Brandon vs Brandon

[WARHORSE]

Brandon Lloyd-

54 receptions

1046 yards- Leads league

19.6 ypc- Leads league among WR with more than 33 receptions.

7 Touchdowns

Catches over 20 yards- 19....Leads league

Catches over 40 yards- 7......Leads league

*No off the field incidents. Has not flung a helmet or a ball in frustration. Has been a model citizen and a team player, in spite of losing 7 games.
Healthy.

Price tag? $671,040.00



Brandon Marshall

58 receptions

693 receiving yards

11.9 yards per reception

1 Touchdown

7 receptions over 20 yards

2 receptions over 40 yards

* Still causing distractions on and off the field. Has been accused by NFL.com staffers of tanking it in critical situations. Still throwing balls. Still throwing helmets. Still kicking helmets. Still complaining about his role on team. Still claiming to be a team player and that hes.........learning from his mistakes. Out with a hamstring this week, and multiple weeks coming.

Price tag? Minimum 9.5 million for the year.




THANK YOU, Josh McDaniels.:beer:

[Bosco]

Imagine that. Getting paid two 2nd round picks for the privilege to upgrade a position and remove a cancer.

Awesome.

[Ravage!!!]

Uhmmm.... so we just using Lloyd's best year and comparing to Marshall's worst, and calling it a win? :lol: Ooo Kayyy. Sounds reasonable.

Want to compare the three years prior to this one, and feel that we came out ahead?? :lol:

[BroncoTech]

Thanks for showing the quantitative proof for something we've all suspected. Out of the corner of my football eye I've been watching Marshall give up on plays and quitting on routes down in Miami and I'm happy it's not here. He's doing it late in the game on last chance drives. Good riddance.

[MileHighCrew]

This is not a fair way to rate this trade. I am not saying I don't think it was a good trade because I do, Marshall didn't want to play for this team, he wanted to get paid and be a diva. However, he went to Miami a run first offence with no decent qb (yes I think Henne is a horrible qb.) Then both their below average qbs got hurt. Denver is a pass first offence that made it a priority to strech the field and Lloyd was the best option. Don't forget Lloyd was here last year too and couldn't get on the field because more talented players were in those spots.
But nice try to make McD look good on a week where he looked really bad.

[Tned]

Uhmmm.... so we just using Lloyd's best year and comparing to Marshall's worst, and calling it a win? :lol: Ooo Kayyy. Sounds reasonable.

Want to compare the three years prior to this one, and feel that we came out ahead?? :lol:

Yes, that's about it. Ignore Lloyd's first seven seasons and Marshall's first four, and just claim that Brandon L > Brandon M.

Not to mention ignoring the other factors, like the amount Den has passed this year due to havig the work run game in the NFL.

Lloyd has had a GREAT season, but it wasn't an upgrade, as he was already on the team.

The team would have been better off with both Brandons on the field.

[BroncoNut]

Uhmmm.... so we just using Lloyd's best year and comparing to Marshall's worst, and calling it a win? :lol: Ooo Kayyy. Sounds reasonable.

Want to compare the three years prior to this one, and feel that we came out ahead?? :lol:

exactly. It's like what exactly is your point here WH? Yay, our Brandon looks better on paper than Miami's, yet, we still suck.

:simulatesjerkingoff:

[Ravage!!!]

This is not a fair way to rate this trade. I am not saying I don't think it was a good trade because I do, Marshall didn't want to play for this team, he wanted to get paid and be a diva. However, he went to Miami a run first offence with no decent qb (yes I think Henne is a horrible qb.) Then both their below average qbs got hurt. Denver is a pass first offence that made it a priority to strech the field and Lloyd was the best option. Don't forget Lloyd was here last year too and couldn't get on the field because more talented players were in those spots.
But nice try to make McD look good on a week where he looked really bad.

Nice Post... :beer:

[Denver Native (Carol)]

As the intent of the thread was to point out Lloyd's production, since he took over the Broncos' #1 WR this year, to Marshall's first year elsewhere, why would you not compare what they have both accomplished so far this year?

[Nomad]

Lloyd's doing a hell of a job...that's all I got to say about that!!!

[Lancane]

This has got to be a joke thread, literally because I'm laughing so hard my side hurts!

Lloyd has one great season in what has thus far been a career lavished in mediocrity, where as Marshall has been one of the league's most dominant game changing receivers for most of his career and is having his first off-season, even though up till his injury was still on par for a 1,000 yard season? Go figure...

Marshall is not a touchdown machine, he's not a guy who can spread the field and none of us ever claimed as much...what he is, is nothing short of a game changer. Throw him the ball in times of need and he made things happen, let's not forget that our albeit great, hall of fame bound football coach, or at least the ass kissers seem to think so, went out and drafted a kid he thought had similar skills to Marshall...who's nothing more then a clone, or so he hopes.

Lloyd and Marshall would have been a dynamic, monstrous duo that would have scared the living shit out of every defense.

[Ravage!!!]

As the intent of the thread was to point out Lloyd's production, since he took over the Broncos' #1 WR this year, to Marshall's first year elsewhere, why would you not compare what they have both accomplished so far this year?

if that were the intent of the OP, then why "thank" McD?

The point of the thread was to "thank McD" for trading Marshall and keeping Lloyd (?) (not sure really, since no team was trying to trade for Lloyd and he was already here). As if the numbers in Miami have anything to do with the numbers in Denver.

If it was PURELY to boast about Lloyd's production, then why was Marshall's stats brought into the mix at all?

This thread was made to try and bash Marshall while trying to boost the "decision" of McD.

[topscribe]

As the intent of the thread was to point out Lloyd's production, since he took over the Broncos' #1 WR this year, to Marshall's first year elsewhere, why would you not compare what they have both accomplished so far this year?

That was my first reaction. What War is talking about is how things turned
out this year. It seems to me that some of those who are bringing up past
comparisons have stated, on other issues, that the past doesn't count. Now,
all the sudden, it does.

Moreover, I would venture to guess that, even though Lloyd was on the
squad last year, his going from being inactive most of the year to achieving
a production that numbers among the elite this year represents a definite
upgrade.

Raw talent does not always connote a better player (see Rod Smith). At
present, right here and now, the Broncos have the better player. Therefore,
as it stands right now, it appears a good trade . . .

-----

[Tned]

As the intent of the thread was to point out Lloyd's production, since he took over the Broncos' #1 WR this year, to Marshall's first year elsewhere, why would you not compare what they have both accomplished so far this year?

The intent of the thread was to state that it was a good trade. Those stats can't win that argument.

[Ravage!!!]

No.. we don't. THats whats so funny. Miami HAS the better player despite some bigger numbers THIS season by Lloyd. As it stands, right now, Miami still has the better player.

[Tned]

That was my first reaction. What War is talking about is how things turned
out this year. It seems to me that some of those who are bringing up past
comparisons have stated, on other issues, that the past doesn't count. Now,
all the sudden, it does.

Moreover, I would venture to guess that, even though Lloyd was on the
squad last year, his going from being inactive most of the year to achieving
a production that numbers among the elite this year represents a definite
upgrade.

Raw talent does not always connote a better player (see Rod Smith). At
present, right here and now, the Broncos have the better player, therefore,
as it stands right now, it appears a good trade . . .

-----

Yes, and they did have had both players... :confused:

[topscribe]

Yes, and they did have had both players... :confused:

And now they have gained what this year is an elite receiver and lost a little
boy. That, in my book, has been a huge gain . . .

-----

[Ravage!!!]

Yes, and they did have had both players... :confused:

yeah.. did we trade Lloyd for Marshall?? :confused: Because I'm still wondering how the absence of Marshall somehow makes the trade better, when we could have (did) have both to begin with.

[Ravage!!!]

One good season does not an elite player make.

[topscribe]

One good season does not an elite player make.

True. Lloyd has not previously been elite, and he may not be in the future.
But this year, he is elite. His production backs that up . . .

-----

[BroncoNut]

Lloyd's doing a hell of a job...that's all I got to say about that!!!

Okay Forrest, thanks for the valuable insight.

[Tned]

And now they have gained what this year is an elite receiver and lost a little
boy. That, in my book, has been a huge gain . . .

-----

:confused: A little boy? :laugh:

Ok, that little boy has already reach production levels that nearly no other NFL players has achieved. Hey, but, he was a wittle boy....

[BroncoNut]

True. Lloyd has not previously been elite, and he may not be in the future.
But this year, he is elite. His production backs that up . . .

-----

And apples tend to back me up. Again, what is the point of this dumbass thread?

[topscribe]

:confused: A little boy? :laugh:

Ok, that little boy has already reach production levels that nearly no other NFL players has achieved. Hey, but, he was a wittle boy....

Okay. So that one blew right by you. :noidea:

So you don't like the "little boy" analogy? Let's try cancer. I'm not a doctor,
but the best way to treat a cancer is to remove it, I've been told. From that
perspective, I consider Marshall's exit a good personnel move. And I'm not
alone in that . . .

-----

[Nomad]

Okay Forrest, thanks for the valuable insight.

WOW! All the debate in here and you go after me because I give props to the guy who wears the BRONCO uniform! I see where we stand now and i'll be nice and walk away without saying anything mean!!

Do I agree with War comparing, not really, but I'll give props to Lloyd and I figured someone would catch on to my Forrest comment! Carryon Nut!!

[Ravage!!!]

True. Lloyd has not previously been elite, and he may not be in the future.
But this year, he is elite. His production backs that up . . .

-----

This year he's playing well. I don't believe that makes him elite, considering his lack of production in every other season he's played. Many players have those career years.

[Bosco]

Yes, that's about it. Ignore Lloyd's first seven seasons and Marshall's first four, and just claim that Brandon L > Brandon M. Who cares about the previous years? Save that for when the times come to evaluate and compare their respective careers. In the here and now, Lloyd has been a significant upgrade even from what Marshall produced last year and comes with a cheaper price tag and much less baggage.


Not to mention ignoring the other factors, like the amount Den has passed this year due to havig the work run game in the NFL. If you want to go down that road, I can point out that here in Denver, Marshall was playing the Y receiver role which is almost exclusively short and intermediate routes that carry a much higher completion percentage than the deep routes Lloyd runs as the X receiver, yet Lloyd is having even a better season than the 2009 Brandon Marshall. Lloyd is simply making far more of his opportunities than Marshall ever did.


Lloyd has had a GREAT season, but it wasn't an upgrade, as he was already on the team. If you want to get absolutely technical about it, Lloyd isn't an upgrade because he plays a completely different receiver position than Marshall did. Gaffney is the one who took over Marshall's old role and his performance is basically neck and neck with Marshall this year with an extra touchdown for good measure.


The team would have been better off with both Brandons on the field. Sure, but that would have been a massive over investment in the position with the biggest single investment tied up in the guy perfectly suited for the #3 spot in the offense.

[topscribe]

This year he's playing well. I don't believe that makes him elite, considering his lack of production in every other season he's played. Many players have those career years.

That is why, Ravage, I explained - at a very elementary level - that this year
I consider Lloyd elite. I went on to explain that he had not achieved that in
the past, and he may not in the future. But, this year, he is playing at an
elite level.

What part of this do you not understand? :noidea:

-----

[Tned]

This year he's playing well. I don't believe that makes him elite, considering his lack of production in every other season he's played. Many players have those career years.

Yes, I guess by this 'creative' measuring stick, Hillis is elite and a better player than Ray Rice, Matt Forte and many others...

[topscribe]

Yes, I guess by this 'creative' measuring stick, Hillis is elite and a better player than Ray Rice, Matt Forte and many others...

This year, and this year only, so far, up to this point, maybe so.

I've never been all that high on Forte, anyway . . .

-----

[Bosco]

That was my first reaction. What War is talking about is how things turned
out this year. It seems to me that some of those who are bringing up past
comparisons have stated, on other issues, that the past doesn't count. Now,
all the sudden, it does.

Of course. They need to change horses to win this debate rather than just concede the point.

[silkamilkamonico]

This year, and this year only, so far, up to this point, maybe so.

I've never been all that high on Forte, anyway . . .

-----

In a "what have you done for me lately" league, any argument of what happened yesteryea is ridiculous, IMHO.

Nobody cares what happened last year in the NFL. You don't have to look past Brett Favre and Minnesota to figure that one out.

That sound you just heard was Brandon Marshall dropping another football.

[MileHighCrew]

I hate Brett Favre so it hurts me to write this because I don't think he deserves it but..... do you think this year will be the determining factor of him getting into the HOF. No career in the NFL is made in a year. If it was TD would be in the HOF a long time ago.

I love the fact Lloyd is having a career year but that doesn't eliminate what Marshall did when he was here. In Mike's and McD's pass happy offences Marshall was awesome.

[topscribe]

I hate Brett Favre so it hurts me to write this because I don't think he deserves it but..... do you think this year will be the determining factor of him getting into the HOF. No career in the NFL is made in a year. If it was TD would be in the HOF a long time ago.

I love the fact Lloyd is having a career year but that doesn't eliminate what Marshall did when he was here. In Mike's and McD's pass happy offences Marshall was awesome.

There were times Marshall was Superman. He just kicked butt on the field.

Then there were other times he disappeared . . . like in the end zone.

Until McDaniels made him disappear completely . . . apparently over attitude.

Attitude can have a dramatic effect on a career (see Randy Moss).

-----

[silkamilkamonico]

I love the fact Lloyd is having a career year but that doesn't eliminate what Marshall did when he was here. In Mike's and McD's pass happy offences Marshall was awesome.

I would never deny Marshall in Denver, and I still do think Marshall is, and will continue to be an elite WR for a long time. If our WR unit was struggling this year I would feel different. But right now the WR position I feel is not only very good, but deep, and will be around for a long time with young talent as well. Unfortunately it's the only position on the team I feel that way about right now.

[Northman]

Lmao, absolutely hysterical.

[Northman]

exactly. It's like what exactly is your point here WH? Yay, our Brandon looks better on paper than Miami's, yet, we still suck.

:simulatesjerkingoff:


:lol::lol::lol:

Booya.

[topscribe]

exactly. It's like what exactly is your point here WH? Yay, our Brandon looks better on paper than Miami's, yet, we still suck.

:simulatesjerkingoff:

Maybe it's called "Wide Receivers Do Not Play Defense"?

-----

[Lancane]

In a "what have you done for me lately" league, any argument of what happened yesteryea is ridiculous, IMHO.

Nobody cares what happened last year in the NFL. You don't have to look past Brett Favre and Minnesota to figure that one out.

That sound you just heard was Brandon Marshall dropping another football.

What have you done for me now is not the measure of a great player, when you consider all variables, including the offensive system that any particular athlete succeeded within. Marshall has played in four different systems, and been successful in each one; Lloyd nor Orton can claim as much, their marginal success has all come by way of the spread based offensive scheme, period...there is no argument that supercedes that one fact. Great players find away to succeed in any system, not all we'll excel immediately, but that is a better measure of a Great Football player then one or two good seasons, even five if it looks to be the work of a system, especially one noted to be friendly in a particular facet of an offense.

[Northman]

This board never ceases to make me laugh. Great joke War, i needed it.

[BroncoNut]

Please visit the BrocosOutsiders and reference the Brandon Lloyd thread authored by No.1BrandonLloydfan (known as bronconut on other forums). I called this out early in the season. I saw this coming years ago. I'm pleased it happened with my favorite NFL team.

[topscribe]

What have you done for me now is not the measure of a great player, when you consider all variables, including the offensive system that any particular athlete succeeded within. Marshall has played in four different systems, and been successful in each one; Lloyd nor Orton can claim as much, their marginal success has all come by way of the spread based offensive scheme, period...there is no argument that supercedes that one fact. Great players find away to succeed in any system, not all we'll excel immediately, but that is a better measure of a Great Football player then one or two good seasons, even five if it looks to be the work of a system, especially one noted to be friendly in a particular facet of an offense.

On Lloyd, no argument. In fact there are seasons in which he could not have
been successful at all. But what Silk pointed out is all too true: It is what
they are doing now. In that respect, Lloyd has thoroughly outplayed
Marshall . . . this year. And this year is all that matters, this year.

Regarding Orton, I don't think it's fair to compare. He is a QB, not a WR.
He has only 3½ years actually on the field. The first was as a rookie. Most
all rookie QBs stink up the joint, so that year is moot. The second, in 2008
(he sat out all but three games in 2006 & 2007), was developmental. The
third, he started to show up. This year, he is playing lights out. That is not
all that unusual in the development of a QB (see Drew Brees).

For that reason, it's best to keep the discussion to WRs . . .

-----

[TXBRONC]

This year he's playing well. I don't believe that makes him elite, considering his lack of production in every other season he's played. Many players have those career years.

Agreed. Elite status isn't based off of one season alone.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[topscribe]

This board never ceases to make me laugh. Great joke War, i needed it.


Please visit the BrocosOutsiders and reference the Brandon Lloyd thread authored by No.1BrandonLloydfan (known as bronconut on other forums). I called this out early in the season. I saw this coming years ago. I'm pleased it happened with my favorite NFL team.

Yes, we understand. You are looking down on us in amusement in your
intellectual superiority, at our nonsensical bantering over trivial issues.

Standpoint noted . . . :coffee:

-----

[Northman]

Yes, we understand. You are looking down on us in amusement in your
intellectual superiority, at our nonsensical bantering over trivial issues.

Standpoint noted . . . :coffee:

-----

Pot meet kettle....

[Ravage!!!]

I would never deny Marshall in Denver, and I still do think Marshall is, and will continue to be an elite WR for a long time. If our WR unit was struggling this year I would feel different. But right now the WR position I feel is not only very good, but deep, and will be around for a long time with young talent as well. Unfortunately it's the only position on the team I feel that way about right now.

THe numbers look nice... but what WR could Orton look to when we needed a 1st down against the Chargers? Where was Lloyd, where was Gaffney.. where was anyone??? 1-11 says it all. Our WR corp is ok. I mean, they've produced some ok numbers, right along with Orton. But just simply looking at the stat sheet doesn't really tell the story.

Our defense held SD pretty well considering how many times they STARTED the ball near mid-field. Our offense couldn't move enough even to PUNT it a safe distance. When you throw as much as we do, and you have that kind of lack of execution, thats not a sign that the WRs are "fine."

[Northman]

I think its safe to say that Llyod has benefitted greatly from the "system" that McD uses. Marshall however has shown he can make plays out of nothing and therein lies the difference between the players as WR's.

[topscribe]

THe numbers look nice... but what WR could Orton look to when we needed a 1st down against the Chargers? Where was Lloyd, where was Gaffney.. where was anyone??? 1-11 says it all. Our WR corp is ok. I mean, they've produced some ok numbers, right along with Orton. But just simply looking at the stat sheet doesn't really tell the story.

Our defense held SD pretty well considering how many times they STARTED the ball near mid-field. Our offense couldn't move enough even to PUNT it a safe distance. When you throw as much as we do, and you have that kind of lack of execution, thats not a sign that the WRs are "fine."

Rav, I asked the same questions after some games in 2008: Where is Marshall?
Where is Royal? Where is Stokely?

And if 4 TDs by Rivers and 111 yards by Tolbert are "okay," then I don't
think much of our standards . . .

-----

[topscribe]

I think its safe to say that Llyod has benefitted greatly from the "system" that McD uses. Marshall however has shown he can make plays out of nothing and therein lies the difference between the players as WR's.

There we go again with the "system" thing. Production is production. Period.

I suppose the acrobatic catches Lloyd has made are products of the "system"?
Nope . . . I don't think it is fair to say that . . .

-----

[Northman]

There we go again with the "system" thing. Production is production. Period.

I suppose the acrobatic catches Lloyd has made are products of the "system"?
Nope . . . I don't think it is fair to say that . . .

-----

It cant be denied. He was average prior to coming to Denver. In 8 years this is his first 1,000 yd season. Dont like that fact? Too bad you will get over it.

[Ravage!!!]

Rav, I asked the same questions after some games in 2008: Where is Marshall?
Where is Royal? Where is Stokely?

And if 4 TDs by Rivers and 111 yards by Tolbert are "okay," then I don't
think much of our standards . . .

-----

The offense absolutely.. ABSOLUTELY.. did NOTHING to help out our defense. Nothing. They were pathetic. We were 1-11 on third downs, and we either punted or threw INTs after the 1st series. Their starting field position was NEAR mid field!! What defense can constantly be on the field, defend a short field, and hold a team like SD anyway?

Hey.. I'm not saying our defense is good by any means. But the honest truth of the matter is, our OFFENSE completely ... COMPLETELY... lost this game, and thats a direct result of our team having lack of talent on the outsides to keep drives moving. They didn't do a SINGLE THING to keep SD's offense off the field.

If THIS is what we consider to have a QB that is "fine".. and a WR corp that is "fine".. then I don't know what there is to look forward too other than more 3 win seasons.

[BroncoNut]

Yes, we understand. You are looking down on us in amusement in your
intellectual superiority, at our nonsensical bantering over trivial issues.

Standpoint noted . . . :coffee:

-----

completely uncalled for Top. finish your prunejuice and go to your room!

[topscribe]

It cant be denied. He was average prior to coming to Denver. In 8 years this is his first 1,000 yd season. Dont like that fact? Too bad you will get over it.

I guess you did not bother to read any of my previous posts. Either that, or
they went over your head. I already said Lloyd previously had done nothing
special, and that some years could not even be considered successful. I don't
know how to break it down more elementary than I did . . .

-----

[Lancane]

On Lloyd, no argument. In fact there are seasons in which he could not have
been successful at all. But what Silk pointed out is all too true: It is what
they are doing now. In that respect, Lloyd has thoroughly outplayed
Marshall . . . this year. And this year is all that matters, this year.

Regarding Orton, I don't think it's fair to compare. He is a QB, not a WR.
He has only 3½ years actually on the field. The first was as a rookie. Most
all rookie QBs stink up the joint, so that year is moot. The second, in 2008
(he sat out all but three games in 2006 & 2007), was developmental. The
third, he started to show up. This year, he is playing lights out. That is not
all that unusual in the development of a QB (see Drew Brees).

For that reason, it's best to keep the discussion to WRs . . .

-----

Not really Top...and how is it, that this year is the only one that matters? Being that our record is a lousy 3-7? Last year we were 8-8 overall and a couple of those wins were in fact because of Brandon Marshall. Stats are meaningless unless they represent the team improving or winning, because that's the bottom line.

And Orton is just as much a part of the discussion, he's having a tremendous year...except that now he's showing signs of his old self, he's becoming erratic on the field, people around the league are starting to take note of his short comings, when a great head coach like Gruden starts mentioning that McDaniels has Orton playing to pad his stats...do you not think people will take note? McDaniels hasn't proven anything, so in that respect more people are going to listen to the proven guy more. Orton played in a spread variant offense at Southeast Polk, and was really successful, that was a major factor in Joe Tiller's pursuit of Orton to play for Purdue. He was horrid in Chicago which uses a variant of the west coast offense, he wasn't improving...or they wouldn't have traded the house and farm for a better quarterback! So yes, the quarterback is a legit argument, because as far as I can tell, unlike Drew Brees...Orton can only succeed in one particular system and only looks to be as good as his numbers are because McDaniels loves padding stats.

One season is not the measure of any athlete...even the great Jerry Rice had a couple bad seasons, same with Owens and many other above average wideouts...point is that one great season by a mediocre wideout (Remember Ashlie Lelie) is not comparable to a productive, yet not so great year for a continuously great wide receiver. To even think such is an insult to the football gods themselves.

[Northman]

I guess you did not bother to read any of my previous posts. Either that, or
they went over your head. I already said Lloyd previously had done nothing
special, and that some years could not even be considered successful. I don't
know how to break it down more elementary than I did . . .

-----


Then your confusing yourself. One year does not make an elite player at any level. Secondly, ive already stated why the players are different and why one is better than the other in which you disagreed with the "system" label but turns out to be 100% true because of the history with those players. Its not rocket science to see the differences of those players. Whoopee Doo that Lloyd can make a couple of great catches. Great receivers dont take 8 years to reach that level. I cant make it any clearer for ya.

[topscribe]

The offense absolutely.. ABSOLUTELY.. did NOTHING to help out our defense. Nothing. They were pathetic. We were 1-11 on third downs, and we either punted or threw INTs after the 1st series. Their starting field position was NEAR mid field!! What defense can constantly be on the field, defend a short field, and hold a team like SD anyway?

Hey.. I'm not saying our defense is good by any means. But the honest truth of the matter is, our OFFENSE completely ... COMPLETELY... lost this game, and thats a direct result of our team having lack of talent on the outsides to keep drives moving. They didn't do a SINGLE THING to keep SD's offense off the field.

If THIS is what we consider to have a QB that is "fine".. and a WR corp that is "fine".. then I don't know what there is to look forward too other than more 3 win seasons.

We're not all that far apart, Rav, although I think you're just being a bit
too pessimistic and are giving the defense a little bit too much credit and
the offense a little bit too much blame.

But I think we're close enough that we can agree to disagree. I hope so,
anyway. I'm tired . . . worked all day and late into last night (this morning?).
I'm tired. Talk atcha later. :wave:

-----

[topscribe]

Then your confusing yourself. One year does not make an elite player at any level. Secondly, ive already stated why the players are different and why one is better than the other in which you disagreed with the "system" label but turns out to be 100% true because of the history with those players. Its not rocket science to see the differences of those players. Whoopee Doo that Lloyd can make a couple of great catches. Great receivers dont take 8 years to reach that level. I cant make it any clearer for ya.

Too bad you cannot understand what I write. Most people can, quite well.
That is one reason for my username.

Whatever. Hope it all clears up for you . . .

-----

[Bosco]

It cant be denied. He was average prior to coming to Denver. In 8 years this is his first 1,000 yd season. Dont like that fact? Too bad you will get over it.

Your fact is correct, but the cause isn't. Lloyd himself has been pretty open about the fact that he finally dedicated himself to being a professional instead of relying on his physical talent. There isn't much "system" to his production. His job is to get deep and stretch the defense.

[topscribe]

Not really Top...and how is it, that this year is the only one that matters? Being that our record is a lousy 3-7? Last year we were 8-8 overall and a couple of those wins were in fact because of Brandon Marshall. Stats are meaningless unless they represent the team improving or winning, because that's the bottom line.

And Orton is just as much a part of the discussion, he's having a tremendous year...except that now he's showing signs of his old self, he's becoming erratic on the field, people around the league are starting to take note of his short comings, when a great head coach like Gruden starts mentioning that McDaniels has Orton playing to pad his stats...do you not think people will take note? McDaniels hasn't proven anything, so in that respect more people are going to listen to the proven guy more. Orton played in a spread variant offense at Southeast Polk, and was really successful, that was a major factor in Joe Tiller's pursuit of Orton to play for Purdue. He was horrid in Chicago which uses a variant of the west coast offense, he wasn't improving...or they wouldn't have traded the house and farm for a better quarterback! So yes, the quarterback is a legit argument, because as far as I can tell, unlike Drew Brees...Orton can only succeed in one particular system and only looks to be as good as his numbers are because McDaniels loves padding stats.

One season is not the measure of any athlete...even the great Jerry Rice had a couple bad seasons, same with Owens and many other above average wideouts...point is that one great season by a mediocre wideout (Remember Ashlie Lelie) is not comparable to a productive, yet not so great year for a continuously great wide receiver. To even think such is an insult to the football gods themselves.

Because when this year is the only one in consideration, then this year is
the only one that matters. I don't know how it can be more basic than
that. :noidea:

-----

[Ravage!!!]

Not really Top...and how is it, that this year is the only one that matters? Being that our record is a lousy 3-7? Last year we were 8-8 overall and a couple of those wins were in fact because of Brandon Marshall. Stats are meaningless unless they represent the team improving or winning, because that's the bottom line.

And Orton is just as much a part of the discussion, he's having a tremendous year...except that now he's showing signs of his old self, he's becoming erratic on the field, people around the league are starting to take note of his short comings, when a great head coach like Gruden starts mentioning that McDaniels has Orton playing to pad his stats...do you not think people will take note? McDaniels hasn't proven anything, so in that respect more people are going to listen to the proven guy more. Orton played in a spread variant offense at Southeast Polk, and was really successful, that was a major factor in Joe Tiller's pursuit of Orton to play for Purdue. He was horrid in Chicago which uses a variant of the west coast offense, he wasn't improving...or they wouldn't have traded the house and farm for a better quarterback! So yes, the quarterback is a legit argument, because as far as I can tell, unlike Drew Brees...Orton can only succeed in one particular system and only looks to be as good as his numbers are because McDaniels loves padding stats.

One season is not the measure of any athlete...even the great Jerry Rice had a couple bad seasons, same with Owens and many other above average wideouts...point is that one great season by a mediocre wideout (Remember Ashlie Lelie) is not comparable to a productive, yet not so great year for a continuously great wide receiver. To even think such is an insult to the football gods themselves.

Not to mention..I thought "sitting" on the bench was supposed to be good for a QB?? :confused: If not, then why the heck isn't Tebow finally getting some starting time, again??

[Northman]

Your fact is correct, but the cause isn't. Lloyd himself has been pretty open about the fact that he finally dedicated himself to being a professional instead of relying on his physical talent. There isn't much "system" to his production. His job is to get deep and stretch the defense.


Again, i say it doesnt take 8 years to become an "elite" player as was suggested by Top. While he might have dedicated himself to the game more he benefits greatly from a system that was installed in NE and has made average receivers look fantastic. Marshall benefitted from that last year but he was also a great player before McD got here so its pretty obvious that Marshall is a better player than Lloyd.

[topscribe]

Again, i say it doesnt take 8 years to become an "elite" player as was suggested by Top. While he might have dedicated himself to the game more he benefits greatly from a system that was installed in NE and has made average receivers look fantastic. Marshall benefitted from that last year but he was also a great player before McD got here so its pretty obvious that Marshall is a better player than Lloyd.

I did not suggest that. I have never suggested that. I would not ever
suggest that.

You know, I have refrained from saying this up until now, but I can't help
myself: I think you need help in reading comprehension.

Okay, mods, bring on the "Concerning Your Post."

I'm outta here for the day . . .

-----

[Ravage!!!]

Your fact is correct, but the cause isn't. Lloyd himself has been pretty open about the fact that he finally dedicated himself to being a professional instead of relying on his physical talent. There isn't much "system" to his production. His job is to get deep and stretch the defense.

Whats he supposed to say when asked why this year is better than his past fails in the NFL? "It just took me longer than most to finally figure out how to play?" No. He's going to say "I finally decided to take it seriously, and this is how good I am when I'm serious." Thats what anyone would say, especially a player that is looking to get a fat contract after this season is over.

[Northman]

I did not suggest that. You know, I have refrained from saying this up until
now, but I can't help myself: I think you need help in reading comprehension.

Okay, mods, bring on the "Concerning Your Post."

I'm outta here for the day . . .

-----

Post #17


And now they have gained what this year is an elite receiver and lost a little
boy. That, in my book, has been a huge gain .

Yea, i need better reading comprehension. :lol:

[BroncoNut]

just razzing you Top.


personally, I don't think Marshall is that great of a receiver. IOW, I actually do think that Brandon is a better receiver in not all, but many aspects. Marshall drops alot more passes for one thing, and Lloyd makes catches that Marshall never would. Marshall is better with the YACs by far.

[Lancane]

Because when this year is the only one in consideration, then this year is
the only one that matters. I don't know how it can be more basic than
that. :noidea:

-----

It matters that this is the season in which we see Lloyd playing up to his potential, but not in the measure of his success or that of Marshall's own. It's logical Top that some want to use Lloyd's success this season as a basis for trading one of the league's best young wideouts, but the only way we could officially measured it, is if the team remained comparable to last season in almost every way, give Lloyd over Marshall and then only by the success they had as individual receivers...so pretty much if this team was similar to last years and we we're 10-6 and in the playoffs, and those picks given for Marshall panned out then yes...the trade was very successful. But it wasn't and it's still to be determined if it will be. Marshall brought another dimension to the offense, because he could do things that Lloyd and the majority of the league's receivers couldn't do, that's make things happen when they needed to happen, that's the measure of a game breaker.

[Ravage!!!]

And now they have gained what this year is an elite receiver and lost a little
boy. That, in my book, has been a huge gain . . .

-----


True. Lloyd has not previously been elite, and he may not be in the future.
But this year, he is elite. His production backs that up . . .

-----


That is why, Ravage, I explained - at a very elementary level - that this year
I consider Lloyd elite. I went on to explain that he had not achieved that in
the past, and he may not in the future. But, this year, he is playing at an
elite level.

What part of this do you not understand? :noidea:

-----


Because when this year is the only one in consideration, then this year is
the only one that matters. I don't know how it can be more basic than
that. :noidea:

-----




Top, you have said, several times, that you consider him to be an elite WR... even if you are saying its "only" this year (which really, doesn't hold much substance).

The guy is having a career year, but there is no way anyone should be using the word "elite" to describe him. Not after 8 seasons in the NFL.

[TXBRONC]

Top, you have said, several times, that you consider him to be an elite WR... even if you are saying its "only" this year (which really, doesn't hold much substance).

The guy is having a career year, but there is no way anyone should be using the word "elite" to describe him. Not after 8 seasons in the NFL.

I can't recall elite status being applied to a player after just one season.
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[topscribe]

It matters that this is the season in which we see Lloyd playing up to his potential, but not in the measure of his success or that of Marshall's own. It's logical Top that some want to use Lloyd's success this season as a basis for trading one of the league's best young wideouts, but the only way we could officially measured it, is if the team remained comparable to last season in almost every way, give Lloyd over Marshall and then only by the success they had as individual receivers...so pretty much if this team was similar to last years and we we're 10-6 and in the playoffs, and those picks given for Marshall panned out then yes...the trade was very successful. But it wasn't and it's still to be determined if it will be. Marshall brought another dimension to the offense, because he could do things that Lloyd and the majority of the league's receivers couldn't do, that's make things happen when they needed to happen, that's the measure of a game breaker.


Top, you have said, several times, that you consider him to be an elite WR... even if you are saying its "only" this year (which really, doesn't hold much substance).

The guy is having a career year, but there is no way anyone should be using the word "elite" to describe him. Not after 8 seasons in the NFL.

Okay, so I checked back on you. So what? :D

Okay, so let's just throw the semantics out on this. I'll just say Lloyd has
been playing at an elite level this year. I don't know how that can be
debated. And I don't mean even to imply that he is generally an elite WR.
I am still hoping for the emergence of TD, partly because I believe Lloyd
would make a fantastic #2 receiver.

But I still like the fact that Marshall is gone. Every one of the Super Bowl
teams has done it without him, so I reckon it can be done. And I believe a
terrific WR corps is forming in Denver . . .

-----

[WARHORSE]

Simply put, Brandon is NOT worth the money he wanted, and even Miami insulated themselves from being locked in long term.


Larry Fitzgerald is worth the money.

Andre Johnson is worth the money.

Calvin Johnson is worth the money.


So McDaniels and crew......you know, all the guys that watched practices day in and day out last year?..........decide they can do without BM, and instead opt to trade him for 2 second rounders.

Not to mention BM WANTED TO LEAVE. Any bells ringing here?


It would have been a MISTAKE to have signed BM. Not to mention his physical style of play will make his career substantially shorter.



Denver: Smart move.

Miami: Not so smart move.

[Tned]

Simply put, Brandon is NOT worth the money he wanted, and even Miami insulated themselves from being locked in long term.


Larry Fitzgerald is worth the money.

Andre Johnson is worth the money.

Calvin Johnson is worth the money.


So McDaniels and crew......you know, all the guys that watched practices day in and day out last year?..........decide they can do without BM, and instead opt to trade him for 2 second rounders.

Not to mention BM WANTED TO LEAVE. Any bells ringing here?


It would have been a MISTAKE to have signed BM. Not to mention his physical style of play will make his career substantially shorter.



Denver: Smart move.

Miami: Not so smart move.

3-7, let's be careful in proclaiming too quickly what was or wasn't smart moves.

[Bosco]

Again, i say it doesnt take 8 years to become an "elite" player as was suggested by Top. While he might have dedicated himself to the game more he benefits greatly from a system that was installed in NE and has made average receivers look fantastic. Marshall benefitted from that last year but he was also a great player before McD got here so its pretty obvious that Marshall is a better player than Lloyd.

I wouldn't call Lloyd an elite receiver. An elite performance this year, yes, but he's still got a ways to go to become an elite player. Also, can you give some specific explanation on how this system is making Lloyd look better than he really is?

[BroncoNut]

I wouldn't call Lloyd an elite receiver. An elite performance this year, yes, but he's still got a ways to go to become an elite player. Also, can you give some specific explanation on how this system is making Lloyd look better than he really is?

I was going to ask a similar question. I think if anything, it's that Orton threw to Lloyd in Chicago before.

[Tned]

I was going to ask a similar question. I think if anything, it's that Orton threw to Lloyd in Chicago before.

Based on what I have read/heard, Lloyd was always known for making the spectacular catch, but what plagued him his first 7 seasons was dropping the normal catches. Through most of this year, he's hauled in everything sent his direction.

[TXBRONC]

Simply put, Brandon is NOT worth the money he wanted, and even Miami insulated themselves from being locked in long term.


Larry Fitzgerald is worth the money.

Andre Johnson is worth the money.

Calvin Johnson is worth the money.


So McDaniels and crew......you know, all the guys that watched practices day in and day out last year?..........decide they can do without BM, and instead opt to trade him for 2 second rounders.

Not to mention BM WANTED TO LEAVE. Any bells ringing here?


It would have been a MISTAKE to have signed BM. Not to mention his physical style of play will make his career substantially shorter.



Denver: Smart move.

Miami: Not so smart move.

As was mentioned previously it's premature at best to call those moves great in light of the fact we're 3-7.
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[Lancane]

I wouldn't call Lloyd an elite receiver. An elite performance this year, yes, but he's still got a ways to go to become an elite player. Also, can you give some specific explanation on how this system is making Lloyd look better than he really is?

That's simple enough in itself, it's making Orton look better then he is. Orton is in a passer friendly system that is known for padding stats, and because such is looking superior himself, as his number one target...Lloyd then benefits from the mass passes sent his way, so he does benefit, however...he's always had the potential to be better and the fact he's catching almost everything sent his way shows that he's improving. He's had a mediocre career and it's good to see him finally flourish, hopefully he can continue to produce and I agree with Top, that Lloyd would be an excellent number two receiver.

[Bosco]

That's simple enough in itself, it's making Orton look better then he is. Orton is in a passer friendly system that is known for padding stats, and because such is looking superior himself, as his number one target...Lloyd then benefits from the mass passes sent his way, so he does benefit, however...he's always had the potential to be better and the fact he's catching almost everything sent his way shows that he's improving. He's had a mediocre career and it's good to see him finally flourish, hopefully he can continue to produce and I agree with Top, that Lloyd would be an excellent number two receiver.

You're not explaining how it is making him look better. I want an explanation, not cliches, that explain how McDaniels' offense is more quarterback or receiver friendly than the old WCO or Air Coryell offenses.

(I know the answer, but I'll let you guys try to explain it)

[gobroncsnv]

Don't think anyone is disputing that the team is 3-7... but are you disputing that our pass offense has not suffered since giving up Marshall?
I say we have something to build on, someone to build with, as opposed to Marshall, who turned out to be both baby AND T.O. At one point he was my adopted Bronco, but I got over it. He has all the potential in the world, but the NFL is not a league for divas, and he's proven both with us and now Miami that he's just not a good pro. Now that Jerry Rice fella, he was a good pro. Rod Smith, he was a good pro, Eddie Mac... there ya go!
I love the fact that the whiny look at me type wideouts have so few rings among them. (TO, Chad, BMarsh, Moss, and the etc's = 0 so far) Keyshawn is the only one, and it darn sure wasn't because of him that the Bucs got theirs.
So long Brandon, and hope the door DID hit you on the way out.

[TXBRONC]

Don't think anyone is disputing that the team is 3-7... but are you disputing that our pass offense has not suffered since giving up Marshall?
I say we have something to build on, someone to build with, as opposed to Marshall, who turned out to be both baby AND T.O. At one point he was my adopted Bronco, but I got over it. He has all the potential in the world, but the NFL is not a league for divas, and he's proven both with us and now Miami that he's just not a good pro. Now that Jerry Rice fella, he was a good pro. Rod Smith, he was a good pro, Eddie Mac... there ya go!
I love the fact that the whiny look at me type wideouts have so few rings among them. (TO, Chad, BMarsh, Moss, and the etc's = 0 so far) Keyshawn is the only one, and it darn sure wasn't because of him that the Bucs got theirs.
So long Brandon, and hope the door DID hit you on the way out.

We're getting more but it's not netting more points so it's debatable if it is really something to build on imho.
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[Lancane]

You're not explaining how it is making him look better. I want an explanation, not cliches, that explain how McDaniels' offense is more quarterback or receiver friendly than the old WCO or Air Coryell offenses.

(I know the answer, but I'll let you guys try to explain it)

Anyone who understands the fundamentals of the different offensive systems can explain this...the West Coast and Air Coryell, even the infamous Run & Gun schemes are flawed systems; the rely more on superior play from multiple positions. The Spread system was in fact created to lessen the need for superior play at multiple positions, but also to eliminate the mistakes that are more common in the better known high powered offensive systems. Some believe that the spread schemes are Dink n' Dunk in nature, which is false...in fact the system allows for shorter passes only to eliminate the mistakes that lead to turnovers common with other offenses, by giving other options to the quarterbacks other then just two or three receiving options. It is also well known for being able to succeed without a run game, as we've seen, though a solid running game helps, the reason for that is that the short passes make up for what falls short at times when a team lacks the ability to run.

However, if a spread offense is latent with talent, they tend to succeed far beyond the other offensive systems more common in American Football, as we've seen with New England over the years. High Schools and Colleges are switching to the spread variant offenses more and more over the last few years to makeup for what they may lack in overall talent, something the other systems can not do. That's partially why I wanted Marshall to remain, he was almost perfect in the scheme because of his ability to make things happen from almost anywhere on the field. With that said, I still believe that Lloyd is showing what he's capable of based on his own talent, the system is only helping him succeed, the same for Orton.

[gobroncsnv]

Well, I guess we differ then... to me, Marshall was the correct Brandon to get rid of, and Lloyd is the correct one to build with. There are many examples around the league of late bloomers, just as there are early wilters.

[LoyalSoldier]

I am glad Lloyd has worked for us this year, but let's not jump the gun and say he is going to keep up this pace. Anyone can have one great year, but a great player is someone who can do it time and time again.

[TXBRONC]

Again imo while Lloyd is having a career year one thing I've noticed is that he struggles against corners that are physical with him at the line of scrimmage.
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[Northman]

That's simple enough in itself, it's making Orton look better then he is. Orton is in a passer friendly system that is known for padding stats, and because such is looking superior himself, as his number one target...Lloyd then benefits from the mass passes sent his way, so he does benefit, however...he's always had the potential to be better and the fact he's catching almost everything sent his way shows that he's improving. He's had a mediocre career and it's good to see him finally flourish, hopefully he can continue to produce and I agree with Top, that Lloyd would be an excellent number two receiver.

^What he said.

[I Eat Staples]

If Brandon Lloyd was on the Dolphins he wouldn't even be relevant, so this argument holds very little weight.

The only valid point the OP has is the price tag. I wouldn't pay the type of money Marshall is getting for the least important position in the NFL. Marshall is much better than Lloyd and Lloyd is still putting up better stats. This proves my point that WR is not an important position, not your point that Lloyd is better than Marshall.

[nevcraw]

3-7, let's be careful in proclaiming too quickly what was or wasn't smart moves.

Amen.

[Bosco]

Anyone who understands the fundamentals of the different offensive systems can explain this...the West Coast and Air Coryell, even the infamous Run & Gun schemes are flawed systems; the rely more on superior play from multiple positions. The Spread system was in fact created to lessen the need for superior play at multiple positions, but also to eliminate the mistakes that are more common in the better known high powered offensive systems. Some believe that the spread schemes are Dink n' Dunk in nature, which is false...in fact the system allows for shorter passes only to eliminate the mistakes that lead to turnovers common with other offenses, by giving other options to the quarterbacks other then just two or three receiving options. It is also well known for being able to succeed without a run game, as we've seen, though a solid running game helps, the reason for that is that the short passes make up for what falls short at times when a team lacks the ability to run.

However, if a spread offense is latent with talent, they tend to succeed far beyond the other offensive systems more common in American Football, as we've seen with New England over the years. High Schools and Colleges are switching to the spread variant offenses more and more over the last few years to makeup for what they may lack in overall talent, something the other systems can not do. That's partially why I wanted Marshall to remain, he was almost perfect in the scheme because of his ability to make things happen from almost anywhere on the field. With that said, I still believe that Lloyd is showing what he's capable of based on his own talent, the system is only helping him succeed, the same for Orton.

That isn't the system making the players look better than they are, it's coaches knowing what they want in a player for their system. Shanahan did it for years with running backs and offensive linemen. They knew exactly what they wanted in those positions and were able to constantly fill those positions even when the player wasn't a universally sought after prospect. New England does that same with many of their players. So does Indy, the Giants and many other teams that have well established schemes with continuity.

It's not about making the player look better than they are. It's about putting the players in position to succeed based on what they do best.

[Northman]

That isn't the system making the players look better than they are, it's coaches knowing what they want in a player for their system. Shanahan did it for years with running backs and offensive linemen. They knew exactly what they wanted in those positions and were able to constantly fill those positions even when the player wasn't a universally sought after prospect. New England does that same with many of their players. So does Indy, the Giants and many other teams that have well established schemes with continuity.

It's not about making the player look better than they are. It's about putting the players in position to succeed based on what they do best.

Interesting. For years commentators said that Denver was successful with any RB because of the system they use.

[Bosco]

Interesting. For years commentators said that Denver was successful with any RB because of the system they use.

They'd be partly right, but the other half of that equation is getting players who fit the scheme and can flourish in it. Not every running back is a fit for the ZBS, but Shanahan, Gibbs, and Turner knew exactly what they needed so their misses were few and far between.

It's what every good coach aims to do.

[robert ethan]

I think what we're seeing is the chemistry between Orton and Lloyd that was first established in Chicago three seasons ago. But Brandon was stuck behind the incumbents when he came to Denver. Now he gets a chance to team up with Kyle again. The team is better off with Lloyd being the primary target than Marshall for that reason. Marshall was Cutler's favorite target. They came up together and worked out together in the off season along with Scheffler. It's not a reflection of the talent of the individual players here so much as it is a situational thing.

[gobroncsnv]

So nobody's throwing and nobody's catching.... man, heck of a system... situations, chemistry, system, nothing about individual talent, heart, etc.

By the way, how bout Nevada taking down Boise?

[TimTebow15MVP]

Uhmmm.... so we just using Lloyd's best year and comparing to Marshall's worst, and calling it a win? :lol: Ooo Kayyy. Sounds reasonable.

Want to compare the three years prior to this one, and feel that we came out ahead?? :lol:

yeah nothing like marshall catching 100 balls and having what 5-6 touchdowns lol. he had his best year under mcdaniels if you wanna be real. the nfl is a what have you done for me lately league playa. Like it or not the broncos won big in dumping marshall, making lloyd and then got two 2nds in the process and it will be a prettyy high 2nd at that.

So while your comparing your stats from 3 years ago marshall right now is out for weeks with a bad hammy. But its okay you can go watch marshall on youtube. ill watch lloyd light it up on sundays. :beer:

[TimTebow15MVP]

Yes, that's about it. Ignore Lloyd's first seven seasons and Marshall's first four, and just claim that Brandon L > Brandon M.

Not to mention ignoring the other factors, like the amount Den has passed this year due to havig the work run game in the NFL.

Lloyd has had a GREAT season, but it wasn't an upgrade, as he was already on the team.

The team would have been better off with both Brandons on the field.

:lol: all i can do is laugh at that. :laugh:

[TimTebow15MVP]

At the end of the day **** marshall. he is not a bronco. he is in the afc. he is enemy. he is not a deep threat, he quits. he gets tired. then he pulls his hammy. then he throws a fit. then he makes a catch for 15 yards and a first down and then he gets a 15 yard unsportsmanlike conduct penalty. then he fakes injuries. then he punts balls in practice. then he drops balls in practice. then he drops balls in games. then he gets DUIs. shall i continue?

that lloyd guy just catches balls..........

[Tned]

:lol: all i can do is laugh at that. :laugh:

I'm not surprised that's all you're capable of. Keep up the good work... :salute: