dust settles NEXT season what kind of team/coach we have. I told myself when Shanny was fired that we probably wouldn't be ready for the playoffs for a good 2-4 seasons, and that was solidified when Cutler left.

I totally agree, there is zero upside to firing McD right now except to feel better and get rid of the "problem". The problem has been and continues to be turmoil and turnover. John Lynch touched on this in that we seemed to be set on Offense, then losing key players made us refocus our drafting on offense instead of defense. If we can shore up the defense through FA and the Draft and maybe get a good GM, I have absolutely no problem with McDaniels because I think he is a great offensive mind in many ways. But we need healthy players on Defense and a consistent D coordinator in order to start gelling.

If we pull the trigger now, we are definitely starting all over for another 2-3 seasons. I'm sticking to my initial gut instinct back in 2009 when all the changes started coming down that we won't be near ready for a playoff push until 2012 at the earliest. But we HAVE to show major improvement next year or it could get uglier really fast. We start out 2-6 again next year, I have absolutely no problem cutting our ties with McD and forcing the rebuild a little earlier.

McDaniels IS the GM... That's the problem. This isn't a Pioli/Haley deal... This is a McDaniels/McDaniels/Xander deal. I thought Bowlen fired Shanahan because he wanted a GM/Coach situation? McDaniels has as much or more power than Shanahan did.

[Tned]

The only problem with that is that assumes we are truly rebuilding. It is hard to argue this team is truly rebuilding with exception to the O line. More of the action taken by the team thus far speaks against rebuilding.

Blowing 3 valuable picks on a project QB is something a SB winning or contending team does with its late first pick let alone three.

Blowing a 4th on a castoff, injured RB from your old watering well doesn't speak to rebuilding.

Fielding a D with 9 of 11 starters most of which from FA doesn't speak to rebuilding.

Blowing picks on Alphonso and Quinn doesn't look like a rebuilding team to me!

Rebuilding teams value and hoard picks, use them, and play those players early on.

I agree with most of your points here, except for blowing three picks on a project QB.

He moved back in the draft to pickup picks in order to use on Tebow. So, I don't agree with people that ignore the first half of the first round, when he moved back, and only say, "he used x picks to pick Tebow".

The fact is that when you look at the number of picks we had going in to the draft, and then the picks we used to draft players, you could just as easily say he used a 2nd round pick to get Tebow, because going by memory, what it washed out to was a 2nd round pick and some "loss" in other rounds, like moving back in the third, or something like that.

[Ravage!!!]

I think we've seen plenty of reasons to get rid of him, even from those that want to see him stay.

However, I haven't seen a reason to KEEP him other than he's the best option "right now." What has he done, since being HC, that would warrant keeping his job? anything? What is ONE area that this team is better at than before?

[Ravage!!!]

I agree with most of your points here, except for blowing three picks on a project QB.

He moved back in the draft to pickup picks in order to use on Tebow. So, I don't agree with people that ignore the first half of the first round, when he moved back, and only say, "he used x picks to pick Tebow".

The fact is that when you look at the number of picks we had going in to the draft, and then the picks we used to draft players, you could just as easily say he used a 2nd round pick to get Tebow, because going by memory, what it washed out to was a 2nd round pick and some "loss" in other rounds, like moving back in the third, or something like that.

If you earn 3 dollars, and you then turn around and spend three dollars... you still spent 3 dollars. We could have moved around, acquired picks, and used those picks on more players at positions of need. Doesn't matter that we acquired picks early, and then used those picks for Tebow....because we STILL used three picks to get Tebow.

[WARHORSE]

Ok, I didn't think this would ever be the case, but I find myself being one of only a handful of poeple not calling for McDaniels to be fired. Is that really the case, or are the rest of you just silent?

Now, I do think all you ****s that called me a McDaniels hater should also post your "Oops, I guess you really did just take issue with some of his player moves", but that's an aside.

Really folks, there is zero upside in firing McDaniels right now. Surely I'm not the only person that sees that.

Help me out, convince me I haven't fallen into some alternate universe where everyone has jumped on the fire McDaniels bandwagon.



I dont think we should fire him either.

[Tned]

If you earn 3 dollars, and you then turn around and spend three dollars... you still spent 3 dollars. We could have moved around, acquired picks, and used those picks on more players at positions of need. Doesn't matter that we acquired picks early, and then used those picks for Tebow....because we STILL used three picks to get Tebow.

That's broken logic used only to prove the point that you think it was a bad move.

Now, if you want to say he could have stuck with his original first round pick and picked a better player, fine, but based on your logic, then no team should ever stick with their first round draft position, because they 'could' move back and get picks to use on "more" players.

The fact is that he told Ed Werder before the round started that he was going to move back and pick DT and Tebow. He moved back multiple times, to get extra picks so he could draft both players.

I'm sorry, while I have been one of the most outspoken critics of MANY of McDaniels draft and player moves, I just can't go along with this one, because it's warping the truth to reach a predetermined goal of criticizing him.

[Ravage!!!]

That's broken logic used only to prove the point that you think it was a bad move.

Now, if you want to say he could have stuck with his original first round pick and picked a better player, fine, but based on your logic, then no team should ever stick with their first round draft position, because they 'could' move back and get picks to use on "more" players.

The fact is that he told Ed Werder before the round started that he was going to move back and pick DT and Tebow. He moved back multiple times, to get extra picks so he could draft both players.

I'm sorry, while I have been one of the most outspoken critics of MANY of McDaniels draft and player moves, I just can't go along with this one, because it's warping the truth to reach a predetermined goal of criticizing him.

Its not warping the truth.

This team was (and still is) in need of MANY players. I, Personally, don't care how we acquired the picks... but we were able to acquire more picks in one of the deepest drafts in the last decade, and we chose to use a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th to get a first, then spent the 1st on Tebow. If his goal was to get Tebow.. then he proved to go after the ONE player we didn't need, and spent a lot of picks to get him when he COULD have very easily acquired the same picks,and gotten more players in those rounds.

Doesn't matter how he earned the cash... he STILL spent the cash. If you earn money, by working overtime, with the intent of buying a new car.. that money isn't spent UNTIL you buy the car. Until then, that money is in your hand with your choice as to what to do with it.

We chose to use those picks on a project QB.

[dogfish]

Really folks, there is zero upside in firing McDaniels right now. Surely I'm not the only person that sees that.

Help me out, convince me I haven't fallen into some alternate universe where everyone has jumped on the fire McDaniels bandwagon.

okay. . . by "right now," do you mean tomorrow morning, or does that time period stretch up to next february?

[Ravage!!!]

okay. . . by "right now," do you mean tomorrow morning, or does that time period stretch up to next february?

wait.. February? Doesn't our last game end on January 2nd?

[dogfish]

wait.. February? Doesn't our last game end on January 2nd?

sorry, technicality. . .

[Ravage!!!]

sorry, technicality. . .

Either way... I agree that its useless to fire him now.. OTHER than to make the fans happy. There isn't anyone on the roster that could take over the coaching job, anyway.

[Tned]

okay. . . by "right now," do you mean tomorrow morning, or does that time period stretch up to next february?

Before the end of the season. Spygate embarrassment/issues aside (if as Glazer indicated there is more there), there is no reason to fire him before the end of the season.

That's what I mean by right away.

[Tned]

wait.. February? Doesn't our last game end on January 2nd?

Dog knows we are still mathematically alive for a trip to Dallas and SB win. He's not giving up on the dream until the clock strikes zero!! ;)

[TXBRONC]

Here is why there is zero upside in firing him today.

Broncos are not getting in the playoffs, so it isn't like a "boost" of energy from an interim coach will turn things around and get them in the playoffs.

So, what else could be the positive of firing him immediately? None that would be substantial or lasting.

On the other hand, if they let him finish out the year, it's possible that the plan starts to come together. Maybe he plays Tebow to see what he has. Maybe with Ayers healthy, the defense starts to gel again, play like it did against the Jets and other early games.

All I'm saying is that while I'm not going to sit here and say I believe McDaniels can turn things around, because I'm not sure I do, I can say that there is upside in at least letting him finish the year and no upside in immediately firing him --- other than appeasing the fans.

I understand that if Bowlen were to get rid of McDaniels right now it wont save the season. Moves like that are not done to save seasons. The Cowboys and the Vikings have made moves already is going to change ultimate outcome of this season? No it wont but moves were made because the management of each team thought the change was in the best interest of each team going forward. Before you say it I know there are some differences nevertheless one common thread in all three instances is that the post season is not a factor so now it just a matter of draft position.

I don't think it matter either way if gets fired now or later. If I'm understanding you right you're if he's going be fired it should come until the season is over that would be fine with me. I don't look it like it like Bowlen needs to appease me I look at from the stand point that McDaniels is failing and I don't see it getting any better. At the end of day I'll still be fan and root for the Broncos irregardless of what Bowlen decides to do with McDaniels.

I'm not trying to bait you but what could possibly give you the hope that McDaniels is going let Tebow start with season now being officially lost? I thought he might a couple of weeks age but with one blowout and two complete ass kickings at the hands of division rivals I'm now convinced he wont start Tebow no matter what happens. As far as Ayers is concerned I don't think him being back is going change much of anything even if starts playing well.

[TXBRONC]

To change analogies - Union General John Pope, in the American Civil War. Built up a big reputation in the Mississippi Valley, and was brought East by Lincoln to replace the dithering McClellan against Lee. Pope was a big talker. Surrounded himself with Yes-Men, insulted the troops he was brought in to lead by telling them they and their leaders were losers, and he was going to instill the "winning attitude." Lots of tough-guy posing. Lots of stories about his fighhtiong prowess in the press.

And he was taken to the woodshed for a total thrashing by Lee and co. at 2nd Bull Run. It was maybe the worst bit of generalling in a War with plenty of examples of it. Lee and Longstreet made a complete fool of the man. What was even worse, General Fitzjohn Porter watched the flanking movement that was about to destroy Pope's Army, gave Pope regular updates on its progress, and was disregarded because he was a "McClellan Man." He had a losers attitude or something. After the battle, Pope's main focus became blaming everything on Porter in the press. Porter was court martialled and driven from the Army. Pope was sent to Minnesiota to fight Indians for the rest of the War. An act of congress 20 years late finally cleared Porter's name.

Lincoln was smart enough not to let Pope command in a serious situation again. He made a mistake, and fixed it fast. Is Bowlen?

And what did Lincoln do to fix the situation? He brought in Grant.

[Dreadnought]

And what did Lincoln do to fix the situation? He brought in Grant.

Not at first...McClellan got another shot, getting a Draw+ at Antietam. Then he got fired in favor of the imbecile Ambrose Burnside (Think Mike Tice) who promptly got blown out at Fredericksburg. Then came drunken loudmouth "Fighting Joe" Hooker, who got his ass handed to him at Chancellorsville. Sometimes you have to work through a few idiots and fakes before you find The Guy. Doesn't mean you keep an idiot or a fake around in hopes that they improve :D

[BigDaddyBronco]

I am on board with you Tned. I'm not happy with the direction the team is going and there are some glaring holes that need to be fixed. That being said, I think if we switch coaches now we will have sub .500 seasons for another 3 years.

Listening to Lynch yesterday had me nodding, he said most of the things I have felt for several years now. On defense, we need to pick a scheme and stick with it and draft for it. Since Coyer we have had a revolving door of DC's and schemes. Even Nolan and Martindale have slightly different schemes. This has made drafting a crapshoot and has kept our defense near the bottom of the pack for years. Changing this again, will continue the trend.

On offense we have a spread offense that has a set of requirements for all the positions. If we had a radical change in offensive schemes, how many of the players would be fit for the new offense? This gets back to the draft. If the offense isn't set for a new scheme and takes several draft picks to change, then they are fighting the defense for these draft picks. Even if you do well in the draft, only about half the picks pan out, so if you are changing both schemes it takes several years to get the right players in place.

I think McDaniels is close with the offense. They need to run the ball better and more, the OLine is getting good experience and should get better, the WR's are solid, QB's have depth. The big holes on offense are depth on the OLine, TE's, and an additional running threat. After that it's just game planning and on the field coaching (I'm not sure if I'm sold on that with McDaniels).

On the defense we have pretty good LB's. The DLine needs to be rebuilt and the secondary is old and needs help. A good draft could get a couple of young skilled players for the DLine, another CB or S, a backup LB. Throw in a FA safety and figure out what to do with Champ and the defensive personnel are one step closer to being a decent defense. The most glaring need is on pass rush, but it's hard to blitz when the DLine can't stop the run or the secondary can't cover.


So, again my basic position is that a new coach will bring in new systems and it will take an additional 3 years to get on the right track. Does anyone think that a new coach would use McD's offense or wouldn't make changes to the defense? So the new coach would have to be a miracle worker or a genius to come up with a way to use the current players and win while transitioning to a new system. Is everyone ok with 3 more years of 5-11 or 6-10 teams?


Oh wait, I guess Tned ment by the end of the season. Yes, that doesn't make any sense at all unless there is a full revolt in the locker room like in Dallas or in Minn.

[TXBRONC]

I am on board with you Tned. I'm not happy with the direction the team is going and there are some glaring holes that need to be fixed. That being said, I think if we switch coaches now we will have sub .500 seasons for another 3 years.

With all due respect BDB what is to say that keeping McDaniels around wont lead to another three seasons of sub .500 football?

[BigDaddyBronco]

With all due respect BDB what is to say that keeping McDaniels around wont lead to another three seasons of sub .500 football?

I don't know if it will or will not. If we struggle next year (if there is football at all) then I would make the change. I just know that if there was a drastic coaching change, drastic in schemes that is, that we would have several down years before things started to improve. McDaniels got lucky with the 8-8 season last year and it contributed to everyone thinking that we could win this year. I just didn't see it that way.

[Nomad]

With all due respect BDB what is to say that keeping McDaniels around wont lead to another three seasons of sub .500 football?

Well, I guess we'll see how fans handle more adversity!! Mcdaniels isn't going anyway (I won't blink an eye if he does but I'll have to except the fact if he stays), all we can do is hope Bowle/Ellis get McDaniels a real GM or help in finding the right personnel especially on defense because McDaniels is not very good at it!! If nothing is done then, I'll be extremely disappointed in Bowlen!!

[Tned]

I am on board with you Tned. I'm not happy with the direction the team is going and there are some glaring holes that need to be fixed. That being said, I think if we switch coaches now we will have sub .500 seasons for another 3 years.

Listening to Lynch yesterday had me nodding, he said most of the things I have felt for several years now. On defense, we need to pick a scheme and stick with it and draft for it. Since Coyer we have had a revolving door of DC's and schemes. Even Nolan and Martindale have slightly different schemes. This has made drafting a crapshoot and has kept our defense near the bottom of the pack for years. Changing this again, will continue the trend.

On offense we have a spread offense that has a set of requirements for all the positions. If we had a radical change in offensive schemes, how many of the players would be fit for the new offense? This gets back to the draft. If the offense isn't set for a new scheme and takes several draft picks to change, then they are fighting the defense for these draft picks. Even if you do well in the draft, only about half the picks pan out, so if you are changing both schemes it takes several years to get the right players in place.

I think McDaniels is close with the offense. They need to run the ball better and more, the OLine is getting good experience and should get better, the WR's are solid, QB's have depth. The big holes on offense are depth on the OLine, TE's, and an additional running threat. After that it's just game planning and on the field coaching (I'm not sure if I'm sold on that with McDaniels).

On the defense we have pretty good LB's. The DLine needs to be rebuilt and the secondary is old and needs help. A good draft could get a couple of young skilled players for the DLine, another CB or S, a backup LB. Throw in a FA safety and figure out what to do with Champ and the defensive personnel are one step closer to being a decent defense. The most glaring need is on pass rush, but it's hard to blitz when the DLine can't stop the run or the secondary can't cover.


So, again my basic position is that a new coach will bring in new systems and it will take an additional 3 years to get on the right track. Does anyone think that a new coach would use McD's offense or wouldn't make changes to the defense? So the new coach would have to be a miracle worker or a genius to come up with a way to use the current players and win while transitioning to a new system. Is everyone ok with 3 more years of 5-11 or 6-10 teams?


Oh wait, I guess Tned ment by the end of the season. Yes, that doesn't make any sense at all unless there is a full revolt in the locker room like in Dallas or in Minn.

Yep, you highlight a major difference with Minn and Dallas, players were in revolt, especially in Minn where they were going to the press. Plus, in Dallas, Phillips has been "on the bubble" for a couple years now. It really isn't comparable to Denver.

The only wildcard is the embarrassment over the Spygate II incident.

Not all, but many, of the people calling for his head now, were the ones pointing out the severe rash of injures as a contributing factor the first couple weeks. While on the one hand you can say, "every team has them, it's the HC's job to deal with it", on the other hand we can see that now that the O-line is getting healthy, that the running game is improving dramatically.

I don't know that McDaniels is the answer, and I've felt all along the most likely scenario (this goes back to shortly after he was hired) is that he gets fired from Denver this year or next, goes back to being an OC, then gets another HC job and does very well. Along with his football mind, he brought the inexperience and arrogance of youth.

The real question is has he learned enough from his mistakes, to finish the rebuild, which if true, would be far better than starting over with another HC, which odds are (based on NFL history) would be fired in 2-3 years.

[TXBRONC]

I don't know if it will or will not. If we struggle next year (if there is football at all) then I would make the change. I just know that if there was a drastic coaching change, drastic in schemes that is, that we would have several down years before things started to improve. McDaniels got lucky with the 8-8 season last year and it contributed to everyone thinking that we could win this year. I just didn't see it that way.

There is nothing that says that hugh scheme changes would occur if a new coach is hired after this year. When Shanahan took over for Phillips major scheme changes didn't take place. We kept same basic schemes on offense and defense.

Well this coach popped off at the mouth how he had never been on losing team and that he felt could compete right away.

[jhildebrand]

I agree with most of your points here, except for blowing three picks on a project QB.

He moved back in the draft to pickup picks in order to use on Tebow. So, I don't agree with people that ignore the first half of the first round, when he moved back, and only say, "he used x picks to pick Tebow".

The fact is that when you look at the number of picks we had going in to the draft, and then the picks we used to draft players, you could just as easily say he used a 2nd round pick to get Tebow, because going by memory, what it washed out to was a 2nd round pick and some "loss" in other rounds, like moving back in the third, or something like that.

It shouldn't matter how he got those picks. The fact is in McDaniels brain it was a wise idea to not only draft Tebow in the first round (which I have no problem with) but to spend a king's ransom doing it.

You see, McDaniels gets a lot of credit for maneuvering in the draft. I gave him huge props for it as it was deserved.

But to spend what he did on a "project QB" after devoting all of the other resources on the position opens him up to criticism and rightfully so.

McD traded up to get Brandstater just to cut him a year later (again debunking the idea of rebuilding). Went after Chris Simms just to cut him and pay the remainder of his contract. Acquire Brady Quinn at the cost of the running game. For what? Brandstater was a suitable back up. If we know anything about Orton we know he can start 15 to 16 games for us as he has.

This was originally about rebuilding. Again, spending what he did on Tebow, regardless of how he came about the picks, goes against any theory of rebuilding. The teams that draft project QB's do it out of luxury. This team didn't have that luxury. A second, third, and fourth could very well be some nice pieces on D.

[BigDaddyBronco]

Well, I guess we'll see how fans handle more adversity!! Mcdaniels isn't going anyway (I won't blink an eye if he does but I'll have to except the fact if he stays), all we can do is hope Bowle/Ellis get McDaniels a real GM or help in finding the right personnel especially on defense because McDaniels is not very good at it!! If nothing is done then, I'll be extremely disappointed in Bowlen!!
I'm wondering if it's a GM thing or a scouting dept. thing. Seems like the plan was to draft to strengthen parts of the offense and defense.

Yr 1 strengthen up the LB's and secondary - move Doom to OLB and draft Ayers, GET FA's in Hill, Dawkins, and Goodman, draft McBath and A. Smith.

Might have worked if Ayers had been a better pass rusher, A. Smith wasn't a failure, and McBath wasn't always hurt.

Yr 2 strengthen the Dline and work on secondary some more - Bring in Bannan and Williams, draft S. Thompson and Cox.

Shows why you draft DLine early and often as these guys are at the end of their careers and haven't been the answer. Cox and Syd'Quan just need time and experience, but look decent.


Again, I think the plan was ok, they just didn't draft the right people and gave up too much for Alphonso Smith.

[TXBRONC]

It shouldn't matter how he got those picks. The fact is in McDaniels brain it was a wise idea to not only draft Tebow in the first round (which I have no problem with) but to spend a king's ransom doing it.

You see, McDaniels gets a lot of credit for maneuvering in the draft. I gave him huge props for it as it was deserved.

But to spend what he did on a "project QB" after devoting all of the other resources on the position opens him up to criticism and rightfully so.

McD traded up to get Brandstater just to cut him a year later (again debunking the idea of rebuilding). Went after Chris Simms just to cut him and pay the remainder of his contract. Acquire Brady Quinn at the cost of the running game. For what? Brandstater was a suitable back up. If we know anything about Orton we know he can start 15 to 16 games for us as he has.

This was originally about rebuilding. Again, spending what he did on Tebow, regardless of how he came about the picks, goes against any theory of rebuilding. The teams draft project QB's do it out of luxury. This team didn't have that luxury.

Exactly, McDaniels had the picks in hand and make a deliberate choice to use them move up in the draft to pick Tebow. It's not that I mind but fact is those are not spent until you actually make a deal.

[Nomad]

I'm wondering if it's a GM thing or a scouting dept. thing. Seems like the plan was to draft to strengthen parts of the offense and defense.

Yr 1 strengthen up the LB's and secondary - move Doom to OLB and draft Ayers, GET FA's in Hill, Dawkins, and Goodman, draft McBath and A. Smith.

Might have worked if Ayers had been a better pass rusher, A. Smith wasn't a failure, and McBath wasn't always hurt.

Yr 2 strengthen the Dline and work on secondary some more - Bring in Bannan and Williams, draft S. Thompson and Cox.

Shows why you draft DLine early and often as these guys are at the end of their careers and haven't been the answer. Cox and Syd'Quan just need time and experience, but look decent.


Again, I think the plan was ok, they just didn't draft the right people and gave up too much for Alphonso Smith.

I am not a scout or GM and won't pretend to be one here but doesn't the HC/GM have the final say and final evaluation of the draftee or free agency!! If so, then they haven't done a good job IMO!!

[jhildebrand]

The real question is has he learned enough from his mistakes, to finish the rebuild, which if true, would be far better than starting over with another HC, which odds are (based on NFL history) would be fired in 2-3 years.

Good point! His mistakes and transgressions are only growing in frequency and magnitude. The theme of McDaniels tenure here is personality conflict.

Also, CU continued to think Dan Hawkins would turn the corner. He was "right there." They spent 5 years on him and 3 of those were clearly wasted. It was clear there and it is just as clear with the Broncos.

[TXBRONC]

Well, I guess we'll see how fans handle more adversity!! Mcdaniels isn't going anyway (I won't blink an eye if he does but I'll have to except the fact if he stays), all we can do is hope Bowle/Ellis get McDaniels a real GM or help in finding the right personnel especially on defense because McDaniels is not very good at it!! If nothing is done then, I'll be extremely disappointed in Bowlen!!

If their going fire him then chance are they're going demote McDaniels either.

[BigDaddyBronco]

There is nothing that says that hugh scheme changes would occur if a new coach is hired after this year. When Shanahan took over for Phillips major scheme changes didn't take place. We kept same basic schemes on offense and defense.

Well this coach popped off at the mouth how he had never been on losing team and that he felt could compete right away.

I'm not defending McDaniels, I just wonder who is available who runs a spread type offense and likes a 3-4 defense?

Maybe a guy like Gruden could do it, maybe not.

I just think it's likely that a new coach, if he wanted to make major changes, would take 3 years to turn over the roster.

The best bet to win right away would have been for Bowlen to hire Spaggs and had him keep the offensive system and coaches in place and then let him tweek the 4-3 to his style. Bowlen didn't want that and here we are in year 2 of a 3 or 4 year roster turnover project with a totally different system. If you don't see the project through, then you start over again.

[jhildebrand]

I'm wondering if it's a GM thing or a scouting dept. thing. Seems like the plan was to draft to strengthen parts of the offense and defense.

Yr 1 strengthen up the LB's and secondary - move Doom to OLB and draft Ayers, GET FA's in Hill, Dawkins, and Goodman, draft McBath and A. Smith.

Might have worked if Ayers had been a better pass rusher, A. Smith wasn't a failure, and McBath wasn't always hurt.

Yr 2 strengthen the Dline and work on secondary some more - Bring in Bannan and Williams, draft S. Thompson and Cox.

Shows why you draft DLine early and often as these guys are at the end of their careers and haven't been the answer. Cox and Syd'Quan just need time and experience, but look decent.


Again, I think the plan was ok, they just didn't draft the right people and gave up too much for Alphonso Smith.

The problem is the Defense was the achilles heel following the 08 season. Very little was done to correct it. McDaniels seems to believe in building a D the same way Shanahan did-through old vets in free agency.

If the Shanahan legacy was clear on anything it was how NOT to build a D. McDaniels all but continued the same way almost to a T.

[Nomad]

If their going fire him then chance are they're going demote McDaniels either.

So whachya and everybody else gonna do about it!?!?!!

[jhildebrand]

I just think it's likely that a new coach, if he wanted to make major changes, would take 3 years to turn over the roster.


Marty has rebuilt teams worse than ours in two seasons. You make the right hire and it can happen. This team would be much better off if it had those blown picks i.e. the 4th on Maroney etc...

[Tned]

Good point! His mistakes and transgressions are only growing in frequency and magnitude. The theme of McDaniels tenure here is personality conflict.

Also, CU continued to think Dan Hawkins would turn the corner. He was "right there." They spent 5 years on him and 3 of those were clearly wasted. It was clear there and it is just as clear with the Broncos.

Unless it's proven he was behind the filming incident, then I don't agree that his mistakes and transgressions are growing in "frequency and magnitude." Again, I have been one of the most outspoken critics of his player moves and his handling of Marshall in the first TC, but I think with the exception of Hillis (which I can even understand to a degree), his mistakes are decreasing.


Exactly, McDaniels had the picks in hand and make a deliberate choice to use them move up in the draft to pick Tebow. It's not that I mind but fact is those are not spent until you actually make a deal.

Ok, you discount the "concious decision" to move back and acquire those picks for the SOLE purpose of getting Tebow, but tout the "picks in hand" deliberate choice to draft Tebow.

Come on guys, you are simply twisting what happened to fit your pre-disposed opinions of him.

[BigDaddyBronco]

The problem is the Defense was the achilles heel following the 08 season. Very little was done to correct it. McDaniels seems to believe in building a D the same way Shanahan did-through old vets in free agency.

If the Shanahan legacy was clear on anything it was how NOT to build a D. McDaniels all but continued the same way almost to a T.

McDaniels is an offense first type coach. That is who Bowlen hired. He wanted to put his own system in, not use Shanny's. I didn't make the call to hire him, I would have hired a defensive coach and kept as much of the Shanny offense and coaches as possible. Bates, Dennison, and Turner.

It appears Bowlen like young offensive minded coaching. :noidea:

[BigDaddyBronco]

Marty has rebuilt teams worse than ours in two seasons. You make the right hire and it can happen. This team would be much better off if it had those blown picks i.e. the 4th on Maroney etc...
Who did Schottenheimer turn around quickly?

With the Chargers he was 4-12 his first year and they got the 1st pick in the draft who they turned into Phillip Rivers. He also had AJ Smith and Tomlinson. He rebuilt the defense, but it wasn't all Marty.

Who else, the Redskins? Wasn't great in Washington either.

[TXBRONC]

So whachya and everybody else gonna do about it!?!?!!

You trying to pick a fight? :viking:

Seriously I know there is nothing I can do about it.

[Nomad]

You trying to pick a fight? :viking:

Seriously I know there is nothing I can do about it.

No fight here TX:D!

Seriously though, if fans are that disgusted the direction the BRONCOS are going.....they hold the cards!! Stop attending games (home and away), picket/write letters to Dove Valley and let them know your turning off your TV on Sundays, cancel your Sunday Ticket and let them know your reason because you'll do so until Mcdaniels is fired and Dove valley changes their direction, stop buying merchandise!!

With this said, not one person here will do this!! The only way I'd do this is if the BRONCOS move out of Denver!!

[TXBRONC]

Unless it's proven he was behind the filming incident, then I don't agree that his mistakes and transgressions are growing in "frequency and magnitude." Again, I have been one of the most outspoken critics of his player moves and his handling of Marshall in the first TC, but I think with the exception of Hillis (which I can even understand to a degree), his mistakes are decreasing.



Ok, you discount the "concious decision" to move back and acquire those picks for the SOLE purpose of getting Tebow, but tout the "picks in hand" deliberate choice to draft Tebow.

Come on guys, you are simply twisting what happened to fit your pre-disposed opinions of him.

I'm not twisting anything Tned. I understand his plan was use the picks to move up to take Tebow. But it was a choice he had make.

If I have pre-disposed opinion of McDaniels so does everyone else including you.

[Tned]

I'm not twisting anything Tned. I understand his plan was use the picks to move up to take Tebow. But it was a choice he had make.

Yes, and he chose to move back and turn one first round pick into two. That is in essence what he did. Saynig he spent x number of picks, Kings ransom, etc. is hyperbole aimed at distorting the truth/facts.

[TXBRONC]

Yes, and he chose to move back and turn one first round pick into two. That is in essence what he did. Saynig he spent x number of picks, Kings ransom, etc. is hyperbole aimed at distorting the truth/facts.

Why are you getting upset? I'm trying have a nice calm discussioin with you.

How is it hyperbole when fact is he sent the picks.

Btw I have never been critical of the move.

[BroncoStud]

I think it's absurd to say that "firing McDaniels will set this franchise back 3 years..." - WHY? Why couldn't Gruden (or someone like him) come in this offseason, evaluate the draft, evaluate the team, look at all free agents, and then make intelligent moves?

It's mindboggling reading people say that it's McDaniels or bust... Ridiculous, I think keeping a PROBLEM around is only going to lead to more problems and more setbacks.

I was a big McDaniels supporter but it's CRYSTAL CLEAR to me that he is a terrible GM, he is an average AT BEST Head Coach. No one on this board can say that McDaniels always has his team prepared to win. Denver is as unprepared as they are prepared and that is on the coach.

The problem is the GM/Head Coach, both Xanders and McDaniels need to go.

[BigDaddyBronco]

I think it's absurd to say that "firing McDaniels will set this franchise back 3 years..." - WHY? Why couldn't Gruden (or someone like him) come in this offseason, evaluate the draft, evaluate the team, look at all free agents, and then make intelligent moves?

It's mindboggling reading people say that it's McDaniels or bust... Ridiculous, I think keeping a PROBLEM around is only going to lead to more problems and more setbacks.

I was a big McDaniels supporter but it's CRYSTAL CLEAR to me that he is a terrible GM, he is an average AT BEST Head Coach. No one on this board can say that McDaniels always has his team prepared to win. Denver is as unprepared as they are prepared and that is on the coach.

The problem is the GM/Head Coach, both Xanders and McDaniels need to go.

So just removing the head coach and GM and replacing them with Gruden will make us a winning team immediately?

[Nomad]

So just removing the head coach and GM and replacing them with Gruden will make us a winning team immediately?

YES!!:balloons::D

[BigDaddyBronco]

YES!!:balloons::D
Man, it sounds like some of you guys were sitting with Ellis and Bowlen when McDaniels was hired in the first place. :D

[Nomad]

Man, it sounds like some of you guys were sitting with Ellis and Bowlen when McDaniels was hired in the first place. :D

Just trying to be funny!! Not sold on Gruden either!!

[BigDaddyBronco]

Just trying to be funny!! Not sold on Gruden either!!

Just bustin your balls!!! ;)

[pnbronco]

I don't he should be fired. I do think they need to take GM responsibilities away from him and have a experienced GM deal with those hats. I remember that old line that goes something like the more I do the less I'm good at any of it.

[GEM]

I'm wondering if it's a GM thing or a scouting dept. thing. Seems like the plan was to draft to strengthen parts of the offense and defense.

Yr 1 strengthen up the LB's and secondary - move Doom to OLB and draft Ayers, GET FA's in Hill, Dawkins, and Goodman, draft McBath and A. Smith.

Might have worked if Ayers had been a better pass rusher, A. Smith wasn't a failure, and McBath wasn't always hurt.

Yr 2 strengthen the Dline and work on secondary some more - Bring in Bannan and Williams, draft S. Thompson and Cox.

Shows why you draft DLine early and often as these guys are at the end of their careers and haven't been the answer. Cox and Syd'Quan just need time and experience, but look decent.


Again, I think the plan was ok, they just didn't draft the right people and gave up too much for Alphonso Smith.

I was listening to Cecil Lammey on The Ticket on Sunday morning and he said that the guys in the Broncos scouting department are all good guys who are good at what they do. He said the issue is most likely that McDaniels isn't listening to what his scouts are telling him and going more off of character and his own wants.

Dunno how true that is, but it's definitely worth bringing up in the conversation.

Cecil Lammey isn't just a talk show guy. He goes to the combines, the senior days and all of the college-NFL stuff. He sits with NFL team scouts and gets really good information that he reports.

[GEM]

I don't he should be fired. I do think they need to take GM responsibilities away from him and have a experienced GM deal with those hats. I remember that old line that goes something like the more I do the less I'm good at any of it.

I do think he needs to go, but at the very least, if he's not I agree a GM is a necessity. That old line is so true. Jack of all trades, master of none. :lol:

[GEM]

So just removing the head coach and GM and replacing them with Gruden will make us a winning team immediately?

Keeping McD and throwing the same shit at the wall is going to make us win immediately?

[Nomad]

Keeping McD and throwing the same shit at the wall is going to make us win immediately?

It'll be quite stinky !!:D

[Nomad]

I was listening to Cecil Lammey on The Ticket on Sunday morning and he said that the guys in the Broncos scouting department are all good guys who are good at what they do. He said the issue is most likely that McDaniels isn't listening to what his scouts are telling him and going more off of character and his own wants.

Dunno how true that is, but it's definitely worth bringing up in the conversation.

Cecil Lammey isn't just a talk show guy. He goes to the combines, the senior days and all of the college-NFL stuff. He sits with NFL team scouts and gets really good information that he reports.

Solid points GEM!!

[BigDaddyBronco]

I was listening to Cecil Lammey on The Ticket on Sunday morning and he said that the guys in the Broncos scouting department are all good guys who are good at what they do. He said the issue is most likely that McDaniels isn't listening to what his scouts are telling him and going more off of character and his own wants.

Dunno how true that is, but it's definitely worth bringing up in the conversation.

Cecil Lammey isn't just a talk show guy. He goes to the combines, the senior days and all of the college-NFL stuff. He sits with NFL team scouts and gets really good information that he reports.
Could be. Who really knows?

Either way, it would be good for McDaniels to have a real sounding board in an experienced GM. Watching Rex Ryan and Mike Tannenbaum go through the personnel decisions shows the right way of doing things. Rex doesn't have all the power and Mike doesn't either, they work together to develop Ryan's vision.

Who knows how Xanders and McD work together? :noidea:

[Dreadnought]

I was listening to Cecil Lammey on The Ticket on Sunday morning and he said that the guys in the Broncos scouting department are all good guys who are good at what they do. He said the issue is most likely that McDaniels isn't listening to what his scouts are telling him and going more off of character and his own wants.

Dunno how true that is, but it's definitely worth bringing up in the conversation.

Cecil Lammey isn't just a talk show guy. He goes to the combines, the senior days and all of the college-NFL stuff. He sits with NFL team scouts and gets really good information that he reports.

That tracks perfectly with my other (very unfavorable) impressions of him. Its the classic pattern of that style of bad boss, always insisting they are the smartest guy in the room - which of course means when things fail it is necessarily other peoples fault. Poor execution or what have you; the plan was by definition the right one.

[BroncoStud]

So just removing the head coach and GM and replacing them with Gruden will make us a winning team immediately?

It doesn't have to be Gruden, but a smart coach and a promising GM. I'd take a guy like Schottenheimer in a SECOND as a GM in Denver.

[GEM]

Could be. Who really knows?

Either way, it would be good for McDaniels to have a real sounding board in an experienced GM. Watching Rex Ryan and Mike Tannenbaum go through the personnel decisions shows the right way of doing things. Rex doesn't have all the power and Mike doesn't either, they work together to develop Ryan's vision.

Who knows how Xanders and McD work together? :noidea:

Xanders plays with numbers all day and McD makes all the executive decisions. Easy enough. :D


:lol:

[BroncoNut]

I don't know the personalithy of McD, then again i don't see any of his press conferences. But given his age and inexperinces, I would think that he might still have the plasticity to develop into a good coach and his 1st couple years may fade as just a bad memory.

[frauschieze]

Who knows how Xanders and McD work together? :noidea:

Xanders is a rubber stamp who is good at accounting. :D

[BigDaddyBronco]

Keeping McD and throwing the same shit at the wall is going to make us win immediately?
Another good draft, a year of development for the OLine. Who knows? Maybe.

If they fire Xanders and McDaniels it will be another 3 year rebuilding project.

One thing I know, I'll be like Clay and hate the guy the day he is hired so I can celebrate the losing. :D

[GEM]

That tracks perfectly with my other (very unfavorable) impressions of him. Its the classic pattern of that style of bad boss, always insisting they are the smartest guy in the room - which of course means when things fail it is necessarily other peoples fault. Poor execution or what have you; the plan was by definition the right one.

I think you can look no further than the Thomas over Bryant pick to show some truth there. NO ONE had Thomas above Bryant, but Thomas was the character guy. I don't know of a scout in the world that would say character over talent when you are talking Dez Bryant type character and Thomas having the limited experience in a pro style offense. I just don't see a scout saying take Thomas.

[BigDaddyBronco]

Xanders plays with numbers all day and McD makes all the executive decisions. Easy enough. :D


:lol:

That is what it appears to be, but none of us really know.

[BroncoNut]

Another good draft, a year of development for the OLine. Who knows? Maybe.

If they fire Xanders and McDaniels it will be another 3 year rebuilding project.

One thing I know, I'll be like Clay and hate the guy the day he is hired so I can celebrate the losing. :D

see, that's just it. it's a gamble either way. say McD is fired and goes to another organization as a HC and has success. How friggin ironic would that be.

[Northman]

There is nothing that says that hugh scheme changes would occur if a new coach is hired after this year. When Shanahan took over for Phillips major scheme changes didn't take place. We kept same basic schemes on offense and defense.

Well this coach popped off at the mouth how he had never been on losing team and that he felt could compete right away.

In a league where teams can turn it around in just one year the "3 year theory" just doesnt hold water.

[BigDaddyBronco]

That tracks perfectly with my other (very unfavorable) impressions of him. Its the classic pattern of that style of bad boss, always insisting they are the smartest guy in the room - which of course means when things fail it is necessarily other peoples fault. Poor execution or what have you; the plan was by definition the right one.
Sounds like you have McDaniels figured out. Ever met him?

[Mike]

Could be. Who really knows?

Either way, it would be good for McDaniels to have a real sounding board in an experienced GM. Watching Rex Ryan and Mike Tannenbaum go through the personnel decisions shows the right way of doing things. Rex doesn't have all the power and Mike doesn't either, they work together to develop Ryan's vision.

Who knows how Xanders and McD work together? :noidea:

I would be more likely to go a bit easier on McD if I saw signs of improvement on the field. But that isn't the case. We see character conflicts, bad playcalling, bad execution, bad discipline. All are reflections of the coach.

You are right that we don't see what goes on behind the scene. What we can see is the product that is put on the field. And looking back at the last 20 games (which is a good sample), the product on the field is garbage...so one way or another something has to be addressed.

[GEM]

Sounds like you have McDaniels figured out. Ever met him?

Not to be rude....but have you? You believe whatever he spews when it's been shown he's lied before, but just take him at his word....it carries a lot of weight.

[Dreadnought]

Sounds like you have McDaniels figured out. Ever met him?

In other incarnations and other places, BDB - far too often. I loathe the type personally :D.

[Northman]

I don't know the personalithy of McD, then again i don't see any of his press conferences. But given his age and inexperinces, I would think that he might still have the plasticity to develop into a good coach and his 1st couple years may fade as just a bad memory.

Yet still, i look at Spags and Morris and think to myself "why couldnt we have gotten them and already been improving". Bowlen never wanted to rebuild and never stated so yet if McD is a project at HC why take the risk when other coaches are already doing better? Nah, i think you see what you get when it comes to McDaniels unfortuantely. I think people are just simply wishing and hoping he is the white knight because of serious denial.

[BigDaddyBronco]

I would be more likely to go a bit easier on McD if I saw signs of improvement on the field. But that isn't the case. We see character conflicts, bad playcalling, bad execution, bad discipline. All are reflections of the coach.

You are right that we don't see what goes on behind the scene. What we can see is the product that is put on the field. And looking back at the last 20 games (which is a good sample), the product on the field is garbage.
I can't disagree with the bad playcalling. Execution is on the players though. What character conflicts on the field? Bad penalties?

Look, I'm all for firing him if he can't coach, and definately on board for stripping any GM duties he has, but I still can't place all the blame on him for the players not making plays. Seems that in several games we were just a few inches away or a penalty or a catch in a double team away from winning.

[BroncoNut]

In other incarnations and other places, BDB - far too often. I loathe the type personally :D.

there are some patterns associated with him that suggest that he is that type, but you just can' be for certain. People can an do change too. I'm not the same person I was 10 years ago for example. Are you?

[BigDaddyBronco]

Not to be rude....but have you? You believe whatever he spews when it's been shown he's lied before, but just take him at his word....it carries a lot of weight.
No I haven't, and no I don't believe everything that comes out of his mouth. But, it's pretty convenient to make one guy the scapegoat for all the problems this franchise has. Maybe McDaniels is Idi Amin, I don't know, but painting him as the bogeyman is a stretch.

[GEM]

I can't disagree with the bad playcalling. Execution is on the players though. What character conflicts on the field? Bad penalties?

Look, I'm all for firing him if he can't coach, and definately on board for stripping any GM duties he has, but I still can't place all the blame on him for the players not making plays. Seems that in several games we were just a few inches away or a penalty or a catch in a double team away from winning.

If we had talented players I would put it on execution. To be honest, our team just isn't that talented or are older to the point that they can't execute like they used to. That is on the coach. When he drove all the offensive talent out of town, he had draft picks to replace the talent. He didn't. That does lie in his hands. They just aren't that talented, but they have some great character. :shrugs:

[Mike]

I can't disagree with the bad playcalling. Execution is on the players though. What character conflicts on the field? Bad penalties?

Look, I'm all for firing him if he can't coach, and definately on board for stripping any GM duties he has, but I still can't place all the blame on him for the players not making plays. Seems that in several games we were just a few inches away or a penalty or a catch in a double team away from winning.

Execution comes from getting players ready to play and getting in their ass when they aren't. We see the same **** product every week...so is it the players or the coaches not getting the players ready?

Every game we see examples of dumb penalties and mental lapses. Bad penalties happen to every team, but they occur all too frequently in Denver (delay of games, false starts, not enough players on the field, etc).

Character conflicts was more to the issues with coaches, players no longer on the team...and now with other coaches around the league.

[BroncoNut]

Yet still, i look at Spags and Morris and think to myself "why couldnt we have gotten them and already been improving". Bowlen never wanted to rebuild and never stated so yet if McD is a project at HC why take the risk when other coaches are already doing better? Nah, i think you see what you get when it comes to McDaniels unfortuantely. I think people are just simply wishing and hoping he is the white knight because of serious denial.
valid points. i don't know about the structure of the organizations either of those guys ended up at, but it is possible that it is different from that of Denvers. Maybe the problem isn' twith the HC so much as it is with the power appointed to the HC position in Denver. Heck, even the veteran Shanahan sucked at it in his last several years. Maybe Xanders and Ellis need to be looked at with a bit more scrutiny as a well

[BigDaddyBronco]

If we had talented players I would put it on execution. To be honest, our team just isn't that talented or are older to the point that they can't execute like they used to. That is on the coach. When he drove all the offensive talent out of town, he had draft picks to replace the talent. He didn't. That does lie in his hands. They just aren't that talented, but they have some great character. :shrugs:

And I have been in favor of firing him as a GM. All I have been saying is that are you all prepared for several seasons of losing football? If the next guy fails and we have to rebuild again, we become the Detroit Lions or Bills. If the owner doesn't want to put the right front office in place that is what we will see.

[GEM]

No I haven't, and no I don't believe everything that comes out of his mouth. But, it's pretty convenient to make one guy the scapegoat for all the problems this franchise has. Maybe McDaniels is Idi Amin, I don't know, but painting him as the bogeyman is a stretch.

He's not alone. The problems on this team started way before he got here. The problems on D were of Shanny's doing...but that is why Shanny was let go. McD was brought in for change. He changed a lot of stuff alright...but he continued to ignore what was wrong with this team all along. I understand needing to institute his own system...but that goes out the window when he instituted a power blocking OLine with the same players.

So he didn't like Cutler....so what, Cutler can run any offense out there. So was it a necessity to get rid of him when at the time the real problems were that we didn't have a LB better than DJ Williams and our worst went by the names of Webster and whoever that guy was that danced after allowing a 5 yd gain? Our best safety was who again? Can't even remember. Our best defensive lineman was some scrub who isn't even in the NFL. But Cutler was the immediate issue that needed to be dealt with.

He created the issues that he now is dealing with. He had multiple draft picks to gain stars and replenish a talentless team...but instead squandered the picks away and used them on projects, character guys with less talent and just questionable all the way around.

My point being...he painted himself in this corner on his own. Unfortunately not a damn thing he has done has been successful and he works in a town where success isn't wanted, it's a necessity.

[BroncoNut]

what is "good character" anyway? what a crock of poopy. Good character as determined by who?

[GEM]

And I have been in favor of firing him as a GM. All I have been saying is that are you all prepared for several seasons of losing football? If the next guy fails and we have to rebuild again, we become the Detroit Lions or Bills. If the owner doesn't want to put the right front office in place that is what we will see.

We already look worse than the Detroit Lions or the Bills. I'm sorry, but this just doesn't look to get any better. We take the chance on keeping him and it comes out there is more to Spygate 2....we lose the #1...or worse yet....we keep him around and he's allowed to squander yet ANOTHER draft pick. We're already set back about 3 years because the talent we have now is what we have...we don't get any of those wasted picks back.

[Northman]

valid points. i don't know about the structure of the organizations either of those guys ended up at, but it is possible that it is different from that of Denvers. Maybe the problem isn' twith the HC so much as it is with the power appointed to the HC position in Denver. Heck, even the veteran Shanahan sucked at it in his last several years. Maybe Xanders and Ellis need to be looked at with a bit more scrutiny as a well

There's no doubt that GM is a problem and so is the power that McD has in personnel. However, every commentator and human being on the planet will tell you that when the Denver job opened up it was one of the best situations for a young coach to come into because there was already pieces in place unlike St. Louis or Tampa Bay. The situation was one of the best ones on the market and McD totally screwed the pooch by dismantling it which had nothing to do with Xanders or Ellis.

[GEM]

what is "good character" anyway? what a crock of poopy. Good character as determined by who?

McDaniels right after he said....I did not watch that videotape.

[frauschieze]

So he didn't like Cutler....so what, Cutler can run any offense out there. So was it a necessity to get rid of him when at the time the real problems were that we didn't have a LB better than DJ Williams and our worst went by the names of Webster and whoever that guy was that danced after allowing a 5 yd gain? Our best safety was who again? Can't even remember. Our best defensive lineman was some scrub who isn't even in the NFL. But Cutler was the immediate issue that needed to be dealt with.



BBoy Jamie Winborn, who somewhat amazingly is still playing. And really, it was a moral victory, since normally, he just watched the runner blow right on by him. :D

[BroncoNut]

we actually have some great receivers, and possibly a great talent in Tebow. I'm not saying it was worth the reach for the latter but who knows? And also, not to get back into the why isn't Tebow getting played argument. Also, as far as talent being squandered the only 2 I regret are Hillis and Scheffler. We could use both now

[GEM]

BBoy Jamie Winborn, who somewhat amazingly is still playing. And really, it was a moral victory, since normally, he just watched the runner blow right on by him. :D

Yea I saw him up in Buffalo somewhere and just shook my head as the word SUCKERS escaped my lips. :lol:

[BigDaddyBronco]

He's not alone. The problems on this team started way before he got here. The problems on D were of Shanny's doing...but that is why Shanny was let go. McD was brought in for change. He changed a lot of stuff alright...but he continued to ignore what was wrong with this team all along. I understand needing to institute his own system...but that goes out the window when he instituted a power blocking OLine with the same players.

So he didn't like Cutler....so what, Cutler can run any offense out there. So was it a necessity to get rid of him when at the time the real problems were that we didn't have a LB better than DJ Williams and our worst went by the names of Webster and whoever that guy was that danced after allowing a 5 yd gain? Our best safety was who again? Can't even remember. Our best defensive lineman was some scrub who isn't even in the NFL. But Cutler was the immediate issue that needed to be dealt with.

He created the issues that he now is dealing with. He had multiple draft picks to gain stars and replenish a talentless team...but instead squandered the picks away and used them on projects, character guys with less talent and just questionable all the way around.

My point being...he painted himself in this corner on his own. Unfortunately not a damn thing he has done has been successful and he works in a town where success isn't wanted, it's a necessity.

I'm not arguing with any of that, I'm just saying that it doesn't appear that Bowlen wants to build a real front office, so if we fire McD we will be back to square one with a new coach who wants his system installed and his players, etc. and unless Bowlen gets an epiphany we will be right back where we started. Maybe the new guy would be better at it than McD, but was Shanny any better? What makes us think that the new guy would be any better than what we have seen over the last 10 years?

I really don't know what the right answer is, and it really doesn't matter what I think. I would like them to get a real GM, even if it means firing McD, but I doubt that will happen. I wanted them to get a defensive coach and keep the offensive system in place, but that didn't happen. So I chose to watch the games and root for my team, but try and limit my emotional involvement as rebuilding is a painful experience.

[Dreadnought]

BBoy Jamie Winborn, who somewhat amazingly is still playing. And really, it was a moral victory, since normally, he just watched the runner blow right on by him. :D

Be fair, it was more often Calvin Lowry watching guys blow past him, as he took worse angles than near any other DB I have ever watched play this game.

[G_Money]

And I have been in favor of firing him as a GM. All I have been saying is that are you all prepared for several seasons of losing football? If the next guy fails and we have to rebuild again, we become the Detroit Lions or Bills. If the owner doesn't want to put the right front office in place that is what we will see.

You can't fire him as GM, BDB. Who comes in to that situation and retains McDaniels as head coach?

Maybe it would be like Cleveland, where Holmgren came in and decided to keep Mangini anyway, but I can tell you he was NOT required to do so. He decided maybe it would work and he's Mike effing Holmgren and if it doesn't work the only guy getting fired is Mangini.

But normally if you bring in a real GM, then the first thing that has to happen is he gets full control of the team, including who to fire and hire. That means hiring people to work with McDaniels. Like, say, a defensive coordinator that Josh can't then fire because the guy back-talked him.

And it would mean taking the draft away from him.

Has ANYTHING about McDaniels shown you that he would take losing power well? That he would be okay with having to work with coaches he didn't hire? That he would coach up personnel he didn't personally choose?

I can't see someone good wanting the hassle of working with McDaniels, and I can't see Josh agreeing to do things someone else's way. Of course, I didn't think Mangini could either and he's had some personal growth this year. It's possible.

I just don't think it's anywhere near the realm of likely. I don't see a Parcells/Schottenheimer coming here and putting up with Josh, and I don't see an up-and-comer like Ari Nissim, Les Snead or Chris Polian risking their big break on a coach they didn't hand-select to be able work closely with.

Everybody wants the best chance for their own success. I agree, Josh's best chance is with a good GM, but whose best chance at success is Josh?

I can't see the guy for whom he is the best option, so I can't see that front-office makeover happening with him here.

~G

[BigDaddyBronco]

You can't fire him as GM, BDB. Who comes in to that situation and retains McDaniels as head coach?

Maybe it would be like Cleveland, where Holmgren came in and decided to keep Mangini anyway, but I can tell you he was NOT required to do so. He decided maybe it would work and he's Mike effing Holmgren and if it doesn't work the only guy getting fired is Mangini.

But normally if you bring in a real GM, then the first thing that has to happen is he gets full control of the team, including who to fire and hire. That means hiring people to work with McDaniels. Like, say, a defensive coordinator that Josh can't then fire because the guy back-talked him.

And it would mean taking the draft away from him.

Has ANYTHING about McDaniels shown you that he would take losing power well? That he would be okay with having to work with coaches he didn't hire? That he would coach up personnel he didn't personally choose?

Oh, and if McD throws a fit, fire his ass.

I can't see someone good wanting the hassle of working with McDaniels, and I can't see Josh agreeing to do things someone else's way. Of course, I didn't think Mangini could either and he's had some personal growth this year. It's possible.

I just don't think it's anywhere near the realm of likely. I don't see a Parcells/Schottenheimer coming here and putting up with Josh, and I don't see an up-and-comer like Ari Nissim, Les Snead or Chris Polian risking their big break on a coach they didn't hand-select to be able work closely with.

Everybody wants the best chance for their own success. I agree, Josh's best chance is with a good GM, but whose best chance at success is Josh?

I can't see the guy for whom he is the best option, so I can't see that front-office makeover happening with him here.

~G

I think the only way it works is if you get a young, up-and-comer and let them know that they will have a say in McDaniels, but that he gets a one year cushion to try and see if things will work or not. One thing about the NFL, is that these guys get additional chances and can make an instant name for themselves if they clean up a mess. Mix in a suportive and patient owner, and I think it's a great job.

Oh and if McD has a fit, fire his ass.

[arapaho2]

it amuses me how the few mcd supporters can waive the ...rebuilding flag!....and back it by if we fire him we start another two / three yr rebuild....NOT TRUE!!!


a good coach would not have depleted all the talent from a team he is wanting to make a winner....a good coach would have recognized the 29th ranked defense was the focus point and not the offense


so a good solid coach like gruden would come in and do what


recognize the talent..keep whats there
recognize the positions of weakness..fix that priority


so certainly a new coach would probably keep orton,tebow, thomas, moreno, decker, llyod, clady, beadles, walton, kuper and harris


a new coach would also more then likely keep, ayers, doom, vickerson, DJ, bannon, haggan, mays, r.hill, cox..bruton,syd thompson, m thomas with a couple more


on the buble would be champ contract wise...jamal w...dawkins


so this false pretense that we would be set back another 3 years is bogus...a competent coach would recognize the talent that is there and build and tweek around it...not to mention the benefit of good coaching


no one else is gonna follow the josh mcdanials blue print of building a team by dismantaling it

[Italianmobstr7]

I'm with you Tned. I don't think we should fire him until at least the end of next season. We just need more time. I know that some people believe that they can already divine the future but constant change is a bad thing.

This is exactly how I feel and why I also don't think he should be fired.

[frauschieze]

Be fair, it was more often Calvin Lowry watching guys blow past him, as he took worse angles than near any other DB I have ever watched play this game.

*curses wildly*

I had mentally blocked that person's name from existence. I honestly was trying to come up with it when I posted about Winborn, but it was long gone. Now I'm shuddering from flashbacks. That dude was flat out TERRIBLE. Our safeties were singularly horrendous that year.

[BigDaddyBronco]

it amuses me how the few mcd supporters can waive the ...rebuilding flag!....and back it by if we fire him we start another two / three yr rebuild....NOT TRUE!!!


a good coach would not have depleted all the talent from a team he is wanting to make a winner....a good coach would have recognized the 29th ranked defense was the focus point and not the offense

so a good solid coach like gruden would come in and do what

recognize the talent..keep whats there
recognize the positions of weakness..fix that priority

so certainly a new coach would keep orton, thomas, moreno, decker, llyod, clady, beadles, walton, kuper and harris

a new coach would also more then likely keep, ayers, doom, vickerson, DJ, bannon, haggan, mays, r.hill, cox..bruton,syd thompson, m thomas with a couple more

on the buble would be champ contract wise...jamal w...dawkins

so this false pretense that we would be set back another 3 years is bogus...a competent coach would recognize the talent that is there and build and tweek around it...not to mention the benefit of good coaching

no one else is gonna follow the josh mcdanials blue print of building a team by dismantaling it

Ok, does Gruden run a spread offense? Can he? Is Orton and Lloyd still worth a shit without this offense? How is Gruden as a GM. How is he as a GM/HC? You seem pretty confident, but I still think the chances at failure are higher than success.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Ok, I didn't think this would ever be the case, but I find myself being one of only a handful of poeple not calling for McDaniels to be fired. Is that really the case, or are the rest of you just silent?

Now, I do think all you ****s that called me a McDaniels hater should also post your "Oops, I guess you really did just take issue with some of his player moves", but that's an aside.

Really folks, there is zero upside in firing McDaniels right now. Surely I'm not the only person that sees that.

Help me out, convince me I haven't fallen into some alternate universe where everyone has jumped on the fire McDaniels bandwagon.

I also do not see the upside of firing Coach McD. I do believe that they need to bring in a strong GM, but I really believe if Coach concentrates only on coaching, he will be a great HC. I also believe that if they bring in a strong GM, he should work with Coach to get his input, as it is the Coach who has to work with the players.

[arapaho2]

Ok, does Gruden run a spread offense? Can he? Is Orton and Lloyd still worth a shit without this offense? How is Gruden as a GM. How is he as a GM/HC? You seem pretty confident, but I still think the chances at failure are higher than success.


so your thinking gruden couldnt run this team...or that llyod, orton, royal, moreno the oline wouldnt be able to adjust to a version of the west coast?

your thinking joshes offense alone is the key?

lyods job is to stretch the field, thomas, decker, royal all would be great in what ever ofense you get

how is gruden as a Hc?..LOL alot better than mcd thats for damn sure


and were already failing...we are 3-8..5-16 over the past 21 games

we are the laughin stock of the league and will finish at the BOTTOM OF THE AFC WEST for the first time in how many seasons?

right now we are the 28th ranked team in the entire NFL...28TH!!!

why waste a top 5 overall pick on MCDs ...its time for him to go

and gruden was just a name to make a point...that this we fire MCD and were in a complete rebuild for the next 3 yrs is bull shit

[G_Money]

Ok, does Gruden run a spread offense? Can he? Is Orton and Lloyd still worth a shit without this offense? How is Gruden as a GM. How is he as a GM/HC? You seem pretty confident, but I still think the chances at failure are higher than success.

You watched the Raiders with Rich Gannon, right? Yes, he can run a spread. He runs a West Coast which is about half-a-step from a spread as it is. He also likes running backs.

Gruden actually might work with or even under a GM, unlike a Shanahan or apparently Cowher. He wants to coach first. He worked with McKay and Bruce Allen as his GMs. He had personnel input but neither guy worked for him.

Lloyd would be a giant in a Gruden offense without question.

Chucky also likes Tebow. Now, if you don't believe Tebow can be a good pro QB that's a big problem. Still, he doesn't really stick with QBs he doesn't believe in so maybe it wouldn't be the worst thing.

*shrugs* There are worse options than Gruden. He should be able to use most of the offensive personnel immediately. He isn't the world's best locker room leader and tends to rely on his veterans to get that job done (sound familiar?) and he can definitely get out-coached on the sidelines. Still, his preparation is outstanding. He can win with someone else's guys (See: Super Bowl ring) but can also get them to do things his way.

I understand why so many want us to go in that direction.

~G

[I Eat Staples]

For those saying we need to find a scheme and stick with it, trust me, McD/Wink is not the scheme we want to stick with. This regime is garbage and we will never win under these clowns. Period.

I'd rather be in a 3 year rebuild than a 3 year period of getting worse and worse each year and allowing McD to dig a deeper hole each offseason.

[NightTrainLayne]

If you earn 3 dollars, and you then turn around and spend three dollars... you still spent 3 dollars. We could have moved around, acquired picks, and used those picks on more players at positions of need. Doesn't matter that we acquired picks early, and then used those picks for Tebow....because we STILL used three picks to get Tebow.

But this ignores the idea that you specifically made a plan to earn an extra $3 for a specific purpose. If I get some extra overtime in so that I can afford to blow money on a boat, then criticizing me for the money I wasted on the boat is going to fall flat. I wanted a boat but knew it couldn't fit in my regular salary budget, so I earned some extra specifically for the boat.

McD knew going in that he didn't have the ability to get Tebow without earning those other picks by trading back. He did that solely to go after Tebow. This is one

[BigDaddyBronco]

So if Gruden came in and went 4-12 or 5-11 as he did with TB it would be ok? Also, Gruden always had a GM, something we don't have now, what if he had to be a GM/HC? Gruden was a .509 coach with TB, and would have been worse had he not inheritied the Tony Dungy defense. I just don't see how Gruden, who is a good offensive coach, fixes our defense and becomes a good GM. If he has to rebuild like he did in Tampa, then we will have mediocre seasons like he did in Tampa.

[Krugan]

Okay now that the suds and Beam have cleared, i see your point and to a degree i can agree with it.(this is for those that think change now can be bad)

The changing of the guard is hard on any franchise, that can not be denied.

The flip flopping does create more headaches, growing pains.

That being said, this is a buisness and consumer confidence has to come into play at some point.

Im not sure Bowlen is the type that likes to watch his fanbase and income dwindle. If there is truth to the low turnout this week, or those numbers are even close, thats a bad sign.

Frankly I think Bowlen has to make a move and remove someone, just to say to everyone, that this is NOT the way I want my franchise to be viewed, and I will do what is needed to bring us back to where we should be, that is a classy do anything to win orginization. You, than fan, deserve this.

Just buisness.

[GEM]

For those saying we need to find a scheme and stick with it, trust me, McD/Wink is not the scheme we want to stick with. This regime is garbage and we will never win under these clowns. Period.

I'd rather be in a 3 year rebuild than a 3 year period of getting worse and worse each year and allowing McD to dig a deeper hole each offseason.


Yea, it kind of throws the logic of not wanting to start over out the window if we stick with McD for a couple more seasons and continue to get worse and at the end of 2 more seasons we still need to go through the 3 year period. That's a total of 5 when it could be a total of 3. We can't just make the assumption that something different is going to happen in the next 2 seasons under McD.

[Tned]

I'm curious, many of the people calling for McD's head now, fully supported his trading Cutler, trading Marshall, trading Scheffler, and in many cases, trading Hillis.

So, now that you believe McDaniels has screwed things up so bad that he should be fired, do you still support all of those moves? If so, isn't that having it both ways? You support the moves that helped set the franchise back (requiring him to focus on rebulding offense), but no longer support him?

[BigDaddyBronco]

Okay now that the suds and Beam have cleared, i see your point and to a degree i can agree with it.(this is for those that think change now can be bad)

The changing of the guard is hard on any franchise, that can not be denied.

The flip flopping does create more headaches, growing pains.

That being said, this is a buisness and consumer confidence has to come into play at some point.

Im not sure Bowlen is the type that likes to watch his fanbase and income dwindle. If there is truth to the low turnout this week, or those numbers are even close, thats a bad sign.

Frankly I think Bowlen has to make a move and remove someone, just to say to everyone, that this is NOT the way I want my franchise to be viewed, and I will do what is needed to bring us back to where we should be, that is a classy do anything to win orginization. You, than fan, deserve this.

Just buisness.
Of course he would need to see revenue dwindling to make a business decision. A bunch of people on message boards don't represent the entire fan base, business advertising income, etc. But I do agree that whatever decision Bowlen makes it will be business related, he is not a win at all costs type of owner.

[G_Money]

I just can't figure out how where we are is different than Jim Zorn, Cam Cameron, Scott Linehan, Jim Mora, or any other woebegone head coach in over his head the last few years.

Did anybody in Miami cling to Cam Cameron? Was the investment in Scott Linehan too much to overcome in St. Louis?

Linehan was brought back for a 3rd season and fired after an 0-4 start. THAT'S what I don't want: wasting 2011 (whatever part of it has football played) because we weren't bold enough to make a change in 2010.

How bad does this year have to get to have McDaniels fired at the end of it? If we go winless the rest of the way, does that do it? If we just beat the Cardinals?

I don't want to hear about how bad the defense is. We didn't invest in it and we fired a good coach for it and replaced him with a hack who had never been a DC at any level.

The Dolphins are 6th in yards allowed and 10th in points allowed with our former defensive coordinator, by the way.

We're 27th in yards and 32nd in points.

If you HAVE a good offense and scrap it because you don't want to deal with the personnel involved, thus robbing your defense of a half-dozen picks it could have used, then have a good DC and fire HIM because you don't agree with the defense he's running, don't complain to me that you haven't had enough time to get it right.

2 years was enough for Zorn and Linehan, and for me it's enough for McDaniels too. Josh may go on to be a good coach somewhere else. He's totally blown his opportunity here.

~G

[Krugan]

Of course he would need to see revenue dwindling to make a business decision. A bunch of people on message boards don't represent the entire fan base, business advertising income, etc. But I do agree that whatever decision Bowlen makes it will be business related, he is not a win at all costs type of owner.

I think its more than just us here.

The turn out at the game was very low, im thinking thats pretty solid sign that there is issue.

[Mike]

I'm curious, many of the people calling for McD's head now, fully supported his trading Cutler, trading Marshall, trading Scheffler, and in many cases, trading Hillis.

So, now that you believe McDaniels has screwed things up so bad that he should be fired, do you still support all of those moves? If so, isn't that having it both ways? You support the moves that helped set the franchise back (requiring him to focus on rebulding offense), but no longer support him?

I was thinking about that this morning. Really, moving those three (Cutler, Marshall, Scheff) have not been devastating to the team. McD had a plan and I was willing to wait and see and give him the benefit of the doubt. With each loss and the lack of any signs of improvement I edged closer to the line. The Oakland loss put me over the edge.

I still do not agree with what Cutler did and do not like him and feel that Bowlen probably forced McD's hand on the trade issue. I can see why it had to happen after the Cassell issue and the not returning phone calls...but I admit it is easier to see the pro-Cutler peoples side now.

Marshall and Scheffler, I agree with the trades and don't hold it against McD nor do I feel that the moves set the team back.

Hillis...I fault McD entirely and hope he continues to rip up the league to make McD look like the fool he is. I guess I supported the trade in as much as I knew McD wouldn't play him, so it was better to move him.

[CoachChaz]

Crystal balls must be on sale. I think...at best...we can say that Gruden or any other coach could do "as well" as McD. There is nothing to show that anyone would do any better. System QB...youngest OL in the NFL...NO defense...the list goes on. What miracle worker could walk in and right this ship overnight?

I'm not saying that McD should not be replaced if the problems continue. I'm just saying that I wont expect any miracles from anyone else. I just dont understand why people want us to be the Cowboys or the Yankees. Give a guy a season and a half and if he's not in the mix for a Championship...FIRE HIM!!! Then you get the coaching carousel that Dallas has had for the last 15 years. Always interested me that guys like Sporano and Payton get bumped and have success elsewhere, but the big names like Parcells couldnt even get it done in Dallas. So what evidence is there to prove that Gruden or anyone else will have success in Denver? And if they do have success in 2 years with the current roster plus a few defensive additions...who'e to say McD couldnt have had the same success.

It's a Catch-22 IMO. I dont know what the answer is, but jumping the gun after less than 2 seasons seems a bit risky. The fans reasons for failure get more and more iffy each day.

First, Orton didnt have a strong enough arm...but he's a league leader in passing yards.
Moreno sucks...but never gets too many chances to carry the ball more then 15 times in an offense designed to pass the ball.

The list goes on and patience has worn so thin that we have people claiming failure for rookies and young players before they ever get a chance to do anything...simply because they were drafted by McDaniels.

Show me evidence that another coach will DEFINITELY improve everything immediately and I'm on board. Until then, all we can do is wait and support the team.

[BroncoNut]

I'm curious, many of the people calling for McD's head now, fully supported his trading Cutler, trading Marshall, trading Scheffler, and in many cases, trading Hillis.

So, now that you believe McDaniels has screwed things up so bad that he should be fired, do you still support all of those moves? If so, isn't that having it both ways? You support the moves that helped set the franchise back (requiring him to focus on rebulding offense), but no longer support him?

his moves just havent' paid off. He's now suspect with every move he makes. there's not too much to be confident about in him anymore.

[Northman]

So if Gruden came in and went 4-12 or 5-11 as he did with TB it would be ok? Also, Gruden always had a GM, something we don't have now, what if he had to be a GM/HC? Gruden was a .509 coach with TB, and would have been worse had he not inheritied the Tony Dungy defense. I just don't see how Gruden, who is a good offensive coach, fixes our defense and becomes a good GM. If he has to rebuild like he did in Tampa, then we will have mediocre seasons like he did in Tampa.

No offense but this is why i have to laugh at you guys. You want to say that Gruden would fail even though he helped build the Raider team that he faced in the SB with the Buccaneers yet still got the job done and lost talent after the fact but want to proclaim McD a success when he isnt even a .500 coach? Your arguement there makes zero sense.

[CoachChaz]

Yea, it kind of throws the logic of not wanting to start over out the window if we stick with McD for a couple more seasons and continue to get worse and at the end of 2 more seasons we still need to go through the 3 year period. That's a total of 5 when it could be a total of 3. We can't just make the assumption that something different is going to happen in the next 2 seasons under McD.

But we can assume things will get better under someone else? How so?

[Northman]

Okay now that the suds and Beam have cleared, i see your point and to a degree i can agree with it.(this is for those that think change now can be bad)

The changing of the guard is hard on any franchise, that can not be denied.

The flip flopping does create more headaches, growing pains.

That being said, this is a buisness and consumer confidence has to come into play at some point.

Im not sure Bowlen is the type that likes to watch his fanbase and income dwindle. If there is truth to the low turnout this week, or those numbers are even close, thats a bad sign.

Frankly I think Bowlen has to make a move and remove someone, just to say to everyone, that this is NOT the way I want my franchise to be viewed, and I will do what is needed to bring us back to where we should be, that is a classy do anything to win orginization. You, than fan, deserve this.

Just buisness.



http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2252/1862544845_cd72887c04.jpg

[frauschieze]

I'm curious, many of the people calling for McD's head now, fully supported his trading Cutler, trading Marshall, trading Scheffler, and in many cases, trading Hillis.

So, now that you believe McDaniels has screwed things up so bad that he should be fired, do you still support all of those moves? If so, isn't that having it both ways? You support the moves that helped set the franchise back (requiring him to focus on rebulding offense), but no longer support him?

I don't know, T. There is a plethora of McD mistakes to choose from, mix and match style, to justify his firing. One doesn't need to use any of those trades to come up with the conclusion that his time in Denver should be up.

[CoachChaz]

No offense but this is why i have to laugh at you guys. You want to say that Gruden would fail even though he helped build the Raider team that he faced in the SB with the Buccaneers yet still got the job done and lost talent after the fact but want to proclaim McD a success when he isnt even a .500 coach? Your arguement there makes zero sense.

Parcells took the Giants to the Super Bowl a few times and accomplished nothing in Dallas. Sometimes...a coach's PAST success does not translate into future success.

[dogfish]

And I have been in favor of firing him as a GM. All I have been saying is that are you all prepared for several seasons of losing football? If the next guy fails and we have to rebuild again, we become the Detroit Lions or Bills. If the owner doesn't want to put the right front office in place that is what we will see.

wait, haven't we already become the detroit lions? our record sure looks like we have. . .

[Northman]

I'm curious, many of the people calling for McD's head now, fully supported his trading Cutler, trading Marshall, trading Scheffler, and in many cases, trading Hillis.

So, now that you believe McDaniels has screwed things up so bad that he should be fired, do you still support all of those moves? If so, isn't that having it both ways? You support the moves that helped set the franchise back (requiring him to focus on rebulding offense), but no longer support him?

Who exactly are you referring too? Ive seen you bring this up a lot in the last 24 hours but have no idea to whom you are talking about.

[TheDave]

Ok, I didn't think this would ever be the case, but I find myself being one of only a handful of poeple not calling for McDaniels to be fired. Is that really the case, or are the rest of you just silent?

Now, I do think all you ****s that called me a McDaniels hater should also post your "Oops, I guess you really did just take issue with some of his player moves", but that's an aside.

Really folks, there is zero upside in firing McDaniels right now. Surely I'm not the only person that sees that.

Help me out, convince me I haven't fallen into some alternate universe where everyone has jumped on the fire McDaniels bandwagon.

Sorry is this has been covered 10+ times alreadys... BUT, FWIW...

The level of incompetance he has shown is not acceptable. In all my years I have never seen anyone screw something up this bad then just suddenly turn it around and win. IMO he is not capable of producing a winning franchise in the near term. Because of that, I think it would be irresponsible to give him and/or xanders the opportunity to waste any more draft pics or cash or time trying to implement their "system"

It's time to take the keys to the car away from the kids. Now the real roblem... Who the hell do we hire to clean up this mess.

[frauschieze]

Josh may go on to be a good coach somewhere else. He's totally blown his opportunity here.

~G

I'll take it one step further: I don't think McD can be a good coach until he leaves Denver. He needs the massive ego shredding of getting fired to gain some of the necessary humility needed for his level of inexperience.

[Dreadnought]

I'm curious, many of the people calling for McD's head now, fully supported his trading Cutler, trading Marshall, trading Scheffler, and in many cases, trading Hillis.

So, now that you believe McDaniels has screwed things up so bad that he should be fired, do you still support all of those moves? If so, isn't that having it both ways? You support the moves that helped set the franchise back (requiring him to focus on rebulding offense), but no longer support him?

I get a free pass T. I think he mishandled all of those situations from the start (though Marshall is such a PITA that I do understand moving him without liking it), and many others as well :salute:

[Northman]

I just can't figure out how where we are is different than Jim Zorn, Cam Cameron, Scott Linehan, Jim Mora, or any other woebegone head coach in over his head the last few years.

Did anybody in Miami cling to Cam Cameron? Was the investment in Scott Linehan too much to overcome in St. Louis?

Linehan was brought back for a 3rd season and fired after an 0-4 start. THAT'S what I don't want: wasting 2011 (whatever part of it has football played) because we weren't bold enough to make a change in 2010.

How bad does this year have to get to have McDaniels fired at the end of it? If we go winless the rest of the way, does that do it? If we just beat the Cardinals?

I don't want to hear about how bad the defense is. We didn't invest in it and we fired a good coach for it and replaced him with a hack who had never been a DC at any level.

The Dolphins are 6th in yards allowed and 10th in points allowed with our former defensive coordinator, by the way.

We're 27th in yards and 32nd in points.

If you HAVE a good offense and scrap it because you don't want to deal with the personnel involved, thus robbing your defense of a half-dozen picks it could have used, then have a good DC and fire HIM because you don't agree with the defense he's running, don't complain to me that you haven't had enough time to get it right.

2 years was enough for Zorn and Linehan, and for me it's enough for McDaniels too. Josh may go on to be a good coach somewhere else. He's totally blown his opportunity here.

~G

Me either, we have people saying that Gruden is a failed HC but somehow McDaniels is the real deal. :lol:

[BroncoNut]

But we can assume things will get better under someone else? How so?

that's the thing. It's a crapshoot. With a proven coach, one would expect things to get better and, more than likely, we havent' seen the full potential of Coach McD.

[BigDaddyBronco]

No offense but this is why i have to laugh at you guys. You want to say that Gruden would fail even though he helped build the Raider team that he faced in the SB with the Buccaneers yet still got the job done and lost talent after the fact but want to proclaim McD a success when he isnt even a .500 coach? Your arguement there makes zero sense.
How did he build the Raiders? He was never a GM and most of the players were there except fot Gannon. He coached them well and they wen't to the playoffs, but didn't get over the hump.

He wins the SB with his offense, but more so with that great defense that Dungy built. After that one 11-5 season, but all with loses in the 1st round of the playoffs and also with 3 losing seasons and more or less a .500 coach. maybe if he is just the HC and they get a Monte Kiffen type guy to run the defense (don't forget about him) and get a real GM it will work, but if he has to step into McD's shoes and do what he does, how will he do?

[G_Money]

So if Gruden came in and went 4-12 or 5-11 as he did with TB it would be ok? Also, Gruden always had a GM, something we don't have now, what if he had to be a GM/HC? Gruden was a .509 coach with TB, and would have been worse had he not inheritied the Tony Dungy defense. I just don't see how Gruden, who is a good offensive coach, fixes our defense and becomes a good GM. If he has to rebuild like he did in Tampa, then we will have mediocre seasons like he did in Tampa.

I'm not sure how it would be like Tampa if we bring in a GM here not named McKay or Allen. I guess this is under the philosophy of "Gruden is the GM too and he's no better at it than his Tampa guys" right?

McKay was a lucky idiot. He brutalized that Tampa team in a "win now" salary cap hell, and thankfully for them the draftpicks he traded to get Gruden wound up helping that team capitalize on the talent he'd assembled before it all fell apart.

And Gruden can't win without a decent and mobile QB. He just can't. Is he a defensive genius? Nope. Can he get one to work with him? Yep - unlike the coach we have now.

Improving the club is more important to me than winning in the first couple of years. We are not improving. We're going backwards into a ditch at high speed, even while our offense puts up gaudy passing numbers - and the worst running totals in the league.

Oh yeah, and this team is trying to out-do the 2008 Broncos as the worst defense in team history. We're not getting another Nolan in here to run the defense. With the way he left there's not another good defensive coordinator around who will take us up on an offer that I can see.

Other DCs who've worked with him in the past, Capers and Pees, both took offers elsewhere instead of coming here to reunite. Pees went to work as a LB coach for the Ravens rather than run the defense here when we fired Nolan. Why was that? :confused:

The defense isn't getting fixed with Josh here. How many years would you like to give a coach who has deliberately hamstrung that side of the ball while proving his offensive scheme cannot overcome said weak defense?

Other than masochism or insipid frugality, what's the point?

~G

[BigDaddyBronco]

wait, haven't we already become the detroit lions? our record sure looks like we have. . .So this one year equals ten years of the Lions?

[BigDaddyBronco]

I'm not sure how it would be like Tampa if we bring in a GM here not named McKay or Allen. I guess this is under the philosophy of "Gruden is the GM too and he's no better at it than his Tampa guys" right?

McKay was a lucky idiot. He brutalized that Tampa team in a "win now" salary cap hell, and thankfully for them the draftpicks he traded to get Gruden wound up helping that team capitalize on the talent he'd assembled before it all fell apart.

And Gruden can't win without a decent and mobile QB. He just can't. Is he a defensive genius? Nope. Can he get one to work with him? Yep - unlike the coach we have now.

Improving the club is more important to me than winning in the first couple of years. We are not improving. We're going backwards into a ditch at high speed, even while our offense puts up gaudy passing numbers - and the worst running totals in the league.

Oh yeah, and this team is trying to out-do the 2008 Broncos as the worst defense in team history. We're not getting another Nolan in here to run the defense. With the way he left there's not another good defensive coordinator around who will take us up on an offer that I can see.

Other DCs who've worked with him in the past, Capers and Pees, both took offers elsewhere instead of coming here to reunite. Pees went to work as a LB coach for the Ravens rather than run the defense here when we fired Nolan. Why was that? :confused:

The defense isn't getting fixed with Josh here. How many years would you like to give a coach who has deliberately hamstrung that side of the ball while proving his offensive scheme cannot overcome said weak defense?

Other than masochism or insipid frugality, what's the point?

~G
Well maybe Bowlen rehires the Goodmans and Gruden and everything is peachy. Does Gruden get Monte Kiffen as well?

[Tned]

I don't know, T. There is a plethora of McD mistakes to choose from, mix and match style, to justify his firing. One doesn't need to use any of those trades to come up with the conclusion that his time in Denver should be up.

I know, but the reason I bring it up, is fans seem to want it both ways, Cutler and Marshall "didn't want" to play here, and we are better off without them, but that was clearly driven by conflict with McD, to a lesser extent the same can be said about Scheffler and Hillis, but they were considered non-impact players.

So, I'm trying to uderstant the psyche. Those moves set the franchise back, and I highly criticized them, but once they and the other moves were allowed to happen, I think you have to let them play out.

However, people that fully supported McD in those moves, are now calling for his head. I honestly am having trouble reconciling this.

[Dreadnought]

I'll take it one step further: I don't think McD can be a good coach until he leaves Denver. He needs the massive ego shredding of getting fired to gain some of the necessary humility needed for his level of inexperience.

I'll go even more radical. I think he has now been such a disaster that right or wrong he will never get another shot as HC of an NFL franchise. He hasn't just been run o' the mill bad, he dips down into the Les Steckel/Frank Kush/Rich Kotite depths of legendary awfulness.

It might have been different with a strong GM to keep him in check and grow into the job. That Hoss done left the barn though.

[Northman]

Give a guy a season and a half and if he's not in the mix for a Championship...FIRE HIM!!!

Thats a false presumption my friend. No one has claimed he needs a championship in 2 years. Just improvement without all the same issues such as lack of discipline on the field, scoring in the redzone, improvement on the defensive side of the ball, 3rd down conversions, and now we have a cheating scandel on our hands in which the guy who preaches integrity is a major culprit. If the team was improving in those areas i would be MORE than willing to give this guy a chance to go the distance. But nothing has changed since the Shanny era and the team has gotten worse instead of getting better when it wasnt that way when he came in.

[BroncoNut]

I'll take it one step further: I don't think McD can be a good coach until he leaves Denver. He needs the massive ego shredding of getting fired to gain some of the necessary humility needed for his level of inexperience.

I think that is actually a very good point.

[Northman]

How did he build the Raiders? He was never a GM and most of the players were there except fot Gannon. He coached them well and they wen't to the playoffs, but didn't get over the hump.

He wins the SB with his offense, but more so with that great defense that Dungy built. After that one 11-5 season, but all with loses in the 1st round of the playoffs and also with 3 losing seasons and more or less a .500 coach. maybe if he is just the HC and they get a Monte Kiffen type guy to run the defense (don't forget about him) and get a real GM it will work, but if he has to step into McD's shoes and do what he does, how will he do?

You cant really believe that after what he has done he hasnt learned how to put a team together. I mean really broham? I mean, come on. Gruden is no idiot.

[G_Money]

maybe if he is just the HC and they get a Monte Kiffen type guy to run the defense (don't forget about him) and get a real GM it will work, but if he has to step into McD's shoes and do what he does, how will he do?

Jon has never been the GM/HC at any place he's ever been. Maybe he'd like to be, and would require it as a condition of taking over.

But since he's never been a GM/HC I have no idea how it would go. Maybe he'd take draft advice from his scouts better than McDaniels. Maybe he'd be able to work with a DC to take picks that fit his scheme and revamp the defensive side of the ball.

I have no clue. I do know that if what we have isn't working, then worrying about whether Gruden can get a DC is secondary to wondering if JOSH can.

And I don't think he can, which means whether or not Gruden is the right option is immaterial. Josh isn't the wrong one, and replacing him is the first step.

~G

[Slick]

For me, it's not about being in Superbowl contention in two years Coach, it's about showing some signs of life, some improvement.

Is there any reason to be excited for the future of the Broncos? Kyle Orton can throw for a shitload of yards if he has all day to throw. Big effing deal. So can any professional QB.

Josh has given us nothing to be hopeful about.

Nothing is going to happen until the end of the season and I wouldnt expect it to.

[BroncoNut]

So this one year equals ten years of the Lions?

I am afraid we might be there. the wheels have come off.

[Nomad]

I was thinking about that this morning. Really, moving those three (Cutler, Marshall, Scheff) have not been devastating to the team. McD had a plan and I was willing to wait and see and give him the benefit of the doubt. With each loss and the lack of any signs of improvement I edged closer to the line. The Oakland loss put me over the edge.

I still do not agree with what Cutler did and do not like him and feel that Bowlen probably forced McD's hand on the trade issue. I can see why it had to happen after the Cassell issue and the not returning phone calls...but I admit it is easier to see the pro-Cutler peoples side now.

Marshall and Scheffler, I agree with the trades and don't hold it against McD nor do I feel that the moves set the team back.

Hillis...I fault McD entirely and hope he continues to rip up the league to make McD look like the fool he is. I guess I supported the trade in as much as I knew McD wouldn't play him, so it was better to move him.

Pretty much the way I see it!! Never wanted Cutler and never liked Cutler, Marshall wanted out, Scheffler really didn't pay attention, and Hillis would have excelled in Mcdaniels screen pass happy offense and though his run game in college wasn't all american then again look who he blocked for!!

[Northman]

People need to keep in mind also that after Reeves was fired Wade was here for like 2 years and then ousted both in favor for a guy Bowlen loved but also because Wade was stinking up the joint. So if we replace McDaniels there is no proof that this will be a coaching "carousel" that some have eluded too.

[BigDaddyBronco]

You cant really believe that after what he has done he hasnt learned how to put a team together. I mean really broham? I mean, come on. Gruden is no idiot.

You are talking about the guy who had 4 starting QB's and wanted Plummer as well.

I like Gruden, I just don't know if he is the answer. BTW, I don't think a rudderless McD's is the answer either. He needs a GM who says, I disagree with your personnel decisions and no, Nolen will stay as the DC and he can blitz when he wants to.

[GEM]

Who exactly are you referring too? Ive seen you bring this up a lot in the last 24 hours but have no idea to whom you are talking about.

I am definitely in that boat. Call it blind homerism. I put faith in McD that he had a plan, that he knew how to institute said plan and that part of that plan is getting rid of head cases. It didn't help that I thought Cutler was a head case to start with ....with all of his whining on the sidelines. The same with Marshall and his being one suspension away from a lost season. The one that I am truly embarrassed of having tried to stick up for is Hillis. He never should have gone anywhere and I'm the stupid one for trying to play the "well the coach says he's too stupid to play" card.

I backed McD because he was our coach. I backed McD because I initially bought into his way of thinking. I jumped off his bandwagon after continually seeing failure on every front of what he was attempting to do. I jumped off after realizing something I've always known...fix what's broken and if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Dzone]

Well, its 11 AM and so far no word that Mcdaniels has been fired. Would like to see this get done by the end of the day.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/morning-jolt/11/29/broncos-heat-jolt/index.html?xid=siextra_112910

[Lancane]

Yes, and he was completely wrong on Marshall and it was a silly line of reasoning. Lloyd is elite, and Marshall is junk, because Lloyd had one great season in a forgettable career, and Marshall is in the record books to start his career.

If trading Cutler and Marshall are firing offenses, then management shouldn't have let him do it. Since they did, then I don't see how that should be the basis of showing him the door.

Bowlen/Ellis signed off on tearing down the roster, and starting from scratch. I doubt they are naive enough to think that rebuild would happen in two offseasons.

If he gets fired soon (before end of season), it will likely be because of the embarrassment factor and fan outrage.

Tned, it's not even about Marshall or Cutler, there is a reason that Gruden, Lynch, Woodson and several other pro analytical figures have blasted McDaniels - it's not just the trading of players...it's his ego and horrid decision making, they've commented that he came in and tried to fix what really didn't need to be fixed, which was the defense. Instead he totally destroyed a solid offense, that needed some tweaking, and now is still no better, in actuality it's worse.

*Denver had the second rated overall offense in 08', sixteenth overall in scoring. Now, here we are two seasons later after he's completely depleted that side of the ball and added his guys to it - we're now the eight overall offense, and thank the receivers, especially Eddie Royal for that because we should be more like the twelfth overall offense and we're now the seventeenth overall offense in scoring. Two years of dismantling and re-working a side of the ball where we were strongest is now weaker then when he was hired...some F'n offensive genius! And for anyone who wants to say Orton is part of it...Jay Cutler threw for 4526 yards, was rated third overall in passing, with I might add a better rushing offense then what we have now and so arguably better talent in more key positions.

*Denver had on the other hand the twenty-ninth overall defense, and were third in yards allowed...two seasons later under McDaniels and is almighty goddamn wisdom, we've jumped two slots and are the twenty-seventh overall defense...but guess what, that's right we're now first in points allowed! Time to celebrate, we've come so far...and we should all see light at the end of the tunnel...only if you wear McDaniels' special brand orange sunglasses!

The one issue that Denver had, we still F'n have, this dipstick thought offense was the issue, well...we're now worse offensively, no better defensively and our draft and free agent additions over two off-seasons are suspect, even questionable. Not one true defensive star has emerged in two drafts, Ayers has promise...but he's a prototypical 4-3 defensive end playing outside linebacker, and if you look at the numbers his success comes mostly when the team is running 4-3 stints, though the base defense is a 3-4? McBath looks to have talent, but can't seem to stay on the field long enough to show more then that. He's spent only seven picks on the defensive side of the ball, out of nineteen picks, let's not forget the one's he's trade for mere shit players or to move to draft players yet to show themselves as more then fodder. Twelve picks have been used on offensive players, only two have become starters, while some have promise, more promise then our defensive additions...again, our offense wasn't the damn issue!

I keep hearing that he needs three years, his system is complex and needs at least three years. Okay, first off...I disagree, Tom Brady and the New England Patriots in only they're second season became a powerhouse offensively and made it to and won the super bowl. Numerous high schools are switching to the spread variant systems? If it's so complex, why the hell is everyone switching to it? Especially if it takes so long to install? The answer is quite simple, that whole complex thing is a goddamn excuse...so deal with it. And if we really want to honest, his system is not the problem, he is...because his system entails only the offense, we might not be perfect offensively but it's a whole hell of a lot better then our defense.

So why does he deserve three years? Has he earned that three years by way of improvement? No. Has he earned it by completely dismantling the offense and focusing on that rather then the defense? No. Maybe he earned it because of Tim Tebow? No, especially not when you account for what little promise he's shown thus far in all other areas. Has the defense improved enough to garner him another draft and at least one more year? No.

So, I'll give a chance to his supporters to sway me... What in your eyes has he accomplished, provided or done that has earned him another year? Better yet, can any one of those who say he needs three years provide a coach in the modern era that has needed three years, then continued with that same said team to be successful? Name one head coach that has needed three years and has gone on with that same team to be more then mediocre and not eventually fired anyways.

[Northman]

I am afraid we might be there. the wheels have come off.

Indeed. The Lions and Bengals troubles started somewhere so while we may not have gone a decade yet of being a bottom dwellar the signs are there that are beginning that trend. McDaniels has DONE NOTHING to improve this team.

[G_Money]

I'll take it one step further: I don't think McD can be a good coach until he leaves Denver. He needs the massive ego shredding of getting fired to gain some of the necessary humility needed for his level of inexperience.

Agreed. He needs to be able to dial it down several notches and focus on doing what he can do instead of trying to do everything and failing at it.

~G

[frauschieze]

I know, but the reason I bring it up, is fans seem to want it both ways, Cutler and Marshall "didn't want" to play here, and we are better off without them, but that was clearly driven by conflict with McD, to a lesser extent the same can be said about Scheffler and Hillis, but they were considered non-impact players.

So, I'm trying to uderstant the psyche. Those moves set the franchise back, and I highly criticized them, but once they and the other moves were allowed to happen, I think you have to let them play out.

However, people that fully supported McD in those moves, are now calling for his head. I honestly am having trouble reconciling this.

I can only guess (as I'm one of the ones who didn't like the trades; I still think Scheffler got a raw deal), but the way McD has handled everything else is pretty rotten. I can see from another's point of view, that those trades were in the best interests of the team. And in that viewpoint, it's not about McD at all. Those moves would have been supported no matter who the coach was. It has nothing to do with McD's scheme or vision of the team. So why should it affect another person's opinion on whether or not McD is the right coach for the team right now?

Long story short, supporting those moves is not automatically an endorsement of McD's vision for the future of our team. And according to the way we're playing and the circus act that continues to surround Dove Valley despite getting rid of the "cancers", McD's vision is not one those people like. The issues are easily mutually exclusive.

[Buff]

For me, it's not about being in Superbowl contention in two years Coach, it's about showing some signs of life, some improvement.

Is there any reason to be excited for the future of the Broncos? Kyle Orton can throw for a shitload of yards if he has all day to throw. Big effing deal. So can any professional QB.

Josh has given us nothing to be hopeful about.

Nothing is going to happen until the end of the season and I wouldnt expect it to.

I don't know, I think there is reason to be excited about the future... We're basically set on the offensive side of the ball from a personnel standpoint. WR corps is deep, the o-line is young, we've got a couple of capable QB's and a 1st rd RB (who probably needs a little more help).

John Lynch made a valid point that we were reconstructing the offense when we should have been focusing on the defense - but those are the breaks... No one could have predicted that Cutler would go all drama queen and Marshall would force his way out. If we could keep everyone healthy and bring in 2-3 playmakers on defense then I don't think this team is all that far away from winning. I really don't.

[Northman]

I dont think Sheff got a raw deal personally. I liked him as a player but he made it quite obvious about his displeasure of Jay getting moved and then with the talk of him wishing the season was over just infuriated me. Out of all of them he was the one i have the least sympathy for. With Jay and Brandon, there were contributing factors from those players as well as instigations by McD to why they arent here. Hillis got the rawest of deals because he was a team player who McD just didnt care about for whatever reason.

[Nomad]

Well, its 11 AM and so far no word that Mcdaniels has been fired. Would like to see this get done by the end of the day.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/morning-jolt/11/29/broncos-heat-jolt/index.html?xid=siextra_112910

:laugh:Don't hold your breath or put money on it because either you'll pass out or be broke!!

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Well maybe Bowlen rehires the Goodmans and Gruden and everything is peachy. Does Gruden get Monte Kiffen as well?

I doubt it, but Gruden didn't chase Monte Kiffin out of town because he was insecure and couldn't get along with him...

[BroncoNut]

I am definitely in that boat. Call it blind homerism. I put faith in McD that he had a plan, that he knew how to institute said plan and that part of that plan is getting rid of head cases. It didn't help that I thought Cutler was a head case to start with ....with all of his whining on the sidelines. The same with Marshall and his being one suspension away from a lost season. The one that I am truly embarrassed of having tried to stick up for is Hillis. He never should have gone anywhere and I'm the stupid one for trying to play the "well the coach says he's too stupid to play" card.

I backed McD because he was our coach. I backed McD because I initially bought into his way of thinking. I jumped off his bandwagon after continually seeing failure on every front of what he was attempting to do. I jumped off after realizing something I've always known...fix what's broken and if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
that's not being implemented I take it?

I'm not quite jumping of the wagon yet, but I can understand this line of thinking certainly. I mean how much crap can one take before jumping ship so to speack (ship being the JMcD bandwagon). I think I will alway have at least some support for him as HC, but it certainly isn't as strong as it was 58 weeks ago. I actually thought he was going to be a great HC at that time, and not just based on the winning record at the time. I also knew we weren't really that good. I actually liked that he got rid of Cutler for his antics and that we got the better of the deal.

[G_Money]

You are talking about the guy who had 4 starting QB's and wanted Plummer as well.

I like Gruden, I just don't know if he is the answer. BTW, I don't think a rudderless McD's is the answer either. He needs a GM who says, I disagree with your personnel decisions and no, Nolen will stay as the DC and he can blitz when he wants to.

Gruden alone can't be the answer. His choice for DC will matter greatly. His choice for QB will matter. The front office that helps rebuild the defense will matter.

I would be willing to suffer through another year of McDaniels if Bowlen hires somebody like Reggie McKenzie from Green Bay or Ari Nissim from the Jets as the GM. Give them a year to go through the organization, to run the draft, to hire a defensive coordinator and let Josh just coach the offense and keep the Head Coach title.

If they can't work out, fire Josh.

But since I can't see it working out with Josh, I'd just fire him anyway right now and then go get my GM without demanding that he give Josh an extra year because I'm not willing to pay the man not to coach.

~G

[CoachChaz]

I don't know, I think there is reason to be excited about the future... We're basically set on the offensive side of the ball from a personnel standpoint. WR corps is deep, the o-line is young, we've got a couple of capable QB's and a 1st rd RB (who probably needs a little more help).

John Lynch made a valid point that we were reconstructing the offense when we should have been focusing on the defense - but those are the breaks... No one could have predicted that Cutler would go all drama queen and Marshall would force his way out. If we could keep everyone healthy and bring in 2-3 playmakers on defense then I don't think this team is all that far away from winning. I really don't.

Ahhh...the voice of reason. Didnt you get the memo that there is no place for you here?

[frauschieze]

I'll go even more radical. I think he has now been such a disaster that right or wrong he will never get another shot as HC of an NFL franchise. He hasn't just been run o' the mill bad, he dips down into the Les Steckel/Frank Kush/Rich Kotite depths of legendary awfulness.

It might have been different with a strong GM to keep him in check and grow into the job. That Hoss done left the barn though.

I don't know that I go that far. He needs several more years back on the assistant coaching level. But I do think that the absolute best thing we can do for McD's long term future is to can him right now. It'll have so much more impact on him, especially when he has to consider that there's no viable candidate to replace him on staff right now. That would (I hope) destroy that need in him to be the one and only right person, and maybe give him another shot at a HC gig down the line. It would really depend on how he took it and approached the next phase of his career. If he played it right, it becomes a turning point that he can point back to and say (and prove) "I've learned from that. This is where I went wrong. And here's where I've proved I can do better." His biggest problem remains the simple management side of things. That CAN be taught.

[BigDaddyBronco]

Gruden alone can't be the answer. His choice for DC will matter greatly. His choice for QB will matter. The front office that helps rebuild the defense will matter.

I would be willing to suffer through another year of McDaniels if Bowlen hires somebody like Reggie McKenzie from Green Bay or Ari Nissim from the Jets as the GM. Give them a year to go through the organization, to run the draft, to hire a defensive coordinator and let Josh just coach the offense and keep the Head Coach title.

If they can't work out, fire Josh.

But since I can't see it working out with Josh, I'd just fire him anyway right now and then go get my GM without demanding that he give Josh an extra year because I'm not willing to pay the man not to coach.

~G
Again this is my point. If Gruden gets the same situation than Josh has, it's not likely that he will be significantly better. If Josh gets the framework you mention above, then he might be a decent HC. Obviously, Josh the HC/GM/OC/QB coach is a disaster and things should change. I just don't see anything happening or we would have never been in this position to begin with.

[Krugan]

Im not going to harp on what is already done.

The cutler, issue bugs me, not because I think it was a mistake, but the way it all went down.

It was messy and handled poorly all the way around.

It does lead one to believe that there is a tendency to have poor relations, from Mcd, and that is something that could and seems to have become a real issue.

[BroncoNut]

Im not going to harp on what is already done.

The cutler, issue bugs me, not because I think it was a mistake, but the way it all went down.

It was messy and handled poorly all the way around.
It does lead one to believe that there is a tendency to have poor relations, from Mcd, and that is something that could and seems to have become a real issue.

intentional or not, josh was misleading to some involved I suspect.

[GEM]

Ahhh...the voice of reason. Didnt you get the memo that there is no place for you here?

Eh, not so fast.....our Offense isn't set. Orton isn't a problem, but he isn't the solution. No one knows if Tebow is. The OLine is young but being forced to run a scheme that none of them are very good at. Our WR corps are pretty good and pretty deep. TE's are non existent in this scheme.

We had a set offense that was great at what they did...except for red zone. Cleaning up red zone scoring is a lot easier than retooling the entire offense, especially trying to fit an O into and X in terms of scheme and offensive line.

So we've retooled our offense twice now and the defense well still sucks and the draft picks we garnered for retooling the offense again are gone and well the defense still sucks. We need a whole lot more than 3 players. We possibly need another ILB, unless we can make it look like Ayers, Williams, Mays, Doom. Haggan is ok...we don't just need ok. Other than that, what is our depth? Defensive line, Williams is on the end of his career, need a replacement NT, plus depth. Bannon is possibly a keeper and the rotating of Fields, McBean, etc just isn't exciting at all. Secondary, Bailey may not even be back next year and looks to be slowing a bit. Dawkins, while a great leader is slowing. McBath looks to be good if he can stay healthy as depth. Hill is a centerfielder. Have you ever seen another S sit 30 yards back and do nothing? Exciting. Goodman can't stay on the field. I like our depth there a bit more than other defensive positions. Cox is young and is making mistakes, hopefully he gets better. Syd looks alright so far in the nickel. Bruton is a special teams ace but who knows if he can make the push for starter. Woodyard is another special teams ace, but again who knows if he can make the push for starter.

So all in all....not a whole lot of hope there, yet.

[Slick]

I don't know, I think there is reason to be excited about the future... We're basically set on the offensive side of the ball from a personnel standpoint. WR corps is deep, the o-line is young, we've got a couple of capable QB's and a 1st rd RB (who probably needs a little more help).

John Lynch made a valid point that we were reconstructing the offense when we should have been focusing on the defense - but those are the breaks... No one could have predicted that Cutler would go all drama queen and Marshall would force his way out. If we could keep everyone healthy and bring in 2-3 playmakers on defense then I don't think this team is all that far away from winning. I really don't.

Lynch was spot on.

I don't see us as being set on offense though. I think we need another starting quality guard and a RT(I wouldn't extend or rely on Ryan Harris)

RB and TE are needs as well IMO. I also think we could do better at QB.

The defense is at least two drafts away as well at the very least. I just don't see it Buffcake.

[CoachChaz]

Eh, not so fast.....our Offense isn't set. Orton isn't a problem, but he isn't the solution. No one knows if Tebow is. The OLine is young but being forced to run a scheme that none of them are very good at. Our WR corps are pretty good and pretty deep. TE's are non existent in this scheme.

We had a set offense that was great at what they did...except for red zone. Cleaning up red zone scoring is a lot easier than retooling the entire offense, especially trying to fit an O into and X in terms of scheme and offensive line.

So we've retooled our offense twice now and the defense well still sucks and the draft picks we garnered for retooling the offense again are gone and well the defense still sucks. We need a whole lot more than 3 players. We possibly need another ILB, unless we can make it look like Ayers, Williams, Mays, Doom. Haggan is ok...we don't just need ok. Other than that, what is our depth? Defensive line, Williams is on the end of his career, need a replacement NT, plus depth. Bannon is possibly a keeper and the rotating of Fields, McBean, etc just isn't exciting at all. Secondary, Bailey may not even be back next year and looks to be slowing a bit. Dawkins, while a great leader is slowing. McBath looks to be good if he can stay healthy as depth. Hill is a centerfielder. Have you ever seen another S sit 30 yards back and do nothing? Exciting. Goodman can't stay on the field. I like our depth there a bit more than other defensive positions. Cox is young and is making mistakes, hopefully he gets better. Syd looks alright so far in the nickel. Bruton is a special teams ace but who knows if he can make the push for starter. Woodyard is another special teams ace, but again who knows if he can make the push for starter.

So all in all....not a whole lot of hope there, yet.

Maybe the OL isnt good at the scheme because they are young. It is a possibility and as long as it's a possibility, we cant dismiss it. I'd like to think that once they gain the experience, they'll be fine. Tebow is no different from any other rookie QB. Who knows what we'll get. He could bust or boom...we just wont know for awhile. Moreno behind a seasoned line and geting more than 12-15 carries should be much better. I dont know that anyone can say they havent seen improvement in him from last year. Receivers...I guess you have more faith in them than me. Lloyd is a product of the system, Gaffney is Gaffney, Royal might be good or he might be another WR that has a good first year and then fizzles...but I wont immediately blame that on McD. Thomas has potential if he ever gets an intense bone in his body and I still dont see Decker ever amounting to much.

So...it's the defense. We cant say McD hasnt spent money on that side of the ball. It's not like there have been a ton of top FA's willing to play for what we could offer. And if Marshall could act right...maybe we could have spent a draft pick on defense instead of Thomas. If the OL was worth a damn, maybe we wouldnt have had to draft two guys to fill in.

Dont get me wrong...I'm not saying McD is the answer and I'm not saying he's the problem. I'm just taking an objective approach. This off-season will be very telling for me. Now that McD has his offensive pieces in place, there isnt any excuse not to focus entirely on defense. If he chooses not to do that, then we have a problem. But let's not pretend that our offense was perfect and ready to roll for the next 10 years when he came in. Changes had to be made on both sides of the ball and as I've said a few times...all those necessary changes wont occur in 24 months.

Adding a solid FA or two on defense, getting injured players back and having a solid draft should bump the defense up a few notches. If the young offense improves and scores 4 more points a game and the defense gives up 4 less per game, then it's a step in the right direction. Sometimes you have to take 1 step backward in order to take 2 steps forward.

We will see. If nothing changes or improves after next season, then I will join the "Kill Josh" club. You have my word