On Second Down

[LawDog]

I was not happy with the play calling last night and did some checking. Here's how we did on second downs. With the exception of the two-minute drill, they adjusted and really shut us down on 2nd down. McDaniels failed to adjust... what do you all think?

Broncos’ 2nd Down Performance v. Chargers

1st Possession
2-2 Lloyd Pass 21 yds
2-1 Moreno Run 9 yds (Redzone)

2nd Possession (7-0)
2-10 Graham Pass No Gain

3rd Possession (7-7)
2-6 Thomas Pass 12 yds
2-9 Thomas Pass incom
2-3 Lloyd Pass incom

4th Possession (7-7)
2-9 Moreno Pass 19 yds
2-9 Orton Sack -7 yds

5th Possession (7-14)
2-7 Orton Pass 4 yds (Scramble)

6th Possession (7-14)
2-9 Thomas Pass 5 yds

7th Possession (7-21) (Two-Minute)
2-6 Royal Pass 6 yds (Penalty)
2-16 Gaffney Pass 18 yds
2-10 Gaffney Pass 10 yds
2-10 Buckhalter Pass -2 yds (Penalty)
2-20 Buckhalter Pass incom

2nd Half

8th Possession (7-28)
2-8 Thomas Pass No Gain

9th Possession (7-28)
2-10 Moreno Pass -3 yds

10th Possession (7-35)
2-6 Lloyd Pass 3 yds

11th Possession (7-35)
2-9 Moreno Pass 6yds (Redzone)

12th Possession (14-35)
2-2 Moreno Pass 10 yds
2-2 Gaffney Pass 5 yds

[dogfish]

hmmm. . .

maybe ALWAYS passing on second down makes it a little easier for the defense to diagnose. . . ya think?


the playcalling last night was staler than dog breath. . .

[topscribe]

Wow. more of those were completed than I thought. 84%.

I'm not sure 2nd down is the right one to criticize the play calling, is it?

But four of them were for no gain or a loss. That bothers me a lot. Maybe
there is a play-calling problem there . . .

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[rationalfan]

I was not happy with the play calling last night and did some checking. Here's how we did on second downs. With the exception of the two-minute drill, they adjusted and really shut us down on 2nd down. McDaniels failed to adjust... what do you all think?

Broncos’ 2nd Down Performance v. Chargers

1st Possession
2-2 Lloyd Pass 21 yds
2-1 Moreno Run 9 yds (Redzone)

2nd Possession (7-0)
2-10 Graham Pass No Gain

3rd Possession (7-7)
2-6 Thomas Pass 12 yds
2-9 Thomas Pass incom
2-3 Lloyd Pass incom

4th Possession (7-7)
2-9 Moreno Pass 19 yds
2-9 Orton Sack -7 yds

5th Possession (7-14)
2-7 Orton Pass 4 yds (Scramble)

6th Possession (7-14)
2-9 Thomas Pass 5 yds

7th Possession (7-21) (Two-Minute)
2-6 Royal Pass 6 yds (Penalty)
2-16 Gaffney Pass 18 yds
2-10 Gaffney Pass 10 yds
2-10 Buckhalter Pass -2 yds (Penalty)
2-20 Buckhalter Pass incom

2nd Half

8th Possession (7-28)
2-8 Thomas Pass No Gain

9th Possession (7-28)
2-10 Moreno Pass -3 yds

10th Possession (7-35)
2-6 Lloyd Pass 3 yds

11th Possession (7-35)
2-9 Moreno Pass 6yds (Redzone)

12th Possession (14-35)
2-2 Moreno Pass 10 yds
2-2 Gaffney Pass 5 yds

nice post. i like the analysis without the subtext of whatever overall crusade so many posters are fighting for. again, nice work.

and, i think you're right. but, as i've alluded to in an earlier post, i think a lot of the problem was orton becoming very gun shy.

[EMB6903]

good thread.. Ive been thinking the exact same thing when Denver would call a play action on pretty much every 2nd down in the 1st half. If Denver doesnt have success on 1st down running the ball you can GUARENTEE that Mcdaniels isnt going to call a run on 2nd down.

Hes very good at designing certain plays but knowing when to call them is his problem. Mcdaniels has been very predictable this year.

Wish this team could get atleast 30+ rushing attempts a game.

[EMB6903]

Wow. more of those were completed than I thought. 84%.

I'm not sure 2nd down is the right one to criticize the play calling, is it?

But four of them were for no gain or a loss. That bothers me a lot. Maybe
there is a play-calling problem there . . .

-----

Shows you how misleading stats are on paper...

because last night I was going bonkers over the 2nd down play calling after that 1st drive.

[BroncoStud]

good thread.. Ive been thinking the exact same thing when Denver would call a play action on pretty much every 2nd down in the 1st half. If Denver doesnt have success on 1st down running the ball you can GUARENTEE that Mcdaniels isnt going to call a run on 2nd down.

Hes very good at designing certain plays but knowing when to call them is his problem. Mcdaniels has been very predictable this year.

Wish this team could get atleast 30+ rushing attempts a game.

Or maybe Denver should try to find a QB who doesn't need playaction or deception to be effective.

[topscribe]

Shows you how misleading stats are on paper...

because last night I was going bonkers over the 2nd down play calling after that 1st drive.

I'll have to agree. (I hope you noticed I did mention the passes for a loss or
no gain.) It was very unbalanced. And Moreno was doing a good job of
running, too. I guess McDaniels didn't notice that . . .

-----

[topscribe]

Or maybe Denver should try to find a QB who doesn't need playaction or deception to be effective.

Wow. Now he's being criticized for his play-action skills. :pound:

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[BroncoStud]

Wow. Now he's being criticized for his play-action skills. :pound:

-----

Not at all, he's being criticized for his lack of skills non-playaction.

[EMB6903]

Or maybe Denver should try to find a QB who doesn't need playaction or deception to be effective.

Im not much of a fan of Orton either but to put blame on him for that is just stupid.

As good as Mcdaniels has made Orton look this year IMO he has put Orton in some tough situations with these 3rd and longs along with the fact hes yet to stay committed to the run game.

Its not like Denver doesnt have a run game that can produce I think its just Mcdaniels just not having the patience to stick with it.

[topscribe]

Im not much of a fan of Orton either but to put blame on him for that is just stupid.

As good as Mcdaniels has made Orton look this year IMO he has put Orton in some tough situations with these 3rd and longs along with the fact hes yet to stay committed to the run game.

Its not like Denver doesnt have a run game that can produce I think its just Mcdaniels just not having the patience to stick with it.

I heard that from a coach, or a former coach, not 10 days ago. (I don't
remember whom, obviously.) He said a running game might not be working
very well at the moment, but you keep running. He said if you don't, you're
not going to win many games. Well . . .

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[EMB6903]

I heard that from a coach, or a former coach, not 10 days ago. (I don't
remember whom, obviously.) He said a running game might not be working
very well at the moment, but you keep running. He said if you don't, you're
not going to win many games. Well . . .

-----

So true... Hopefully Mcdaniels starts to realize that. That most of the time the run game is going to get short to no gain averages, but every now and then the big play happens. Along with the fact that it keeps the defense honest and opens up the passing game that much more.

anytime the Broncos are throwing the ball 40 times a game its sickening.. even if 7 was under center.

[LawDog]

Wow. more of those were completed than I thought. 84%.

I'm not sure 2nd down is the right one to criticize the play calling, is it?

But four of them were for no gain or a loss. That bothers me a lot. Maybe
there is a play-calling problem there . . .

-----

Well, to be honest, I didn't start this off as a second down critique. It seemed that we had a number of pass plays that went for little, no, or negative yardage so I decided to have a look. Once I started in, all of the plays I was thinking of had taken place on second down.

The one problem I had -- and still have -- is that on the plays for limited yardage, Orton seemed to panic and throw the short ball, even when it was clear that the receiver would have no YAC because of the multiple defenders bearing down on the receiver. A quick bubble screen works when it is just that, quick, and the receiver has a chance to make a play in space. That wasn't the case last night - Orton was ditching the ball, and most likely because the #1 and #2 checkdowns were covered. Probably because of our predictable play calling on second down.

Anywho, seems like a problem that needs fixing...

Thanks all for the responses.

[BroncoStud]

Im not much of a fan of Orton either but to put blame on him for that is just stupid.

As good as Mcdaniels has made Orton look this year IMO he has put Orton in some tough situations with these 3rd and longs along with the fact hes yet to stay committed to the run game.

Its not like Denver doesnt have a run game that can produce I think its just Mcdaniels just not having the patience to stick with it.

I don't blame Orton solely for the 3rd and long failures, but people need to realize that this offense works out of shotgun a lot, and the bubble screens and short dumps are supposed to substitute runs. It's just the way spread offenses work. Spread them out and hit short on 1st and 2nd down. I think after last night a lot of people woke up to the limitations Orton brings to the offense with his lack of athleticism, but before that he was getting credit for all the yards and taking almost no heat for the sacks and lack of conversions...

Gruden made it a point last night to illustrate how Orton is just getting a lot of garbage yardage in games, meaningless stats. Like last week with Matt Cassel, the Broncos were up 28-0 before Cassel even started moving the ball. The game was over for all intents and purposes but the statline shows Cassel had a GREAT game. Well, when it mattered he played poorly, as did the team.

Gruden was correct in his assessment.

Back to the topic, it's obvious Orton needs a lot of help to succeed, so if McDaniels is going to stick with Orton this year in hopes of winning games and saving his job, he had better find a way to run a more conventional offense and balance things out.

[gobroncsnv]

Sounds like it's unreasonable to ask for a decent oline, and even more, a consistent running attack to help out a qb... Elway couldn't get any jewelry with this combination we have right now, for sure. Wonder why we expect more out of Orton than even the best could get? (or at least, the 23rd best... indeed)