With hindsight, what do you think of personnel moves of the last 18 months?

[Tned]

Ok, we're going to play the hindsight is 20/20 game. The major crticism of McDaniels right now seems to be the personnel/GM hat he's been wearing. So, let's explore that.

Knowing what you know today, how players have played on other teams, Broncos being 5-15 in last 20, etc., how do you rate the personell moves of the last 18 months or so.

I might miss some, so if I do or have any wrong, let me know an I will update this post.

Let's discuss:


Attempt to trade for Cassel that ultimately led to trading Cutler and gettin Orton.
Trading 1st round pick in order to draft Alphonso Smith - Then trading Smith for Gronkowski
Moving up in draft for R. Quinn
Drafting Moreno
Drafting Ayers
Trading Marshall
Trading Scheffler
Trading Hillis and two sixth round picks for B. Quinn
Drafting D. Thomas over Dez Bryant
Drafting Tebow
Other moves, good and bad, such as drafting Perish Cox

[Nomad]

For me the draft is a crap shoot......ya just never know though I would like to see the defense grow stronger and better which seems not to be the philosophy of the Denver BRONCOS over many years now!!

Glad Cutler is gone but people will find excuses for him until he retires, ......Orton has been solid, now we need to find all the pieces to this team and I believe he can lead us, you can say this about any QB though!! If we get eliminated from playoff contention, I'd like to see what Tebow has!!

The Hillis move, while I understand why it happened, was by far McD's biggest mistake especially only giving him limited chances and it's not because Hillis is doing good now but because if anybody watched him in college knew/knows he had all the potential and it shows now!!

Everything else, I can live with!!

[Tned]

Posed the question to Frank Schwab (Colorado Springs Gazette -- used to be on Broncos beat) and he said:


RT @GazetteAirForce: With just a LITTLE better moves, Denver could have had a nucleus of Tebow, Hillis, Dez, Mike Wallace, Pouncey, Orakpo, Clady, DJ, etc.

He has some interesting thoughts on this, should check out what he just posted on his Twitter page: http://www.twitter.com/GazetteAirForce

[Nomad]

Posed the question to Frank Schwab (Colorado Springs Gazette -- used to be on Broncos beat) and he said:



He has some interesting thoughts on this, should check out what he just posted on his Twitter page: http://www.twitter.com/GazetteAirForce

He forgot Ngata!!! Though i understand he was listing mostly on the offensive side of the ball!

[turftoad]

All of those moves are on offense with exception to drafting Ayers.

The Kid (McD) should have left the offense alone and made those moves on defensive players.

The "O" was just fine. With some tweeking, it would have been just fine, it did not need a rebuild. Thats all on McD.

The defense is the one that needed a rebuild and he failed to do that.

[MileHighCrew]

I was a Cutler fan and I was shocked when it all went down. (not that I approve of Cutler's actions or his lack of professionalism, but I was always excited he was the Broncos QB)
Ever since then there have been some good moves and some bad moves but I have never again felt comfortable with the moves by the team. No matter what I have always second guessed the decissions.
I think I just miss having the confidence the management is making the right choices. Not that Shanny and company always did but I had more trust.

[Northman]

Attempt to trade for Cassel that ultimately led to trading Cutler and gettin Orton.

- Dumb move to even think about it without seeing what Jay could do in his offense and then initially lying about it to Jay was a huge mistake. But in the end Cutler couldnt get over it so together both showed great immaturity.


Trading 1st round pick in order to draft Alphonso Smith - Then trading Smith for Gronkowski

- It was dumb then and still remains dumb. If anything, should of moved back in the draft and taken a guy like Sean Smith or Butler. The fact that McD had no patience with Phonz shows he really doesnt know what he's doing in terms of player evaluating.


Moving up in draft for R. Quinn

- Didnt like it then and still hate it too this day. Quinn is worthless in the grand scheme of things.


Drafting Moreno

- Dont really have a problem with Moreno. A little bit too much flash for my taste but he isnt terrible.


Drafting Ayers

- I dont hate Ayers but in that draft i definitely would of gone another route with maybe on the DL or a different LB alltogether.


Trading Marshall

- Despite my dislike for Marshall's attitude and still would of kept him. When it came to gameday the guy played and really thats all that matters as he has yet to miss more than 2 games for his off the field behavior. Thomas may end up being as good as Bmarsh but we already had a guy who produced more than a brand new rookie.


Trading Scheffler

- Have zero problem with this trade. When you start poisoning the lockerroom and basically not giving anymore effort because of the HC than you of no use to me the fan or the Broncos.


Trading Hillis and two sixth round picks for B. Quinn

- Fubar of the century. Just more fodder to show that McD is a horrible player evaluater.


Drafting D. Thomas over Dez Bryant

- Not really bothered by it. Bryant seems to be more of impact for Dallas right now but the Broncos can move the ball in the air. But if Thomas doesnt start showing something by next year i may have to rethink my position on it.


Drafting Tebow

- I was angry when we drafted Tebow. Not because i dont like him but because i felt we didnt need him and there were other areas of need that were far more important than drafting a 1st round QB. For a guy like Orton who has done nothing but been total class and worked his ass off for the team this was a major slap in the face by the HC and did nothing to help his starting QB.


Other moves, good and bad, such as drafting Perish Cox

- Perish started off slowly for me but quickly won me over so i think he will be a fine player for us. One of the few McD highlights for me.

[jhildebrand]

Ok, we're going to play the hindsight is 20/20 game. The major crticism of McDaniels right now seems to be the personnel/GM hat he's been wearing. So, let's explore that.

This should be fun!


Attempt to trade for Cassel that ultimately led to trading Cutler and gettin Orton.--This was a stroke of luck for McDaniels. The Dalai Lama has a quote, which Gary Zimmerman used in his HOF speech, "not getting what you want is a wonderful stroke of luck." Cassell, who is in a much better situation in KC, still looks terrible. It is hard to conceive how he could play better here with all of the pieces he wouldn't have. Not getting Quinn was an even bigger stroke of luck!


Trading 1st round pick in order to draft Alphonso Smith - Then trading Smith for Gronkowski--To give up a #1 for Smith when you admitted just how short handed you were going into the draft smacks of reckless incompetence. There is no other way to put it.

Furthermore, that move debunks the theory of rebuilding. Teams that are rebuilding don't throw away the following year's #1 to take a CB in the second round of the current draft. Teams do that when they are one player away.

I don't fault McD for moving Smith. He deserves credit for that. It was clear Smith wasn't going to do squat here!


Moving up in draft for R. Quinn-Again, terrible move especially knowing the limitations his war room had going into the draft! It


Drafting Moreno-I never liked this move. That doesn't mean I don't like Moreno because I do. I think he is getting better. However following the 08 season it was clear the D was the issue. You announce you are going to the 3-4 but you don't do anything in the draft to help with that transition?:confused: Don't give me ayers either. If you are going to the 34 you commit by getting a NT. BJ Raji could be had. McDaniels threw away picks to draft Quinn and Smith in this draft. I would have been much more forgiving had he thrown them away attempting to get a NT. Finally, when a guy like Maualuga is sitting there late-you take him.


Drafting Ayers-I don't mind the pick as much as I question McD's thinking. You admit you are going to a 3-4 and you take a hand in the dirt DE from a 4-3? It just didn't seem to make a lot of sense to me.

I have said this time and again. That draft could have had Orakpo at #12, Clay Matthews or Zigi Hood at #18 and Maualuga in the second. That is a solid core to begin on the D. Then you go after a Shonn Greene.


Trading Marshall--Didn't mind the move as much as I did the bullshit that was used by McDaniels and the team to justify it. Just come out and say you aren't paying the guy.


Trading Scheffler-Didn't mind this move either. I don't fault McD for it.


Trading Hillis and two sixth round picks for B. Quinn---This move has always been the worst for me! You gave away Hillis! Football History will always laugh at McD for this move. He had the benefit coming in here knowing who Hillis was and what he was capable of.

The reason I hate this move the most is McD refused to use Hillis for some unknown reason to the DETRIMENT of the team! No matter how you cut it, it is akin to treason!

The move is even harder to justify when you consider he traded up in the draft to get Brandstater! We didn't need Quinn. Brandstater looked good in his one preseason here and had a year under his belt. He would have been a decent back up. It's hard to argue this team needed a huge back up when Orton only missed one start due to injury!


Drafting D. Thomas over Dez Bryant- Character and team first guys! Bryant doesn't fit that mold. I like DT but he appears to be a glass figurine. I question more the theory that Thomas "reminds us of Marshall." It begs the question of McD's eye for talent and just how astute a talent evaluator he is.


Drafting Tebow-Spend a #1 on the guy and I don't care. Spend a 2, 3, 4 to get him knowing all the holes this team has and then refusing to give the guy a serious look when 3 of the last 4 games have been blowouts is suspect. Again this move counters any theory this team is rebuilding.


Other moves, good and bad, such as drafting Perish Cox-LOVE Perrish Cox and trading up to get Syd'Quan. Those guys will be very good DB's assuming we get some DL and LB's.

Blowing a #4 for Maroney is a JOKE! So many defended the move early on. Where are they now? :confused: Better question, where is Maroney? :confused:

For me there is no real evidence that McD is rebuilding. Rebuilding teams place a premium on picks they don't give them away. This team has thrown away the equivalent of one side of the football on dishing out picks and some of them turned out to be very high picks.

Rebuilding teams look like the Chiefs and the Packers. The Packers have 39 of 53 men on their roster straight from the last 4 drafts!

I truly believe McD when he said this team was close to winning and he was going to win. Every move he has made smacks of winning and winning now not rebuilding. The problem is his eye for talent and his interpersonal skills.

Let's not forget Jeb Putzier's parting comments! Each passing game they become more and more true.

At the end of the day, McDaniels is in way over his head. He misjudged his abilities and this team's. I like his X's and O's. The only way I would want to see another year of him here is with a GENUINE GM. Outside of that I will continue to show my displeasure to Mr. Bowlen with my wallet.

[Lancane]

Great thread Tned...

* I lost a whole lot of respect for McDaniels when he tried to trade Cutler, I had and have great hopes for Cutler, who could have been a monster in the pro-spread system. The fact that he didn't even try to work it out and see if it could be done, instigating trade talks which has been proven by two sources, and later by another source and then lied about it, not once but several times, until after Cutler was finally traded? Orton has done well, but he is not as physically gifted or as good a quarterback as Cutler could and likely will be.

* Originally I was shocked by the move, more then I was that he took Moreno instead of moving to secure Sanchez; Smith looked to have little promise for the pick, but then to trade the kid after one season and for him to trade him for a non-existent tight end that is barely two-dimensional...can you say F'n moronic, and now Smith is playing better then our starting corners!

* Quinn is another head scratching move by McDaniels, he's really shown little for the moves made to acquire him.

* I loved the drafting of Moreno, though a smart coach would have drafted Mark Sanchez, especially after the fiasco created by himself by trading a young franchise quarterback. But Moreno was a solid fit for the zone blocking scheme, but with us switching to the man-to-man, it makes this pick very questionable.

* Ayers was a solid addition, but only so in much that he really was as I said a better fit for the 4-3 defense; if anyone compares his stats, he was more effective when the defense was running the 4-3 stint instead of the 3-4. We'll see how it plays out when he returns...but this is still up in the air as to whether or not he was a good pick.

* Dumbest move yet was his poor handling of Marshall, who was promised a new contract; he's more then worth the money. Yeah, he's not a touchdown machine...but if you need thirty yards and a miracle, he can deliver. Marshall and Lloyd would have been one of the best tandems of modern times. And all because he acts childish...so did Trevor Pryce, Shannon Sharpe and Bill Romanowski, but all worth the money at the time.

* I'm not as pissed about the trading of Scheffler, but I think the circumstances were nothing more then bullshit. He spoke out against McDaniels and created a bit of a tear in loyalty...but it needed to be questioned. He may not be a Gates-esque tight end, but better then anyone else on the damn roster at the spot!

* Oh, do we really need to say anything about the trade for Quinn? He kept Orton, gave up Hillis who looks to be headed to the Pro-Bowl and two sixth round picks for a backup who's more gifted then the starter only to then draft Tim Tebow...talk about F'd in the head.

* Dez Bryant is up for Rookie of the Year, while Thomas is doing alright...the best move was the addition of Decker, who I think could be special as a slot/possession receiver. Bryant is a dominant athlete who demands respect; problem was that McDaniels was trying to fill the gap of a game breaker with the trade of Marshall...and so it's wait and see at this point, but he drafted Thomas because he felt that he was a Marshall clone.

* Tim Tebow I think has the physical abilities to be a franchise quarterback, he's smart, loves the game and is passionate as well. Problem is that he's learning within the system, instead of receiving a lot of one on one time; he needs to learn to control the ball better and how to release his throws quicker, how to plant his feet and use the momentum of his hips more then the forward motion of his body off his back foot and how to make the right reads, learning to pump fake would be a great help to him as well. I'm not sure that McDaniels or his baby brother are the right guys for the job though.

* Walton, Beadles and Cox seem to be his best draft picks to date, and that's a scary idea when you consider the amount of picks, especially first rounders that we've had the past two years. We have some promise, not much and if what we have seen on the field is any indication...well then, the future isn't bright...it's grim. All in all, I give McDaniels a solid 'F' grade so far in his tenure.

BTW...Happy Thanksgiving!

[BroncoBJ]

Good thing you said with Hindsight. Because it is all 20/20. Always hate when people get mad at who we draft a few years later because some people picked after us out performed who we picked.

I really don't have a problem in trading Jay or even Bmarsh. Even at the time, I felt like we got a lot for Jay. Much better then if we would have traded for Cassell.

The only trade I really never liked was the Hillis one because in my eyes, we got nothing for him, just a 3rd string QB. And at the time, It just seemed like we traded for a backup. Then after drafting Tebow, I knew that was a waste :lol:


I didn't have a problem with this years draft either. But last years draft confused me. Trading 2 3rd's to draft a TE who would have been there much later. And trading a 1st to get Alphonso, who I was never high on in the 1st place. I wanted him to do well, but just didn't think much of him. So all those moves confused me.


And on draft day, I was really hoping for Orakpo at 12 and maybe Moreno at 18. But I did want to draft McCoy actually out of Pitt later on. Don't have much of a problem drafting a RB, because the year before, we went thru about 8 RB's. So we needed to address that imo as well as defense.

2 drafts gone by, and no real Defensive needs addressed really. Just a bunch of secondary help. We better go almost all defense this year. I feel like our offense is set for a while.

Get some Dline, get some linebackers.

Another reason that I don't want a new coach. I would hate for someone else to come here and mess with our team even more and get rid of some offensive players and do more rebuilding and set us back a few more years.

But thats that. I still like and Support McDaniels. I don't blame everything on him. He came here needed to fix the defense and he started with the offense but now that that is set the way he wants. Time to go defense and have this be a well balanced team that hes been talking about.

We can only hope. :elefant:

[Nomad]

solid take jhildebrand and I agree with Bowlen needing to adjust the FO as far as GM and above.........though I went Christmas shopping yesterday and blew a pretty good amount on BRONCO gear for Christmas for the family!!

[OrangeHoof]

None of this happens in a vacuum. It's a chain reaction going all the way back to the first cutting of bit players and replacing them with ex-Patriots.

So, I'd have to break it down to 1) what would the Broncos' drafting be like if they had kept Cutler and Marshall and chose to fix the defense instead of rebuilding the offense or 2) accepting the deals for Cutler, Marshall and Scheffler (all of which I thought the Broncos made great trades in return) and then judging what they did from there.

So, in brief, I would have chosen the first path if I had been head coach. To not see that it was defense, not offense, that needed a major overhaul was an enormous blunder. But had I been put in the situation where I had to trade away those players, I would have focused on building the lines then trust free agency to bring in skill players short term. I would not have dealt a #1 for a #2 unless that guy had "franchise" written all over him and I would have never used so many choices to take a project like Tebow.

If I had the inclination, I would go back through the last two drafts and cherry-picked who I wanted but I've got other things I'd rather do.

[atwater27]

all of those moves are on offense with exception to drafting ayers.

The kid (mcd) should have left the offense alone and made those moves on defensive players.

The "o" was just fine. With some tweeking, it would have been just fine, it did not need a rebuild. Thats all on mcd.

The defense is the one that needed a rebuild and he failed to do that.

exactamundo!!!

[silkamilkamonico]

With the benefit of hindsight;

Attempt to trade for Cassel that ultimately led to trading Cutler and gettin Orton.

Great decision. He traded one system QB for another system QB that benefitted his system more.


Trading 1st round pick in order to draft Alphonso Smith - Then trading Smith for Gronkowski

Terrible decision to draft Smith in the second for a first. Trading him to Detroit for another garbage player is a wash.

Moving up in draft for R. Quinn

Who? Terrible decision.

Drafting Moreno

Terrible decision. If your going to use a top 15 pick on a RB, you better big getting an explosive one like Peterson or Johnson. Otherwise it should be the last position you invest in.

Drafting Ayers

Good decision. He's going to be good, IMHO.

Trading Marshall

Great decision. we now have a flourishing unit with young talent as well.

Trading Scheffler

Bad but not terrible decision. Would be nice to have another playmaking player like Scheffler, but he's one dimensional and McDaniels has found ways to prioritize the WR's.

Trading Hillis and two sixth round picks for B. Quinn

Absolutely terrible decision.

Drafting D. Thomas over Dez Bryant

Dez is gifted. So is Thomas. If Thomas is not injury prone, I say it will be a great decision with no disrespect to Bryant. Thomas is a big play explosive ginat waiting to happen.


Drafting Tebow

Utterly garbage decision, unless you like the idea of trading a 1st/2nd/3rd whatever we gave up for him, for a gimmick package player who plays on 2% of the offensive snaps a game, on average.

Just IMO.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I'm just mad that Griese threw that INT which ended TD's career. All downhill from there...

[Poet]

1 Attempt to trade for Cassel that ultimately led to trading Cutler and gettin Orton.
2 Trading 1st round pick in order to draft Alphonso Smith - Then trading Smith for Gronkowski
3 Moving up in draft for R. Quinn
4 Drafting Moreno

5 Drafting Ayers
6 Trading Marshall
7 Trading Scheffler
8 Trading Hillis and two sixth round picks for B. Quinn
9 Drafting D. Thomas over Dez Bryant
10 Drafting Tebow
11 Other moves, good and bad, such as drafting Perish Cox

(1)Cassel is a guy who could be solid and pretty good. Cutler is a guy who is pretty good and could be a Hall of Famer.

That move was an awful move to begin with unless you got Cassel, two first rounds and multiple third or fourth rounders.

In the grand scheme of that situation, I would have traded him to Chicago. You got a pretty good return in Orton and the draft picks should have catapulted you guys into a great position. Cutler turned into a whiny pansy and couldn't work it out with McDaniels.

(2)Alphonoso Smith is a situation that's troubling. On one hand, a lot of people were mad that you got him. A lot of those same people cried foul when you traded him because you gave up too soon. Smith then goes on to have a couple fluke plays (this is based totally on my opinion) and then everyone goes "OMG MCDANIELS IS TEH FAIL!!!!".

Smith then gets abused like a red-headed stepchild and now the sentiment seems to be that McDaniels atoned for his mistake.

In short, talk to me when Smith pans out either way. I think it was a bad draft choice, and by that token think that McD cut his losses in an appropriate fashion. Still, until that pans out, it's kinda a wash.

(3) Quinn doesn't impress me at all. I assume that he's going to be bad, so I'll call it a bad decision, although all that good stuff with Smith applies here.

(4) I think Moreno is going to be a good running back. You're offensive line is bad. Your good players are hurt, some guys are past their prime and honestly it doesn't matter who your head coach or scheme would be in this situation.

Moreno is unlikely to be an elite running back. I understand why you guys took him, but I don't think it was a good or bad pick. It seemed to fall into the best player available mentality. I'll call it an alright decision.

(5) I think Ayers can be really special on the football field. He's still young and needs to produce next year. Until that happens one way or another, I'll call it a good pick.

(6) Fantastic idea. He was overrated in Denver. I told many posters this, and as of right now McDaniels is right on this one. Marshall is a quitter, a cancer, a child and has already been suspended multiple times. He also has one touchdown, and only above average numbers in receptions and yards.

He was a product of Cutler over targeting him and a great offensive line that gave Cutler all day to throw the ball. In short, he's a good and not great WR. It was obvious to non homers or fanboys when you looked at his average YPC and average yards total.

As of now, the Broncos got better overall at WR. Right now Lloyd is much better than Marshall.
The Dolphins got hosed on that trade. Obviously Marshall has enough time to right that ship, but anyone who bashed that trade has to bite their tongue right now.

(7) Once again, McDaniels wins on this. Scheff is a quitter and a cancer. He's also doing jack shit in Detroit, who showed their ineptitude for extending him. He's an above average player who isn't worth the hassle.

(8). Awful move. I was shocked when this trade happened beacuse Hillis can play. He's on one hell of a hot streak and right now it looks like he's headed to a Pro Bowl selection.

(9) Dez Bryant was at worst the second or third best player in that draft class. I can't fault McD for botching this one because a lot of teams did, but damn. I was shocked that the Bengals took Gresham over Dez. Overall, bad move, but not terrible.

(10). Tim Tebow has hope for being a good QB. I'm not sure he has hope for being a great QB past a couple years. Drafting him was a great idea. Drafting him in the first round was in my opinion an awful idea. Still, we have to see how this pans out, but as of now I'll score it as a bad idea.

(11) Getting Brandon Lloyd is a good idea. I think getting that NT from SD was a pretty good idea.

[frauschieze]

Paxton over Leach was the beginning of the end.

;)

[Tned]

Paxton over Leach was the beginning of the end.

;)

I thought about adding that, but didn't want to reopen that wound. ;)

[Dzone]

the alphonso smith draft deal sticks in my craw. The 1st rd pick we gave up for him I think was the 12th overall...Imagine if we had picked up a top shelf defender there..Oh well...

In this modern day NFL, coaches are hired to WIN NOW. Go after free agents and make trades and draft studs to put a winning team on the field NOW..anything less than 8-8 is not acceptable..that is failure....

[Ravage!!!]

Attempting to trade for Cassel was the first billboard sign of his dismantling project and did nothing but hang a giant flashing, red, neon a sign that screamed "Uh oh" to ever person watching the Denver Broncos. This was a HORRIBLE move by McDaniels that is, literally, the splashing point that sent this team spinning down to the bottom via the whirlpool that he created.

This move created a hole that we are still trying to fill. Not only with Orton, but the trading of Quinn, then the MASS use of Picks to get Tebow, only THEN to extend the contract of Orton. After all the picks given up to draft a running QB/project, and picks given up to get Quinn, and the extensions given to average talent... we STILL have nothing better than an Orton as our QB.

Forget the fact that there is no way anyone can convince me this team is better off with Orton instead of Cutler. Forget the name of the QB altogether, because it doesn't matter. That other QB is as good (better) than the QB we have, and all we've done since trading that player away is spend TONS of picks in attempts to find a player to take his place. Picks that could have been used to fill the defense with young talent.

Which brings me to the Marshall trade. Yet another player that suppposedly "didn't want to be a Bronco" anymore. Seems we've heard this pick-standing mantra about several players the moment McD was hired. Trading away Marshall was another dumb move, imo. I've heard that our "WR's are fine" and "our passing game is fine." Yet, we still cant' convert third downs. HERE's an idea. If you aren't going to have top talent at QB, how about we KEEP the elite talent we have at WR? Marshall is the MOST talented WR we've had in Denver.... EVER! If we expect to have top talent, expect to pay top talent.

Then, we turn around and draft a WR that....(here it comes) reminds McD of Marshall. Ugh. THe draft is a crap shoot, and we just rolled the dice in HOPES of finding a WR like the one we just traded away. If he gets CLOSE to being as good as Marshall we'll be extremely lucky, and the odds are VERY HIGH that he's not going to be. We didn't want to give Marshall the money, but want to turn around and pay a 1st round money on a WR for a guy that "reminds" us of the one we just traded away.

The Alphonso pick was absolutely stupid from the moment it happened. Everyone here knew it. Trading him away didn't negate the drafting of the guy. We didn't get compensation back. I'll give credit for getting rid of a guy that couldn't get on the field... no matter the draft position. But no matter how good he turns out to be, nor how bad he turns out to be, it will always be yet another 1st roudn pick we squandered away.

The TE Quinn... stupid pick from the moment it happened.

Trading away Scheffler was just another move that created a hole that this team will continue to try and fill. He wasn't a cancer, he wasn't causing problems, he absolutely did NOT quit on the team, and despite some ridiculous posts..... he didn't "Refuse" to block. Scheff wasn't great, he wasn't elite, and later on down the road we WILL be able to find a talent that can replace what we lost. But its just yet ANOTHER hole that was dug when our shovel was already full of shit.

Trading away Hillis is obvious. I already know that I was one that said Hillis had starting TB talent and was livid at the lack of use in '09. Nothing more needs to be said. Watching him plow through defenders says it all.

Drafting of Moreno, at the time, excited me. I don't believe in spending top round picks on RBs...but after hearing all the hype about him, I got excited. Then I watched him play. Now I'm back in believing that we don't need to spend top picks on RBs... but we DO need to used picks on RBs so we can find a RB that has starting TB talent.

Ayers.. eh. It was the expected pick, but I think jhil did a much MUCH better job talking about the Alphonzo and Ayers picks... same with the Moreno pick. NONE should have been drafted if we were truly in this "rebuilding" mode that seems to be the newest "in vogue" excuse.

The drafting of Tebow and Dez, to me, was purely based on McD's ego more than anything else. Lets not draft the best WR, because he talked with Deion Sanders. Instead, lets draft a WR that reminds us of the one we just traded, but has better "character."

Did you hear what Aikman said tonight about Dez Bryant? When talking to defensive coordinators, who is the ONE person that the defense worries the most about on Dallas? The rookie, Dez Bryant.
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.
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[Dzone]

anyone see Alphonso Smith get schooled today on national TV...how many times was he burned for a touchdown? That missed tackle near the goal line on that guy wa s utterly pathetic. I was watching during dinner so the sound was turned off, but the camera kept zooming in on him throughout the whole game. Man, it just sucks that Mcd threw away a 1st round pick on such a crappy player. Hopefully Gronkowski has a Hall of Fame career and we forget who Phonsy was..lol

[Dzone]

Oh man, the D Thomas over Dez Bryant could start to look like Sam Bowie over Michael Jordon...
I like what i have seen of D Thomas, but lets face it, he is nO Dez Bryant, plus, he has been injury prone all year. I mean, Mcd knew D Thomas had a broken foot when he drafted him..HELLO!
I wish Mcd would stop having D Thomas return kicks...Thomas has a running style on kick returns that is going to get him killed.

[Dzone]

I'm just mad that Griese threw that INT which ended TD's career. All downhill from there...

Man, you got that right. I will never forget that play. One of the darkest moments in Bronco history. No doubt about it.

[Bosco]

Let's discuss:


Attempt to trade for Cassel that ultimately led to trading Cutler and gettin Orton.



Not how it went down, but Cutler is gone, so I like it regardless.


Trading 1st round pick in order to draft Alphonso Smith - Then trading Smith for Gronkowski Not happy about giving up on Smith so early, but Gronkowski is looking like someone we can develop so that is a plus.


Moving up in draft for R. Quinn Not crazy about it, but not pissed either. Quinn is doing exactly what we drafted him for, which is blocking.


Drafting Moreno Loved it. He is the perfect back for this offense.


Drafting Ayers Same as above. Perfect SOLB for this defense.


Trading Marshall Raise your hand if you'd like to be dealing with the headaches he is already causing in Miami. Anyone?


Trading Scheffler Mixed. Always liked him as a player, but he didn't want to be here and was starting to become a problem in the locker room, so moving him while we could still get some value out of him was a smart move.


Trading Hillis and two sixth round picks for B. Quinn Loved it at the time, and still like it now. Hard to not like flipping a struggling fullback for a guy who was a legitimate QBOTF candidate just a couple short years before. Drafting Tebow makes this pretty much moot, but it gave a nice fail safe in case we didn't get him in the draft.


Drafting D. Thomas over Dez Bryant Smart move. Bryant is a talented player, but he is not a natural fit for the X receiver role that we needed Thomas to fill, plus he has character issues.


Drafting Tebow Loved it.

[OrangeHoof]

Did you hear what Aikman said tonight about Dez Bryant? When talking to defensive coordinators, who is the ONE person that the defense worries the most about on Dallas? The rookie, Dez Bryant.
.
.
.

Meh. DC's are obsessed with the home run hitter on the other team because that's the guy who can make the DC look foolish. If you give up 80 yards to a back on 15 carries, nobody makes a big deal of that but if you give up one 80 yard play, everybody remembers. So DCs fear the guy who can make the 80-yard play - and in the Cowboys current offense, who is most likely to deliver that big play? Dez Bryant.

Personally, I'd worry about Felix Jones and Miles Austin but neither gets a lot of touches.

[robert ethan]

The Hillis move, while I understand why it happened, was by far McD's biggest mistake especially only giving him limited chances and it's not because Hillis is doing good now but because if anybody watched him in college knew/knows he had all the potential and it shows now!!

Everything else, I can live with!!

What exactly was it that Hillis did in college that made him a sure fire star? Rush for less than 1,000 yards in a 4 year career? Average less than 5 ypc?
End up the third string RB on his team?

Tebow rushed for Hillis career yardage in a single season. Plus Tim is bigger, stronger, and probably faster.

[silkamilkamonico]

The only issue with Bryant vs Thomas is Thomas looks like he could possibly have a hard time staying healthy, which sucks.

The dude is an incredibly explosive giant. I stand up every time they throw it in his general direction. I do not like the idea of him returning kicks though, and wonder if it's only because we don't have anyone else that can do it.

Big, fast, quick, good hands, good route runner, the dude takes like 3 strides to cover 10 yards and he looks like a runaway locomotive. Bryant looks like a stud, but I don't know how anyone can NOT be excited about the potential of Thomas.

[robert ethan]

Outside of the trade of the 2010 first for the 2009 second round pick, I agree with McDaniels on all the trades. Even on that exception, Alph was rated as a first round pick by most reputable scouting sites, and the rule of thumb when trading a future pick for a present one is that you give up one round worth of value. At #37 overall, Smith was not far out of the first round, and dealing a second first round pick for 2010 may have had financial reasons as well. If they kept the pick they would have had the #12 and #14 overall picks in last spring's draft. That is a lot of cash to tie up with unproven players.

[robert ethan]

The only issue with Bryant vs Thomas is Thomas looks like he could possibly have a hard time staying healthy, which sucks.

The dude is an incredibly explosive giant. I stand up every time they throw it in his general direction. I do not like the idea of him returning kicks though, and wonder if it's only because we don't have anyone else that can do it.

Big, fast, quick, good hands, good route runner, the dude takes like 3 strides to cover 10 yards and he looks like a runaway locomotive. Bryant looks like a stud, but I don't know how anyone can NOT be excited about the potential of Thomas.

I think the expectation at the draft was that Thomas would take longer to develop than Bryant. Even though DeMaryius is a bit older, he didn't have the same background in college, and he was dealing with a serious injury at the time. Josh took him because he was smarter, had a more dependable character than Bryant, and probably more upside. That is still the case.

[Bosco]

Meh. DC's are obsessed with the home run hitter on the other team because that's the guy who can make the DC look foolish. If you give up 80 yards to a back on 15 carries, nobody makes a big deal of that but if you give up one 80 yard play, everybody remembers. So DCs fear the guy who can make the 80-yard play - and in the Cowboys current offense, who is most likely to deliver that big play? Dez Bryant.

Personally, I'd worry about Felix Jones and Miles Austin but neither gets a lot of touches.

That's exactly why they'll be worrying about Demaryius soon enough. Thomas is an even bigger play threat as he is significantly faster than Bryant, making him perfect for the X receiver role in this offense. We've been able to bring Thomas along slowly because Brandon Lloyd has been having a monster season in that role, but Thomas is clearly the future there.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

What exactly was it that Hillis did in college that made him a sure fire star? Rush for less than 1,000 yards in a 4 year career? Average less than 5 ypc?
End up the third string RB on his team?

Tebow rushed for Hillis career yardage in a single season. Plus Tim is bigger, stronger, and probably faster.

He was actually the starting Fullback. Not a 3rd string TB. And those other 2 dudes are also in the NFL...Darren McFadden and Felix Jones...not too shabby.

While I agree with your premise that he was no lock to be a stud, he was a fan favorite when the deal went down. There will always be animosity there.

[atwater27]

What exactly was it that Hillis did in college that made him a sure fire star? Rush for less than 1,000 yards in a 4 year career? Average less than 5 ypc?
End up the third string RB on his team?

Tebow rushed for Hillis career yardage in a single season. Plus Tim is bigger, stronger, and probably faster.

Tired. Old. Argument.
Name one college coach that is gonna play a 240 pound white boy, regardless of his skills, when they have Darren McFadden and Felix Jones?
Thanks for playing.

[robert ethan]

Bryant has been pretty lame the past couple of games. Not only that but he's been arguing with his QB and OC over missed assignments. Hillis is slowing down as well. Moreno has rushed for more yards and better ypc the past couple weeks. I really think the perspective on these deals can change by the week.

Take a look at Alph, :eek: the guy has gone from the outhouse to the penthouse and back again since the beginning of the season. Who knows if he'll even start again for the Lions? Sheffler and Dez Bryant have each had just 1 catch in their past two games. Marshall is becoming unravelled in Miami. Cutler looks awful even though the Bears are winning.

[SoCalImport]

Back on track.
Obviously not a fan of any move that doesn't pan out (in hindsight) but the one that I never liked was the Hillis trade.

[OrangeHoof]

What exactly was it that Hillis did in college that made him a sure fire star? Rush for less than 1,000 yards in a 4 year career? Average less than 5 ypc?
End up the third string RB on his team?

Gee, when you're a running back on a roster with Darren McFadden and Felix Jones, I doubt you're going to be the focus of the offense. McFadden was showcased for the Heisman and he and Jones both wound up being first round draft choices.

That Hillis got many carries at all was remarkable but what coaches noticed was Hillis' determination to make everything he could out of every snap.

I understand he wasn't as physically gifted as the other two but any coach would have to be impressed with Hillis' determination. I'm glad he's making people notice in Cleveland, even if he slipped through McD's fingers.

[topscribe]

I'm just mad that Griese threw that INT which ended TD's career. All downhill from there...

I don't like the way Griese turned out. That' s for sure. Having said that,
I've seen so many times his getting blamed for TD's injury. That is not fair.
All QBs throw INTs, even the great Peyton Manning.

The INT was not the reason TD was injured. He was injured because he was
trying to make a play. Had he incurred that injury because Zimmerman
pancaked his man and allowed TD to get downfield, where he would get
injured, should we have held that against Zim? That is ridiculous.

Okay, enough of my rant. :focus:



*I know, I know. Now I'm going to be accused of defending Griese to the
death . . . *

-----

[chazoe60]

I don't like the way Griese turned out. That' s for sure. But I've seen so many
times his getting blamed for TD's injury. That is not fair. All QBs throw INTs,
even the great Peyton Manning.

The INT was not the reason TD was injured. He was injured because he was
trying to make a play. Had he incurred that injury because Zimmerman
pancaked his man and allowed TD to get downfield, where he would get
injured, should we have held that against Zim? That is ridiculous.

Okay, enough of my rant. :focus:



*I know, I know. Now I'm going to be accused of defending Griese to the
death . . . *

-----

You really like safe, boring QBs don't you?

[topscribe]

Tired. Old. Argument.
Name one college coach that is gonna play a 240 pound white boy, regardless of his skills, when they have Darren McFadden and Felix Jones?
Thanks for playing.

A RB can be third-string to the likes McFadden and Jones and still be good.
That's for sure.

But no, Tebow is not faster than Hillis. Hillis is slightly faster, according to
their respective 40 times, and I don't think, at their respective sizes, that the
pads would make that much difference in football speed . . .

-----

[topscribe]

You really like safe, boring QBs don't you?

See what I mean? :coffee:

-----

[weazel]

well in hindsight... pretty easy to praise or shit on anything.

Attempt to trade for Cassel that ultimately led to trading Cutler and gettin Orton.
-- well looked stupid when it happened but actually wasn't a bad move at all.

Trading 1st round pick in order to draft Alphonso Smith - Then trading Smith for Gronkowski
-- was a terrible move when it was made and then trading him for Gronkowski made it even worse

Moving up in draft for R. Quinn
-- Doesnt look good yet...

Drafting Moreno
-- Jury is still out... was there better players? there always are.

Drafting Ayers
-- Ayers is proving to be pretty good

Trading Marshall
-- Would have been good to have him but he was not irreplacable, and theres nothing wrong with our passing game.

Trading Scheffler
-- quit on the team... see you later.

Trading Hillis and two sixth round picks for B. Quinn
-- they didnt know what they had in him... neither Shanny nor McD... too bad. this is a regrettable move.

Drafting D. Thomas over Dez Bryant
-- time will tell, but both of them look good

Drafting Tebow
-- look above... time will tell, he doesnt look like the perfect thrower but the guy is a gamer

Other moves, good and bad, such as drafting Perish Cox
-- Cox is learning, I dont think it was a bad pick

[topscribe]

Good to see you, Weaz! :wave:

That's a pretty level-headed post, IMO.

-----

[Tned]

Trading Hillis and two sixth round picks for B. Quinn
-- they didnt know what they had in him... neither Shanny nor McD... too bad. this is a regrettable move.


I'm curious why you say they didn't know what they had, since he's doing now exactly what he did in '08 when he was elevated to starter due to injury. I can see saying Shanny didn't know prior to Hillis getting the call when the other RB's went down, but after that point, it's hard to understand the "they didn't know" theory.

[topscribe]

I'm curious why you say they didn't know what they had, since he's doing now exactly what he did in '08 when he was elevated to starter due to injury. I can see saying Shanny didn't know prior to Hillis getting the call when the other RB's went down, but after that point, it's hard to understand the "they didn't know" theory.

It might have been more appropriate to say they didn't know what they were(n't) getting?

-----

[robert ethan]

You can make a pretty good case that that player Chicago took with the 5th round pick in the Cutler deal has turned out to be more valuable than Jay. Johnny Knox made the Pro Bowl last year as a rookie and is playing well again this year.

[robert ethan]

A RB can be third-string to the likes McFadden and Jones and still be good.
That's for sure.

But no, Tebow is not faster than Hillis. Hillis is slightly faster, according to
their respective 40 times, and I don't think, at their respective sizes, that the
pads would make that much difference in football speed . . .

-----

Tebow did the 10 split in 1.55, and the 20 in 2.66. Hillis was 1.59 over 10, and 2.68 over 20. All Combine times. I'd say Tim is faster where it counts. Tebow also had 3 more inches of vertical.

[Bosco]

See what I mean? :coffee:

-----

In 2000 that "safe, boring QB" did give us the best performance of any post-Elway quarterback, vastly outperforming his "gunslinger" counterparts in later years. Had he not destroyed his shoulder in that Monday night game, the course of our team probably would have looked alot different.

[broncofaninfla]

Cassel/Cutler/Orton trade- I would have liked to have seen what Cutler could have doen in this system. Orton has been a good system QB but doesn't have the skills to win when things break down. Not a bad trade but was horrible the way it went down. Both Mcd and Cutler are to blame for that.

Trading 1st round pick in order to draft Alphonso Smith - Horrible trade, horrible return. The farnchise was made weaker as a result of this trade.


Moving up in draft for R. Quinn- This guy was going to be there for several picks to come, didn't make sense to move up and get him, even less now, he sucks and will most likely be off the roster by next year. Yet another move that made the team weaker when it had the resources to make the team stronger.

Drafting Moreno- I liked it at the time, hate it now. To date Moreno sucks. I've seen rookie walk ons play better. Should have drafted Orkpo.

Drafting Ayers- The jury is still out on Ayers, this could be a good pick but simply hasn't show enough to say either way yet.

Trading Marshall- I'll wait and see how DT ends up before judging this trade.

Trading Scheffler- Would like to still have him now but doesn't seem to fit this system and Mcd is clueless in how to tailor players to his system, only system to his players.

Trading Hillis and two sixth round picks for B. Quinn- this one is nothing short of pathetic. Don't even get me started.

This Drafting D. Thomas over Dez Bryant- Time will tell

Drafting Tebow- I like what little I've seen of him but time will tell.

[topscribe]

Tebow did the 10 split in 1.55, and the 20 in 2.66. Hillis was 1.59 over 10, and 2.68 over 20. All Combine times. I'd say Tim is faster where it counts. Tebow also had 3 more inches of vertical.

Sounds pretty comparable between the two. Thanks.

-----

[topscribe]

In 2000 that "safe, boring QB" did give us the best performance of any post-Elway quarterback, vastly outperforming his "gunslinger" counterparts in later years. Had he not destroyed his shoulder in that Monday night game, the course of our team probably would have looked alot different.

Plus the fact that our present "safe, boring QB" ranks #1 in the league in
plays over 40 yards.

Surely doesn't seem as if we have seen a glut of objective analyses, does it?

-----

[chazoe60]

Plus the fact that our present "safe, boring QB" ranks #1 in the league in
plays over 40 yards.

Surely doesn't seem as if we have seen a glut of objective analyses, does it?

-----

And leads the league in passes short of the first down marker. I'm objective, are you?

[topscribe]

And leads the league in passes short of the first down marker. I'm objective, are you?

No, I don't think you're objective. I think you are trying to bait.

Didn't work. Have a nice day . . . :coffee:

-----

[Lancane]

First off, Brian Griese was not at fault for what happened to Terrell Davis, to actually blame a quarterback for what happened is not only asinine, it's fundamentally ignorant!

Also, Griese was not a safe quarterback by any F'n means, he had a fair arm and a gunslinger like attitude; come on, he drank himself stupid and kicked kittens for fun...don't you know? Also, the only similarities the two share is that they played for the Broncos to eventually be replaced by better quarterbacks!

:salute:

[chazoe60]

No, I don't think you're objective. I think you are trying to bait.

Didn't work. Have a nice day . . . :coffee:

-----

I wasn't trying to bait you. I'm sorry that my opinion differs from yours. If that is all it takes to be considered baiting then I guess I was.

[Elevation inc]

Ok, we're going to play the hindsight is 20/20 game. The major crticism of McDaniels right now seems to be the personnel/GM hat he's been wearing. So, let's explore that.

Knowing what you know today, how players have played on other teams, Broncos being 5-15 in last 20, etc., how do you rate the personell moves of the last 18 months or so.

I might miss some, so if I do or have any wrong, let me know an I will update this post.

Let's discuss:


Attempt to trade for Cassel that ultimately led to trading Cutler and gettin Orton.

I think this is a 50-50 thing. I miss cutler's mobility and pocket awareness, but i dont miss his dumb turnovers or lack of leadership. I think both were tools in how they handled the whole affair though. Ultimeatly the personnel decision was bowlens final call. I do think we got a haul for cutler though.

Trading 1st round pick in order to draft Alphonso Smith - Then trading Smith for Gronkowski

This was a stupid trade from the get go. what a waste of a asset we could have had for the line or LB core. As for gronkowski for smith...I love it. Gronkowski is steadily becoming are starting TE....graham is overpaid and gronkowski has had a few games now with more snaps than graham, he also seems to have better hands and this year is blocking better than graham, he also can fill a H-back role and FB as well....he is versatile and will be a starting TE in denver for awhile. He also doenst have grahams stupid sized contract. Meanwhile Phonz has 5 Int's but also has surrendered 7 Td's in detroit so far, and apparently isnt doing so hot in many areas including many blown coverage almost every game...The original move was stupid but i like gronkowski, and i dont think phonz is better than Syd or Cox....so for me i have no issue with the seocnd part.

Drafting Moreno-

I have no probhlem here with this we needed a RB and the only DL players fitting that spot were orakpo and cushing. Cushing is a roider who projected as a 4-3 Sam and orakpo projected as a 4-3 RDE who cant cover as a rush and wasnt a fit for the 3-4. Now moreno has some issues with injury yes, but when healthy he is a fighter and workhorse. Was he worth the 12th pick perhaps not but guys we really needed either werent fits or were gone...so we gambled....moreno will always be a solid back, so while we may have taken at a spot where the 12th pick value will never match up, he is a good young piece of our run game who needs some help.

Drafting Ayers-

Loved it only player who would have been a better choice is clay matthews, but im fine with ayers.ill think he is gonna be a full time stud especially when elvis comes back to help out

Trading Marshall-

great value and the dude is a LR cancer and Crybaby

Trading Scheffler-

No issue here we dont use him, he is always hurt, and he cant block for shit which is why pettigrew will always be the starter despite tony's all pro skilsl according to some here.

Trading Hillis and two sixth round picks for B. Quinn

understand it for why he wanted quinn, but it was stupid, we could really use hillis, dumb move for sure.

Drafting D. Thomas over Dez Bryant-

Worried about his durability but im still fine with the pick over Dez, he would have more stats if lloyd wasnt going insane and he knew more of the playbook, but injuries are a factor there for sure.

Drafting Tebow-

why did we need him, oh yeah orton hadnt gone all world yet...understand it but we had to give up alot of value, essentially making MCd tied for life to him, dont liek that aspect of it.

Other moves, good and bad, such as drafting Perish Cox


JD walton/Beadles/Bruton/Mcbath/Syd/Cox/Ayers/Moreno/DT/Tebow all solid draft picks in my eyes. Goodman/haggan/mays/vikerson/hunter/Dawkins/Hill all solid Fa's....

what he needs to fix is the panic moves like Le kevin smith/Hochsetin/Maroney and staying away from over the hill DL players like bannan, Jamal, and green...he does that and has anotehr solid draft like last year and we will be looking pretty.

Problem is that seems at this point to be a pretty big IF!!!!!



IN red baby fire away...haha

[Nomad]

IN red baby fire away...haha

That's why you're one of the best here !!

[topscribe]

I wasn't trying to bait you. I'm sorry that my opinion differs from yours. If that is all it takes to be considered baiting then I guess I was.

At the very least, it was off-topic and another attempt at an Orton debate, IMO . . .

-----

[broncohead]

Ok, we're going to play the hindsight is 20/20 game. The major crticism of McDaniels right now seems to be the personnel/GM hat he's been wearing. So, let's explore that.

Knowing what you know today, how players have played on other teams, Broncos being 5-15 in last 20, etc., how do you rate the personell moves of the last 18 months or so.

I might miss some, so if I do or have any wrong, let me know an I will update this post.

Let's discuss:


Attempt to trade for Cassel that ultimately led to trading Cutler and gettin Orton.


Didn't like the trade. Cutler had a ton of potential and think he could have done really good. Orton isn't bad but doesn't win us any games.

Trading 1st round pick in order to draft Alphonso Smith - Then trading Smith for Gronkowski


Horrible move to get smith with a 1st which we could have used. We at least have someone on the field that won't hurt the team in gronkowski

Moving up in draft for R. Quinn


Another horrible pick since graham is already on the team and had no receiving abilities what so ever

Drafting Moreno


Like the pick. Think he should be doing more for a 1st round back and thought he would. Lack of production comes from missing training camp and lack of blocking on the OL. If we had decent blocking he'd be good but should also be limited on touches a game

Drafting Ayers


Didn't like it at first and wanted Orakpo who i thought would be an ideal 3-4 OLB

Trading Marshall


Was pissed he was acting like an idiot cause he has a ton of talent but we benefit from trading him

Trading Scheffler


Even if he was the 3rd TE I think we could have used him. Especially since we pass a lot.

Trading Hillis and two sixth round picks for B. Quinn


Makes no sense imo

Drafting D. Thomas over Dez Bryant


Like it didn't want another marshall attitude. Plays fast and is explosive. can't wait for next season

Drafting Tebow


Hated it as first. Pre season games showed he has the potential to throw the ball in the nfl. still iffy on this one though

Other moves, good and bad, such as drafting Perish Cox


Liked the 2010 draft as a whole. think we have a few rookies that will contribute/start

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I don't like the way Griese turned out. That' s for sure. Having said that,
I've seen so many times his getting blamed for TD's injury. That is not fair.
All QBs throw INTs, even the great Peyton Manning.

The INT was not the reason TD was injured. He was injured because he was
trying to make a play. Had he incurred that injury because Zimmerman
pancaked his man and allowed TD to get downfield, where he would get
injured, should we have held that against Zim? That is ridiculous.

Okay, enough of my rant. :focus:



*I know, I know. Now I'm going to be accused of defending Griese to the
death . . . *

-----

Yer right...it was all Lepsis' fault. :hi: