PDA

View Full Version : Poll - Spygate II: Should Josh McDaniels be fired? (everyone can vote, registration not necessary)



Tned
11-27-2010, 01:22 PM
Ok, there are a lot of discussions, and I hate to start another, but we need a poll on this.

Mike
11-27-2010, 01:24 PM
He should be fired, for what he has done to the Broncos combined with this.

MileHighCrew
11-27-2010, 01:25 PM
I would have voted to fire him before this. Knowing he is a cheater and a bad one at that, doesn't make me want to keep him more

Northman
11-27-2010, 01:26 PM
Even if he didnt request that it be taped he knew it existed and failed to report it. He is just as guilty as the guy who shot the film. He needs to be replaced.

Nomad
11-27-2010, 01:26 PM
No tolerance for this bullshit.....Mcdaniels should be fired!!

spikerman
11-27-2010, 01:26 PM
Without question.

bahama0811
11-27-2010, 01:28 PM
Yes, he should be fired.

Nomad
11-27-2010, 01:33 PM
He should be fired, for what he has done to the Broncos combined with this.

I'm sure you are going to get the people who were on the fence, like myself, to go over to the no support/fire McDaniels side!


At least you mods and Tned are nice enough to let us voice our opinions here because at the mother site, BM, they are deleting negatives about mcDaniels and Bowlen left and right! I'm not dogging them but thanking you guys for letting us vent because this is pathetic IMO!!

Northman
11-27-2010, 01:34 PM
At least you mods and Tned are nice enough to let us voice our opinions here because at the mother site, BM, they are deleting negatives about mcDaniels and Bowlen left and right! I'm not dogging them but thanking you guys for letting us vent because this is pathetic IMO!!

THAT is even more pathetic. Thank god this forum exists.

MileHighCrew
11-27-2010, 01:39 PM
Are the 3 votes to keep him from KCL, Devilspawn and WTE?

LordTrychon
11-27-2010, 01:40 PM
I'm sure you are going to get the people who were on the fence, like myself, to go over to the no support/fire McDaniels side!


At least you mods and Tned are nice enough to let us voice our opinions here because at the mother site, BM, they are deleting negatives about mcDaniels and Bowlen left and right! I'm not dogging them but thanking you guys for letting us vent because this is pathetic IMO!!

I beg to differ.

If a post or thread violates the rules, it is deleted.

I'm pretty sure one of the many complaints about the 'other' forum for so long was the amount of whining and bitching that goes on.

Anyone can take a trip over there and see there is plenty of dissent.

Claiming that we're deleting all such posts is wrong. Look for yourselves.

TXBRONC
11-27-2010, 01:40 PM
Although it can't be proven McDaniels viewed the tape he's still responsible for hiring that turd knowing full well that he had been involved in last scandal like this his former employer. He is culpable. He's hypocrite when he speaks of integrity because he has none.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

spikerman
11-27-2010, 01:41 PM
Are the 3 votes to keep him from KCL, Devilspawn and WTE?

I remember Tom Jackson saying a couple of years ago on ESPN that as a former Bronco he hoped Al Davis would never die. My guess is that the rest of the AFCW feels the same way about Bowlen coming to his senses.

MileHighCrew
11-27-2010, 01:43 PM
^^^my point exactly

dogfish
11-27-2010, 01:48 PM
yes-- and you shoulda made it a public poll, IMO. . .

Tned
11-27-2010, 01:49 PM
Are the 3 votes to keep him from KCL, Devilspawn and WTE?

I voted no. I don't like public polls, because it can influence how people vote, but I'm fine saying I'm not ready to jump on the fire McD bandwagon yet.

Dreadnought
11-27-2010, 01:52 PM
I voted no. I don't like public polls, because it can influence how people vote, but I'm fine saying I'm not ready to jump on the fire McD bandwagon yet.

Tar n' Feathers and run nekkd through the streets of Denver to be pelted with filth. Those are not extreme enough T :D

TXBRONC
11-27-2010, 01:53 PM
yes-- and you shoulda made it a public poll, IMO. . .

I don't think it's to hard to figure out who would vote no.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

MileHighCrew
11-27-2010, 01:55 PM
I voted no. I don't like public polls, because it can influence how people vote, but I'm fine saying I'm not ready to jump on the fire McD bandwagon yet.

I was just joking with who voted. One your other point thought what will it take.
Really 5-15, cheating, running off your hero Hillis, Alphonzo Smith..... what will it take to jump on the bandwagon? I think I am pretty level headed but C'mon man!!!!

Tned
11-27-2010, 01:58 PM
I was just joking with who voted. One your other point thought what will it take.
Really 5-15, cheating, running off your hero Hillis, Alphonzo Smith..... what will it take to jump on the bandwagon? I think I am pretty level headed but C'mon man!!!!

Come on, I'm not going to say I told you so to all of you that gleefully cheered McD's VERY questionable personnel moves (ooops, I hope that doesn't count), but once we've gone this deep into the bowels of NFL hell, where we are looking up at teams like Buffalo, Detroit, St. Louis and the Niners, then I think our quickest route out of hell is sticking with McDaniels.

Northman
11-27-2010, 01:59 PM
I wont be happy until this POS shit is out of here. This is the straw that broke the camels back for me.

UrbanBounca
11-27-2010, 02:01 PM
I would rather go 0-16, than be called a cheater. He has to go. This franchise is now a joke to everyone.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

MileHighCrew
11-27-2010, 02:02 PM
When the devil himself drags you to the depths of hell you don't count on him to turn around and bring you back. You get away from that devil and find a saint to save you from hell.
If you are an alcoholic you don't drink more to cure your sickness. If you are dying form cancer you don't go from one pack of cigarettes a day to 2

Tned
11-27-2010, 02:03 PM
I should clarify, I am not ok with cheating. If Bowlen/Ellis think that McDaniels did in fact cheat, order/suggest the video guy did it, etc., then he needs to go. However, if they believe him and don't think he encouraged the filming or watched it, then this alone will not flip me to the "fire McDaniels" side.

UrbanBounca
11-27-2010, 02:04 PM
I should clarify, I am not ok with cheating. If Bowlen/Ellis think that McDaniels did in fact cheat, order/suggest the video guy did it, etc., then he needs to go. However, if they believe him and don't think he encouraged the filming or watched it, then this alone will not flip me to the "fire McDaniels" side.

What would it take?
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

frauschieze
11-27-2010, 02:06 PM
Not reporting it is the final nail in the coffin for me. He's preached too much about doing the right thing to get a pass.

I would have imagined that given the circumstances surrounding the Patriots that he'd want to go overboard in distancing himself from any form of video tape impropriety. He didn't. And that is too much coincidence for me to swallow.

CHARLIEADAMSFAN
11-27-2010, 02:10 PM
I;ve never been embarrassed to be a Broncos fan. I've been an Army football fan my whole life and have attended nearly every home game for years. I sat through winless seasons and blowout losses to weak Division 1-AA teams. I can take losing. This is absolutely embarrassing. I just cannot believe this. Maybe this is more widespread in the NFL than I think but wow I just am hurt. Even with this we couldn't win the damn game.
Something needs to be done and it needs to come from the top down. I'm not up on who has done what exactly everyone in the front office has done partially because I'm a busy student on the other side of the country. We need to do something. I'm ashamed of my Broncos gear right now. It will pass, but I'm just hurt right now.

Northman
11-27-2010, 02:10 PM
Not reporting it is the final nail in the coffin for me. He's preached too much about doing the right thing to get a pass.



EXACTLY. He is equally as guilty as the other guy for not reporting it.

dogfish
11-27-2010, 02:10 PM
Not reporting it is the final nail in the coffin for me. He's preached too much about doing the right thing to get a pass.

I would have imagined that given the circumstances surrounding the Patriots that he'd want to go overboard in distancing himself from any form of video tape impropriety. He didn't. And that is too much coincidence for me to swallow.

something is VERY rotten in denmark, huh?

PAINTERDAVE
11-27-2010, 02:11 PM
It says a lot about a man...
the people he surrounds himself with.

"Birds of a feather, flock together".

I don't know what he knew when he knew it...
the simple fact that someone he brought aboard from NE would think...
"let's do it again... I'll show it to Coach and we will get an edge.."

That alone in and of itself casts a shadow across McD's regime.

Harry Truman said...
"The buck stops here."

You can't be the all powerful, exalted Grand Vizer...
and then turn around and blame the minions for acting
within the framework of what you have created...
and expect no stain upon your own hands.

Or maybe you can?

Tned
11-27-2010, 02:13 PM
What would it take?
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Assuming Bowlen/Ellis believe his story on this, and this is behind us.

I think he gets to finish this season, really needs to be playing some young guys getting them experience, but then if I was Bowlen/Ellis I would have a long talk with him about what Josh's next steps were to get the team back to winning. If I liked his plan, I would let him have the third year. If I didn't, I would replace him.

I have said since the day McDaniels was hired was that the "most likely" scenario was that he would be fired in 2-3 years, and it could start the Broncos on a coaching carousel. As I pointed out at the time, it wasn't because I didn't believe McDaniels could be an HC, but instead that is typically what happens, especially with first time HCs.

The problem that you run in to is that most of the time an HC is fired after having made major roster changes to fit his scheme/vision for the team. When you fire him and bring on the next guy, he often starts that process over, keeping some of the players, but mostly remaking the roster in "his" vision.

IMHO, Bowlen/Ellis need to be convinced that McDaniels vision is wrong, before firing him, because 'restarting' the process with the odds being that the new HC will be fired in 2-3 years, may not be the answer.

BORDERLINE
11-27-2010, 02:37 PM
I'm split...I'm leaning towards the popular opinion which is fire him....
I just don't want the broncos to be a team like the redskins/raiders always changing coaches never having a stable precense at coach...
this whole cheating thing is just crazy he put us in a bad position by hiring the guy with ties to N.E spygate....
We lost to SF so there is a chance he din't see it..
Now if he did and we still lost.....Get Him The Hell Out Of Here!!!!!

jhildebrand
11-27-2010, 02:56 PM
He should be fired today make that five minutes ago! I question how much influence Bowlen truly has within his own organization. I wonder if he has anybody else there looking after Bowlen's interests.

Lancane
11-27-2010, 03:04 PM
I've mentioned that stripping him of power, and hiring others to help in several areas would be a big help and maybe worth giving him a one-year shot. In light of this...

I have to say fire his ass...

Ravage!!!
11-27-2010, 03:05 PM
I can't believe anyone TRULY believes that McD didn't know anything, didn't view the tape, and it is ALL on the video dude. That is EXACTLY the response I expected to hear when we first read of the allegations, because its the EXACT response that Belicheck used. Strange how that happened.


This was the JOKE that people used when they saw how much McD wanted to copy Belicheck. Now the JOKE has become reality. Now the only JOKE left, is this team under his command.

BORDERLINE
11-27-2010, 03:09 PM
Just saw the Press Conference and when asked WHY he din't report the incident right away he simply said "I Made A Mistake"....not sh*t sherlock....
Great questions where asked by the media and he simply shy'd away from some deffering them to Ellis....
Now i'm fully on the FIRE MCD side, we cannot keep this guy and his MISTAKES anymore...had this not happen he might have been here next year...
I MADE A MISTAKE is not the right answer...but hey at least he can admit to one
unlike the HIllis/Cassel phone call/drafting smith/quinn

Nomad
11-27-2010, 03:09 PM
I beg to differ.

If a post or thread violates the rules, it is deleted.

I'm pretty sure one of the many complaints about the 'other' forum for so long was the amount of whining and bitching that goes on.

Anyone can take a trip over there and see there is plenty of dissent.

Claiming that we're deleting all such posts is wrong. Look for yourselves.

Perhaps, I was wrong to lump all the mods together but a certain mod there thinks he's god and will delete as he feels and sure is making a name for himself as being so and any poster over there knows it's true! I said something here which I said there and it disappeared and I was told it was that certain mod by posters. I am not wrong and sorry to have thrown you under the bus but I was thanking the ones here for letting us speak!

Nomad
11-27-2010, 03:16 PM
Assuming Bowlen/Ellis believe his story on this, and this is behind us.

.

This is pretty much what has happened and it's a memory for Bowlen and Ellis! The only way Bowlen will realize something is wrong is for those games at home to be empty and blackouts start occuring! I would never do that to the players so it's hard regardless my support for McDaniels is gone!!

BORDERLINE
11-27-2010, 03:18 PM
Ellis just said this incident does not sway the opinion of Pat Bowlen on Josh McDaniels....
Now ain't that some BS...

OPEN YOUR EYES PAT

Cut ties with this incident by choppin off the HEAD

Northman
11-27-2010, 03:18 PM
I can't believe anyone TRULY believes that McD didn't know anything, didn't view the tape, and it is ALL on the video dude.


Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

Bosco
11-27-2010, 03:24 PM
Under what grounds? His only misconduct was failure to immediately report the violation to the NFL. He ultimately reported it within the team and then the team reported it to the NFL, cooperated with the investigation and fired the offending party.

The punishment levied by the NFL is fair and just given the circumstances of the offense and that should be the end of the story.


Although it can't be proven McDaniels viewed the tape he's still responsible for hiring that turd knowing full well that he had been involved in last scandal like this his former employer. He is culpable. He's hypocrite when he speaks of integrity because he has none.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Steve Scarnecchia was not with the Patriots when Spygate happened. He left the Patriots in 2005 and went to the University of Colorado and was actually with the Jets (the team that uncovered the spygate ordeal) when that all went down. Until now, he was never found to have taken part in any illegal taping activities.

Lancane
11-27-2010, 03:24 PM
Ellis just said this incident does not sway the opinion of Pat Bowlen on Josh McDaniels....
Now ain't that some BS...

OPEN YOUR EYES PAT

Cut ties with this incident by choppin off the HEAD

This organization is headed towards the sewer via the shitter, McDaniels is leading the crap, Ellis is helping flush the commode and Pat Bowlen's not even given us the decency of a good ass whipe.

Buff
11-27-2010, 03:29 PM
I honestly don't believe McDaniels would have the video guy film walkthroughs of the opposing team after they came down so hard on Bellichick. Maybe I'm just naive.

I think the video guy probably thought he was doing McD a favor... It just doesn't seem like we would be turning ourselves in to the NFL if we thought there was a wider conspiracy afoot.

I'm still in McD's corner... I just don't believe things are as bad as they seem with this situation, or in general.

BORDERLINE
11-27-2010, 03:31 PM
Under what grounds? His only misconduct was failure to immediately report the violation to the NFL. He ultimately reported it within the team and then the team reported it to the NFL, cooperated with the investigation and fired the offending party.

The punishment levied by the NFL is fair and just given the circumstances of the offense and that should be the end of the story.



Steve Scarnecchia was not with the Patriots when Spygate happened. He left the Patriots in 2005 and went to the University of Colorado and was actually with the Jets (the team that uncovered the spygate ordeal) when that all went down. Until now, he was never found to have taken part in any illegal taping activities.

WHY din't he report it????
WHAT took him so long???
seems like the videographer knew McD would be inclined/interested to see some footage...

BORDERLINE
11-27-2010, 03:38 PM
I honestly don't believe McDaniels would have the video guy film walkthroughs of the opposing team after they came down so hard on Bellichick. Maybe I'm just naive.

I think the video guy probably thought he was doing McD a favor... It just doesn't seem like we would be turning ourselves in to the NFL if we thought there was a wider conspiracy afoot.

I'm still in McD's corner... I just don't believe things are as bad as they seem with this situation, or in general.

A rogue videographer??? How many of them are in the NFL...


Things are as BAD as they seem..
Trading Hillis for a 3rd String QB
5-15 in our last 20 games
59-14 massacre at Mile High
Taping a 1 win SF team

Now just think how many NFL fans will insult us Broncos fan with cheater slurs

Can you say we(broncos) din't do it???:tsk:

Bosco
11-27-2010, 03:41 PM
WHY din't he report it????
WHAT took him so long???
seems like the videographer knew McD would be inclined/interested to see some footage...

He did report it. Our own team was the one who brought this to the NFL's attention and cooperated with the investigation. As for why he didn't report it immediately, your guess is as good as mine. I really don't care either way. The NFL fined him for his technical violation of league rules and there isn't a whole lot more to debate as far as I'm concerned.

BORDERLINE
11-27-2010, 03:48 PM
As for why he didn't report it immediately, your guess is as good as mine. I really don't care either way. The NFL fined him for his technical violation of league rules and there isn't a whole lot more to debate as far as I'm concerned.

Well I DO CARE...I give 2 sh*ts about this team if not I would not be posting with all you guys.

This is a cloud of SHAME that will hang over the Broncos until McD leaves.
I supported him being here next year, but this incident cut it short.
The Broncos did report it and kudos to them, but they obviously knew that by keeping something like this is the closet it would eventually come out in the future and could lead to even more of a mess.

elsid13
11-27-2010, 03:55 PM
At this point, like a train wreck I want to see how bad it can get.

Bosco
11-27-2010, 04:09 PM
Well I DO CARE...I give 2 sh*ts about this team if not I would not be posting with all you guys. Then my suggestion would be to seek employment with the NFL in a position where you can view all the official documents related to the investigation.

That, or wait until some reporter asks McDaniels that question, which will probably happen sooner or later. Until then, all you can do is speculate.


This is a cloud of SHAME that will hang over the Broncos until McD leaves.
I supported him being here next year, but this incident cut it short.
The Broncos did report it and kudos to them, but they obviously knew that by keeping something like this is the closet it would eventually come out in the future and could lead to even more of a mess. Oh please. During our Super Bowl years we not only got nailed for salary cap violations but also for the greased up jerseys in Divisional round of the playoffs. These were real, deliberate and tangible actions that came out into the open. I think if we as a fanbase can handle that, we can handle the case of a rogue employee who was dealt with internally.

Tned
11-27-2010, 04:10 PM
Under what grounds? His only misconduct was failure to immediately report the violation to the NFL. He ultimately reported it within the team and then the team reported it to the NFL, cooperated with the investigation and fired the offending party.

The punishment levied by the NFL is fair and just given the circumstances of the offense and that should be the end of the story.


Currently, there is ZERO indication that McDaniels reported it to anyone in the team. Ellis and the NFL have refused to say who notified team execs, stating the NFL's anonymous reporting policy.

Bosco
11-27-2010, 04:29 PM
Currently, there is ZERO indication that McDaniels reported it to anyone in the team. Ellis and the NFL have refused to say who notified team execs, stating the NFL's anonymous reporting policy.

It's not real hard to figure out. By their own admission the tape was brought to McDaniels so either he or the video director himself brought it to the attention of the rest of the team. The later isn't very likely and the former would have almost certainly resulted in a much stiffer punishment.

Tned
11-27-2010, 04:37 PM
It's not real hard to figure out. By their own admission the tape was brought to McDaniels so either he or the video director himself brought it to the attention of the rest of the team. The later isn't very likely and the former would have almost certainly resulted in a much stiffer punishment.

That, my friend, is what's called an assumption. I know some like to present assumptions and opinions as facts, but that doesn't make them so.

Let's look at your assumption.

First, you present as fact that ONLY McDaniels and the Video director knew or could have learned of the taping. There is nothing to indicate this is a 'fact'.

Second, if McDaniels was the person that ultimately told the Broncos execs there would be no need for anonymity. So, this leans towards your 'assumption' being incorrect.

BORDERLINE
11-27-2010, 04:47 PM
Oh please. During our Super Bowl years we not only got nailed for salary cap violations but also for the greased up jerseys in Divisional round of the playoffs. These were real, deliberate and tangible actions that came out into the open. I think if we as a fanbase can handle that, we can handle the case of a rogue employee who was dealt with internally.

people are a little more patient and nice when your going to the playoffs and winning super bowls, incidents like salary cap violations are more easy to swallow. Not saying they are acceptable but you don't have a fan base calling for the coaches head in those times.

I was like 12 years old when they played the Chiefs in the Divisonal round. I watched alot of football programs and I never saw anything on that subject. I googled it and found only messageboard comments about that game. What did the NFL do???

camdisco24
11-27-2010, 04:49 PM
I also supported McD coming back for one more season. You know, 3rd strike you're out kind of thing... Well this equals three strikes by itself. Time for McD to go. I'm embarrassed for the team and ourselves, and im ashamed of Josh McDaniels.

I personally, will no longer refer to him as coach McDaniels. I know that doesn't change a thing to at the Broncos HQ, but I've lost all respect for him as the "coach".

Northman
11-27-2010, 04:50 PM
I was like 12 years old when they played the Chiefs in the Divisonal round. I watched alot of football programs and I never saw anything on that subject. I googled it and found only messageboard comments about that game. What did the NFL do???

Yea, he wasnt totally correct on his statement there. There was some vaseline on the Oline's arms in that game in which Shanahan stated "we use it too keep warm". I never bought that excuse but that was caught early in the game and refs made them wipe it off. At the end of the day Denver won that game on the field and won their championships without the help of illegal video of opposing teams.

BORDERLINE
11-27-2010, 05:09 PM
Yea, he wasnt totally correct on his statement there. There was some vaseline on the Oline's arms in that game in which Shanahan stated "we use it too keep warm". I never bought that excuse but that was caught early in the game and refs made them wipe it off. At the end of the day Denver won that game on the field and won their championships without the help of illegal video of opposing teams.

I googled vaseline and there are many links that state it does help you stay warm in cold weather. Runners usually put some on there face when running in cold conditions.

Your right tough....I don't really buy it either.

Northman
11-27-2010, 05:12 PM
I googled vaseline and there are many links that state it does help you stay warm in cold weather. Runners usually put some on there face when running in cold conditions.

Your right tough....I don't really buy it either.

Even if Shanny was telling the truth i believe having any substance on you is illegal per the rules. But, if some want to give McD a pass for being naive in this case (even though he knows first hand in recent years how illegal it is) than Shanahan can get a pass for being "naive".

Krugan
11-27-2010, 05:16 PM
Come on, I'm not going to say I told you so to all of you that gleefully cheered McD's VERY questionable personnel moves (ooops, I hope that doesn't count), but once we've gone this deep into the bowels of NFL hell, where we are looking up at teams like Buffalo, Detroit, St. Louis and the Niners, then I think our quickest route out of hell is sticking with McDaniels.

Im just curious, how is it that you feel its going to get better when every week is a new low?

And the worst part, we havent hit bottom yet, it can get worse. This is not a jab or call out, im seriously curious why you would still hold onto the thought of not changing.

D. Moore
11-27-2010, 05:22 PM
Terminated as soon as now. I dont know if this was said or not but as soon as I heard this I thought about the KC game and why their coach acted like he did. Imo I feel he should of never been brought in here. We needed a punch you in your mouth style coach and got a finesse not ready coach. Bowlen should be embarassed
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Tned
11-27-2010, 05:26 PM
Im just curious, how is it that you feel its going to get better when every week is a new low?

And the worst part, we havent hit bottom yet, it can get worse. This is not a jab or call out, im seriously curious why you would still hold onto the thought of not changing.

To be clear, I was in the "be careful what you wish for" group with those that called for and then got Shanny's firing (I used those words).

Whle I have liked much of what McDaniels has done, I have been VERY critical of his personnel moves (Cutler, Marshall, A. Smith, Hillis, etc.). I do NOT think he should have blown up the offense, and doing so set these team back a couple years.

Now, having said all of that, the Broncos management let him go the scorched earth route of completely rebuilding the roster. Presumably, that means they bought into his plan. So, pulling the plug now, and having the next coach come in and re-blowup the roster to bring in players for his scheme/vision, will just further delay the turn around.

The ONLY reason that McDaniels should be fired right now is if Bowlen/Ellis don't believe that his plan for rebuilding the roster is moving forward and likely to turn the team around in the next season or so.

Bosco
11-27-2010, 05:32 PM
That, my friend, is what's called an assumption. I know some like to present assumptions and opinions as facts, but that doesn't make them so.

Let's look at your assumption.

First, you present as fact that ONLY McDaniels and the Video director knew or could have learned of the taping. There is nothing to indicate this is a 'fact'.

Second, if McDaniels was the person that ultimately told the Broncos execs there would be no need for anonymity. So, this leans towards your 'assumption' being incorrect.

No shit? I would have figured that my qualifiers on my reasoning would have made it clear that it was speculation based on the few facts we knew.



people are a little more patient and nice when your going to the playoffs and winning super bowls, incidents like salary cap violations are more easy to swallow. Not saying they are acceptable but you don't have a fan base calling for the coaches head in those times.

I was like 12 years old when they played the Chiefs in the Divisonal round. I watched alot of football programs and I never saw anything on that subject. I googled it and found only messageboard comments about that game. What did the NFL do???

So you're ok with blatant and deliberate rules violations as long as they're coming during a time when the team is a Super Bowl contender, but one rogue employee making a video recording against league rules that was never even viewed by the coaching staff is justification for all this teen level angst?

Makes sense.

As for the jersey fiasco, reference this article here (http://articles.latimes.com/2006/aug/20/sports/sp-cheathow20) where Schlereth openly admits to it.


Consider Mark Schlereth, who spent six seasons as a Denver Broncos offensive lineman, protecting quarterback John Elway en route to two Super Bowl victories. In a 1998 playoff game at Kansas City, Schlereth and his fellow linemen coated their arms and the backs of their jerseys in Vaseline. The Chiefs' defenders couldn't grab onto the slimy Broncos and quickly complained to officials. It was quite a scene, Schlereth recalls, as officials used towels on the sidelines to wipe down the oily visitors in a game Denver would ultimately win, 14-10, on its way to a Super Bowl triumph.


"Did I grease up my jersey, and use sticky substances on my gloves? You're damn right," Schlereth said recently. "What you call cheating is a fine line. It's an interesting line. What we did, in the locker room, is called being creative. Certain cheating is snickered at, or applauded."

Krugan
11-27-2010, 05:34 PM
To be clear, I was in the "be careful what you wish for" group with those that called for and then got Shanny's firing (I used those words).

Whle I have liked much of what McDaniels has done, I have been VERY critical of his personnel moves (Cutler, Marshall, A. Smith, Hillis, etc.). I do NOT think he should have blown up the offense, and doing so set these team back a couple years.

Now, having said all of that, the Broncos management let him go the scorched earth route of completely rebuilding the roster. Presumably, that means they bought into his plan. So, pulling the plug now, and having the next coach come in and re-blowup the roster to bring in players for his scheme/vision, will just further delay the turn around.

The ONLY reason that McDaniels should be fired right now is if Bowlen/Ellis don't believe that his plan for rebuilding the roster is moving forward and likely to turn the team around in the next season or so.

Fair enough.

Although, and I cant honestly say I would be happy with the next guy either, but i cant see this getting fixed before he gets canned, and we will then be out whatever extra time her has, plue the rebuilding time.

such a mess

Tned
11-27-2010, 05:37 PM
No shit? I would have figured that my qualifiers on my reasoning would have made it clear that it was speculation based on the few facts we knew.


Honestly? No. Typically, you present your opinion as the ONLY fact, which is how I read this one. Sorry, if I mistook it and you were simply saying this was one possibility.

Tned
11-27-2010, 05:39 PM
Fair enough.

Although, and I cant honestly say I would be happy with the next guy either, but i cant see this getting fixed before he gets canned, and we will then be out whatever extra time her has, plue the rebuilding time.

such a mess

Yep, I can't say that I see a light at the end of the tunnel yet. Just keeping the faith.

Qdini5
11-27-2010, 07:57 PM
I am a loyal fan of the Broncos for the last 25 years of my life. I can say that Josh should be fired for quite a few reasons: 1. Brandon Marshall 2. Peyton Hillis 3. He truly wouldn't know a super star if they took a shit on his chest. Not to mention the Broncos organization will always be looked upon as a team that has to cheat to win. I hate to say it be who ever hired this preteen scrub of a coach needs to be shot because he just set our team back by 3 years due to his poor choices he made. Correct me if I am wrong but just 2 years ago we were 1 year away for a Championship but now who knows how long it will be before we see the Super Bowl. I just hope and pray that he doesn't **** up our next best thing (Tebow) cuz I can see it now in the off season. "The Broncos are trading Tim Tebow. Please dont allow this kid to **** up a class ac organization. Do something Pat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

KCL
11-27-2010, 08:05 PM
Ok, there are a lot of discussions, and I hate to start another, but we need a poll on this.

Are you going to send this to the FO? :lol:

KCL
11-27-2010, 08:06 PM
I would have voted to fire him before this. Knowing he is a cheater and a bad one at that, doesn't make me want to keep him more

Too funny!!!

KCL
11-27-2010, 08:09 PM
Are the 3 votes to keep him from KCL, Devilspawn and WTE?

LMAO!!! I think he should be given several more chances to turn the team around.

Tned
11-27-2010, 08:10 PM
Are you going to send this to the FO? :lol:

Sorry you felt a need to make this about me... :coffee:

KCL
11-27-2010, 08:13 PM
It says a lot about a man...
the people he surrounds himself with.

"Birds of a feather, flock together".

I don't know what he knew when he knew it...
the simple fact that someone he brought aboard from NE would think...
"let's do it again... I'll show it to Coach and we will get an edge.."

That alone in and of itself casts a shadow across McD's regime.

Harry Truman said...
"The buck stops here."

You can't be the all powerful, exalted Grand Vizer...
and then turn around and blame the minions for acting
within the framework of what you have created...
and expect no stain upon your own hands.

Or maybe you can?

Why would you need an edge against SF? Oh nevermind...;)

Dzone
11-27-2010, 08:20 PM
Williamson at espn writes that this infraction may give just cause to voiding Mcds contract...if he does get canned, I hope they get someone good..that would suck to make another blunder in a coach hire.

and losing the 2011 1st round pick would be devastating

KCL
11-27-2010, 08:20 PM
He should be fired today make that five minutes ago! I question how much influence Bowlen truly has within his own organization. I wonder if he has anybody else there looking after Bowlen's interests.

I was wondering and I guess I could look it up..does he have any sons that are involved with the team at all?Or daughters for that matter.

Nomad
11-27-2010, 08:28 PM
Sorry you felt a need to make this about me... :coffee:

So are you being persecuted....just like that "banned" poster!!:pound:

KCL
11-27-2010, 08:29 PM
Sorry you felt a need to make this about me... :coffee:

Oh Good Lord Tned...my post wasn't ANYTHING like what you posted to me in the other thread.

Tned
11-27-2010, 08:31 PM
So are you being persecuted....just like that "banned" poster!!:pound:

If I am, will you come to my rescue... ;)

:elefant:

Nomad
11-27-2010, 08:33 PM
If I am, will you come to my rescue... ;)

:elefant:

You damn right I will regardless if you throw me under the bus in doing so!!


BTW, it was a friendly jab back!!

Tned
11-27-2010, 08:40 PM
You damn right I will regardless if you throw me under the bus in doing so!!


BTW, it was a friendly jab back!!


I can take a joke, no sweat.

By the way, the 30 day ban I'm issueing is just a friendly jab back...

:coffee:




:laugh: :lol: :laugh:

BeefStew25
11-27-2010, 09:25 PM
Hire a true GM and let him decide. At the least McD needs to get his nuts clipped.

Joel
11-27-2010, 09:40 PM
I've disagreed with nearly every decision McDaniels has made except the 3-4 D and Moreno, but I backed him because he's the coach and I think he deserved time to prove himself. Well, he's apparently proven himself a cheater, and I see no reason to back that. He's welcome to destroy his career with my blessing, but he's not welcome to take the Broncos down with him.

I Eat Staples
11-27-2010, 09:45 PM
He should be fired regardless of this issue.

atwater27
11-27-2010, 09:47 PM
I actually voted no as the question was framed, as a punishment for the taping thing. Actually, I wouldn't blame McD too much for that, maybe for hiring the guy in the first place, but not for what he did. Oh no, he waited a week to report the matter.

Now do I want him fired at the end of the season? Answer now? yes. That answer could change depending on how the rest of the season plays out. But it would have to be a palpable, impressive change than what has happened up to now.

claymore
11-27-2010, 09:53 PM
I actually voted no as the question was framed, as a punishment for the taping thing. Actually, I wouldn't blame McD too much for that, maybe for hiring the guy in the first place, but not for what he did. Oh no, he waited a week to report the matter.

Now do I want him fired at the end of the season? Answer now? yes. That answer could change depending on how the rest of the season plays out. But it would have to be a palpable, impressive change than what has happened up to now.

Dont split ranks! We need to make a strong push here!

TXBRONC
11-27-2010, 10:15 PM
I actually voted no as the question was framed, as a punishment for the taping thing. Actually, I wouldn't blame McD too much for that, maybe for hiring the guy in the first place, but not for what he did. Oh no, he waited a week to report the matter.

Now do I want him fired at the end of the season? Answer now? yes. That answer could change depending on how the rest of the season plays out. But it would have to be a palpable, impressive change than what has happened up to now.

I voted that he should be fired because this guy was hired by McDaniels and he knew full well the man's history.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

girler
11-27-2010, 10:31 PM
I gave McDaniels every opportunity to prove himself. Even though this isn't "supposed" to be on his head, I feel the buck stops on him. He has no credit nor credibility with me.

jhildebrand
11-27-2010, 10:43 PM
but not for what he did. Oh no, he waited a week to report the matter.


But the problem here is it appears something precipitated McDaniels finally getting off his assets and reporting it. Otherwise, there is a good chance it wouldn't have been reported. Then you have to question if the filming helped lead to a beat down of the chiefs or if it would continue!!!!

atwater27
11-28-2010, 12:45 AM
Dont split ranks! We need to make a strong push here!

Don't worry. I'm on board. i don't think he will impress me to close out the season, but I'm giving him a chance...

TXBRONC
11-28-2010, 09:00 AM
I gave McDaniels every opportunity to prove himself. Even though this isn't "supposed" to be on his head, I feel the buck stops on him. He has no credit nor credibility with me.

The way I see it this was McDaniels hire so he knew or should have known the work history.

CoachChaz
11-28-2010, 09:52 AM
Maybe the Giants should fire Coughlin as well. I recall having a conversation with a friend within the Giants organization when this happened with the Patriots and I made the comment that I was surprised more teams didnt film opponents. His response..."Dont think it doesnt happen regularly".

Maybe its simmered down since Spygate, but it was made apparent to me by an employee of an NFL team that this had been common practice and may still be.

So, firing a guy for poor performance as a coach is one thing. Firing him because he didnt report an infraction within the proper timeframe is silly. I once saw a fellow employee stealing money and didnt say anything for a week...I guess I should have been fired then.

But...as Clay says...the hardcore anti-McDaniels crowd needs to stick together, so lets beat this horse for awhile

Lancane
11-28-2010, 10:05 AM
Maybe the Giants should fire Coughlin as well. I recall having a conversation with a friend within the Giants organization when this happened with the Patriots and I made the comment that I was surprised more teams didnt film opponents. His response..."Dont think it doesnt happen regularly".

Maybe its simmered down since Spygate, but it was made apparent to me by an employee of an NFL team that this had been common practice and may still be.

So, firing a guy for poor performance as a coach is one thing. Firing him because he didnt report an infraction within the proper timeframe is silly. I once saw a fellow employee stealing money and didnt say anything for a week...I guess I should have been fired then.

But...as Clay says...the hardcore anti-McDaniels crowd needs to stick together, so lets beat this horse for awhile

For me, it's not so much in that he's guilty, because he did violate the league's policy and admitted as much, so it can not be argued. For me, it's just one more F' up that has us looking like ass-clowns with the media, in what has been a continuous cycle of horrid decisions that have taken away the purpose of this team which is to play and win football games. Two circus-esque type off-seasons, and now this...it's not even his third off-season, what's the encore performance? Trading the last few good players we have for members of the Wicked cast?

In the end, the only question I have for those who do and do not support him is this - when is enough, enough?

CoachChaz
11-28-2010, 10:20 AM
For me, it's not so much in that he's guilty, because he did violate the league's policy and admitted as much, so it can not be argued. For me, it's just one more F' up that has us looking like ass-clowns with the media, in what has been a continuous cycle of horrid decisions that have taken away the purpose of this team which is to play and win football games. Two circus-esque type off-seasons, and now this...it's not even his third off-season, what's the encore performance? Trading the last few good players we have for members of the Wicked cast?

In the end, the only question I have for those who do and do not support him is this - when is enough, enough?

I'm not arguing that his job is in jeapordy or at least should be...I'm just saying this shouldnt be an additional reason. If we were a winning team, this wouldnt even be an issue (as far as firing him over this)

GEM
11-28-2010, 10:24 AM
I'm not arguing that his job is in jeapordy or at least should be...I'm just saying this shouldnt be an additional reason. If we were a winning team, this wouldnt even be an issue (as far as firing him over this)

Nope..cause none of us called for Shanny's during the Salary Cap issue or the greased jersey issue.

In and of itself, it's not a reason to fire. Bunched up with everything else and his utter failure at his job, definitely a reason for his dismissal.

CoachChaz
11-28-2010, 10:29 AM
Nope..cause none of us called for Shanny's during the Salary Cap issue or the greased jersey issue.

In and of itself, it's not a reason to fire. Bunched up with everything else and his utter failure at his job, definitely a reason for his dismissal.

A ridiculous double standard. That's like telling one murderer he's going to jail for life because he has a shaky past and letting another go free because it's his forst offense

HORSEPOWER 56
11-28-2010, 10:40 AM
I'm not arguing that his job is in jeapordy or at least should be...I'm just saying this shouldnt be an additional reason. If we were a winning team, this wouldnt even be an issue (as far as firing him over this)

Of course not, Coach. Winning cures all ills. Maybe I'd be more willing to let him slide on these FUBARs if he had actually shown any progress on turning this team around. Poor job performance combined with these black-eyes to our credibility as a franchise and fuel for the media circus don't help his case to stay.

You say it wouldn't be an issue if we were winning, but I think the league went easy on us because we're not. Had we beaten the 49ers and then the tape had come to light after the fact, I think we'd have been stripped of our 1st round draft pick and then this would be a HUGE deal. McDaniels and the Broncos got off very easy on this one, IMO. A simple win vs a bad SF team would've made this soooooo much worse for this franchise.

NE was the first team to really be caught doing this and they made an example of them, but it's almost always worse when we don't learn from others' mistakes. Typically the hammer falls harder on the "next guy" to do it.

GEM
11-28-2010, 10:40 AM
A ridiculous double standard. That's like telling one murderer he's going to jail for life because he has a shaky past and letting another go free because it's his forst offense

I was agreeing with you. My reason for wanting him gone is more along the line of his personnel decisions and his records. This event is just another reason added to his already long list.

Your reference to the legal system...put in anything but murder, and that happens every day. When my ex and I got in trouble, we were charged with the same thing. I got 1 year probation, he got 4 years in Department of Corrections. Based on the fact that it was my first offense and they plead my charge down and he was on his 2nd felony and they threw the book at him.

CoachChaz
11-28-2010, 10:45 AM
I was agreeing with you. My reason for wanting him gone is more along the line of his personnel decisions and his records. This event is just another reason added to his already long list.

Your reference to the legal system...put in anything but murder, and that happens every day.

I can stand behind firing him over his performance. But saying that something that would be blown off if we were winning is "just another reason to fire him" is what baffles me.

"If we were winning, I wouldnt care about this taping issue, but since were losing, I'll conveniently add it to the list of reasons to get rid of him."

Am I the only one that sees something wrong with that statement?

GEM
11-28-2010, 10:50 AM
I can stand behind firing him over his performance. But saying that something that would be blown off if we were winning is "just another reason to fire him" is what baffles me.

"If we were winning, I wouldnt care about this taping issue, but since were losing, I'll conveniently add it to the list of reasons to get rid of him."

Am I the only one that sees something wrong with that statement?

There is definitely something wrong with that statement. Happy that I never made that statement. It wouldn't matter if we were winning, it's still wrong and not the way I want to win. Just like circumventing the salary cap was wrong and just like greasing up jerseys is wrong. I don't have the power to fire Shanny or McDaniels. There is no way to defend either in the realm of cheating.

Ravage!!!
11-28-2010, 10:52 AM
I don't think its ridiculous. Its could be figuratively, the "straw taht broke the camels back."

There are a few posters here that have said "I didn't want him to be fired before, but this is the last straw." Its giving a guy a chance and a chance and a chance, after chance.

One side of the scales can only take so many stones before it tilts. This is just, yet another, pepple added to the growing pile

Not ONE thing he's done is reason enough to fire him. Thats the case with EVERY coach. Its the accumalitive actions that get one fired.

turftoad
11-28-2010, 10:55 AM
I can stand behind firing him over his performance. But saying that something that would be blown off if we were winning is "just another reason to fire him" is what baffles me.

"If we were winning, I wouldnt care about this taping issue, but since were losing, I'll conveniently add it to the list of reasons to get rid of him."

Am I the only one that sees something wrong with that statement?

First of all. Glad to you back posting. Have missed you and your insight. Hope you stick around more.

I don't see anything wrong with that statement. Why? Because it's true. I mean, how many reasons do we need?
Shitty personell decisions, 5-15 in the last 20 games, not so good drafting. The reasons just keep piling up. This one is huge.

This one just tipped the scale.

HORSEPOWER 56
11-28-2010, 10:58 AM
I can stand behind firing him over his performance. But saying that something that would be blown off if we were winning is "just another reason to fire him" is what baffles me.

"If we were winning, I wouldnt care about this taping issue, but since were losing, I'll conveniently add it to the list of reasons to get rid of him."

Am I the only one that sees something wrong with that statement?

Only if it's a "first offense" type of thing. Take Brandon Marshall for example. Fantastic on the field, but his off-field problems and media antics became too tiresome for the team to invest in him and he was traded. Even if McDaniels was coaching us to a winning record, how many indiscretions off the field are enough? How many times does he need to bring the media and the league into the inner workings of the organization and the locker room before he really becomes a divider instead of a unifier? Some fans here have said they don't care what the media or other fans say about us, but how about the players? How would you feel if you were looked at and referred to as a cheat by the media, fans, and other players because of your boss? Would you still want to work for him? Do you really think guys like Brian Dawkins and Jamal Williams came here expecting this type of losing record along with all the off-field drama?

CoachChaz
11-28-2010, 11:05 AM
I guess thats my point. If you already have all the reasons in the world to fire him, then fire him for those reasons. Dont use reasons that would typically be ignored to fuel the fire.

If he's gone because he cant handle personnel decisions and win games...that's fine. But firing him for something that a winning coach wouldnt be fired for seems like a scapegoat.

It reminds me of Ron Washington. The Rangers could have easily fired him in the off-season when he admitted to using coke. Based on their performance under his watch, it would have been easy...but the team stuck behind him and they went to the World Series. I'm not saying I expect Denver to be in the Super Bowl next year, but I admire the fact that he'll be fired or retained based upon his performance and not a violation of league rules that is not a fireable offense

CoachChaz
11-28-2010, 11:08 AM
Only if it's a "first offense" type of thing. Take Brandon Marshall for example. Fantastic on the field, but his off-field problems and media antics became too tiresome for the team to invest in him and he was traded. Even if McDaniels was coaching us to a winning record, how many indiscretions off the field are enough? How many times does he need to bring the media and the league into the inner workings of the organization and the locker room before he really becomes a divider instead of a unifier? Some fans here have said they don't care what the media or other fans say about us, but how about the players? How would you feel if you were looked at and referred to as a cheat by the media, fans, and other players because of your boss? Would you still want to work for him? Do you really think guys like Brian Dawkins and Jamal Williams came here expecting this type of losing record along with all the off-field drama?

Interesting. NE can still attract players regardless of Belichek cheating. Why? He wins. Denver isnt winning with guys like Dawkins and Williams. Is that ALL on the coach? Seems to me like the players have at least and probably a little more to do with success on the field. If you arent performing, I dont think it's your place to criticize anyone else. Just my crazy opinion

BeefStew25
11-28-2010, 11:09 AM
Interesting. NE can still attract players regardless of Belichek cheating. Why? He wins. Denver isnt winning with guys like Dawkins and Williams. Is that ALL on the coach? Seems to me like the players have at least and probably a little more to do with success on the field. If you arent performing, I dont think it's your place to criticize anyone else. Just my crazy opinion

So maybe the GM needs to catch some heat?

HORSEPOWER 56
11-28-2010, 11:23 AM
Interesting. NE can still attract players regardless of Belichek cheating. Why? He wins. Denver isnt winning with guys like Dawkins and Williams. Is that ALL on the coach? Seems to me like the players have at least and probably a little more to do with success on the field. If you arent performing, I dont think it's your place to criticize anyone else. Just my crazy opinion

Except when your head coach stands on a soapbox every week and preaches all of these "team" ethics and willingly calls out the players and units to the media only to consistently do things that make the "team" look bad. It's extremely hypocritical and if I was a player and he was getting in my grill about my performance, my retort would probably something along the lines of, "My play may be lacking, but at least I play honestly and within the rules".

GEM
11-28-2010, 11:30 AM
So maybe the GM needs to catch some heat?

Seems kind of funny that our GM, Xanders hasn't been heard from AT ALL during this. :lol:

Joel
11-28-2010, 11:35 AM
I'm not arguing that his job is in jeapordy or at least should be...I'm just saying this shouldnt be an additional reason. If we were a winning team, this wouldnt even be an issue (as far as firing him over this)
So we all cheered for the Giants against the Pats because of their previous losses? I congratulated my Giants fan coworker on behalf of the nation for making sure cheating didn't pay. As long as Belichick is running the show they'll remain the Cheatriots to me, and I don't want to see Denver go down that road.

Winning doesn't make cheating OK, and a coach willing to tolerate it shouldn't be coaching. When Denver violated the cap under Shanny (which I'm still not convinced was deliberate; when you start figuring in signing bonuses and incentives over multiple seasons it's easy to make an honest mistake) we paid the consequences because it was wrong, and it was wrong not in itself, but because having more money available than other teams gave an unfair advantage, which is why the rule was created. Petroleum jelly has obvious insulating properties (why do you think whales have so much blubber?) and I'm not sure an offensive linemen whose hands slip off the guy he's trying to make contact with has any competive edge over said opponent, but the League had them remove the Vaseline and imposed penalties.

McDaniels has been fined $50k out of a salary well over $2 million. That's a speeding ticket, folks, and the only lesson it teaches is "don't get caught". Apart from the same fine against the team, neither the League nor team have indicated further disciplinary action. That's wrong. I don't expect the NFL to go back and strip the Pats of their three SBs (though I kinda feel they should) but combine that with McDaniels becoming the youngest head coach in League history, getting caught cheating AGAIN and only getting a slap on the wrist and it sends exactly the wrong message: Winning legitimizes cheating, and may the best cheat win. Frankly, if you have to cheat to win I think you've already lost in every worthwhile way. I wasn't your boss, but if you saw someone stealing and said nothing only to have someone ELSE report it, you'd have been fired if I WERE your boss.

turftoad
11-28-2010, 11:35 AM
Seems kind of funny that our GM, Xanders hasn't been heard from AT ALL during this. :lol:

Like I said in another thread. I don't think we've heard the last of this sitch yet.
I'm sure we'll be waiting for more.

HORSEPOWER 56
11-28-2010, 11:37 AM
Seems kind of funny that our GM, Xanders hasn't been heard from AT ALL during this. :lol:

That's because being able to quote contract numbers and money figures really has zero to do with this. He'd probably just get caught cheating on the books, too so Ellis and Bowlen are probably keeping him as far away from this as possible. ;)

GEM
11-28-2010, 11:38 AM
That's because being able to quote contract numbers and money figures really has zero to do with this. He'd probably just get caught cheating on the books, too so Ellis and Bowlen are probably keeping him as far away from this as possible. ;)

Or more because he's really not a GM...he's a contract guy. He's GM in name only, McDaniels is the true GM. McDaniels doesn't answer to Xanders as evidenced by the COO Ellis holding the news conference. McDaniels answers to Ellis and Bowlen.

HORSEPOWER 56
11-28-2010, 11:46 AM
Or more because he's really not a GM...he's a contract guy. He's GM in name only, McDaniels is the true GM. McDaniels doesn't answer to Xanders as evidenced by the COO Ellis holding the news conference. McDaniels answers to Ellis and Bowlen.

That's what I meant by him cooking the books. Xanders is nothing more than an overpaid accountant and part-time scout with an inflated title. Everyone knows that.

topscribe
11-28-2010, 11:48 AM
There seems an awful lot of conjecture going on in these threads, and
conclusions based on that conjecture. The board seems divided between the
same two camps that existed before: pro-McDaniels and anti-McDaniels.
(Meanwhile, there also appears a few fence-sitters that might have turned
against McDaniels.) It's the same mode of thought that prevails in politics and
religion: If it supports your position, wave it like a flag; if not, dismiss it.

I have been one of the fence-sitters regarding McDaniels. I still am. So my
having said that, it seems to me that nothing has been established or proven
in this case, regardless of the conclusions drawn.

Therefore, my reaction is to give McDaniels the benefit of the doubt until
proven differently. I have seen too many reputations tarnished and even
ruined over jumping to conclusions, based on conjecture and innuendo.

My problem with McDaniels is not influenced by this little filming incident.
My problem is this: 3-7. That's it. But there's still season left and next year
(if there is football at all). That's why I have not made up my mind regarding
him. My personal period of judgment is not final.

But, as I indicated, personally speaking, this filming thing is moot.

-----

turftoad
11-28-2010, 11:52 AM
There seems an awful lot of conjecture going on in these threads, and
conclusions based on that conjecture. The board seems divided between the
same two camps that existed before: pro-McDaniels and anti-McDaniels.
(Meanwhile, there also appears a few fence-sitters that might have turned
against McDaniels.) It's the same mode of thought that prevails in politics and
religion: If it supports your position, wave it like a flag; if not, dismiss it.

I have been one of the fence-sitters regarding McDaniels. I still am. So my
having said that, it seems to me that nothing has been established or proven
in this case, regardless of the conclusions drawn.

Therefore, my reaction is to give McDaniels the benefit of the doubt until
proven differently. I have seen too many reputations tarnished and even
ruined over jumping to conclusions, based on conjecture and innuendo.

My problem with McDaniels is not influenced by this little filming incident.
My problem is this: 3-7. That's it. But there's still season left and next year
(if there is football at all). That's why I have not made up my mind regarding
him. My personal period of judgment is not final.

But, as I indicated, personally speaking, this filming thing is moot.

-----

I checked onto the NFL.com site yesterday. This moot point was all over the front page and all over the sports news and the sports world.
That is not moot to me.

BeefStew25
11-28-2010, 11:54 AM
At the least, it is amateur hour at Dove Valley.

topscribe
11-28-2010, 12:08 PM
I checked onto the NFL.com site yesterday. This moot point was all over the front page and all over the sports news and the sports world.
That is not moot to me.

Yes, all kinds of moot news is plastered all over the media. That's why I
generally tend to go deeper for my news than the headlines of what once
could be referred to as "journalism."

But I respect your opinion, while I hold to mine . . .

-----

HORSEPOWER 56
11-28-2010, 12:10 PM
I have been one of the fence-sitters regarding McDaniels. I still am. So my
having said that, it seems to me that nothing has been established or proven
in this case, regardless of the conclusions drawn.

Therefore, my reaction is to give McDaniels the benefit of the doubt until
proven differently. I have seen too many reputations tarnished and even
ruined over jumping to conclusions, based on conjecture and innuendo.


-----

It's okay, topper. When McDaniels is retained and trades away Kyle Orton this offseason for a backup TE and a 6th round pick (which will be your last straw, I feel), just remember we're keeping you a seat warm here on the Dark Side! :beer:

turftoad
11-28-2010, 12:12 PM
Yes, all kinds of moot news is plastered all over the media. That's why I
generally tend to go deeper for my news than the headlines of what once
could be referred to as "journalism."

But I respect your opinion, while I hold to mine . . .

-----

I respect your opinion also Top.

It's just to bad that we are a national laughing stock. Before this happened and certainly now, after it. :tsk:

topscribe
11-28-2010, 12:12 PM
It's okay, topper. When McDaniels is retained and trades away Kyle Orton this offseason for a backup TE and a 6th round pick (which will be your last straw, I feel), just remember we're keeping you a seat warm here on the Dark Side! :beer:
I figured it was just a matter of time before Orton was brought into this
thread. It would have been an anomaly for that not to happen . . .

-----

topscribe
11-28-2010, 12:13 PM
I respect your opinion also Top.

It's just to bad that we are a national laughing stock. Before this happened and certainly now, after it. :tsk:

As I mentioned in another thread, as a Broncos fan, I am still embarrassed over the incident . . .

-----

HORSEPOWER 56
11-28-2010, 12:14 PM
I figured it was just a matter of time before Orton was brought into this
thread. It would have been an anomaly for that not to happen . . .

-----

I only did it for you! :D

I'm a selfless ******* that way!

topscribe
11-28-2010, 12:15 PM
I only did it for you! :D

I'm a selfless ******* that way!

I might mention that you look better with that bag over your head, HP . . .

-----

Slick
11-28-2010, 01:06 PM
There seems an awful lot of conjecture going on in these threads, and
conclusions based on that conjecture. The board seems divided between the
same two camps that existed before: pro-McDaniels and anti-McDaniels.
(Meanwhile, there also appears a few fence-sitters that might have turned
against McDaniels.) It's the same mode of thought that prevails in politics and
religion: If it supports your position, wave it like a flag; if not, dismiss it.

I have been one of the fence-sitters regarding McDaniels. I still am. So my
having said that, it seems to me that nothing has been established or proven
in this case, regardless of the conclusions drawn.

Therefore, my reaction is to give McDaniels the benefit of the doubt until
proven differently. I have seen too many reputations tarnished and even
ruined over jumping to conclusions, based on conjecture and innuendo.

My problem with McDaniels is not influenced by this little filming incident.
My problem is this: 3-7. That's it. But there's still season left and next year
(if there is football at all). That's why I have not made up my mind regarding
him. My personal period of judgment is not final.

But, as I indicated, personally speaking, this filming thing is moot.

-----
I pretty much feel the same way.

I wouldn't fire him based solely because of this incident.

I don't feel like were heading in the right direction at the moment, and I expected to see more signs of the improvement he was hired to make.

He could still turn it around but I don't know if he will before I fall off the fence.

Today will tell us a lot. If we come out and lay an egg it could be the beginning of the end.

Tned
11-28-2010, 01:21 PM
I'm not arguing that his job is in jeapordy or at least should be...I'm just saying this shouldnt be an additional reason. If we were a winning team, this wouldnt even be an issue (as far as firing him over this)

I think what it comes down to is that a lot of people that have been ardent supporters of McDaniels and all of his questionable personnel moves and other decisions have been finding it harder and harder to support his rebuild based on the results on the field (worst 20 game stretch in 40 years by a Broncos team). For a great many of them, this event has become either the 'straw that broke...' or a justification to pull their support, which in many cases had been waning internally even while they still publicly supported him.


Seems kind of funny that our GM, Xanders hasn't been heard from AT ALL during this. :lol:

Yes, to the people that lambasted any of us that stated Xanders wasn't a real GM, why has he been completely absent during this, and every other major team event since he took on that title?


Or more because he's really not a GM...he's a contract guy. He's GM in name only, McDaniels is the true GM. McDaniels doesn't answer to Xanders as evidenced by the COO Ellis holding the news conference. McDaniels answers to Ellis and Bowlen.

Ellis is essentially Bowlen's right hand man, serving as an extension of the owner. So, I think we would see Ellis in these situations regardless, but if Xanders was a true GM, we would be hearing from him as well.


There seems an awful lot of conjecture going on in these threads, and
conclusions based on that conjecture. The board seems divided between the
same two camps that existed before: pro-McDaniels and anti-McDaniels.
(Meanwhile, there also appears a few fence-sitters that might have turned
against McDaniels.) It's the same mode of thought that prevails in politics and
religion: If it supports your position, wave it like a flag; if not, dismiss it.

I have been one of the fence-sitters regarding McDaniels. I still am. So my
having said that, it seems to me that nothing has been established or proven
in this case, regardless of the conclusions drawn.
-----

I'm not sure if you've been reading though these threads the last 24 hours, but your definition of the "two camps" is woefully incorrect.

Most of the loudest cries of "it's time for McDaniels to go" have been from people that had been FIRMLY pro-McDaniels camp. Ironically, some of the pleas of patience, lets see how the rest of the year goes have been by those labeled anti-McDaniels.

This is not an outcry by anti-McDaniels people, and if you think so, I strongly suggest you read through the posts on this subject from yesterday so you can correct your misconception.

turftoad
11-28-2010, 01:24 PM
I don't see how some can claim this is a misconception.

He's guilty of something or else he would not have been fined $50,000 by the league.

Slick
11-28-2010, 01:30 PM
I don't see how some can claim this is a misconception.

He's guilty of something or else he would not have been fined $50,000 by the league.

I don't think anyone is turf, I mean, we've been fined. That means we've been found guilty by the NFL already.

Some don't think it's a big deal. Frankly I'm so numb now...all the emotion I had for this season has been sucked out of me.

All I can do now is watch and see if we sink any lower or if we start climbing out of it.

spikerman
11-28-2010, 01:30 PM
I think the league is just picking on him because he replaced Mikey and traded Jay and Brandon.

topscribe
11-28-2010, 01:30 PM
I think what it comes down to is that a lot of people that have been ardent supporters of McDaniels and all of his questionable personnel moves and other decisions have been finding it harder and harder to support his rebuild based on the results on the field (worst 20 game stretch in 40 years by a Broncos team). For a great many of them, this event has become either the 'straw that broke...' or a justification to pull their support, which in many cases had been waning internally even while they still publicly supported him.



Yes, to the people that lambasted any of us that stated Xanders wasn't a real GM, why has he been completely absent during this, and every other major team event since he took on that title?



Ellis is essentially Bowlen's right hand man, serving as an extension of the owner. So, I think we would see Ellis in these situations regardless, but if Xanders was a true GM, we would be hearing from him as well.



I'm not sure if you've been reading though these threads the last 24 hours, but your definition of the "two camps" is woefully incorrect.

Most of the loudest cries of "it's time for McDaniels to go" have been from people that had been FIRMLY pro-McDaniels camp. Ironically, some of the pleas of patience, lets see how the rest of the year goes have been by those labeled anti-McDaniels.

This is not an outcry by anti-McDaniels people, and if you think so, I strongly suggest you read through the posts on this subject from yesterday so you can correct your misconception.

You strongly suggest that because you have no idea of my work schedule.
You did the reading for me. Thank you.

Meanwhile, you might notice the prolific use of "seems," "appears," "IMO,"
and other expressions that I carefully add to indicated that it is only my
impression. That is to avoid charges that I have defined anything, as you
suggested. That didn't seem to work here . . .

-----

spikerman
11-28-2010, 01:31 PM
I don't think anyone is turf, I mean, we've been fined. That means we've been found guilty by the NFL already.

Some don't think it's a big deal. Frankly I'm so numb now...all the emotion I had for this season has been sucked out of me.

All I can do now is watch and see if we sink any lower or if we start climbing out of it.

I'm with you Slick. This season has become a train wreck that I can't turn away from.

Tned
11-28-2010, 01:34 PM
You strongly suggest that because you have no idea of my work schedule.
You did the reading for me. Thank you.

Meanwhile, you might notice the prolific use of "seems," "appears," "IMO,"
and other expressions that I carefully add to indicated that it is only my
impression. That is to avoid charges that I have defined anything, as you
suggested. That didn't seem to work here . . .

-----

No need to get defenisve and turn things personal...

Since you have been too busy to be fully informed, many, it not most (by a long shot), of the cries for McDaniels' head yesterday came from ARDENT supporters, the people that viciously attacked fellow fans that previously criticized McDaniels (I only bring that up to highlight the switch, not to say they were wrong or it didn't happen in both directions).

This is not the same old anti/pro McDaniels thing, unfortunately this event has moved LARGE numbers of fans from the "pro" to "ant" column.

topscribe
11-28-2010, 01:39 PM
No need to get defenisve and turn things personal...

Since you have been too busy to be fully informed, many, it not most (by a long shot), of the cries for McDaniels' head yesterday came from ARDENT supporters, the people that viciously attacked fellow fans that previously criticized McDaniels (I only bring that up to highlight the switch, not to say they were wrong or it didn't happen in both directions).

This is not the same old anti/pro McDaniels thing, unfortunately this event has moved LARGE numbers of fans from the "pro" to "ant" column.

I wasn't any more personal than you were. If I was wrong, I don't mind being
corrected. But that just seemed rather abrasive to me.

But since I didn't move from my position on the fence, maybe I just didn't
notice the traffic going across it. :whoknows:

-----

Tned
11-28-2010, 01:58 PM
I wasn't any more personal than you were. If I was wrong, I don't mind being
corrected. But that just seemed rather abrasive to me.

But since I didn't move from my position on the fence, maybe I just didn't
notice the traffic going across it. :whoknows:

-----

:lol: Ok, Top, enjoy the games today. ;)

HORSEPOWER 56
11-28-2010, 02:07 PM
I might mention that you look better with that bag over your head, HP . . .

-----

Yeah, the wife says that too... :tsk:

Oh wait, that's her picture... :D

topscribe
11-28-2010, 02:16 PM
Yeah, the wife says that too... :tsk:

Oh wait, that's her picture... :D

There must be some way I can get word to her to read this thread . . .

-----

dogfish
11-28-2010, 02:27 PM
"How many people believe the camera guy was acting on his own initiative?"

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/9381/nflamcdaniels300.jpg (http://img121.imageshack.us/i/nflamcdaniels300.jpg/)

HORSEPOWER 56
11-28-2010, 02:56 PM
There must be some way I can get word to her to read this thread . . .

-----

Do you really wish death on me that much?

topscribe
11-28-2010, 03:00 PM
Do you really wish death on me that much?

Hey, you said it, I didn't . . . :whistle:

-----

Joel
11-28-2010, 03:27 PM
I don't see how some can claim this is a misconception.

He's guilty of something or else he would not have been fined $50,000 by the league.
He's guilty of concealing what happened, by his own admission, hence the fine. That should tell us something right there: The stigma of Spygate, which is no longer confined to a single team, remains strong enough that just concealing, cheating you claim not to have exploited, temporarily or otherwise, is worth a $50k fine. If the League ever finds evidence he did more than conceal a one time incident we can expect the penalty will be proprotionately more severe.

Pray McDaniels is telling the truth, Broncos fans. I don't think he is, but pray hard. If there's ANY reason to believe otherwise, however, it's time to cut our losses before things get worse. Even if he's honest, bringing a known cheat to Denver, where he did it again, speaks badly of McDaniels' judgement, as well as raising the risk this WASN'T isolated. If there's one thing this week should've taught those of us who complained about Shannys shameful .500 seasons, it's that things can ALWAYS get worse. Which is why when you're at the bottom of a hole you STOP DIGGING!

Nick
11-28-2010, 05:52 PM
I put no, He should not be fired specifically for this but for his play calling and decision making. Him even being discussed on filming and losing... Is just embarrassing and probably quit.

If he does want people to discuss these things and keep his job.... Put Tebow in :beer:

Medford Bronco
11-28-2010, 05:53 PM
He should be fired for his bad personel decisions and coaching really

camdisco24
11-28-2010, 06:30 PM
After today's game, there are many other things he should be fired for. Spygate II is just another stick in the fire.

guitarj
11-28-2010, 06:31 PM
Are you getting this camera guy?:tsk:

dogfish
11-28-2010, 06:35 PM
another home blow out where we weren't even competitive. . . the little turd HAS to be fired. . .

TXBRONC
11-28-2010, 06:45 PM
another home blow out where we weren't even competitive. . . the little turd HAS to be fired. . .

Dog open your freakin eyes this is what a smart, tough, physical football looks like. :tsk:

Tned
11-28-2010, 06:47 PM
another home blow out where we weren't even competitive. . . the little turd HAS to be fired. . .

On the bright side, this one isn't to a division opponent!

TXBRONC
11-28-2010, 06:49 PM
On the bright side, this one isn't to a division opponent!

Thank God for small favors? :confused: